Large aircraft to private strips

[Grizzly Bare]

How can an aircraft of greater than 5700kg operate IFR into a dirt strip without instrument approaches, when by definition an "adequate aerodrome" requires at least 1 authorised approach and meteorological forecasts.?

[Qwark]

Grizzly,

Why are you concerned with "adequate" aerodromes? Yes you need an adequate aerodrome available within 60min if your not EDTO authorised but the destination doesn't need to be adequate.? You clearly need an alternate though. CAO 82.5 describes some limitations for AOC holders of high capacity ops. If the operation was at night then an instrument approach is required but not by day. Also if a turbo jet (probably not likely if the strip is gravel) you need PAPI or other electronic vertical guidance. I don't think Low Capacity RPT (CAO 82.3) requires instrument approaches available for night ops. Anyway what aircraft and type of operation are you talking about?

[machtuk]

AWK Ops such as Air Ambo's proceed VFR (if possible)into such dromes without App's

[Xeptu]

The purpose of the Instrument approach requirement is about obstacle clearance data to provide a circling area and approach path (splays) which does not exist at those aerodromes without an approach. Not so much about navigation. A good time to reiterate, simply because the NGT VFR rules say descent below LSALT within 3 miles, does not necessarily mean it is safe to do so with respect to obstacle clearance.

[Douche]

AWK Ops such as Air Ambo's proceed VFR (if possible)into such dromes without App's

This is definitely NOT true.

Generally you will need a Flight Manual supplement with dirt field Ops approved, you need the company Operations Manual to explain and approve such operations and you would not operate into these places without a suitable alternate aerodrome.

Good topic though

[compressor stall]

AWK Ops such as Air Ambo's proceed VFR (if possible)into such dromes without App's

Maybe you mean fly in VMC under the IFR?

[Lead Balloon]

What 5,700kg + aircraft are we talking about? (Plenty of RFDS aircraft go into and out of strips without instrument approaches but, as far as I am aware, PC12s and Kingairs are not 5,700kg + aircraft.)

[compressor stall]

What 5,700kg + aircraft are we talking about? (Plenty of RFDS aircraft go into and out of strips without instrument approaches but, as far as I am aware, PC12s and Kingairs are not 5,700kg + aircraft.)
B350s are >5700

[Lead Balloon]

Thanks cs. I’ve learnt something. Do any of the RFDSs operate them?

[megan]

Kingairs are not 5,700kg + aircraftThe 200 can be if the relevant STC is incorporated, raises the maximum take-off weight from 12,500 to 13,420. Some Oz operators have incorporated the STC and fly single pilot in the EMS role.

King Air Maximum Aircraft Take-Off Gross Weight Increase (http://www.kingairmagazine.com/article/technically-communique-2015-5/)

[Alice Kiwican]

Thanks cs. I’ve learnt something. Do any of the RFDSs operate them?

RFDS in QLD and NSW operate B350’s. Of course WA and Central Operations have PC24’s which are over 5700kg

[machtuk]

This is definitely NOT true.

Generally you will need a Flight Manual supplement with dirt field Ops approved, you need the company Operations Manual to explain and approve such operations and you would not operate into these places without a suitable alternate aerodrome.

Good topic though

Did it for 10 years, all us pilots must have broken the rules (yr rules) thousands of times!

[Lead Balloon]

Thanks for all those who educated me on the 5,700kg + aircraft that engage in ‘flying doctor’-type operations. I suppose that means the OP’s question remains unanswered...

[Goat Whisperer]

the Packers' jets into Newcastle Waters...?

[gerry111]

the Packers' jets into Newcastle Waters...?
Probably not. James Packer sold the property to private equity about ten years ago.

[Xeptu]

Lead Balloon, This is because the OP's question is not clear, what does an adequate have to do with dirt strips

[Lead Balloon]

OK. Forget “dirt strips”.

Walk me through how a 5,700kg + aircraft engaged in ‘commercial’ operations - e.g. aerial work - is legally able to land somewhere that does not have an instrument approach.

[Xeptu]

There never has been a requirement. There are additional requirements for example an alternate, for different classes of operation. Are you going down the path of surveyed obstacle clearance gradients data for high capacity operations (guaranteed one engine out performance) at an aerodrome with no approach procedure.

[Lead Balloon]

So Grizzly has his answer.

[brokenagain]

Walk me through how a 5,700kg + aircraft engaged in ‘commercial’ operations - e.g. aerial work - is legally able to land somewhere that does not have an instrument approach.

No problems, as long as it’s daytime.

ENR 1.4
A flight operating under the IFR by day may be planned to a non- instrument procedure destination provided that the aircraft can be navigated in accordance with ENR 1.1 Section 4.1

ENR 1.5
An aeroplane with a MTOW greater than 5,700KG operating under IFR by night may only be planned to a destination which has an approved instrument approach procedure for which the aircraft is appropriately equipped and the pilot is qualified.

[Capt Fathom]

So if you can see the ‘dirt strip’ you can land on it. Sounds reasonable!

Why do we make such a fuss in Australia?

[Global Aviator]

Here’s a bit of dirt...

https://youtu.be/4ivH7tLiFLY

A bit of fun!

[601]

At any number of mine strips back on the 80s in Qld and NT you would see Lears, Westwinds and Citations.
These strips did not have nav aids. GPS was not even heard off. Omega was in its infancy.
Visual at LSAT and a WAC on the lap.
Only daylight operations.
However we did have our moments with ATC and the dreaded "Operational Approval"

Statements like"but you cannot go there" when submitting a plan for a landing point that was a gravel strip.
"Why"
"Your a jet"
"Yes and a jet that has a gravel kit and a AFM supplement for operations on sod and gravel"

One classic reply from the ATC bloke behind the desk that was worried about putting his signature in the box at the bottom of the flight plan when told that we had an AFM Supplement for sod and gravel ops was "But you blokes from Qld will put anything in your AFM"

[Agent86]

Nothing new here, Cobham have been operating the 146 & RJ aircraft into Gravel strips without approaches or slope guidance since 2012
https://australianaviation.com.au/2012/07/cobham-mods-jets-for-gravel-runways/

[compressor stall]

Did it for 10 years, all us pilots must have broken the rules (yr rules) thousands of times!
So did you change category from IFR or did you proceed in VMC under the IFR?

[machtuk]

So did you change category from IFR or did you proceed in VMC under the IFR?

Flights where filed under the IFR, we landed at said unimproved dromes anyway we could within the scope of the rules. Rarely even the rule book could be thrown out the window but only under certain conditions.

[compressor stall]

I think you’ve missed the point of my question,, but I infer from that answer that you went below the LSALT in VMC under the IFR. That’s the normal way. You didn’t advise ATC to change category of flight to VFR (although you could).

Unimproved strips or mercy flights are obfuscation.

[601]

I think you’ve missed the point of my question,, but I infer from that answer that you went below the LSALT in VMC under the IFR.

LSALT was your minima.
Not visual at LSALT go to alternate.
But we generally had a good idea what the weather was like.

[George Glass]

OK. Forget “dirt strips”.

Walk me through how a 5,700kg + aircraft engaged in ‘commercial’ operations - e.g. aerial work - is legally able to land somewhere that does not have an instrument approach.

I landed a jet at Ginbata when it was first built. No nav. aids. No forecast. Descend to LSALT ( or grid MORA)plus 500. If not visual divert to Newman. Simples. Check the synoptic chart for wind direction and use area QNH . Easy.

[Lead Balloon]

Thanks GG. I think we’ve established that it happens/ed frequently. The OP was asking about how it happens/ed legally. I think we’ve now sorted that out.

Cheers

[George Glass]

Thanks GG. I think we’ve established that it happens/ed frequently. The OP was asking about how it happens/ed legally. I think we’ve now sorted that out.

Cheers

Not sure what your point is. It was perfectly legal. Mind you my F/O who had just come from LongHaul nearly had a fit .
Two different worlds........

[machtuk]

I don't get the confusion here? You can file an IFR Flt Plan in an A/C over 12500 lbs in AWK/Pvt Cat and land at a suitable unimproved strip legally! GG explains how!

[Capt Fathom]

Mind you my F/O who had just come from LongHaul nearly had a fit

Of course he did! He’d never been in a light aircraft before! :}

[Qwark]

Reviving an old thread.

After a few years away from Aus, I am trying to find this AIP reference to restrictions on night operations in aircraft above 5700kg to aerodromes without instrument approachs. Has this reference been removed recently? ( due to the introduction of Part 91 )?

No problems, as long as it’s daytime.

ENR 1.4


ENR 1.5

[compressor stall]

After a few years away from Aus, I am trying to find this AIP reference to restrictions on night operations in aircraft above 5700kg to aerodromes without instrument approachs. Has this reference been removed recently? ( due to the introduction of Part 91 )?

Yes it was deleted. There is a small D on the RHS of page ENR 1.10-3. 1.4 and 1.5 were before 2 - Flight Notification.

Now Part 91 MOS 8.05(1) refers.

And I can't see anything in Part 121 that overrides that for >5,700 Air Transport ops.... yet. :}