CASA investigators

[advo-cate]

Can anyone help me via PM please.

Looking for information on how a mark Haslam and John Moore of casa conduct investigations.

Are they fair??

Do they make stuff up??

[Sunfish]

Why do you ask?

[advo-cate]

Why do you ask?

Am doing a research project into how casa investigators actually do their work.
There have been rumours of "fitting up" of people for "crimes".
Any information by PM would be of assistance.

[Vag277]

https://www.casa.gov.au/publications-and-resources/publication/enforcement-manual

[Global Aviator]

A can of worms there!

Everyone will have a different opinion and there is one thread on here I am sure you have read, if not read it!

Oh I could tell a story or two, however the years snd beers have probably embellished them!

[aroa]

Advo. They can and they do BIG time.
PM me

[aroa]

I had a visit years ago from LARARD (retired ;hurt; early), CLARK (bolted) and RETSKI (still there !)
The tarmac trio were supposed to be AWIs but they demonstrated most admirably that they should not be allowed anywhere near a kids Tonka truck let alone an aeroplane.

Found by the AFP as I had alleged.to the then CEO Byron , then McComic, Carmody et al.....perjury and conspiracy. Serious crimes for you and me . CasA spent 100s of thousands of dollars in a arse covering /perverting exercise...so not for them Great place to work !
All nicely off the hook, due the excellent legal buggery by all including Dr Discrepancy aka Smart Aleck.and the gang.
Nothing has changed since then Denmark might be just rotten but CAsA is PUTRID...
Jusk ask John Quadrio, Kilin Panovich and many others

[glenb]

If your statement is correct and you are doing a research project, I strongly suggest you read through my thread running in another forum. https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/620219-glen-buckley-australian-small-business-v-casa.html

CASA has an enforcement manual that is supposed to protect participants in the industry and assure natural justice, procedural fairness, and adherence to Administrative Law.

In my case they reversed their approval on my business overnight, with no prior warning, and not on the basis of safety or any regulatory breaches. In Part 6 of the enforcement manual it attends to AOC Variations, requirements for a "Show Cause Notice (SCN) etc. All procedures completely bypassed and I lost everything.

If you read through the post in its entirety and are keen to chat, please contact me. I've got heaps on the way CASA or individuals within CASA i.e. CASA Executive Legal, International, and Regulatory Affairs conduct themselves.

An ABC investigative piece was done on the 7.30 report. It concerned a breakdown of CASA processes and procedures. Unfortunately, the CASAs target on that occasion passed away before from cancer before he could rectify the situation. In my case, it was the exact same two individuals, Mr. Aleck and Mr. Martin.

You will be able to complete a Doctorate on these fellows. Rest assured.

The same two names keep coming up again and again. The Chair of the Board will sit impotently by and let these unsafe creatures continue. This fish rots from the head first. Complicit leadership im afraid, all the way to the Chair of the Board of CASA.

[aroa]

LIKE !! In multiples, gb
The C & E Manuel is a big heavy book that the CAsA "safety" fundamntalists can beat you over the head with. So much for their fairy floss phrases ..;natural justice, due process....Just bloody piffle !!
The contents of which they blythly ingnore while they go about the business of destroying you and yr business.
And having had a win however, by whatever it takes, legal or otherwise, they just swan off and do it all, again eslewhere.
Its a sorry sign of the times when elected Governments have outsourced "governance" to unelected bureaurats who get drunk with the resultant power.
CAsA is a classic example of how to go completely ape over the myth of safety and develop into this hideous industry and job destroying monster. Sucking the blood of GA and killing the host.
We need more than just garlic and stakes.

[mostlytossas]

Have a read of the book.."From Hero to Zero" about the DC3 that ditched into Botany Bay about 25 years ago. The aircraft was clearly not airworthy yet CASA stitched up the pilot for negligence ,while the owners and maintenance company got off scott free.

[aroa]

Like Norfolk Is really. Just Pilot error Too easy nothing else to see here.
They are bloody cowards of the first order afraid of the hard yards.,,,and the truth

[advo-cate]

From the Canadian university information set:

When considering the issues of witness competence and compellability, an investigator must keep in mind that the evidence collected from certain witnesses, such as spouses, children, and persons of low mental capacity, may be subjected to these rules. Exemptions for witness testimony and exclusion of the evidence may occur at trial (R v Khan, 1990; Justice Canada, 2017).

That said, during the investigation, it remains within the purview of the investigator to assess the information and evidence collected, and to consider that evidence when forming reasonable grounds to believe and take action. When considering the nature of the information and evidence received, it is not up to the investigator to assess whether the court will accept the information or not. The investigator’s use of the information and evidence received from a spouse, a child, or a person of low mental capacity should not be discounted in forming reasonable grounds simply in anticipation of a possible exemption of the witness and exclusion of evidence by the court. If the person giving the information or evidence is assessed as being a credible witness, the investigator should consider that material and give it fair weight in forming reasonable grounds for belief.
https://pressbooks.bccampus.ca/criminalinvestigation/chapter/chapter-7-witness-management/


Looking at the casA manual, essentially the same applies.

it is not up to the investigator to assess whether the court will accept the information or not......

This begs the question as to why there are so many reports of moore and haslam changing witness statements

[Torres]

CASA may not initiate the regulations (well, at least in theory) but the DAS seems to think CASA staff have discretionary powers which I can not find substantiated in the Act or CASR's? From the CASA Enforcement Manual:

Most of the regulatory decisions CASA makes are such that conformity with authoritative policy and established procedures will be conducive to the achievement of these outcomes. Frequently, however, decision-makers will encounter situations in which the strict application of policy may not be appropriate. In such cases, striking a proper balance between the need for consistency and a corresponding need for flexibility, the responsible exercise of discretion is required.

Frequently?? I guess that is how some CASA staff manage to look after their mates and avoid any complicity in, for example, one of Australia's worst airline fatal accidents in recent years?

[advo-cate]

The mark haslam and john moore method is to have long gaps between the event and taking a statement.

Again the following from the Canadian University notes says:

Time elapsed between the event and the interview. A critical aspect of gaining the best account of events from any witness is making sure that the interview happens at the earliest opportunity. It is a practice in police investigation to make every effort to identify and interview witnesses as soon as possible.

As a simple exercise to demonstrate the importance of finding and interviewing witness quickly, take a piece of paper and to the best of your ability, write down the details of your day starting at the beginning of the day three days ago.

What did you do?
Where did you go?
Who did you see?


If you are like most people, you have some level of daily structure to your life. From that structure, perhaps you will recall you got out of bed at a usual time. Maybe you went to work or stopped at the gym or at your favourite coffee shop on the way to work.

These benchmarks of your daily routine may be easily remembered.

But, on your way to work, did you happen to see a green van with extensive damage to the front end on the street near your home?

Of course, this is a fictitious question, but this would be the kind of inconsequential daily observation information you might be asked to recall by police canvassing for witnesses to a crime.Understanding this time limited aspect of human memory, investigators need to consider how much weight they can place on the accuracy of information being recounted by a witness. If a witness is providing a remarkably accurate recollection of something being recounted from any distance in the past, it is a good idea to ask that person how they can recall what should be a mundane event with such a degree of accuracy or clarity. If they are correct, the witness will sometimes provide a memory trigger that made them notice and causes them to recall. For example, a witness may answer, “Yes, I remember that green van with all the damage to the front end because my brother has a green van just like that and I looked at the driver and saw that it wasn’t my brother. I looked at it even closer because I had never seen that van on my street before.”

So the haslam and moore technique will result in copious opportunities to "jig" the statement to what they want.

TAKE CARE if you are ever interviewed by casA.

[KRviator]

One other thing to note - you do not have the right to silence when dealing with CAsA in some areas, however any information obtained in this manner cannot be used against you criminally. But there's nothing stopping CAsA using it for Administrative action....

[aroa]

It should be a given that all people entering the aviation environment in Oz should be made aware of the fact that smiley, benign CAsA officers with an agenda/seeking brownie points ./on the hunt for a "hit"... are NOT your friends.

When approached by ANY CAsA person/s you must ensure you have the means to note down, record, video any conversation, with a witness for yourself if possible...YOU must protect yourself,
Because if you dont you may find you end up in a very torrid and expensive situation. They can cobble up a Mt Everest from a fly spot is they are are on a mission. Believe me, I know.

Years ago I had a person come into my hangar unannounced, and called out 'who owns all that crated warbird parts?
CAsA does have introduction protocols, ID name, business, permission to enter etc ,, but they are blythly ignored.. When asked who he was he gave his name as Ernest Dalgliesh from CAsA.
Since I had been abused by him and some other colleagues over other issues in the past, I impolitely requested that he vacate the premises. I hadnt gone anywhere near him, and he departed in haste.
Two weeks later I received a Summons for Threatening Commonwelth officer. !
Which shows how these people can spend their time wasting taxpayers money just to let you know who's
"holding the cat". Court.?.He never showed up.
Wth the 3 Tarmac Amigos, I even adised the C & E lady, who kept sending me penalty notices, but wouldnt tell me what they were for ie :illegal maintenance: ...but what was it ?
"No perjury this time please!. Fell on deaf ears. A story had to be made up to validate the crime,
See.. whatever it takes. The sooner we get a Fedreral ICAC the better.

[Torres]

Ernest Dalgliesh from CAsA

Well known to many. Not the sharpest spanner in the tool box. Insisted we have an approved system of Class A maintenance on a Cessna 206! :}

[Sbaker]

Is it just me or does it appear that fort fumble is becoming fort crumble...?

​​​

[septuganarian]

I had a visit years ago from LARARD (retired ;hurt; early), CLARK (bolted) and RETSKI (still there !)
The tarmac trio were supposed to be AWIs but they demonstrated most admirably that they should not be allowed anywhere near a kids Tonka truck let alone an aeroplane.

Found by the AFP as I had alleged.to the then CEO Byron , then McComic, Carmody et al.....perjury and conspiracy. Serious crimes for you and me . CasA spent 100s of thousands of dollars in a arse covering /perverting exercise...so not for them Great place to work !
All nicely off the hook, due the excellent legal buggery by all including Dr Discrepancy aka Smart Aleck.and the gang.
Nothing has changed since then Denmark might be just rotten but CAsA is PUTRID...
Jusk ask John Quadrio, Kilin Panovich and many others
Now there is are a couple of names that ring the bell very loudly. Better known locally as "The Two Ronnies" as I recall.

[Torres]

One of the two names mentioned above is very qualified in setting up individuals and operators to fit the alleged crimes! :mad:

[Clare Prop]

Just to give you an idea, I had the owner of one of the aircraft I have on line get himself into a pickle on a private flight a few years back.

A couple of days later I had a No Caller ID phone call demanding details and I told them I didn't have details and they would need to speak to the Pilot in Command. He carried on asking questions and I said that as I had no idea who was on the line (could have been our friend Geoffrey T!) and no details of the incident other than it had already been decided by ATSB that there was no airworthiness issue, he became very angry insisting that I give him information, so I hung up. As you do.
.
Next thing I know I have a letter from CASA airworthiness saying that as I was refusing to take responsibility for something one of my line pilots did he was going to come and conduct an audit of my operations with it made pretty clear that he had already decided I was not a fit and proper person to be a Chief Pilot and that the AOC should be revoked.

Just one problem there. I am not a Chief Pilot, I do not have an AOC and haven't had one since Part 61 came in; I do not have line pilots, and he had no authority, being from Airworthiness, to conduct any audits into a Part 141 operation. He got even more angry especially when I pointed out there is a difference between an Air Operators Certificate and a Registered Operator of an aircraft, he was unaware of the difference and insisted that being a Registered Operator meant that I was conducting Charter operations and had line pilots (never have, never will).

Luckily his boss is one of the good guys who I had worked with before he went to the dark side and he put this idiot back in his box very quickly and even recommended I file a formal complaint (I didn't see the point and just requested that this person never be allowed to contact me again), but it shows you just how incredibly incompetent they are and how they attempt to intimidate you. They really can't take it when you stand up to them, even when they are telling blatent and easily provable lies.

[Clinton McKenzie]

"Idiot" is one description, Clare. "Corruptly incompetent" is the description I'd use.

CASA should have in place governance processes that prevent conversations and correspondence like that starting and going anywhere. The letter sent to you was evidently not the subject of sufficient - or any - review and clearance by anyone with any understanding of the regulatory regime. Sadly, I see lots of CASA correspondence citing provisions which the inept author evidently hasn't read or understood, because the provisions cited don't actually support the crap asserted by the author.

Insufficient corporate competence and insufficient corporate integrity.

[septuganarian]

One of the two names mentioned above is very qualified in setting up individuals and operators to fit the alleged crimes! :mad:
Also referred to locally as "The Abominable Nomen"

[aroa]

Apart from the problem of their characteristics, ie bullies, etc they have the power and the taxpayers deep pockets to protect their idiotic and criminal behaviours and the perpetrators.
Since corporatisation CAsA has gone to the dogs and dragged GA down with it.
Its a national disgrace allowed by Governments of all persuasions, but who cares.
The odd Senator perhaps but it’s like shouting at the moon. No response.
What GA there is, is in spite of CAsA, not because of it.

[Torres]

Clinton McKenzie I guess this article from Australian Flying a few years ago could be an example of "Corruptly incompetent" and "Insufficient corporate competence and insufficient corporate integrity"?

18 February 1999:
An AAT-directed teleconference is scheduled for 1700, between Uzu counsel, the AAT registrar, and CASA's office of legal counsel, to determine the process of an AAT hearing on the second suspension, and to enable Uzu's counsel to advise CASA of the witnesses Uzu required to examine. Uzu counsel and the AAT were connected. CASA's phone rings out without answering.

19 February 1999:
CASA Office of Legal Counsel telephones Uzu to advise they had confused the day, thinking the teleconference was set for the following day. Uzu's lawyers indicate that there was no utility in having a telephone conference for a hearing in relation to the first suspension (which is what the telephone conference on 18 February was intended to do) because a second suspension had been issued. Uzu's lawyers indicated that Uzu would now be applying to the AAT for a stay of the second suspension for hearing in the following week.

On the same day Uzu Air provides CASA with a detailed 50-page response to the further 28 day suspension of its AOC, detailing the foregoing events and again raising the question of RPT versus charter.

24 February 1999:
UZU's lawyers request the AAT issue three subpoenas to involved CASA staff members to attend the hearing the following day. AAT declines due to inadequate time.

25 February 1999:
At a cost of about $10,000, Uzu attend AAT Sydney at 0915. At 0930, AAT Vice President's associates advise that CASA will not be attending, due to commitments in Brisbane, but CASA will not object to a telephone hearing. (CASA claims it had earlier advised Uzu and the AAT it would be unable to attend but would not object to a telephone hearing.)

However CASA's counsel objects to any evidence being tendered or any witnesses being called, "on the basis that it is inappropriate for oral evidence to be given at a stay hearing.” Deputy President Chappell rules that oral evidence was not appropriate for that reason.UZU which has now not earned any revenue for 36 days, is therefore again denied an opportunity to confront its accusers, some of whom are on "stress leave", a luxury unavailable to Uzu's general manager or his staff, some of whom have been stood down. CASA however successfully objects to the lifting of the suspension on the grounds of "Air Safety," relying on Section 9 of the Civil Aviation Act.

Names in this thread featured in that "corporate competence and insufficient corporate integrity".

[Clinton McKenzie]

Then I'd urge you to write to the National Anti-Corruption Commission, if you consider there was any corruption involved. The NACC is accepting complaints in relation to events prior to its creation.

If you consider there was any incompetence or corruption on my part: I'm happy for you to tell all, here.

For my part, I reckon the failure to fix the classification of operations mess, despite the "urgent" recommendation of Commissioner Staunton, was corporate incompetence but, in fairness to CASA, it should never have had (and shouldn't now have) the job of making those rules because that job is ultimately a political one. I wasn't in the Standards Division at the time of Uzu, so wasn't responsible for writing classification of operations rules. Nor was I in OLC at the time, so wasn't responsible for running the AAT matter.

And you'll correct me if I'm wrong: Didn't Uzu kill a plane load of passengers on Coconut Island and wasn't Uzu subsequently found, by the AAT, to have been conducting RPT without an RPT AOC? The classification of operations mess was a mess, but a mess that someone was still responsible for enforcing.

[TBM-Legend]

So who remembers that dedicated inspector Gadget, Col Klink from the 90’s?

[septuganarian]

So who remembers that dedicated inspector Gadget, Col Klink from the 90’s?
Another from the same region with a seriously bad reputation,(We were maintaining the night freight MU2 fleet at the time ,so we were absolutely in the crosshairs) However the same attitudes are not to be found in all regions. In my time is Tasmania the co operation from the VicTas region (Airworthiness)could not have been any more helpfull

[Torres]

Clinton McKenzie I'm really not interested in writing to anyone nor did I suggest you were in any way responsible.

I was merely quoting an example from Australian Flying to reinforce your comment regarding "Corruptly incompetent", an apt description of the Regulator, past, present and probably well into the future. :)

And you'll correct me if I'm wrong: Didn't Uzu kill a plane load of passengers on Coconut Island and wasn't Uzu subsequently found, by the AAT, to have been conducting RPT without an RPT AOC? The classification of operations mess was a mess, but a mess that someone was still responsible for enforcing.

Not that I recall - I don't think CASA, in its arrogance, ever turned up at the AAT often enough for the AAT to make any findings against the operator?? To the contrary, the Australian Flying article notes:

24 March 1999: In a pre-hearing teleconference between Uzu, CASA and the AAT, the Tribunal indicated that it expects CASA to restore the AOC by close of business on March 26, provided the three CASA conditions are met (which Uzu insists they already are).

In anticipation of a full AAT hearing the following week, Uzu has already applied for summonses requiring CASA personnel to be present at the hearing. This means they will almost certainly be called upon to give evidence and to face cross examination.

26 March 1999: The AAT official indicates that she will be in her office for a further half hour after close of business, and if the AOC is not restored by that time she will arrange for a "substantive" hearing on Monday 29 March.

Late on Friday afternoon CASA blinks. In a faxed message Uzu is advised its charter AOC is restored "subject to the company implementing Class A maintenance" and check and training - a unique requirement, but at least the company is back in business.

I don't believe I ever saw any competent, credible interpretation of CAR 206, other than the various interpretations made by CASA Office of Legal Council. Certainly other senior CASA staff and highly qualified legal minds did not concur with the various CASA OLC interpretations. Indeed, the CASA Darwin office issued an air charter AOC to conduct single piston engine RPT services to remote air strips in the Northern Territory. Had CASA been a competent, professional regulator it would have recognised the essential need in Australia for remote, rural scheduled air services (previously Reg 203 services) and provided the regulatory framework for their operation. It took the Uzu matter to subsequently force CASA to create the Remote Area RPT AOC, which was later awarded to Uzu.

Previously, on 31 May 1987 the CAA/CASA Regional Manager in Brisbane issued me an Air Charter AOC to conduct scheduled passenger services from Brisbane and Townsville, in turbine, pressurised aircraft, over major Queensland regional air routes, services which were subsidised by Government, advertised and available publically via a major airline reservations system.

Whilst CASA, in its crass, vindictive incompetence from 3,000 kilometers away, made a decision the Islander accident was caused by corrosion in a mixture control rod, BASI strongly objected to that CASA interpretation, finding the mixture control rod was broken by impact forces. Months later the Coroner determined the accident was the result of the AQIS Land Cruiser utility driving across the strip immediately in front of the landing aircraft, causing the aircraft to stall.

It is all water under the bridge now. My only sadness is that CASA's vindictive incompetence resulted in many good staff being out of work and in two cases, the end of very promising careers.

[aroa]

Colonel Klink aka Clinch. Gawd what apiece of ‘orrible work he was. Bully, consummate liar, nasty.
But that’s CAsA for ya and the standard of trough dwellers they employ.

[Torres]

He was amongst some an excess of like company.

Conversely, there were some really good, practical guys in DCA/CAA/CASA. Unfortunately much of their good work was undone by the excess of those very aptly described above as "Corruptly incompetent".

[Clinton McKenzie]

My apologies, Torres. The AAT matter I was thinking of was the Coral Sea Airlines decision. I think it was that decision that resulted in the invention of CHARPTER as yet another classification of operations, so that all the RPT being conducted in the Torres Strait under Charter AOCs could lawfully continue. A dog's breakfast.

I don't understand how a competently conducted baulked landing causes a stall, but as you say: It's all water under the bridge (and very sad).

[Torres]

Clinton McKenzie When a white Toyota Landcruiser fills an Islander windscreen at estimated 10 to 20 meters in front of the landing aircraft, the pilot's natural reaction is to immediately pull up. That immediately induced a stall and the aircraft went into the beach nose first. The alternate option of hitting the Landcruiser may have saved the three that died in the aircraft (two in the back survived) however the AQIS officer may not have survived. I guess it is easy to think of operational alternates in retrospect. The young woman pilot who lost her life was competent, capable, a very dedicated aviator with 2,700 hours, a Grade 1 instructor and excellent employee and a friend. I could never fault the performance and professionalism of the Uzu pilots operating in the Torres Strait. And neither could two excellent CASA FOI's from Brisbane that were sent up especially to carry out a surveillance of the Uzu operation.

CASA attempting to kill off Australian remote and rural scheduled air services and mail services (over 100 remote airports around Australia were serviced by RASS or Australia Post subsidised mail, freight and passenger air services) will always remain one of the darkest hours in CAA/CASA bleak history. Mumbles and a few others should hang their heads in shame for what they did to remote and rural air services. Had a competent legal interpretation of CAR 206 been obtained and appropriate regulatory matters put in place, it all never would have happened.

By 2000 I'd departed the aviation industry after 30 plus years and returned to my original profession based in Western Queensland for 13 years until retirement. I saw first hand what an appalling impact the un-Australian wanton destruction of RASS and Australia Post services caused to so many small rural towns.. If CASA had only tried to meet the needs of rural Australia the air service losses would never have occurred.

As the DAS said to me at that time "It should have been handled very differently". Amen to that!