Pilatus PC-24 Jet - happy customers?

[Office Update]

The August 2020 issue of BCA magazine has conducted their first Customer survey report on the PC-24 Jet. Many issues suggest;
Windscreens cracking on a regular basis even after being changed.
Fuel imbalance when using the single point refuelling.
Incorrect quantity of fuel being loaded due software issues.
Avionics and cockpit cooling issues on a hot day.

Any pilot or operator feedback?

[machtuk]

Be interesting to know just how many unimproved strip Ops they are actually doing?
Pilatus has a good sales pitch but in reality the 24 is very limited!

[morno]

Be interesting to know just how many unimproved strip Ops they are actually doing?
Pilatus has a good sales pitch but in reality the 24 is very limited!

In Australia, I’m going to go out on a limb and say none to may as well be none. I’m not sure what category RFDS Central and Western Ops run theirs in (aerial work? Charter?), but if it’s charter, they won’t be going in and out of “unimproved strips”.

[machtuk]

They operate under aerial work even though they would have charter on their AOC.
with that medical fit out there wouldn't be a lot left over for fuel to get the range needed in WA.
Its flash looking but that's about all!

[swh]

The August 2020 issue of BCA magazine has conducted their first Customer survey report on the PC-24 Jet. Many issues suggest;
Windscreens cracking on a regular basis even after being changed.
Fuel imbalance when using the single point refuelling.
Incorrect quantity of fuel being loaded due software issues.
Avionics and cockpit cooling issues on a hot day.

Any pilot or operator feedback?

Sound like fairly "normal" new aircraft type issues which get ironed out with time in service.

[Petropavlovsk]

swh, do you honestly believe a windscreen cracking in a pressurised aircraft capable of flying at 45,000 is "normal" for a new aircraft ?
As a previous post suggests, slick advertising.
Initial launch/new type customer discounts can lead to flawed decision making.

[rcoight]

Ours regularly flies between Darwin and Adelaide, so range is not bad for what is after all a single-pilot light jet.
The windscreen thing is a known issue but we have had no trouble with ours.
I’ve never had a fuel imbalance after using the single-point refuelling, nor the incorrect amount loaded.
The system is, however, quite fussy and if you are in a rush and don’t let it “complete” properly I can see how that may be possible. But I call that operator error, not a fault with the aircraft.
We haven’t had any issues with avionics / cockpit cooling. The environmental system is far more effective than in the PC-12.

[morno]

Ours regularly flies between Darwin and Adelaide, so range is not bad for what is after all a single-pilot light jet.
The windscreen thing is a known issue but we have had no trouble with ours.
I’ve never had a fuel imbalance after using the single-point refuelling, nor the incorrect amount loaded.
The system is, however, quite fussy and if you are in a rush and don’t let it “complete” properly I can see how that may be possible. But I call that operator error, not a fault with the aircraft.
We haven’t had any issues with avionics / cockpit cooling. The environmental system is far more effective than in the PC-12.

What’s the average TAS/Mach No. rcoight?

My prediction is like anything Pilates, the first model is a bit rough, but they refine them over time and they end up being a pretty bloody good machine. At least that’s what I noticed with the PC-12

[compressor stall]

Shhh rcoight don't let the facts get in the way of others' agenda.

@machtuk
Its flash looking but that's about all!
You've clearly never compared levels of certification standards (read crashworthiness) between it and others in the market space (e.g. B350) have you?
Or detailed performance analyses on specific runways?

[rcoight]

What’s the average TAS/Mach No. rcoight?

My prediction is like anything Pilates, the first model is a bit rough, but they refine them over time and they end up being a pretty bloody good machine. At least that’s what I noticed with the PC-12

We don't push ours much at all in the cruise, so almost always use 0.70 or 0.71, which usually gives a TAS between 405 and 420kt.
The aircraft is quite capable of doing 0.74 (which is the MMO) at all altitudes, but you'd never really use it, as if it accidentally went to 0.741 before the auto-throttles caught it it would record an overspeed.
I agree it's never wise to buy the first of any type (whether it be cars or aircraft, I don't know why people want to be first). There will always be some bugs that need ironing out.

Overall I think it's a very fine aircraft and will only get better as they make more.

[Bend alot]

swh, do you honestly believe a windscreen cracking in a pressurised aircraft capable of flying at 45,000 is "normal" for a new aircraft ?

RAAF and Cobham don't mind changing a few windcreens on the Challengers.

[arketip]

swh, do you honestly believe a windscreen cracking in a pressurised aircraft capable of flying at 45,000 is "normal" for a new aircraft ?


Global express are still cracking windscreens after 20 years

[Capt Fathom]

Pilatus! How bad could it be? :)

[morno]

We don't push ours much at all in the cruise, so almost always use 0.70 or 0.71, which usually gives a TAS between 405 and 420kt.
The aircraft is quite capable of doing 0.74 (which is the MMO) at all altitudes, but you'd never really use it, as if it accidentally went to 0.741 before the auto-throttles caught it it would record an overspeed.
I agree it's never wise to buy the first of any type (whether it be cars or aircraft, I don't know why people want to be first). There will always be some bugs that need ironing out.

Overall I think it's a very fine aircraft and will only get better as they make more.

Good to hear. As you say I’m sure they’ll get better as they make more.

With regards to the speed, I know in the Airbus, we normally sit around Mach 0.78-0.79. MMO is 0.82. Obviously I’ve never flown the PC-24, but I reckon you could easily sit closer to MMO with no problem on your average day. Jets aren’t really that efficient sitting too far below Mmo normally.

Good luck with it. Hopefully RFDS sees more of them in the future around the country.

[machtuk]

To get that range DN-AD with any sort of payload I imagine LRC would be needed. 0.70 is pretty slow for a modern day designed jet.
Be interesting to see if the 24 is able to do that route with a 80kts H/W and an Alt at either destination.
Ive done that route many times in a 0.80 machine, anything slower would be painful!

[rcoight]

Good to hear. As you say I’m sure they’ll get better as they make more.

With regards to the speed, I know in the Airbus, we normally sit around Mach 0.78-0.79. MMO is 0.82. Obviously I’ve never flown the PC-24, but I reckon you could easily sit closer to MMO with no problem on your average day. Jets aren’t really that efficient sitting too far below Mmo normally.

Good luck with it. Hopefully RFDS sees more of them in the future around the country.

Cheers, morno. It's a fantastic machine and represents a huge step up from the PC12 / B200 in terms of performance and patient / crew comfort.
As it's a totally new type and our first jet we are being conservative with the way we use it (quite rightly in my view).
M0.70 or 0.71 is very efficient, especially at FL450.

[rcoight]

To get that range DN-AD with any sort of payload I imagine LRC would be needed. 0.70 is pretty slow for a modern day designed jet.
Be interesting to see if the 24 is able to do that route with a 80kts H/W and an Alt at either destination.
Ive done that route many times in a 0.80 machine, anything slower would be painful!

M0.70 works fine DN-AD most of the time. Of course if there's a strong headwind / alt requirements, or we have a particularly heavy load we stop at YBAS.
Hardly a big deal. We have also done DN-ML more than once. Not too shabby.
You should remember we are talking about a single-pilot aircraft with a large cabin and incredible field performance.
All aircraft are a compromise in many ways.
The -24 trades ultimate speed and range for cabin size and field performance (including unimproved airstrips) and also has that huge rear door.
Compared to the palava trying to wedge patients into other jets, it's heaven.

[machtuk]

M0.70 works fine DN-AD most of the time. Of course if there's a strong headwind / alt requirements, or we have a particularly heavy load we stop at YBAS.
Hardly a big deal. We have also done DN-ML more than once. Not too shabby.
You should remember we are talking about a single-pilot aircraft with a large cabin and incredible field performance.
All aircraft are a compromise in many ways.
The -24 trades ultimate speed and range for cabin size and field performance (including unimproved airstrips) and also has that huge rear door.
Compared to the palava trying to wedge patients into other jets, it's heaven.

The 24 sure does have advantages over the faster jets. Can you get to 45K in ISA+25? As you know that's where the fuel saving is. Do your current Ops allow for Single Pilot Ops?

[rcoight]

The 24 sure does have advantages over the faster jets. Can you get to 45K in ISA+25? As you know that's where the fuel saving is. Do your current Ops allow for Single Pilot Ops?

Every time I fly it I'm on my own up the front, unless it's a check flight.
I've taken off from Darwin at MTOW and climbed direct to FL450. It's fine.

[catseye]

Every time I fly it I'm on my own up the front, unless it's a check flight.
I've taken off from Darwin at MTOW and climbed direct to FL450. It's fine.
Wondering what fuel burn and tas you would be getting at Fl450. no step climb is a good effort.

[rcoight]

Wondering what fuel burn and tas you would be getting at Fl450. no step climb is a good effort.

There are loads of variables, of course. But TAS of 400-410kt and fuel burn of 900-1000 lb/hr total is around the mark for the way we fly it.

This was taken after a max TOW departure and climb from DN direct to FL450. Fuel burn probably around 1000 lb/hr at this point.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1138x1295/img_7635_2__cf574b175bb54f793fcb0b0862008cf6a5691609.jpg

[catseye]

Thanks just what I was looking for

[machtuk]

The view of the outback at 45-50K is stunning as 'rcoight'' would know -)
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1265x953/image_d9bcb0394285b91c721f333649d8da8257677bc9.jpeg

[1290s]

Its as revolutionary as the PC12 was when it came out. A great utility vehicle of the light jet range. Wish it had been available in the 1990s when we were blasting all over outback NSW/QLD.

Perfect aircraft for RFDS (apart from the PC12)!

[The Banjo]

Single pilot at FL450. What is the current reg for wearing oxygen masks?

[rcoight]

Single pilot at FL450. What is the current reg for wearing oxygen masks?

Not required unless above FL450

[Mumbai Merlin]

Not that we are in USA but FAA regs limit S/P Ops to F410 unless wearing oxygen mask

BUT

a quick donning mask meets the requirements!

[Lead Balloon]

Thanks very much for your posts, rcoight.

[Capn Bloggs]

This was taken after a max TOW departure and climb from DN direct to FL450. Fuel burn probably around 1000 lb/hr at this point.

189KIAS. Nearjet. :E

[stilton]

Very interesting


It seems like a very good aircraft, in the article I read on it there was a brief description of an ‘APU’ mode on one of the engines that involved it being run below normal idle speed


The writer opined that while useful it would not charge the aircraft battery while being used in that manner

Do you have any more information on that ?

[rcoight]

There is a "Quiet Power Mode" function on the right engine. Two minutes after starting this engine you can put it in QPM mode, which is a slower than normal idle so it acts as a kind of APU. In QPM mode you can use up to 250A of electrical power.
You can put it in that mode before passengers board to heat / cool the cabin and operate some other electrical appliances.

I'm actually not sure if it charges the battery when in this mode (I've never used it other than to observe it working), but I don't see why that would matter - you're not draining the battery while sitting in there in QPM.

[morno]

Can you use it without a pilot having to sit in the cockpit rcoight?

[stilton]

There is a "Quiet Power Mode" function on the right engine. Two minutes after starting this engine you can put it in QPM mode, which is a slower than normal idle so it acts as a kind of APU. In QPM mode you can use up to 250A of electrical power.
You can put it in that mode before passengers board to heat / cool the cabin and operate some other electrical appliances.

I'm actually not sure if it charges the battery when in this mode (I've never used it other than to observe it working), but I don't see why that would matter - you're not draining the battery while sitting in there in QPM.


Thanks for the reply

Do you operate this aircraft into unimproved strips ?

[rcoight]

Can you use it without a pilot having to sit in the cockpit rcoight?

No. A pilot must be seated at the controls, which probably goes a long way to explaining why I've never used it.

Having said that, a lot of international -24 operators are flying the aircraft two-crew, so in that situation it would be useful.

[rcoight]

Thanks for the reply

Do you operate this aircraft into unimproved strips ?

No worries.
We certainly can, and have done so on more than one occasion.
But I haven't personally done that yet. No doubt I will eventually.

[machtuk]

rcoight where did you guys go for the endo? Did you do both multi crew training & SP training?

[rcoight]

rcoight where did you guys go for the endo? Did you do both multi crew training & SP training?

I went to FlightSafety in Dallas for the type rating and the recurrent training a year later.
We did the single-pilot rating, but the split was around 50/50 of people on the course doing single-pilot or multi-crew.

[Capt Fathom]

Re post #21....
There seems like a shed load of stuff going on on that PFD?
I guess you get used to it!

[machtuk]

I went to FlightSafety in Dallas for the type rating and the recurrent training a year later.
We did the single-pilot rating, but the split was around 50/50 of people on the course doing single-pilot or multi-crew.

Would have been interesting SP. I was at that CAE Dallas facility a couple of years ago, they where the worst provider I've had to endure!
We are lucky we have benign WX and low volumes of traffic, the States is nuts! -)
i imagine Pilatus went for the QPM to keep weight down? It is very convenient having an APU though of any sort -)

[Capt Fathom]

We are lucky we have benign WX and low volumes of traffic, the States is nuts! -)
What/why is there a link between the US training provider and our wx?

[rcoight]

Re post #21....
There seems like a shed load of stuff going on on that PFD?
I guess you get used to it!

There is, but it’s the same as the -12NG with a few extra features.
Once you get used to it, it’s very intuitive, and incredibly useful.

Having said that, I remember thinking on the type rating that If I didn’t have the several thousand hours’ experience I already had with those avionics I’m not sure that I would have passed. I felt very sorry for the guys and girls coming from Garmin or Pro-line. It’s a hell of a lot to try to take in cold.

[rcoight]

Would have been interesting SP. I was at that CAE Dallas facility a couple of years ago, they where the worst provider I've had to endure!
We are lucky we have benign WX and low volumes of traffic, the States is nuts! -)
i imagine Pilatus went for the QPM to keep weight down? It is very convenient having an APU though of any sort -)

I can’t speak highly enough of FlightSafety. Incredibly professional and thorough.

When I did it Dallas was the only place in the world you could go for a -24 rating.
They’ve recently commissioned a second sim in Paris.

[FGD135]

Something's missing from this thread. Can anybody else see what's missing?

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Looks like a nice bit of kit.

I am sure if you look into the MFD for long enough, you will find a cure for Covid19.

[Guptar]

While it's not a PC24, the Phenom 300E is pretty close to identical in performance and fuel burn, so this is an interesting video to watch to give you an idea of the fuel flows at cruise. Interestingly you can get the Phenom down to 800 pph at 420ish kts which is similar to a Kingair 350 going flat chat at 310 kts.

One interesting thing about the PC24 which I had a look at a few weeks ago was the fit and finish of the skin panels and paint. Absolutely flawless. It looked like the paint on a Bentley. Makes the new Cessna Citations loook like a HQ Holden from the 70's. That is something that non-pilot passengers really notice when they walk up to an aircraft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnYV92h2c3I&t=804s

[Capn Rex Havoc]

189KIAS. Nearjet. images/smilies/evil.gif

lol what IAS would your 717 do at FL450 Bloggsie?

RCoight- thanks for your views on the jet. I'm enjoying it.

When my previous company first got the A380, We had heaps of probs with the refuelling process, heaps of probs with the OITs and heaps of probs with avionics cooling. All were resolved over time and the 380 was a magnificent jet to fly. Teething problems are natural, and the Swiss mob will fix any niggles sure as ****.

[pithblot]

Rex
lol what IAS would your 717 do at FL450 Bloggsie?

Ask Bloggs for the numbers in the Miracle.

pithblot

[rcoight]

While it's not a PC24, the Phenom 300E is pretty close to identical in performance and fuel burn, so this is an interesting video to watch to give you an idea of the fuel flows at cruise. Interestingly you can get the Phenom down to 800 pph at 420ish kts which is similar to a Kingair 350 going flat chat at 310 kts.

One interesting thing about the PC24 which I had a look at a few weeks ago was the fit and finish of the skin panels and paint. Absolutely flawless. It looked like the paint on a Bentley. Makes the new Cessna Citations loook like a HQ Holden from the 70's. That is something that non-pilot passengers really notice when they walk up to an aircraft.

The Phenom 300 is a very nice looking aircraft. I parked next to one in Sydney the other day (see pic).
While I don't know much about them at all, I believe the Phenom has a little more speed and a little more range, but the -24 has a bigger cabin and better field performance.
You are spot on about the finish and attention to detail. It really is flawless and on another level to other light jets I've seen.

In the -24 we see fuel flows in the 800s during the last part of a long flight at FL450, but not quite right down at 800.
Both are great aircraft for sure, and as long as you go right up high, very efficient.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/img_0007_4a1e5186674730bab64321e6175d1ef45f14d680.jpg

[machtuk]

That parking spot looks famil in Syd, saw this 'freak' of aviation nature once in the same area, to think the RFDS SE section actually looked into this 'thing' as a replacement for the old Beech! -)
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1270x588/image_9da09025aaa5140b5c467fec8fbe0a5b30d8967a.jpeg

[Alice Kiwican]

That parking spot looks famil in Syd, saw this 'freak' of aviation nature once in the same area, to think the RFDS SE section actually looked into this 'thing' as a replacement for the old Beech! -)
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1270x588/image_9da09025aaa5140b5c467fec8fbe0a5b30d8967a.jpeg
So did Queensland Section I believe

[rcoight]

Pretty sure every section considered them, some more seriously than others.

I think I'm happy we went with the -24...

[Capt Fathom]

You have an interesting view on aviation Machtuk!

[machtuk]

Operating those 'things' would have been a disaster! The B200, won out due common sense!

[Capt Fathom]

Having never operated the P180’s, we will never know!

[rcoight]

When my previous company first got the A380, We had heaps of probs with the refuelling process, heaps of probs with the OITs and heaps of probs with avionics cooling. All were resolved over time and the 380 was a magnificent jet to fly. Teething problems are natural, and the Swiss mob will fix any niggles sure as ****.

Agreed. I don't think it's realistic to expect no teething problems on a brand new type, and there is nothing unusual or particularly worrying about the issues that some of the early aircraft have exposed.

The final product has met or exceeded every performance target. It's a delight to fly, with no vices.
I've done steep turns above FL400 and it's a total yawn.

Ultimately it's great to see several really new aircraft moving the bar of what can be done instead of endlessly thrashing a 50 year old design.

Oh - A380 best aircraft from a passenger perspective I've ever been in. Shame if we won't see them again.

[havick]

There is, but it’s the same as the -12NG with a few extra features.
Once you get used to it, it’s very intuitive, and incredibly useful.

Having said that, I remember thinking on the type rating that If I didn’t have the several thousand hours’ experience I already had with those avionics I’m not sure that I would have passed. I felt very sorry for the guys and girls coming from Garmin or Pro-line. It’s a hell of a lot to try to take in cold.

We had a couple of king air (steam driveen) pilots on my GVII initial that passed no problems. Avionics these days make things easier.

[megan]

189KIAS. Nearjet.Ask Bloggs for the numbers in the MiracleAnything that can't do 3.3M/500KEAS/85,000 is a nearjet. :E

Always recall this when humour about ones chariot start being made, not a true story as anyone who knows -71 ops will understand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AyHH9G9et0

[pithblot]

Thanks Megan.
Good story, true or not, it’s six minutes worth listening to.

[machtuk]

Beven around for ages but still funny👍

[601]

RAAF and Cobham don't mind changing a few windcreens on the Challengers.

Because of cracked screens or cracks in the thin outer layer?

[megle2]

There will be a new 24 based at Archerfield in the next few weeks

[Office Update]

Correct, long awaited PC-12 replacement VH-VTF will become a PC-24 with the same registration.
The new PC-24 was first seen at Stans, Switzerland on 28th June.

[Office Update]

PC-24 VH-JMU has left the country for the USA, not sure why but MT Aviation appear not to have a need for the aircraft.

[Squawk7700]

Has Simon taken delivery of his one yet?