Lt(jg) Maddy Swegle USN

[ORAC]

https://youtu.be/4kU2CWf1ihY

[Chris Kebab]

Be great when an event such as this is a normal occurrence and no longer newsworthy.

[Herod]

Agreed, Chris, but at least in this case we know she got there on merit, and not "positive discrimination". That's the sort of job where you can't make up numbers to look good. Wishing her a long, successful career.

[Islandlad]

Agreed, Chris, but at least in this case we know she got there on merit, and not "positive discrimination". That's the sort of job where you can't make up numbers to look good. Wishing her a long, successful career.
I too wish her every success and a long, successful career.

However, Herod, I take issue with your statement. Sadly, the numbers were made to look good many years. The outcome was not a good one.

Kara Spears Hultgreen (5 October 1965 – 25 October 1994)
Such things have happened before. And I checked again before posting this.

[charliegolf]

I too wish her every success and a long, successful career.

However, Herod, I take issue with your statement. Sadly, the numbers were made to look good many years. The outcome was not a good one.

Kara Spears Hultgreen (5 October 1965 – 25 October 1994)
Such things have happened before. And I checked again before posting this.

Maybe Herod assumes, like me, that Hultgreen ensured it can't happen again?

CG

[denachtenmai]

Kara Spears Hultgreen (5 October 1965 – 25 October 1994)
Such things have happened before. And I checked again before posting this.

Hmmm, "Callsign Revlon" tends to disagree with you.

[Islandlad]

Hmmm, "Callsign Revlon" tends to disagree with you.
Bringing the subject up was always going to be controversial. When does a trainee become a fighter pilot?

[West Coast]

Bringing the subject up was always going to be controversial. When does a trainee become a fighter pilot?

She’s not a trainee, she has her wings of gold.

[tartare]

"...I suspect someone in the DOD saw a quick way to capitalise on the recent BLM crap.

Really?
Maybe she's just damn good and deserves it.
Sheesh.
Respect Mam - and it is an awesome achievement.
Well done.

[T28B]

Go to 1:07 in the video.
"It's fun because it is difficult"

Isn't that a part of why any of us got into this profession?

Welcome, LTjg Swegle, to this small and elite collection of mad, aviating humans.

You'll fit in just fine.

[megan]

When does a trainee become a fighter pilot?She’s not a trainee, she has her wings of goldHaving the wings is just the first step, you're considered a trainee until completing training to be an operational pilot, once they have completed RAG training. The RAG (replacement air group), also known as a fleet replacement squadron (FRS), is the last stop on the training pipeline for pilots. This is where pilots become proficient on their assigned aircraft. They learn the ins and outs as well as the dos and don'ts of their specific aircraft. The aviators will encounter very similar stages to those they completed in the advanced flight training stage they have just graduated from. For all pilots that will be operative from ships, carrier landing flights will be among the most routine, as well as practicing emergency situation and combat flying. I'd have thought that anyone in the military sporting pilot wings could be described as a fighter pilot, fighting being the military raison d'être. :p

Congratulations Lass, be thinking of you tomorrow when they pin you with those Wings of Gold. Hope you get the posting/aircraft you wish for.

[denachtenmai]

Bringing the subject up was always going to be controversial. When does a trainee become a fighter pilot?


Islandlad, have you read the book? Kara was a pilot, in a fighter squadron, embarked on a carrier, are you implying that she didn't get there on merit?

[Harley Quinn]

Islandlad, have you read the book? Kara was a pilot, in a fighter squadron, embarked on a carrier, are you implying that she didn't get there on merit?

That may be a possibility; positive discrimination may have been a factor -

An Accuracy in Media (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_in_Media) article quotes CDR Tom Sobiek, commanding officer of Fighter Squadron VF-124, as saying of the four female pilots in his squadron, "The women are going to graduate regardless of how they performed" and "the Navy was in a race with the Air Force to get the first female fighter pilot". It quotes Sobiek denying making any such statement. "That is a flat **** lie," he said. "And whoever told you that, if they were under oath, should be taken to task." Several of the instructors, however, testified to the contrary. During a subsequent interview with Mike Wallace of CBS "60 Minutes," Sobiek finally admitted that he had made statements that may have conveyed the impression that the women would not be allowed to fail. He added that some female pilots were advanced in combat aviation ahead of many men who were kept waiting or forced to resign. ("60 Minutes," April 19, 1998)

[ORAC]

She has not made it to the top. She has made it to the same point as other trainees, based on ability and hard work, the same as everyone.
But it’s not everyone - it’s the few of the few. And it might not be the top of the highest mountain - but when you reach one peak and look over at the next it’s still the top of the one you set out to climb, and where you set your sights on your next mountain.....

[ORAC]

https://www.navy.mil/Press-Office/News-Stories/display-news/Article/2296877/us-navys-first-black-female-tactical-air-pilot-earns-wings-of-gold-in-texas

US Navy’s First Black Female Tactical Air Pilot Earns Wings of Gold in Texas

Virginia native Lt. j.g. Madeline G. Swegle was designated a naval aviator and received her Wings of Gold with 25 classmates during a small ceremony at Naval Air Station (NAS) Kingsville, Texas......

Swegle will report to the “Vikings” of Electronic Attack Squadron (VAQ) 129 (https://www.public.navy.mil/airfor/vaq129/Pages/default.aspx) at NAS Whidbey Island in Washington to begin training as an EA-18G Growler pilot......

[finestkind]

You can claim all you want that at this time merit was the reason someone achieved whatever but it is a fact that positive discrimination has placed people in positions that they would not have gained without this positive discrimination. The downside of this is that previously, in other areas, where these minorities have achieved on merit will now loose merit. I have seen/worked with people who have deservedly achieved what they have but now those that follow and been given these position not through ability but positive discrimination have diluted these achievements because it will be seen as gaining this position due to their gender or race, and not ability. Unfortunately, now, that will also taint those that do have the ability and have achieved whatever position they are in as it will be seen as having been given to them.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Hard to say there is positive discrimination if it took over 30 years for the Navy to have ONE black female fast air pilot. As for Lt Hultgreen, why is she vilified when there have been plenty of male pilots with major Fu*kups who got a pass ?

[Lonewolf_50]

You can claim all you want that at this time merit was the reason someone achieved whatever but it is a fact that positive discrimination has placed people in positions that they would not have gained without this positive discrimination. Back off, sport. Now. Stand down.

You are crapping on someone who did that hard thing: try to drink through a fire hose. I am painfully familiar with the accountant/bean counter initiative to reduce the T-45 syllabus "length" by "ten percent" due to it being "so costly" to train fast jet pilots.

Her predecessors in Fast Jet Land got to fly T-2 and A-4 (CQing in both) before the bean counting scum tried to make it all more "cost effective" - and the original T-45 syllabus did that due to good use of better sims and syllabus design that applied about 60 years of lessons learned in pilot training.

And then the accountants got involved. They took what "was" in the expensively designed T-45 syllabus and claimed that a 10% (actually, more than 10%) reduction in syllabus length was somehow justified. (morons, and not a one an aviator). Not on aviation grounds, but on fiscal grounds.

You gotta a lotta damn nerve to throw any shade on her or any of her contemporaries.
Get bent.

BigPistonsForever
As for Lt Hultgreen, why is she vilified when there have been plenty of male pilots with major Fu*kups who got a pass ?
I had the same question. People with two balls have died hitting the boat since about the time the damned boat was invented. She did not deserve the crap storm that attended her untimely death.
That whole carrier aviation thing?
It's hard.
I have multiple friends and colleagues who died from it.

[eagle 86]

Settle Petal your expletive deleted downpour was unnecessary when replying to someone whose views you happen to disagree with.
I was in military flying training for over 30 years and have seen both sides of the coin.
Back off or don't post.
E86

[Lonewolf_50]

Back off or don't post.
E86 Back yourself off.
Next time you choose to defend the indefensible, which is where my bite was directed...
but it is a fact that positive discrimination has placed people in positions that they would not have gained without this positive discrimination. instead go and lube up your cyclic and then sit on it. Or, take your own advice and 'don't post.'

This junior officer got trotted out by the Public Affairs gang, who chose to highlight her achievement for their own/political purposes, and she put a good face on it. None of that, being a good soldier/sailor/officer, and doing as your chain of command bids you, is justification for anyone in our fraternity - military aviation - to denigrate her qualification to be there. (PS: you might want to do a bit of due diligence: she's an Annapolis grad, which has its own culling mechanisms long before flight school ever happens)

[finestkind]

Back off, sport. Now. Stand the f*** down.

You are crapping on someone who did that hard thing: try to drink through a fire hose. I am painfully familiar with the accountant/bean counter initiative to reduce the T-45 syllabus "length" by "ten percent" due to it being "so costly" to train fast jet pilots.

Her predecessors in Fast Jet Land got to fly T-2 and A-4 (CQing in both) before the bean counting scum tried to make it all more "cost effective" - and the original T-45 syllabus did that due to good use of better sims and syllabus design that applied about 60 years of lessons learned in pilot training.

And then the accountants got involved. They took what "was" in the expensively designed T-45 syllabus and claimed that a 10% (actually, more than 10%) reduction in syllabus length was somehow justified. (morons, and not a one an aviator). Not on aviation grounds, but on fiscal grounds.

You gotta a lotta damn nerve to throw any shade on her or any of her contemporaries.
F*** off.
And stay f**'ed.

I bow to your well-presented, logical, and factual argument. And I understand your frothing at the mouth due to bean counters destabilizing an established and well proven training environment. Just confirm you do live in the land of free speech? Or is it the one where if you don’t agree with me or say something I find disagreeable I’ll blow you away?

Read it again Fred. “Someone” is the giveaway. I did not say Lt(jg) Maddy Swegle USN is only there because she is female.

No specific shade on her but certainly on contemporaries. In our world where due to lack of representation of the population based on gender, race and religion, standards have changed to allow more percentage based representation. I did not specify that this person got where she was without ability. I did state that this is the case in a lot of areas and that this dilutes her achievements when people continually see people given/placed in position not based on their ability but based on positive discrimination. Indefensible? Really what world do you live in if you do not believe that positive discrimination is at work. I have no problem with the situation where there are applicants that are similar in qual’s with the position being given based on this. I do have a gripe with positions being given to people, based on positive discrimination, when there are significantly better applicants that are passed over to meet the Politicians demands. The end result of this is we have people failing, which is good for no-one, not the company (read military) nor the individual. Or people being passed based on rearranged standards. If you do not think this happens, well being blind to reality is to be pitied.

[finestkind]

Hard to say there is positive discrimination if it took over 30 years for the Navy to have ONE black female fast air pilot. As for Lt Hultgreen, why is she vilified when there have been plenty of male pilots with major Fu*kups who got a pass ?This is the reason for positive discrimination. To open the door for those minorities that have not even considered this career pathway (or in the case of King Hussein to get his people into the mind set of earning via working). But you either ante up and take the hurt by diluting the standards to get people in these careers. Thereby attracting more to walk through the door and acknowledge the considerable risk associated with this from having weaker links in the chain too never being able to re-establish the standard to what it once was. Or stay with the current system.



As for Lt Hultgreen, vilification is totally unjustified. This is where professionalism is supposed to come in by identifying the chain of events that contributed or lead to the accident.

[eagle 86]

Petal just wondering why you can't have a reasoned argument without plumbing the dephs and displaying a side of your character you can't control.
E86

[Islandlad]

A time line not checked for accuracy -

Wesley Anthony Brown (April 3, 1927 – May 22, 2012) was the first African-American graduate of the United States Naval Academy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Naval_Academy) (USNA) in Annapolis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annapolis), Maryland. He served in the United States Navy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy) from May 2, 1944, until June 30, 1969. He was involved in both the Korean (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War) and Vietnam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War) wars.

1944 - The commissioning of the Navy’s first two African-American female officers. WAVES (https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/browse-by-topic/wars-conflicts-and-operations/world-war-ii/1942/manning-the-us-navy/waves_75th.html)—Women Accepted for Volunteer Emergency Service, or, essentially, the women’s reserve branch of the Navy—selected the two most capable African-American recruits: Harriet Ida Pickens and Frances Eliza Wills, two highly accomplished women of New York City

Jesse LeRoy Brown (October 13, 1926 – December 4, 1950) was a United States Navy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy) officer. He was the first African-American aviator (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_aviator) to complete the U.S. Navy's basic flight training program, was a recipient of the Distinguished Flying Cross (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinguished_Flying_Cross_(United_States)), and the first African-American naval officer killed in the Korean War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War).


In Annapolis, Maryland (https://www.history.com/topics/us-states/maryland), the United States Naval Academy admits women for the first time in its history with the induction of 81 female midshipmen. In May 1980, Elizabeth Anne Rowe became the first woman member of the class to graduate.

Barbara Ann Allen Rainey (August 20, 1948 – July 13, 1982) was one of the first six female pilots in the U.S. armed forces. Rainey received her wings of gold as the first female to be designated a naval aviator (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_aviator) in February 1974 and became the first Navy woman to qualify as a jet pilot. She attained the rank of Lieutenant Commander (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieutenant_commander_(United_States)) in the United States Navy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy)

1980 - Brenda E. Robinson, the first Black female naval aviator, who earned her Wings of Gold in 1980.

Kara Spears Hultgreen (5 October 1965 – 25 October 1994) was a lieutenant and naval aviator (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_aviator) in the United States Navy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Navy) and the first female carrier-based fighter pilot in the U.S. Navy.


2020 - Lt. j.g. Madeline "Maddy" Swegle - The U.S. Navy's first Black female Tactical Aircraft pilot will receive her "Wings of Gold" during a ceremony in Kingsville, Texas..

[Lonewolf_50]

I do have a gripe with positions being given to people, based on positive discrimination, when there are significantly better applicants that are passed over to meet the Politicians demands. Fascinating that you feel secure to make the assumption of not being qualified in her case, and that someone better was, or must have been, overlooked.
But you have no basis for it.
I am all too familiar with the press for affirmative action in flight training and the demands put on the instructors and the training system to support that directive. You still attrite those who can't fly well enough. (Well, we did).
Petal Make sure you lube up that cyclic thoroughly before you take a seat on it. It will save your 'rhoids from undue agitation.

[Lonewolf_50]

A time line not checked for accuracy -

In Annapolis, Maryland (https://www.history.com/topics/us-states/maryland), the United States Naval Academy admits women for the first time in its history with the induction of 81 female midshipmen. In May 1980, Elizabeth Anne Rowe became the first woman member of the class to graduate. Your time line is mostly on course and speed.
81 females were sworn in on July 6, 1976. 55 Graduated on 28 May, 1980. Five got the opportunity to head to Pensacola to start flight training. (Along with about 200 of their male classmates).

[finestkind]

Fascinating that you feel secure to make the assumption of not being qualified in her case, and that someone better was, or must have been, overlooked.
But you have no basis for it.
I am all too familiar with the press for affirmative action in flight training and the demands put on the instructors and the training system to support that directive. You still attrite those who can't fly well enough. (Well, we did).
Make sure you lube up that cyclic thoroughly before you take a seat on it. It will save your 'rhoids from undue agitation.

How many times does it have to be stated that the post was NOT specifically about this Lt. Can you expand on your " You still attrite those who can't fly well enough".

I do hope you were not in the military as anyone with your emotive and personal style attacks (does not play the ball but the man) would have been hell to have as a superior.

[Islandlad]

I do hope you were not in the military as anyone with your emotive and personal style attacks (does not play the ball but the man) would have been hell to have as a superior.
Lonewolf has used some interesting language in the last few days but I would say that the above attributes are EXACTLY what is required of a military man and woman :E there is nothing superior to a fighter pilot - particularly one who does it onto a boat :cool:

My little list of firsts has a shocking attrition rate! I wish this young lady well: safe landings and a fantastic career.

[finestkind]

Lonewolf has used some interesting language in the last few days but I would say that the above attributes are EXACTLY what is required of a military man and woman :E there is nothing superior to a fighter pilot - particularly one who does it onto a boat :cool:

My little list of firsts has a shocking attrition rate! I wish this young lady well: safe landings and a fantastic career.I hope I have not misconstrued you comments Islandlad, but are you saying that you want an emotive CO for a fast jet SQN that personally attacks his subordinates if they don't see eye to eye?

[Lonewolf_50]

How many times does it have to be stated that the post was NOT specifically about this Lt. If you say so. I wonder if we don't agree on a few more things than we don't.
Can you expand on your " You still attrite those who can't fly well enough". The term attrite refers to disenrolling people from flight training who can't meet standards. Well, it used to anyway.
"Skipper, last quarter we had three attrites and six DORs. {Drop on Request; flight students haning up the cleats voluntarily} Their packages were reviewed by the Wing and CNATRA, except for one DOR. She's undergoing a psych eval with Medical; the other eight are pending orders from the Bureau." (That is roughly how I briefed our CO one fine Monday afternoon, obviously not verbatim as it's been over 30 years ... ).
Maybe they use a new term now.
As to launching attacks: my best CO's were the ones who went after anyone who tried to go after the people in their squadron.
I retired from active duty 15 years ago.

[fitliker]

I wonder when the Olympics will abolish male and female events ? Just the fastest , highest and strongest need apply :)

[tdracer]

Although Air Force specific, a very good read on the subject at hand:
https://www.airspacemag.com/airspacemag/right-fly-and-fight-180975332/

One question was directed at Leavitt in particular. A reporter asked if by going into fighter training so soon, she was “leapfrogging” over qualified men. When she tried to explain that she was following the same process as everyone else, the reporter asked McPeak to step in and clarify. “Jeannie graduated number one in her class,” he said. “She’s been in a holding pattern for six months. She’s not leapfrogging anyone. She’s been delayed.”

This thread is a shining example of the problem I have with so called "Affirmative Action" - it cheapens the accomplishments of those that get the job based on merit - not because of their gender or color of their skin - and reinforces the discriminatory belief that that they are inferior.

[West Coast]

I would imagine Lt. Swegle is rightfully proud of her accomplishment. I truly hope she doesn’t stumble upon pprune and some of the posts here that attribute her success to her gender and skin color.

[charliegolf]

I truly hope she doesn’t stumble upon pprune and some of the posts here that attribute her success to her gender and skin color.

Or her parents/family, who really don't need the shine taken off their immense pride in a child who has done something that only very few can.

CG

[MG]

Although Air Force specific, a very good read on the subject at hand:
https://www.airspacemag.com/airspace...ght-180975332/ (https://www.airspacemag.com/airspacemag/right-fly-and-fight-180975332/)
An interesting article but, wow, what an unhappy looking bunch of aviators in that last photo. I’m guessing that they really didn’t want to be there. If that’s going to be use for recruitment, as it suggests, it’s no going to do the Air Force any favours.

[BEagle]

An interesting article but, wow, what an unhappy looking bunch of aviators in that last photo.

Standing around on a damp, dreary flight line whilst a snapper fiddles with his f-stops would probably tax the patience of a saint!

I would imagine Lt. Swegle is rightfully proud of her accomplishment. I truly hope she doesn’t stumble upon PPRuNe and some of the posts here that attribute her success to her gender and skin color.

Absolutely, Westie!

[charliegolf]

An interesting article but, wow, what an unhappy looking bunch of aviators in that last photo.

Staged rufftie-tufftie pic.

CG

[finestkind]

If you say so. I wonder if we don't agree on a few more things than we don't.
The term attrite refers to disenrolling people from flight training who can't meet standards. Well, it used to anyway.
(That is roughly how I briefed our CO one fine Monday afternoon, obviously not verbatim as it's been over 30 years ... ).
Maybe they use a new term now.
As to launching attacks: my best CO's were the ones who went after anyone who tried to go after the people in their squadron.
I retired from active duty 15 years ago.Really. What a nonsensical thing to say or just what are you saying. That I cannot state that my post is not about whatever and you are going to say yes it is????

Disenrolling not even certain that’s a word. We suspend students from course.

If your CO is protecting his people than that’s what a good CO does. My point which you seem to miss on other numerous occasion’s is if you have superior that target people because they don’t like the way they “part their hair” are unprofessional and would be very unpleasant to work for.

I am pleased you where a member of the military. I retired from active service 24 months ago.

[MG]

Standing around on a damp, dreary flight line whilst a snapper fiddles with his f-stops would probably tax the patience of a saint!
A bit of a daft statement. Any decent photog can get a bit of a smile and then chose the best to publish.

[Lonewolf_50]

Really. What a nonsensical thing to say or just what are you saying. That I cannot state that my post is not about whatever and you are going to say yes it is? How about you focus on this bit - we may agree about more than we don't - and we can leave it at that.
Disenrolling not even certain that’s a word. It became one when the personnel types wanted a less harsh sounding word than attrite. I did a double-take the first time the Student Control officer used the term in a meeting, and I recall seeing it in various training administrative regulations but that goes back abou a couple of decades.
You can call it a version of US Navy 'Newspeak'.
Aside: There is this never ending fiddling with jargon that can be a pain. We used to have the Replacement Air Group (RAG) for taking newly winged aviators and training them on the fleet type: F-14, CH-46, P-3, etc. We referred to it as "the rag" in conversation. Well, that apparently offended some of our more precious higher ups/congress critters as more ladies joined our ranks during the 80's. The Navy had to change the name. The units were reclassified as "Fleet Replacement Squadron" (FRS). As far as I can tell, that's still the proper term.
I am sure someone got a medal or a letter of commendation for coming up with that brilliant piece of word smithing. :p
We may have had it inflicted upon us - disenroll for remove from training - during the nascent USAF/USN JPATS development period. USAF uses a lot of strange terms, or so it seemed to me from a Naval perspective.
I am pleased you were a member of the military. I retired from active service 24 months ago. As above, I suspect we may agree on more than we don't.

[MG]

It became one when the personnel types wanted a less harsh sounding word than attriteYou do know that attrite isn’t a really word as well, don’t you?

[ORAC]

You do know that attrite isn’t a real word as well, don’t you?https://www.lexico.com/definition/attrite

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/attrite

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/attrite

[MG]

Without an ‘e’. Oxford English Dictionary, the only one that counts
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/320x102/f711ff63_fc67_4cf7_b74a_2cd7cb60fbbb_8e286c051e0014464633791 6da1ac5b6ac202a33.jpeg

[ORAC]

You’re telling an American he has to use an English dictionary?

You do realise that Noah Webster changed the spelling of words as a deliberate revolutionary act?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_Webster#Blue-backed_speller

[West Coast]

You do know that attrite isn’t a really word as well, don’t you?

You're fired as the keeper of the english language.

[Barksdale Boy]

Several points: if attrite isn't a word, then photog definitely isn't; West Coast's posts today are spot on; some of the most tedious, not to say damp, occasions during my service consisted of waiting for group photographs; and Lt(jg) Swegle is to be congratulated.