UK ATCO Redundancies

[Amexgull]

So as the furlough scheme starts to wind down how big is the problem for UK ATCOs? There are rumours flying about EGTE, EGGP, EGSH and others making a significant number of ATCOs redundant. It would appear that the market will go from having a dearth of controllers to a glut. Is anyone recruiting?

[escaped.atco]

I've heard the rumours about EGTE and EGSH, didn't realise EGGP was doing the same. Does anyone know of numbers and what percentage this is of total staff? Still haven't heard if these are VR or CR and the actual reasons for staff reduction. It will be interesting to see as I don't think any of those units would be carrying surplus staff, the smaller units rarely do.

Strange how quickly the market can turn, only a short time from it being a definite controllers market! My guess is now ATCOs will stay at their present units for some time, any movement will probably be caused by retirements causing vacancies. The question is will airports simply absorb the tasks and carry on with less people to save cash?

[250 kts]

I've heard the rumours about EGTE and EGSH, didn't realise EGGP was doing the same. Does anyone know of numbers and what percentage this is of total staff? Still haven't heard if these are VR or CR and the actual reasons for staff reduction. It will be interesting to see as I don't think any of those units would be carrying surplus staff, the smaller units rarely do.

Strange how quickly the market can turn, only a short time from it being a definite controllers market! My guess is now ATCOs will stay at their present units for some time, any movement will probably be caused by retirements causing vacancies. The question is will airports simply absorb the tasks and carry on with less people to save cash?
And those rumours are?....

[2 sheds]

This must really be raising the morale at those units!

2 s

[Red Four]

I would suspect that any change in numbers will initially be through encouragement of retirement plans and non-replacement of leavers (or scrapping of plans to make up existing shortage on required numbers) for a year or so.

[mike current]

They're not rumours. There are consultations in place at many units, and reduced working hours at many more.

It's a long quiet winter ahead for aviation. People are still walking 2 metres off the pavement, never mind getting on a flight. With this sort of collective phobia going on, air travel has no chance of recovery.

[Amexgull]

Just seen an advert for an ATCO at Cranfield. I've heard it is not VR and it is not limited to those at the end of their careers, very much the opposite. EGGP appear to have got rid of a couple of the more senior guys and those ATCOs who only held a single ADI rating. With the blanket quarantine policy restricting recovery in the aviation sector I agree it will be a quiet winter...

[Fly Through]

HIAL still recruiting:

https://hialcareers.co.uk/

[Spambhoy]

HIAL still recruiting:

https://hialcareers.co.uk/

Look at the small print for the “blip driver” job description. They are already detailing the changes to terms and conditions and pay scales.

[Packer27L]

Look at the small print for the “blip driver” job description. They are already detailing the changes to terms and conditions and pay scales.
and the Sumburgh deputy SATCO has a provisio about moving to Inverness...may not be a good move if you like looking out of real windows!

[250 kts]

Just seen an advert for an ATCO at Cranfield. I've heard it is not VR and it is not limited to those at the end of their careers, very much the opposite. EGGP appear to have got rid of a couple of the more senior guys and those ATCOs who only held a single ADI rating. With the blanket quarantine policy restricting recovery in the aviation sector I agree it will be a quiet winter...
Hopefully "got rid" is that they agreed to take VR. I understand things at Edinburgh got a bit tense when a couple of older ATCOs, and we're talking late 60s declined to take a deal to go. It's finished up with all taking a reduction in hours and salary. Quite why any one would still want to be doing the job, no matter how pleasing it is, at that age is beyond me. Life really is too short!

[escaped.atco]

Hopefully "got rid" is that they agreed to take VR. I understand things at Edinburgh got a bit tense when a couple of older ATCOs, and we're talking late 60s declined to take a deal to go. It's finished up with all taking a reduction in hours and salary. Quite why any one would still want to be doing the job, no matter how pleasing it is, at that age is beyond me. Life really is too short!
Agree with the translation of "got rid", you would hope that someone within a year or so of retirement would grab a chance to take the ultimate early go and enjoy life. Hadn't heard that about EGPH, didn't even realise they had ATCOs in their late 60s! Why would any sane person not take a package to go at that age? That will make for a very uncomfortable working environment, don't suppose any of their "colleagues" will be going out of their way to do them any favours. Most ATCOs I know are planning how quickly they can retire while they still have the health to enjoy retirement. Is this maybe a case of fiscally aware Scots?:E

[The Fat Controller]

Maybe the older ATCOs at Edinburgh are those that moved from NATS to the new provider and longingly remember the bucket load of cash for NATS VR and their current employer is offering less.
Just speculation on my part.
With no prospect of putting their retirement travel plans in action, staying at work with low traffic must be quite appealing.

[250 kts]

Maybe the older ATCOs at Edinburgh are those that moved from NATS to the new provider and longingly remember the bucket load of cash for NATS VR and their current employer is offering less.
Just speculation on my part.
With no prospect of putting their retirement travel plans in action, staying at work with low traffic must be quite appealing.
I understand they are both NATS-both with many years' service. So assume both taking pension already as well as salary. Looks like they'll need extra pockets in their shrouds!

[escaped.atco]

Why is EGPH overstaffed? Are they the same staff that tuped across from NATS and no-one has left? Or did ANS recruit in the belief that a lot of original staff would leave? Don't recall seeing any recruitment taking place there over the last few years but may have missed it. No matter the cause, in my opinion its still better for everyone to take some pain to secure jobs rather than several getting CR, there are rarely any winners in a CR environment.

[250 kts]

Edinburgh would still be heavily overstaffed even if a couple of over 60s retired tomorrow.
ATC is a small world and there's no need to point the finger at individuals who are easily identifiable on a public forum. The employers' mismanagement of staffing levels is probably more of a factor in this, although it's easier to blame Dick and Harry for not retiring...
Ok point taken and my post changed to take into account your concerns. However I'm not too sure many of us would be happy to see some people at the start of their careers potentially be CR'd at the expense of those with limited years of service left remaining.

[terrain safe]

Ok point taken and my post changed to take into account your concerns. However I'm not too sure many of us would be happy to see some people at the start of their careers potentially be CR'd at the expense of those with limited years of service left remaining.
Actually I think it's a decision for each individual to make as they see fit. To 'blame' someone for not retiring, when in your opinion they should, is wrong as you do not know all the circumstances of their lives. Personally, if I could go I would, not because it helps another member of staff, but because I want to and that is all that matters in this case.

[Spambhoy]

Maybe the older ATCOs at Edinburgh are those that moved from NATS to the new provider and longingly remember the bucket load of cash for NATS VR and their current employer is offering less.
Just speculation on my part.
With no prospect of putting their retirement travel plans in action, staying at work with low traffic must be quite appealing.

Your probably right. The template was cast at Birmingham. All NATS staff were forewarned that the T&C’s with the new provider would bear no resemblance to the ones they were accustomed to. Those that could go left, the others took up several offers of relocation and the rest were effectively stuck where they where.I’ve heard similar for Gatwick and Edinburgh.

[chevvron]

Everyone is different. I'm in a position where I guess, technically, I'm retired - I no longer work full-time but I do a bit of work part-time because otherwise I'm bored and my brain starts to vegetate. Some think I'm a bit sad, but for the moment it suits me. Are my actions harming a young whipper-snapper's career or prospects? I don't think so, but from my point of view in the last few months there are a whole bunch of people entering my part of the business and offering services at fire-sale fees and maybe they think I am.


When I officially retired from NATS at age 60, I got so bored that within 2 weeks I got myself a part time job as a FISO so I don't think you're 'sad'; we all need to keep our brains working.

[Nimmer]

Personally I think it is a bit sad that people don’t have a”life” away from work, and thus get bored in “retirement”

I actually struggle to squeeze work in, oh well only 29 pay slips to go.

[justbeingnosey]

Fact is that by October everyone will be back. With traffic likely to be diminished severely until well into next year I cannot see operational staff escaping cuts. ATSA’s were deemed at risk before the pandemic, and I will be the first to admit that most times we are looking for something to do. Personally I hope VR is available soon

[tczulu]

Quite agree! I retired 7 years ago and while I miss many of the great people I worked with,I certainly don't miss the job. Bored? Not a chance!Probably sure we know each other,enjoy the next 29 months.😁

[almost professional]

Been retired just over a year, after 40 years I wasn't sure how I would cope but although I miss the people and the banter I have no compulsion to put on a headset! Yes I look up at the circuit at Eshott, or an overflight, with a ex professional eye, but its no more than curiosity - there is so much more to life, was perhaps the best decision I ever made and have no regrets about not carrying on into my sixties.

[250 kts]

Fact is that by October everyone will be back. With traffic likely to be diminished severely until well into next year I cannot see operational staff escaping cuts. ATSA’s were deemed at risk before the pandemic, and I will be the first to admit that most times we are looking for something to do. Personally I hope VR is available soon
You have my best wishes. Seeing a job disappear due to technology is bad enough, but then having the pandemic put further nails in the coffin must be really tough.

[nohold]

Just wondering, what does a 'blip driver' do and is it a worthwhile job?

The original description on the HIAL careers site is no longer showing.

...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fly Through View Post (https://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/634927-uk-atco-redundancies.html#post10868773)
HIAL still recruiting:

https://hialcareers.co.uk/
Look at the small print for the “blip driver” job description. They are already detailing the changes to terms and conditions and pay scales.

[Dan Dare]

a blip-driver (sometimes known as a pseudo-pilot) sits at the other end of the radio from a trainee controller pretending to be the pilots, manipulating the simulated aircraft the controller is working on radar or VCR before being set lose on the real ones. It probably doesn't have a long-term prospect in HIAL, but in NATS such jobs often lead to other positions and many ATCOs, ATSAs, simulator specialists and others started out there.

[nohold]

Many thanks. every day is a school day.

[Fly Through]

The ‘blippie’ job was to work in the new training/contingency centre in Inverness as part of the ATMS project so lots of career opportunities.

Speaking of which, vacancies for an assistant and 2 ADI/APS controllers at INV to be advertised shortly

Rgds,

FT

[TCAS FAN]

If there is anyone out there who got caught up in the Covid 19 layoffs and wants to have a more relaxed life I hear that Thruxton will shortly be looking for an Operations Manager to join their team. Its only A/G (so you will need an ROCC) with day to day management of the aerodrome so don't expect mega bucks.

[broken headset]

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/air-traffic-control-trainee-nats-redundant-b447250.html

[The Fat Controller]

And here is the same from the horse's mouth

https://nats.aero/blog/2020/09/covid-and-the-impact-on-controller-training/?fbclid=IwAR3QiNCrPLsjShiVuKT7v-g3HSjNMDcM2rbHm63KEXurt0J9OAYWtnACNQ0

[escaped.atco]

It seems a shame that these trainees couldn't have at least finished their course and been left with a student licence. At least they would have had something that might have helped.

Interesting prediction of traffic levels not recovering until 2024/25, that is a long time away. We can only assume that someone doing the figures has factored in natural wastage and worked out that these trainees will have no place for the foreseeable future. As airports approach NATS and other ANSPs with demands to reduce costs in order to ensure their own survival and competitiveness, it is difficult to know where this is all going. Ironically it may be more cost effective to get rid (early retirement, VR etc) of those older and more expensive ATCOs and replace them with trainees on a different contract. I would guess that if NATS had opened their recent VR program to ATCOs, there would have been a stampede for the door by a significant amount, that in turn would have left ample space for the newbies. My suspicion is that the current NATS model and generous T&Cs package is unsustainable, the problem as I have stated previously is that other ATCOs have always benchmarked against NATS. Once NATS decreases T&Cs then others will inevitably follow.

The only saving factor would be a dramatic and sustained aviation recovery, unfortunately this government doesn't seem to think aviation is worth saving at present.

[escaped.atco]

https://nats.aero/blog/2020/02/celebrating-our-apprentices/

Reading through this article is actually quite depressing. I really feel sorry for these trainees and can only hope they get the chance to fulfil their dreams some day.:sad:

[alfaman]

It seems a shame that these trainees couldn't have at least finished their course and been left with a student licence. At least they would have had something that might have helped.

Interesting prediction of traffic levels not recovering until 2024/25, that is a long time away. We can only assume that someone doing the figures has factored in natural wastage and worked out that these trainees will have no place for the foreseeable future. As airports approach NATS and other ANSPs with demands to reduce costs in order to ensure their own survival and competitiveness, it is difficult to know where this is all going. Ironically it may be more cost effective to get rid (early retirement, VR etc) of those older and more expensive ATCOs and replace them with trainees on a different contract. I would guess that if NATS had opened their recent VR program to ATCOs, there would have been a stampede for the door by a significant amount, that in turn would have left ample space for the newbies. My suspicion is that the current NATS model and generous T&Cs package is unsustainable, the problem as I have stated previously is that other ATCOs have always benchmarked against NATS. Once NATS decreases T&Cs then others will inevitably follow.

The only saving factor would be a dramatic and sustained aviation recovery, unfortunately this government doesn't seem to think aviation is worth saving at present.
I agree, it's horrible for those involved; unfortunately though, there'd be little benefit in completing the process to a student licence, as all those affected were on the area path. Their licence would have a limited value in isolation, they'd only get a credit for Basic, & the rating would only be of value to NATS, which is where we came in. The difficulty with opening the VR window to the operational world, is it puts the operation into immediate risk; those most likely to go, would be those needed either to train the new contingent, or relieve the OJTIs doing the training. It risks putting the company into uncomfortable & difficult terrain with its licence obligations, which no board could countenance. With nearly 300 still in the unit training system, the mitigation is there to make sure the operation can sustain for the time being, albeit it's still going to be very challenging.
I'm in two minds about the T&Cs: on the one hand, income is very much on a downward trend, & if it doesn't come in, it can't go out. On the other, we're again, like it or not, heading towards a situation of insufficient staff, what with natural wastage & the reduction in training capacity. When it does pick up, which it will, there'll be another shortage, which generally drives the price up. It's been the ATC cycle, since long before I joined.

[escaped.atco]

I didn't realise they were area students, that does put a different slant on things although for those affected doesn't make it any better!

Regarding T&Cs, the difficulty will be exactly as described, if the income doesn't come in then it can't go out. If airport A comes to the ANSP and says they can only afford eg 70% of the agreed price then where do the cuts come from? Inevitably it will be less ATCOs or else less expensive ATCOs, less ATCOs may not be feasible to keep the operation going ergo a reduction in T&Cs, perhaps on a temporary basis, will be the other option. Not very palatable but to simply refuse and risk losing everything is also not very palatable. It has the makings of a long winter and some painful conversations are coming, not just NATS but to everyone. We only need to look at our colleagues in the airlines to see the upheaval they have suffered, if we as ATCOs think we are immune then we would be very shortsighted. And I also agree, it is a cyclical process, this appears to have the makings of a particularly harsh downward part of it though. Certainly in the many years I've been working I haven't seen such uncertainty and general pessimism.

[Lemonair]

Terminated trainees are being told that NATS want to maintain a relationship with them, their training has only been paused and they want trainees to return. They should consider this whole situation as an (unpaid) holding period and not termination. They should also see it as NATS being 'generous' in giving the opportunity to find a new temporary career, get married, have kids etc. and generally have 2 years of freedom to carry on life outside of training....! The gift that keeps on giving, apparently!

[jmmoric]

Terminated trainees are being told that NATS want to maintain a relationship with them, their training has only been paused and they want trainees to return. They should consider this whole situation as an (unpaid) holding period and not termination. They should also see it as NATS being 'generous' in giving the opportunity to find a new temporary career, get married, have kids etc. and generally have 2 years of freedom to carry on life outside of training....! The gift that keeps on giving, apparently!

I hope for the trainees sake.

This could/would be a good time for the union to support those trainees, and hold the company to it's word later. Make sure the company gives them the chance later.

[escaped.atco]

Terminated trainees are being told that NATS want to maintain a relationship with them, their training has only been paused and they want trainees to return. They should consider this whole situation as an (unpaid) holding period and not termination. They should also see it as NATS being 'generous' in giving the opportunity to find a new temporary career, get married, have kids etc. and generally have 2 years of freedom to carry on life outside of training....! The gift that keeps on giving, apparently!
Please tell me you're being super sarcastic here? I know there has always been the suspicion that NATS managers are brainwashed clones of each other, but surely no-one would have the nerve to try and put a positive spin on this and sell it in a way that the terminated trainee will actually benefit from this?

[Lemonair]

Please tell me you're being super sarcastic here? I know there has always been the suspicion that NATS managers are brainwashed clones of each other, but surely no-one would have the nerve to try and put a positive spin on this and sell it in a way that the terminated trainee will actually benefit from this?

I'm afraid not. The word 'generous' was genuinely used. I imagine they were told to ham up the positive spin, and some of them decided to take this noticeably further than others.

[Hallucinogenix]

Job going at Cambridge just advertised today.

[Doody2007]

Link here to jobs at Oxford. ATCOs and ATCAs.

https://www.oxfordairport.co.uk/job-vacancies/

[chevvron]

GATCO have expressed concern that NATS have terminated the training of 122 trainee ATCOs who are now under threat of redundancy or re-deployment, some of them being within 2 weeks of completing training and receiving their Student ATCO licenses.
Long term this could lead to shortages as 'natural wastage' due to retirements, resignations, failure to achieve competency etc occur as traffic picks up in the wake of the slump caused by COVID 19..

[AyrTC]

I’m led to believe that there are over 200 Student controllers holding / on furlough at NATS just waiting for training to restart at units.

[Not Long Now]

Which is nowhere near the number needed in the next few years should traffic return to anywhere near 'normal'...

[escaped.atco]

Which is nowhere near the number needed in the next few years should traffic return to anywhere near 'normal'...
So what is the magic number? Truth is that no-one knows! If traffic remains static or thereabouts then I know my unit will not be recruiting. No imminent retirements, no-one seems that keen to move anywhere at the minute due to the whole uncertainty. The talk is still of career breaks and part time working amongst other cost saving rumours, recruitment is definitely on hold.

[mike current]

UK traffic is at -62% from this day in 2019 (if I read the eurocontrol stats correctly).
At the same time, aircaft are probably less than half full on average so airlines must be at least 70/80% down. This is not just a blip. It's long term damage.

Whatever that "magic" number is, we're a long way from it..

[escaped.atco]

Have to agree with the above comment. In the best case scenario the magic number of ATCOs will be achieved through natural wastage, what that number is and when it is reached is anyones guess. I suspect that many ANSPs will take the opportunity to reduce costs now that they have in effect a captive workforce, the days where you had a choice of several units to apply to have gone!

[Cleared For A Coffee]

Have to agree with the above comment. In the best case scenario the magic number of ATCOs will be achieved through natural wastage, what that number is and when it is reached is anyones guess. I suspect that many ANSPs will take the opportunity to reduce costs now that they have in effect a captive workforce, the days where you had a choice of several units to apply to have gone!

I’m sure you’re correct in the immediate term. However;

NATS recruitment frozen until God knows when.

Non NATS ain’t going to be sending people on courses unless absolutely necessary.

Doubt there will be many willing to risk leaving the mil to go civil any time soon.

Self funders? Forget it...

Can anyone else see where this is going?

Give it 2 years... oh no, we have no ATCOs again...

[Dan Dare]

“Oh no, we have no ATCOs again” seems to be an oft-repeated theme for every ANSP. Unfortunately managers get bonuses/promotions for costs saved rather than long-term planning for the health and safety of a company.

With three years from recruitment to validation we should be recruiting now, but instead we will repeat the errors which lead to our forthcoming retirement bulge. Running short-staffed also leads to further staff attrition - its no fun being overworked or overloaded with no possibility to split frequencies and you find that those that can leave/retire do.

[escaped.atco]

What exactly is the basis for the oft repeated phrase of "retirement bulge"? Genuine question, not having a go at anyone. I know many ATCOs in many units and no-one is living with an imminent staff shortage due retirements. Is this maybe a NATS thing? And if so, why?

[eagleflyer]

In Germany we´re probably going to loose about a quarter of the operational workforce into retirement over the next five years. Hence a massive recruitment effort was started pre-Covid, ab-initios for the most part plus a few ready-entries from abroad. I´m not sure whether we can afford to continue this effort in the short term, but if not we´ll pay for it in a couple of years. Again.
Anyway, to be honest, the current situation is not trivial. Management knows as much as anybody else how traffic levels will develop....
Even if recruitment would continue, there´s really no way we could properly train all those new guys and gals. Sectors have been collapsed for most of the last seven months and the few simulators can only do so much.
I´m sure mighty glad we were way understaffed before this sh.. started.

[Not Long Now]

During approx 91-93 NATS had a very large recruitment drive resulting in over 200 controllers per year being recruited, mainly in their early 20s. Even removing those who failed to validate, have left since etc., there still remain a large number of controllers, a large number of whom have left the DB scheme, now in their early 50s, and who may decide that, as they are able to access their pensions from age 55, retirement is a very real option. Granted the ‘new normal’ conditions may have changed this perception to some extent, but there remains a very high number of controllers at least theoretically able to retire in the next 3-7 years.

[Red Four]

Isn't the pension access age going up to 57 now/shortly?

[Del Prado]

Isn't the pension access age going up to 57 now/shortly?

Yes but only for people born after ?1978? (Exact date not yet decided)

[Red Four]

Thanks, I hadn't realised it was only from a certain age group.
...Exact date not yet decided
That indecision is not great from the financial planning point of view.

[escaped.atco]

Winter schedules have now been published, now that we have a better idea of what winter traffic levels will be like and now that most airports know the amount of financial struggles they face, has any ANSP decided on effective cost saving measures yet? I'm hearing of some airports reducing hours, this will obviously affect rostered cover required which in turn equals less ATCOs needed in the short term. There were murmurings of enhanced retirement packages a while ago to encourage those near the age to leave early, also talk of 2/3 working time and 1/2 working time etc. Nothing seems to have actually happened though - not sure if thats good or bad!

[mike current]

Stansted and East Mids are back to being in the top 3 busiest UK airports during the week, (ABZ probably up there too, but Eurocontrol stats don't show heli flights) which is what was happening back in April and May. Cargo & mail are the only things keeping the aviation figures up.
I don't think anyone who worked through the dire situation back then expected to see the same again so soon. Which of course is compounded by the natural slow down for winter.

[terrain safe]

Stansted has been second busiest for a few months now so it's not just cargo. Ryanair are flying as much as they can.

[justbeingnosey]

Stansted has been second busiest for a few months now so it's not just cargo. Ryanair are flying as much as they can.
just been listening to a money programme looking at the losses incurred by travel industry. BA losing £50 million a day! They said airports were losing vast amounts of money. Said NATS hadn’t responded for information but the losses again are believed to be huge

[escaped.atco]

The losses that airlines are dealing with are colossal, the sorts of figures that probably most of our high street businesses would already have collapsed from - yet the government seems content to watch it happen, strange. And no, I don't know the answer to fix it! The government today is apparently talking about another full lockdown, more pressure on aviation.

The airline losses will be impacting the airports financial status who in turn will be looking for cuts. Whats the biggest expenditure of a typical airport? Anyone want to take a bet that ATC provision has to be near the top of the list in most cases? Whats the biggest expenditure of a typical ANSP contract? That'll be those pesky expensive controllers, to quote from Game of Thrones - winter is coming.

[terrain safe]

escaped.atco. I'm not quite sure why you keep talking down ATC. It is an expensive part of the infrastructure but is essential. If you cut staff, it is very difficult to get back to a position where you can operate as you were last year. If you cut wages then some staff will just retire early, again leaving you short in the future. And let's face it, the ATC business was looking into an abyss of being short of staff before this crisis. Also, why would new people come in, devote their entire career to the job, when what was previously a good secure job, has now become insecure especially when you are training for 2 years before even having a chance of validating on a lower salary than before. Basically, it's the last part of the operation to cut back too much. It takes years to get an operation able to operate at an airfield that can shift 40-50 aircraft an hour all the time. You can't cut it and then suddenly turn the tap on again. Maybe if this situation lasts for a lot longer then there will be cuts, but it will be one of the last things to be cut. Just my opinion.

[escaped.atco]

I don't mean to talk ATC down, I do believe however that as a group we need to be realistic regarding the state of our industry. Pilots are essential, they were also expensive, they have borne the brunt of cost cutting in many companies - both job cuts and degraded T&Cs. Ground handlers are also essential, they are relatively inexpensive, they have also borne a heavy price in job cuts. I suppose my point is that as a group we cannot expect to survive this crisis unscathed - thats not talking ATC down, its just my opinion that everyone within aviation will be affected in now way or another. When someone gets in their head that they're essential and effectively untouchable then thats a dangerous place to be. Remember every business is run by accountants - people that know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. If they can save a few quid over a relatively short term period then the problems in a few years will be just that - not something to worry about just now. I have sat in meetings with airport managers and believe me they only see the large wage bill from ATC, if it can be reduced then they really don't care the potential issues that might be there at a later time.

I take great pride in my profession, always have done. Ultimately though the older I get the more I realise we are just numbers on a spreadsheet in an accountants office.

[Atlantic Explorer]

I don't mean to talk ATC down, I do believe however that as a group we need to be realistic regarding the state of our industry. Pilots are essential, they were also expensive, they have borne the brunt of cost cutting in many companies - both job cuts and degraded T&Cs. Ground handlers are also essential, they are relatively inexpensive, they have also borne a heavy price in job cuts. I suppose my point is that as a group we cannot expect to survive this crisis unscathed - thats not talking ATC down, its just my opinion that everyone within aviation will be affected in now way or another. When someone gets in their head that they're essential and effectively untouchable then thats a dangerous place to be. Remember every business is run by accountants - people that know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. If they can save a few quid over a relatively short term period then the problems in a few years will be just that - not something to worry about just now. I have sat in meetings with airport managers and believe me they only see the large wage bill from ATC, if it can be reduced then they really don't care the potential issues that might be there at a later time.

I take great pride in my profession, always have done. Ultimately though the older I get the more I realise we are just numbers on a spreadsheet in an accountants office.

Completely agree with that. Aviation right now is undergoing a ‘reset’ like never before. There have and will have to be cuts/ savings in every aspect of aviation, nobody is safe. There is no sign of any recovery right now and the losses just continue to compound exponentially. It’s a dire situation.

[mike current]

I take great pride in my profession, always have done. Ultimately though the older I get the more I realise we are just numbers on a spreadsheet in an accountants office.
The current situation, for once, has nothing to do with accountants.

At the moment we are gardeners looking after concrete blocks. The only thing keeping us in a job is the hope that there'll be a garden again.

It's unsustainable.

[escaped.atco]

I think the current situation had nothing to do with accountants as far as cause goes, but everything to do with accountants as to how its handled. Can you imagine contract negotiations over the foreseeable future? The accountant will be saying what they can afford and what they are prepared to pay, it will be up to the ATC provider to work out how to make it fit. I refer back to my previous post, the biggest part of any contract is in all probability is the wages bill. An uncomfortable fact but there we are.:hmm:

[Del Prado]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/nov/10/ryanair-expects-air-passenger-numbers-to-bounce-back-in-2021

I imagine Mr. O’Leary will be the first to shout when there isn’t the capacity to match demand.

[justbeingnosey]

Feeling a bit in limbo now, tempted to start a business venture. Genuinely worried that ATSA’s jobs could be unsustainable, on the other hand don’t want to walk away if redundancy package is coming. Any thoughts people

[escaped.atco]

justbeingnosey, not sure who exactly you work for but I'm hearing the threats of cutbacks have been reduced by a very large ANSP in the UK. They have seen fit to pay out bonuses to all staff and an extra bonus to management grades? This is just after paying out a large amount of VR packages with amounts that would settle the debt of a small third world country! It must warm the hearts of all the employees to know that even in these times of fiscal hardship that the gravy train has not yet been derailed. Should make for some interesting conversations at the next round of contract renewals though! :ugh:

[Cleared For A Coffee]

I’m sure you’re correct in the immediate term. However;

NATS recruitment frozen until God knows when.

Non NATS ain’t going to be sending people on courses unless absolutely necessary.

Doubt there will be many willing to risk leaving the mil to go civil any time soon.

Self funders? Forget it...

Can anyone else see where this is going?

Give it 2 years... oh no, we have no ATCOs again...

Turns out it didn’t even take 2 years.

Who’d have thought it?

[Surferboy]

Across the pond even without ditching our trainees we're short again. This is going to be an interesting market for anyone willing to shop around I guess.

[Captain Beef]

In Australia we’ve gone from reduced and standby rosters during the height of lock-downs, followed by a redundancy program, to multiple shifts that available for overtime that have to be filled on every group. Multiple towers are closing early most nights because the staff simply don’t exist anymore.

[escaped.atco]

And so the cycle continues. I have seen it many times over my career as have many others on this forum I'd guess. Each time previously, wages have invariably gone up as ATCOs migrate to where they can get the best deal and lifestyle, smaller units struggle as the larger units hoover up the best qualified. Its lucky NATS have plenty of trainees that they pushed through last year just waiting to be given live training and validated, that'll help the shortage. Or maybe not, if I recall they sacked all their trainees while at the same time handing out large redundancy payments to non-operational staff!:ugh:

[mike current]

Each time previously, wages have invariably gone up

They certainly ain't going up this time around :uhoh: not for the time being anyway

[chevvron]

And so the cycle continues. I have seen it many times over my career as have many others on this forum I'd guess. Each time previously, wages have invariably gone up as ATCOs migrate to where they can get the best deal and lifestyle, smaller units struggle as the larger units hoover up the best qualified. Its lucky NATS have plenty of trainees that they pushed through last year just waiting to be given live training and validated, that'll help the shortage. Or maybe not, if I recall they sacked all their trainees while at the same time handing out large redundancy payments to non-operational staff!:ugh:
Happened back in 1968.
I had just been selected for Air Traffic Control Assistant (ATCA; the 'old' name for ATSAs) duties in December 1967 by the Board of Trade; suddenly the government decided there would be a wholesale 'freeze' on ALL civil service recruitment (including ATCOs and ATCAs) for 12 months and I wasn't called forward until January 1969.