Germany to buy F-18 Super Hornet And reduce Typhoon orders

[NutLoose]

Due to replacement for the Tornado being delayed.

https://eurasiantimes.com/nato-commitment-forces-germany-to-acquire-f-18-super-hornets-reduce-number-of-typhoons/

[FinelyChopped]

Flug Revue reported this back in April.
https://www.flugrevue.de/militaer/vorschlag-des-verteidigungsministeriums-tornado-wird-durch-f-18-und-eurofighter-ersetzt/
(Hope your German is up to scratch)

[c52]

And the Flug Revue article begins with "As expected..."

[EricsLad]

The next question is - will the Germans have to keep the F18 or another US aircraft for the nuclear role?
It is very unlikely (I think) that the French will allow enough details of the new aircraft to be shared with the US for it to adopt that role.

Next stupid question - as there are theatre missiles coming back into the situation, would it not be easier to create Pershing 3? I suppose the US would not sell aircraft then but they would be useful for the Pacific (answered my own question).

[chopper2004]

Due to replacement for the Tornado being delayed.

https://eurasiantimes.com/nato-commitment-forces-germany-to-acquire-f-18-super-hornets-reduce-number-of-typhoons/

Just remembered it was mentioned on this thread

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/592733-german-tornado-replacement-5.html

cheers

[Buster15]

Just remembered it was mentioned on this thread

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/592733-german-tornado-replacement-5.html

cheers

Just shows what fantastic value for money Tornado has been to the GAF.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Scramble reporting that Germany ordered another 38 x Tranche 4 Typhoons on November 5 - for 5.4 Billion Euros. They will replace the oldest Tranche 1 aircraft within the current total fleet of 141 aircraft.

https://www.scramble.nl/military-news/germany-buys-new-tranch-3-ef-2000s

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/alexluck9/status/1479769475138215937?s=21

[chopper2004]

https://twitter.com/alexluck9/status/1479769475138215937?s=21

Got the freebie hat for sitting in the F-35A mock up at ILA 2018 :)

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/luftwaffe_f35_8a4ab83891c42524442fc405832672afaf71049d.jpg

At the time it looked promising because it was envisioned to carry the B-61 thus Germany carying on nuclear commitment to NATO,

cheers

[ORAC]

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2022/01/10/new-german-government-revisits-tornado-replacement-options/

New German government revisits Tornado replacement options

[rattman]

Man trying to decide which is the worse procrastinator, germany or canada ?

[Less Hair]

It is never to late to correct a wrong decision. Germany wanted to please the French by buying "outdated" F/A-18 for US special weapon delivery. This was intended to keep an urgent need for FCAS development alive. Now they realize that everybody else picked the F-35, the one that Luftwaffe already had dared to opt for before.

[sandiego89]

Man trying to decide which is the worse procrastinator, germany or canada ?

India might be in the running as well, but no one can quite do it like the Canadians.

[balsa model]

Man trying to decide which is the worse procrastinator, germany or canada ?
Hm... Let me think... I think I'll have to re-read the thread from the beginning. I thought I saw a spelling mistake.

[ORAC]

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2022/01/12/boeing-pledges-expanded-german-industry-involvement-if-berlin-buys-the-f-18/

Boeing pledges expanded German industry involvement if the nation buys the F-18

[Buster15]

https://www.defensenews.com/industry/2022/01/12/boeing-pledges-expanded-german-industry-involvement-if-berlin-buys-the-f-18/

Boeing pledges expanded German industry involvement if the nation buys the F-18

I am sure that Boeing and LM for that matter would offer just about anything in an attempt to further reduce the European defence sector. LM has been increasingly successful in doing that already.

Any US jet, especially F35 would impact the requirement for the Franco German Spanish FCAS programme, which is already in difficulties over workshare.
And a nuclear capable F18 would reduce the number of new Typhoon for Germany.

As I have mentioned before. All of this goes to demonstrate what fantastic value for money the Tornado has and is still to Germany. IDS, ECR and Nuclear capable in just one jet. Something that its replacement cannot do.

[Less Hair]

It is massively outdated and the structural life expires. They tried long enough to just keep it going.

[Buster15]

It is massively outdated and the structural life expires. They tried long enough to just keep it going.

Maybe so. But that was not what I was talking about.

[Firestreak]

As an air defender, can I ask why it would apparently take years to ‘qualify’ Typhoon to carry a nuke? In the past we slung nukes under many airframes without drama, what’s problem?

[Bob Viking]

Please bear in mind I’m not a Typhoon guy but I’ll do my best!

By your username I’m assuming you used to defend the air from the cockpit of a Lightning. Back in those days bombs etc were no more complex than a lump of metal to drop from the right piece of sky. Very little software was required and carriage trials would have been quite simple. We also did a lot of the work ourselves and didn’t have partner nations to worry about.

Nowadays jets are too clever for their own good and you can’t just strap on whatever you like without modifying the software. This is expensive and can involve the cooperation of multiple nations. It is especially complicated where nuclear secrets are involved.

I hope that makes sense. And I hope I’m not talking a load of rubbish.

BV

[Buster15]

Please bear in mind I’m not a Typhoon guy but I’ll do my best!

By your username I’m assuming you used to defend the air from the cockpit of a Lightning. Back in those days bombs etc were no more complex than a lump of metal to drop from the right piece of sky. Very little software was required and carriage trials would have been quite simple. We also did a lot of the work ourselves and didn’t have partner nations to worry about.

Nowadays jets are too clever for their own good and you can’t just strap on whatever you like without modifying the software. This is expensive and can involve the cooperation of multiple nations. It is especially complicated where nuclear secrets are involved.

I hope that makes sense. And I hope I’m not talking a load of rubbish.

BV

Remember that part of the Tornado certification included NEMP testing I think in China Lake. So physical as well as software testing and certification to enable it to carry a nuclear bomb.

Edit.
Added to that is the requirement, as part of the change control process, for any subsequent change to be supported by a Nuclear Safety impact statement.

[Just This Once...]

Even 'back-in-the-day' the clearance process was not easy or a given - Tornado had to be additionally hardened (twice) and, as a fleet fit, was only cleared for 1 store from 1 shoulder pylon. Sea Harrier was even more difficult and when they say it was hard-wired to a single pylon, they really mean it! The Jag clearance was based more on hope than physics and with later EMP testing it wouldn't have stood a chance. The results of the 'late-service' test of the Bucc proved to be more embarrassing than was forecast, albeit for opposite reasons(!).

Doing it with an electric jet but not from the outset is another world of pain.

[rattman]

F-35's are back on table as options according to https://www.globaldefensecorp.com/2022/02/06/germany-negotiating-with-the-u-s-to-buy-f-35-stealth-jets/

[George211]

Even 'back-in-the-day' the clearance process was not easy or a given - Tornado had to be additionally hardened (twice) and, as a fleet fit, was only cleared for 1 store from 1 shoulder pylon. Sea Harrier was even more difficult and when they say it was hard-wired to a single pylon, they really mean it! The Jag clearance was based more on hope than physics and with later EMP testing it wouldn't have stood a chance. The results of the 'late-service' test of the Bucc proved to be more embarrassing than was forecast, albeit for opposite reasons(!).

Doing it with an electric jet but not from the outset is another world of pain.

The original Sea Harrier was the FRS1 (where the S signified nuclear Strike), the upgraded version was originally going to be FRS2 but this was changed to FA2 (A being conventional Attack only) early in the development. This was because it would be too expensive to certify the aircrafts data bus to the safety standards necessary for nuclear weapon carriage. Safety standards had been increased between the FRS1s introduction in the 1970s and the FA2s in the 1990s. Qualifying an aircraft, not designed from the start for the nuclear mission, is probably a non starter.

[Asturias56]

"F-35's are back on table as options "

You never want to be negotiating with just a single supplier - even if you've made up your mind ;)

[henra]

"F-35's are back on table as options "
You never want to be negotiating with just a single supplier - even if you've made up your mind ;)

I don't think this is just a fake. I think the new government is seriously reconsidering the choice towards a more future oriented solution. Knowing that an ECR version of the Typhoon is planned anyway also as a preparation for FCAS and the F-35 being way mor future proof solution than the F-18 this makes more sense in the long run.

[melmothtw]

Agreed, this isn't a negotiating tactic to get a better price out of Boeing for the SH/Growler. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since Berlin agreed under pressure from Paris not to buy the F-35, not least has been Madrid joining FCAS and eyeing up the F-35A/B for itself.

[Less Hair]

The French miffed the new german government with "their" new EU-taxonomy labeling nuclear power as being "green" now so EU support for aging french reactors will have to get co-funded by the "green" german government. All this was launched exactly when the new german government was busy with elections and setting up its coalition-structures. Now the Germans feel like moving out of Mali and buying Lightnings regardless of FCAS.

[henra]

All this was launched exactly when the new german government was busy with elections and setting up its coalition-structures. Now the Germans feels like moving out of Mali and buying Lightnings regardless of FCAS.
I don't know if this is really a direct 'retaliation' but indeed the new Government apparently feels a bit less 'obliged' to the French Government than their predecessor.
Looking at it rationally besides the fact of getting a much more future proof and potent Nuclear Strike Platform this would also mean more EF Typhoons which in turn supports German Industry Jobs. A further benefit is that it forces Germany to develop ECR- EF which helps building up competencies for FCAS. So far there is a perceived imbalance regarding FCAS when it comes to work share vs. cost/risk- share between France and Germany. Only real downside is that they will have to go to NATO and apologize for not providing promised EW capabilities in time.

[Kemble Pitts]

... So far there is a perceived imbalance regarding FCAS when it comes to work share vs. cost/risk- share between France and Germany...

You don't say!! :rolleyes:

[rattman]

The French miffed the new german government with "their" new EU-taxonomy labeling nuclear power as being "green" now so EU support for aging french reactors will have to get co-funded by the "green" german government. All this was launched exactly when the new german government was busy with elections and setting up its coalition-structures. Now the Germans feel like moving out of Mali and buying Lightnings regardless of FCAS.


Dragging it off topic but this was an quid pro qo agreement between the german and french govt. Germany would agree to nuclear being declared green (justifiable requiest in my opinion) France would agree to the same for LNG. The germans got a lot of backlash and cancelled the agreement

[Less Hair]

Not sure about those claimed backdoor agreements? The current german government coalition would certainly never have agreed to some deal like this. And the last government (Merkel) even abandoned nuclear power production within Germany altogether after the Fukushima accidents. France needs to overhaul it's entire nuclear infrastructure. Some priority EU support funding because of being tagged "green" now will come in quite handy.
BTW The germans buy nuclear power made elsewhere and face nuclear power plants next door in neighbouring countries close to their border.

[rattman]

Not sure about those claimed backdoor agreements? The current german government coalition would certainly never have agreed to some deal like this. And the last government (Merkel) even abandoned nuclear power production within Germany altogether after the Fukushima accidents.

Yes it was previous merkal, they were desperate to natural gas declared a transitional green energy source on the taxometry. So much so they were going to recipocrate the same agreement for france and nuclear power

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/02/business/europe-green-investments-nuclear-natural-gas.html

[rattman]

German Chancellor is currently speaking to the Bundestag - Bundeswehr will get 100 billion Euros in 2022 to be made combat ready - going forward Nato requirement of 2% will not only be met but exceeded - FCAS top priority - armed Heron UCAS will be bought - Eurofighter is getting an ECM variant - Germany buys F-35 for nuclear sharing

[tdracer]

German Chancellor is currently speaking to the Bundestag - Bundeswehr will get 100 billion Euros in 2022 to be made combat ready - going forward Nato requirement of 2% will not only be met but exceeded - FCAS top priority - armed Heron UCAS will be bought - Eurofighter is getting an ECM variant - Germany buys F-35 for nuclear sharing
I suspect you can thank Vlad's recent actions for that.