HS780 Andover C1/E3

[Jackonicko]

How many Navs did the Andover carry, as standard?

[Biggles54]

How many Navs did the Andover carry, as standard?
One. In the flight checking role there was also an Air Electronics Officer. All first-class guys with either brevet.

And they did buy the beers occasionally. 🤓

[Out Of Trim]

I don't know. Why would it require more than one? :confused:

[Green Flash]

With a stated crew of 2-3 - presumably pilot, co-pilot and loady - possibly no nav at all? Perhaps the Open Skies aircraft may have carried a dedicated Nav?

[Jackonicko]

I thought that back in the days of 46 Squadron most RAF transports had two navs, and I wondered whether the aircraft had two Nav seats.

[Rocket2]

As Brevet says, at least for the mighty 115 operations, very happy days working on the best squadron (with the best boss) in the RAF by far (IMHO)

[Jackonicko]

I'm wondering if the AEO occupied what had once been the second nav's position?

[longer ron]

46 Sqn - Abingdon Era
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/489x436/andover_1_38f704e89230db4aeddab01bb9bf9563f975ae81.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/490x439/andover_2_2d8b3e53dce6eea78fc6bf7b20b54804fba4a342.jpg

[ORAC]

I'm wondering if the AEO occupied what had once been the second nav's position?



https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/collections/1994-1475-A-Andover-XS639.pdf

To No. 115 Squadron, RAF Brize Norton, Oxon operating all the E.3/E3A aircraft as part of No. 90 Group.
Painted in a high visibility scheme of white and light aircraft grey with signal red cheatline, engines, wingtips and tail unit. Operated transport tasks in addition to calibration duties.

XS639 was one of three E3A ‘hack’ aircraft used by the Squadron in a variety of roles, primarily transport of passengers and freight. Though not fitted with specialist radar equipment, the E3A could be used as a passive radar target.

They were identical to the C.1 though with the addition of an extra crew position alongside the navigator.......

[Jackonicko]

Hey Longer Ron,

That looks like two pilots, a nav, an eng and a loadie?

[longer ron]

Hi Jacko
I would not like to be drawn on the crew make up.(I cannot see the Half Wings clearly enough)
AFAIK - they did have 2x NCO Navs as late as Thorney Island.

[longer ron]

This 46 sqn 1971 route flight with cargo to Malta/Cyprus has a crew of 2 x Pilots,2 x Navs and 2 x Loadies.
I guess the crew make up might have varied quite a bit depending on tasking.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/728x945/46_sqn_crew_ceabc16ef623befd21ceec5b14ba4256cccbaf6e.jpg

[Juan Tugoh]

The standard crew of an E3 was 4; 2 pilots, a Nav and an AEO. There was no ALM but the AEOs carried out the duties of Freight Bay Management. I think they were qualified to carry up to 12 pax. If more pax were carried either a second AEO would be carried or an ALM sourced from the OCU or Staneval would help out. The E3As without the IRFIS fitted still had the second nav station fitted.

[JENKINS]

What a nasty-looking crowd in the newspaper article; would one, for example, buy a used motor car from one in particular? As for a Squadron Commander with a double-barreled name.......? An appropriate post, since it is their time of the year.

No NCO Navigators at Thorney on 46, albeit that one may have moved from Abingdon as an instructor with the Training Squadron. Standard crew one of each, that's four for the innumetate.

[Brian 48nav]

In my short time in the RAF (65-73, Herc' nav from 67 ) all transport aircraft had only ONE nav, apart from checks, training and in the case of the Herc', gyro/grid sorties over the pole.

[Wycombe]

See Terry Boothby (RIP) there, served with him as a Reservist about 30 years ago! Was an LM in his regular days (Brits and '10's also I think).

[Blacksheep]

We had three C2s (HS748) and one C1 (HS780) at Northolt on 32 Squadron. Crews for both types were two pilots, one navigator and one loadmaster. I never saw or heard of a second navigator but there was a crew seat in that forward compartment for the loady as he wasn't allowed to sit with the "guests" for take-off and landing.

[Jackonicko]

So what was the difference between the E3 and the E3A (no IRFIS on the E3A, right?), and between the E3A and a basic C1?

How many C1(PR)s were there? Both the 60 Squadron aircraft, I guess?

[Herod]

Some blasts from the (distant) past in those pictures. Mark Gilson and David Crwys-Williams to name but two. In post #8, Dave Higgs. OC Ops Thorney Island 1970-72

[Fareastdriver]

Is Gp. Capt. W. J. Knowles still around with M.E Leggett & Co Ltd?

I would like to join a scheme that will double my money in nine years.

[Juan Tugoh]

So what was the difference between the E3 and the E3A (no IRFIS on the E3A, right?), and between the E3A and a basic C1?

How many C1(PR)s were there? Both the 60 Squadron aircraft, I guess?

The E3 had the full IRFIS kit and upgraded avionics from the basic C1. The E3A had the all the work required to fit IRFIS including the second nav station, upgraded avionics and electrics etc. They both had the centre tanks fitted (seldom used) not sure if the C1s had the centre tank. Essentially the E3As were in use reserves with the ability to have the IRFIS fitted if there was a major issue with one of the E3s.

[Jackonicko]

Did the E3As have the big light on the front end, Juan?

[Juan Tugoh]

Did the E3As have the big light on the front end, Juan?

I don’t think they did, and having done a quick picture search it looks like my memory is good. I am happy to be corrected but from what I remember the big light was for a fall back option in the calibration role if IRFIS failed. It was possible to drop the AEO off with his trusty theodolite and a radio. They would track the light through the theodolite and then compare it to the radar trace of the PAR to assess it. Happy to be corrected or amended by those with better memories.

[KPax]

Didn't 60 Sqn use a Nav when flying out of Wildenrath up the Corridor.

[Video Mixdown]

Didn't 60 Sqn use a Nav when flying out of Wildenrath up the Corridor.
The Pembrokes carried two navigators - one for route navigation and a second to operate the fit. This probably continued when the Andovers arrived. We were aware that there were problems getting the fit to work properly in the Andovers, resulting in the Pembrokes staying in service longer than planned.

[NRU74]

When the Andover came into service at Abingdon c 1966 much was made (probably by Hawker Siddeley) of its ‘’kneeling’ undercarriage capability available for loading.
Was it ever much used ?

[scoobytopdog]

When the Andover came into service at Abingdon c 1966 much was made (probably by Hawker Siddeley) of its ‘’kneeling’ undercarriage capability available for loading.
Was it ever much used ?

When the C1’s and E3a’s were sent to 32 Squadron in the early 90’s, they were used mainly as troopers between the UK and Germany, so the knelling wasn’t used. However, when the RAF disposed on them in 1994, I went with XS644 to Kenya to use on aid flights into South Sudan. The kneeeling was used all the time as the strips we were flying into had no facilities apart from manpower.

Scooby

[rolling20]

As Brevet says, at least for the mighty 115 operations, very happy days working on the best squadron (with the best boss) in the RAF by far (IMHO)
Had a very happy week on detachment from my UAS with 115, just after the Falklands. Very nice bunch of guys, flew a few trips in the old jump seat with a Northern Irish Captain and young Co, who had just come off Vulcans, buggered if I can remember their names. I seemed to remember we had just a Nav onboard ( I do not remember an AEO, but I could be wrong) and I was most surprised that he ran through the check list. Great experience and the memory has stayed with me.

[BEagle]

During an Easter vacation from University, 3 of us ULAS students went for a short detachment with 46 Sqn, thanks to my ex-RAFC Flt Cdr ('Chunky') who had gone to 46 as a wheel of some sort.

Fascinating time (apart from that 'suicide corner near Thorney); one trip was a pilot's last one on the squadron. So we flew low level all the way from Thorney to (I think) Prestwick - or it might have been Glasgow. Then over to Benbecula (or was it Stornoway?) to collect some passengers before flying airways to Lyneham.

Lyneham was incredibly busy back then, but we were directed to a parking spot. Then out strode a Plt Off in No 1 uniform with the dreaded red arm band with yellow wheel clutching a clip board. He pointed his brown-gloved finger at the captain and made kneeling gestures with the clip board.... Which was like a red rag to a bull; the flight deck window flew open and the captain asked this 'mover' WTF he wanted. "Kneel the aircraft" was the reply. "No I b***dy well won't", shouted the captain, "I'm shutting down; ***k off and get some Comet steps - they'll fit!".

As the props stopped, the captain told me that unnecessary kneeling was always avoided as it put quite a load on the hydraulics and was only used if there was no other option …"...and not because some jumped up mover wants us to".

The mover failed to find any steps (although we knew there were some), so the passengers were disembarked using a catering truck with a scissor lift.

I learned a lot from that trip - and what a great place Thorney Island was too!

[rolling20]

During an Easter vacation from University, 3 of us ULAS students went for a short detachment with 46 Sqn, thanks to my ex-RAFC Flt Cdr ('Chunky') who had gone to 46 as a wheel of some sort.

Fascinating time (apart from that 'suicide corner near Thorney); one trip was a pilot's last one on the squadron. So we flew low level all the way from Thorney to (I think) Prestwick - or it might have been Glasgow. Then over to Benbecula (or was it Stornoway?) to collect some passengers before flying airways to Lyneham.

Lyneham was incredibly busy back then, but we were directed to a parking spot. Then out strode a Plt Off in No 1 uniform with the dreaded red arm band with yellow wheel clutching a clip board. He pointed his brown-gloved finger at the captain and made kneeling gestures with the clip board.... Which was like a red rag to a bull; the flight deck window flew open and the captain asked this 'mover' WTF he wanted. "Kneel the aircraft" was the reply. "No I b***dy well won't", shouted the captain, "I'm shutting down; ***k off and get some Comet steps - they'll fit!".

As the props stopped, the captain told me that unnecessary kneeling was always avoided as it put quite a load on the hydraulics and was only used if there was no other option …"...and not because some jumped up mover wants us to".

The mover failed to find any steps (although we knew there were some), so the passengers were disembarked using a catering truck with a scissor lift.

I learned a lot from that trip - and what a great place Thorney Island was too!

Ah BEagle, I to went to Stornaway (with 115) on the Isle of Lewis, from Brize and then a night stop at Lossie, where IIRC it still looked daylight at around 2am.
I was grabbed in the busy bar by an X UWAS member who was based there, I remember his first name, but won't repeat it here. Nice chap and I wished I spoken to him for longer. I believe he was on Jags there.
I think it was before Lossie we did some low level stuff around the islands and then some calibration at Macrihanish, where I sat in on the ground with the calibration officer and watched 115 do their stuff.
When we were at Stornoway, I ventured into the terminal looking for a mars bar!
There were a number of teenage girls in the terminal, who were most impressed with my olive overalls and white epaulets.
I was suddenly the 19 year old Captain and grew a foot or saw taller.
Happy days!

[JENKINS]

For BEagle, the Captain sans steps sounds very much in character with one of the nasty iindividuals from the newspaper above. The very same who even now accuses me of causing his being kicked out of Harrods one afternoon many years ago. It really was a lovely afternoon.

[NRU74]

Beags,
Do you know if ‘suicide corner’ was formerly known (I was there in ‘64) as ‘no-guts’ corner ? There was a particularly nasty corner, pre breathalyser, on the road en route from Emsworth to Thorney.

[k3k3]

There was a nasty adverse camber on that bend.

[Rocket2]

Scoobytopdog, we had to check the kneeling u/c every month if memory serves correct, yes we used the system for loading freight on & off for the overseas trips we did, seldom any problems with it even at the end, great aircraft to work on.

[Juan Tugoh]

I don't recall there being any restrictions with regard to kneeling. It was used when required but when steps were avaiable they were used including the wonderful crew ladder. There was an issue if the Captain, whilste doing his walk round "forgot" the aircraft was knelt, as the normal hydraulic selections in the nose gear bay had to be avoided or hydaulic fluid was dumped all over the pan. Which was sub-optimal. Mind you the fuel tanks also tended to do that if it was warm and the "standard" fuel load of 11200 was asked for on a warm day.

[BEagle]

The problem with that bend was both the adverse camber and its benign appearance for the unwary. As one of my colleagues proved one evening in his Triumph Herald. Approaching from the Thorny direction he ignored the 'slow' signs and entered too quickly, then braked.... Oversteer, the Herald's swing axle rear suspension and the adverse camber had us out of control and heading for the bondhu at an alarming rate. Fortunately he caught it.....just.

"So I guess 'slow' means 'slow'", quipped my fellow passenger in the back.

[ORAC]

Which reminds of the bridge over the railway outside Coltishall. A lot of people didn’t make the 90 left/right either side, especially if they were going too fast and got airborne in the middle.

[BEagle]

Not to mention 'cow **** corner' at RAF Leeming before the new road was built! I recall being a passenger in a car sliding sideways around that bend on our way back from Bedale…. I gather it claimed quite a few!

[RubiC Cube]

The HS748 Draggies in Australia frequently had 3 navs on board, but then again it was a nav trainer.

[Gypsy]

I flew them for about 8 years on and off in the RAF. Did the trials on IRFIS.

Standard crew was 2 pilots, one nav. Others depended upon the task; so an AEO for all ILS calibrations and before IRFIS an extra AEO for the Theo talk down which was also required for the PAR. For freight and pax a LM.

The E3A had the big light because it was also used for PAR calibrations and without the big light, the Theo chap couldn't see you at long range.
I left before the Andover PR finally arrived so can't comment on that.

[delboy1964]

Hey Longer Ron,

That looks like two pilots, a nav, an eng and a loadie?
Nope not quite. This very nice crew transport had 2 pilots, 1 nav and a loadie for normal ops. If dropping paras then extra dispatcher/s were carried also if dropping Seac packs or 4 linked 1 ton containers on a roller track. Initially 6 x 1 tons were cleared for auto drop but following a trial when a rear container jumped the roller guide rails and temporarily caused a jam with the c of g out of limits to the rear this was changed to 2 + 4. As 1 tons were normally released at 400 ft agl at (105 kts? I think) a nose high stalling aircraft made the crew very nervous. I see on 1 picture a John Love. He was always called Brian on the Sqn.

[NRU74]

I see from today’s Telegraph that AVM Dave Screws presided over the 103rd 46 Sqn Reunion by video link on Saturday.
Well done !

[tiller]

What a nasty-looking crowd in the newspaper article; would one, for example, buy a used motor car from one in particular? As for a Squadron Commander with a double-barreled name.......? An appropriate post, since it is their time of the year.

No NCO Navigators at Thorney on 46, albeit that one may have moved from Abingdon as an instructor with the Training Squadron. Standard crew one of each, that's four for the innumetate.
The "nasty looking" navigator was Garth Hawkins who was attached to the SAS and tragically died with his DAS comrades when the helicopter they were flying in from a carrier in the South Atlantic crashed killing everyone on board. Garth was the only RAF operational casualty in The Falklands conflict.

[WB627]

They do not look any different from the aircrew I met as a CCF cadet and I met rather more than most as my Dad was a pilot with 1 AEF. Not only did I meet current aircrew including pilots holding doing a stint on the AEF, but I also met senior serving officers who were "keeping there hand in" whilst their day job was flying a desk. I also met a lot of WW2 pilots like my dad, including his personal friends, Mac Hamilton DFC*, Frank Wolfson DFC, Bob Robinson a City of Glasgow Squadron Spitfire Pilot (you can always tell a fighter pilot, but you cannot tell him much!). There were even a couple of Navy pilots on the AEF, one serving (MOD desk job) and one retired who happened to live round the corner from us. And there is my late father in law 618 Squadron and his brother Blenheim air gunner 236 Squadron Battle of Britain.

They all did their duty for King/Queen and country and unlike Garth, lived to tell the tale. I would have bought a used car from any of them.

The post by JENKINS. is one of the most reprehensible posts I have ever had the misfortune to read on PPRuNe

[chevvron]

Nope not quite. This very nice crew transport had 2 pilots, 1 nav and a loadie for normal ops. If dropping paras then extra dispatcher/s were carried also if dropping Seac packs or 4 linked 1 ton containers on a roller track. Initially 6 x 1 tons were cleared for auto drop but following a trial when a rear container jumped the roller guide rails and temporarily caused a jam with the c of g out of limits to the rear this was changed to 2 + 4. As 1 tons were normally released at 400 ft agl at (105 kts? I think) a nose high stalling aircraft made the crew very nervous. I see on 1 picture a John Love. He was always called Brian on the Sqn.
Just what the RAF needs today to supplement the Hercs they are about to retire.

[NickB]

I remember a very friendly Andover pilot called Hamish - can't remember his surname.
He used to fly the Islander at Netheravon from time to time, then disappeared. I was then posted to RAF Laarbruch, where one day the Andover E3A flight checker was with us... part way through the day the crew popped in for a Met brief and there was Hamish! He was a mature gent then and that was 25 years ago! Anyway on here know him?

[pr00ne]

They do not look any different from the aircrew I met as a CCF cadet and I met rather more than most as my Dad was a pilot with 1 AEF. Not only did I meet current aircrew including pilots holding doing a stint on the AEF, but I also met senior serving officers who were "keeping there hand in" whilst their day job was flying a desk. I also met a lot of WW2 pilots like my dad, including his personal friends, Mac Hamilton DFC*, Frank Wolfson DFC, Bob Robinson a City of Glasgow Squadron Spitfire Pilot (you can always tell a fighter pilot, but you cannot tell him much!). There were even a couple of Navy pilots on the AEF, one serving (MOD desk job) and one retired who happened to live round the corner from us. And there is my late father in law 618 Squadron and his brother Blenheim air gunner 236 Squadron Battle of Britain.

They all did their duty for King/Queen and country and unlike Garth, lived to tell the tale. I would have bought a used car from any of them.

The post by JENKINS. is one of the most reprehensible posts I have ever had the misfortune to read on PPRuNe

Er, as someone who was aircrew, I have to say that, whilst there WERE a lot of great guys (and they all were guys in my day) there were also some thoroughly rotten bad eggs who I most certainly would NOT have bought a second hand car from! Folk come in all shapes and sizes and types. Good, bad and indifferent. Aircrew are no different.

[JW411]

Amen to that.

[WB627]

Er, as someone who was aircrew, I have to say that, whilst there WERE a lot of great guys (and they all were guys in my day) there were also some thoroughly rotten bad eggs who I most certainly would NOT have bought a second hand car from! Folk come in all shapes and sizes and types. Good, bad and indifferent. Aircrew are no different.

Perhaps I was just fortunate to mix with the best of the best of the best. :}

[Nil_Drift]

Apart from a quick flight in a Bulldog for air experience at Cosford in 1980, the flight that inspired me to want to be aircrew was when I was invited to the flight deck of an Andover to observe the approach into TTTE Cottesmore in 1982. We had been on det to Machrihanish and we flew there and back in an Andover.

On the approach, long and short finals, there was a frequent loud whirr which I believe now to be the stall warner. I asked if that should be sounding and the crew laughed and said 'It always does!".

Decent chaps who were the catalyst to change a young man's life path to go from a techie to aircrew. Always appreciated.

[Brian 48nav]

Nick B,

I had hoped an ex-Andover man would come up with the name you are looking for - But I have a vague memory of a 'Hamish' on 52 at Changi when I was there on 48 ( Hercules ) and the surname I think was Raynham.

I possibly remember him because his 'Jizz' suggested he was an Army man rather than RAF.


JW411

Good to see you are still 'On the perch'!. I had a long chat with 'Lou Scannon' on Friday, who said he had lunch with you recently.

Brian Wildey.

[Biggles54]

Nick B,

I had hoped an ex-Andover man would come up with the name you are looking for - But I have a vague memory of a 'Hamish' on 52 at Changi when I was there on 48 ( Hercules ) and the surname I think was Raynham.

I possibly remember him because his 'Jizz' suggested he was an Army man rather than RAF.


JW411

Good to see you are still 'On the perch'!. I had a long chat with 'Lou Scannon' on Friday, who said he had lunch with you recent
Brian Wildey.

Hamish Raynham is correct Brian. A man of many parts and interests who strode purposefully absolutely everywhere. I had the privilege of working/flying with Hamish on the venerable Andover both in/out of the Service: truly an officer and a gentleman.

[pr00ne]

Perhaps I was just fortunate to mix with the best of the best of the best. :}

See recent article on the Red Arrows dismissals and resignations. They are thought of as "the best of the best".

It isn't true now, and it wasn't true then. People are people, as one introduction to a fascinating account of RN carrier aviation in WW2 said, "this isn't some white washed nicely cleansed account. The people involved were human, some lied, some cheated, some slept with others men's wives..."

[Davef68]

I have a suspicion, based on his tone, that Jenkins was closer to that article than you may think

[reynoldsno1]

I knew Hamish in Oman, where he was flying on the SOAF BAC 1-11s. He once trained as a ballet dancer, and could still pull some classical moves after a few drinks.
He also spent some time in Antarctica c. 1975-76

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/509x563/hamish_raynham_1749120f9bf674918daf2916b82845c42f515d85.jpg
He often looked this serious!

[ACW342]

Just thought this might be of interest. I was the ops room assistant (Cpl.) alongside Flt Lt Arthur Small, the Ops controller at SCFCU from 1984 -1986. It was presented to me on my departure for my penultimate tour (EDUR) in the RAF. I am thankful to Arthur for the many things he taught me in relation to the wider job. One of the perks when I called eleventy five ops, to inform them that a particular task was cancelled, was to grab the spare chicken curry in-flight meal. Wherever you are in the Universe Arthur, remember - Effetuens Irrumator Es.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1198/img_0547_c2ad8da3d5a28cb3b495ab20ca29495efbde2f8e.jpeg

[steamchicken]

I knew Hamish in Oman, where he was flying on the SOAF BAC 1-11s. He once trained as a ballet dancer, and could still pull some classical moves after a few drinks.
He also spent some time in Antarctica c. 1975-76

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/509x563/hamish_raynham_1749120f9bf674918daf2916b82845c42f515d85.jpg
He often looked this serious!

He sounds like an interesting colleague

[Tankertrashnav]

I used to fly a bit with 52 squadron Andovers when I was fire officer at Seletar in 1967. Definitely one navigator on any trip I went on. As for the kneeling facility, this was used quite frequently , especially when taking kit "up country" and using strips with few facilities other than manpower. Best trip I went on was a weekend in Manila (staging through Labuan), A few people I remember were Andy Coverdale and John Austin (pilots) and Johnny Griffin (nav). I used to stand at the nav table and watch Johnny plotting and think it was a mystery how he knew where we were - four years later I was a nav myself and I still used to think it was it was a mystery!

[NickB]

I knew Hamish in Oman, where he was flying on the SOAF BAC 1-11s. He once trained as a ballet dancer, and could still pull some classical moves after a few drinks.
He also spent some time in Antarctica c. 1975-76

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/509x563/hamish_raynham_1749120f9bf674918daf2916b82845c42f515d85.jpg
He often looked this serious!


That's the chap - I've not seen him since about 1997 & I'm certain he'd have no recollection of me!!

There was another Islander pilot at Netheravon - Dick Clode IIRC... ex-C130 pilot?

Thanks to you & Brian.
Cheers
Nick

[Il Duce]

Hamish! Top man. He carried on with the Andovers (flight checking) when they went to Hunting Aviation at East Midlands. I think (*standing by to be corrected) he retired when Hunting lost the Flight Checking contract in 1996; the airframes were then sold off. I think* they ended up in Africa.

[ancientaviator62]

NickB,
Dick Clode was a C130 pilot and was on 30 Sqn when I was there.

[NickB]

IL Duce - Hamish was visiting Laarbruch in an Andover E3A in 1997/98 ish, so was definitely still flying then!

Re. Dick Clode - he must be retired now and not seen him in > 27 years. He was the quickest pilot to Met brief - LAF, TAF & gone in a flash!

[Nil_Drift]

NickB,
Dick Clode was a C130 pilot and was on 30 Sqn when I was there.

Wow! It's been decades since I heard that name!

I was also on 30 Sqn, in the early '90's', but Dick Clode was a name which often cropped up when it was time to 'swing the lantern' in the co-pilot's room surrounded by empty bottles and tinnies.

IIRC, they often involved stories about taxying in thick fog at EGDL with various outcomes. Perhaps if he was not so fast in the Met brief there would have been fewer stories for others to tell?

[NickB]

To be fair to Dick, when at EGDN, all he had to do was take off, circle the airfield, throw some 'jumpers' out, land and do it all over again. All day long.
So he only needed a basic Met. brief and was always a nice, friendly chap when he popped in first thing.
My God that feels like a lifetime ago now!