Old Lockheed "Starfighter" story

[rogerk]

In the 1970’s the Luftwaffe where operating the Lockheed 104G Starfighter.

Northern Germany was a low level training area sometimes as low as 250 feet !!

A British Army helicopter was flying south with the Chaplain to the Forces as pax.

Out of nowhere two Starfighters went under the helicopter from the right.

“jesus christ !!” shouted the pilot.

A voice from back seat “He heard you”

[treadigraph]

I imagine there was a BoE to establish Hooter blame...

[Fareastdriver]

They wouldn't have gone underneath a Royal Air Force helicopter.

[charliegolf]

They wouldn't have gone underneath a Royal Air Force helicopter.

Touche FED. Nice one!:ok:

CG

[treadigraph]

A Buccaneer would...

[ORAC]

250ft?

Jag pilots got nosebleeds that high.....

[PDR1]

250ft?

Jag pilots got nosebleeds that high.....

Well the'd struggle to get higher without tanking...

PDR

[rogerk]

They wouldn't have gone underneath a Royal Air Force helicopter.e

.... they would have aborted in utter amazement !!

[Good Vibs]

Back in the 1970's I was spraying vineyards with a Bell47 helicopter on the Moselle River near Trier.
Our landing spots were located higher up on the vineyard hills overlooking the river.
During refueling, a Vulcan passed below us along the river.
Amazing...What a sight & sound...Beautiful!:ok:

[ShyTorque]

The air control orders (ACOs) for RAF helicopters in (West) Germany back in those Cold War days usually stated not above 150 feet agl. That was the whole of the country. Fixed wing had to be not below 250 feet, to give a 100 foot separation. In published low flying areas, or areas designated as exercise areas, or areas which crews were deemed to have become familiarised with, we could transit at 50 feet agl. For certain parts of a flight there was no height limit, only a ten metre MSC, minimum (lateral) separation clearance. We regularly trained to fly under wires. Minimum clearances for that were 6 metres above, 3 metres laterally from a pylon, 2 metres below (to avoid the possibility of HT arcing through the airframe).

It was quite normal to get “bounced” by fast jets looking for training targets to play with. F-104s and F-4s were relatively easy to deal with, you could spot them miles away by their trail of black exhaust smoke and even if they saw you they were in the next county by the time they had turned round to get a bead on you. G-91s were more difficult to see, difficult to lose and flown by mad Belgians! Harrier pilots usually had to be told where we were....

Glad to have been part of it, but I wouldn’t want my kids doing it!

[rifruffian]

I flew to qualify for the ppl amongst that stuff.....

[Ascend Charlie]

Doing powerline inspections in the Blue Mountains of NSW, my normal crew was a front-seat map-reader with all the poles numbered on his map, and a back-seat observer looking for faults, we were just above pole height. On this flight, the dumb fat powerline boss demanded to come along to see how it was done, but I parked him in the rear right of the B206 where he couldn't see much. After an hour or so, as we cruised along a ridge above the wires, DFB shouts, "F**k that was close!"
The rest of us, wondering what DFB was on about, asked "What was close?"
"That jet! It just missed us!"
Yeah, yeah, sure it did, us experts didn't see a thing.
Until the second F-18 scorched across the ridge in front of me.

[Krystal n chips]

I can safely say, that, gliding during the week in that era around Germany / Holland / Belgium could be a shade "invigorating " when looking down ( as well as up and around ) because not everybody was playing at low level.....

[NIREP reader]

Later in life I was driving a Beford 4 tonner to Spadeadam. Driving along those narrow roads close to the base, this Tornado with reheat engaged came screaming overhead at what seems 2 foot above the truck. I didn’t see it coming as it was from behind. I instinctively ducked and nearly crashed the newly refurbished £49k leaving the road. Funny now but at the time............

[BEagle]

My RAFC Dick 'Whizzbang' was on a dual LL trip somewhere in LFA17 (as it was then), when his ex-RAFG QFI decided to demonstrate 'real low flying'.

A few minutes later Dick came up with the immortal words "Left, 10 o'clock, high - one Landrover, no threat!"

[Shackman]

FED and Treadigraph - I can attest to the Bucc going even lower. Just about 100ft, turning steeply round a hill, looked down to see Buccaneer passing underneath with the back seater looking up - and waving two fingers!

[Firestreak]

G 91s flown by Belgians? Not the ones we used to fight from Gutersloh, they were the only thing that could live with the Lightning in a turning bout at low level. The Buccs thought they could out turn us but really, get them to roll and pull at the same time and anything could happen aerodynamically, very amusing.

[GeeRam]

G 91s flown by Belgians? Not the ones we used to fight from Gutersloh, they were the only thing that could live with the Lightning in a turning bout at low level. The Buccs thought they could out turn us but really, get them to roll and pull at the same time and anything could happen aerodynamically, very amusing.

Yep, G-91 only ever operated by the GAF, IAF and the Portuguese AF.

Interesting you say that about the G-91 and the Lightning, as on a motoring forum the other day, I was mildly amused at an off topic aviation post where by one 'spotter' was trying to tell another that the Lightning had a poor rate of turn and couldn't turn below 300kts.......I don't think either was old enough to have ever seen the beast fly, let alone anything else, but it made me laugh.

[airspace alpha]

Reminds me of the comment, IIRC, from “Roger Bacon” the esteemed Flight International contributor. The F104 in GAF service had a pretty dire safety record, so his comment was.,. “ how do you start a scrap metal business? Buy a field in Germany and wait”

[PaulH1]

Yes the Lightning turned very well. Mind you when flying low level intercepts and dogfighting, the fuel did not last very long!

[ORAC]

Yes the Lightning turned very well. Mind you when flying low level intercepts and dogfighting, the fuel did not last very long!
Took control an F6 off the end of the runway to intercept a pair of A-10s 15nm away just coasting in at Spurn.

They turned in the horizontal and tried to point their guns at him, he played the vertical whilst trying to keep out of their sights.

8-9 minutes after take-off he was chicken RTB at 10 miles finals.....

[ShyTorque]

G 91s flown by Belgians? Not the ones we used to fight from Gutersloh, they were the only thing that could live with the Lightning in a turning bout at low level. The Buccs thought they could out turn us but really, get them to roll and pull at the same time and anything could happen aerodynamically, very amusing.


Correct, brain fade on my part. They would have been flown by mad Germans. The mad Belgians flew 104s, more latterly F-16s.

[NutLoose]

We were flying with the late Dick Langworthy in a Puma of 240 OCU being used by Standards on a Jol..nav-ex to Copenhagen when his twin brother passed under the nose in a Jag.

[PaulH1]

When I was on basic training at Cranwell on the JP5a, we had 2 German instructors - both ex 104s (affectionally known as widowmakers). After Cranwell one if them went back to 104s and was killed shortly afterwards. The other survived but not sure what subsequently happened to him. He had given me a set of his Luftwaffe metal wings as a passing out gesture, which I still keep with fond memories.

[charliegolf]

My Starfighter stories run to:


A Canadian 104 pilot let me sit in his on the ground. I commented how uncomfortable it was to handle the throttle with my elbow banging on the rear bulkhead/seat. He said, “Yuh, it isn’t in that position very often”. Doh!
Returning to Gut from the south, up comes a distress beacon signal (we used to fly around -Puma- on TR+G.) The pilot, name withheld, couldn’t remember how to select the homer to get the pointer working. CG could, and it settled right on the nose. We collected the Cloggie pilot in less than 5 mins, and took him to Gutersloh. He was clearly not too badly hurt. He gave me the beacon/radio from his gear as a keepsake, but my pilot made me return it. Because he wasn’t the recipient! The Cloggie went on to be a KLM 747 captain. Stlll had a sore back at retirement!
Oh, a third... On a Bad K coolex, I asked another Canadian (knowing the answer full well) how a 104 glides. "Like a buncha keys", was his response.

CG

[gzornenplatz]

Sorry about the thread drift (complete departure), but it reminded me of a USAF sergeant watching the T31 (Cadet mk3 to the ex-ATC) on the approach at the RAFGSA centre at Bicester. "Glidin' angle of a crowbar" he opined.

[salad-dodger]

My Starfighter stories run to:

Oh, a third... On a Bad K coolex, I asked another Canadian (knowing the answer full well) how a 104 glides. "Like a buncha keys", was his response.CG

Brilliant....

[bridgets boy]

I did hear High Key in an F104 was above 20,000 ft...

Once as a UAS stude I 'helped' VASF at Bruggen pack tail chutes into 2 German F104s, while the 2 pilots caught their breath. Neither of them spring chickens, both in their grey leather jackets, looked cool as I don't know what!!!

And being German FJs, CLEAN!!!! Same happened with Tornados. They had conscripts, apparently cleaning jets was what they did.

[BEagle]

The German 'conscripts' were actually doing their national service and took immense pride in keeping their jets looking immaculate!

They also clamoured to work in the restaurant at the Luftwaffe passenger terminal at Koeln/Bonn (Wahn) as that would set them up for subsequent work in the restaurant business.

It was something of a win/win situation and worked very well!

[bridgets boy]

Understand it was National Service.

First clean fin I ever saw on a Tonka was German Navy

[MightyGem]

The air control orders (ACOs) for RAF helicopters in (West) Germany back in those Cold War days usually stated not above 150 feet agl. That was the whole of the country. Fixed wing had to be not below 250 feet, to give a 100 foot separation. In published low flying areas, or areas designated as exercise areas, or areas which crews were deemed to have become familiarised with, we could transit at 50 feet agl. For certain parts of a flight there was no height limit, only a ten metre MSC, minimum (lateral) separation clearance. We regularly trained to fly under wires. Minimum clearances for that were 6 metres above, 3 metres laterally from a pylon, 2 metres below (to avoid the possibility of HT arcing through the airframe).

It was quite normal to get “bounced” by fast jets looking for training targets to play with. F-104s and F-4s were relatively easy to deal with, you could spot them miles away by their trail of black exhaust smoke and even if they saw you they were in the next county by the time they had turned round to get a bead on you. G-91s were more difficult to see, difficult to lose and flown by mad Belgians! Harrier pilots usually had to be told where we were....

Glad to have been part of it, but I wouldn’t want my kids doing it!
Ahhh...those were the days. Good days.

[Krystal n chips]

" The German 'conscripts' were actually doing their national service and took immense pride in keeping their jets looking immaculate "

True, and the German Air Force also offered them a very attractive package to transfer to full time service if they wished. Met a few who had taken up the offer.

Did my F-104 " Cross training " at Memmingen, nice view of the Alps to wake up to every day, and I've still got the certificate, but then came the real thing when they came to Bruggen for a week. There was the "7 finger check " as part of the start up...all was going well until we got to the AoA vein which had to be moved by the engineer....alas, said vein is also heated so the CB had to be pulled by the pilot.....he didn't.... hence the delicate aroma of frying flesh and some rude words...from me. Got one of those "oops ! sorry looks " however, international relations were fully restored later with some medicinal alcohol he supplied .

[Firestreak]

IIRC, the RAF loss rate for Lightnings was greater than the Luftwaffe F 104 rate, the big difference was in the pilot survival rate, far better from the Lightning.

Once had a trip in a Danish F104. We did a PFL and again, IIRC high key was @20 thousand, low key at 9000, over the hedge speed in the region of 200kts. I believe in the real case the u/c was lowered very late in the procedure by a socking great reserve bottle which blew the gear down in an instant.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

I understand that the characteristic ‘howl’ of a Star was created at a certain throttle setting ?
am I correct
David

[ORAC]

IIRC, the RAF loss rate for Lightnings was greater than the Luftwaffe F 104 rate, the big difference was in the pilot survival rate, far better from the Lightning.
And the fact that most of them ended up in the North Sea rather than a farmer’s field.....

[John Eacott]

I understand that the characteristic ‘howl’ of a Star was created at a certain throttle setting ?
am I correct
David

In the early 70s the howl was a daily occurrence at Prestwick, where maintenance was carried out on these 1950's winged missiles. Fascinating to watch with takeoffs well over 200kts, and landings at (IIRC) about 180-190kts. The howl was heard pretty much throughout the takeoff roll.

https://youtu.be/rf7HB9o4eGU


In 1968 I flew to Nürnberg as part of a four ship Navex; in Hiller 12E windup clockwork toys! On the way we had the inevitable experience of being underflown by a gaggle of F104Gs, and then overnighted at Büchel where we looked after quite magnificently by the Luftwaffe and hosted by an F104G Squadron. As a newly minted Acting Sub-Lieutenant I was bitterly envious of one of their pilots who was about my age (21) and driving around the skies in one of those machines: we went off somewhere for a drink or three and I mislaid the bottle of Jägermeister I'd acquired. No worries, after breakfast he had the Officer's Mess bar opened and they sold me another bottle; at 07:00 :cool:

Efficient lot; happy days.

[Nick 1]

916 Starfighter (http://www.916-starfighter.de)

[PaulH1]

Or the Irish sea. An Irish friend of mine had an undercarriage anomaly which required an automatic ejection over the sea in the Lightning. As he was in the North Wales training area at the time he elected to bang out over Llanbedr heading West. While he sorted himself out he decided to engage the autopilot - and then forgot to disengage it prior to ejection. So there was this Lightning heading towards Dublin with no pilot! A couple of aircraft were scrambled to attempt to shoot it down before it reached the Irish coast, but luckily it ran out of fuel before it got there! I remember the stick that he took in the bar that night - trying to take his country folk out!

[MPN11]

Yes the Lightning turned very well. Mind you when flying low level intercepts and dogfighting, the fuel did not last very long!
"Muldoon" of the 74th was known to like to mix it with 20's Hunter FGA 9s. I once sat in 20's crew room watching miles of cine film with the pipper on Muldoon's cockpit. :O

And that's where I first heard that one should try to fight with the Lightning vertically, not horizontally.

[oldmansquipper]

We were flying with the late Dick Langworthy in a Puma of 240 OCU being used by Standards on a Jol..nav-ex to Copenhagen when his twin brother passed under the nose in a Jag.


indeed.

on ‘flag’ 85/1 I was lucky enough to get a ride in the SF C130 on the final package. I had to work for my living, though. On my knees along side the RH seat, my job was as a spotter looking out for redair with hostile intention. The rad alt installation was somewhat “experimental” with the readout fitted to the top of the cockpit coating with copious strips of black bodge tape. It was reading somewhat less than 150’ when the wings were momentarily level and I spotted a Jag go directly underneath us. I never realised Jags had such a large fin....😱

[TBM-Legend]

And the fact that most of them ended up in the North Sea rather than a farmer’s field.....



The RAAF Mirage 111 loss rate was >40% yet Spain lost no Starfighters!

[ShyTorque]

One 104 landed at Gutersloh reportedly landed at around 230 kts. It cut through the upwind barrier and ended up well beyond in a field.

[Dan Gerous]

First time I heard a Starfighter take off and heard that howl, I thought the gates of hell had opened and the hounds were coming for me.:eek:

Late 70's and stationed at Lossie, we shared a hanger with VASS and just about anything visiting was handily placed just outside for a budding David Bailey, with my Kodak Instamatic 110. One day 2 German 104's turned up and I asked the pilot for permission to take some pics. When I finished the pilot asked if I'd like some pics of me in it. Even with the canopy open, it still felt pretty cramped, and not being an aircraft trade, I kept clear of anything coloured yellow/black. Still got the pics somewhere.

[GeeRam]

Or the Irish sea. An Irish friend of mine had an undercarriage anomaly which required an automatic ejection over the sea in the Lightning. As he was in the North Wales training area at the time he elected to bang out over Llanbedr heading West. While he sorted himself out he decided to engage the autopilot - and then forgot to disengage it prior to ejection. So there was this Lightning heading towards Dublin with no pilot! A couple of aircraft were scrambled to attempt to shoot it down before it reached the Irish coast, but luckily it ran out of fuel before it got there! I remember the stick that he took in the bar that night - trying to take his country folk out!

The only RAF service loss of one in the Irish Sea I believe, as the other 3 or 4 that ended up in the Irish Sea were all being flown by EE/BAC TP's during the early development days IIRC.

[NutLoose]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyBDEG9dg-Q

[pr00ne]

Reminds me of the comment, IIRC, from “Roger Bacon” the esteemed Flight International contributor. The F104 in GAF service had a pretty dire safety record, so his comment was.,. “ how do you start a scrap metal business? Buy a field in Germany and wait”


Or in the early 70's buy a field adjacent to RAF Wildenrath and await the Harrier metal.

[ExRAFRadar]

Buccaneer's over Spade and Otterburn when Mallet Blow was active could always give us a decent "WTF was that".
As I was a real cabbage back in the days I was always angling for the dets out to Otterburn.
And of course being RAF we were on Rate 1's, unlike the PBI that had to put up tents in the field behind the pub. :ok:

[SLXOwft]

The only RAF service loss of one in the Irish Sea I believe, as the other 3 or 4 that ended up in the Irish Sea were all being flown by EE/BAC TP's during the early development days IIRC.

Including, what I believe was the first Lightning loss, XL628 (a prototype T4). John Squier ejected at an indicated m1.6 at between 30.000 and 40,000 feet. He was presumed dead when searchers failed to find him, he came ashore in his dinghy 28 hours later. I remember reading his account as a youth - probably in Roland Beaumont's Lightning Book.

[Saintsman]

Remember the Belgian Slivers display team in their F104's?

Low, fast and noisy. Always impressive.

[Fonsini]

During training (at night) for Operation Chastise a Lancaster had just settled down at the 60 foot drop height over water when the crew saw a second Lancaster pass under them.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Remember the Belgian Slivers display team in their F104's?

Low, fast and noisy. Always impressive.
I saw a Canadian quintet team at Coventry one year 4 with tip tanks and leader/solo sans tanks showed a very vigorous roll rate! I assume they transited from an to a UK base as I doubt a Star without tip tanks could get from Lahr to Coventry direct?
I think it was the same year the Meteor and Vampire (?) were in a mid air collision.
Be lucky
David

[Krystal n chips]

Would now be a good time to mention the two that flew at low level down the Mersey valley, over Stockport, heading East a few years ago.....one of those "temporarily uncertain of our position " events I recall....entertaining to watch, and listen to.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Background. RAF Leeming when it was an FTS in the late 70s/Early 80s. To the north, just off the end of the MATZ stub lay the fabled Low Flying System’s ‘Leeming/Teesside Gap’ (long before Teesside got Controlled Airspace) with its north-west/south-easterly flow arrow; from memory the Low Flying Handbook’s rules were that you could transit The Gap in the direction of the flow arrow ‘not above 1,000ft MSD’ WITHOUT calling Leeming.

(Presumably, someone thought that we Air Traffickers, with no SSR in those days, would be allowed to ignore fast moving returns on that track as ‘sort of’ 500ft separation would exist against instrument pattern traffic at 1,500ft QFE………. Yeah, right! :hmm:).

The rules also stated that if you were transitting The Gap in any direction above 1000ft MSD you had to call Leeming. It was a common occurrence for traffic to transit The Gap, against the flow arrow, at 2000ft (various pressures!). The scene is set. :ok:


Action. DM-L is sitting on Zone (aka LARS) dealing with the wonted 10/12 tracks (this is the Vale of York Area of Intense Aerial Activity remember, when the airspace designation was entirely appropriate) under various types of service when the following routine exchange took place:
“Warthog, check.”

“Two.”

“Leeming this is Warthog 12 Flight, 2 A-10s, for the Leeming Gap, 2000ft on the Barnsley, south east, north west for low-level north west of the Catterick ranges. Any Traffic?”

Me: “Warthog 12 Flight, no known traffic to affect in your area, the 16 pattern is not active, the Tyne if required is XY.AB inches. Flight Information Service. Report changing en-route.” (Radar shows 2 tracks in wide battle [blip–blip–blip–blip–blip] in the appropriate place…)

WH: “Wilco.”

A Short Time later…..
“Belgian 1234, check.”

“Tu”, “tree”, fur”

“Leemin’, zis iss Belgian Hir For 1234, 4 F-104s, 2000ft, zouth east, nor west, cross your centreline.” (Radar shows 4 fast moving tracks [blip – blip – blip – blip – blip] in the appropriate place…)

Me: “BAF 1234, the runway 16 pattern is not active. Flight Information Service. Two x A10s, same altitude, same track ahead of you for low-level to the north west. Report changing en-route."

BAF1234: “AHHH – Roooger!! Belgian Hir For 1234 – tactical, tactical – GO!” (Radar shows the 4 fast moving tracks accelerating like crazy! [blip - mega space - blip – mega space - blip – mega space - blip – mega space - blip]. :eek:
Me: Ooo- err! :ooh:
"Warthog 12 Flight, 4 x F104s behind you, same altitude, same track – now going VERY fast…” :E

WH: “Warthog 12 – stud 16, stud 16 – GO!

There then ensued a wonderous dogfight over Barnard Castle with the F-104s clearly fighting in the vertical (intermittent returns showing, with virtually no track history, but getting stronger, then diminishing…) and the A-10s fighting in the horizonal – no returns at all) as evidenced by:
“Belgian 1234, check.”

“Tu”, “tree”, fur”

“Leemin’, zis iss Belgian Hir For 1234, 4 F-104s, climbing FL240, passin’ FL 150, requesting FL 330 direct to Coltishall – tank you fur zee great intercept”
Me: (Nooooooooooo! Don’t say that!) :ugh:
“BAF 1234, continue VFR, not above FL240 initially, free call Border Radar (pass ICF) – GOODDAY.” :cool:
Then:“Warthog 12 Flight, check?”

“Two”.

“Where are you?”

“I’ma flying around a tree in the grounds of the Big Castle – ya’ll see me?”

“Yeah, gotcha – join on my left. Leeming, Warthog 12 Flight going en-route – and thanks”
Me: (Nooooooooooooo!) :\
“Warthog 12 Flt, roger, the Tyne remains XY.AB inches.”
“SUPERVISOR! Pass the logbook, please – and there’s something you’re gonna want to know!” :=

Epilogue. About 6 months later, in SATCO’s office:
“Ah, DM-L, do you know anything about 4 x F-104s around Barnard Castle a few months back? If you do, these nice gentlemen from Provost & Security Services would like a word with you………” :suspect:

“Well, Sir – it was like this, see…….” ;)

[JG54]

Would now be a good time to mention the two that flew at low level down the Mersey valley, over Stockport, heading East a few years ago.....one of those "temporarily uncertain of our position " events I recall....entertaining to watch, and listen to.

Very memorable for the then teenaged JG (May - June '82??) - track would've been NE by the time they overflew Woodley, very low and rather fast. My English teacher (Miss. Brown - swoon) told us the following day that she thought we were under Argentine attack!

Never did find out who or where from / to.

[Senior Pilot]

Downwind.Maddl-Land is hereby awarded the PPRuNe Best Dit of the Month :ok:

[MPN11]

Downwind.Maddl-Land is hereby awarded the PPRuNe Best Dit of the Month :ok:
As a fellow ATCO, I concur completely! :ok:

[ORAC]

Reminds me of the interviews after an F-3 chased an F-111 down Amble High Street at about 100ft - unfortunately at about 700kts......

One of the things I remember being taught as a young controller back at Neatishead in 1975 was to keep out of the way of the Dutch F-104s when the crossed the FIR when doing high level supersonic intercepts.

“Why should I get out of their way?”, I complained, “It’s our airspace”.

“Because they can’t”, came the reply.

They didn’t so much turn, as do cross-countries - as I recall the 180 turning circle was about 38nm.

[NutLoose]

I remember the two F104's at the Odiham families day in the late 70's, they were lower than anything I'd seen before at a show, really low and the first one past almost right in front of the crowd line, the wingman was over head the crowd line...lots of screaming and crying kids I seem to remember.

[SLXOwft]

Would now be a good time to mention the two that flew at low level down the Mersey valley, over Stockport, heading East a few years ago.....one of those "temporarily uncertain of our position " events I recall....entertaining to watch, and listen to.

KnC - As a former local, I would love to have more details.

KG54 - Keeping low to maintain separation from those on approach to EGCC's rwy 24 (as it then was) perhaps?:eek: Which reminds me of the story a controller told me of when (sometime in the '70s) he realised a pilot was mistaking the lights of the M56 for those of the 24 approach, obviously a crew also being "temporarily uncertain of our position ". I recall the local WX being a contributory factor.

My recollections are seeing displays by 'Hooters' as a teenager. These being alternating intense and unmistakeable noise and waiting for them to complete their turns. I always thought the poor turn rate and stall characteristics would count against it in combat, if the opponent had time to react. Its mixed perfomance in actual combat seems to bear it out.

[MPN11]

I always thought the poor turn rate and stall characteristics would count against it in combat, if the opponent had time to reactAn old mate who flew Javelins told me they used to have fun in RAFG with 104s. High level (relatively) they would wait for the intercepting 104 to get close, and then turn hard. Much giggles as they watched the 104 try to follow and then ... depart! I doubt the 104 was designed to be a close-in dogfighter - just a high-speed mx transporter!

As Bader claimed, you can’t lose with a big wing. 😉

[charliegolf]

An old mate who flew Javelins told me they used to have fun in RAFG with 104s. High level (relatively) they would wait for the intercepting 104 to get close, and then turn hard. Much giggles as they watched the 104 try to follow and then ... depart! I doubt the 104 was designed to be a close-in dogfighter - just a high-speed mx transporter!

As Bader claimed, you can’t lose with a big wing. 😉

Canberra pilots used to do that with lightnings, so one told me.

CG

[Tiger G]

Buccaneer's over Spade and Otterburn when Mallet Blow was active could always give us a decent "WTF was that".
As I was a real cabbage back in the days I was always angling for the dets out to Otterburn.
And of course being RAF we were on Rate 1's, unlike the PBI that had to put up tents in the field behind the pub. :ok:

Especially when they drop a practice bomb on the range control caravan when cleared in hot !! Fortunately, on this occasion, his aim was out by about 20 metres :ooh:

I often wondered what would happen to the pilot after a slight misjudgement like that ?? :confused:

[lsh]

"The Vikings"!
F104 display pair.

Near the end of the display, one does a gear down, slow-ish pass.
His mate "gooses" him at high speed and pulls up in front.
Fantastic stunt, as we were all watching the low & slow guy.

Happy Days in RAFG.

lsh
:E

[GeeRam]

"The Vikings"!
F104 display pair.

Near the end of the display, one does a gear down, slow-ish pass.
His mate "gooses" him at high speed and pulls up in front.
Fantastic stunt, as we were all watching the low & slow guy.


On their last appearance at RIAT in the mid 80's the fast past in that sequence just nudged the forbidden zone resulting in a loud enough 'crack' to announce his passing :E

[Big Pistons Forever]

I once worked with an RCAF 104 pilot who was the reason Cold Lake had to make a rule about not going supersonic after takeoff.......

[twochai]

Exactly when could you go supersonic then?

[Big Pistons Forever]

It was a really cold day and a light airplane. He kept it low and in burner and managed to go supersonic before the airfield boundary. The boom generated a lot of complaints which were all re-directed to the Squadron CO, who was none too pleased.........

[Ascend Charlie]

Zero to 600kt in 2 miles?

Using V squared = U squared + 2aS, where V = 600, U=0 and S=2, the acceleration is 90,000 somethings per second per second.

My head hurts.

[sycamore]

a==1.3 g.....

[Krystal n chips]

KnC - As a former local, I would love to have more details.

KG54 - Keeping low to maintain separation from those on approach to EGCC's rwy 24 (as it then was) perhaps?:eek: Which reminds me of the story a controller told me of when (sometime in the '70s) he realised a pilot was mistaking the lights of the M56 for those of the 24 approach, obviously a crew also being "temporarily uncertain of our position ". I recall the local WX being a contributory factor.

.

I wish I could help, and like you and KG54 knew more about their sightseeing trip....I was actually enjoying the enchanting panoramic views of the A6 ( otherwise known as road works /. traffic jam ) on the slight hill coming into Stockport from Manchester, when the first appeared from the right, as did the noise shortly thereafter and subsequently the second.

[Fortissimo]

On their last appearance at RIAT in the mid 80's the fast past in that sequence just nudged the forbidden zone resulting in a loud enough 'crack' to announce his passing :E

Oh yes, 1985 I believe... I remember seeing marquee roofs billowing about, but the funniest sight was the Victor nav who was so surprised he tipped his strawberries and cream into his own lap. Made a bit of a mess of his flying suit, looked like he had spent too long watching the dancers at the aircrew beer tent!

I think that was the weekend the RAF medical team handed out more than 4000 Brufen to visiting aircrew. It was BYO the next year.

[rigpiggy]

I remember the two F104's at the Odiham families day in the late 70's, they were lower than anything I'd seen before at a show, really low and the first one past almost right in front of the crowd line, the wingman was over head the crowd line...lots of screaming and crying kids I seem to remember.
not srictly a starfighter story. My daughter was having a princess party(6) no boys allowed. Myself and #1 son went to Abbotsford air show. My 3 yo safely on my shoulders was startled by a 450+ knot pass from behind, he lifted me off the ground by my hair.😀😵

[JG54]

I wish I could help, and like you and JG54 knew more about their sightseeing trip....I was actually enjoying the enchanting panoramic views of the A6 ( otherwise known as road works /. traffic jam ) on the slight hill coming into Stockport from Manchester, when the first appeared from the right, as did the noise shortly thereafter and subsequently the second.

The heading was consistent, then - more than possible they'd overflown EGCC from extrapolation, possibly as an airfield mis-ident but for where?

Memory would put them at ~ 400 ft & 400 kts from my vantage point - plus or minus for teenage exaggeration! Someone, somewhere must know more...

[Krystal n chips]

Another one..Gnat vs 104 "Tiger Meet " Aug 75......Gnat got a bit too "up close and personal " with the 104. ....the Gnat lost this meeting as the crinkled / corrugated nose testified

[Good Vibs]

For those unlucky not to have seen & heard them.
The "Good Old Day's"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GcfZXqPJf4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQasfk3LcTw

[ShyTorque]

The 104’s “spirited” departure from Gutersloh after the 1982 NATO Tiger Meet was spectacular to say the least. I stood on the ops block upper balcony to watch, alongside was a certain forum member who was in those days an ATC assistant (later a LHR controller and now an ATCO trainer, I believe). We were adjacent to the tower, it was part of the same building.

The aircraft was in reheat and was level with the roof. It came in at 90 degrees to the runway. Total separation from us paled Tom Cruise’s flyby in Top Gun into insignificance. I estimated that it was about twenty feet above us and very, very close to supersonic. I’m surprised the tower windows stayed in place.

[Tashengurt]

not srictly a starfighter story. My daughter was having a princess party(6) no boys allowed. Myself and #1 son went to Abbotsford air show. My 3 yo safely on my shoulders was startled by a 450+ knot pass from behind, he lifted me off the ground by my hair.😀😵

I took my lads to Sunderland airshow. Youngest needed the loo so we nipped into a portaloo....just as the Typhoon arrived, presumably in reheat. I couldn't see, I was too busy trying not to get p*ssed on by one very startled boy!

[treadigraph]

I was walking along the road near the 03 end at Biggin Hill during the airshow many years ago - ahead of me a woman had stopped to peer at something through the fence when a Tornado arrived from behind her, very low and at quite some speed,only marginally behind its own noise. I was most impressed by the height she attained from a standing start; she nearly head-butted the cause of her shock.

[Doctor Cruces]

Used to watch them depart PWK when I was at Scatcc. Their vertical departure was spectacular to say the least. Controlling them was entertaining too as they checked in on handover over Ailsa Craig at 33000 feet.

[taxydual]

A pair of Italian F-104's came to Lossie ('83ish). Landed in stream. No 1 straight down the centreline and popped his chute. No 2 followed, straight down the centreline and popped his chute, which promptly vomited itself onto the runway. No 2 is now heading for No 1's jetpipe at a vast rate of knots. A bit of jibber jabber in Italian over the Local Frequency, led to No 1, very deftly, swerving to starboard as No 2 zoomed past with quite an impressive trail of white smoke from his brake shoes. Oh, and the only word we interpreted, in Local, after the jibber jabber, was "Bastardo".

[gzornenplatz]

We (19 Squadron at Wildenrath) had a visit from Dutch 104 Squadron that didn't end so happily. A pairs landing in a crosswind revealed a weakness in the104's braking system. If the weight was off one mainwheel (starboard, I think), there was no braking. This was not generally known until the number two was beheaded by the leader's trailing edge.

[Suzeman]

The heading was consistent, then - more than possible they'd overflown EGCC from extrapolation, possibly as an airfield mis-ident but for where?

Memory would put them at ~ 400 ft & 400 kts from my vantage point - plus or minus for teenage exaggeration! Someone, somewhere must know more...

IIRC - it's along time ago - they were en-route low level from Lossie to Upper Heyford when they got lost. Seem to remember they were W German AF. Didn't half cause some consternation as they came almost OTT EGCC. :eek: Saw the smoke coming from my office in the tower...

[MAINJAFAD]

We (19 Squadron at Wildenrath) had a visit from Dutch 104 Squadron that didn't end so happily. A pairs landing in a crosswind revealed a weakness in the104's braking system. If the weight was off one mainwheel (starboard, I think), there was no braking. This was not generally known until the number two was beheaded by the leader's trailing edge.

November 1978, covered here.

https://www.i-f-s.nl/squadron-exchanges-1978/

Lowest flying aircraft I ever saw in the UK, One of the large AD exercises in Sector South which resulted in J/T MainJafad manning a Sanger on the Bloodhound Site at West Raynham in either 1986 or 1987. Cue a number of Luftwaffe Alpha Jets doing high speed, very low level attacks on the Station (Had to pull up to get over buildings kind of low).

[Green Flash]

My first trip to Gioia and the IAF were having an AD exercise on one of our down days. Two Jags volunteered to add something different. The usual Macchis from Lecce stooged in from the East at 1000', straight and level and unsurprisingly were clobbered by the resident Spada battery. The Jags departed NE, got down behind the escarpment, worked around to the south and headed back in. I remember their wakes rattling through the olive groves on the edge of the airfield and the plume of dust as they wired the station HQ and nipped off around the back of the town. Apparently the Spada battery complained and the Jags said that if it had been for real they would have been much lower :E

[EvaDestruction]

In the 1970’s the Luftwaffe where operating the Lockheed 104G Starfighter.

Northern Germany was a low level training area sometimes as low as 250 feet !!

A British Army helicopter was flying south with the Chaplain to the Forces as pax.

Out of nowhere two Starfighters went under the helicopter from the right.

“jesus christ !!” shouted the pilot.

A voice from back seat “He heard you”

A good story with the right touch of humor! :)

I was once doing photo work in a Super Cub on the eastern edge of R2901 at Avon Park FL at about 200 feet. Totally consumed with the photo taking, the photographer and I both saw an F-4 with 2 occupants fly underneath us. Totally cool.

[cattletruck]

I recall as a kid on the roof of my uncle's house watching an F104 doing some training at the nearby local military base. We managed to get the pilot's attention and he came up and made a slow speed turn around us. A few minutes later we were buzzed by two prop driven trainers flying in formation just 10ft above us. Happy days.

I remain in awe of the F104 pocket rocket, the view of the one parked out the back of the Athens military museum when arriving by bus from the main airport to my hotel never fails to impress me.

[SLXOwft]

IIRC - it's along time ago - they were en-route low level from Lossie to Upper Heyford when they got lost. Seem to remember they were W German AF. Didn't half cause some consternation as they came almost OTT EGCC. :eek: Saw the smoke coming from my office in the tower...

Thanks, Suzeman, knocks all my theories on the head, I assume there were a number of coffeeless interviews. Scary to think what could have happened even though EGCC was much quieter back then - wasn't PPL training still going on?

It's almost as if they took off and headed 170ish directly for UH and drifted right of track.:)

[Mogwi]

In the late 70's, I landed my jumping bean at a lovely little gliding club in Germany, for an air display. The downhill RVL on the 750m strip was interesting (!) but I managed to get the hood open and my mask off before I ran off the end of the strip onto the grass. I taxied back to the clubhouse and was marshalled in to park next to an ....F104!!

My question "Wie in Himmel kommt das hier?" was answered with a broad grin, "On a large lorry!"

'Twas a fine weekend!

Mog

[Haraka]

Mog's tale reminds me of a Harrier RIC P.I. being cross examined during an in field Taceval on our interoperability with other recce platforms in NATO,

" For example , what sort of report would be produced if a Recce Starfighter lobbed in?"


" I would guess an accident report"

[biscuit74]

Many moons ago I recall standing on he deck of a jack-up rig in the Heligoland Bight and watching German Navy Starfighters fly past at low level and very high speed., They were typically below deck level and making quite close passes to us. With near flat calm weather and early morning mists I suspect they were using us a visual height reference. Impressive to see, with a hint of wake sometimes in the water behind them.

[John Eacott]

Wandering around Italy by motorbike and we just had to stop and admire this roadside tribute; at Gaggio Montano, Emilia-Romagna :ok:

But what an indication of how the past that we lived with is now corroding out in all weathers :sad:



https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_4959_eb3d4707bcc984b384d92d813330f9ad019ee576.jpg


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x2000/img_4954_fc68a1cd6d31748472c92a066cfdc518727b8eda.jpg

Meanwhile back at RNAS Culdrose Airday 1975 :cool:


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x640/f104gs01_d6b30233d36739898732de63858536fd74ae9e0a.jpg

[Sandy Parts]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x600/starfightercompressed_4acc3a734db8a1f9a5a6d5c67bf10a3888d467 72.jpg
but where is this one? (petrolheads will know...)

[FantomZorbin]

On a visit to Villafranca many years ago I saw a compound on the airfield with at least one F-104 residing in it in the vertical with nose down, just like a scrap heap!

[OmegaV6]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x600/starfightercompressed_4acc3a734db8a1f9a5a6d5c67bf10a3888d467 72.jpg
but where is this one? (petrolheads will know...)


Isn't that somewhere near Maranello ??? Seem to recall seeing it .....

[John Eacott]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x600/starfightercompressed_4acc3a734db8a1f9a5a6d5c67bf10a3888d467 72.jpg
but where is this one? (petrolheads will know...)

At the Fiorano circuit: it’s an F-104 gifted to Enzo to commemorate the F-104 that ‘ran’ against a Ferrari F1 car in 1981 (?) but lost by a second!

[Sandy Parts]

Well done John and close second place to OmegaV6. Part of the momentoes collected by Ferrari and displayed at their private test track 'Fiorano' within Maranello town.
Back in the 90s we used to see the Italian Air Force taxiing the F104s around at Sigonella at warp speed. We were moving a lot slower in our hemp heavy and they used to dive ahead of us on the narrow taxiways, always with a friendly wave though! (not sure what wave back our flight deck gave them :})

[Krystal n chips]

IIRC - it's along time ago - they were en-route low level from Lossie to Upper Heyford when they got lost. Seem to remember they were W German AF. Didn't half cause some consternation as they came almost OTT EGCC. :eek: Saw the smoke coming from my office in the tower...

Ah. my apologies here. Only just read your post. Thanks for the explanation which has intrigued many of us who saw them at the time.

[Big Pistons Forever]

A great example of a plane from the good old days when sex was safe and airplanes were dangerous

[JG54]

IIRC - it's along time ago - they were en-route low level from Lossie to Upper Heyford when they got lost. Seem to remember they were W German AF. Didn't half cause some consternation as they came almost OTT EGCC. :eek: Saw the smoke coming from my office in the tower...

Many (belated) thanks and yes, it's an awfully long time ago :eek:

[hum]

The 104’s “spirited” departure from Gutersloh after the 1982 NATO Tiger Meet was spectacular to say the least.
I believe I may have been there that day & seen it from a different angle.. I had just taken off on a dual arrival check in a Harrier when Batty in the back suddenly exclaimed ‘I HAVE CONTROL’ .. the aircraft lurched forward alarmingly and I saw (and heard) a very large 104’s Burning reheat pass a few feet over my head, an image I shall never forget..
Fortunately JB in the back had far more SA than I and suspected something was up - he spotted the 104 in the mirror just as he went past the tower.. The 104 guy never saw us 😳

A couple of years I remember looking at a 104 in a hangar at Gutersloh that had had a mid-air with a Jaguar (I think part of the tail ended up in a swimming pool at Warendorf) his pitot was bent right back, little other damage - I recall the Jag guy (Who I subsequently worked on another Jag mid-air BOI with) did not even Realise what had happened until he landed at Bruggen..
Happy days :)

[Mogwi]

Hail Hum!

As you say, happy days.

I was duty pilot in the tower at Güt for the departure of 4 X Italian 104s on one occasion. # 4 dropped back badly on take-off and they disappeared into the murk as a bit of a gaggle. Shortly afterwards, we were treated to a flypast by 3 with no sign of #4. I advised the local controller to look out for a "waz" and sure enough, he pitched up heading straight for the tower - but he had the gear down and was going really slowly.

It transpired that he had had a burner failure on take-off, followed by a hydraulic failure, followed by a radio failure! He brought it back for a v high speed, flapless landing, which he achieved nicely on the westerly runway. Unfortunately, the drag 'chute dropped out on the runway, when he selected it and his hook hung up about 2ft above the concrete, so he missed the upwind wire.

At this stage, the local assistant raised the barrier (not advised for a 104) and the top wire caught the arrestor hook as it passed over it at c 100 kts. The Starfighter came to rest just before the river Emms, in the grass, with a collapsed nose-leg and a very white Italian pilot, requesting a change of underwear!

Mog

[roger4]

My Father did his National Service in the RAF and joined the UK Atomic Energy Authority at Harwell in (I think) 1955. He tells the story that a USAF F-104 landed at Harwell, having got lost looking for Upper Heyford. I think this must have been in the early 1960s.

The WW2 Harwell runway was rather short, and after various debates on whether to dismantle the Starfighter and truck it out, or try to fly it out, the decision was made to do the latter. A crack USAF test pilot was brought in, and JATO bottles were attached to help get it off the ground. Unfortunately the JATOs on one side failed to ignite, the aircraft veered sharply off the runway and ended up nose down in the deep foundations being dug for a new and substantial building. He claims that all the staff on site came out to watch the events unfold. Not long after the Harwell runway was covered in soil a foot or so deep and grassed over, to stop anyone else landing there by mistake.

Does anyone know if this account is in anyway true? I can't find any reference to it on-line.

[typerated]

Not a 104 but this is the one I think... http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/ChiltonCatalog/echo/harwell.1946-1996.special.anniversary.edition.part1.pdf. Page 12.

[lsh]

I believe I may have been there that day & seen it from a different angle.. I had just taken off on a dual arrival check in a Harrier when Batty in the back suddenly exclaimed ‘I HAVE CONTROL’ .. the aircraft lurched forward alarmingly and I saw (and heard) a very large 104’s Burning reheat pass a few feet over my head, an image I shall never forget..
Fortunately JB in the back had far more SA than I and suspected something was up - he spotted the 104 in the mirror just as he went past the tower.. The 104 guy never saw us 😳

A couple of years I remember looking at a 104 in a hangar at Gutersloh that had had a mid-air with a Jaguar (I think part of the tail ended up in a swimming pool at Warendorf) his pitot was bent right back, little other damage - I recall the Jag guy (Who I subsequently worked on another Jag mid-air BOI with) did not even Realise what had happened until he landed at Bruggen..
Happy days :)

I believe that it was an F104 that collided with a two seat Harrier in the mid-80's?
Bruce Cogram was killed, the pilot under check ejected and survived.

lsh

[ShyTorque]

I believe I may have been there that day & seen it from a different angle.. I had just taken off on a dual arrival check in a Harrier when Batty in the back suddenly exclaimed ‘I HAVE CONTROL’ .. the aircraft lurched forward alarmingly and I saw (and heard) a very large 104’s Burning reheat pass a few feet over my head, an image I shall never forget..
Fortunately JB in the back had far more SA than I and suspected something was up - he spotted the 104 in the mirror just as he went past the tower.. The 104 guy never saw us 😳

A couple of years I remember looking at a 104 in a hangar at Gutersloh that had had a mid-air with a Jaguar (I think part of the tail ended up in a swimming pool at Warendorf) his pitot was bent right back, little other damage - I recall the Jag guy (Who I subsequently worked on another Jag mid-air BOI with) did not even Realise what had happened until he landed at Bruggen..
Happy days :)

Hum, I think the 104 involved in that mid air was the one I previously mentioned which landed at 230 kts....he had lost his airspeed readout due to having no functional pitot after spearing the Jaguar through one of its tailerons, on pulling up from low level.

[tonytales]

As a Maintenance Instructor for Eastern Air Lines at JFK, I got a pleasant duty to run some DC-8-63 training in SJU. They put me up in a pleasant hotel that ovewrloked a runway. Nice balcony on the room. I was pretty amazed when, with huge noise, a F-104 Starfighter went down the runway followed by another. The mechanics I was training told me the Puerto Rican Air National Guard (PRANG) was flying them and providing air defense against any possible Cuban adventures. A bit later I saw them back landing on the same runway trailing a drag chute. It must have been in 1968 that I saw them.
Now many years later, having outlived Eastern Air Lines and living in Ft Collins in Colorado, I had an opportunity to visit the Wings over the Rockies Air Museum in Denver. They have an interesting collection including a pedestal mounted B-52 outside. Inside the old hangar from Lowry AFB, they have a Douglas B-18 Bolo, a North American B-1 Lancer (I believe a prototype) and, pointy nose and thin sharp winged F-104. A volunteer was working on her and I engaged him in some conversation. I mentioned that the only time I had ever seen an F-104 outside of in a museum was in Puerto Rico. Turned out that was one of the PRANG (unfortunate combination that) aircraft. Clean, polished and dentless, she still looks to be one of the wickedest fighters ever. I have read however that they didn't do well in the Pakistan - India dustup years back. Suspect that the turning radius and limited fuel load may have contributed. Any truth in that?

[hunterboy]

Not my story, but as told to me ; Lighting pilot flying over West Germany in the 70’s (can’t remember whether doing a CAP or just a random Nav-Ex) when ATC call him up and ask if he’s interested in some trade. My mate says of course and is given a steer for an unidentified low level fast mover down by the E. Germán border somewhere. “Brilliant‘ says matey and catches up with the traffic. Turns out to be a lost GAF Starfighter shooting along at a high rate of knots in the wrong direction. How does my mate know he was lost? Easy.....the Starfighter pilot has his map unfolded and is turning and folding it trying to orientate himself. Matey decides to sit on his wing and wait and see how long it takes the Starfighter pilot to notice him. Seconds pass before the pilot glances to the side and glimpses the Lightning sat on his wing ....cue a seriously hard G pull-up by the poor guy as he reacts instinctively and pulls to the heavens!.

[roger4]

Many thanks typerated - that's the one. My father will enjoy reading the attachment you kindly supplied. And apologies for hijacking a F-104 thread with a T-33 story.

[BEagle]

Some 42 years ago, we were flying a Vulcan over the Med. This was one of the last SOLAR FLARE exercises from Luqa, but our jets were so old and fatigued that we spent much of the exercise doing boring Maritime Radar Reconaissance (aka 'boat spotting') at around 40000ft.

The SOP was that the Co-pilot (me) and Nav Rad would work on 'conference intercom', with the other 3 on normal intercom. As I was dutifully noting down the details from the Nav Rad, 'something' shot past us on the right, with a dazzling white contrail. Not more than about a (Vulcan) wingspan clearance, at a guess and undoubtedly supersonic.

It was obvious (at least to me) that it was an Italian F-104. Back to normal intercom and "TFFT", exclaimed the Captain (whose recce skills were woeful),"I thought it was a Libyan Flogger!". TR+G didn't seem to be working, so after dialling up 243.0, we were able to talk to a somewhat bemused Italian controller "My boys, they say you looka very nice. They try very 'ard to catcha you" We advised him that his 'boys' also looked very nice, but we were on our way (eventually) back to Malta. "OK, OK, ciao!" and back to normal. It seems that the Nav Plot had taken us quite a long way south, then back in what looked like a direct track towards Italy, hence they'd scrambled Q!!

[rigpiggy]

I remember the two F104's at the Odiham families day in the late 70's, they were lower than anything I'd seen before at a show, really low and the first one past almost right in front of the crowd line, the wingman was over head the crowd line...lots of screaming and crying kids I seem to remember.

Had my oldest boy on my shoulder in Abbotsford when a few USN F5E's came in over back of the crowd at around 450 kts. Kid pulled my hair so hard I was 2" taller, and my feet came off the ground