Comet 4 and Caravelle - common pilot type rating ?

[Mooncrest]

Obviously this question is purely academic but would a common type rating have been probable, if not impossible? My basic point of view regards the Caravelle as essentially a twin-engine, short-body Comet with the same fuselage cross-section and, most importantly, a virtually identical cockpit. At the very least a pilot would need to have to undertaken a differences course, bearing in mind the different number of engines, engine mounting and tail designs giving differing handling characteristics.

Disclaimer: I am not a pilot and I don't design cockpits or whole aeroplanes so I'd particularly welcome more professional observations than I can provide! Thankyou.

[DaveReidUK]

Highly improbable, I'd have said.

[Jhieminga]

Nigh impossible. Apart from the different systems, different engines and different flying characteristics, it would also need a level of cooperation between UK and French authorities that was not there (yet). Also, keep in mind that it was the front fuselage that was similar, so structure and glazing, not the insides.

[TURIN]

My understanding is that the co-operation was there, the stub wing for the BAC 1-11 engines came from Sud-Aviation. I was told it was the same design as the Caravelle.

[Jhieminga]

That's co-operation between two manufacturers, which is also what led to the similarity between the front end of the Caravelle and the Comet. What I meant was co-operation between the certifying authorities of the UK and France, as you would need the French CAA signing off on a type rating for an aircraft that had not been type certificated by them, and may not have been flown by them. Vice versa for the UK providing a Caravelle rating on a UK licence based on a Comet rating. It's an interesting idea, but from a flight characteristics and cockpit layout perspective, as well as from a legal perspective, it was not possible in those days.

[Mooncrest]

I'm inclined to agree. Although the 757 and 767 have different systems their cockpits are virtually identical and are the same design of aircraft, albeit different fuselage widths. Plus they have the advantage of coming from the same manufacturer and a significant customer base for both types, two things that didn't apply to either the Comet or Caravelle.

[RetiredBA/BY]

What would be the point. Did any airline fly both Comets and Caravelles?

[Mooncrest]

What would be the point. Did any airline fly both Comets and Caravelles?

Not that I'm aware of. As I said in my opening post, it's purely academic anyway and I only asked on the basis of similar cockpits. Today, it might be a different story.

[Allan Lupton]

Let's just accept that "common type ratings" were pretty well unknown to manufacturers such as de Havilland and Sud Aviation which were breaking new ground with their jet-propelled airliners. Sud's use of the Comet nose must have been a shortcut to save "re-inventing the wheel" and, as pointed out above, was structure and glazing but not contents.

[Kiltrash]

Air France flew Comets and Caravelles?

[scotbill]

AF didn't fly the Comet but one of the saddest sights ! remember seeing in the old Rhodes airport (the one surrounded by hills) was an old AF poster showing a Comet in AF colours.

Alas - what might have been!

[fltplanner]

Air France did fly the Comet - Comet 1 between 26th August 1953 and 12th January 1954, but they didn't fly the Comet 4

[WB627]

OK so how did Boeing get away with it for the 757/767?

[dixi188]

OK so how did Boeing get away with it for the 757/767?
'cos they designed them that way from the start.
Someone told me the best way to tell them apart from the inside was to look at the step into the flight deck. IIRC step down in a 757 and step up in a 767.

[rog747]

No airlines it seems, except MEA & AEROLINEAS ARGENTINAS flew both Comets and Caravelles at the same time in the 1960s'.

Air France had Comet 1's in service, along with UAT (TAI/UTA) until the grounding in 1954.
They then both operated new Caravelles when first introduced about 5 or so years later.

The Caravelle cockpit and RR Avon engines were part of the Comet 4 legacy.


Old RHO airport was Maritsa behind the hills....

[Ivan aromer]

'cos they designed them that way from the start.
Someone told me the best way to tell them apart from the inside was to look at the step into the flight deck. IIRC step down in a 757 and step up in a 767.
Yep thats right.
Only when you sat down did the suble differences become apparant. ( different flap settings and fuel dump on the 76 IIRC)

[RetiredBA/BY]

'cos they designed them that way from the start.
Someone told me the best way to tell them apart from the inside was to look at the step into the flight deck. IIRC step down in a 757 and step up in a 767.
Correct! If I recall there was only about two switches different between the 5 and the 6 but operating procedures were virtually identical Except flare height. After the 50 feet call wait 2 seconds before starting to flare the 76 and three second for a 75 !

That said the bogie angle on the 76 was opposite the 75 which was a doddle to land smoothly, on the 76 you took what you got !


Both quite brilliant aircraft, delightful to fly and operate, but never did manage to fly a 76 and 75 on the same day!

[The AvgasDinosaur]

What would be the point. Did any airline fly both Comets and Caravelles?
MEA certainly did
David

[Mill Worker]

I am fairly sure the Comet and Caravelle cockpit (that is the physical structure) were exactly the same. As for a common type rating... back then no chance but if they were flying today, probably. Look at the 330/350, they have some similarities but they are not anything like the same aircraft but a DIY quick course and some regulatory smoke and mirrors you can fly both under a common type rating.

[DHfan]

I'm absolutely certain that I've read somewhere that the Comet nose design was licenced by Sud-Aviation from de Havilland for the Caravelle so I would expect it to be identical. I've always assumed it was external, and presumably structure, rather than anything more.

[kenparry]

TL: Avons in the later Comets (Ghosts early on); Avons in the early Caravelles. The later ones had the P & W JT8D.

[Jhieminga]

I had to dig up these photos but here is a comparison of the insides:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x667/comet_hatfield_20160521_870f01254cb24c66690a2afa0dc5e8e99471 7731.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x778/caravelle_aviodrome_20040216_6988bf2357c88049d15f6010243a48a 9a0014190.jpg

[WHBM]

What would be the point. Did any airline fly both Comets and Caravelles?
A good number. But in those times, being qualified on two types was not uncommon.
I'm absolutely certain that I've read somewhere that the Comet nose design was licenced by Sud-Aviation from de Havilland for the Caravelle so I would expect it to be identical. I've always assumed it was external, and presumably structure, rather than anything more.More than that, the nose/front end was actually designed by De Havilland at Hatfield, and for the first few Caravelles was actually built there and shipped over.

With the De Havilland nose/flight deck, Rolls-Royce engines, and a string of systems subassemblies from the UK, who in the 1950s were second only to the USA for aerospace sourcing, the Caravelle had a lot of UK value in it.

[thegypsy]

I used to fly the B707 and B737 albeit on different days in the late 70's as an F/O and later as Captain both B757/B767 as did lots of my colleagues.

Shortest flight on B707 was Kuwait to Abadan or Bahrain to Dharhan

[Carlos Arganaraz]

Not that I'm aware of. As I said in my opening post, it's purely academic anyway and I only asked on the basis of similar cockpits. Today, it might be a different story.
Yes, Aerolíneas Argentinas.

[WHBM]

The scurrilous rumour is of course that De Havilland cut the noses off the pioneer Comet 1s awaiting breaking up after their withdrawal, and sent them over to Sud ! :)

[DHfan]

The Comet 4 at Duxford is one of the two that took part in the simultaneous W-E and E-W flights. Not that it's important, but I can never remember which one.
For some years it remained in Dan-Air colours, as they'd presented it to Duxford, but as a historic aircraft in its' own right, I think it's justified that it's now preserved in BOAC colours.

[oldpax]

I remember boarding an Air Inter Caravelle at Marseille and found my seat facing the rear and the seats in front of me facing forward! Maybe for the escape hatch?

[bean]

The Comet 4 at Duxford is one of the two that took part in the simultaneous W-E and E-W flights. Not that it's important, but I can never remember which one.
For some years it remained in Dan-Air colours, as they'd presented it to Duxford, but as a historic aircraft in its' own right, I think it's justified that it's now preserved in BOAC colours.
It was the west to east one

[VeeEffAre]

Biggest challenge to a common type rating was surely that the Comet was 3 crew flight deck, while Caravelle was pilot and co-pilot only. Also, Comet worked up to RR Avons (from DH Ghost). Caravelle started with RR Avon and moved on to P&W...

[WHBM]

Caravelle was 3-crew. Flight engineer sat behind the co-pilot, panel on sidewall, same as Comet. Systems were not automated enough then to dispense with them.

[spekesoftly]

Out of curiosity, has there ever been a common pilot type rating that covered both a two and four engined jet aircraft?

[Jhieminga]

A330/A340 was not a common type rating IIRC but one could be acquired based on the other by going through a differences course only.

[WHBM]

Sterling of Denmark used Caravelles on Transatlantic charters (yes, Copenhagen to San Francisco etc, with multiple stops) from the late 1960s. Given the navigation technology of the time, they must surely have needed a navigator, making a 4-crew setup.

UTA used them in the South Pacific on similar lengthy overwater runs, such as Tahiti to Noumea, presumably the same applied.

[DHfan]

My knowledge of airliners is extremely limited, and even that's probably generous, but I'm surprised that overwater flights of those sorts of distances were allowed with only two engines in those days.

[WHBM]

It was only the FAA, and thus US-reg aircraft, that had statutory limitations (60 minutes single engine speed) on 2-engine overwater flights prior to ETOPS etc. Sterling were the first, and for a long time only, user of Caravelles across the Atlantic, refuelling at Keflavik and Gander (and, if going to San Francisco, refuelling in of all places Omaha in Nebraska); they also ran them extensively from Copenhagen to Thailand, but that doesn't have so much overwater apart from across the Bay of Bengal. I think they also did holiday flights to Natal in Brasil, refuelling in The Canaries.

Some detail :

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=442559#p5942923

[Jhieminga]

My knowledge of airliners is extremely limited, and even that's probably generous, but I'm surprised that overwater flights of those sorts of distances were allowed with only two engines in those days.
The piston twins were the ones that needed to be kept close to land in case of engine problems. Even though they had only two engines, the early jet engines were still a big step up in reliability, so a Caravelle could easily fly longer overwater sectors. Out of 64 hull-loss accidents, 27 incurred fatalities and of those, only three accidents were due to an engine problem, either ascertained or suspected.
See: https://aviation-safety.net/database/types/Sud-Aviation-SE-210-Caravelle/losses

[rog747]

Yes Sterling AW flew their 109 seat Super Caravelles, and the newer larger 131-140 seat 12's all over the place basically Worldwide.
Colombo Goa India Maldives HKG and Bangkok
USA & Canada
Aswan Abu Simbel Mombasa
Brazil

Sadly their 2 fatal Super Caravelle accidents both occurred on the way home from excotic holidays - One, CFIT, was lost on let down in poor Wx to Dubai, and the other during take off at Teheran when a failure of the right main landing gear occurred.

[WHBM]

We did a considerable Caravelle thread a few years ago here, for those interested

https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/588039-uk-caravelle.html

[rog747]

1960
Harry Chandler of The Travel Club of Upminster claimed the first Jet holiday charter from the UK, operating an Air France Caravelle weekly charter London Airport to Basel –
The firm still carried the slogan, Jet to the Sun! until their demise.

Basel was convenient for Lakes & Mountains, plus to connect with his European Coach Tours start point.
As it was so popular, more Air France Caravelles from London Airport to Corsica and Nice were also chartered by the Travel Club Upminster.
Harry Chandler had seen that AF had available aircraft at Weekends (which were generally quiet days for AF back then) and thus managed to obtain rock bottom seat prices for the weekly or fortnightly charter series.
I believe the aircraft were sitting at LAP anyway.

This beat the Comet (and the 1-11) by many years in flying UK package holiday makers abroad by charter Jet, although BEA Comets were flying scheduled flights to some sun spots, it was the BEA Vanguard that tended to do most of those runs, both scheduled and charter.

British United 1965, and British Eagle in 1966, were first with the BAC 1-11 on IT charters, and then Dan Air with their first 2 Comets from 1966.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/948x1390/1964_go_magazine_advertisement_for_holidays_with_the_travel_ club_of_ax9p0p_c4570b10388bba25582613b34aedd58904f06ac2.jpg
1960's advert