Virgin Australia to become more like Virgin America? [Archive]

MelbourneFlyer

15th Jun 2020, 01:24

Cyrus Capital is one of the two finalists to take over Virgin Australia, it was a 'cornerstone investor' in Virgin America, so no surprise that it wants to remake Virgin Australia like Virgin America, as a mid-market 'hybrid' airline, smaller, domestic and short-haul only, 737s-only, dropping Tigerair and bringing back that 'Virgin' vibe.

Some interesting quotes from the article.
Virgin Australia 2.0 “should sit below that very top tier of where Qantas plays so strongly in, and above and maybe overlapping slightly where Jetstar sits"
"We had a lot of success in the US with Virgin America with the hybrid business model, which is a model that has product and service that appeals to the business traveller but a cost-base able to provide a range of fares that can appeal to the value-orientated leisure traveller and that encompasses passengers who fly on Tiger today.”
“We think there's a really sweet spot in the middle where Virgin can play very strongly. And that's exactly what we saw in the States with Virgin America.”
“We believe Virgin Australia can be the best airline in Australia It doesn't have to be the biggest – Virgin America wasn't the biggest – but it can be the best, and we think that it will be.”
"We would like to bring back that core DNA of the Virgin brand and reinvigorate the service and the culture. Our plan would be to harness the power of the Virgin brand and bring back some of that sort of early challenger DNA.”

https://www.executivetraveller.com/news/cyrus-wants-virgin-australia-to-be-a-smaller-mid-market-airline

wheels_down

15th Jun 2020, 01:42

Putting Tiger to bed. About time!

Turnleft080

15th Jun 2020, 01:48

Cyrus are on then money here. Especially when business won't be the same as zoom has arrived.

Ollie Onion

15th Jun 2020, 01:51

We travelled on Virgin America on a number of occasions and they were awesome, absolutely a step above the normal low cost offering but for a great price.

Goat Whisperer

15th Jun 2020, 01:54

I've flown VX and VA, in different cabin (VX had a premium economy that was analogous to VA's Economy Plus). Similar products. I don't know what changes they could make to make the Australian product more like the American one. Apart from ditching widebodies.

non_state_actor

15th Jun 2020, 02:20

I don't know what changes they could make to make the Australian product more like the American one. Apart from ditching widebodies

And paying A320 Captains 85K a year........

BNEA320

15th Jun 2020, 02:27

Cyrus are on then money here. Especially when business won't be the same as zoom has arrived.
don't think zoom will have much effect. Face to face is where business happens, not video link.

TT738

15th Jun 2020, 02:30

And paying A320 Captains 85K a year........
well one thing is for sure, they won't be paying what VA did. Don't even mention that you don't like that anywhere, or you won't be hired.

nvfr

15th Jun 2020, 02:40

PoppaJo

15th Jun 2020, 02:46

Virgin Australia 2.0 “should sit below that very top tier of where Qantas plays so strongly in, and above and maybe overlapping slightly where Jetstar sits"

umm isn’t that exactly where Virgin Australia was sitting before this whole mess?
You will probably find they might now have a tighter seat pitch at the back with carry on only, then standard Cabin, Cabin plus, and Business.

Turnleft080

15th Jun 2020, 03:57

umm isn’t that exactly where Virgin Australia was sitting before this whole mess?

No!!!! JB wanted it to be the next Qantas for reasons we all know why?

ShandywithSugar

15th Jun 2020, 04:06

The few pilots at VA I've spoken with are adamant they're not taking a pay cut.

Stationair8

15th Jun 2020, 04:18

ShandywithSugar, two types of pilot the employed one and the unemployed one!

anonfly

15th Jun 2020, 04:58

When and if VA gets purchased the current EBAs go with it. So in saying that they will be payed less is wrong.
Of course everything is up for negotiation but adding complexity in changing work rules, entering negotiations is time consuming and costly. I imagine the current EBA will be rolled over for a further 2-3 years with some concessions and amendments made to help cater the new owner if one arises.
Before going into administration the NB EBA was most likely going to get rolled over anyway.
Also a well paid pilot group isn’t what stops an airline turning a profit as demonstrated by Qantas. Best paid pilots in the country.

Icarus2001

15th Jun 2020, 05:18

The few pilots at VA I've spoken with are adamant they're not taking a pay cut. First issue is do ANY pilots keep their job. Second issue is how many lose their job if a sale goes ahead. As above, the EBAs stand unless negotiated away.

KARNAK66

15th Jun 2020, 05:35

Putting Tiger to bed. About time!
I knew people that were involved with Tiger,not great info was forthcoming from them would one suspicious as to what was happenung.
I was aware that the chief pilot, a
Great pilot abd a great guy bailed out andbwent to a high powered position in QuatarnAirways.
Anybody can fill in the rest of the blanks please.
Thanks in advanced.

The Bullwinkle

15th Jun 2020, 05:52

The few pilots at VA I've spoken with are adamant they're not taking a pay cut.
You probably need to speak with a few more then.
Most of the ones I’ve spoken to would rather lose a few bucks and still have a job than maintain their current salary right out the door.

Elijah B

15th Jun 2020, 06:22

Putting Tiger to bed. About time!
Tigerair will be back as I hear crew are being rostered for training.

TimmyTee

15th Jun 2020, 06:23

Potentially a somewhat positive thread with regards to VAs future:

*TOLLING BELL*
“Bring out your QF employed posters’ highly vested-opinions!”

Scooter Rassmussin

15th Jun 2020, 06:52

Will be a bunfight for jobs at the new VA if they go Airbus , im sure the Tiger guys will be trying as well as some junior JQ guys and gals.

smiling monkey

15th Jun 2020, 07:07

ozbiggles

15th Jun 2020, 07:15

2 comments in a row both wrong.

slice

15th Jun 2020, 07:41

Virgin America was sold to Alaska Airlines for US$2.6bn. I’ll take that😌

Climb150

15th Jun 2020, 07:43

And the year it was acquired it posted a 215 million dollar profit.

knackered IV

15th Jun 2020, 09:05

I knew people that were involved with Tiger,not great info was forthcoming from them would one suspicious as to what was happenung.
I was aware that the chief pilot, a
Great pilot abd a great guy bailed out andbwent to a high powered position in QuatarnAirways.
Anybody can fill in the rest of the blanks please.
Thanks in advanced.
Looks like you've got of the blanks filled in yourself!

lucille

15th Jun 2020, 11:54

The few pilots at VA I've spoken with are adamant they're not taking a pay cut.

Tell your mates to accept whatever is offered, bide their time, keep current and marketable. Eventually the market will turn and there will be a pilot shortage offering good opportunities for better paying opportunities.Eventually the pilot jobs market will change - it always does. Sitting it out while remaining current is the key.

Option B Is driving Ubers. Fine, if that’s what they want.The good thing is they will be able to wear their uniform shirt and four bars while driving the wife’s Corolla.

oicur12.again

15th Jun 2020, 16:40

And paying A320 Captains 85K a year........

Off the mark by more than 100%.

oicur12.again

15th Jun 2020, 16:44

I believe Virgin America were bailed out and absorbed by Alaska Airlines when VX were in financial trouble. Makes you wonder if the VX business plan didn't work for them in the US, then why would it work here in Australia?

VX was not bailed out by AS.

AS paid a significant amount of money for VX primarily as a blocking move to keep the PNW and CA from falling completely into UA and DL hands.

As for pilot pay, we are all going to take a hit, the industry will not be like it was before.

I wish all pilots at the new VA the best of luck but I suggest a flexible approach be taken when offering your skills on the labor market.

vee1-rotate

15th Jun 2020, 17:59

VX product was incredible! I primarily fly JetBlue now, mainly due to the fact it's product and service offerings are most similarly aligned with those that VX had.

If they can pull off the trendy, VX-style service and product they are on to a winner. VA went from silly and unprofessional (see early DJ days of dancing in the aisles) to the most recent VA, trying to clone the QF model.

RodH

15th Jun 2020, 20:36

It would seem quite likely that VA will start up again but in a different format.
It would be a great pity IMOP for them to ditch the fabulous Business Class that VA had , mainly on the B777 and A330's.
Having flown both VA and QF in both Classes quite a bit i would say without any doubt the onboard service of VA is better than QF but on the ground QF win hands down with their rather good lounges.
VA were doing quite well in the late stages and were on the road to profits until Covid-19 well and truly stuffed that!
QF have always had an advantage with Corporate travel as they got most Govt. Contracts and the attraction of their far better lounges did not help VA win many Corporate flyers over either.
Dropping The VA Business Class as it was would be quite a shame as it will just give the leprechaun everything he wanted , total dominance in the Corporate sector.
Without any reasonable competition in Business Class QF can write their own rules and fare structures.
Sad to see a piece of aviation history and service go down the gurgler.
I guess the bright side of things is that hopefully most VA employees will have a job and that's the most important thing but my comments are only about Business Class demise in VA.
Maybe the new owners will keep Business Class as it is but the reports don't seem to think that will happen.
I will really miss VA in Business Class.

MickG0105

16th Jun 2020, 00:10

VA were doing quite well in the late stages and were on the road to profits until Covid-19 well and truly stuffed that!

Rod, there was nothing in Virgin's FY20-H1 interim report that could be seen as having them 'on the road to profits'. To the contrary, that half year result, all booked before COVID-19 came onto the scene, was Virgin's worst half year performance since the GFC. Apart from revenue, almost every key business metric was going backwards, some quite alarmingly. Most notably, the profitability of Domestic, the engine room of the business, had slumped by nearly 40 percent. And for the first time since the business was floated it had a negative Net Equity position (ie debts and liabilities exceeded assets).

Had the coronavirus crisis not emerged Virgin were on their way to another monumental loss this FY, likely something in the order of half a billion in the red.

non_state_actor

16th Jun 2020, 03:24

Off the mark by more than 100%.

The highest paid pilot in a renegotiate agreement in 2013 got paid about 127K for 75 hour guarantee as a Captain. They used sliding scales with years of service so it is all downhill from there. First year Captain made around 101k. And that was 7 years after they first started. 2nd Year FO made 63K. It's all by the hour so it would depend on how many hours you flew over 75. Either way you wouldn't be living anywhere near San Francisco on that money at the time

Icarus2001

16th Jun 2020, 03:28

It would be really useful if you expressed those dollars as AUD or USD.

non_state_actor

16th Jun 2020, 03:51

That was US Dollars

Tubman601

16th Jun 2020, 04:48

What US pilots get paid is totally irrelevant. You can buy a house for there 250K and a new Mustang for 35000. The cost of living is very different.

topend3

16th Jun 2020, 04:55

What US pilots get paid is totally irrelevant. You can buy a house for there 250K and a new Mustang for 35000. The cost of living is very different.

You can buy a house here for 250K too....in Mudgee

non_state_actor

16th Jun 2020, 08:38

What US pilots get paid is totally irrelevant. You can buy a house for there 250K and a new Mustang for 35000. The cost of living is very different.

Point being that the pay was very very low ball compared to all other operators of the similar equipment at the time.

Traffic_Is_Er_Was

16th Jun 2020, 11:26

We believe Virgin Australia can be the best airline in Australia. It doesn't have to be the biggest – Virgin America wasn't the biggest – but it can be the best,
Isn't that what the previous management thought? How'd that work out for them?

wheels_down

16th Jun 2020, 11:35

USA is a hard one to compare remuneration wise. You’ve got loco’s over there that pay more than the likes of Delta. Southwest has always paid a premium vs the competitors. But yes living is cheaper. Considerably. $hithole to live though.

Virgin America paid much less during its founding years just like many startups. Go back to Tiger Australia startup. Very similar low comparable salaries compared to the competitor. Eventually they caught up and were a quarter ahead of the competition. Sadly then it was goodnight Irene.

Pay has come a very long way over there compared to 10-15 years ago. Remember Skybus? Paid its Airbus drivers 65k/100k. Cabin Crew $9 an hour.

biigD

16th Jun 2020, 12:02

Point being that the pay was very very low ball compared to all other operators of the similar equipment at the time.

Yep. Here was a chance for a bunch of young pilots - tired of waiting around for jobs elsewhere - to fly a shiny new Airbus in a hip environment. Fresh faced FAs, and no tie! So they went to work for pennies on the dollar. Worked out for them eventually though - got gobbled up by Alaska and started being paid more appropriately.

JPJP

16th Jun 2020, 19:58

The highest paid pilot in a renegotiate agreement in 2013 got paid about 127K for 75 hour guarantee as a Captain. They used sliding scales with years of service so it is all downhill from there. First year Captain made around 101k. And that was 7 years after they first started. 2nd Year FO made 63K. It's all by the hour so it would depend on how many hours you flew over 75. Either way you wouldn't be living anywhere near San Francisco on that money at the time

Uhhh ...... No. :suspect:

Here’s the ALPA Contract Comparison prepared by their Economic and Financial Analysis Department. (Dated Jan 2015).

On page 8 you’ll find a graph showing a rate of $189.00 (US) per hour. On a very conservative average of 1000 pay hours a year (including vacation & training). That’s $189K (US) per year for a Captain. Or $260K (Aust) per year at the exchange rates Dec 2015. Not great money by any means, but they were a new entrant and still making their bones.

Reference:

http://www3.alpa.org/portals/alpa/jetblue2/files/JetBlue%20Pilot%20Contract%20Comparison%20March%202015.pdf

Good luck to all Virgin Australia pilots and employees. Hope it works out.

oicur12.again

16th Jun 2020, 20:18

The highest paid pilot in a renegotiate agreement in 2013 got paid about 127K for 75 hour guarantee as a Captain. They used sliding scales with years of service so it is all downhill from there. First year Captain made around 101k. And that was 7 years after they first started. 2nd Year FO made 63K. It's all by the hour so it would depend on how many hours you flew over 75. Either way you wouldn't be living anywhere near San Francisco on that money at the timeAn average captain was making about 170k-180k under the VX pay scales.

Maybe 80 hours stick per month, throw in some premium pay and a little soft credit also.

And at 75 hours min credit with FLICA pref bid, it was reasonably easy to complete the months allocation in 11-12 days in the top half of the list.

Made for an easily commutable roster to anywhere in the world.

VX was a good airline and a reasonable place to work as a pilot and no skipper was being paid anywhere as low as 85K.

Oz Pilot

16th Jun 2020, 22:41

The few pilots at VA I've spoken with are adamant they're not taking a pay cut.

thats an easy reply as I work there - We won’t have a say in the matter otherwise the new owners will not renew your contract/EBA. It’s 1989 all over again, haven’t you people learnt anything?
With thousands of pilots out of work it won’t take long to find another, just look to your left or right yep the ones you called your friends as they’ll take it in a heartbeat. Seen it all before people fact not fiction

The Bullwinkle

17th Jun 2020, 03:13

thats an easy reply as I work there - We won’t have a say in the matter otherwise the new owners will not renew your contract/EBA. It’s 1989 all over again, haven’t you people learnt anything?
With thousands of pilots out of work it won’t take long to find another, just look to your left or right yep the ones you called your friends as they’ll take it in a heartbeat. Seen it all before people fact not fiction
Wouldn’t you prefer to take a pay cut, keep your job and just possibly save your airline?
I know I would.

biigD

17th Jun 2020, 11:50

Wouldn’t you prefer to take a pay cut, keep your job and just possibly save your airline?
I know I would.

Not sure of the situation out there, but here in the states I'm unaware of *any* time in aviation's history where concessions saved even one job, let alone the airline. And when the airline is back to making record profits, the pilots have to fight tooth and nail to get even a portion of those concessions back. Yeah, no thanks.

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE

17th Jun 2020, 23:22

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1334x750/2a093c7f_c593_4c4b_be41_6e74972b0dbf_974287b3aa32e9b06311987 f4a31993d58695d94.png
From The Australian, succinct summary of each party’s plan, neither going to resurrect Tiger.

Ragnor

17th Jun 2020, 23:33

No mention of the ATRs no mention of VARA 320s and F100s

Lookleft

18th Jun 2020, 00:05

chookcooker

18th Jun 2020, 00:18

No mention of how they will operate in a recession. They make it look like they will just pick up where they left it in March. If one of the strategies is to talk about a deep focus on culture of the company then the game of BS bingo has already started.

yes smaller fleet of all 737 and 787 in fututure sounds exactly like 80 737, tiger 737, tiger a320, VARA atr, VARA f100, VARA a320, vanz 737, A330, 777.
thats only what’s gleamed from the first line of the graphic.
now add in all the secret squirrel stuff that’s not being released due NDAs yet.

but yes, apart from that, sounds exactly the same as March.

Rabbitwear

18th Jun 2020, 00:29

VARA May get sold to Alliance for a considerable sum as it doesn’t appear to be in the plan of new owners .

Icarus2001

18th Jun 2020, 01:20

I agree VARA is a sale target, not a bad thing really. Would be crazy to shut down a busy and profitable business unit. The disruption to mines would be a threat which may even involve the WA government?

B772

18th Jun 2020, 03:33

Talk around the traps is Cyrus being the preferred purchaser by all concerned. No one thinks Bain will be anointed by the administrator. This could all become unstuck if Bain offer more dollars. The unions will be disappointed.

dr dre

18th Jun 2020, 04:15

Maggie Island

18th Jun 2020, 04:28

In that infographic that states Cyrus would operate a "slightly bigger fleet to start with", I assume that's slightly bigger than the fleet size Bain were proposing? I doubt it would be slightly bigger than the current VA fleet.

If they time it well they could snatch a significant market share from right under Alans nose. Their timing would have to be next to perfect though...

Goat Whisperer

18th Jun 2020, 06:34

In that infographic that states Cyrus would operate a "slightly bigger fleet to start with", I assume that's slightly bigger than the fleet size Bain were proposing? I doubt it would be slightly bigger than the current VA fleet.

Definitely larger than Bain's fleet, not larger that VA Group's pre-Covid fleet.

We've already lost 23% of our pilots and the big axe hasn't fallen yet.

Lookleft

19th Jun 2020, 03:24

If they time it well they could snatch a significant market share from right under Alans nose.

Alan I think is more than happy to let a competitor have 30% of the market. I think he has enough on his plate without fretting over what the next domestic competitor looks like.

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE

19th Jun 2020, 03:45

If they time it well they could snatch a significant market share from right under Alans nose. Their timing would have to be next to perfect though...

I don’t think this will happen

wheels_down

19th Jun 2020, 04:10

mppgf

19th Jun 2020, 04:40

Jetstar are on the front foot releasing July schedule today alongside a full suite of new pricing. Appears all bases are kickstarting and all routes. Going in pretty hard.

QF wouldn’t be far behind.

Not quite all. 3 Out of 7 bases are opening and some associated routes from said bases.

MickG0105

19th Jun 2020, 05:46

Talk around the traps is Cyrus being the preferred purchaser by all concerned.
Cyrus has just one teensy-weensy, very minor little problem at the moment - they can't fund their bid.

Word is that they are desperately scrounging around for financing partners. Apparently not everyone with money is as bullish on their market assessments and proposed business model as they are. "That's what you said about Flybe." is said to be a commonly repeated response to their advances.

wheels_down

19th Jun 2020, 06:18

Not quite all. 3 Out of 7 bases are opening and some associated routes from said bases.
Sorry yes looks like some other base flying done out of Sydney.

Avalon and Cairns still a no go?

PoppaJo

19th Jun 2020, 06:34

Sorry yes looks like some other base flying done out of Sydney.

Avalon and Cairns still a no go?
Not yet.

Avalon should come back as it’s all a Dan Andrews taxpayer funded deal. Pulling aircraft out of there probably puts that at risk.

Cairns who knows. They will need a base for 321LR runs to Japan in the not to distant future so axing the base isn’t logical to myself.

ANstar

19th Jun 2020, 07:21

Not quite all. 3 Out of 7 bases are opening and some associated routes from said bases.

I believe its 4 bases.

AKL
MEL/AVV dual base
SYD
BNE

I reckon ADL/CHC might be in for the chop for cabin crew base perspective. Might survive as pilot bases.

ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE

19th Jun 2020, 07:39

I believe its 4 bases.

AKL
MEL/AVV dual base
SYD
BNE

I reckon ADL/CHC might be in for the chop for cabin crew base perspective. Might survive as pilot bases.

Not AVV, it’s not a part of the Melbourne base from a tech crew perspective.

my money would be on PER getting the chop, given they only do bali, which won’t be back till at least 2021 and even when it does it can be crew by east coast crew overnighting on BOCs.