Black Lancasters

[tartare]

Has this been publicised before?
Fascinating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XX9ptCNpik

[Buster Hyman]

Always enjoy Mark Feltons videos.

[Lordflasheart]

...
I think this thread in Hist & Nost may possibly be on the same subject -

https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/634636-really.html
...

[NutLoose]

Aeroplane Monthly August 2020 covers the story, part of the problem was the length of the weapon needed to get it to work, I seem to remember it was distance to accelerate the charge up to speed, and hence the need for a lanc, but it was eventually resolved.

https://shop.keypublishing.com/issue/View/issue/AM568/aeroplane-monthly-aug-2020

[737bomar]

sorry I thought this was BLM
black
lancasters
matter

[Fareastdriver]

If you are going to drop an atom bomb from a dodgy height the last colour you paint your aeroplane is black

[Herod]

From the height and speed the Lancaster would have dropped, I don't think the colour would have mattered much.

[wiggy]

From the height and speed the Lancaster would have dropped, I don't think the colour would have mattered much.


Nevertheless such was briefly considered...
Scientists working on the atomic bomb quickly realized that the unusual size and weight of the devices--both the tubular "gun-type fission weapon" shape (Little Boy) and the oval plutonium implosion weapon shape (Fat Man)--would be too large to be delivered by a conventional bomber such as the B-17 or the B-24. In October 1943, Dr. Norman Ramsey, a member of the Los Alamos National Laboratory Group, suggested that the only airplane in the U.S. inventory capable of carrying either type of the proposed weapons shapes was the B-29 Superfortress. Even the B-29, however, would require extensive modifications to both its engines and its bomb bay in order to accommodate the enormous weapon.

Prior to the decision to use the B-29, military officials had given serious consideration to using the British Avro Lancaster to deliver the weapon, which the Royal Air Force had used to deliver the 5-ton Tallboy bombs developed in 1944. The Avro Lancaster would have required much less modification, but Major General Leslie Groves, the commander of the Manhattan Project, and General Henry H. Arnold, the Chief of United States Army Air Forces, wished to use an American plane.


https://www.atomicheritage.org/history/project-silverplate

[WB627]

Hap Arnold, the man that nearly got the whole world nuked in the Cuban missile crisis, because he only had ONE nuclear plan…. BOMB EVERYONE, even those not involved in the confrontation. JFK Sacked him when he found out that was his ONLY plan.

You get the impression that he would have rather have not dropped the bomb, than let the RAF do it with a British plane.

[Mach2]

WB627
Hap Arnold died in 1950, so had nothing to do with JFK. Surely it was Curtis Le May who clashed with JFK and McNamara, by wanting to bomb Cuba and, later, North Vietnam.

[WB627]

WB627
Hap Arnold died in 1950, so had nothing to do with JFK. Surely it was Curtis Le May who clashed with JFK and McNamara, by wanting to bomb Cuba and, later, North Vietnam.

Yup :O my bad. And apologies to Hap Arnold

[Flugplatz]

The back-up possibility to use a Lancaster is mentioned in General Grove's account of the Manhattan Project "Now it can be told" (https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/170428.Now_It_Can_Be_Told) A great read from a management perspective with all the various challenges and obstacles that had to be overcome. Should be required reading at Staff College in my opinion. General Groves was selected for the project due to his excellent reputation and recent work overseeing the building of the Pentagon (as a Major). He did get promoted to Lt Col for the Manhattan Project and later on to General during the project.

[ColinB]

The B-29 Superfortress "Silverplates" were designed around the two atomic bombs.

During World War II, the 509th Composite Group included 15 B-29s with special "Silverplate" modifications, and 1,800 men. The Silverplate B-29s had modifications necessary to deliver atomic weapons, which included an extensively modified bomb bay with pneumatic doors, special propellors, modified engines and the deletion of protective armour and gun turrets.

The group was commanded by Paul Tibbets who was one of the first pilots to complete a European tour, He was then a test pilot on the B-29 before being hand-picked to train and lead the bomb group.

The USA controlled all facets of the Atomic Bomb delivery and manufacture. The idea that they would hand it over to the RAF to deliver in their under-powered and obsolescent Lancasters is derisory. The B29 was a mature, next generation device and was in front line use (See the pictures of the hundreds of them on the four runways at Tinian)

I always thought that Lancasters at Enstone were used in flight refuelling tests.for ETO

[GeeRam]

The USA controlled all facets of the Atomic Bomb delivery and manufacture. The idea that they would hand it over to the RAF to deliver in their under-powered and obsolescent Lancasters is derisory. The B29 was a mature, next generation device and was in front line use (See the pictures of the hundreds of them on the four runways at Tinian)

I think you're missing the point that, as designed the B-29 couldn't drop the bombs....and at the time, it wasn't known *if* Boeing could re-design the aircraft to do so, due to the spar mods, hence the contingency plan for using Lancs.
I'm not sure though that the contingency plan to use Lancs ever included using RAF crews though......?

[SLXOwft]

Would it have made more sense if they have intended to use something similar to the short lived Lancaster Mk VIs, the two-stage supercharger Merlins of which gave a reputed 313 mph top speed and 28,000' service ceiling for a 65,000 lb TOW? There are various versions of what they were used for beyond a Pathfinder/Master Bomber role and they were also used for development/trials after withdrawal from the front line. "...surviving aircraft were used by Rolls-Royce, the Royal Aircraft Establishment and the Bomb Ballistics Unit (BBU) for various testing and experimental duties." The history of the B VI seems very confused with FF dates in both '43 and ''44 quoted, different numbers produced/converted, and higher top speeds, JB713 is believed to have out run an intercepting Ju88 returning from a raid on Berlin. So could the Black Lancs have been additional B VIs (or an unknown different B III conversion) lost in the paper work?

[etudiant]

Would any Lancaster variant have had the range to reach Japan from Tinian with a 10,000 pound payload?

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Sounds like some of the respondents here need to actually watch the programme.

[megan]

I'm not sure though that the contingency plan to use Lancs ever included using RAF crews thoughThe plan was to use a US crew. If you wish to crunch numbers re Lanc range here is a starting point.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/Lancaster/Lancaster_I_PD435_Performance.pdf

[ColinB]

Hap Arnold died in 1950, so had nothing to do with JFK. Surely it was Curtis Le May who clashed with JFK and McNamara, by wanting to bomb Cuba and, later, North Vietnam.

The same Curtis Lemay was the Vice Presidential Republican candidate at the 1964 election along with Barry Goldwater!

[ColinB]

I think you're missing the point that, as designed the B-29 couldn't drop the bombs....and at the time, it wasn't known *if* Boeing could re-design the aircraft to do so, due to the spar mods, hence the contingency plan for using Lancs.
I'm not sure though that the contingency plan to use Lancs ever included using RAF crews though......?
The B-29 Silverplate could and did carry both of the atomic devices successfully. It is not generally appreciated the great difference in sizes and shapes of the two bombs one uranium based and the other plutonium. The Trinity test and the two bombs were all detonated in 3-4 weeks. The Group on Tinian had been training for a long period and delivered the bombs within days of receipt.
There is a wealth of information on the admirable Atomic Heritage Foundation website with many unique photographs.
I am an admirer of the program maker and enjoy his programs but this particular one seems to be fostering yet another urban legend.
Apologies if I have expressed this clumsily

[NutLoose]

It wasn’t the bombs used, but the original envisaged weapon that caused the problems and hence the requirement for the
Lanc

[Milarity]

"The group was commanded by Paul Tibbets who was one of the first pilots to complete a European tour, He was then a test pilot on the B-29 before being hand-picked to train and lead the bomb group".
And Paul Tibbets named his aircraft after his mother, Enola Gay Tibbets.

[ROC man]

The backup plan for the Lancaster may have been from 1943 but by 1945 the Avro Lincoln was in advanced development and the performance figures aren't so far off the B-29. So it may have been possible to rush a lighter unarmed Lincoln into service if required. Maybe.

[Airbubba]

Hap Arnold, the man that nearly got the whole world nuked in the Cuban missile crisis, because he only had ONE nuclear plan…. BOMB EVERYONE, even those not involved in the confrontation. JFK Sacked him when he found out that was his ONLY plan.

The same Curtis Lemay was the Vice Presidential Republican candidate at the 1964 election along with Barry Goldwater!

Hope you fellers didn't major in American History. ;)

[megan]

Arnold died 15 Jan 1950, so wasn't around at the time.

LeMay told the President that the resolution of the Cuban crisis was the "greatest defeat in our history"; his was a minority position. He had pressed for an immediate invasion of Cuba as soon as the crisis began and still favoured invading Cuba even after the Soviets had withdrawn their missiles. Twenty-five years later, LeMay still believed that "We could have gotten not only the missiles out of Cuba, we could have gotten the Communists out of Cuba at that time." Wiki re Vice presidential candidacy, 1968,Early political life and developments - Because of his unrelenting opposition to the Johnson administration's Vietnam policy and what was widely perceived as his hostility to Robert McNamara, LeMay was essentially forced into retirement in February 1965. Moving to California, he was approached by conservatives to challenge moderate Republican Thomas Kuchel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Kuchel) for his seat in the United States Senate in 1968, but he declined
For the 1968 presidential election, LeMay originally supported former Republican Vice President Richard Nixon; he turned down two requests by former Alabama Governor George Wallace to join his newly formed American Independent Party, that year, on the grounds that a third-party candidacy might hurt Nixon's chances at the polls. (By coincidence, Wallace had served as a sergeant in a unit commanded by LeMay during World War II before LeMay had Wallace transferred to the 477th Bombardment Group.)Subsequently LeMay, while being fully aware of Wallace's segregationist platform, decided to throw his support to Wallace and eventually became Wallace's running mate.

Wallace's staff began to consider LeMay to be "politically tone-deaf" and the former Air Force General did nothing to diminish the perception of extremism that some American voters had of the Wallace-LeMay ticket.

The "bomb them back to the stone age" comment received significant publicity but LeMay disclaimed the comment, saying in a later interview: "I never said we should bomb them back to the Stone Age. I said we had the capability to do it".

The Wallace-LeMay AIP ticket received 13.5% of the popular vote, higher than most third party candidacies in the US, and carried five states for a total of 46 electoral votes

[ColinB]

Ths is a most interesting and relevant thread

https://www.airfieldresearchgroup.org.uk/forum/airfield-discussion/16671-enstone-s-black-lancasters-again#166936?jjj=1597569046323

[ColinB]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColinB View Post (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/634697-black-lancasters-post10861515.html#post10861515)
The same Curtis Lemay was the Vice Presidential Republican candidate at the 1964 election along with Barry Goldwater!
Hope you fellers didn't major in American History.
I should of course have checked that he was George Wallace's running mate in 1968