Cathay Pacific ‘to axe 6,000 staff and Dragon brand’ in bid to stay afloat

[Sam Ting Wong]

In process means you did not leave...

PS Wish you the best.Seriously. We are all in the same boat

[airdualbleedfault]

But the fact is that those situations are too rare to be of relevance.
Unless you or one of your loved ones are dead, then maybe not so much

[carolknows]

things will only STAY PUT if our govt don't negotiate with other countries on reopening!!!!! so many safe countries and you tell me we are not even considering on that? look at how Singapore is opening up green lanes, business travels, no quarantine lists! And we are still exactly the same since March? Other than allowing mainlanders in next month without quarantine.... Also did mgmt clarify why their pay cut is only 1 year when the pandemic will drag longer than that?

[hyg]

things will only STAY PUT if our govt don't negotiate with other countries on reopening!!!!! so many safe countries and you tell me we are not even considering on that? look at how Singapore is opening up green lanes, business travels, no quarantine lists! And we are still exactly the same since March? Other than allowing mainlanders in next month without quarantine.... Also did mgmt clarify why their pay cut is only 1 year when the pandemic will drag longer than that?

you do realise it's the hk communist gov that controls these negotiations right? they already said they are going to rely on business from the north, and don't give a flying crap about everywhere or anywhere else.... the secretary of finance just said that a few days ago, hk will join the 'internal circulation of China' that's proposed by President Xi in combat of the world's suppression of China....

[George Glass]

Thanks STW
Cleared up any doubt in my mind as to who I fly with after this pandemic is over.
I DO care about who is in the LHS.
You wouldn’t be a management hack by any chance would you ?

[Sam Ting Wong]

I have no doubt you care. But neither the customer nor management does, that is my point.

[veritas777]

Skilled cadet pilot: knows the limitations of the aircraft, weather, learns from both his experience and the experience of others and makes good decisions and judgements

Cowboy Pprune expat: oh boy, time to show the world how much better I really am than those useless cadets, they're the only ones who ever make mistakes, not me. Forget 100 years of history, my whole 2 anecdotes prove it for sure.

Hilarious.

[Asturias56]

STW is correct of course - worldwide accident rates have been falling steadily - principally due to more automation and more safety related kit in the cockpit.

[AndyBrown350]

Quite interesting that many, if not all of the incidents this year, was on the hands of an experienced expat captain..

[Rie]

Skilled cadet pilot: knows the limitations of the aircraft, weather, learns from both his experience and the experience of others and makes good decisions and judgements


Is your only experience sitting back watching the world pass by after you make the bunks? I bet that the highlight of the year is listening to the wonderful teachings of the CRM class? You seem to have a grudge against expats. Maybe you should sit back relax and learn something real about flying.

A skilled cadet that can rattle off every single dot point in a manual is usually the one with handling deficiencies. Just wait for your base training. It’ll be a doozy. Don’t push the nose wheel up through the floor please. I cannot stand watching planes be grounded from that sort of thing.

[UnaMas]

veritas777

I bet you wear aviators....

[veritas777]

Quite interesting that many, if not all of the incidents this year, was on the hands of an experienced expat captain..

Better not tell any of the "experienced expat captains" here, they'll tell you they never make mistakes, meanwhile no cadet can muster the almighty challenge of landing in Anchorage...

[Drc40]

Skilled cadet pilot: knows the limitations of the aircraft, weather, learns from both his experience and the experience of others and makes good decisions and judgements

Cowboy Pprune expat: oh boy, time to show the world how much better I really am than those useless cadets, they're the only ones who ever make mistakes, not me. Forget 100 years of history, my whole 2 anecdotes prove it for sure.

Hilarious.


Don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back. You’ll have a hard time preparing my cocktail in the bar. Chop Chop

[Zapp_Brannigan]

I have flown with bad pilots, CN or FO, expat and cadets.
I have flown with great pilots, expats and cadets.

What's certain is that with such a bad contract, CX will mostly be able to attract bad pilots from now on, expats or cadets.

They're not looking for the best anymore, just the cheapest.
Otherwise, they would have kept the KA guys, most of whom were great, experienced pilots.

[AllWobbly]

[QUOTE=Zapp_Brannigan;10916550]I have flown with bad pilots, CN or FO, expat and cadets.
I have flown with great pilots, expats and cadets.

What's certain is that with such a bad contract, CX will mostly be able to attract bad pilots from now on, expats or cadets.

They're not looking for the best anymore, just the cheapest.
Otherwise, they would have kept the KA guys, most of whom were great, experienced pilots.[

a lot of whom will end up here and the contracts aren’t bad even in the midst of a pandemic

Pilot Jobs - China Aviation (http://www.chinaaviation.hk/)

[swh]

Otherwise, they would have kept the KA guys, most of whom were great, experienced pilots.

I think many will be back when things pickup. I also expect Ops-A to change in line with market conditions to require FOs to have a number of PF sectors before being eligible for a command so DEC can be justified.

Other airlines in Asia that is around 500-750 PF sectors. Many CX FOs with one PF sector every 6-10 weeks will learn what the 12-14 years as a CX SO/FO time is actually worth.

it takes a lot of confidence in your ability to pack up your family and move half way around the world.

Something some of the ex KA crew are going to experience for the first time. Good luck to them.

[Asturias56]

"What's certain is that with such a bad contract, CX will mostly be able to attract bad pilots from now on, expats or cadets."

given the number of good pilot that are out of work I think your analysis is flawed - these people now have no jobs & no income - sure the terms aren't as good as CX used to have but it's a job and al ot of decent pilots will want to get back flying

[LLLQNH]

I think you are all missing the point! Cathay will not be hiring pilots for a very very long time! Be it Cadets, redundant cx pilots or recently unemployed Dragon Air pilots! If anything we will be putting more of our own on the street shortly, we are way over staffed (even after the events of the last few weeks) and it's heartbreaking. So can we stop arguing about stupid crap and wake up to the disgusting reality of what is happening.

[mngmt mole]

I have to agree. Now that the vast majority are on COS 18 (...unbelievable), the company has complete discretion to cut and slash in any method they feel fit. I would suggest that an entire 777 fleet on the ground isn't going to go unnoticed, nor the fact that based pilots (most 777) are not flying at all. I would love to be proved wrong on this, but I can sadly predict that only the first shoe has dropped. CX management have thrown caution to the winds (never mind respect for their staff) and will take full advantage of the temporary crisis to enact permanent change. Their true nature is now on full display. It is a horror to behold when you strip away any lingering affection for this once great employer.

[LLLQNH]

I think your correct! I suspect anyone who doesn't sign across to COS18 will be replaced by someone who is forced off a base in a shrinking of the bases. Then any known troublemaker will be made redundant and then the remaining based pilots will be returned to Hong Kong all on COs18, and there you have it the new slim, mean and in the future incredibly profitable Cathay Pacific. All pilots on a new cheap, Hong Kong based contract! I fear even if a base is cheaper it doesn't matter it's about the flexibility that Cos18 offers CX management, flexibility that can only come by being in Hong Kong as the employment laws of many of the base localities are too strict in comparison. COs18 along with the labor laws of Hong Kong is the envy of any airline management anywhere, the power to basically do whatever you want without significant penalty.

[swh]

given the number of good pilot that are out of work I think your analysis is flawed - these people now have no jobs & no income - sure the terms aren't as good as CX used to have but it's a job and al ot of decent pilots will want to get back flying

Cannot see immigration being able to justify any new work permits for pilots when there are literally hundreds unemployed with PR.

[Slasher1]

LLLQNH

Wow.....that seems like one helluva conspiracy.

Wonder what the home nation of the based pilot would think of it.

[Oasis]

LLLQNH

wow where did you get this knowledge?
from that place where the sun don’t shine?

[LLLQNH]

Close! We are all just postulating after all. Who :mad: knows what will happen next, odds are based on what we have seen so far it won't be pleasant, and probably not what one would expect.

[SloppyJoe]

I think everyone expected what happened, they just didn't want to believe it.

[Dragon Pacific]

Cannot see immigration being able to justify any new work permits for pilots when there are literally hundreds unemployed with PR.

Nor the renewal of permits for those who haven’t done the seven years.

[WeelardPassord]

Why not apply to the new greater bay airlines. Will be up and running by next summer.

[MENELAUS]

Yes. What could go wrong with that ? Sign me up.

[carolknows]

From Nikkei Asia:Chinese tycoon bets on Hong Kong travel rebound with new airline Greater Bay Airlines has leased three jets and is hiring up to 500 staff

HONG KONG -- Even as one Hong Kong airline disappears under the pressure of the coronavirus pandemic after 35 years of operations, another is rising to take its place.

Greater Bay Airlines, which takes its name from Chinese President Xi Jinping's pet project to integrate Hong Kong and Macao with Shenzhen, Guangzhou and other cities in Guangdong Province, has started hiring staff and preparing paperwork and aircraft to be able to take to the skies by mid-2021.

Embodying the Greater Bay Area notion, the airline is the brainchild of Chinese property tycoon Huang Chubiao, who owns Shenzhen-based carrier Donghai Airlines.

"We know it comes at a time when aviation is facing this unprecedented crisis," Stanley Hui Hong-chung, an industry veteran who is advising Huang, told Nikkei Asia in a recent interview. "(But) he is damn serious about this project."

Hui previously served as chief executive of Dragonair, the airline later renamed Cathay Dragon, which Cathay Pacific Airways shut down abruptly on Oct. 21. He also has been chief executive of the Airport Authority of Hong Kong and is currently an independent board director at Air China, which in turn is a major shareholder of both Cathay Pacific and Shenzhen Airlines.

Hui bases his optimism about the recovery of the local aviation market on his experience leading Dragonair through the SARS epidemic in 2003.

"Demand dried up and it was very frightening," he said. "(But) the reality is, I think eventually these things will be overcome," he added, expressing faith in the emergence of effective vaccines and treatment for COVID-19 by next year.

Donghai Airlines, which launched cargo flights in 2006, moved into passenger operations in 2014 and now serves 54 cities, including international routes to Naypyidaw and Darwin, Australia, according to its website.

Donghai Airlines operates 23 Boeing 737-800 aircraft, according to its website, which lists a growth target of 80 planes by 2025. © AP[/color]The entrance of Huang, also known as Bill Wong, into Hong Kong aviation is a natural extension of the earlier venture, with "a push from the policy direction of the country on Greater Bay," Hui said.

From Hui's perspective as a 45-year industry veteran, "establishing a new airline is very different" from the challenges facing industry incumbents like Cathay amid the pandemic.

"It's a very different situation compared with airlines that are so big," he said. "This [is an] unprecedented crisis, and they have to downsize... It's extremely painful for existing airlines."

In preparation for launch, Greater Bay Air has signed a lease for three secondhand Boeing 737-800 narrow-body jets, the same model that Donghai operates, and it plans to secure two more by the end of next year. It applied for a Hong Kong air operator's certificate in May.

The company aims to hire 400 to 500 staff under the recruitment drive launched in mid-October, shortly before Cathay announced it would cut 5,300 positions in Hong Kong.

Hui said some former Cathay staff have put in applications. "It would be natural that people with the right skills would be considered," he said.

The new airline intends to serve routes to China, East Asia and Southeast Asia, Hui said without specifying targets though acknowledging they are likely to overlap with some of the 46 routes that were served by Cathay Dragon.

Although Cathay Pacific Chairman Patrick Healy has said he hopes that Cathay and sister carrier Hong Kong Express can take over most of those route rights, the Hong Kong government has said that any interested carrier can apply to get them.

Huang Chubiao, left, and Stanley Hui. (Courtesy Greater Bay Airlines)[/color]"It is too early to speculate" on whether Greater Bay will vie for the rights, Hui said, indicating the company will first need a full set of operating licenses.

Hui and Huang have become close while serving together as members of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, Beijing's top advisory body.

Asked whether their personal networks will help get Greater Bay airborne, Hui said: "We all have to go through exactly the same process regardless of who you are and what you are. I would not play up anything on so-called political connections."


If someone of such credentials is betting on tourism recovery so fast that he is starting a new airline, I'm optimistic travel will pick up. People are dying to want to go travel, you just need borders to reopen. Also a new airline can prevent a swire monopoly here in the city, maybe competitive salary or benefits down the road.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Of course people will fly again at some point. But our conditions of service are dimished forever. The pay at Greater Bay Airline ( or ANY new airline) will be even worse.

[Krone]

Like any Chinese airline are going to take a hk licensed pilot. The Cx group is not looked upon favourably in the mainland. All those demonstrations tarred everyone with the same brush.
Any new airline in the bay will be absorbed into Shenzen Airlines if successful.

[controlledrest]

Better not tell any of the "experienced expat captains" here, they'll tell you they never make mistakes, meanwhile no cadet can muster the almighty challenge of landing in Anchorage...

Experienced Expat Captains will admit to making mistakes, everyone does. Problem is the "licence holders" the company has been recruiting under POS18 aren't up to the task of balancing this out.

[MENELAUS]

More than one case.

[fly1981]

Experienced Expat Captains will admit to making mistakes, everyone does. Problem is the "licence holders" the company has been recruiting under POS18 aren't up to the task of balancing this out.

that is the biggest load of rubbish I have heard. Many of the pos18 defo’s had substantial experience and are just as capable as any other pilot. I know and have worked with a few...

[carolknows]

Curious, if things are going to pick up in a year or two, why would there be a 2 yr transitional contract hoping to retain those previously on more expensive contracts. If the company wanted to get rid of more people now, shouldn't they reduce the term to 1 yr transition or a more lucrative retirement package? Isn't a given some of them who are near to retirement would exit after 2 years of decent housing and schooling?

[LLLQNH]

The real question is why did the company offer the ERS (Early retirement scheme) if they were gonna introduce COS18 for everyone and then remove LIFO? Makes you wonder if anyone at the top has any clue about what's going on!

[mngmt mole]

The ERS was to allow a few select (and informed...) individuals to cash out the best they could prior to Armageddon. What surprises me is how few took advantage of it, with all likelihood of the axe falling (as it did) shortly thereafter...?

[Stallone]

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/transport/article/3109035/cathay-pacific-chairman-says-no-more-job-cuts-government

no more cuts

[AllWobbly]

oh sure:
1. The cheques in the post
2. I love you
3. No more cuts

[controlledrest]

'We value you'

'One team'

'We have a profit share scheme'

'We care about employee engagement'

'Caring Company'

[bacou]

The real question is why did the company offer the ERS (Early retirement scheme) if they were gonna introduce COS18 for everyone and then remove LIFO? Makes you wonder if anyone at the top has any clue about what's going on!

that was well planned for KA. I believe all those who took ERS got less money than they would have had with the redundancy package.
ERS was not a saving job exercise but a saving money trick.

[AllWobbly]

controlledrest

Or go for the sympathy vote taking a 15% pay cut

Tang and Healey getting a beating in legco looking like scared school kids

[LLLQNH]

Tang and Healey getting a beating in legco looking like scared school kids

interesting how people conceive things very differently, I took them to display a completely indifferent attitude and appeared to be offended that the Lego should even dare to question them.

[AllWobbly]

I watched it on the Cantonese channel and maybe the commentary changed the flavour.
Interesting that Tang said they’ll be recruiting pilots-rather leads one to assume the whole thing was a fit up. Personally found him odd and rather soulless individual on the rare occasion I ran into him.

[Dan Winterland]

that was well planned for KA. I believe all those who took ERS got less money than they would have had with the redundancy package

You belief is incorrect. Those who took ERS were paid significantly more. And they paid less tax too.

[bacou]

I don't think your significantly more would be right: I ended up with slightly above 12 months basic on redundancy which was the maximum amount of the ERS package if you were at the right age.
And I got paid in October when if I remember well last salary was September for ERS. Not sure about the tax, Around half of my package is taxable.

That's just a detail in the big picture, what we got wasn't much after the time spent working for the airline but as they said it's the best they can do.

[Curry Lamb]

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/transport/article/3110140/cathay-pacific-axes-flights-some-worlds-busiest-cities

Well my spidey sense tells me there are more jobs cuts on the horizon, despite what the conniving muppets said last week.

With the axing of so many long haul flights, many SOs and DEFOs will find themselves in check mate.

Trust me, I’m a pilot :}

[LLLQNH]

Not sure where you have been but LIFO has gone, if I were you I would perhaps stop gloating and start hoping! We are all now equally in danger of losing the shirts off our backs, perhaps more those who have been known to stir the pot upon occasion or find themselves unfortunate enough to be on the wrong fleet! If any good comes out of this new contract perhaps it will finally be that we can all stand together in support of one another instead of all this B Scale, C Scale, Expat and Local crap. At the end of the day we are all just people trying to earn a living and support ourselves and families.

All of us could find ourselves in checkmate.

[AllWobbly]

I was thinking the same thing re unity. Of course they foresaw that and now have cos21 to play off against cos18 within the group.
Its like watching a very devious version of house of cards. I am now officially “retired” being old enough not to be held hostage by a bunch of cold blooded reptiles.
I won’t be sticking my oar in anymore. I wish you all good luck altho I have nothing good to say about the entity that CX has become.

[Rie]

With 99% begrudgingly moving to COS18 there is nothing stopping the higher ups awarding us the grand opportunity of COS21. Come the mid year flying forecast it'll be our only future.

I don't believe there was any legitimate reason to present such a contract other than greed. Especially when you are almost halving the base wage in a company with minimal medical coverage, no education allowance and bonding of position.

[Curry Lamb]

LLLQNH

Been around long enough to know that HELL will freeze over (twice!) before anyone in CXit stands in support of each other.
It’s every man, woman and child (pun intended), for him/her/itself

[mngmt mole]

In a rather perverse way, CX management are doing everyone a big favour. By stripping away any last illusion as to the value of a job in HK, they are at least allowing everyone to clear the scales from their eyes, thereby hopefully encouraging most to make a decision to leave and not waste any more good years of their lives and careers.

[Krone]

Curry Lamb


is it really worth scraping by each month, if you have a family + kid(s) then it's tough

Hardly scraping by is it on full salary for sitting on your bum.
try putting yourself in an ( ex) ka guys shoes.
Big bank loan, big school fees, 10 years in hk , established and the rug swept from under your feet.
no income. No job and no chance in this environment.
Just try for a second and be humble. Who cares what the 777 is doing.You have employment be happy . ,

[cannot]

To all the people that have lost their livelihood in these troubled times you have my deepest sympathies , I know sympathies do not provide
for your families and there are not many opportunities out there until this pandemic is no longer a factor . But I would like you all to know
that you have my admiration and respect in having to deal with Such a traumatic event in your life.