A masterclass in situation management

[vne165]

Finished early today, a nice afternoon here in God’s country at the beginnings of a long weekend. Thought I'd tune in to the Victorian Hotel Quarantine Inquiry to watch young Daniel get probed, then neatly skewered on a queens counsel shish-kebab.
Surely I thought, it was on the cards, could be good viewing. A safe bet that he'd be under immense pressure, lose his rag, blame everyone else, then have to fall on his sword in a fit of reluctant accountability.
After all, >700 people are deceased as a result of the decisions his administration has taken. And he is the captain-coach, it's his gig.
The buck stops here, as he’s particularly fond of saying.

Rather, I saw a masterclass in denial and manipulation of the facts, a genuine solid-gold performance in how to demonstrate authority and command, yet without accepting responsibility for what has occurred under his supervision.
Yes I agree your holiness, it's unacceptable that most of the people I appointed failed miserably, that's why I appointed you to try to find out what happened. I'm not here to pre-empt your findings your grace, my commentary on what has occurred is not relevant.

No matter what he was asked, he deftly mitigated the thrust of the inquiry, with an almost genuflecting but at the same time, authoritative remorse.
No wonder the punters keep backing him in.

Yes, I agree Mr. A, it isn't good enough, not by a long shot. What I witnessed today was a soft touch-up, in a state that has gone soft.
The closing stages (after all it was post five o'clock for goodness sake!!!), where his counsel begged her majesty leave for to him speak, in apology for the (others) sins, left me speechless.

The cheek of the man. And the culpability/impotency of the Victorian media.
The emperor, I’m afraid, has no clothes.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Welcome to the 'World Of Professional SPIN'...... Doctor.....

NO CHEERS 'ERE....NOPE...NONE AT ALL!!!!!

[mattyj]

Surveys (for what they’re worth) say upwards of 60% of Victorians approve of the Marxist fools handling of coronavirus so not much chance of anything happening there.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x960/81fe1fe2_cd1c_4841_ae40_07ef95b327d5_088528cafdcb865c1549c37 51765f0b473b03b93.jpeg

[airdualbleedfault]

Wouldn't trust that *%#@wit with a chook raffle (or my kids)

[dr dre]

Surveys (for what they’re worth) say upwards of 60% of Victorians approve of the Marxist fools handling of coronavirus so not much chance of anything happening there.


Actually 67%, including almost half of LNP voters. (http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/8518-victorian-stage-4-restrictions-september-10-2020-202009091315)

Oh no, they’re just “sheeple”, brainwashed by the “lame stream media” to support the “Marxist dictator”....

Or they’ve looked at the situation and support the government actions to get through this situation as quick as possible without having moronic anti mask/anti lockdown idiots disrupt it.

I think what we’re seeing is a classic example of the “silent majority”, as opposed to the “noisy minority”. Except whilst most of the time the political right claims they have the backing of the “silent majority” this time they’re evidently in the “noisy minority”.

[Rabbitwear]

Why no mention of the security companies failing their duties in Security, I mean it’s their Business right .
The private security companies have managed to avoid any punishment.
The first thing I would do is remove them from all Australian Airports.

[Keg]

Or they’ve looked at the situation and support the government actions to get through this situation as quick as possible without having moronic anti mask/anti lockdown idiots disrupt it..

In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is King...... or Stockholm syndrome! I can’t work out which one is most likely. Perhaps a bit of both.

[Ascend Charlie]

There has to be a document in the hands of the security companies, telling them to go and do the hotels stuff. They don't do it off their own bat, or just off a phone call. So, somebody's name has to be at the bottom of that email.

[TBM-Legend]

The rule is never commission an investigation or Royal Commission unless you have carefully crafted the Terms of Reference to give you the outcome you want and then hand-pick the Commissioner and adjust the timing to suit. Wait for the recommendations, say you'll accept them all and then be selective and throw the others out....Voila a politician!

[vne165]

There's some commentary doing the rounds that the executive may be exposed to the WorkSafe industrial manslaughter legislation they implemented late least year.
Perhaps explaining the plethora of memory failures and claims of ignorance. Interesting to see how it plays out. The irony of it all.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

There has to be a document in the hands of the security companies, telling them to go and do the hotels stuff. They don't do it off their own bat, or just off a phone call. So, somebody's name has to be at the bottom of that email.
Someone had to sign off the procurement spend. There will be documents and names up a tree. From the bottom to the top.

[JustinHeywood]

...Actually 67%, including almost half of LNP voters. (http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/8518-victorian-stage-4-restrictions-september-10-2020-202009091315)



I think that once again you’re being a bit cavalier with the facts there doc. What the article you linked ACTUALLY said was

“....a sizeable minority of 43% of L-NP supporters also approve of his handling of the job.”

[dr dre]

I think that once again you’re being a bit cavalier with the facts there doc. What the article you linked ACTUALLY said was

“....a sizeable minority of 43% of L-NP supporters also approve of his handling of the job.”

Yeah 43%. Almost 50%. Which is almost half. The way the hate is being expressed for Dan A from RW circles I would expect at least 90% disapproval from LNP supporters but if he's still gaining 43% approval from LNP supporters then I think it's fair to say he has "almost half" of the LNP voters approving of his handling of the situation.

[galdian]

Yeah 43%. Almost 50%. Which is almost half. The way the hate is being expressed for Dan A from RW circles I would expect at least 90% disapproval from LNP supporters but if he's still gaining 43% approval from LNP supporters then I think it's fair to say he has "almost half" of the LNP voters approving of his handling of the situation.

Craft a question to manufacture a response that "everyone loves Chairman Dan" - and one wonders why so many people view polls and such as crap.

ANYONE leading Victoria would have had to implement a similar regime due the severity of the situation, bugger all other options really.

Ask people if they think the actions are appropriate - reckon you'd get 95% saying (grudgingly and unhappily) yes.
Ask people what they personally think of Chairman Dan - now that'd be interesting.

Maybe you and ChariDan should retire to PRC and have a few beers whilst inspecting the tits of the local ladies, from a previous thread a major consideration as you judge a countries ethos and ethics. ;)
Not saying a bad starting point - but lacking depth perhaps.

Also a good vantage point to see PRC making Taiwan as happy as they've made Hong Kong to be part of the PRC "Family". Lucky Taiwan.
Cheers

[Derfred]

Why no mention of the security companies failing their duties in Security, I mean it’s their Business right .
The private security companies have managed to avoid any punishment.
The first thing I would do is remove them from all Australian Airports.

I have constantly been thinking the same thing.

But...

Private security companies are not answerable to the People of Victoria. Only the Government is. The only thing at stake for them is their reputation, and maybe WHS breaches.

At the end of the day, they were employed by someone in Government to do a job. With 48 hrs notice.

Did they have suitably trained staff just sitting around on standby to do the job? Of course not. So they had to rapidly employ or sub-contract unsuitable staff to do it.

As a result, they failed. Should the “someone” in Government have known that? Yes, they should. Would they have been likely to know that? No, they wouldn’t. Why not? Because we have a governmental system in place whereby politicians are given portfolios over industries they know nothing about. That’s the system. That’s exactly why Turnbull fckd up the NBN when he was Communications Minister. He even admitted that he didn’t even know how to turn on a computer. But he was put in charge of the project.

That doesn’t seem to be the focus of the inquiry, which is strange, because that was the real problem.

The other part of the problem was that once Scomo realised that his international passenger arrival policy of “please stay home for 14 days” wasn’t working, he just lumped it on the State governments to implement forced international arrival hotel quarantine, with 48 hrs notice. Which is NOT a State government responsibility. International quarantine is a Federal responsibility.

If I had been a State Premier, I would have said to Scomo “Sorry, but no. Not my job. You sort it out, I’m busy. Oh, and BTW, no more international arrivals into my State until you do. “

At least that would have given Scomo something to do while all the State Premiers are working their arses off while he snipes from the sidelines when he’s not watching footy or planning his next family holiday in Hawaii.

[vne165]

Another rumour has it that the private security companies were selected to meet a "diversity in procurement" target within the particular department concerned.

[Buster Hyman]

Roy Morgan Special Snap SMS Poll of Victorians conducted on Tuesday September 8 to Wednesday September 9, 2020, n=2,325 with over 1,000 respondents each asked 3 questions.

Population at 31 Mar 2020 : Victoria 6,689,400

:rolleyes:

[Green.Dot]

At least that would have given Scomo something to do while all the State Premiers are working their arses off while he snipes from the sidelines when he’s not watching footy or planning his next family holiday in Hawaii.YOU sum up precisely what is wrong with the sheep who are entitled to vote in this country.

Labor, Liberal, Greens or Fishing Party supporter, somehow we focus on the “popular” media spin that doesn’t matter and completely miss the bigger picture.

“Let’s focus on the PM who took a holiday with his family, almost a year ago, but we will just sweep aside the Victorian Premier who lies through his teeth on a daily basis who has led the biggest f&$k up in Australian history.”

If he happened to be a Liberal Premier I would also be scathing. This is a sham of the highest level and I don’t know why people like you insist on defending him. If the majority think like you the future of this nation is in complete jeopardy.

[machtuk]

Gotta remember that Australia is a 3rd world country with a 1st world facade! Corruption at all levels especially political & judicial runs rampant here! We just go from one cluster fcku to the next, Ops normal!

[Lookleft]

You have to laugh at those who think that they have all the information and that everyone else are sheep. They are the people that are able to claim that there is corruption at all levels and that the rest of the population is taken in by media spin. Never do they provide specific evidence or acknowledge which side of the media spin cycle that they reside in. After all the media in this country are biased. The Guardian being biased to the left and the Murdoch press being biased to the right. If you really want to see a 3rd world country dressed up as a 1st world example look no further than the US. Of course to quote that most incorruptible of politicains "If you don't love it,LEAVE!!!"

[hillbillybob]

:rolleyes:

not sure why you are rolling your eyes, 1000 people out of 7 million gives a margin of error of 3 percent. at a 95% confidence level which is the usual target

[megan]

When the hotel quarantine began I did read somewhere that the proposition was put by someone that farming the guard duty to the security industry, rather than the ADF, was seen as a plus plus by Labor, giving employment to some of the populous who were already under the gun, and currying favour with the union responsible for the security industry, who it was said was "powerful". Think it was in "The Australian". The fact that Comrade Dan keeps lying about the offer of ADF not being made is incredulous. Interesting to see the results of the next Vic election, and if the Feds pick up any of the tab for Labors shots to both feet.

[vne165]

Megan, if he is still there at the next election and given the absence of a credible opposition, they will back him in again. They've done it twice before, seemingly won over by his "tough' approach.
Agree he is lying through his teeth about the ADF offer, in the face of what seems almost incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. No one seems to call this out. It's curious.

[Buster Hyman]

not sure why you are rolling your eyes, 1000 people out of 7 million gives a margin of error of 3 percent. at a 95% confidence level which is the usual target
If they Poll people outside the Liberal Party HQ, they'll get a different result. Still 95% confidence I guess. There's only ever one Poll that counts and everything else is just background noise.

[cattletruck]

The Victorian DHS, now DHHS, has for many decades been a lefty organisation full of militant lesbians and strong union membership which has sadly become the primary criterion for getting onto their payroll - the Teflon suit performance during the enquiry was quite an indication of that.

During a time of crisis when the DHHS heads needed to shine and start kick serious goals on dealing with the pandemic, they instead, as the enquiry has shown, feigned memory loss and assumed others would be doing their job.

The DHHS seniority have become utterly useless and never had the ability to manage this crisis because they have not been leaders or innovators for decades while they endeavoured to preserve their impenetrable status quo. The ham fisted approach to Victorian lockdown is proof of this as they could not formulate any plan with enough fidelity to keep some more businesses ticking over.

Andrew's only fault here is that he didn't have the guts to kick these idiots out of their job earlier.

The whole lot of these DHHS senior staffers need to be taken out of the way, until then we shall continue to suffer these fools.

[rcoight]

If they Poll people outside the Liberal Party HQ, they'll get a different result. Still 95% confidence I guess. There's only ever one Poll that counts and everything else is just background noise.

Polls have proven to be very accurate in the last few years....

[unobtanium]

The Victorian DHS, now DHHS, has for many decades been a lefty organisation full of militant lesbians and strong union membership which has sadly become the primary criterion for getting onto their payroll - the Teflon suit performance during the enquiry was quite an indication of that.
......
The whole lot of these DHHS senior staffers need to be taken out of the way, until then we shall continue to suffer these fools.

Remove militant lesbians from their jobs? Good luck with that. Many companies are so scared of backlash they'll do anything to retain female leaders let alone executive Karen.

[Sunfish]

As one pessimist stated; true equality will be achieved when there are just as many incompetent female leaders as male ones.

The last two major loss of life events in Victoria - black Saturday and now the second wave of covid have been presided over by incompetent female ‘’leaders”.

‘’There are suggestions right now that some in DHHS could face prosecution and jail under Victoria’s. labor enacted, industrial manslaughter laws. Talk about a funny twist.

[dr dre]

Any valid points you guys have to make are lost when you drone on with childish rubbish about how much you dislike gays or women. Actually not even childish rubbish because even children these days wouldn’t hold such nonsense views that the last few posters are harping on about. No wonder there’s such a push from corporations for diversity and inclusion these days, despite how some want to believe it’s all in the past.

Whatever happened to the “professional” bit of “PPrune”?

[Homesick-Angel]

Lost your job - who hasn’t?

Having a hissy fit? Thought so.

A 1 in 100 year pandemic that no one in the Southern Hemisphere has ever had to deal with.

Mistakes have been made - no one is denying that. The federal government is responsible for aged care. Haven’t heard them take it on the chin.

Even with mistakes we are a shining beacon of success in dealing with this to the rest of the world.

Harden up. We get to sit on our butts and ride it out with Netflix, pizza and beer. Think of what older generations had to do to sacrifice for the greater good.


The rebound out of all this will be slow but robust. In a few years there will be a scramble like always. The bigger the down the greater the up and at the moment companies are just keeping their ink dry to weather the storm.

Some pilots will never fly again and it’s devastating but if you think DA is responsible for that... well... try putting down the crack pipe.

[Keg]

He’s talking about Christine Nixon during Black Saturday

[Homesick-Angel]

From Homesick-angel
What did older generations have to do to sacrifice for the greater good?

Well, I can think of World War 1 (60,000 Australians killed) and World War 2 (27,000 Australians killed) to start with.

It was a poorly constructed sentence by me but thats exactly what I meant - you can add a depression a recession and a range of other health crisis over the last 100 years - our generation hasn’t had to deal with anything of note. Until now.

[Stickshift3000]

Even with mistakes we are a shining beacon of success in dealing with this to the rest of the world.

Harden up. We get to sit on our butts and ride it out with Netflix, pizza and beer. What did older generations have to do to sacrifice for the greater good?

Well stated.

[Buster Hyman]

He’s talking about Christine Nixon during Black Saturday
Okay, didn't quite follow so thread drift deleted.:ok:

[vne165]

To reprise, and to quote J Albrechtsen in the Oz today, "What if 768 people died due to the actions of a business? We are allowing politicians to run a protection racket, exempting themselves from basic accountability standards they impose on businesses."
It's not a blue team/red team issue, it's what we've slept-walked into. There must be rational and proportionate levels of accountability.

[Derfred]

To reprise, and to quote J Albrechtsen in the Oz today, "What if 768 people died due to the actions of a business? We are allowing politicians to run a protection racket, exempting themselves from basic accountability standards they impose on businesses."
It's not a blue team/red team issue, it's what we've slept-walked into. There must be rational and proportionate levels of accountability.

That’s a completely irrational conclusion and it is one of the reasons why that is not my preferred news source.

Why?

Because 768 people didn’t die due to the actions of politicians.

768 people died because they caught a virus during a pandemic.

The politicians are in charge of managing public health policies to minimise the impact of a pandemic.

The government has done a lot to interfere with society to minimise pandemic deaths. That is completely different from the government implementing policies that cause deaths.

We can always look back on how well they did, and say that if they did better, the death count would have been lower.

We can also look back and say that if they didn’t do xxx then the death count would have been much higher, as it has turned out in most other countries.

It’s absurd to suggest that our government exists to keep us safe from disease.

What do you think is the role of government with respect to a sudden pandemic?

[blubak]

To reprise, and to quote J Albrechtsen in the Oz today, "What if 768 people died due to the actions of a business? We are allowing politicians to run a protection racket, exempting themselves from basic accountability standards they impose on businesses."
It's not a blue team/red team issue, it's what we've slept-walked into. There must be rational and proportionate levels of accountability.
Correct,get rid of this lib or lab mentality,vote on the current performance,the facts are clear & show 99% of the cases & deaths have come from the hotel security disaster.
If his strategy had worked in employing these fly by night security companies we now wouldnt be hearing every day how his current strategy is working(which thankfully it is thanks to us,not him)
If he represented the libs it would be interested to see how many of the current I STAND WITH DAN social media posters would be posting.

[minigundiplomat]

You get the government you deserve.

Other than that, I have nothing to add on Victoria or Victorians.

[vne165]

Derfred,
You ask what I think the role of the government is with respect to an urgent pandemic?
A few criteria come to mind, here’s the first ten.


To execute decision making in a timely, clear and transparent manner.
To provide leadership, direction and motivation to the general citizenry to collectively work together, united in a common, urgent cause.
To manage and coordinate the overall effort in a coherent, measured manner.
To ensure that messaging, advice, information and data is provided to citizens in a timely manner, is consistent and broadcast to all, regardless of spoken language.
To enforce rational, reasonable constraints on the citizenry, commensurate with the minimum required to manage the risk involved.
To ensure that enforcement measures are applied consistently and fairly across all sections of society.
To continue to govern for the citizens in an open and democratic manner, subject to the normal rules of Westminster parliamentary convention.
To manage the spend associated with the pandemic in a transparent, open and accountable manner.
To ensure that adequate resources are made available to response personnel in a timely manner, according to perceived priorities.
To remain accountable and accept responsibility for oversight and management of the response effort.

I wonder, which of the above do you agree/disagree with, and to which would you award a pass mark to the Victorian administration?

[cee cee]

When the hotel quarantine began I did read somewhere that the proposition was put by someone that farming the guard duty to the security industry, rather than the ADF, was seen as a plus plus by Labor, giving employment to some of the populous who were already under the gun, and currying favour with the union responsible for the security industry, who it was said was "powerful".

Employees belonging to powerful unions generally get six figure salaries and have a secure job that lasts their whole working life. Think mining, construction or port workers.

Security guards that are involved in this fiasco are casual workers who earn barely above minimum pay and don't know whether they have work (or pay) tomorrow. Kind of like the lowly paid casual nursing home staff that need to work at multiple sites to make ends meet. If there were any financial impropriety, it would be to transfer government money to the coffers of fat cat business owners squeezing every cent out of their staff. (in a less cynical tone, the original spread of Covid was mostly through rich people travelling the world, the current spread worldwide is generally through poor people who are forced to work in multiple sites or have no pay if they do not work)

Think it was in "The Australian". The fact that Comrade Dan keeps lying about the offer of ADF not being made is incredulous. Interesting to see the results of the next Vic election, and if the Feds pick up any of the tab for Labors shots to both feet.

Right, "The Australian", that explains it.

[Keg]

Right, "The Australian", that explains it.

So you’re suggesting the Australian mis-reported the relevant Minister’s comments to the judicial inquiry about why a particular company was chosen to provide security? The Age reported the same comments! Interestingly didn’t see much about those comments in the ABC though. Why would that be?

The level of confirmation bias based on who did/ did not report a particular thing is surreal. Just as surreal as Victorian Dan supporters banging on about the Ruby Princess as a way of deflecting from systemic, ongoing, multi agency incompetency in the Victorian government.

[Derfred]

I agree that party politics should play no part in managing a pandemic. I will praise and criticise, a-politically, as follows.

I would give the VIC Government a big fail for their implementation of hotel quarantine. But not for the same reason as most. There is nothing inherently wrong with private security. We use private security at airports. Banks use private security. But that particular operation in VIC didn't work. Regardless of who the inquiry will eventually find to be accountable or responsible, the success or failure of quarantine is measured by its ability to actually quarantine people. They had one job. But who were "they"? They don't seem to even know. That's a problem. Is it a problem unique to this particular government? I think that's what they are still trying to work out.

I would also give the NSW, SA, QLD and WA Governments a big fail for the implementation of hotel quarantine. Every one of these states has had breaches of hotel quarantine subsequent to the VIC outbreak - they didn't even learn from VIC's mistake. ADF or no ADF. They also had one job, plus the benefit of hindsight. They were just very, very lucky that those breaches didn't spread COVID all over the community before they were discovered, as happened in VIC. When you bring in 4000 people a week, statistically some of them are going to have COVID. The consequences of a breach can be enormous, as seen in VIC.

I would give the VIC Government very high credit for how they have handled the outbreak resulting from the quarantine breaches. They made a plan, they made it clear, they implemented it, they enforced it, they set clear targets, and they are meeting those targets. They are on TV every day with updates. It's working.

I would also give all the other states high credit for how they have handled their community transmissions. NSW, QLD and SA have all proven that small outbreaks can be contained and managed while still allowing most of the economy to function. They don't want an outbreak like VIC, but they have also proven that you don't need full elimination like WA and TAS seem to think. Low numbers with good tracing and testing are manageable. Just need to keep it out of aged care.

I would give all the other states low credit for the continued closures of the their state borders, and the ridiculous gloating about it, particularly QLD and WA. The only state they should have been closed to since June is VIC. The only state that hasn't closed its borders ever is VIC. The other states should be opening up to regional VIC right now, as regional VIC has zero community transmission, and there is a border around Melbourne metro.

I say that as a pilot who has a vested interest in the aviation industry returning ASAP. But I also think that it is vital for Australia to function as a country, rather than the NUSA (Non-United States of Australia). Election or no election. Keeping state borders closed because it is "popular" among voters is unacceptable, and it is the only thing I have ever agreed with Clive Palmer about.

I would give the Federal Government very low credit for pretty much everything it has done, from self-isolation of international passengers, to down-playing the virus, to the COVID App that had already proven not to work before it was implemented, to the Ruby Princess, to bickering with the states (but only the Labor ones), and playing party politics. They have let QF and VA whither while giving Rex enough cash to expand to jets. Australians are returning on every airline other than VA and QF. I have not seen any leadership from the Federal Government to get the states to work together and get the borders open, I've seen the opposite. I also believe they should have been in charge of international inbound quarantine, as that is not a state responsibility, but I mentioned that earlier. They also seem to shirk their responsibility for aged care. They generally seem annoyed that COVID has given the State Governments so much attention.

So, in summary, I believe every State Governement has failed in some respect, and so has the Federal Government. But I don't believe anyone is accountable for killing 768 people. Those lives may have been saveable, but the virus killed those people. If I could identify that I could save 1000 lives per year from motor vehicle accidents by forcing everyone to wear helmets in vehicles, am I now suddenly accountable for those 1000 lives by not enforcing it? That was really the point of my question about the role of government in a pandemic. They need to balance the freedoms, economic prosperity, and health of their citizens. Not save every person at all costs. We are learning by watching the rest of the world, that acting quickly and strongly is the best answer. We have learned that once an outbreak gets to a certain point, it becomes unmanageable, horrific, and it still destroys the economy. It's still playing out around the world, but we are learning more about it every day.

At the end of the day, I would say that our governments have collectively saved possibly 25,000 people, because they got most of it right.

There was no rulebook for this, some of it had to be worked out along the way. There was some resistance along the way, for fear of hurting the economy. There were inevitably going to be some mistakes made. It's not over yet. Mistakes will still be made. The international border is going to be a huge project next year, as is (hopefully) the vaccination program. We need to stop calling our politicians names, and work together. We need to open state borders and get the economy going. We need to double down on protecting aged care, and if that means creating proper jobs on full-time pay and conditions, then so be it. We need more quarantine facilities so we can get more than 50 people on a widebody jet, and we need those facilities to be water-tight. We need to get VIC's numbers down, and reopen quarantine in VIC (and get it right this time). We need international bubbles. We have a lot of work to do.

[cee cee]

So you’re suggesting the Australian mis-reported the relevant Minister’s comments to the judicial inquiry about why a particular company was chosen to provide security? The Age reported the same comments!

Have not seen that comment and cannot find it. Can you supply a link?
The only ones I find tend to suggest deunionisation is a bigger issue in the private security industry.
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/dream-security-firm-not-backed-by-unions-hotel-inquiry-hears-20200827-p55pyg.html
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/how-hotel-quarantine-let-covid-19-out-of-the-bag-in-victoria-20200703-p558og.html
Rather the problems are similar to those in some other Australian workplaces and industries – insecure work, exploitation of temporary migrants, inadequate training and decades of de-unionisation.

I have seen no evidence that the choice of private security firm is driven by union pressure.

[Keg]

How hard did you look cee cee? Try this article! (https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/security-guards-hired-for-hotel-quarantine-in-an-attempt-at-social-inclusion-20200807-p55jlz.html) This one is subscriber only (https://www.heraldsun.com.au/coronavirus/hotel-quarantine-inquiry-unified-security-doesnt-know-why-it-secured-44m-deal/news-story/e862efd8f3029be41a23961a7fc28440) at the Hun.

Both are reporting evidence put to the judicial inquiry.



I would give the VIC Government very high credit for how they have handled the outbreak resulting from the quarantine breaches. They made a plan, they made it clear, they implemented it, they enforced it, they set clear targets, and they are meeting those targets. They are on TV every day with updates. It's working.



Having accidentally set fire to the place you don’t get plaudits because you managed to save the garage and the cars whilst the rest of the house burned down.

Draconian plan with no clear health benefit in terms of the curfew, no clear decision making process and treating the public as mere pawns in the bigger game. No attempt to bring the public with you. Deflect away any questions that have arisen using gaslighting, dissembling, hiding behind the ‘judicial inquiry’ or simply lie. Atrocious oversight by VICPOL. A D- at best!

[cee cee]

How hard did you look cee cee? Try this article! (https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/security-guards-hired-for-hotel-quarantine-in-an-attempt-at-social-inclusion-20200807-p55jlz.html) This one is subscriber only (https://www.heraldsun.com.au/coronavirus/hotel-quarantine-inquiry-unified-security-doesnt-know-why-it-secured-44m-deal/news-story/e862efd8f3029be41a23961a7fc28440) at the Hun.

Both are reporting evidence put to the judicial inquiry.
I read your first link. Don't have subscription to read the second.

Lets go through the original quote that I replied to again:
When the hotel quarantine began I did read somewhere that the proposition was put by someone that farming the guard duty to the security industry, rather than the ADF, was seen as a plus plus [that is reported] by Labor [nope by public servant/bureaucrat], giving employment to some of the populous who were already under the gun [conceded in first point], and currying favour with the union responsible for the security industry [none of the reports mention this. Actually one reports says the union was against Unified getting the contract], who it was said was "powerful" [but not powerful enough to influence who got the contract?].

I read the original lines as saying "those Labor politicians and their union mates have stuffed everyone up just to take care of the union mates". I pointed out that the private security industry exhibits the polar opposite characteristics of being strongly unionised. I also said that the typical "Labor + union" bashing is unsurprising from the Murdoch press. Nowhere did I comment on the general conduct of the Victorian government or whether their plan or action was good or bad.

From your link:
The appointment of Unified proved controversial because, unlike Wilson and MSS, it was not on the government’s preferred panel of security suppliers. Despite this, Unified ended up doing the bulk of the hotel quarantine work.
So both the government and the union did not prefer that company win the contract. So how is it "Labor + union" fault that they were hired (which was the sentiment I read into the post I originally replied to)?

PS: I am in general agreement with Derfred's post with minor differences (eg I think QLD border closure issue is magnified too much and unfairly compared with WA border closure which is absolute. It was only last week that SA and Tas opened their borders to NSW). But it is a difficult game the states are playing with their borders. It is not just the cases you know about, it is also trying to quantify the unknown cases floating around plus the risk posed by people who deliberately disobey the rules. That was why the other states slammed their borders shut against Queensland after the three women sneaked in from Melbourne. It wasn't the four known cases, it was the tens of unknown possible transmissions from them wandering around for 10 days. And once the number of cases gets away from you, it is an order of magnitude more difficult to reel it back. So it is understandable for states to be risk adverse.

[Sunfish]

Derfred and others, there is something so simple about Quarantine that seems to be going over everyone’s head and finally resulted in today’s takeover by Victorian Police. It is very simple: people don’t want to be in quarantine! Quarantine, no matter how you put it, is a form of incarceration, period. People hate it.

As practiced before air travel was invented, your ship was anchored in a designated quarantine anchorage and flight was not possible. You were marooned unless you thought you might escape sharks and drowning. The Quarantine station at Point Nepean still exists as a national park. complete with cemetery and crematorium. You stayed in Quarantine until the disease had worked its course and you either lived or died, but you weren’t getting off, period (there was a hospital but you get the drift).

Fast. forward to 2020 - private security guards who can’t use deadly force let alone any force. Visits to shopping centers, pass out, girlfriends, prostitutes. IF YOU ARE QUARANTINED YOU DO NOT HAVE CONTACT WITH ANYBODY!!!

Why is this so hard to understand for you ******* milllenials? We now have over 700 dead and billions of dollars in costs because you *7^&wits don’t understand that quarantine means total isolation!!!

For f&8&* sake put barbed wire around the hotel, machine gun nests at each corner manned by the ADF, and treat quarantine as it was designed to be implemented, not as some “optional life style choice”.

Rant terminated.

[vne165]

:D + 1 Sunfish

[blubak]

Derfred and others, there is something so simple about Quarantine that seems to be going over everyone’s head and finally resulted in today’s takeover by Victorian Police. It is very simple: people don’t want to be in quarantine! Quarantine, no matter how you put it, is a form of incarceration, period. People hate it.

As practiced before air travel was invented, your ship was anchored in a designated quarantine anchorage and flight was not possible. You were marooned unless you thought you might escape sharks and drowning. The Quarantine station at Point Nepean still exists as a national park. complete with cemetery and crematorium. You stayed in Quarantine until the disease had worked its course and you either lived or died, but you weren’t getting off, period (there was a hospital but you get the drift).

Fast. forward to 2020 - private security guards who can’t use deadly force let alone any force. Visits to shopping centers, pass out, girlfriends, prostitutes. IF YOU ARE QUARANTINED YOU DO NOT HAVE CONTACT WITH ANYBODY!!!

Why is this so hard to understand for you ******* milllenials? We now have over 700 dead and billions of dollars in costs because you *7^&wits don’t understand that quarantine means total isolation!!!

For f&8&* sake put barbed wire around the hotel, machine gun nests at each corner manned by the ADF, and treat quarantine as it was designed to be implemented, not as some “optional life style choice”.

Rant terminated.
Its not just the milennials that dont get it,obviously the captain as in the bloody idiot premier doesnt either.
Why for f sake would you have security guards still working in a quarantine hotel after what has happened over the past few months.What planet is he living on.

[Angle of Attack]

Sunfish just nailed it, a stupid half arsed system brought in by the VIC government for quarantine, don’t forget Kennet gutted the health service and centralised it and made it ripe for a pandemic, the weakest link is always exposed. That’s why it has never got away in other States, they have local based services not a gutted crap VIC system.

[Derfred]

Derfred and others...

I’m quite tickled that you think I’m a millennial! I’m not sure what part of my post led you to that assumption, but thank you. I feel younger already...

I thought I made it pretty clear that I considered the VIC hotel quarantine an enormous fail, and I think I used the words “water tight” when I referred to quarantine requirements. I didn’t go so far as to specify the caliber of automatic weapons required and the gauge of the barbed wire - I will leave that to the experts. Otherwise, recognising that exaggeration is your preferred technique when making a point, I agree with it. Actually, I thought I already had. :)

[fl610]

How hard did you look cee cee? Try this article! (https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/security-guards-hired-for-hotel-quarantine-in-an-attempt-at-social-inclusion-20200807-p55jlz.html) This one is subscriber only (https://www.heraldsun.com.au/coronavirus/hotel-quarantine-inquiry-unified-security-doesnt-know-why-it-secured-44m-deal/news-story/e862efd8f3029be41a23961a7fc28440) at the Hun.

Both are reporting evidence put to the judicial inquiry.



Having accidentally set fire to the place you don’t get plaudits because you managed to save the garage and the cars whilst the rest of the house burned down.

Draconian plan with no clear health benefit in terms of the curfew, no clear decision making process and treating the public as mere pawns in the bigger game. No attempt to bring the public with you. Deflect away any questions that have arisen using gaslighting, dissembling, hiding behind the ‘judicial inquiry’ or simply lie. Atrocious oversight by VICPOL. A D- at best!

How hard did you look cee cee? Try this article! (https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/security-guards-hired-for-hotel-quarantine-in-an-attempt-at-social-inclusion-20200807-p55jlz.html) This one is subscriber only (https://www.heraldsun.com.au/coronavirus/hotel-quarantine-inquiry-unified-security-doesnt-know-why-it-secured-44m-deal/news-story/e862efd8f3029be41a23961a7fc28440) at the Hun.

Both are reporting evidence put to the judicial inquiry.



Having accidentally set fire to the place you don’t get plaudits because you managed to save the garage and the cars whilst the rest of the house burned down.

Draconian plan with no clear health benefit in terms of the curfew, no clear decision making process and treating the public as mere pawns in the bigger game. No attempt to bring the public with you. Deflect away any questions that have arisen using gaslighting, dissembling, hiding behind the ‘judicial inquiry’ or simply lie. Atrocious oversight by VICPOL. A D- at best!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_in_Taiwan

Totally agree Keg, the arrogance and ineptitude displayed by those who are (allegedly) there to protect and serve, is at times breathtaking as is indeed some of the absolute nonsense that has been posted on this thread.

They appear to think that there is nothing to be gained or learned from others, especially from insignificant little places like Taiwan! Sorry, chinese Taipei, lest someone gets upset, or worse, offended! What they have achieved is impressive in my opinion. Taiwan’s total deaths remain at 7 with total cases just over 500.


https://www.bignewsnetwork.com/news/266555942/taiwan-reports-new-covid-19-case-taking-total-to-514
H

Total land mass
Taiwan 35,808 km² - pop 23m
Tasmania 64,519 km², pop 524k
Australia 149 450 000 km² pop 25m

Lot's and lot's gets lost in the noise............


Australian experts are now saying Victorians should be wearing face masks, after a recent resurgence of the novel coronavirus in Melbourne and surrounding areas has forced the state to go into lockdown again.
"Early on in the crisis, there was a widespread opinion that they offered little protection to the general punter. For those in regular close contact with COVID cases they did offer important protection," says Dr Sam Hay.


Perhaps there just weren't enough mask to supply our front line medical staff, let alone the general public? How do you think that the masses might have reacted had the above little piece been published in February instead of July?


Health minister how many face masks do we have in stock? Well Premier we are still wainting for the next shipment to arrive from ............. FFS! 😔😮🤬

[vne165]

Credlin..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1jynXvHV8I

[vne165]

and again...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQFrt5bBDfA

Good to see someone taking it up to the Chairman

[DirectAnywhere]

Australia 149 450 000 km² pop 25m


I don't really get your point anyway but you're out by a factor of 20 or so on the land mass.

[megan]

They're working to the Fawlty Towers script, particularly the line "Please, please try to understand, before one of us die". 809 and counting too late.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izAqFoLtzKM

[blubak]

and again...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQFrt5bBDfA

Good to see someone taking it up to the Chairman
Yes absolutely perfect,she knew all the facts on how Crisp should be doing his job & what his responsibilities are/were.
Hopefully she doesnt let up with her determination.
The punters who are criticising her for being rude & not having any respect need to get out from under their rock & look at what he has done to the state,his time has yet to come,Mikakos hasnt finished yet.

[vne165]

Credlin again today. Thank goodness.
He's wriggling on the sharp end of the skewer now, and will be for long jump soon I think.
She is forthright, to the point, bold, courageous and indefatigable.
This is what journalists should have done, and should be doing.
Carry on.

[rcoight]

Credlin again today. Thank goodness.
He's wriggling on the sharp end of the skewer now, and will be for long jump soon I think.
She is forthright, to the point, bold, courageous and indefatigable.
This is what journalists should have done, and should be doing.
Carry on.

Agree 100%.

My question is, where are the so called journalists our taxpayer funded $1bn+ pay for on the total joke that is known as the ABC?

Pathetic. ABC needs to be de-funded immediately.

[vne165]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8_dcCAHQ3Y

[Derfred]

I’ve watched all those videos and all I see is Credlin/Sky News anti-Labor spin.

I don’t think Dan handled the quarantine well.

But I disagree with all the politics associated with it.

Sorry, but I want the State Borders opened up. And If that means VIC locking down longer, then I’m all for it.

Lock down for another month or two, get rid of the virus, then open up the states.

Why, the hell, do you idiots want to prolong state border restrictions? We are pilots!

[Sunfish]

derfred: Why, the hell, do you idiots want to prolong state border restrictions? We are pilots!

Selfish.

Look at US/Europe if you want to see how many people half measures kill.

If the cost of saving life is the entire airline industry, so be it. To put it more kindly, we can rebuild businesses we can’t bring the dead back to life.

[Green.Dot]

derfred:

Selfish.

Look at US/Europe if you want to see how many people half measures kill.

If the cost of saving life is the entire airline industry, so be it. To put it more kindly, we can rebuild businesses we can’t bring the dead back to life.

When the Titanic was sinking they put women and children in the life rafts first. For similar reasons there are a lot of Grandparents out there who would rather put their Grandkids future ahead of their own.

Many will disagree but that provides context.

[brokenagain]

Selfish.

....says the retiree with no requirement to work to live, so screw everyone else.

[Sunfish]

Broken again: says the retiree with no requirement to work to live, so screw everyone else.

‘........Who is also in a vulnerable age group and doesn’t see why he should have to die so that you can afford the latest color TV.

I am sick of young people who regard a lost year as a catastrophe. Ask your great grandparents what upheavals they endured. A year of lockdown and loss of a years income is insignificant. You have decades to get over it.

[Green.Dot]

Broken again:

‘........Who is also in a vulnerable age group and doesn’t see why he should have to die so that you can afford the latest color TV.

I am sick of young people who regard a lost year as a catastrophe. Ask your great grandparents what upheavals they endured. A year of lockdown and loss of a years income is insignificant. You have decades to get over it.

Mate, this isn’t all about airline pilots on JobKeeper. The majority will be fine while we stack shelves waiting for things to pass.

Your comments make it sound like a simple feat for businesses to rebuild in order to save EVERY life in the meantime. Is it that simple? Maybe ask a few of the business owners who haven’t been able to open up for 3 months in Melbourne whether they can afford to come back.

[neville_nobody]

I am sick of young people who regard a lost year as a catastrophe. Ask your great grandparents what upheavals they endured. A year of lockdown and loss of a years income is insignificant. You have decades to get over it.

I agree a year of lock down is nothing compared to 2 World Wars and a Great Depression. However unless you are predicting a massive economic boom like what happened after both Wars I wouldn't be so dismissive of what the young generation will have to endure economically. The generations before us has cheap housing, free education, and whilst a bit of boom bust pre 1950's from then on it has been pretty good times economically. I don't think anyone under 25 is going to see much of the prosperity that was seen by their parents and grandparents.

[junior.VH-LFA]

Broken again:

‘........Who is also in a vulnerable age group and doesn’t see why he should have to die so that you can afford the latest color TV.

I am sick of young people who regard a lost year as a catastrophe. Ask your great grandparents what upheavals they endured. A year of lockdown and loss of a years income is insignificant. You have decades to get over it.

Young people have been consistently dealt a **** hand by a generation that profited enormously off of the labour and sacrifice of the greatest generation in a massive economic boom. You have left young people with a housing market they can't buy into, education expenses that you had paid for and a climate on the brink. I'm not sure why you're surprised that when they get handed this **** sandwich of a deficit that they'd question whether it's been worth it when they'll be paying it off for you for the rest of their workings lives. Boomers are sacrificing nothing and gaining everything, at the expense of everyone else and then getting pissed off at being questioned over it.

[junior.VH-LFA]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbgagcrBxPU&ab_channel=IntheInterestsofthePeople

[3 Holer]

Pinko to Pinko interview, nothing to write home about. Just a couple of nobodys' sharing their opinions!

[JustinHeywood]

Young people have been consistently dealt a **** hand by a generation that profited enormously off of the labour and sacrifice of the greatest generation in a massive economic boom. You have left young people with a housing market they can't buy into, education expenses that you had paid for and a climate on the brink. I'm not sure why you're surprised that when they get handed this **** sandwich of a deficit that they'd question whether it's been worth it when they'll be paying it off for you for the rest of their workings lives. Boomers are sacrificing nothing and gaining everything, at the expense of everyone else and then getting pissed off at being questioned over it.
There seems to be a ongoing effort in some media/political circles to blame ‘boomers’ for pretty much everything wrong with the world.
The notion of finding something or someone to blame for all your troubles is of course seductive to the young, especially if it’s their parent’s generation.
Simplistic and intellectually lazy it may be, but there’s no doubt ‘old white guys’ are the new bad guys.
Apparently, before the boomers came along, young people just had it made.

[Chronic Snoozer]

Young people have been consistently dealt a **** hand by a generation that profited enormously off of the labour and sacrifice of the greatest generation in a massive economic boom. You have left young people with a housing market they can't buy into, education expenses that you had paid for and a climate on the brink. I'm not sure why you're surprised that when they get handed this **** sandwich of a deficit that they'd question whether it's been worth it when they'll be paying it off for you for the rest of their workings lives. Boomers are sacrificing nothing and gaining everything, at the expense of everyone else and then getting pissed off at being questioned over it.

Sounds like the boomers who were dealt the sh!t sandwich of recovering from WWII just got on and did it instead of whinging about how the generation before it had is so good. And some of those boomers are self-funded retirees mind, living way past their use by date thanks to fantastic developments in medicine and palliative care that their generation supported, all while trying to live off dividends which will dry up if they haven’t already. Climate change is the fault of boomers? Drawing a long bow there. I think that might have technically kicked off in the 1800s.

Let’s just conveniently ignore the quality of life that today’s “young people” (whatever that means) enjoy, computers, iPhones, instant information on the web, online shopping, home delivered meals, universal healthcare, gap years, worldwide travel for $500, betting apps, smashed avocado, and music streaming. So much self gratification and consumption at your fingertips.

You don’t get to retirement age and then expect to continue ‘sacrificing’, it’s done in the years well before then and there’s nothing wrong wanting to enjoy retirement. Boomers do not run today’s governments.

Instead of whining about how unfair it all is, get elected and abolish negative gearing. Get elected and finance free education for all - see how much debt that can generate. Get elected and bring in a real climate change policy. But most of all stop whining. Nobody wants COVID.

(No, I’m not a boomer, not retired nor did I get a free Uni degree.)

[Cafe City]

Broken again:

‘........Who is also in a vulnerable age group and doesn’t see why he should have to die so that you can afford the latest color TV.

I am sick of young people who regard a lost year as a catastrophe. Ask your great grandparents what upheavals they endured. A year of lockdown and loss of a years income is insignificant. You have decades to get over it.

Just as well, because that’s how long it’s going to take I’m afraid.

I agree with much of what you say and we’re probably in a similar age group but my feeling is that the Govt was waaay too generous at the beginning of this, assuming it was going to be over in a similar time frame to SARS.
They’ve made a rod for their own back and are finding it difficult to back-pedal now without pissing off a significant % of the population who think they’ve been given ‘free’ money. (Please, no Modern Monetary Theorists step in here. Absolute BS)

I can’t help but sense we’re on the doorstep of creating a massive Socialist State if we keep going down this path.

[vne165]

Yet more brilliant decision making on display in the Peoples Republic of Victoria overnight.
Fancy this - that the great unwashed have objected to ~500 race horse owners, connections and a lucky other few being allowed to witness the Cox plate in the flesh.
The peons are not permitted to go to a friends wedding, or a funeral on health grounds, confined to quarters until recently, but for the elites, sipping champagne in the mounting ring is ok.
The insouciance of them all, how dare they challenge the government. Perhaps they are waking from their slumber.

You couldn't make this stuff up.
Sutton has been fed to the sharks now, more dominos to fall soon.

[neville_nobody]

Yet more brilliant decision making on display in the Peoples Republic of Victoria overnight.
Fancy this - that the great unwashed have objected to ~500 race horse owners, connections and a lucky other few being allowed to witness the Cox plate in the flesh.
The peons are not permitted to go to a friends wedding, or a funeral on health grounds, confined to quarters until recently, but for the elites, sipping champagne in the mounting ring is ok.
The insouciance of them all, how dare they challenge the government. Perhaps they are waking from their slumber..

That is exactly why Socialism is a failure and continues to be so. We are all equal some are just more equal than others.

[vne165]

Watch - like him or loathe him AJ nails it in a few minutes.
Discuss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmlQjcmuBZY

[Green.Dot]

Watch - like him or loathe him AJ nails it in a few minutes.
Discuss.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmlQjcmuBZY

Love the work Sky news is doing (on this particular issue). Most other media organisations/journalists are pussy footing around the topic, more worried about their next promotion than finding out the truth.

[vne165]

Agreed, I don't usually partake, but they are shaming the usual suspects.

[megan]

The press reported a week ago that WorkSafe chief Colin Radford has spent the last eight weeks looking at how our largest industrial accident took place. He has been asked to prosecute four politicians and sixteen public servants. A number of silks are exploring how WorkSafe executives can be prosecuted for inaction if there is a third wave and more deaths. Supreme court may be involved.

https://www.selfemployedaustralia.com.au/latest-news/we-trigger-ohs-investigation-of-victorian-covid-19-hotel-quarantine-mess

[cattletruck]

A new cluster outbreak in Melbourne potentially making all the collective punishment of Melbournians for the past 2 months count for nothing. The family at the centre of the outbreak say they were given conflicting information from DHHS on what they were allowed to do, and that they were regularly called by different DHSS staffers who required their story be explained from the beginning each time.

This is effectively the reason we have a problem in Victoria, and as I mentioned previously, we will continue to suffer these DHHS fools as long as they remain in the way.

[vne165]

The press reported a week ago that WorkSafe chief Colin Radford has spent the last eight weeks looking at how our largest industrial accident took place. He has been asked to prosecute four politicians and sixteen public servants. A number of silks are exploring how WorkSafe executives can be prosecuted for inaction if there is a third wave and more deaths. Supreme court may be involved.

https://www.selfemployedaustralia.com.au/latest-news/we-trigger-ohs-investigation-of-victorian-covid-19-hotel-quarantine-mess
Megan - the prospect of worksafe up against the wall is titillating..., do tell more if you can.

[blubak]

A new cluster outbreak in Melbourne potentially making all the collective punishment of Melbournians for the past 2 months count for nothing. The family at the centre of the outbreak say they were given conflicting information from DHHS on what they were allowed to do, and that they were regularly called by different DHSS staffers who required their story be explained from the beginning each time.

This is effectively the reason we have a problem in Victoria, and as I mentioned previously, we will continue to suffer these DHHS fools as long as they remain in the way.
Of course theyre saying they were given conflicting info,im not standing up for the govt but dont tell me this family didnt know what they were supposed to do.
Why has it spread across households?,i wasnt aware you could visit other households or does that only apply to most of us!
Look at the school the student goes to,seriously its beyond belief that that these people didnt know or were confused,they need to be fined including the members of the other households they visited.
These people continually thumb their noses at rules thinking they are above the law whilst the rest of us pay for it.
None of us like these rules but for those that want to ignore them why dont u pack your bags & go to the place where you are in agreeance with the rules & stop risking our recovery out of this.
Govt needs to issue fines now,how blatant can it be.

[megan]

vne165, it was an article in the "Australian" and didn't elaborate beyond what is in my post. cee cee would advise you disregard, coming from that right wing rag as it does, unless it appears in the "Age" it didn't happen. ;) I could well see WorkSafe against the wall if the Comrades wanted to strut their stuff and show who's boss, and show how much they care about the populace.

It is being said that each person in the household outbreak had a different case manager, little wonder the household may have been confused. Too many cooks and all that.

[blubak]

vne165, it was an article in the "Australian" and didn't elaborate beyond what is in my post. cee cee would advise you disregard, coming from that right wing rag as it does, unless it appears in the "Age" it didn't happen. ;) I could well see WorkSafe against the wall if the Comrades wanted to strut their stuff and show who's boss, and show how much they care about the populace.

It is being said that each person in the household outbreak had a different case manager, little wonder the household may have been confused. Too many cooks and all that.
Bet there would have been no confusion if the advice was something like 'theres $50 in the mailbox for you'.
Sick of our society making excuses for these people who use every excuse in the book to avoid complying with the law.
Next time i go out without a mask & get fined i will say the information was confusing,should do the trick u think?

[SOPS]

Im thinking that these people don’t want to comply with our laws.

[blubak]

Im thinking that these people don’t want to comply with our laws.
Just the ones that suit them,F everyone else & the govt buckles to them.

[vne165]

I've seen it all now. A pause......
That fcukwit has lost his bottle & needs a long holiday.
Should be sacked immediately.
Where is the governor in all this?

[minigundiplomat]

Dan Andrews will be fine as long as he doesn't criticise Qatar on PPrune......

[C441]

I've heard conflicting reports that QR codes aren't being used in Victorian venues as they "aren't compatible with the State's contact tracing system". I did see a venue on a tv news service this morning using a pen and paper. Surely that's not the norm given the last 6 months in Melbourne.

Having used QR codes extensively during the last 6 months including two I set up for sporting venues, it would astound me if they are not being used in Victoria. They are effective, efficient, simple to use and and a simple way to encourage patrons to record their attendance.

[Buster Hyman]

They are being used by at least one Vic Govt. Dept. Used it yesterday. How that would relate to the States contact tracing, I do not know.

[vne165]

The Coate inquiry now into extra time it seems, due to additional facts and information coming to light, whilst other requested data is not being so easily surrendered.
To continue the Chairman's beloved bushfire metaphors, you can't be managing the clowns that started the conflagration, then seek accolades for putting it out, whilst gazing over a vista of 800 charred properties that are lost forever. This Sunday's Credlin special (20:00 EST) might be very interesting.

[C441]

How that would relate to the States contact tracing, I do not know.
Here in Queen(P's)land, the QR code would allow our club to provide contact tracing info to the government within an hour if requested due to a positive case attending the club.
Thankfully we didn't have to put it into practice.

[Stickshift3000]

I've heard conflicting reports that QR codes aren't being used in Victorian venues as they "aren't compatible with the State's contact tracing system". I did see a venue on a tv news service this morning using a pen and paper. Surely that's not the norm given the last 6 months in Melbourne.

The method of collecting Vic patrons name & phone numbers in premises is not prescribed. Some places are using QR code’s, some are using pen & paper (with sanitiser).

Requiring QR code systems would be onerous for (very) small business, at a time when revenue has been non-existent for many months. It has little consequence to contact tracing.

[C441]

The method of collecting Vic patrons name & phone numbers in premises is not prescribed. Some places are using QR code’s, some are using pen & paper (with sanitiser).

Requiring QR code systems would be onerous for (very) small business, at a time when revenue has been non-existent for many months. It has little consequence to contact tracing.

They are not expensive and only require a printed code to be displayed at suitable points around the premises and in particular on entry.
The one we used at the football club had 6000 free entries and then it was $13/month. Others are free but not as intuitive, for example don't allow a user to save their details for their next entry or even entry at venues with the same branded QR system.

In the event of a positive case being identified, it's not the venue that does the contact tracing, but the government authority with the info provided by the QR code company. We don't get any details of those attending other than an email each morning indicating how many attended the previous day.

Whilst I'm no fan of Queensland's overall response, I'm told by those that should know that they were able to quickly manage the Wacol and Ipswich outbreaks through quick contact tracing as most of the affected venues were using QR codes.

[Buster Hyman]

Had a Coffee today at a chain cafe. QR code didn't work but I think that was my Internet connection as it worked fine for others. Did the honest thing & informed the staff who took my first name & mobile number. All good, but as they weren't confirming that QR codes were being actioned, I guess we'll be back at square one if the Neanderthals think its breaking their Human rights as Sovereign Citizens to comply. :rolleyes:

[Stickshift3000]

Yes, I understand how it works.

My point was that the contact tracers get the patron’s info regardless if required, no matter how it’s collected at POS.

The method is possibly not mandated here in Vic as we’re bombarded by rule/directive changes seemingly daily, many of them already too onerous relative to the health risk in many areas of the state.

[C441]

My point was that the contact tracers get the patron’s info regardless if required, no matter how it’s collected at POS.
Quite true but as I was constantly reminded over the last 6 months once people began to gather, they need to be able to access the data quickly in order to ensure minimal transmission. Transposing written records of attendance (in our case up to 500 people on a Saturday arvo) would have taken too long to be as effective as it could be with a QR code. Can you also imagine getting 500-odd football followers to stand in line, physically distancing of course :), while each one filled in their name, mobile, email and address in an exercise book? They simply wouldn't after a while hence the reason the QR code is quick, simple and effective….and people did use it. Our local pub was using a pen & paper. We stopped going there when we had to wait for 15 minutes in a queue, preferring the other drinking establishment nearby that had a QR code at the door and the first beer was quenching our thirst within 3 minutes of getting there.

[Stickshift3000]

Quite true but as I was constantly reminded over the last 6 months once people began to gather, they need to be able to access the data quickly in order to ensure minimal transmission. Transposing written records of attendance (in our case up to 500 people on a Saturday arvo) would have taken too long to be as effective as it could be with a QR code. Can you also imagine getting 500-odd football followers to stand in line, physically distancing of course :), while each one filled in their name, mobile, email and address in an exercise book? They simply wouldn't after a while hence the reason the QR code is quick, simple and effective….and people did use it.

I agree it works very well for most situations.

BUT - I went for a bike ride yesterday, sat down for a coffee and didn't even have a phone with me...

[ScepticalOptomist]

A “QR code system” is just a method of pointing you to a website. That’s it. What SHOULD be happening is that website should link to a government database that the contact tracers access when dealing with a cluster.

It shouldn’t be as hard as we’re making it. That’s where the system is falling down.

[cattletruck]

Funny thing is, the telco's already log the signal strength of your mobile phone in their systems, and if your phone binds to multiple base stations as they normally do when idle then using triangulation a fix can be calculated from the data produced, although under C-19 circumstances such a precise level of location is just a bonus. Who needs QR codes.

If only our Australian telco's weren't so good at being completely useless.

[C441]

A “QR code system” is just a method of pointing you to a website. That’s it. What SHOULD be happening is that website should link to a government database that the contact tracers access when dealing with a cluster.
That would be ideal, but for the moment government contact tracers (in Qld at least) can access the QR code data in a relatively quick timeframe. They contact the club, shop, pub, restaurant or any venue and request the attendance data, which all venues were required, under their 'Covidsafe' plan/authority, to make available within hours. The venue then advise their QR code provider who sends the relevant data to the contact tracers in digital form.

Yes, it could be done in fewer steps as you say, but it's better than a pen & paper record.

[Sunfish]

Advice from a close friend whose son is a top tier IT consultant is NOT to use QR code’s or the government COVID tracing app. Despite what the Government might like you to believe, they are totally insecure for reasons I don’t understand.

[Section28- BE]

Article link: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-31/covid-19-check-in-data-using-qr-codes-raises-privacy-concerns/12823432

rgds
S28- BE

a brief extract:

Tens of thousands of small and medium Australian businesses that rushed to outsource the management of their COVID check-in obligations could find themselves snared in a looming data privacy calamity.

[27/09]

Sounds like you guys might benefit from the tracer app we have on this side of the ditch. All businesses can (must) download a (unique to that business or location) tracer app QR code from the Ministry of Health website. You scan that QR code using a Covid App which then records that you were at that location at a particular time. It's basically an electronic diary located on your phone. There is no need for a cellular connection to be able to scan. The scan records are removed 30 days after the scan.

If there's a suspected Covid case at a particular location that locations details are broadcast to all app users via the app. The app can identify if that location is one of those stored on the device. At that point the app alerts the user to a possible Covid contact. The user then contacts the health authorities for further action.

Users can opt into sharing their location details in real time to the health authorities to allow faster tracing but otherwise your locations are not shared unless it has been identified you have had a potential contact with Covid.

It's introduction was a shambles but now it seems to be working pretty well.

[Pinky the pilot]

The scan records are removed 30 days after the scan.


but otherwise your locations are not shared unless it has been identified you have had a potential contact with Covid.


27/09; No criticism of you is intended but reading the above makes an admittedly extremely cynical side of me think that anyone who actually believes the assurances given is somewhat naive!:hmm:

All businesses can (must) download a (unique to that business or location) tracer app QR code

So any business cannot refuse to do so, eh? Or else what?

I'm either rather paranoid or I simply do not trust any Government when it comes to privacy issues. Whatever you think!

Either way, I'm glad I'm not a Kiwi.

[27/09]

Pinky,

Yep understand your cynicism. The app has been running long enough now for someone to have discovered that it was "calling home" and that hasn't happened. Irrespective of government assurances this is good evidence to show privacy is being maintained. One of the reasons the app was slow to market was the fact that privacy was paramount and the app had to be effective while still maintaining the users privacy. It does that.

What's your problem with the Ministry of Health QR codes? They are a unique identifier of that businesses, sport clubs, or organisations location displayed as a QR code to enable anyone to record an electronic diary entry on their device of where they have been. It basically saves you having to manually record where you have been if contact tracing is required. Once you have the app on your device the system can work without any cellular connectivity.

I don't think much of our current government and think their handling of the pandemic has been barely adequate, our success has been due to a good luck and other factors. However I do trust what they say when they tell us the location details are not shared. Perhaps our government is more trust worthy than yours? Another point regarding privacy of location data is this app is the cornerstone to their contact tracing programme. There is no way they would want to compromise its use with the discovery they had been lying to the public about privacy.

You seem surprised businesses would be compelled to display the QR codes? For such a system to be effective there needs to be some level of compliance. Perhaps that's another difference. On this side of the Tasman we see that there is a need for this sort of thing in order to keep on top of Covid.

P.S. Use of the app is voluntary but everyone is asked to keep some sort of record of their movements.