CX management. Moral Turpidude

[mngmt mole]

I wish to address the current situation. Basically, the failure of CX management to clearly state the facts regarding the current contractual status of the CX pilots contracts demonstrates their complete moral turpitude. It has been almost 4 months now that the company has imposed draconian and oppressive conditions upon their employed pilots (the worst case being that of the Aus based pilots who have seen their pay cut by 50%).

The company has an obligation to clearly explain to their pilots (and their families) what is expected from them on a long term basis. Further, it is obligated that the company should quickly explain what the future of a pilots career at CX entails.

There are hundreds of pilots and their families who are living in a constant state of stress and foreboding. The company needs to quickly bring the current uncertainty to an end.

Our management already knows what is coming. It is now time to inform their pilots what is proposed. Remember: the pilots of this airline have established the reputation and currency of this company. Do not treat that legacy with anything other than respect and consideration.

Do NOT think that you can treat your pilots with contempt and abuse. They will not bow down to anything other than a fair and equitable contract.

[Coronavirus]

Everything you wrote makes perfect sense in theory, assuming you completely ignore present day reality.

Come April1st, they will need to let 25-30% of the pilots.

​​​​​They will restructure the airline. They will downsize.

There will be no more arapa. Everyone will be on cos18 on steroids.

You will sign over without complaining because there are no pilot jobs anywhere in the world.

If you think you're not replaceable, you have your head so far up your own rear end, you are truly hopeless.

Stop complaining, be grateful, sit back, relax, and enjoy the Cathay Pacific service.
​​​​​

[YellowFever777]

Be careful what you wish for, we've been extremely fortunate thus far. Save as much as you can from those pay cheques that you're still receiving every month in case something dire happens down the line.

[AllWobbly]

Just spoke to old colleagues who are now in Virgin and BA. They are facing the same dilemma.
Purely a personal view but it wouldn’t surprise me if airline managers worldwide were at a loss as to how to deal with the situation. Especially those that never had to face serious competition or were in an environment where they had a monopoly?

[fly1981]

compared to the rest of the world, cx management have done pretty well. How do you Make solid decisions based on something you have no control over, and no clue which direction it is going...

[Frogman1484]

Mole give me a break will you. Do you think that BA or EK have done a better job, what about QF and Qatari? You are unbelievable!!!

[Farman Biplane]

How about we use that clause in ALL of the pilots contracts about letting people go from the bottom of the ASL, as per the design of the contract.
We are all party to that redundancy clause as the contract is between the pilot and CX/Basing company.
It was blatantly acceptable when the contract was offered/signed, so why are we avoiding it now?
Yes, it is not pleasant for those let go, but it could have happened to any or all of us at the beginning of our time here. That is what seniority is.

[Harbour Dweller]

Whilst certainly far from perfect, CX pilots continue to ride this out better than most others around the world at the moment.

Sure the Aussie bases are the hardest hit, but their comrades at Virgin Australia and QF are on government handouts to pay the bills.

Have your plan B and C ready! It going to be a brave new world out there.

[CodyBlade]

I know 4 of my mates in UK,middle E and Europe who are on Furlough now.

They are very down.

[Oasis]

Talking about the union, why is there not clarity about how they will get rid of pilot, are we talking seniority, merit, sick days?
The AOA should have had that on the top of the list of questions they sent to management.

Jesus, big picture guys.

Why aren’t they asking us what questions to ask.. are they afraid of the answers?

emirates and ba both disregarding the seniority list, maybe others too, are we going the same way I wonder.

So far the company has been excellent, maybe a little too excellent.. to take 10 months to make corrections to the workforce is quite something in a case like this.
but you have to hand it to them, they want the family to stay together.

[Hugo Peroni the V]

The GC doesn’t have a clue which way is up. What are you expecting? Disjoint, immoral, self interest. The faithful are blind to reality.

[mngmt mole]

My criticism is solely directed to the ongoing lack of direction and decision as it pertains to the pilots. This is causing real and unrelenting anxiety to the entire pilot body. I am not suggesting that CX isn't handling the situation effectively, just that they need to announce what their plan is so the rest of us can begin to plan our futures. If anyone thinks we are going to bumble along and come out the other end unscathed...well, can't really help you.

[cxorcist]

My criticism is solely directed to the ongoing lack of direction and decision as it pertains to the pilots. This is causing real and unrelenting anxiety to the entire pilot body. I am not suggesting that CX isn't handling the situation effectively, just that they need to announce what their plan is so the rest of us can begin to plan our futures. If anyone thinks we are going to bumble along and come out the other end unscathed...well, can't really help you.
Nobody knows how this is going to go in the next 6-12 months and beyond. Therefore, it’s not unreasonable for the CX response to be undefined at this point. However, we all know CX will not need all of its pilots for a long time. Over 18 months+! So why are we continuing to train and drag new joiners along as CX is???

It’s a serious question which demands a serious answer. Don’t tell me junior guys on the 747, blah, blah, blah... 777 pilots could easily have been converted by now. We don’t need a pipeline of cheap, inexperienced pilots at this point. It’s continuation is a cynical move which assumes this will be paid for by concessions from senior pilots (SLS, etc). I know what my answer is.

I’m not interested in chopping myself and my peers off at the knees. I don’t owe NJers and cadets in ADL anything, just as the A scalers didn’t owe me anything when I joined. Being new and junior at an airline requires awareness that your training could be cancelled and/or your job could be lost until the airline needs you again. That how seniority works!

[Angel 8]

CX/KA do still have the option of making redundancies, however, in my humble opinion, this will not happen independently from making some other changes to contracts too. Simply because: If you are going to fly a reduced number of aeroplanes, then the salary/ benefits cost will still need to come down too. The talk about closing bases, golden handshake redundancies, last in first out etc are all in the mix. One thing is certain though, staff costs are irrelevant if the planes are grounded, hence the call to get the company to make its mind up soon. USD5 billion is nothing if you’re loosing 0.3 a month.

As for the AOA, just remind me of anytime this outfit has ever been successful in anything since 1993. They can tell us how to manage loneliness during lockdown, but they are not asking or engaging us in any meaningful discussion regarding our own, and their future.

Lets ask them to tell us what the company told them in their recent meeting, that’s a start.

[Asturias56]

"The company has an obligation to clearly explain to their pilots (and their families) what is expected from them on a long term basis. Further, it is obligated that the company should quickly explain what the future of a pilots career at CX entails."

I doubt you have that in writing...............

[Pickuptruck]

Nobody knows how this is going to go in the next 6-12 months and beyond. Therefore, it’s not unreasonable for the CX response to be undefined at this point. However, we all know CX will not need all of its pilots for a long time. Over 18 months+! So why are we continuing to train and drag new joiners along as CX is???

It’s a serious question which demands a serious answer. Don’t tell me junior guys on the 747, blah, blah, blah... 777 pilots could easily have been converted by now. We don’t need a pipeline of cheap, inexperienced pilots at this point. It’s continuation is a cynical move which assumes this will be paid for by concessions from senior pilots (SLS, etc). I know what my answer is.

I’m not interested in chopping myself and my peers off at the knees. I don’t owe NJers and cadets in ADL anything, just as the A scalers didn’t owe me anything when I joined. Being new and junior at an airline requires awareness that your training could be cancelled and/or your job could be lost until the airline needs you again. That how seniority works!
more clueless posts. I can think of over 40 airlines where layoffs by seniority haven’t been followed in the current economic climate. You are aware of this virus aren’t you, you don’t just think it a recession......

[1_of_600]

My criticism is solely directed to the ongoing lack of direction and decision as it pertains to the pilots. This is causing real and unrelenting anxiety to the entire pilot body. I am not suggesting that CX isn't handling the situation effectively, just that they need to announce what their plan is so the rest of us can begin to plan our futures. If anyone thinks we are going to bumble along and come out the other end unscathed...well, can't really help you.


...and there is the reason that many people disagree with you. Do you think that it maybe, just a little bit, perhaps, comes across as somewhat ARROGANT?

Has it occurred to you that there are, worldwide, people numbering in 10^8 (that's x00,000,000) who are currently or soon to be unemployed as a result of the shutdowns / lockdowns?

Yet all we hear from you is "...pilots, pilots, pilots. They owe us this, they are obligated to give us that." What about EVERYONE ELSE in the compan(y/ies) who also need to plan for their future?

I am not apologizing for nor defending CX (or any) management in any way. But seriously...

Ferchrissakes get a grip. It is not all about you pilots.

[hyg]

My criticism is solely directed to the ongoing lack of direction and decision as it pertains to the pilots. This is causing real and unrelenting anxiety to the entire pilot body. I am not suggesting that CX isn't handling the situation effectively, just that they need to announce what their plan is so the rest of us can begin to plan our futures. If anyone thinks we are going to bumble along and come out the other end unscathed...well, can't really help you.

I would like to think that applies to the entire airline group staff, not just pilots.... there's a Chinese saying that translate to 'instead of an agonising long term painful death, might as well just slit the throat now', everyone employed in the group would be anxious because of that blabbing by the company week in week out. People would be looking at worldwide news everyday, and see EK, Qatar, Etihad all these massive oil-rich countries shedding staff from all across, BA threatening to fire everyone etc, yet the company seem to be doing so little to preserve cash, which is contrary to what they say in the propaganda every week. And with the history of the company, everyone knows something's going to be up (or down), but the wait and dragging along does not help people planning their life. The false sense of security is probably going to do more harm than good for some staff.

[Progress Wanchai]

...and there is the reason that many people disagree with you. Do you think that it maybe, just a little bit, perhaps, comes across as somewhat ARROGANT?

Has it occurred to you that there are, worldwide, people numbering in 10^8 (that's x00,000,000) who are currently or soon to be unemployed as a result of the shutdowns / lockdowns?

Yet all we hear from you is "...pilots, pilots, pilots. They owe us this, they are obligated to give us that." What about EVERYONE ELSE in the compan(y/ies) who also need to plan for their future?

I am not apologizing for nor defending CX (or any) management in any way. But seriously...

Ferchrissakes get a grip. It is not all about you pilots.

Precisley.

This whole situation is such an unknown that any information the company or AOA give you today would be outdated tomorrow. We’re actually closer to a depression than a recession. In 1929 a worker doing one hour of work a week was considered unemployed. In 2020 he is countered in the employed column. It doesn’t feel like a depression yet as many of us are still the recipients of money for doing nothing, whether from companies or from governments. That source of income will soon be turned off for many, if not most.

How will the company determine which excessive staff will be let go? That question has been asked and answered on the AOA website. The answer may be cryptic, but only confusing if you don’t understand management speak.

[Dragon Pacific]

...and there is the reason that many people disagree with you. Do you think that it maybe, just a little bit, perhaps, comes across as somewhat ARROGANT?

Has it occurred to you that there are, worldwide, people numbering in 10^8 (that's x00,000,000) who are currently or soon to be unemployed as a result of the shutdowns / lockdowns?

Yet all we hear from you is "...pilots, pilots, pilots. They owe us this, they are obligated to give us that." What about EVERYONE ELSE in the compan(y/ies) who also need to plan for their future?

I am not apologizing for nor defending CX (or any) management in any way. But seriously...

Ferchrissakes get a grip. It is not all about you pilots.

uhh.... You do know it is a Pilots’ site?

[Asturias56]

Well... yes but all (well, the vast majority :ok:) of pilots are humans, but not all humans are pilots.....................

to be fair the longer the uncertainty goes on the less likely its going to be rain of fire & brimstone wiping out everyone - the planners can see light ahead - it's not pretty, and there will still be a lot of damage done but its not going to be a total wipe out

[spannersatcx]

uhh.... You do know it is a Pilots’ site?
Supposedly Professional ones as well :)

[highflyer40]

My criticism is solely directed to the ongoing lack of direction and decision as it pertains to the pilots. This is causing real and unrelenting anxiety to the entire pilot body. I am not suggesting that CX isn't handling the situation effectively, just that they need to announce what their plan is so the rest of us can begin to plan our futures. If anyone thinks we are going to bumble along and come out the other end unscathed...well, can't really help you.

The problem is it is the same with the entire world. Uncertainty everywhere. This is unprecedented. Pretty hard to think of a plan out of this when you don’t know what the world is going to look like in 1 month or 12 months.

It’s like giving you an exercise where you are given all the kit and personnel figures and told to plan an airline, except you are not allowed to have any numbers on proposed passengers or where you may or may not be allowed to fly. It’s an impossible exercise.

Everyone around the world is now starting to get fed up with the situation, including me, but until there is clarity there is no solution except to “bumble” along.

[jobe]

You know what? I'm feeling pretty fortunate right now. Still alive, still got a job.

[Flex88]

Read the link below and think carefully on who exactly is running CX ? Those now obviously in charge (shadow mgmt) have zero respect for any HK Laws (including labour law) and would consider thoughts of "Moral Turpitude" as much as they would which cereal for breakfast !!
CX is now a State Controlled entity and who actually owns the majority of shares have overtly been handed their "irrelevant" papers by Beijing.. Period !


https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3088873/hong-kong-protests-how-cathay-pacifics-wings-were-clipped

[Sam Ting Wong]

Flex,

1) Every company in Hong Kong has to follow Chinese rules or it will be out of business. The claim this obedience is somehow the result of a secret state control is wrong. It is a pragmatic necessity, and I am very glad our management is aware of that.
2) Our business is China. Every time we go to work we either transport Chinese people or Chinese goods or both. Face that reality. You are not on the other side, you and every employee of Cathay is supporting the Chinese economy and hence part of the system. Nobody forced you, you agreed to be part of the system by signing your contract. You might comfort yourself by saying you are actually a citizen of the free and independent Asia world city Hong Kong and your employer is just some ginger English toff. But the truth is you are working for China. You are directly profiting from the Chinese economic growth and you are hence effectively working for China from day one.
3) Your belief in HK law is a tad naive. HK law has no democratic roots whatsoever, HK people never had a voice. Beijing simply replaced the British rule. One country and two systems means one country and that country is China. The British knew that of course. What labor laws? F HK law is not the same as elsewhere and never was, plus industrial conflicts are a universal occurrence anyway. And you knew all that when you signed the contract. You and I decided to work in China for the financial incentives. Like our comrades in Dubai, Abu Dhabi,Qatar, Guangzhou or Singapore we signed up despite the lack of democracy and human rights in our new homes.

Mngmt Mole

you need to stop blaming management for just about everything that doesn't work out in your life. This is a global and very dynamic pandemic, your demands are ludicrous. Plus, don't forget, you can always leave and join companies that are managed the way you like it!

[mngmt mole]

STW. I'm not blaming the company for "everything that hasn't worked out in my life". I am calling out the company for what I know is a cynical and soulless strategy to create extreme levels of expectation management amongst the crew. The based pilots are fearing for not only their jobs, but the very basis of they and their families stability and existence. The HK pilots are being subject to daily articles in the SCMP, the chinese press and CX's own statements that all contain a foreboding as to the future. I understand completely that this current situation isn't of CX managements making, but I certainly hold them accountable for how they manage it. Don't doubt that when the hammer comes down, it will likely be a difficult day for all. The fact that this crisis has been ongoing now for almost 5 months, without any real direction or specifics from our management leaves them as the industry outlier. Don't attribute that to any sense of magnanimity towards the crew from our management. It is simply that it suits them in the overall strategy they are unveiling. CX management have spent 25+ years attacking the conditions of the aircrew. They have just obtained 5 billion USD from the HK Govt, and also sold 6 777's which alone provides them with enough capital to weather the storm. Ironically, if they leave things much longer, there will be too much light on the horizon to justify the most serious outcome. For that reason alone, I suppose the delay may prove fortuitous. It's the apparent complete lack of strategy towards the future that is most disturbing. Watching the serial debacles of the past 25 years I can't say i'm surprised by the current situation. Ultimately, this company has the best aircrew body in the industry, and they need to respect them and treat them properly. We'll see...

[Flex88]

Flex,

1) Every company in Hong Kong has to follow Chinese rules or it will be out of business. The claim this obedience is somehow the result of a secret state control is wrong. It is a pragmatic necessity, and I am very glad our management is aware of that.
2) Our business is China. Every time we go to work we either transport Chinese people or Chinese goods or both. Face that reality. You are not on the other side, you and every employee of Cathay is supporting the Chinese economy and hence part of the system. Nobody forced you, you agreed to be part of the system by signing your contract. You might comfort yourself by saying you are actually a citizen of the free and independent Asia world city Hong Kong and your employer is just some ginger English toff. But the truth is you are working for China. You are directly profiting from the Chinese economic growth and you are hence effectively working for China from day one.
3) Your belief in HK law is a tad naive. HK law has no democratic roots whatsoever, HK people never had a voice. Beijing simply replaced the British rule. One country and two systems means one country and that country is China. The British knew that of course. What labor laws? F HK law is not the same as elsewhere and never was, plus industrial conflicts are a universal occurrence anyway. And you knew all that when you signed the contract. You and I decided to work in China for the financial incentives. Like our comrades in Dubai, Abu Dhabi,Qatar, Guangzhou or Singapore we signed up despite the lack of democracy and human rights in our new homes.

Mngmt Mole

you need to stop blaming management for just about everything that doesn't work out in your life. This is a global and very dynamic pandemic, your demands are ludicrous. Plus, don't forget, you can always leave and join companies that are managed the way you like it!

Oh, I'm sorry. I was under the impression that it was a Public Companies Board and its Directors that run and manage a corporation.. Let me know what books you studied that indicate G men from other countries run the show..
BTW, "my" life has worked out perfectly thank you very much however as you seem to root for the other team and its methods, I'm not as optimistic about yours...

[Sue Ridgepipe]

Ultimately, this company has the best aircrew body in the industry
All hail the almighty CX sky gods ...

[MENELAUS]

All hail the almighty CX sky gods ...


And your point is ?

[badge42]

She means you're a prima donna Herr Globočnik.

[badge42]

I've got another issue, apart from some 'Kunt' using a Nazi War Criminal as a pseudonym.

mngmt mole wrote this..... 'Do NOT think that you can treat your pilots with contempt and abuse.'

Hey, M&M. Ever look at yourself in the mirror? I want you to make another post and state that you have never, ever written anything on PPRunNe quite deliberately treating your junior pilots with 'contempt and abuse'. I dare you. Only 800+ posts for us to get a glimpse of your mind.

[badge42]

Ever wondered why the Cathay Pilot group has no strength? No cohesion. No Camaraderie. No Esprit De Corps?

Look in the mirror Mate. The answers are right there. ;-)

We have seen no leadership from the likes of you.

[mngmt mole]

Feel free to troll through all 800. I'll happily stand by everything i've written. Each post reflective of the time and subject in point. CX does have the best "aircrew body" in the industry, but that doesn't mean that all parts of it are well thought through. Overall standards are the highest in the industry. You might want to reflect on the reason for that....it might have something to do with the legacy experience and backgrounds of the remaining senior crew. We can revisit this subject 15 years from now to perhaps reconsider. In the meantime, the company is looking to trash everyone's careers to turn CX into just another asian airline. Don't doubt it. And btw...you have no idea what sort of leadership I have or have not provided. In my now 30 years plus in the company, I've done my share of lifting...and my share of screwing up as well ;-),

[main_dog]

Don’t worry Badge and Sue, every single legacy carrier in the world is convinced they have the “best aircrew body in the industry” ;)

[Busbitch]

It's starting to look like Cathay Pacific is positioning itself to be last man standing, on the doorstep of the fastest growing aviation market in the world. If they pull it off a lot of great stuff in the pipeline for the whole company. Who knows maybe Pilots & management might be able to bury the Hatchett finally, now that would be nice.

[Sue Ridgepipe]

Yeah that's true main_dog, I think FIGJAM is the appropriate term we used to use. :D

[Gnadenburg]

Don’t worry Badge and Sue, every single legacy carrier in the world is convinced they have the “best aircrew body in the industry” ;)

I thought it just a Hong Kong thing? Very seventies!

The game's evolved. Best aircrew? Industrially, CRM wise, technically, adaptability, or everyday skills set. Sectors make a difference- also, are you allowed to fly visually or expected to circle?

I'd goes as far to consider how peers are supported, both structurally and voluntarily. A high command failure rate too, isn't a measure of the the aircrew bodys' capabilities but an often appalling reflection of the pilot body itself.

We could talk LOSA and demerit points in the PRC. I've heard the board a bit more interested in this than if you flew Phantoms in the Cold War. As I said, a very seventies attitude and believe it at your own peril. We are down the road where you are literally as good as your last flight. Wouldn't want to be cocking up in this environment- Just Culture is for good times- with so much at stake when flying into the PRC for example, its almost best to have a wartime like diligence.

[Sam Ting Wong]

The likelihood of dying in an air crash is 0.00000003 % per trip or 1 in 30 million.

Statistically it doesn't really matter which airline you choose, at least not from a safety point of view.

Any discussion among pilots of regular airlines who is "better" or "the best" is cringeworthy.

Better in what? By what measurement?
Simply absurd.

PS even the worst third world carrier is safer than your Uber to the airport.

[YellowFever777]

Feel free to troll through all 800. I'll happily stand by everything i've written. Each post reflective of the time and subject in point. CX does have the best "aircrew body" in the industry, but that doesn't mean that all parts of it are well thought through. Overall standards are the highest in the industry. You might want to reflect on the reason for that....it might have something to do with the legacy experience and backgrounds of the remaining senior crew. We can revisit this subject 15 years from now to perhaps reconsider. In the meantime, the company is looking to trash everyone's careers to turn CX into just another asian airline. Don't doubt it. And btw...you have no idea what sort of leadership I have or have not provided. In my now 30 years plus in the company, I've done my share of lifting...and my share of screwing up as well ;-),

How are you qualified to judge industry standards when you've spent 30 years at one airline?

To say that the average CX pilot is superior to the average pilot in BA, Qatar, Iberia, etc etc is extraordinary delusional arrogance.

[Farman Biplane]

Meanwhile, anyone care to comment on why management wants us to take SLS etc when there is a clear option of redundancy via reverse seniority in ALL of the pilot COS?

[shortly2]

Turpitude, depraved or wicked behavior. Jeepers, t'management have given themselves substantial pay reductions voluntarily. They are trying like blazes to keep, if you don't mind the expression, the family together. So, I see no turpitude there at all, au cotraire. What do the Trolls like mmole and exorcist expect? Who can predict what will happen in the short, let alone long term. I have been in CX through several bad times and this is the worst by a country mile. I am proud of what is happening here. My mates around the globe are being treated far more shabbily. CX want more from me, I'll give it and hope to help all employees in the company in the process.

[BuzzBox]

Meanwhile, anyone care to comment on why management wants us to take SLS etc when there is a clear option of redundancy via reverse seniority in ALL of the pilot COS?

I suspect because they're not yet ready to exercise that option but still need to preserve cash where possible. They might well press the button on redundancies at some point, but the 'investment' by the HK Govt has given them a bit of extra time to gauge any economic recovery over the next six months and to work out a plan that keeps as many staff as possible for future growth. To my way of thinking that's a much better strategy than immediately slashing staff numbers, as some airlines are doing.

[drfaust]

Meanwhile, anyone care to comment on why management wants us to take SLS etc when there is a clear option of redundancy via reverse seniority in ALL of the pilot COS?

Are you keen for a lot of your colleagues to get fired or something? Would that make you happy and feel special? We should be happy that SLS is the only thing asked of us at this stage.

And don’t worry, if redundancies have to be made they will make them, but can you really blame them for trying to hold on to their staff? After a 5 billion USD bailout?

Go ahead, don’t take SLS because you are entitled to get your salary. It’s fine, it’s voluntary after all. It’s a bit embarrassing if people with a 20K salary in this company can take SLS and you can’t, but it’s your decision. :yuk:

[Hugo Peroni the V]

Let’s just ignore the terms in our contracts DrF. LIFO. You’re sounding like a fresh new TC.

[drfaust]

When did I advocate for anything outside our contracts? It’s a voluntary scheme. If you don’t want to take it, don’t take it. I don’t know if you’ve noticed but no one has been made redundant yet. So why should we encourage them to do so?

In my humble view taking SLS is preferable to redundancies. But that’s me.

[YellowFever777]

For those advocating redundancies over SLS, I assume you have quit the union? Surely the purpose of a union is to protect the interests of ALL members as much as possible? Or is it sacrifice the junior members to protect the interests of the most senior and well paid at all costs?

[Hugo Peroni the V]

is that the same Union that one can support 100% only to see fellow members look after their own interests? Let’s get over this idea of unity and looking after one another. 2019 proved we can rely on nobody!

For those advocating redundancies over SLS, I assume you have quit the union? Surely the purpose of a union is to protect the interests of ALL members as much as possible? Or is it sacrifice the junior members to protect the interests of the most senior and well paid at all costs?

[YellowFever777]

is that the same Union that one can support 100% only to see fellow members look after their own interests? Let’s get over this idea of unity and looking after one another. 2019 proved we can rely on nobody!

Believe me I'm under no illusions about unity in this pilot group. However for some people to be advocating that junior pilots, real people with young families, be made redundant rather than taking a mere 3 weeks SLS over a 6 month period is particularly selfish and borderline sociopathic.

How ironic to be calling for redundancies on a thread accusing the company of moral turpitude.... couldn't make it up.

[mngmt mole]

I think the main concept in all of this is getting lost. CX likes to parrot the mantra of "family"...but it's just a cover to use any given crisis to lower the AVERAGE pay and benefits across the workforce. They do it incrementally, each time. If they laid off people, they would then be forced by the mechanics of that process to effectively support the real value of our profession. Instead, they use their current method to lower the pay and benefits across the board, inch by inch, dollar by dollar. The junior pilots are happy because they have nothing to lose (at this point in their careers). Eventually, they wake up after 15-20 years, two and a half kids, probably a divorce...school fees, mortgages, elderly and ill parents and wonder why they have not a penny to their names. Well, it's because they started of with the prevailing logic that contracts don't matter.... CX will take SLS2 out of our pockets (well..not all of our pockets I must say) and THEN they will hit us with the REAL cuts. Naivety like i've never seen before....

[Farman Biplane]

Spot on, MM.

YF777, we ALL signed a contract with the company agreeing to the LIFO seniority concept. We ALL spent time at the bottom of the list with family/personal commitments etc.
Unfortunately exceptional circumstances, for which that LIFO clause was actually designed, have presented themselves.
What other clauses of the contract do you want the company to ignore?

[mngmt mole]

I should add one more salient point to the debate: CX does not need all the pilots it has. It will be several years before the current number will make any sense. Even then, when they establish 2 SO flights throughout, increase the yearly hours requirement and a myriad of other productivity gains they are working on, it will likely be the end of the next decade before the current number makes sense again. And that is ignoring the growing political winds blowing against the future of CX. Hong Kong is probably never going to be the same again, and that will remove one of the key factors that contributed to the past growth of CX. Times have changed dramatically. CX is cynically trying to get everyone to agree to "cuts", only to then probably cut jobs anyway. Regardless, the contract must be adhered to. I realise that doing so would affect the bottom ranks, but ultimately the lifetime value of a career in this airline will only be preserved IF such actions are followed.

[viking avenger]

There was a time when everyone was at the bottom. maybe at the bottom when the Asian Financial crisis struck in 1997, or just above the bottom after 9/11, perhaps barely above the Bottom post 49ers when SARS hit in 2003.

I've had opportunity to leave, I had seniority which influenced my decisions. I knew the rules of the game and everyone who plays knows too. It is best to keep the rules of Seniority based redundancy in the contract. Last in first out. Sometimes those rules hinder our opportunities and prevent us from leaving for the companies benefit, and other times it protects those who stayed on. Wanting to change the rules because you don't like them is shortsighted at best.

[drfaust]

I genuinely don’t understand what you guys are talking about. There -are- no redundancies. If they come, they will come and we will deal with it then. I suspect the company will respect contracts, as they have always done, or buy people out.

For now, however, there is only SLS which you can choose to take or choose not to take. It’s a company wide scheme. I know this may be hard to imagine, but this is not only about you or your “family” and their “anxiety”. Tell them to suck it up, they’ll get over it trust me.

Let your good sense guide you on what to do. I know that some of you might prefer to see the company hacked in half knowing you will get to stay. I am happy that most guys however would prefer to see as many jobs saved as possible, and not just in the flight deck.

[Progress Wanchai]

Well said drfaust.

Although hypothetical discussions never hurt anyone. So my 2 cents;

Yes, we all signed a contract knowing what it contains. It contains the clause 35.3 as well as 32.3. Management used it in 2001 and have routinely used it ever since. I suspect they’ll use it again over the next few months. The financial payout for dismissal under 32.3 or 35.3 is fairly similar, particularly for expat crew. What 35.3 gives the company is the flexibility to pick and choose fleets and ranks that have excessive numbers without the need for training.

Yes, we could spend years fighting such a decision through the courts, but for what gain?
Senior crew holding their COS up like Trump with his bible outside St John’s Episcopal Church thinking that’ll save them might want to have a read of all of its contents. They might want to do some research into how management have previously used its contents and continue to use it right up to recent events.

So at this stage SLS is a shared burden for those that can afford it and are selfless enough to do so. Or we can all put our names into the 35.3 lottery hat.

Just my 2 cents.

[YellowFever777]

Spot on, MM.

YF777, we ALL signed a contract with the company agreeing to the LIFO seniority concept. We ALL spent time at the bottom of the list with family/personal commitments etc.
Unfortunately exceptional circumstances, for which that LIFO clause was actually designed, have presented themselves.
What other clauses of the contract do you want the company to ignore?

Well they havent presented themselves, the company is not (yet) seeking redundancies in case you missed it. For pilots to lead the charge in seeking redundancies is nauseating. And a note of caution, if you think that the company won't seek to implement some force majeure out of seniority redundancies then you're more optimistic than I am, good luck with that.

[AllWobbly]

Well they havent presented themselves, the company is not (yet) seeking redundancies in case you missed it. For pilots to lead the charge in seeking redundancies is nauseating. And a note of caution, if you think that the company won't seek to implement some force majeure out of seniority redundancies then you're more optimistic than I am, good luck with that.

it is interesting that in general conversation a “dog eat dog “ mentality is developing. This coupled with a sense of entitlement that is at odds with the layoffs worldwide saddens me. I have been in the “industry” longer than most and of course seniority has been a major factor in my personal wellbeing. Now frankly I’m glad to be nearing the end of my flying career as I can see what’s left of it is descending into a potentially unhappy and divided work force. There is no panacea, save jobs alienate the “top” guys, stick to seniority and fire the poor sods at the “bottom”.
It’s not even the dilemma itself that I find worrisome ( that’s aviation for you). It’s the fact that people are voicing such opinions publicly and quite forcefully in front of junior crew members. I might add I have been on the receiving end “you’ve had your time they should get rid of the old/deadwood”.
Have some empathy is all I would ask/suggest.
Please don’t take offense as I’m not directing this at any of the above posts. More of the ramblings of an old buffer on human nature.

[YellowFever777]

it is interesting that in general conversation a “dog eat dog “ mentality is developing. This coupled with a sense of entitlement that is at odds with the layoffs worldwide saddens me. I have been in the “industry” longer than most and of course seniority has been a major factor in my personal wellbeing. Now frankly I’m glad to be nearing the end of my flying career as I can see what’s left of it is descending into a potentially unhappy and divided work force. There is no panacea, save jobs alienate the “top” guys, stick to seniority and fire the poor sods at the “bottom”.
It’s not even the dilemma itself that I find worrisome ( that’s aviation for you). It’s the fact that people are voicing such opinions publicly and quite forcefully in front of junior crew members. I might add I have been on the receiving end “you’ve had your time they should get rid of the old/deadwood”.
Have some empathy is all I would ask/suggest.
Please don’t take offense as I’m not directing this at any of the above posts. More of the ramblings of an old buffer on human nature.

I agree with you. I'm trying to be pragmatic and empathetic. SLS is the most equitable sacrifice and relatively very mild when you look at the bloodbaths that are unfolding in other airlines. If and when the company comes looking for redundancies it will be a sad day indeed.

[Slasher1]

I agree with you. I'm trying to be pragmatic and empathetic. SLS is the most equitable sacrifice and relatively very mild when you look at the bloodbaths that are unfolding in other airlines. If and when the company comes looking for redundancies it will be a sad day indeed.
YGBSM.

New joiners are hired for over a decade on a series of declining contracts. These (knowingly) undermine existing contracts yet the new joiners don’t care. The company plays this very well. Fair enough. The common element in the contract is seniority and the rules are clearly delineated. Seniority has great value and effectively anchors people in the job preventing easy transfer and market forces to operate to some extent (being a barrier to entry and exit). Keeping many with higher skills and qualifications from going elsewhere with these because to do so would dump the seniority and have them start all over at the bottom.

"Unprecedented times ?!?" -- yeah-- Bull****e. . While perhaps the Wuhan Flu itself was unpredictable and unexpected, it's completely foreseeable that SOMETHING would happen over the life of the contract (which is why you have a contract with layoff and recall provisions to begin with). Historically airlines have faced numerous boom and bust cycles by SOME kind of event. While the exact type of event might be wholly unknown its obvious to anyone in the industry that it will happen (and might even happen a couple or few times over a career). Which is why a contract and agreement towards what to do when it does happen exists in the first place.

Now a significant event happens and the snowflakes want to change the contract by voiding the clearly defined lay-off and recall procedures contained within it. They don’t want the rules they knowingly agreed to apply to them anymore (and neither does the company in that they are the cheap labor and the first to go under the agreed contract). It’s a form of communism — make up some scam downline to ‘share the pain’ and void the contract endorsing the behavior of those who deliberately undermined it over the years to begin with. In other words enabling bad behavior. What one agreed and committed to doesn’t matter anymore.

How can anyone think this is in any way the right thing to do ?

Now, to be fair contracts are not necessarily static and perhaps given the objectives of company and person at some point downline both parties might find a mutually agreed better way to do things. That's fine too; several US carriers have done so by incentivizing early out (voluntary) packages or (completely) voluntary leave packages. Without propaganda or coercion. Where the value of seniority and the layoff/recall provisions in the original contract are preserved (not deliberately circumvented).

[Piet Lood]

Now frankly I’m glad to be nearing the end of my flying career as I can see what’s left of it is descending into a potentially unhappy and divided work force.

I agree, but may I ask: have you put your 2 cents in the hat to BETTER the conditions of service?
-Have you called out your chief pilot for putting his signature under letters directly and indirectly undermining (y)our conditions of service?
-Have you called out or refused your social availability to colleagues who directly and indirectly undermined (y)our conditions of service? (i.e. banbreakers, GD workers, volunteers of all shapes and sizes)
-Have you educated your younger peers about the consequences of their actions?
-Have you complied with your contract 100% (i.e. not 101%) once it became clear that (y)our conditions of service were under continued attack?
-Have you called out and refused to socially interact with ANY manager in the fleet office for attacking and directly and indirectly undermining (y)our conditions of service?

My 2 cents: these despicable human beings should be reaping the consequences of their choice to actively work against the pilot community while at the same time trying to be a part of it.
Their excuses range from “If you can’t beat them, join them”, to “The only way to make a difference is from within”, but in my humble opinion they sold their soul and should reap ALL the benefits.
€$%k them!

[Asturias56]

" It’s a form of communism —"

let's see - which country are CX based in................... yes , its a communist state alright................ but TBH BA are doing the same in the UK

[YellowFever777]

YGBSM.

New joiners are hired for over a decade on a series of declining contracts. These (knowingly) undermine existing contracts yet the new joiners don’t care. The company plays this very well. Fair enough. The common element in the contract is seniority and the rules are clearly delineated. Seniority has great value and effectively anchors people in the job preventing easy transfer and market forces to operate to some extent (being a barrier to entry and exit). Keeping many with higher skills and qualifications from going elsewhere with these because to do so would dump the seniority and have them start all over at the bottom.

"Unprecedented times ?!?" -- yeah-- Bull****e. . While perhaps the Wuhan Flu itself was unpredictable and unexpected, it's completely foreseeable that SOMETHING would happen over the life of the contract (which is why you have a contract with layoff and recall provisions to begin with). Historically airlines have faced numerous boom and bust cycles by SOME kind of event. While the exact type of event might be wholly unknown its obvious to anyone in the industry that it will happen (and might even happen a couple or few times over a career). Which is why a contract and agreement towards what to do when it does happen exists in the first place.

Now a significant event happens and the snowflakes want to change the contract by voiding the clearly defined lay-off and recall procedures contained within it. They don’t want the rules they knowingly agreed to apply to them anymore (and neither does the company in that they are the cheap labor and the first to go under the agreed contract). It’s a form of communism — make up some scam downline to ‘share the pain’ and void the contract endorsing the behavior of those who deliberately undermined it over the years to begin with. In other words enabling bad behavior. What one agreed and committed to doesn’t matter anymore.

How can anyone think this is in any way the right thing to do ?

Now, to be fair contracts are not necessarily static and perhaps given the objectives of company and person at some point downline both parties might find a mutually agreed better way to do things. That's fine too; several US carriers have done so by incentivizing early out (voluntary) packages or (completely) voluntary leave packages. Without propaganda or coercion. Where the value of seniority and the layoff/recall provisions in the original contract are preserved (not deliberately circumvented).

The point is that the company is NOT seeking redundancies at this time. Extremely callous to want to see your colleagues be made redundant during this unprecedented time (yes, it is unprecedented, there has never been anything remotely close to this sustained level of destruction accross the entire industry). I suppose such callousness is made easier by dehumanising everyone junior to you with labels like 'snowflakes'.

[Slasher1]

The point is that the company is NOT seeking redundancies at this time. Extremely callous to want to see your colleagues be made redundant during this unprecedented time (yes, it is unprecedented, there has never been anything remotely close to this sustained level of destruction accross the entire industry). I suppose such callousness is made easier by dehumanising everyone junior to you with labels like 'snowflakes'.

Ya....I guess you can rationalize it any way you want. I don't see many folks dying of starvation so just don't see the drama queen factor of 'unprecedented' nor do I see it much differently than any other bust cycle which periodically routes the aviation industry. It's just that the aviation industry has had more of a boom in the recent years so when it busts the numbers are larger.

The company is not seeking redundancies so it can abrogate the provisions of the contract. To include seniority and required pay protection. It's a type of end-run to shirk the legitimate contractural responsibilities (which is why you have a contract in the first place).

FWIW I think it's pretty darn callous and selfish for people to join under ever decreasing sets of conditions deliberately undermining the contracts of those who are already working at the place, but what would I know.

Snowflakes sounds a great deal more human than scabs though. So I'll just stick with that. Folks that decide to sign up for something and then go out of their way to later circumvent the ramifications of their actions. And it's up to others to pay for the well defined consequences of them making the choices they knew about and made anyway (perhaps like in a seniority based system taking POS18 with the knowledge they'd be the first out the door if things went downhill). Or blame the lender for lending them money so easily for that yacht they later figure out they can't pay for.

[drfaust]

I hear a whole bunch of BS. This is the same as any other boom bust cycle? When you get off the LSD try to rethink what you’re saying. Also, what did YOU do to prevent the company introducing B scale, C scale and COS18? Did you unite in a union? Did you strike? What did you do in order to help out colleagues to NOT undermine your contract? I can only assume you are on A scale with that rhetoric. Anything less than that makes you an enormous hypocrite.

Let me guess what you did about it though; nothing at all. The likes of Lufthansa, KLM and others have managed (so far in their history) to not get divided and to protect their work place. Here in Hong Kong, solidarity is a myth only to be read about in sagas. It is pathetic.

All of this, disregarding the fact that you keep circumnavigating the issue. So let me repeat it for you again, I understand the brain does slow with age; There. Are. No. Redundancies. No one is breaking your contract.

If you wish to take SLS you are free to do so, if you don’t you are free not to. But I know people like you, you derive your entire self worth from your silly position at work and some number on a seniority list. You believe the more people out of work and destitute, the higher your social status becomes. You are free to believe that, but I have some news for you. The vast majority of people here are normal and not borderline sociopaths, and the vast majority will take up SLS again for the greater good.

You know, the greater good? That idea and concept that does not solely revolve around you, your contract or indeed only your pilot colleagues? Nah, didn’t think so. Sadly, no wars are won with people like you.

[volare_737]

Drfaust - well said - I totally agree with you !!!!

[fly1981]

I hear a whole bunch of BS. This is the same as any other boom bust cycle? When you get off the LSD try to rethink what you’re saying. Also, what did YOU do to prevent the company introducing B scale, C scale and COS18? Did you unite in a union? Did you strike? What did you do in order to help out colleagues to NOT undermine your contract? I can only assume you are on A scale with that rhetoric. Anything less than that makes you an enormous hypocrite.

Let me guess what you did about it though; nothing at all. The likes of Lufthansa, KLM and others have managed (so far in their history) to not get divided and to protect their work place. Here in Hong Kong, solidarity is a myth only to be read about in sagas. It is pathetic.

All of this, disregarding the fact that you keep circumnavigating the issue. So let me repeat it for you again, I understand the brain does slow with age; There. Are. No. Redundancies. No one is breaking your contract.

If you wish to take SLS you are free to do so, if you don’t you are free not to. But I know people like you, you derive your entire self worth from your silly position at work and some number on a seniority list. You believe the more people out of work and destitute, the higher your social status becomes. You are free to believe that, but I have some news for you. The vast majority of people here are normal and not borderline sociopaths, and the vast majority will take up SLS again for the greater good.

You know, the greater good? That idea and concept that does not solely revolve around you, your contract or indeed only your pilot colleagues? Nah, didn’t think so. Sadly, no wars are won with people like you.

couldnt agree with you more...👏👏👏👏

[Slasher1]

Pretty easy to see how the place has gotten to where it is.

I think you’ll find ‘the greater good’ exists in actually following an agreed contract and not looking for fear based excuses to rationalize undermining it. Which have resulted in the continued decline of conditions over the years. Where people rationalize to themselves they’re doing the right thing when in reality they are selling out their coworkers (and even their own personal) future.

[doolay]

Anyone notice in the management shuffle we have a new GMA? Discuss.

[MENELAUS]

Anyone notice in the management shuffle we have a new GMA? Discuss.

Not a whole lot to discuss really. The present incumbent has done his 3 years, which is the average in post. Desig has background in crew management ( albeit cabin crew I think ).

[drfaust]

Pretty easy to see how the place has gotten to where it is.

I think you’ll find ‘the greater good’ exists in actually following an agreed contract and not looking for fear based excuses to rationalize undermining it. Which have resulted in the continued decline of conditions over the years. Where people rationalize to themselves they’re doing the right thing when in reality they are selling out their coworkers (and even their own personal) future.

Again. You are turning this into a “A scale vs B scale vs C scale vs COS18” discussion when it’s not. I understand you are worried given the current circumstances. If I was you, I would be worried too. That being said, absolutely no one is advocating for the breaking of contracts just as much as no one is advocating for colleagues to get made redundant. Apart from you maybe. You are talking nonsense and I have taken it upon myself to keep you honest. You’re welcome.

And by all means, don’t take SLS! A company wide scheme that even the people on the lowest salary levels are taking, well done. 👏

Please do tell those pesky 20K a month labourers of your contractual entitlements and how you can’t afford a 10% cut for a few months. Pathetic.

[YellowFever777]

Pretty easy to see how the place has gotten to where it is.

I think you’ll find ‘the greater good’ exists in actually following an agreed contract and not looking for fear based excuses to rationalize undermining it. Which have resulted in the continued decline of conditions over the years. Where people rationalize to themselves they’re doing the right thing when in reality they are selling out their coworkers (and even their own personal) future.

So are you A scale or just a massive hypocrite?

[ACMS]

Quite simple.

LAST IN, FIRST OUT.

End of story.

[MPPCAG]

But it might not be as simple as that...have a look what Virgin have done in the UK.

[Fly747]

But it might not be as simple as that...have a look what Virgin have done in the UK.

It won’t be that simple. Force majeure and all that. We’ll know soon.

[AllWobbly]

It won’t be that simple. Force majeure and all that. We’ll know soon.

Yup
Virgin mate very senior 744 Captain. Sorry here’s 3 months redundancy plus a week for every years service all capped at 15 weeks.
They also were last in first out.

[cxorcist]

Quite simple.

LAST IN, FIRST OUT.

End of story.

Amen and amen!

All this hand wringing makes no sense. We (CX) are at least 1000 pilots too many atm. Why the bottom 1/3 of the list has been employed for the last 6 months is a mystery to me. They aren’t needed or, in most cases, actual pilots with relevant experience. Retrain off the 777 fleet if necessary.

All the talk about furloughs from bases and force majeure are nonsense. Seniority is how the industry works, even at CX. This isn’t an Asian contract job contrary to some opinions. If CX wants to make it a contract job by force, get ready for lawsuits all over the world and be prepared to have very few (decent) Western expat pilots stay or ever join again.

The low-time brats living in 150m2 of Tung Chung are licking their chops just waiting for the demise of the expat so they can get promoted, as if CX won’t come for them next. It’s so sad and pathetic, and not that much different from the protesters looting and destroying big cities around the world. They want (feel entitled) to something that isn’t theirs. Grow up babies! Get out of your mama’s basement and put in the hard yards like the rest of us did. Handouts are not the answer.

[Flying Clog]

150 square metres! Dream on!

In Tung Chung that would be about 15-20 mil hkd (or 1.5 million pounds - 2 million euros). Or 5000 euros per month rent. I think you're talking of square feet monsieur?

Other than that, totally agree with cxorcist.

[cxorcist]

150 square metres! Dream on!

Other than that, totally agree with cxorcist.
Correct, I should have written 50m2.

[MPPCAG]

Amen and amen!

All this hand wringing makes no sense. We (CX) are at least 1000 pilots too many atm. Why the bottom 1/3 of the list has been employed for the last 6 months is a mystery to me. They aren’t needed or, in most cases, actual pilots with relevant experience. Retrain off the 777 fleet if necessary.

All the talk about furloughs from bases and force majeure are nonsense. Seniority is how the industry works, even at CX. This isn’t an Asian contract job contrary to some opinions. If CX wants to make it a contract job by force, get ready for lawsuits all over the world and be prepared to have very few (decent) Western expat pilots stay or ever join again.

The low-time brats living in 150m2 of Tung Chung are licking their chops just waiting for the demise of the expat so they can get promoted, as if CX won’t come for them next. It’s so sad and pathetic, and not that much different from the protesters looting and destroying big cities around the world. They want (feel entitled) to something that isn’t theirs. Grow up babies! Get out of your mama’s basement and put in the hard yards like the rest of us did. Handouts are not the answer.

I'm not wringing my hands Cxorcist. Far from it. I'm a B scale Captain and I can read what's in the contract as well as the next pilot. My point was things might not turn out as you expect or would like them to. Nobody knows.

Virgin Atlantic made pilots redundant on Performance / Disciplinary and then Fleet/Rank in that order. The contract was LIFO and was ignored. The reason Virgin gave was that they didn't have the funds to retrain pilots on to another type yet you suggest this is what CX should be doing at a time they are apparently losing 2.5 to 3 billion HKD a month. So this isn't nonsense, it's what's happening in another airline i.e. 'in the industry' as you put it.

The point I was making was that maybe CX will go down a similar path, that's all. As for lawsuits all over the world, well, that really is nonsense.

[fly1981]

Quite simple.

LAST IN, FIRST OUT.

End of story.

lifo will NEVER happen. Pilots that joined the company on COS18 are the future, unless of course you are willing to sign over to cos 18, in which case it could work. Everyone signs over to a common COS, THERE AFTER lifo could apply. Very few airlines in the world are adhering to contractual obligations.

[Slasher1]

lifo will NEVER happen. Pilots that joined the company on COS18 are the future, unless of course you are willing to sign over to cos 18, in which case it could work. Everyone signs over to a common COS, THERE AFTER lifo could apply. Very few airlines in the world are adhering to contractual obligations.

That is false; at least in the case of US carriers.

Who have honored theirs and offered attractive voluntary options; completely honoring their CBA. Including some very attractive early out options such that they can set their manning levels where desired and still comply with their CBA.

A CBA breach in terms of not following the terms delineated in the layoff and recall provisions would certainly be enforceable in this jurisdiction (either arbitration, court, or both) as well as many others. It is not a gray area.

[mngmt mole]

LIFO is going to have to be observed. I would be more concerned in HOW they manage to accommodate that. I suspect that there will be shenanigans regarding the bases. They will also probably offer an early retirement option, but nothing very attractive...but just attractive enough to convince those that have had enough. We'll all see soon enough.

[fly1981]

That is false; at least in the case of US carriers.

Who have honored theirs and offered attractive voluntary options; completely honoring their CBA. Including some very attractive early out options such that they can set their manning levels where desired and still comply with their CBA.

A CBA breach in terms of not following the terms delineated in the layoff and recall provisions would certainly be enforceable in this jurisdiction (either arbitration, court, or both) as well as many others. It is not a gray area.

the US carriers are not ‘ expat orientated’ airlines, you can not compare them to cathay. Emirates, qatar( shortly...) Korean, asiana...even BA are going about it how ever they deem fit. Who knows how this is going to play out. I would be cautious basing your future plans on you position in the seniority order. Fact of the matter, they going to be looking at saving money, cos18 pilots at the bottom of the seniority list cost a fraction of what pilots half way up the list cost, and they do the same job.

[bm330]

.......cos18 pilots at the bottom of the seniority list cost a fraction of what pilots half way up the list cost, and they do the same job.

Admittedly, they do in fact make significantly less than the top half of the seniority list. However, merely wearing the same uniform does not mean they can do the same job. Were Cathay to flush the experience out of the Airline by closing bases - filled with senior Captains and Relief FOs or say goodbye to the largely idle HK 777 crews and hand the reigns over to abinitio and flying club pilots that fill all those COS18 positions, they would make the Company Accountants happy.........right up until the worldwide headlines and scrutiny that comes with the inevitable public mistake.

[fly1981]

However, merely wearing the same uniform does not mean they can do the same job. Were Cathay to flush the experience out of the Airline by closing bases - filled with senior Captains and Relief FOs or say goodbye to the largely idle HK 777 crews and hand the reigns over to abinitio and flying club pilots that fill all those COS18 positions, they would make the Company Accountants happy.........

I think your assessment of the cos18 pilot pool is incorrect. Sure, the SO’s employed could be considered ‘abinitio flying club’ pilots, the defo’s( and there are many of them) on the other hand have very relative experience, fill the gap quit nicely. The likes of EK/QR have been putting 35 year olds in the left seat of 380’s for years, with 5 years company experience, before that many were regional jet pilots, the only reason time to command at cx is what it is, is because historically the contracts have been so good, people don’t leave, it has absolutely nothing to do with experience required to do the job. once in the left seat, captains are ‘coining’ it, and guys in the right seat are happy to give up command at lower paying airlines, and wait their turn, knowing full well that their salary in the right seat is equatable to many smaller airlines captain salary’s. The age old argument of ‘grey beard’ experience being required to ‘do the job’ is obsolete, it is not, that fact has been proven by airlines all over the world. Your number in the seniority order this current day in age, especially as an expat, means nothing. Same goes for your experience, as long as it is relative, the job will get done.

I find the number of users advocating redundancy on this thread disgusting, I am willing to bet that many of those guilty are relying on their number in seniority to comfort themselves at night, well, you just keep telling yourselves that, Heaven forbid, if it does come
To redundancy I hope you are taught a lesson. Have some empathy .

[hyg]

I think your assessment of the cos18 pilot pool is incorrect. Sure, the SO’s employed could be considered ‘abinitio flying club’ pilots, the defo’s( and there are many of them) on the other hand have very relative experience, fill the gap quit nicely. The likes of EK/QR have been putting 35 year olds in the left seat of 380’s for years, with 5 years company experience, before that many were regional jet pilots, the only reason time to command at cx is what it is, is because historically the contracts have been so good, people don’t leave, it has absolutely nothing to do with experience required to do the job. once in the left seat, captains are ‘coining’ it, and guys in the right seat are happy to give up command at lower paying airlines, and wait their turn, knowing full well that their salary in the right seat is equatable to many smaller airlines captain salary’s. The age old argument of ‘grey beard’ experience being required to ‘do the job’ is obsolete, it is not, that fact has been proven by airlines all over the world. Your number in the seniority order this current day in age, especially as an expat, means nothing. Same goes for your experience, as long as it is relative, the job will get done.

I find the number of users advocating redundancy on this thread disgusting, I am willing to bet that many of those guilty are relying on their number in seniority to comfort themselves at night, well, you just keep telling yourselves that, Heaven forbid, if it does come
To redundancy I hope you are taught a lesson. Have some emphatic.

I do believe there could be the possibility of redundancy as well but like myself, many other people I spoke to believe it won't be LIFO... people I spoke to and myself are all relatively safe in the case of LIFO, but realistically, why would the company leave the expensive options in while getting rid of the cheaper option, it simply doesn't make commercial sense. If you have an alternate when you go flying, I believe you should have one for your life too, putting all hopes into the fact that the company is going to observe the LIFO clause in the contract is I believe pure wishful thinking in this current climate.

Besides, if after things like SARS, GFC, people still can't see there's an even slight chance that their job/income could be in peril when **** happens and put away some decent amount of saving or preparing for an alternative career when need to, that's just not good planning.

[Progress Wanchai]

If Cx does unfortunately go down the redundancy path then I’d imagine management will simply choose who stays and who goes. Dismissal notices will be given in accordance with 35.3. Payment will be the higher of 35.3 or 32.3 (not a lot of difference anyway).

What are the options for those affected?
The only real option is a legal challenge. But for what recourse? After years of fighting through the courts they may win an unfair dismissal case but the payment already made exceeds the payment they’d receive in accordance with the EO. So it’d simply be a very expensive hollow victory.

[Zapp_Brannigan]

the US carriers are not ‘ expat orientated’ airlines, you can not compare them to cathay. Emirates, qatar( shortly...) Korean, asiana...even BA are going about it how ever they deem fit. Who knows how this is going to play out. I would be cautious basing your future plans on you position in the seniority order. Fact of the matter, they going to be looking at saving money, cos18 pilots at the bottom of the seniority list cost a fraction of what pilots half way up the list cost, and they do the same job.

To summarize, you're 39, DEFO and on Cos18 and you'd like the senior pilots to take the fall so you can remain employed, because you were happy to prostitute yourself to get the job and you're in fact doing the same job as a 12 years FO or maybe even a senior Captain, but from the other seat?

Wishful thinking. Maybe you should have thought before you quit your previous job to go to the bottom of a seniority list?
Maybe you should be the one with a plan B?

[ACMS]

To summarize, you're 39, DEFO and on Cos18 and you'd like the senior pilots to take the fall so you can remain employed, because you were happy to prostitute yourself to get the job and you're in fact doing the same job as a 12 years FO or maybe even a senior Captain, but from the other seat?

Wishful thinking. Maybe you should have thought before you quit your previous job to go to the bottom of a seniority list?
Maybe you should be the one with a plan B?

+1................

[ACMS]

I do believe there could be the possibility of redundancy as well but like myself, many other people I spoke to believe it won't be LIFO... people I spoke to and myself are all relatively safe in the case of LIFO, but realistically, why would the company leave the expensive options in while getting rid of the cheaper option, it simply doesn't make commercial sense. If you have an alternate when you go flying, I believe you should have one for your life too, putting all hopes into the fact that the company is going to observe the LIFO clause in the contract is I believe pure wishful thinking in this current climate.

Besides, if after things like SARS, GFC, people still can't see there's an even slight chance that their job/income could be in peril when **** happens and put away some decent amount of saving or preparing for an alternative career when need to, that's just not good planning.


so says you......simple in theory.

Oh and just for your reference, after you consider the HK COS18 SCN total pay package ( not counting education allowances and the possibility of the 13th month which will return eventually ) I’m still paid less as a SCN on my Oz base at the end of the year.

So Cx could chose to disregard my legally enforceable contract ( which they only just happily signed onto in the EBA ) or they could make me redundant, cost them 6 months payout and lose an experienced commander BUT save no salary costs each year......why would they bother........

riddle me that Batman....

[fly1981]

To summarize, you're 39, DEFO and on Cos18 and you'd like the senior pilots to take the fall so you can remain employed, because you were happy to prostitute yourself to get the job and you're in fact doing the same job as a 12 years FO or maybe even a senior Captain, but from the other seat?

Wishful thinking. Maybe you should have thought before you quit your previous job to go to the bottom of a seniority list?
Maybe you should be the one with a plan B?

i don’t work for cx unfortunately, and I’m not at the bottom of the seniority list. the only part you got right was 39...👍having been through redundancy more than once in my career, i always have a plan B. I understand redundancy and what it does to people’s lives, especially the ones with kids, the fact that redundancy is not on the cards at this stage, but you still have senior pilots advocating it Is shocking... well, only time will tell, let’s see how this plays out, maybe sometime in the future you will be forced off that high horse.

[ACMS]

i don’t work for cx unfortunately, and I’m not at the bottom of the seniority list. the only part you got right was 39...👍having been through redundancy more than once in my career, i always have a plan B. I understand redundancy and what it does to people’s lives, especially the ones with kids, the fact that redundancy is not on the cards at this stage, but you still have senior pilots advocating it Is shocking... well, only time will tell, let’s see how this plays out, maybe sometime in the future you will be forced off that high horse.


I for one have lost my job before as well and had to rebuild from scratch. I’m not getting just within 10 years of the finish line with life left in me yet only to be pushed out because I’m thought to be “too senior”............heck no.

[doolay]

the fact that redundancy is not on the cards at this stage, but you still have senior pilots advocating it Is shocking.

No one is 'advocating' Redundancy. What is being said is;
We don't want redundancy to happen to anyone, however, if it does come to that in the future, then it has got to be LIFO.

[MENELAUS]

No one is 'advocating' Redundancy. What is being said is;
We don't want redundancy to happen to anyone, however, if it does come to that in the future, then it has got to be LIFO.

Good luck with that. Meritocracy is coming. Or a demeritocracy rather.

[YellowFever777]

No one is 'advocating' Redundancy. What is being said is;
We don't want redundancy to happen to anyone, however, if it does come to that in the future, then it has got to be LIFO.

Read back through the thread, some people are advocating redundancies now over SLS. Like turkey's voting Christmas.... turkey's with their heads buried in the sand thinking the seniority list will save them.

[Slasher1]

I think your assessment of the cos18 pilot pool is incorrect. Sure, the SO’s employed could be considered ‘abinitio flying club’ pilots, the defo’s( and there are many of them) on the other hand have very relative experience, fill the gap quit nicely. The likes of EK/QR have been putting 35 year olds in the left seat of 380’s for years, with 5 years company experience, before that many were regional jet pilots, the only reason time to command at cx is what it is, is because historically the contracts have been so good, people don’t leave, it has absolutely nothing to do with experience required to do the job. once in the left seat, captains are ‘coining’ it, and guys in the right seat are happy to give up command at lower paying airlines, and wait their turn, knowing full well that their salary in the right seat is equatable to many smaller airlines captain salary’s. The age old argument of ‘grey beard’ experience being required to ‘do the job’ is obsolete, it is not, that fact has been proven by airlines all over the world. Your number in the seniority order this current day in age, especially as an expat, means nothing. Same goes for your experience, as long as it is relative, the job will get done.

I find the number of users advocating redundancy on this thread disgusting, I am willing to bet that many of those guilty are relying on their number in seniority to comfort themselves at night, well, you just keep telling yourselves that, Heaven forbid, if it does come
To redundancy I hope you are taught a lesson. Have some empathy .

No, what is truly disgusting to me is that individuals would join under POS 18 (or 20 or whatever) knowingly undercutting other pilots established in the organization (but apparently feeling entitled enough not to care) and when things made a (predictable) turn south (which is pretty typical of any airline industry) then expect those same people they had previously undercut to take a pay cut to save their jobs (rather than follow the layoff/recall provisions clearly delineated in any of the contracts). Completely contrary to the contract they knowingly signed. And then somehow finding a way to rationalize their snowflake entitled mentality.

[Flex88]

Last Friday from SCMP:
"The airline said on Friday it would seek the government’s help in paying 27,000 staff by joining its wage subsidy scheme, which prevents it from making any redundancies."

Is it "moral" to request government assistance from HK taxpayers KNOWING FULL WELL, that certainly 4-5000 will be made redundant regardless ?? Or is it simply CX, as usual, sucking free taxpayer cash from any source it can, because it can. Like the freeloading relative every family seems to have ?

Myself, I find it disturbing on several levels...


p.s. Corona Virus (i.e. CCP Virus) hitting "GLOBAL RECORDS" as you read this !!!

[mngmt mole]

Flex. The reason that covid cases are at a "record"...is that they are completing more tests each day. Ergo, you end up with more identified cases. Not exactly rocket science.

[Flex88]

Flex. The reason that covid cases are at a "record"...is that they are completing more tests each day. Ergo, you end up with more identified cases. Not exactly rocket science.

Not being a rocket scientist, it must be all those darn newspapers I read that are reporting "mass graves" & China shutting down thousands of internal flights etc etc that got me off to a bad start :confused: Life is Wonderfull :O

#VirusDeniers

[Threethirty]

Notice the newspapers are saying new cases not new deaths, if you test enough people you’ll get an increased number of virus cases, doesn’t mean a second wave. The test for Covid is complete pseudo science at best, false positives galore amongst asymptomatic individuals and it’s not even specific against Covid, the specificity of the test does not preclude different antigens registering a positive result.

[SloppyJoe]

Politicians destroying the economy. Doing what they deem will get them the most votes. There are people who work for CX who think it is great that the AUS government is closing its borders till 2021. I mention working for CX as you would have thought that people doing this job would be above average intelligence. 4 times as many people died of flu last year than have from coronavirus in Australia. Hong Kong has had 1130 cases and 5 deaths. 0.5% death rate. Hong Kong medical care is not superior so why has the UK got over a 10% death rate? This is media and politicians.

[mngmt mole]

Hit the nail on the head Sloppy. The greatest mass hysteria (and promoted by cynical politicians) event of our lifetime. Eventually the numbers will be fully established, and the authoritarians who have crawled to the surface and destroyed the livelihoods of millions will be called to account.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Sloppy Joe, politicians are supposed to do what gets them the most votes. This concept is called democracy.

Additionally, reason means judging a situation independent from your own situation. Your claim that an affected pilot with "above average intelligence" can't support border closures makes therefore no sense.

It also doesn't make sense to quote the low infection rates in Hong Hong and elsewhere as argument against border closures, these low rates are of course the product of border closures.

The comparison with the flue also do not make sense. Piles of dead bodies in cooler vans because the morgues were already full, as it happened in New York and elsewhere, should be a small hint. It is not the flue, and to claim it is even less deadlier than the flue is absurd.

There is of course no glory in prevention, but the simplicity of the arguments in here are really astonishing.

Have a quick glance at the situation and death rates in Brazil, that is what you get without action. I am very glad Hong Kong and (eventually) the UK reacted differently.

Note then that the economy in Brazil is suffering even worse presently, without a lockdown. The belief people would have just carried on with their lives, their businesss trips and exotic holidays, all in the midst of a global pandemic with overflown hospitals is of course an illusion. Note then that in countries with the most strict lockdown the economy actually recovers quicker then in those with more relaxed rules.

Nobody of us has any medical training, any experience, any qualifications in fighting a pandemic, any knowledge in the field of virology whatsoever.

Nevertheless, not unlike the global warming discussion, a lot of people don't let this complete lack of expertise be in the way of declaring a solution. Note that this "solution" is almost always radical, easy and simple. Which makes sense, because without expertise that is of course all one can offer. The ignorance and complete disregard for reason and science effectively contained in this perspective is really quite astonishing.

So let's have a look from a bit of a distance.

On the one hand, thousands of experts, doctors, scientists from the best universities and institutions, among them nobel laureates and distinguished professors , thousands of virologists with decades of work and research experience,all recommend more or less the current strategy.

On the other hand, Prof cxorcist and Dr mngmt mole on pprune think it is all a hoax and borders should open up immediately because it's just the flue and a big conspiracy...

Nobody can presently say what the best strategy is with absolute certainty. It may well be other strategies would have worked better, but we simply can't say for sure at this point.I personally would not be surprised if in hindsight an actually even stricter lockdown wouldn't have been better, but it will be a question for historians to decide that. But if I have to decide now between a few disgruntled pilots and the global scientific community I think I might just go for the latter this one time.

[Slasher1]

Sloppy Joe, politicians are supposed to do what gets them the most votes. This concept is called democracy.

Additionally, reason means judging a situation independent from your own situation. Your claim that an affected pilot with "above average intelligence" can't support border closures makes therefore no sense.

It also doesn't make sense to quote the low infection rates in Hong Hong and elsewhere as argument against border closures, these low rates are of course the product of border closures.

The comparison with the flue also do not make sense. Piles of dead bodies in cooler vans because the morgues were already full, as it happened in New York and elsewhere, should be a small hint. It is not the flue, and to claim it is even less deadlier than the flue is absurd.

There is of course no glory in prevention, but the simplicity of the arguments in here are really astonishing.

Have a quick glance at the situation and death rates in Brazil, that is what you get without action. I am very glad Hong Kong and (eventually) the UK reacted differently.

Note then that the economy in Brazil is suffering even worse presently, without a lockdown. The belief people would have just carried on with their lives, their businesss trips and exotic holidays, all in the midst of a global pandemic with overflown hospitals is of course an illusion. Note then that in countries with the most strict lockdown the economy actually recovers quicker then in those with more relaxed rules.

Nobody of us has any medical training or expertise, any experience, any training in fighting a pandemic or any knowledge in virology whatsoever.

On the one hand, thousands of experts, doctors, scientists from the best universities, virologists with decades of work and research experience,all recommend more or less the current strategy.

On the other hand, Prof cxorcist and Dr mngmt mole on pprune think it is all a hoax and borders should open up immediately because it's just the flue and a big conspiracy...

Nobody can presently say what the best strategy is with absolute certainty. It may well be other strategies would have worked better, but we simply can't say for sure at this point.I personally would not be surprised if in hindsight an actually even stricter lockdown wouldn't have been better, but it will be a question for historians to decide that. But if I have to decide now between a few disgruntled pilots and the global scientific community I think I might just go for the latter this one time.

I think you can put the plandemic/scamdemic about on par in reality with the 1967 Hong Kong flu (for which none of the incoherent reactions of the modern world were attempted). Real contagious, benign to most, devastating to some. And used as a vehicle by just about everyone everywhere to push their agenda and exploit the fear and political opportunity (including perhaps an opportunity for the commies to the north to rid themselves of burdensome citizens perhaps not fully dead while providing little meaningful care to others).

What swung things was the reaction of the US. The moment protests and violent looting kicked in (politically advantageous to a certain sector of politicians) any mitigation strategies were quickly thrown out the window in favor of letting the protests and violence happen (both by statists and the propaganda media). Shuttering businesses, churches, gyms, bars, restaurants, hairdressers, requiring useless masks in public, etc. while rioting mobs of people gathered unencumbered who scoffed at any type of precaution--fully endorsed by the same politicians who were dictating the shuttering. In fact, the individual toward which the apparent police brutality occurred got to have 3 unrestricted huge funerals despite the draconian sweeping ban on funerals for the citizens of a lesser god over the last several months. So as usual the common folks who follow the rules got slammed and scammed while those in favor with the statists got to do whatever they wanted.

You can't have it both ways.

FWIW, the states which opened first fared no worse (and to some extent better) than the shutdown states. So like the Hong Kong flu it didn't really make much difference in terms of 'science' but did in terms of economic destruction.

[Sam Ting Wong]

Slasher, you just proved my point. The solutions you are offering are too simple and one dimensional with all respect.
Just one quick example.


FWIW, the states which opened first fared no worse (and to some extent better) than the shutdown states. So like the Hong Kong flu it didn't really make much difference in terms of 'science' but did in terms of economic destruction.

Let's for a moment assume your basic assumption was right and the states that opened earlier fared "better" ( which I also doubt, but for the sake of the argument).

It is obviously not feasible to compare states to each other by looking at just one variable ( time of opening). You are extremely underestimating the difficulty of the problem and the complexity of statistics.

Every state in the US has of course it's own characteristics, e.g. density, demographics, size, infection rates, public transport system, economic structure, geographical position, level of education, infrastructure etc etc.

Any statistically valid comparison need to be controlled for underlying variables. It is impossible to do such a comparison without specific expertise in a number of fields, e.g. economics, epidemiology etc. It makes no sense the way you put it.

I don't know much about the Hong Kong flu from 1967, or any other pandemic, but of course the virologist and epidemiologist have studied this and very other pandemic extensively. That is what they do, the very nature of their profession. Again, as a layman without any education or training in the field, none whatsoever, to boldly declare this is all " like 1967" is quite astonishing in my opinion.

But then you put science in brackets, which to me indicates we are not on the same page anyway. My suspicion is that in this case, as in many other areas of political disagreement, the differences have rather cultural/moral origins.

[drfaust]

To put it simply, it’s rather easy to make a moron out of yourself when you talk about things in which you are not a subject matter expert.

But that’s the sign of the times. Everyone seems to be stuck in their social media echo chamber participating in a psychological experiment no one consented to. Any debate and difference of opinion HAS to be had in the dumbest way possible. As long as we don’t agree on everything exactly, we are enemies!

Anyone that can not identify with my exact position must be gotten rid of. Snowflakes! All of them! Am I glad I’m not from, don’t live in and have nothing to do with the USA. That entire society seems to have lost its mind on both sides of the political spectrum.

Unfortunately it seems the disease is spreading.

[slowjet]

Mate of mine rapidly easing out of his local lockdown has, throughout, asked all he knows ; "Do you know of anyone who got the virus ?" Not one. "Do you know of anyone who got the virus and died OF the Virus, not "with" the virus ?" Not one . Where he lives, retirement Village, 4000 ex-pat retirees. All ok. Not ONE got the virus or knew anyone who did and/or did & died. He now knows of ONE who did test positive but has yet to establish whether that ONE case had "underlying health issues" .

Now that Governments know how easy it is to control & lock-up most compliant and herd mentallity beings who will readily spy on each-other and look about at fellow neighbours to ensure observance of banging tin pots against the wall in support of, aaaaaaah, can't believe I'm falling for it, the NHS !..............The second wave IS coming.......... But, this one is far more sinister.

[highflyer40]

Mate of mine rapidly easing out of his local lockdown has, throughout, asked all he knows ; "Do you know of anyone who got the virus ?" Not one. "Do you know of anyone who got the virus and died OF the Virus, not "with" the virus ?" Not one . Where he lives, retirement Village, 4000 ex-pat retirees. All ok. Not ONE got the virus or knew anyone who did and/or did & died. He now knows of ONE who did test positive but has yet to establish whether that ONE case had "underlying health issues" .

Now that Governments know how easy it is to control & lock-up most compliant and herd mentallity beings who will readily spy on each-other and look about at fellow neighbours to ensure observance of banging tin pots against the wall in support of, aaaaaaah, can't believe I'm falling for it, the NHS !..............The second wave IS coming.......... But, this one is far more sinister.

Have you already bought your tin foil hat?

[Farman Biplane]

Who is this Turpi dude anyway?

[cxorcist]

Wow at least most of you on this thread can go back to their jobs as a medical professionals if you all loose your jobs as pilots ha ha ha!

I think before we see any redundancies a lot will change. Maybe we stay on our current COS, housing is/will be a thing of the past (HKPA for everyone). Everyone will be on 50% pay cuts, RRO for everyone. Lots and Lots to do before chopping us. The AOA is working hard to try come up with lots of ways to save jobs.

SAVE jobs should be the most important thing!
The question is are you going to give up a big portion of your salary to save the jobs of the junior pilots? I must say I will try help my situation and that of all the pilots in CX!
It is time to come together. Downsize in life for a year or so. This is a terrible time for everyone and remember that all the actions we take in the near future will have consequences for everyone!
You don’t destroy the contract to save jobs. That is airline union 101. Need an example? Ask the US Air guys how that worked out for them... Many of them lost their jobs anyways, and the rest had to work under a vastly degraded contract that never improved until they merged with AA over two decades later. You keep the contract(s) in place, solid and respected. That way, we all have a job worth coming back to when the business returns.

I’m all for leaves without pay, part time work arrangements, early retirements, etc to give those at the bottom a better chance, but NO CONCESSIONS!!! Junior guys at ANY airline know they are vulnerable. That’s part of being junior. And don’t tell me about the Virgin pilots. We aren’t them, and they aren’t us. I’m far more interested in looking at airline unions that defend their contact and seniority lists.

[Slasher1]

Lol.....you gotta love the internet.

One of the few places that a person with little knowledge and no real study of history can proclaim blind trust in faceless entities who've been consistently wrong with their 'models' and then go forth to proclaim others 'morons.'

[mngmt mole]

Right on Slasher. Dr. Fauci: "masks good", "masks bad", "masks good". Liberal commentators: "Trump rallies bad....unsafe distancing", "BLM rallies good.....apparently that distancing is ok". Meanwhile, the total number of deaths of ALL causes in the main western economies (what's left of them) is trending almost the same as the same period last year...and the year before that...etc, etc. Buy into the hysteria if you wish, but history will almost certainly point to this as the mass hysteria event of the modern age (ably promoted by the liberal media and the elite power brokers).

[Progress Wanchai]

Lol.....you gotta love the internet.

One of the few places that a person with little knowledge and no real study of history can proclaim blind trust in faceless entities who've been consistently wrong with their 'models' and then go forth to proclaim others 'morons.'

Slasher, I actually like your attitude but you don’t help by contradicting yourself in the one sentence. It’s impossible for people to stay on their current contract and yet housing be gone.

Also the current redundancy clause would be more palatable to many, if not most, than 50% pay for an undefined period. Receive a payout including provident fund, return unemployed to a society structured to give a reasonable lifestyle for the unemployed (some would argue a superior lifestyle than being employed full time in Hong Kong, let alone on 50% pay) while being guaranteed a return to the airline once the business situation permits.

[Shot Nancy]

There has been a global population increase of 38000000 this year.
https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/
Perspective.

[mngmt mole]

So on that basis, the actual death rate per 100,000 worldwide has dropped this year...

[cxorcist]

At the risk of sounding callous, I wish we would just allow the virus to spread throughout society, because it’s not dangerous for most folks. Let’s keep the elderly and other vulnerables isolated. Then, we could all get the antibodies and get on with running the economy. In my mind, less people die this way than sending the global economy into a massive depression. But what do I know, I’m not a medical professional. Just a not quite million dollar moron.

[JMock]

At the risk of sounding callous, I wish we would just allow the virus to spread throughout society, because it’s not dangerous for most folks. Let’s keep the elderly and other vulnerables isolated. Then, we could all get the antibodies and get on with running the economy. In my mind, less people die this way than sending the global economy into a massive depression. But what do I know, I’m not a medical professional. Just a not quite million dollar moron.

Sweden tried that approach.

didn’t end well

just noticed Brazil’s horror stats this morning

[mngmt mole]

Sweden also didn't destroy their economy. The levels of depression/suicide/family breakdown/poverty are only just beginning the rest of the western world. Once history has had a chance to evaluate, i'm quite certain Sweden will look quite enlightened. (and before you or someone comes back with the inevitable rebuttal...ask yourselves this question: if another virus arrives next year...and the year after etc....are you suggesting the world shuts down every 4 months out of 12?. Thought not).

[Zapp_Brannigan]

Economy before lives. You guys must be Americans.
As long as it doesn't happen to you, you don't care.

More than 80% of the people infected have not fully recovered after 3 months! (they still show symptoms like shortness of breath, fatigue, muscle pain) according to a recent study.
It is a new virus, there are still a lot of unknowns.
You want to get sick to develop "immunity"? There's no evidence you will be immuned forever. Most patients fully recovered don't have antibodies after 1 month.
What if the virus mutates?
​​​​​​
The governments obviously took the right decision to lockdown, at the time, in order not to overfill the medical services.
The death rate was kept low BECAUSE the hospitals were running at or under full capacity.
The mortality displacement so far is 23% in the USA and 50% in the UK!
That's probably the real toll on lives. Not the official numbers issued by the governements.
​​​​​

​​​​​​
​​​

[cxorcist]

We cannot be looking only at death and illness from the Wuhan virus, but all factors. The economy has tentacles into every facet of life (including health and safety), and we need to at least attempt to measure those as well. I tend to agree that Sweden has “paid the piper” early without destroying the economy and will reap the benefits later on. I think looking at COVID numbers only is a very poor metric of success and failure.

[cxorcist]

Economy before lives. You guys must be Americans.
As long as it doesn't happen to you, you don't care.

The governments obviously took the right decision to lockdown, at the time, in order not to overfill the medical services.
The death rate was kept low BECAUSE the hospitals were running at or under full capacity.
The mortality displacement so far is 23% in the USA and 50% in the UK!
That's probably the real toll on lives. Not the official numbers issued by the governements.
​​​​​

​​​​​​
​​​
Wrt your first statement, how ridiculous! As if all Americans are the same. Clearly there are differing views in America right now, or have you not been watching the news.

Secondly, the economy is directly linked to lives, and health, and wealth. If you’re too stupid to recognize that, just stop reading.

Lastly, your comment about mortality displacement is relevant. That does matter, especially over time. What’s the mortality displacement over the next 1,3, and 5 years? Think the economy might have something to do with that? I certainly do.

Sadly, epidemiology is more utilitarian than rights fundamentalism, more triage than specialized care. In this case, I think most developed countries epidemiologists have overshot precisely because they don’t understand the economy. Maybe that can be changed going forward in the future.

[Flex88]

Flex. The reason that covid cases are at a "record"...is that they are completing more tests each day. Ergo, you end up with more identified cases. Not exactly rocket science.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awGihSjhYmg

[mngmt mole]

Flex...the number of cases is rising because they are doing far more testing. The death rate is decreasing, and is almost the same as a regular flu on a worldwide basis year on year. If you want to argue that fact...be my guest. HK has had 5 deaths....almost a statistical anomaly. They didn't need to collapse the economy and restrict peoples freedom over this. Again, what if another virus shows up in Sept....shut down another 4-5 months? Obviously wouldn't happen. That being a given fact, then why did we do so this time? History will be the judge, but it's quite obvious to many this is an event of mass hysteria driven mainly by a politically focused media that had one goal in mind. The numbers will eventually tell the truth.

[Flex88]

Flex...the number of cases is rising because they are doing far more testing. The death rate is decreasing, and is almost the same as a regular flu on a worldwide basis year on year. If you want to argue that fact...be my guest. HK has had 5 deaths....almost a statistical anomaly. They didn't need to collapse the economy and restrict peoples freedom over this. Again, what if another virus shows up in Sept....shut down another 4-5 months? Obviously wouldn't happen. That being a given fact, then why did we do so this time? History will be the judge, but it's quite obvious to many this is an event of mass hysteria driven mainly by a politically focused media that had one goal in mind. The numbers will eventually tell the truth.

I'm with you on - they never should have shut down the world.. That said, they did and it's all over but the crying.
If you watch the video, GLOBAL cases are on the rise. 1, due to testing however 2. due to those actually catching and being under doctors care.. If a case shows up next week at a hospital or doctors office it's not due to testing which is what they indicate and articulate in the video..

All that said, as cases continue to rise globally, and CX is a 100% global airline, I see much pain ahead.. Sad and unforgivable on many levels..

[drfaust]

Lol.....you gotta love the internet.

One of the few places that a person with little knowledge and no real study of history can proclaim blind trust in faceless entities who've been consistently wrong with their 'models' and then go forth to proclaim others 'morons.'

Excuse me, I thought I'd already explained to you why your positions are incomprehensible in this thread. I have not made a single statement about what should or in fact should not be done about COVID-19. Why I hear you ask? Because I don't know what the best way forward is. And I'm OK with that. I don't need to, or pretend to, be a subject matter expert on every single topic known to man. But, luckily Slasher1 is here. The saviour of good and common sense, maybe he can guide humanity through this exceptionally complex multi-variate problem and come up with a solution. That's because Slasher1 is a learned man, indeed. A student of history no less. We need more people like you, really. I would like to see you go to Italy and explain to them how the old COVID-19 is all a hoax. Maybe you can recommend to them to do less testing, that way they'll have fewer cases.

Let me tell you, in the real world we laugh about people like you. You can call me a snowflake all you like, I reserve the right to call you a moron.

[Progress Wanchai]

Some of the rhetoric is becoming a bit emotional. Governments haven’t “shut down the economy”, but they did put restrictions on certain industries, most of which have now been lifted. Unrestricted travel is still some way off though. That may mean certain adjustments will need to be made for most of us in the travel industry, but life will go on. It may be in a different house or a different school. It may mean we are the ones receiving social security instead of contributing towards its financing. But life goes on.

The fact is the world economy was in ICU leading into 2020. It was spluttering along despite record debt being financed by record low interest rates which simply lead to record high asset prices. A reset has been overdue since we failed to do so in 2008/09.
Ask yourself, was Shazza and Gazza from Wollongong taking a ski holiday in the middle of summer or a beach holiday in the middle of winter financed by their overinflated house price the new normal? Or was it a temporary blip that was never previously normal and won’t be again? Is burning 500 tons of fuel to get 100 tons of cherries from South America to China the new normal? Or was it pure gluttony and greed that should never be considered normal? Countries, industries and individuals will have to adjust. If it wasn’t COVID-19 it probably would have been something else. Globalization was an experiment that was already failing except for the asset holders. Hence the rise of leaders like Trump.

So we are now faced with two vulnerable groups of citizens. The elderly who are at risk of catching a potentially fatal disease and the mentally weak who are at risk from themselves. Helping one does not mean risking the other. But help doesn’t necessarily mean giving someone what they want, but what they need.

It’s times like this we actually discover our real selves and what’s important to us. We discover our real families. We discover our real friends. We discover what’s truly valuable and what isn’t. No one that matters cares about the house you live in, the uniform you wear, the car you drive, the school the kids go to, the club you belong to, the paycheck you earn or if you’re the beneficiary of a social welfare system.

Some senior pilots around here seem to enjoy referring to the younger generation as snowflakes. Yet when faced with losing their imaginary self esteem or illusionary place in society are the first to melt.

[1_of_600]

Mate of mine rapidly easing out of his local lockdown has, throughout, asked all he knows ; "Do you know of anyone who got the virus ?" Not one. "Do you know of anyone who got the virus and died OF the Virus, not "with" the virus ?" Not one . Where he lives, retirement Village, 4000 ex-pat retirees. All ok. Not ONE got the virus or knew anyone who did and/or did & died. He now knows of ONE who did test positive but has yet to establish whether that ONE case had "underlying health issues" .

Now that Governments know how easy it is to control & lock-up most compliant and herd mentallity beings who will readily spy on each-other and look about at fellow neighbours to ensure observance of banging tin pots against the wall in support of, aaaaaaah, can't believe I'm falling for it, the NHS !..............The second wave IS coming.......... But, this one is far more sinister.

(from Benny and Joon:) You're out of your tree.

Maybe your mate needs to get out more....!

I'll see your story and raise you.

Mate of mine is a trained medical professional, focus on respiratory diseases, no less. Employed for many years in a large public hospital in a large US city, LA to be precise. Not many with such credentials hanging out in this message board, are there?

Has witnessed, worked on, worked with literally hundreds and hundreds of COVID19 cases on a daily basis for the past several months. Has watched most of them walk out just fine. Has watched hundreds of them being zipped into sealed biohazard bags. Has had the conversations with their families about why there will not be any "normal" funerals. Has literally been there, done that and has the records proving it. No bull****.

Sure, some of the "reaction" of the governments and various official bodies could be better called "over reaction". To imply that it's all some kind of scam makes one wonder about the mental competence of those implying it. Maybe brain damage from ingestion of household cleaners...?

Anyway, we're a long way off of the thread of this thread aren't we? Can we get back to focusing on how highly we regard CX mgmt?

Pleeeeease.

[CodyBlade]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J60fQr0GWo&feature=emb_logo

"Do you know of anyone who got the virus ?" See above vid..

[Pickuptruck]

So anyone who joined on B scale is a hero and anyone who joined on anything later has dragged down pay and conditions. Gold.

Apartments in Hong Kong are crazy expensive but my mate who is a cadet for QF bought 100 sqm in Sydney beside the Sydney Harbour Bridge last year easily on his S/O package. And my other mate who flies a turboprop at a new job for a BA feeder just bought in London 2br right in Kensington. Property so cheap everywhere, in every city but Hong Kong. More gold.

CX need to fire people, why haven’t they yet? The best thing an airline can do is fire people. Even more gold.

The crazy situation we’re in seems to suit the idiots on the forum.

[doolay]

I see they are still doing JFO upgrade training. As long as that's happening it will be very difficult to justify any redundancies. So train away CX!

[MENELAUS]

I see they are still doing JFO upgrade training. As long as that's happening it will be very difficult to justify any redundancies. So train away CX!

Won’t be necessary to justify anything. They’ll just do it. And do it with the tacit support of government.

[Busbitch]

I don't particularly like CX management, they have let me down a lot over the years & I don't trust them, but in the case of Covid19 downturn I gotta give it to em' I reckon they are doing a Stirling job. When I see what's happening around the world at places like Emirates, I say CX might just be the best Airline in the world to be at right now. People getting sacked left & right with no notice or redundancy but CX are working super hard to keep their heads above water & that ain't easy.

[MENELAUS]

Couldn’t agree more.

[fly1981]

I don't particularly like CX management, they have let me down a lot over the years & I don't trust them, but in the case of Covid19 downturn I gotta give it to em' I reckon they are doing a Stirling job. When I see what's happening around the world at places like Emirates, I say CX might just be the best Airline in the world to be at right now. People getting sacked left & right with no notice or redundancy but CX are working super hard to keep their heads above water & that ain't easy.

agree completely!

[ACMS]

I don't particularly like CX management, they have let me down a lot over the years & I don't trust them, but in the case of Covid19 downturn I gotta give it to em' I reckon they are doing a Stirling job. When I see what's happening around the world at places like Emirates, I say CX might just be the best Airline in the world to be at right now. People getting sacked left & right with no notice or redundancy but CX are working super hard to keep their heads above water & that ain't easy.

yes agreed.......

[Flying Clog]

Agree. I wouldn't want to work anywhere else right now. (I never thought those words would utter from my gob).

[Flex88]

I don't particularly like CX management, they have let me down a lot over the years & I don't trust them, but in the case of Covid19 downturn I gotta give it to em' I reckon they are doing a Stirling job. When I see what's happening around the world at places like Emirates, I say CX might just be the best Airline in the world to be at right now. People getting sacked left & right with no notice or redundancy but CX are working super hard to keep their heads above water & that ain't easy.

All I'll say is you're kidding yourself... Buckle up baby !!!

[cxorcist]

Hahaha, you guys and gals are stupid, ridiculous, Stockholm Syndrome jokes. Loving CX in HK right now is like loving Hamas because you live in Gaza. Both are running their respective outfits into the ground. It only takes the tiniest bit of perspective to see that.

Keeping “the team” together right now is quite literally retarded. What happened to that sentiment when CX let go of over 600 ground staff in HK and many more at the outports over the last few years? Are y’all that myopic? You think they aren’t coming for us? Get a clue! Get ready for a fight, if you have any in you???

[MENELAUS]

What fight do you propose having ? Given that the AOA are holding a 2 and a 7, off suit ?

[cxorcist]

What fight do you propose having ? Given that the AOA are holding a 2 and a 7, off suit ?
Don’t devalue yourself to nothing. We (CX/KA Pilots) worked our asses off for the last decade while CX gambled away all the profits to fuel hedging losses and attacked our contracts. Nearly every other airline was making record profits and billions of dollars. CX managed this airline into a quagmire, and that holds true today. Defend your contract! Make them offer a sign or be fired POS and make them suffer the morale and performance consequences if they do. Pilots are only temporarily out of demand. Once this virus is gone, the demand for pilots goes right back to where it was. The demographics are, finally, in our favour.

[FlyingNun]

All this ranting above mean nothing in the real world.
You can all have a wish list of how redundancies are made, but management will do what they please, unopposed by the “AOA” simply because thats what they’ve done since 1993, unless I missed something since.
All they need to do, is change the contract, which is legal... remove housing/schooling, and as a good measure; cut basic salary too.
Those who don’t like it will hand in 3 months notice and go. The company can then boast that they did not make any, and I emphasise the ANY, redundancies and kept “the team” together. Those who would leave as a result were not part of the team anyway.
Bases? yep, they’ll be kept open, or it could be one base to go from each area, namely FRA, MEL, LA.
There you have it.
Carry on stating your wish lists, and rant as much as you can, and we’ll see what the aoa can do.
God bless us all.

[GKOC41]

I don't particularly like CX management, they have let me down a lot over the years & I don't trust them, but in the case of Covid19 downturn I gotta give it to em' I reckon they are doing a Stirling job. When I see what's happening around the world at places like Emirates, I say CX might just be the best Airline in the world to be at right now. People getting sacked left & right with no notice or redundancy but CX are working super hard to keep their heads above water & that ain't easy.
I bet there are a lot of ex moaning Cathy Pilots loving their job at the moment as there is nothing else there and a stack of other Pilots unemployed. Cathy also know that for a few years there will be no attrition apart from retirements. Grass was always green just no-one realised - they do now

[cxorcist]

I bet there are a lot of ex moaning Cathy Pilots loving their job at the moment as there is nothing else there and a stack of other Pilots unemployed. Cathy also know that for a few years there will be no attrition apart from retirements. Grass was always green just no-one realised - they do now
Actually, it’s not fun watching your airline run into the ground (as they’ve been doing for the better part of a decade now). The paycheck is appreciated, but I’m not confident it will be there long term. The airline is NOT right sizing itself to near and medium term market conditions, which are now becoming quite clear. There’s no leadership whatsoever!

[Pickuptruck]

You have to admit is it pretty funny. Guys pointing to clauses in their contract for LIFO and yelling at a wall, (or their wife or the helper) that they’re safe. All around the world, and especially in the places HKG labour law is based upon, LIFO ain’t happening.

And then there’s the, “they’re still upgrading JFO” as if that means anything relative to job security. Lol

[Australia2]

I don't particularly like CX management, they have let me down a lot over the years & I don't trust them, but in the case of Covid19 downturn I gotta give it to em' I reckon they are doing a Stirling job. When I see what's happening around the world at places like Emirates, I say CX might just be the best Airline in the world to be at right now. People getting sacked left & right with no notice or redundancy but CX are working super hard to keep their heads above water & that ain't easy.

agreed, dreadful times

[unitedabx]

I don't particularly like CX management, they have let me down a lot over the years & I don't trust them, but in the case of Covid19 downturn I gotta give it to em' I reckon they are doing a Stirling job. When I see what's happening around the world at places like Emirates, I say CX might just be the best Airline in the world to be at right now. People getting sacked left & right with no notice or redundancy but CX are working super hard to keep their heads above water & that ain't easy.

Sorry to burst your CX Bubble but you are delusional. Qantas announcing 5000 job cuts and grounding of entire A380 fleet. Lufthansa and BA about to announce the same. To think CX is any different is ridiculous, You really need to wake up.WAKE UP.

All this ranting above mean nothing in the real world.
You can all have a wish list of how redundancies are made, but management will do what they please, unopposed by the “AOA” simply because thats what they’ve done since 1993, unless I missed something since.
All they need to do, is change the contract, which is legal... remove housing/schooling, and as a good measure; cut basic salary too.
Those who don’t like it will hand in 3 months notice and go. The company can then boast that they did not make any, and I emphasise the ANY, redundancies and kept “the team” together. Those who would leave as a result were not part of the team anyway.
Bases? yep, they’ll be kept open, or it could be one base to go from each area, namely FRA, MEL, LA.
There you have it.
Carry on stating your wish lists, and rant as much as you can, and we’ll see what the aoa can do.
God bless us all.


Agreed.
If anyone seriously thinks management haven't already got their redundancy list ready to go then they are fooling themselves, their families, everyone. I have little doubt the recent HKG Govt. cash injection will demand a re-fining of the list to start with non-HKG employess ( ie based crew ) followed by non PR. Anyone on the 777 needs to wake up too. As always AOA asleep on the job.

[AllWobbly]

agreed, dreadful times

yup just check 777/Airbus July’s roster it’s not pretty