Pilot lives....yes they matter

[Bindair Dundat]

I've been in an extreme state of shock at how the COVID-19 pandemic has and is unfolding across the planet. Without question, aviation has been brought to it's knees and with it the lives of millions of dedicated, hardworking, humans that make connecting the globe their life and livelihoods. The pandemic has laid bare systemic issues in every corner of our world. Racism, income inequality, gender dynamics, geopolitical chaos and corruption have all been paraded out in full force by the media to suit whatever left or right narrative they are spinning.
I can't help but be amazed at the complete and utter lack of coverage and oversight on an industry that is on the brink and is choosing to crucify it's workforce as a way forward through the pandemic. I am specifically alluding to the plight of pilots and the completely untenable position they have been placed in though no fault of their own.

Terms and conditions for aviators have been on the ropes for years. A pilot shortage was just starting to become a serious threat to the industry. With few exceptions, the industry reacted by squeezing productivity to the utter limits and lowering hiring standards to barely acceptable levels. The pandemic has turned out to be a moment of serendipity for the accountants and HR executives globally as they previously grappled to attract talent and provide competitive compensation to a dwindling pool of qualified candidates. One can almost hear them rubbing their hands together with a certain level of glee now that COVID-19 has solved their number one problem. The business of sending out lay off notices and redundancy letters is surely unpleasant, but can't go on forever and once through this bleak period, airlines will have pilots exactly where they have always wanted them.....in a corner and forced to accept whatever they are willing to provide, because, let's face it, where else will they work with their specialized skill set? NO ONE IS HIRING...ANYWHERE

I've tried to compare how other industries might react to the same predicament. It's hard to find a direct comparison. Aviation is just so specific and so susceptible to global events and economics. I did manage to give a colleague a scenario though. Imagine a hospital finding itself in a dire financial position brought on by uncontrollable external forces. The hospital management must do something to save the 'sinking ship', so to speak. Doctors are expensive, really expensive. How about we let go all our most senior and seasoned doctors, the ones with the most experience and knowledge but also the highest salaries, in favour of retaining all the residents and then hiring loads of nurse practitioners to deliver bulk medicine to the masses. Surely we would save loads of money. Lots of people would be served adequately by this model. Some would die, certainly, because their cases were too complex for physicians without the years of experience to decipher and treat properly, but that's the price we are willing to pay to save the hospital. The only problem is how the public might feel about all of this? I wonder what they would really think about being exposed to only the most novice of the industry because the spreadsheet just couldn't be balanced with the alternative? Obviously you see where I am headed with this.

The travelling public has no idea of the crisis that is currently coming to a cockpit near them. Beyond dumping seasoned veterans out like trash, the pilots left standing are expected to take much reduced salaries but continue on as the professional they are, safely operating the aircraft as if nothing has happened. Mortgages still need to be paid, kids through school and university, food on the table but somehow the economics only apply to the corporate spreadsheet and not the individual. The pilot should continue on as the robot they wish them to be, unrelentingly productive but not susceptible to any mental health issues brought on by having a nuclear bomb go off in your industry and life. Always in fear for your job.

The news from airlines across the globe is appalling. Mass redundancies in the Middle East with no transparency and metric as to how the decisions are being made, and when it might be over. Contract pilots in Asia forced into leave without pay and offered no communication as to when the situation might possibly resolve or what the plan is moving forward. Legacy airlines floating salary reductions of 50%. It's all madness. I don't know what the solution could possibly be. I am a capitalist at heart. Right now, though, the laws of capitalism can hardly be blindingly adhered to in these unprecedented times. It is well past the time for airlines to start truly engaging their pilot workforce as a way though this catastrophe. The draconian measures being used to trim the workforce and save the industry need to stop. The brain drain from the sky is going to be beyond what any reasonable traveller would consider acceptable if they truly knew. Yes, pilot lives do matter and it is time the airlines and public understood that.

[gums]

Seems a lot more than just pilot lives, BIND

The air transport industry has millions of folks that have been affected besides the folks up front in row 1, seat A

Besides direct jobs, you must factor in the supporting folks that provide gas, bring in the meals, sweep the floors in the terminal, and the beat goes on. It is the overall process that the "socialist" folks do not understand.

Without the amazing airline industry the world developed over the last 50 years, that nasty virus could not have infected millions across the globe in such a short time. So maybe some inspection of the industry to prevent a new pandemic is in order, huh?

I empathize with a few pilots that have no back-up jobs/plans/savings, heh heh, but that aspect of the airline woes today is down in the noise level as far as this old pilot is concerned.

[FlightDetent]

To OP:

You may want to consider our cabin crew colleagues first. 5x as many in numbers, 1/5 of the salary before the crisis hit.

At least we had a chance to save a bit for the rainy day and are not replaceable in the future with off the street talents from a 4 weeks crash course.

(Cross-posted with gums)

[N40PF]

It is out of the question that hundrets of thousands are affected in this industry, but frankly, the main difference is that most jobs did not require an up-front investment like the specialized pilot career does, and it takes many years until you eventually reach the break-even point.
A cabin crew who is one year into the business might not have had the chance to save a lot, but a young First Officer looks at 100k+ dept and no chance of employment in the flight deck for ages. Both can compete for poorly payed jobs in the supermarket now but the cabin crew doesnt need to pay back the loan. Soon the type ratings will expire and pilots need to cough up another 1500€ every year for that plus another 100€ for the medical - only if you can demonstrate proficiency without any training as the skills are still fading away quickly without being in a job anyway, otherwise it can be a lot more.
I am not talking about senior captains of major airlines on dinoaur contracts from the good old times who are close to their retirements anyway, but the average newcomer pilot is totally f...d.

[macdo]

Pilots lives matter, but no more so than anyone else caught up in this cataclysm. Times change and who is employed by what industry changes too. When I was born, only the super rich traveled by air, that changed in a generation to everyone on the planet moving around, with all the benefits and detriments. When I was born, men, in huge numbers, had well paid, secure, pensioned jobs in heavy industry and manufacturing, that changed in a generation so that only a rump of those jobs remain. It is possible that we are seeing the beginning of the decline of mass air travel, the omens do not look promising with anti industry feeling from so many quarters, underlined perfectly yesterday by Mr Sunak completely ignoring the industry's plight. My advice is to look for a personal exit strategy before you become like miners and the steel workers reminiscing about their glory days of the past.

[Gipsy Queen]

To OP:

You may want to consider our cabin crew colleagues first. 5x as many in numbers, 1/5 of the salary before the crisis hit.

At least we had a chance to save a bit for the rainy day and are not replaceable in the future with off the street talents from a 4 weeks crash course.

(Cross-posted with gums)

A very valid and poignant observation.

I don't think we have yet begun to understand the socio-economic consequences of governmental response to the pandemic. In my view, the greatest damage created from so blindly following a junk science, is to public confidence and it is public confidence which is so desperately needed to get the economy generally, and air travel in particular back to something recognisably able to support the livelihoods of those engaged in it.

Macdo has read the writing on the wall and it could be that we may witness changes in the industry of seismic proportions. The industry will need to evolve accordingly if there are not going to be even more tears. Nevertheless, the situation is desperately sad.

[PAXboy]

The problem for airlines is that it is not 'just' Covid19. One needs to look at all the other global matters that were in process and continue. That list starts with - but is by no means limited to:_

The USA levels of debt, as well as in many other countries
Then look at places where property is seriously overvalued.
Consider the USA having reached the end of it's period of global domination and the rise of China.
The re-jigging of Europe.
The continued pressue from Russia.
The Middle East is not going to go quiet any time soon.
The climate problem has not been solved yet.
After the 2008 financial crash - nothing substantial changed, they just carried on as before.
Boeing has the problem of it's life still to fix, the Max is going to be an 'albatross' round its neck for years to come.
Airbus laying people off too.
Rolls-Royce, GE and other engine manufacturers following down the line. Not to mention all the other companies that supply components for each commercial aircraft.
The smaller comabines are not immune, Bombardier has debts too.

Think about the way in which all of these have been exacerbated by Covid19 and then ask the old question: Where is the money going to come from? Currently, everyone is printing money and there is a reason that the value of gold is rising! People waiting for things to go back to normal will be surprised. Those expecting the 'new normal' to be better than the old, may be surprised. One of the long awaited changes that has been shaped by Covid19 is Telecommunting and Office occupancy. From that follows meetings reached by air. I worked in Telecommunications for 27 years, I saw the changes starting 40 years ago. Yes, I agree that there is nothing that replaces a face to face meeting but a lot of those meetings ARE going to be replaced.

My pessimisim is not based on 2020. Some of us saw this pattern of problems 18 months ago, before Covid even began.

[Chiefttp]

Paxboy,

very insightful, however the rise of China will be severely curtailed by this Covid crises. After all, if what you say comes to pass, nobody will have money to buy their products. Friends I know in financial circles believe that Real Estate, especially commercial real estate will be affected, but the financial foundation of the markets and banking is still very strong (in the US) He even mentioned a better quality of life for working folks who are embracing telecommuting as a new normal. Time will tell.

[Dave Therhino]

I doubt the large organization I work for will ever return to having people travel for business the way we did before.

[Bindair Dundat]

Thread drifting....No one has a crystal ball and everyone is speculating about everything. No one knows how things will recover. The point of the thread is the way aviation is hell bent on decimating the piloting profession. No other industry treats it's employees with quite as much contempt. Everyone expects layoffs. No one expects all jobs to be saved in the context of COVID. When mass layoffs hit other industries there are all kinds of supports and concessions for retraining and considerations for the lives that are being upended. In an industry where people are literally trusting their lives to the people up front, it's startling to me that people are treated with such disregard. The industry was broken before, COVID put it into very sharp focus.

[vilas]

Bindair
Your's appears like a union rant but at a wrong time. Humanity is going through an existential crisis of global dimensions and it's either lives matter or they don't. Most Pilots are workers and worker's salaries have always depended on requirement and cost of their replacement. Presently it's survival not how meagerly and hope that it gets over. But then dynosaurs may also have thought so.

[Bend alot]

As this is a professional pilots forum I think it is reasonable to expect discussion focused on the specifics of being a pilot during the pandemic. This does not negate the extreme pain faced by millions of aviation and related occupations facing layoffs and hardships as well.


PPRuNE has evolved since the original person developed this site - given the different subsections I think it is very clear to most that PPRuNe is actually an aviation forum.

Current unpaid pilots (and there are currently many) would not technically be considered "professional".

There are very many captains of airlines that have taken paths that have not required any personal cash outlay to become pilots - employment bonds, cadet-ships and military.

We are all in this together, as a veteran sole occupation over my life LAME - hopes the industry revives and we all stand with each other (not apart like before) for good pay and conditions for ALL employees moving forward.

[blue up]

Biggest problem for Pilots seems to be that they've spent $100,000 to become a 'One Trick Pony'. Without an aircraft to fly they haven't much to offer. An Engineer can fix any sort of machine, CC can work in many areas of Hospitality, managers can run away and run any sort of company but Pilots...

If this lasts a long time then that decision to buy a new Porsche and a large house on a big salary might have been a bad idea. Living within your means on $100,000 per year becomes a problem when you're only able to get a lowly job.

Tighten your belt and diversify...fast? 12 months ago nobody would have foreseen 6 months without flying so how can we assume flying will ever generate enough jobs after this disease finally folds?

Scary, isn't it.

[wiggy]

Bindair

Sorry to sound brutal but we're one of many employee groups in many industries seriously effected by this pandemic..yes we may have major responsibilities but that doesn't make us "special"..as blue up rightly points out maybe pay to train has given some the wrong impression but realistically paying large sums of money to get qualified doesn't make us special or worthy.

At a local level I know some some Unions/professional associations are attempting to provide support, reduce redundancies, but the realpolitik is that we're in the redundancy mix with many other people, it will be nasty and scary for some time, and I can't see any way around it. I certainly don't see many pilots getting extra special support from national governments..

When mass layoffs hit other industries there are all kinds of supports and concessions for retraining and considerations for the lives that are being upended.

From a UK POV maybe it has happened when a single industrial sector/employer has gone under, but this pandemic is on such a scale I can't imagine that happening now - Can you give us an example of what sort of scheme(s) you are thinking of, any examples from recent history?

[vlieger]

I’m not convinced of the dire economic predictions. I’m surrounded by professionals in various fields ranging from healthcare to tech to banking where the pandemic has been nothing more than a nuisance. Their financial fortunes are little changed and they are waiting for things to go back to normal.
By no means representative, but the apocalyptic narrative is overdone. The other side of the fence is in the travel and tourism sector and yes, life sucks at the moment. Is the entire planet going to revert to RV vacations for the long term? A new normal will emerge and it will be a million times better and more profitable if industry is intelligent about it.

The problem with a statement like this is there is a lot of wishful thinking going on. There's a very interesting article in the Financial Times today that describes how we are sitting on a house of cards (debt) and the way capitalism is organised and leveraged these days makes it very easy for the whole thing to collapse. I would say that the economic picture is indeed very grim and commentators like Martin Wolf echo sentiments like that.
The OP may think of himself as a capitalist but if you work for a wage you are a worker.
​​​​​​
https://www.ft.com/content/c732fded-5252-4333-a3f8-80b767508bbc#comments-anchor

[Meester proach]

PPRune = pilots.
Whilst I have every sympathy for anyone caught up in this, this forum SHOULD be about pilots.

In terms of one trick pony, yes, people spent years getting the qualifications and experience for what they felt would be a professional and long career.

With the sort of hours pilots do, I don’t know many who had the time and drive outside of the working day to set up “ Amazon “ or write “ Harry Potter “...

That’s not to say the skill set isn’t transferable , a lot of the qualities are, but the kind of industries where they may be used have never been crying out for unemployed pilots - thery are normally deluged with a applications.

I find it slightly embarrassing This is happening to me again, as all the jealousy I’ve faced since making it in this game, will make a few people jump for joy at its demise .

[ATC Watcher]

We are spending in my branch of aviation (ATC) currently a lot of energy and discussions on the definition of the "new normal" .Will it be 50 or 80 % of 2019 traffic levels and when . The conventional wisdom at the moment ( it changes every week ) is 70% by 2024.
To influence that percentage and year does not depend on us, our management or the politicians, It depends on the public will to re-travel which is turn will depend on an effective and side-effects free vaccine or a cure and an economic rebound..
In countries with no or difficult ground infrastructure (i.e where alternative to a 1h flight is 12-15h by road ), traffic will rise faster , and will probably remain . For the rest we have to wait and see. Remember is is not only pilots, it is the whole chain , without pax , no revenue, for an aircraft operator an airport , aircraft manufacturers , etc...the whole chain. We do not control our destiny . Asking your ( non aviation) neighbors and friends when they plan to travel again for pleasure or business is probably the best indicator right now.

As to (some) pilots being special because they invested 100 K$ to their education, again have a look in the real non aviation world.. This is unfortunately becoming the norm for many professions where students have to take loans to finance their studies, whether it is a law degree or an MBA.

[wiggy]

We are spending in my branch of aviation (ATC) currently a lot of energy and discussions on the definition of the "new normal" .Will it be 50 or 80 % of 2019 traffic levels and when . The conventional wisdom at the moment ( it changes every week ) is 70% by 2024.
To influence that percentage and year does not depend on us, our management or the politicians, It depends on the public will to re-travel which is turn will depend on an effective and side-effects free vaccine or a cure and an economic rebound..
.

"70% by 2024"..Gulp.

Asking your ( non aviation) neighbors and friends when they plan to travel again for pleasure or business is probably the best indicator right now.

As you say a lot of this really all very much hinges on the general public. I'm certainly hearing of people who are planning on driving rather than flying from the UK to parts of Europe later this summer because they want to avoid aircraft/airports, and also because having a car on hand equips them with the means to " bailout" should there start to be hints of a local lockdown....

[ChrisVJ]

"Who would have thought six months ago . . . .?
Maybe in six months or a year you will be saying the same thing.

We are geriatrics on a low fixed income but we usually manage to travel a couple of times a year, sometimes three or four with discount fares and companion flights and we were sitting here yesterday wondering where would be available to travel a little later this year. I suspect there are a lot of people out there in similar situation.

I am well aware that it is the last ten percent in many industries that make the difference between profit and loss but I was surprised to read that 'up to twenty percent' of jobs had been lost in the worst hit areas. If you were reading the dire predictions in most news media you would have thought that it was more like eighty percent! Apparently eighty percent of the travelling public will still have money to travel when this is over.

The game changer will probably be a vaccine or a reliable treatment. If we were lucky enough to get both by, say, next Spring, then why would people not travel? As much as business is currently finding ways to communicate with less face to face I expect new markets to develop and take up the slack. They always do.

I suspect it will be structurally more difficult to restart flying than to close it down. The process of scheduling and servicing parked aircraft and the sheer complexity of the industry has to make it a drawn out process but I suspect there will be a lot of pent up demand when we are free to fly abroad again.

[Stabmotion]

To OP:

You may want to consider our cabin crew colleagues first. 5x as many in numbers, 1/5 of the salary before the crisis hit.

At least we had a chance to save a bit for the rainy day and are not replaceable in the future with off the street talents from a 4 weeks crash course.

(Cross-posted with gums)


Well CC has not invested a huge amount in their training, they don't have our big loans to be paid, they don't have to keep themselves studying and with recency... I can continue but there are many reasons why CC doesn't have the same problem, they could work elsewhere the day after, we can't.

[Pistonprop]

I am a retired aviation professional and (in my retirement) had been flying purely for leisure an average of 30-50 sectors per year. So far this year my total is zero. As much as I want to travel again I do not see myself boarding an aircraft for a good while yet. Only a proven efficient vaccine will give me peace of mind, and that is a long way off or may possibly never happen! It truly hurts me to see all who are involved in the industry suffering the economic consequences of this virus, but I just cannot take the risk. I'm sure that I speak for hundreds of thousands that think more or less along the same lines right now. So yes, full recovery of the industry will, painfully, take a long time.

[jetjockeyjoe]

PLM. Pilot Lives Matter.

Hello to everyone.
As a newbie fATPL holder, I always hear stories from our big brothers how the 9/11 era went worse. Nevertheless, I claim that this COVID era is already doubled 9/11 era surely. Because the aviation itself, flight schools and airlines are having an enhanced infrastructure and capacity.
Before this coronavirus, roughly I would say that there was unemployed 8000 new fATPL holders (Low hour commercial pilot with ATPL theory and IFR on multi rating) plus 1000 experienced pilots in all world (FAA+EASA+ICAO). now the final amount of all pilots who they are unemployed is about 24.000 according to my estimation which I collected all information from websites during these last 3 months. This number can be wrong but I would be so happy if someone could give a more accurate number.

Consequently, this is obvious that airline assessments will be the hardest in all time as it was never in before. Finding a job will be extremely hard for all of us who they are a newbie.
Even to find bread will be challenge for us. Finally, I can only say one thing: Pilot Lives Matter....

[wiggy]

As a newbie fATPL holder, I always hear stories from our big brothers how the 9/11 era went worse.

I'm not sure who these "big brothers" are but if they are claiming the 9/11 era was worse than what we are going through right now then I'd take no further advice from them because they are talking nonsense.

Yes there was a traffic hold/stop for several days, duration dependent on where you were, yes there was a downturn whilst confidence recovered, yes there were redundancies, but the situation really never looked anything like as dire medium/long term across the whole industry as what we are witnessing now.. Were the pilots you are hearing making these claims actually flying commercially at the time - in 2001?

..and yes, you are right, the next few years will be tough, tougher than post 9/11..

Good Luck

[woptb]

Meester proach

You seem rather self absorbed, as to others schadenfreude regarding your plight,can’t imagine why they might feel that way.......

[nolimitholdem]

The conventional wisdom at the moment ( it changes every week ) is 70% by 2024.

That it changes every week demonstrates how useless an estimate it is. Sheer tea-leaves-reading nonsense.

The fact is no one knows where the world, or the industry will be by Christmas, let alone 2024.

[nickler]

You seem rather self absorbed, as to others schadenfreude regarding your plight,can’t imagine why they might feel that way.......

Meester proach is totally right. I just laugh when I read all the nonsense about "finding a way out" or read posts on social media on how managers should hire pilots in their industries because we do have certain qualities, we pass our OPCs and medicals and so on... come on... nobody cares. The truth is You either have other qualifications and experience besides being a professional pilot or You will end up with a poorly paid lower class back up job. It's as simple as it is. Besides getting a masters in Your 40s without any work experience outside the flight deck might help a bit, but it's a time (and money) consuming commitment and most people with families and bills to be paid simply can't afford the deal.

[ATC Watcher]

That it changes every week demonstrates how useless an estimate it is. Sheer tea-leaves-reading nonsense.

The fact is no one knows where the world, or the industry will be by Christmas, let alone 2024.
Well you may be right but no need to denigrate professionals making forecast .Our sources come from Eurocontrol , IATA weekly updates ( Public , search for them ) Airbus , and a few independent airlines that still employ them , Like Lufthansa for instance.
It is a bit more than reading tea leaves.
The latest Eurocontrol comprehensive assessment dated 8 July is following their predicted curve , we are currently at 21% of 2019 levels, expected to be at 50% by September and may reach 75-80% in Febr 2021 then it is likely to say there for quite some time .. That is for European traffic , which is slightly lagging behind US domestic traffic ( currently at 36%, )
For world wide, traffic IATA is more pessimistic. Same for Airbus. Airlines expansion plans are shelved and they expect the 70% plateau to last until 2024. For info US international traffic is only at 10% currently .

As an aside , re the title of this thread : Pilots lives matter ...I find this a bit overdone to be honest , The Black community uses this slogan to denounce the murdering of young blacks in the US. There is quite a difference between losing you life and losing your job..

[Meester proach]

You seem rather self absorbed, as to others schadenfreude regarding your plight,can’t imagine why they might feel that way.......


Self absorbed ? What a strange thing to say.
I imagine you are one of the haters.

[Pistonprop]

The latest Eurocontrol comprehensive assessment dated 8 July is following their predicted curve , we are currently at 21% of 2019 levels, expected to be at 50% by September and may reach 75-80% in Febr 2021 then it is likely to say there for quite some time .. That is for European traffic.

That forecast may well go up in smoke if a second wave hits Europe this winter, which is quite likely.

[guy_incognito]

Meester proach is totally right. I just laugh when I read all the nonsense about "finding a way out" or read posts on social media on how managers should hire pilots in their industries because we do have certain qualities, we pass our OPCs and medicals and so on... come on... nobody cares. The truth is You either have other qualifications and experience besides being a professional pilot or You will end up with a poorly paid lower classup job. It's as simple as it is. Besides getting a masters in Your 40s without any work experience outside the flight deck might help a bit, but it's a time (and money) consuming commitment and most people with families and bills to be paid simply can't afford the deal.

Exactly this. The majority of pilots have no relevant and/or recent alternative qualifications and little in the way of transferable skills. The types of jobs open to pilots are unskilled, minimum wage jobs. It is fanciful to suggest that we'd be competitive even for entry level graduate positions.

It is impossible to overstate how horrendous the situation is for pilots with mortgages, childcare/ school fees, training loans etc. to pay. I don't to see how any pilot will ever be able to commit to buying a house or even to starting a family; there is simply too much risk. The future for those "lucky enough" to find another flying job looks likely to be temporary contracts on a fraction of the salaries previously offered. This career is dead.

[TommiW]

ATC watcher; thaks for signposting where we can get some professional views on what the state of CAT is likely to be over the coming years. Of course, these forecasts are based on many assumptions of the future and so the figures could be better or worse, however, I reckon it's better than most pprune armchair analysts could do.

Unless I've misread the latest Eurocontrol report, it looks to me like Europe is currently at 35% of 2019 levels rather than the 21% you have quoted. Also, Feb 2021 is forecast to be at 75-85% of 2019 levels, and if the current trend line on that report continues it should be closer to the upper end.

[FMS82]

I read these forums with great interest, and have refrained from commenting much, as I merely am SLF. Here's 2 cents

I come from a flying family, and have seriously considered a career as one of you guys, but was fortunate enough to have a sneak peak of what pilot life would offer I chose a career in engineering instead. You have my sympathy for what is happening to your industry, and I see many sensible comments on here that show a sense of urgency reflective of the situation the world is in.

However, I also see a persistent amount of denial, with wild predictions of holiday travel booming back up once the time is right.
​​​​That would be nice indeed, but what pays your package is not that once-a-year tourist. It is (was) the business clientele closer to the pointy end. I used to be one of them, but can assure me and my colleagues will not be flying much for the foreseeable future. The worst news is that we don't miss it for a minute.

The thing is we were forced to learn a few new tricks in the last months, and online productivity tools have taken a great leap, such that meetings that required face 2 face contact in the past, can now be done comfortably and productively on a remote basis. We love it, and I am sure I speak on behalf of many of my peers.

Something changed. Traffic is not coming back to the old levels.

Wake up, smell that coffee, and rejig your life to find a meaningful and fulfilling alternative source of income. If flying is part of that, great, but don't expect to make as great a living or if it as you may have been used to.

​​​

[TommiW]

I believe you're largely correct with respect to business travel. However, there are a few charter airlines that deal solely in the leisure market. And that will never be replaced by zoom. For those airlines, the once a year holidaymaker is exactly who pays their pilots wages

[FMS82]

Not disagreeing. But the dip we will all be going through will turn those people into once-every-two-years holidaymakers. And that is a problem, especially when combined with a woke generation who are no longer interested in city tripping weekends or stag do's just an easyJet away.

The golden days are over.

​​

[PAXboy]

Bindair Dundat
The point of the thread is the way aviation is hell bent on decimating the piloting profession. No other industry treats it's employees with quite as much contempt. Everyone expects layoffs. No one expects all jobs to be saved in the context of COVID. When mass layoffs hit other industries there are all kinds of supports and concessions for retraining and considerations for the lives that are being upended. In an industry where people are literally trusting their lives to the people up front, it's startling to me that people are treated with such disregard. The industry was broken before, COVID put it into very sharp focus.

As others have said, Flight Crew are highly specialised people - like Doctors - they cannot readily transfer to other lines of work. Normally they have to find something entirely different to do and, given that millions of others are currently having to do the same ... I do understand this. My nephew became a Senior Second Office with a national airline (not in the UK) and, aged about 40 when he was looking for further promotion - his otilith organ failed in one ear and he lost his medical. End of career. All he had wanted to do from the age of 12 - gone, overnight. His insurance paid out but that does not cover another 20 years of working life. They had to downsize their house and his wife went back to work.

Further, you say, "No other industry treats it's employees with quite as much contempt." Having spent 27 years in corporate life - I disagree! Myself and my friends and family have been subject to constructive dismissal, redundancy at zero minutes notice, being lied to by men and women in suits, being sidelined for promotion (ask women and people of colour about this) and, on one famous day: I was due to take a posting with the company overseas and it was widely known. I had been back and forth to NYC, the company had arranged an apartment for me and secured my USA work Visa. Three hours before my leaving party - I was told that the deal was off. Nothing else, just stay in the old job with everyone knowing you wanted to leave.

Chiefttp
After all, if what you say comes to pass, nobody will have money to buy their products. Friends I know in financial circles believe that Real Estate, especially commercial real estate will be affected, but the financial foundation of the markets and banking is still very strong (in the US) He even mentioned a better quality of life for working folks who are embracing telecommuting as a new normal. Time will tell.

I have tended to prepare for the worst and, to blow my own trumpet: I saw the 1989/91 recession and made plans to 'duck' but corporate business did otherwise - twice, the first being the NYC story above. So I lost a lot. I saw the DotCom bubble but was not invested in that market so that was OK. I saw the 2008 crash coming and was ready and able to withstand that, however, it was apparent the the financial system was not changed in any significant way - mainly because politicians do not like to send their friends in the City to jail! So I was ready and prepared for the next financial crash and saw it brewing in 2018 (as mentioned above) and started to prepare for it. I have been expecting the Pandemic for a long time, it was only a question of when. Unfortunately for the world, Covid 19 arrived just at the time that the market was ready to pop and people were thinking that things were going well.

nolimitholdem
The fact is no one knows where the world, or the industry will be by Christmas, let alone 2024.

Yes, I agree but look at history. Look at the Spanish Flu, the Great Depression, 9/11 and consider how much more connected we are by jet engines and telecommunications. Everything that happend in the past will happen again but BIGGER and longer lasting. It will happen because we know that humans do not learn from the past. The last six months have already shown that the USA and UK (and others) have learnt nothing from the past or the present.

Many companies can plan a one year life cycle. Vehicle manufacturers have to plan for five years, the airline world (makers, finance and operators) have to work at 15 years or more. Since they have all got used to steady expansion since the arrival of the 747, they have had 50 years of steadily increasing money. Now they have had to stop overnight. No company can do that in a nice way. So I am saddened about the way the airlines are treating all their crew and staff - but it is was corporates do.

[Gipsy Queen]

As I suggested in my earlier post, the key to resuming any sort of recovery is CONFIDENCE. And the key driver of that has to be national governments. So far, and certainly in the UK, the government has contributed little more than confusion.

There was a parallel situation after 9/11 when public confidence, or a lack thereof, was causing considerable hardship to the airlines. My wife and I, for no reason other than to demonstrate support for the industry, booked a return flight on Jet Blue from FLL to JFK. I'm not claiming any moral superiority here but if more people could manage something similar, others might be inspired to follow the example.

[PilotLZ]

There aren't any hard and fast rules for a situation which has so far been totally unknown to modern humankind. What may be perfectly valid for one person or company or geographical region may be totally implausible elsewhere. Assuming that everything and everyone everywhere in the world will follow the same pattern is a wild oversimplification.

However, since we already have some observations over all sorts of localised crisis, this allows for some conclusions. Some processes which dramatically change the landscape happen on a local scale in different places all the time. Destinations that were once looming with travel have been isolated from most of the world and devastated in past years due to wars, annexation etc. At the same time, others have flourished (compare the Middle East from a couple of decades ago VS what you see now). So, your individual prospects depend not only upon your skills, personality and reputation, but also upon where you are situated and how willing to relocate you are if need be. Some places will recover faster than others, some will exceed 2019 traffic levels relatively soon while others might never do. Some companies will do better than others, some will not survive at all. The question is, where exactly will you fit within that puzzle. It might not be exactly where you have imagined yourself, but you will sooner or later make it work if you so desire.

[woptb]

Self absorbed ? What a strange thing to say.
I imagine you are one of the haters.

Thinking is difficult isn’t it,that is why some choose to judge and the worst of all,judge based on their own standards .

[Old Dogs]

PPRune = pilots.

Not mechanics, cabin crew, etc?🤔

[megan]

No other industry treats it's employees with quite as much contemptAll companys are the same, we had a boss call our group into a conference room and tell us, "We don't give a f... about you people", exact words, reason being the low turn over of employees with our particular skill set. Can't blame him for his honesty, but wasn't something we didn't already know, it's something instilled in the MBA curriculum.

[Old Dogs]

... it's something instilled in the MBA curriculum.

Dunno where you got your MBA but my school (Cranfield) certainly didn't teach that.

[Shrike200]

Well, we can all theorise, but I know what I'm telling my children (and not for the first time): DO NOT BECOME A CAREER PILOT. You're a one trick pony with nothing else to do in an amazingly volatile industry that can be grounded in seconds. Don't bother messing with your life like that. It's too late for me, but not for them. I greatly sympathise with those who've just spent the money to qualify. I have a tertiary qualification in an engineering field; there is zero chance a company would take me over a fresh graduate, as I have the briefest experience in the field, and that was fifteen years ago. All my family and friends with in other industries are back at work, in most cases they never stopped as alternate plans could be made (work from home etc). This career can become a dead end in moments - it always has been the case ie. loss of medical, but now it's plain for all to see just how damaging any world event is. I sincerely hope that school leavers think VERY long and hard about a career in aviation. As I said, the young people whom I most care about in this world get told in no uncertain terms what I think.

[PAXboy]

Indeed 70 Mustang. My nephew mentioned in previous post, had just got himself in a pilot training company, where his experience could be paid one again and less than two months later? Lockdown. He has no idea if that job will ever return. Not least as he was last in the door.

In the past couple of days, I've read articles about other industries that have had changed forced upon them, or were already changing.

Movie making has already seen 'green screen' replace a lot of location shooting (ie travel). Now they are starting to use a combination of gaming video technology in action movies and beyond. They use very large 'LED walls' rather than green screen, so they can project the background at the time of filming. One example was for a film I have not seen (Rocketman) in the scene where the actor playing Elton John was meant to be in Shea Satdium NYC, it was filmed in the UK studio with the whole stadium and thousands of 'extras' on LED walls. So all the extras were not employed and no one had to fly to New York.

This year, Fashion Shows have gone online. All those designers, magazine people, models and staff were not flying the world. They might not be a large group but they are indicative of the changes.

In the UK, shopping malls were already in big financial trouble before Covid19. People buying online, avoiding old style High Streets? All was happening before. One of our largest shopping mall owners (Intu) has now gone bust. This past week, two major high street retailers (John Lewis and Boots) have announced store closures.

The Independent: "John Lewis says that between 60 per cent and 70 per cent of its sales will be made online this year. Last year, it was 40 per cent "

That is staff who will not be travelling the world to buy goods and staff not serving customers and so they will not be going on overseas holidays, possibly for some time.

As I said before, many of these trends were in process and Covid19 has simply pushed them to the front.

[Bindair Dundat]

Pax, sorrry your analysis is so overdone. The truth of what will occur lies somewhere in the middle. Your outlook ignores the fundamental of what being human is all about, at our core we are social animals. Fashion will not revert online, business travel will be less for awhile and what makes sense. Costs play a huge part but once the fear subsides and treatment and/or vaccine happen people will do what people do, congregate, explore, travel. Once people can park zoom for awhile they absolutely will. Not one person I know is willing to assume this bizarre new normal. Your comments are indicative of someone who wished they were a pilot but didn’t do it or cut it.

[FlightDetent]

Jeez, you really think pilots are special. Quite sad.

Hint: Even the ones with 100k loans were well off enough the bank gave them one.

[nickler]

Some of you guys might not have realised this is a pilot's forum. Do only pilots experience a tough time in that situation ? No, but if I want to discuss issues within other professions then it's worth looking for other websites maybe ?

[wiggy]

​​​​​​Well there's certainly an odd mindset around FD, and something/somebody has encouraged it. It's not that long ago we had the poster who seemed to think having a Class One meant you were some sort of superman/woman and now we have this thread.

Yes the industry is being utterly brutal at the moment to everybody who is involved it in, yes there's lots of scope for distraction on the Flight Deck, but the idea that somehow pilots have to be put in a cushioned box and specially protected from reality.....:ooh:

Oh and in the context of the parallel discussion about youngsters going into the industry... Having "made the cut" ;) routinely with over 45 years of flying and having seen the way it was headed before Covid/coronovirus I'm another one who told their now grown up kids not to touch the industry with a barge pole...

[TommiW]

I have also been telling my kids not to take up a career as a pilot, mainly due to how volatile a career it is and it's much easier said than done to have a viable backup plan. Unless you can keep your hand in with a second profession throughout your flying career it's going to be very difficult to fall back on a previous career, experience or education when it's 10+ years out of date (even more so in todays job market). For that reason, I hope permanent part time contracts become more easily available ro those who want them. They could give pilots a fighting chance to diversify on the side. A couple of colleagues managed to build a property empire on the side and now have a second income to give them some breathing space...great idea if you can afford the initial capital.

All that said, I still know of medics, lawyers and teachers who tell their kids never to take up their parents chosen professions for various other reasons.

[TerryCherry]

I know someone who made it into a jet with a major airline at 36. The reason it took so long was they never made the grade 15 years ago and would have struggled with the 100k. They were never prime pilot material but eventually had enough equity in a flat to pursue being a pilot. Being a Pilot is really not that difficult and the level the bar has been set at in recent years means there is probably another 50k people in the UK alone that could take it up tomorrow if they have 100k backing. Being a pilot is no longer a career but more of an expensive lifestyle experience. Most would be financially better off working an office job that pays 35k.

[Coquelet]

I am a retired aviation professional and (in my retirement) had been flying purely for leisure an average of 30-50 sectors per year. So far this year my total is zero. As much as I want to travel again I do not see myself boarding an aircraft for a good while yet. Only a proven efficient vaccine will give me peace of mind, and that is a long way off or may possibly never happen! It truly hurts me to see all who are involved in the industry suffering the economic consequences of this virus, but I just cannot take the risk. I'm sure that I speak for hundreds of thousands that think more or less along the same lines right now.

I don't know.
I have also been flying purely for pleasure an average of 40-50 sectors per year, and after four months without a flight, I have taken to it again.
I had my first two flights last week (by the way, both were full), and until the end of this summer season I have twenty more already booked. I just hope they won't be cancelled by the airlines.

[Icelanta]

The biggest problem is one that at no time, the Pilot community has put pressure on governments to properly award our training , studying, responsibility and proficiency with an official recognition.

ATPL holders or those holding Captaincy should get a Masters degree, when graduating from Academy, you should have a Bachelors.

The training should be Nationalised once again, the multi-choice exams and questionbanks burned to crisp and make the basic training 3 years, including subjects like Aviation Economy , analytics, Psychology, maths, physics,...

Just like Maritime Academy, that DOES get you a master degree when graduating.

[Bob Viking]

What astounds me when I read some posts is the total lack of empathy towards a fellow human.

The posters (you all know who I mean) who either look at a person struggling and think “ha, it serves you right” or look at someone with a better deal than themselves and think “that’s not fair, what about me?” are truly the most awful of people.

I am a military pilot but there is not a single cell in my body that doesn’t feel the pain of all those people I know in the airline industry (whatever their field) who are facing such life changing uncertainty.

To sneer at the people who are feeling such pain is unforgivable but especially when those feelings are clearly borne out of simple envy.

If you think those thoughts why must you feel the need to verbalise them?

I’ve said this many times but all my colleagues and acquaintances have my utmost sympathy and I hope the whole mess is sorted soon.

As a regular user of your services I’ll do my bit as soon as I am able by buying tickets again.

[zloi]

The training should be Nationalised once again, the multi-choice exams and questionbanks burned to crisp and make the basic training 3 years, including subjects like Aviation Economy , analytics, Psychology, maths, physics,...
Just like Maritime Academy, that DOES get you a master degree when graduating.

Exactly how it's done in Russia currently. And finally the quality of the pilots from such academies is so ****ty, most of them cannot explain what they see on jepp charts, and fly C172 in multicrew otherwise they cannot handle it.

[guy_incognito]

The biggest problem is one that at no time, the Pilot community has put pressure on governments to properly award our training , studying, responsibility and proficiency with an official recognition.

ATPL holders or those holding Captaincy should get a Masters degree, when graduating from Academy, you should have a Bachelors.

The training should be Nationalised once again, the multi-choice exams and questionbanks burned to crisp and make the basic training 3 years, including subjects like Aviation Economy , analytics, Psychology, maths, physics,...

Just like Maritime Academy, that DOES get you a master degree when graduating.

It is utterly laughable to suggest that an ATPL is, or should be considered to be, akin to a post graduate qualification. It is a vocational, technical qualification; not an academic one. Nor is there any need for it to be academic.

[wiggy]

What astounds me when I read some posts is the total lack of empathy towards a fellow human.

The posters (you all know who I mean) who either look at a person struggling and think “ha, it serves you right” or look at someone with a better deal than themselves and think “that’s not fair, what about me?” are truly the most awful of people.


I'm not sure many are saying that BV..and I'm sure (though you didn't say it) that you realise many of us not in the military are hearing some real horror stories from younger colleagues ATM ( for example potential loss of all household income if both breadwinners are in the same airline and perhaps still with training loans to pay back), and we are all doing our level best to encourage people and help get them through this...However we should remember that there are similar conversations going on in households where the main earner(s) are cabin crew, ground staff, engineers etc, many of whom have play their part in keeping us safe, so I struggle with the idea that started this thread that somehow we need to provide the pilot cohort with special protection.

My guess is part of the problem is that for many this is a brutal introduction into what goes on in the commercial aviation sector in a downturn ( and I accept this is a outlier, but many of us have seen the knives come out during smaller downturns before, GW1, 9/11...). Fundamentally employees are completely expendable, and yes, that includes those who were enticed into the business by the promises made by the ATOs and others who sold the dream on the basis of a never ending pilot shortage.

[homonculus]

Do only pilots experience a tough time in that situation ? No, but if I want to discuss issues within other professions then it's worth looking for other websites maybe ?

Pilots may not be unique but IMHO they have had it far worse in this pandemic than almost anyone else. Correction, than anyone else. Everyone goes on about healthcare workers but in the main they have not had to pay more than normal university costs, if that, for their qualifications, have jobs for life and during the pandemic have had free food and some have been waited upon by soon to be redundant CC who continued to smile through it all.

As a pilot I am undoubtedly biased, but I now have feet in many camps and as I look around it is hard to see another group, so indebted by training, facing such high levels of unemployment and with the possibility that they may never be employed in their profession again. I for one am not a great fan of the Chancellor who has spread taxpayers' money like manure rather than concentrate on those parts of the economy worst hit.

[Longtimer]

Quite right but others can occupy the Flight Deck on some aircraft. . But no quibble with "pilot's lives matter" but in what we are currently facing in the industry... thousands of other aviation lives also matter.
'

[Bindair Dundat]

Let me just pop over to a thread clearly talking about the specifics of being cabin crew and start moaning about being a pilot right now. See how dumb that sounds? There is no monopoly on misery at the moment and hardship isn’t mutually exclusive. The point of the thread title was to allude to what the breaking point could be for pilots to finally say enough is enough. Offering to fly for free, chastising those for lack of a backup plan, laying off highly experienced commanders in favour of cheaper newbies and just being bluddy nasty on this thread clearly shows where the profession has gone. Enjoy your new lives with your virtual world and staycations for eternity. Good luck.

[PAXboy]

Bindair Dundat
Pax, sorrry your analysis is so overdone. The truth of what will occur lies somewhere in the middle. Your outlook ignores the fundamental of what being human is all about, at our core we are social animals.

I certainly agree about being social animals and I do hope that the outlook is somewhere in the middle. I expect, and plan for, the worst. This can lead to a pleasant surprise. Unfortunately, in my life of watching international affairs and politics (I am not in the financial or poltical worlds and never have been) the number of pleasant surprises have been few.

Yes, humans WILL want to socialise and travel again - but if the money is not there? When people have lost their jobs, as many flight and cabin crew are, as many airline office employees are, then the money is not around.

Fashion will not revert online, business travel will be less for awhile and what makes sense.
Time will tell. Do not forget that the new generations are not frightened of being on line. Also, they have got used to ordering online and sending back what they don't want.

Costs play a huge part but once the fear subsides and treatment and/or vaccine happen people will do what people do, congregate, explore, travel. Once people can park zoom for awhile they absolutely will. Not one person I know is willing to assume this bizarre new normal.
I hope that those people you know do not get an unpleasant surprise. Over the millenia, human existance tends to change in 'landslides' and 'earthquakes' it is not that often, that change occurs slowly and gently. We have all got used to the easy progress since 1945. The airline world changed steadily and employment expanded beyond anyone's imagination. Steady expansion is not what history shows us.

As mentioned, the global economy was overheating before Covid19, there is a reason that gold has been increasing in value since long before the virus emerged.
As mentioned, with the airline world having to plan 5/10/15 years ahead - do not expect any fast changes.
As mentioned, the Max might get in the air in some parts of the world but it will never be the success that it was planned to be and this will limit jobs inside and outside of Boeing. Thus, costs may remain higher, unless a carrier can afford to buy/lease more efficient aircraft. So that is something of a Catch 22.

Your comments are indicative of someone who wished they were a pilot but didn’t do it or cut it.
No, you are wrong. I have never wanted to be a pilot and have never applied for any such job. I have been a happy pax since I was nine. Just because I am interested in the airline world - does not mean that I want to be part of it.

[PilotLZ]

Whatever scenario anyone of us imagines, there are three possible outcomes:

1. The reality will be better than we imagine
2. The reality will be worse than we imagine
3. The reality will be just as we imagine

I've read through a significant number of different scenarios. Anything ranging from things going back to normal by some time next year and traffic reaching and exceeding 2019 levels in no more than 2-3 years to things being so wildly screwed 3 years from now that no private airline will exist and the only flights out there will be operated by state-owned carriers to maintain essential connectivity and will cost an arm and a leg. My personal opinion, based on this? We shall wait and see. Whatever prophecy we make now, it may become completely invalid by next week.

[Longtimer]

Bindair Dundat

That is indeed what is wrong with the industry at this time. Solidarity has never happened, even within the various groups and def. not within those who are pilots.

[ATC Watcher]

PilotLZ

Yes agree, same as with married life with your partner in fact ..:E Who would have predicted, even believed 6 months ago that the USA with all their might , money and modern technology would be the hardest country in the world hit with the virus , and still unable to fix it as we speak .
In Europe July traffic is showing signs of rebound , but what is happening in the beaches, bars and restaurants at the moment might nullify this in a few weeks..
Crazy and frightening times...

[Pistonprop]

My exact fear too. I get the impression that a large section of the European population have already classified the virus as no longer a threat and are rapidly dropping their guard. The result may well be catastrophic in the months to come.

[guy_incognito]

Or just as likely it may well not be.

[PilotLZ]

You can't endlessly play with people's fear to make them comply - and, unfortunately and unwisely, that's precisely what most governments did. At some point, people grew sick and tired of constantly being threatened and fell into denial as means of protecting themselves. Now that even the WHO already claim that complete containment of the virus is extremely unlikely anytime soon, people will have to learn to live with it. Sadly, there's a good chance that the lesson will be learned the hard way.

[DHC4]

Some of you guys might not have realised this is a pilot's forum. Do only pilots experience a tough time in that situation ? No, but if I want to discuss issues within other professions then it's worth looking for other websites maybe ?

Well this PILOTS forum as you might have noticed does have other sub forums, for those of us involved in aviation. Or would you like us all to leave so that you can moan a bit more.

[wiggy]

My exact fear too. I get the impression that a large section of the European population have already classified the virus as no longer a threat and are rapidly dropping their guard.
.

You mean like this, headline story on French lunchtime news today

https://www.francebleu.fr/infos/faits-divers-justice/nievre-4-000-a-5-000-personnes-rassemblees-a-une-rave-party-1594573707

"Surprise" rave, 4000 plus, not a sign of any attempt at social distancing, very few masks;

Local authorities basically decided best approach was to get the sapeurs-pompiers on to the site to provide first aid, hand out masks and gel and also provide a fire watch.

I guess the attitude of those attending was that they are generally not in an at risk group, that might be fine for them but might bit of a problem for their extended family members.

[Bob Viking]

Many of you are correct in pointing out that this forum is not exclusively for pilots. However, someone started this thread as a conduit for pilots to discuss their specific situation.

If cabin crew or engineers want to have a similar discussion you are welcome to start a thread of your own within this very same forum. Why feel the need to hijack and guilt-trip the pilots for wanting a safe-space to air their grievances with individuals who are in a similar situation to themselves and therefore able to empathise?

Where do you suggest the pilots should go if they are not allowed to have a thread to themselves?

I would suggest that the argument some have to brand the pilots as arrogant and self centered is a little specious if you have come into a thread discussing pilots (as a non pilot) and started to hurl abuse.

Would you go to an Alcoholics Anonymous meeting and complain that nobody wants to hear about your gambling addiction?!

Seriously, if you can’t say anything nice...

[NoelEvans]

I very much dislike any "xyz ... lives matter" sentiments. ALL lives matter.

About pilots and the situation that they are (mostly) in, yup, the same as just about everyone else in the aviation industry. And a lot of people in many other industries.

However, pilots are amongst the highest earners in society so they have had ample opportunity to save something for that 'rainy day'. (Yes, I know this is more like a heavy thunderstorm.)

Regarding the huge training loans, one has to question getting hugely into debt to 'invest' in an unstable career. Every ten years or so the industry takes a hammering (1st Gulf War, '9/11', financial crash) with job losses and airline failures. On top of that is the risk of medical problems. And so it goes on. That is a very, very high risk 'investment' (that I doubt many financial advisers would advise?), especially to get into debt for it. There are more 'piecemeal' and less financially draining ways of training, but none of the "want it now" lot are prepared to do something that involves more common sense and is less 'cool'.

As regards a pilot's licence (ATPL) equating to a bachelor degree, they are entirely different: one is training for a 'technical' qualification, the other is education for an academic qualification.

Yes, things are tough. Very, very tough. For many, many people. Not just pilots. And all their lives matter.

So... Don't try to blame others. Don't think that you deserve 'special' treatment. (Much of the public see you as already starting with these present problems in a more 'privileged' position.) This is a huge shock for everyone. Try to get through it not feeling that you are a victim of actions of others. You are a victim of the same thing that is hitting everyone else. And, I'll repeat it, all their lives matter.

Aviation helped to spread this problem. BUT aviation has probably done more than most industries to promote world peace over the past half-a-century or more, by promoting trade and travel: people are far less likely to want to go to war with people that they met on holiday. People need to get back to travelling, so speak to all your friends and neighbours and tell them how safe and good air travel is for them. That is a first step towards helping yourselves.

But please ditch this discriminatory "xyz ... lives matter".

[wiggy]

Well said Noel..

[Icelanta]

but ATPL needs to transform into an Academic training once again, just like it was before bloody JAR/FCL!

Most young FO’s can’t even recognise clouds or interpret weather charts anymore, let alone understand the workings of a laser gyro or how Radio Navigation has developed into what it is now.

[sonicbum]

As regards a pilot's licence (ATPL) equating to a bachelor degree, they are entirely different: one is training for a 'technical' qualification, the other is education for an academic qualification.


Strongly disagree.
Every college/university can be qualified as "technical qualification". If You go to Med school You are not qualified to become a lawyer or an economist.
The ATPL theory per se, if done properly, could be easily compared with a bachelor's degree. If You add all the tons of extra info that as a pilot You go through or will at a certain point of Your career (type ratings, training qualifications, constant reading updates, etc..) it becomes certainly not less than University stuff.
Source : myself and a bachelor's in Law (although never worked with it).

[Gipsy Queen]

Many of you are correct in pointing out that this forum is not exclusively for pilots. However, someone started this thread as a conduit for pilots to discuss their specific situation.

If cabin crew or engineers want to have a similar discussion you are welcome to start a thread of your own within this very same forum. Why feel the need to hijack and guilt-trip the pilots for wanting a safe-space to air their grievances with individuals who are in a similar situation to themselves and therefore able to empathise
BV

In large measure, I agree Bob, but would go further; by title/definition, this IS a PILOTS' forum.
It is interesting that others, not being commercial or transport, contribute and their opinions can be complementary, but I view them as "guests" and they should behave accordingly. Sadly, what once was a more intimate and specialist forum has become a sort of extension to Facebook; this is particularly evident in the snake-pits lurking in JB where many (most?) have no apparent involvement with aviation at any level. I get particularly incensed by references to pilots' remuneration shielding them from the worst of the viral and similar consequences. These references habitually fail to recognise that pilots also make the greatest personal investments in their profession.

[Meester proach]

I think I’d buy Bob and gypsy a beer .

[woptb]

Some of you have “spat the dummy”,comparing yourself with nurses, ludicrous!
Yes it’s awful, but you ‘literally’ pay your money and take your choices, the value of your investments may go down,as well as up.If you’d like some consolation from fellow professionals, show a little humility.
By the by, if you choose the right Masters your ATPL is the equivalent of a first degree, take a look at London City’s Aviation Masters courses.

[Huntaway]

Yes it’s awful, but you ‘literally’ pay your money and take your choices, the value of your investments may go down,as well as up.

​​​​​​Harsh as it sounds this is the crux of the matter (IMHO) and what makes the pilot situation unique and so painful. In the cold light of day, becoming a pilot in this era is a gamble (or an investment if you prefer). You pay your £100k+, and you're essentially fast-tracked into a highly respectable career with good earning potential. Compare that to doctors, lawyers, architects etc; 5yrs+ (and debt) and you're still only on the bottom rung of the profession. The downside is that aviation is a volatile industry and vulnerable to shocks. I've lost count of the number of threads I've seen pilots telling potential trainees that is a very cyclic industry, and to have a plan B in place before you sign up. Sadly, that's probably easy to overlook with talk of pilot shortages and ATOs selling the dream.

​​​You could write a dissertation for your ATPL degree on how we got to where we are, but it's no comfort to anyone currently staring down the barrel of a gun. I went to flight school in my thirties and I'm very lucky with my circumstances (for now), but my heart absolutely breaks for classmates and more recent graduates who are still in debt and don't know if there will be jobs for them on the other side.

[Bob Viking]

That is a very kind offer but there is no need. Remember I have no dog in this fight. I am a military pilot but have a lot of friends who are hugely affected. I’m very lucky and Covid hasn’t affected me financially but why must we all race to the bottom?

Does it remind anyone of the Monty Python sketch? The one where they compete about who had a harder upbringing?

Of course pilots aren’t special but they are allowed to have a whinge just like everyone else.

[guy_incognito]

but ATPL needs to transform into an Academic training once again, just like it was before bloody JAR/FCL!

Most young FO’s can’t even recognise clouds or interpret weather charts anymore, let alone understand the workings of a laser gyro or how Radio Navigation has developed into what it is now.

Why does it need to transform into an academic qualification?

Not once in my career would an intimate technical knowledge of a laser gyro have added anything useful to the situation. I'm yet to meet an FO who can't interpret a weather chart or who couldn't "recognise clouds".

[sonicbum]

Why does it need to transform into an academic qualification?



1 - because it adds extra value to the profession, i.e. You do not hold the same education level of a cab or truck driver (with all due respect). This becomes important when negotiating T&Cs.
2 - from a social point of view, You hold the same education as the above mentioned categories (and many more - again no disrespect intended) unless You have some other qualifications on the side. Now, I believe being a Professional Pilot involves a slighter higher degree of intellectual and cognitive skills - let alone the amount of study material - than a plumber, but in terms of education there is a very minor difference.
3 - As a bachelor's holder myself, I can 100% vouch to award an academic education to ATPLs, definitely with some extra conditions to be added and agreed upon.

[wiggy]

guy_incognito

An ATPL at the current level should equip you to read the charts, if you go to degree level knowledge I'd suggest the candidate would need a deeper understanding of what lies beneath.

For example back in the day as an ATPL holder you simply needed to know that HF generally worked best on lower frequencies at night..the Physics graduate in the RHS :8 might actually have known why in some detail why that was that case but that knowledge definitely wasn't required...

Pretty much any subject can be brought up to a three year degree level course if given enough content and or depth (witness some courses at UK Uni's), but the emphasis and selling point for the ATPL seems (at least until recently) to get the qualification ASAP/PDQ..anything above minimum course content conflicts with that mission and would add to the cost.

Now if the ATOs can sell a 90 week or more academic plus flying package when aviation gets back to normal, then, just maybe, it will be worth discussing the merits of the ATPL being degree equivalent..until then.

[galacticosh]

70 Mustang

:D Sir, if it was possible to give out awards here, that would deserve it

[guy_incognito]

sonicbum

I return to why? What you're proposing is learning for the sake of it. Education for its own sake is a perfectly worthy aim, but it adds nothing to the day to day operation of an aircraft.

As the holder of a degree from a top university, I can 100% vouch for an ATPL having no equivalence to rigorous academic study. There is simply no comparison. That's not to say that one qualification is better or more worthy than the other; they serve completely different purposes.

As to your second point: I was chatting to a mate who was a journo for The Telegraph and The Sun among others. Airline pilot is considered by the media in the UK not to be a profession equivalent to medicine or law, but rather a skilled trade equivalent to plumbing. It is a vocation rather than an academic discipline.

[Meester proach]

RE, academic or not ....who cares ?

If I wanted a degree I’d have been to university . There was nothing of interest. I wanted to be a pilot and nothing fitted the bill....I had a vague interest in space, but I was average at maths and physics.

The thing with the ATPL exams is the volume ( there’s nothing particularly difficult ) and the fact there is a large clump of them, combined with ( in my case ) part time study as well as a job. I was overjoyed to get first time passes. Flying is not academic , it’s about mental agility .

I don’t need BA or BSc after my name . In actual fact 2/3 of my peers that did degrees never used them for that purpose they were intended .

[UV]

I think there is a big misunderstanding about what is an ATPL.

Some say FO’s cannot read charts, understand Radio Nav or recognise clouds(!). Well you might be surprised to know that your FO does NOT hold an ATPL

He/she holds a CPL/IR and a frozen ATPL, or whatever they call it today.

It is going to take him some years to accumulate the remaining hours (1500) bearing in mind co pilot time is halfed.

Only then, when he has done perhaps 2-2500 hours total flying (on the job training) will he earn the coveted ATPL.

Any comparison with a degree should be done at that stage.

Oh and, maybe, by then he can recognise a CB!

[wiggy]

Your CPL holder has probably peaked academically, in terms of knowing about lots of "stuff", at the point they have taken their exams..and these exams are not pitched at degree level.

They'll move on to becoming a more experienced pilot by the time they reach 2500 hours but I'd hazard a guess whilst their hand/eye skills may have got better and they'll have a grasp of the specific knowledge needed for day today line operation their knowledge across the whole range of ATPL subjects will have decayed.

2500 hours of flying doesn't make you better at reading a sigmet chart or understanding why on a particular day the trop. over Siberia is below 20,000 feet than the CPL candidate going into their met exam..if they've gone to an organisation that used computerised performance data I'd hazard a guess the 2500 hour pilot may well have forgotten some of the little performance gems and wrinkles that they needed to be aware of when walking into the exam hall.

Nothing wrong with any of that, they should be better equipped to do the job after 2500 hours, but that is what makes (IMHO) the ATPL a vocational qualification, not a degree.

[Banana Joe]

He/she holds a CPL/IR and a frozen ATPL, or whatever they call it today.

It is going to take him some years to accumulate the remaining hours (1500) bearing in mind co pilot time is halfed.



It isn't halfed, and up to 100 hours in the simulator can be counted towards the requirements to take an ATPL skills test, so it can be done with 1400 hours of actual flying time.

[UV]

I was talking about the UK licence ....

[Banana Joe]

Right, as far as I know, you guys are still part of EASA and not everybody on here is from the UK.

[dkatwa]

Yup....can't wait to travel again... places to see, things to do, friends to meet....the air travel industry is important and i respect those who work in it - from pilots (how do you land such a big plane?!) to baggage handlers (thanks for reuniting us) and everyone else ...blue skies soon I pray...

[NoelEvans]

We need more of you ... !!