Need a fuel top up?

[nomorehelosforme]

Well you learn something new every day, you can now fill up your Robinson at a regular petrol station!!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8343715/Helicopter-pilot-lands-Polish-petrol-station-tank.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8343715/Helicopter-pilot-lands-Polish-petrol-station-tank.htmlThis)

This is the strange moment a man lands his private helicopter at a petrol station to fill up on gas before paying and flying off.

Mobile phone footage of the bizarre scene shows stunned customers looking on as the pilot lands and then pushes his chopper to a petrol pump at the station in the town of Garwolin in Poland.

After filling the tank he then pays 'as if nothing had happened' before another video shows him climbing into the cockpit and taking off.

[ApolloHeli]

The Cabri G2 can be run on "alternate fuel" as mentioned in the RFM, although I seem to recall an engineer told me "temporarily" means there is limit on the number of flight hours the alternate fuel grades can be used between 50H checks.

"Alternate grades

Automotive unleaded gasoline can be used temporarily if it complies with EN228 or ASTM D4814 and following conditions :

Minimum octane rating ............................................................ . 98 (*) Alcohols (ethanol, methanol, etc.) ............................... Zero content

(*) (RON ≥ 98 and MON ≥ 87) or AKI ≥ 93

Note 1 : When using alternate grades, power is limited to maximum continuous power. Refer to page 2-8.
Note 2: Refer to page 4-15 for management of possible fuel gage error."

[JimEli]

automotive gasoline STC

[CGameProgrammerr]

Only the carbureted engines have the auto-gas STC; the fuel-injected engines require leaded fuel. I do wonder if you can fly a turbine on auto diesel.

[Ascend Charlie]

Only for a desperate reason, auto diesel has a lot more wax still in it than Avtur does. Can clog things up.

[Sloppy Link]

Only the carbureted engines have the auto-gas STC; the fuel-injected engines require leaded fuel. I do wonder if you can fly a turbine on auto diesel.
Westland Scout can run on pretty much anything other than Avgas. Kerosene, paraffin, diesel, Avcat/tag, Civgas, Combatgas. All it means is increased servicing, filters, nozzles, fuel lubricated pumps etc. Avgas flashpoint is too low, the engine would run too hot.

[Northernstar]

So as mentioned above there’s AutogasSTC for 44’s still in carbs. I know fixed wing STC’s demand auto gas with no or minimal ethanol to avoid amongst other things vapourlock. Would this be the same for the 44 or could you use regular or super unleaded from gas station?
Sorry for thread drift but worth knowing.

[JimEli]

Robinson automotive gasoline approvals: Use of automotive gasoline is approved by the FAA and by EASA by STCs:
Robinson R22 HP, Alpha, Beta, Beta II, Mariner, Robinson R44 Astro, Clipper, Raven I. The R44 also is approved for UL91 fuel. For Robinson products, the minimum octane is 91 (RON + MON/2). All fuels must meet ASTM Specification D-439 for leaded fuel or D-4814 for unleaded. Fuel containing alcohol is not approved, nor is E-85 fuel at this time. EUROPE: EN228 was found to be substantially similar to D-4814. A great many STCs have been sold in every country in Europe and now increasingly in Eastern Europe.


The AS-350B2 allows the use of automotive gasoline as a replacement fuel with the following restrictions:
1. The use of gasoline is limited to 25 hours maximum between engine overhauls.
2. Requires adding 2% mineral lubricating oil if possible.
3. Maximum pressure altitude of 1500 ft and fuel temperature 30°C.

[nomorehelosforme]

A quick search on Wikipedia confirms most of the above that Avgas and Mogas are fairly compatible But was there really a good reason to land where he did, I doubt it and guess it was probably a stunt especially when you look at the take off and subsequent 180 turn.... probably a you tuber looking for ratings....

[megan]

Only for a desperate reason, auto diesel has a lot more wax still in it than Avtur does. Can clog things upDesperate reasons? Perhaps, but it is an approved fuel in some applications AC, cropdusters for example, comes with a temperature limit to avoid the gumming problem. Have heard of it used in the early days in Oz in French helos, don't know the legality in those days, from memory I think the story was it was approved by the manufacturer.

https://www.casa.gov.au/file/78736/download?token=QoRwuv96

[ShyTorque]

Helicopters have flight manuals The only reliable answer is to comply with it.

[skadi]

I do wonder if you can fly a turbine on auto diesel.

Some do:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2624904804395101&id=1412547618964165

skadi

[Fareastdriver]

The Turmo 3/C series gas turbines in the 330 Puma started off in life as motive power for French High Speed railway trains. They could run on anything as long as it was liquid. One can of engine oil per drum of Avgas would lubricate the pumps.

[meleagertoo]

I suspect that the shock horror reaction was more to do with the unexpected event of a helicopter (a "private" one to boot!!) filling up at a pertrol station rather than a public reaction to possible infrigerments of its Flight Manual.
And then flew away "as if nothing had happened". Nothing the onlookers weren't doing themselves, and then drove away as if 'nothing had happened'. You'd think he'd committed a murder, but then it is the Daily Wail again.
Hardly the first time this has happened, so why the fuss?

Even so, daft thing to do if you want to keep your licence.

[Hot and Hi]

A quick search on Wikipedia confirms most of the above that Avgas and Mogas are fairly compatible But was there really a good reason to land where he did, I doubt it and guess it was probably a stunt especially when you look at the take off and subsequent 180 turn.... probably a you tuber looking for ratings....
Ok, maybe he should have waited for 5 seconds in a stabilised hover at 3 feet, for a last check before climbing out.

But else, can’t find anything special about this take-of.

[Same again]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x540/93788377_10222158523337192_1998427469417283584_n_87e24973b1c 9496df4249559aa7560507c9c5df2.jpg

[ShyTorque]

The Turmo 3/C series gas turbines in the 330 Puma started off in life as motive power for French High Speed railway trains. They could run on anything as long as it was liquid. One can of engine oil per drum of Avgas would lubricate the pumps.

Strangely enough, the only "emergency fuel" not specified in the Puma HC1 manuals and FRCs was Diesel. I think the limit for anything else was 10 flying hours.

[Bksmithca]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x540/93788377_10222158523337192_1998427469417283584_n_87e24973b1c 9496df4249559aa7560507c9c5df2.jpg
Given the length of the fuel hose I'm thinking their station has been used before as I can't see a need for a fifty foot fuel hose at a normal service station.

[Torquetalk]

What are the odds of getting fuel without an ethanol content?

or perhaps the pilot is a regular because they have leaded 4*

[Twist & Shout]

Pretty common “in the old days”.
I can remember planning via roadhouses on Robinson ferry flights across Australia
We still had leaded fuel (“Super”) at the “servos”.
Handy, as I was often flying IFR (I Follow Roads) - just prior to GPS.
Old.

[megan]

Helicopters have flight manuals The only reliable answer is to comply with itJust checked the TCDS re deisel for the French Astazou and Artouste engines and the following are approved with associated temperature limits, so they were operating in accordance with the flight manual. All legal.

Automotive Diesel Oil DCEA/21 C
- VVF 800 DF2 TS.10.003 F54 Not to be used at OAT below -5° C
- VVF 800 DF1 Not to be used at OAT below - 15°C
- VVF 800 DFA F56 Not to be used at OAT below - 15°C
Gasoil O 7120 STM MIL-F-16884 DEF 2402 (47/0 DIESO) F75 Not to be used at OAT below -5°C
Gasoil 20 7120STM DEF 2402 (47/20 DIESO) F76 Not to be used at OAT below 0°C
Illuminating Oil DCEA/11C VV-K211 DEF 2403 F58 Not to be used at OAT below - 15°C

[megan]

Given the length of the fuel hose I'm thinking their station has been used before as I can't see a need for a fifty foot fuel hose at a normal service stationIt's a fuel station in the outback of Queensland where road trains would frequent servicing the cattle stations in the area, hence the long hose.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x721/rta_a1c2d1c7121c0bec719347d9d054953985239333.jpg

[John Eacott]

Here's the Queensland AW139 filling with diesel at Belyando Crossing, west of Moranbah; not all that uncommon given the vast distances in Queensland and the paucity of Jet A1 bowsers :cool: :ok:


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/qas_aw139_fuelling_1_653529ca6a069ef04c861fc01fc12fcac933f17 5.jpg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/qas_aw139_fuelling_2_a7ff0c2445150d16a232223fc7bb908248a2856 e.jpg


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/qas_aw139_fuelling_3_669bb1144a0a462d52705d604e3b7f98a2f1bce 8.jpg

www.facebook.com/qldambulanceservice/posts/imagine-being-the-attendant-at-this-fuel-station-and-your-next-customer-happens-/2407522879279425/

When I was flying Allouette IIs and 3s in Nigeria we could drop into almost any oil company pipe yard for a drum of diesel if we were 'caught short' for Jet A1 :p

[megan]

Diesel not on the FAA or EASA TCDS John, just an Oz thing?

[John Eacott]

Diesel not on the FAA or EASA TCDS John, just an Oz thing?

Short answer: I don’t know. But if you follow the Facebook link there is an answer to that question

Queensland Government Air (https://www.facebook.com/qgair/?comment_id=Y29tbWVudDoyNDA3NTIyODc5Mjc5NDI1XzI0MTExODM1MDU1 ODAwMjk%3D) Corey Dark (https://www.facebook.com/corey.dark.37?hc_location=ufi) Good afternoon Corey!
No this isn’t a PR stunt.😀 One of the great features of the AW139 Aircraft which is operated by QGAir is that they can run on Diesel fuel! This is especially helpful for our long distance Search and Rescue missions in the outback were Jet fuel can be hard to find. Thanks

So I would lay a farthing to Threadneedle Street that QG Air have appropriate approval from CASA.

[ShyTorque]

The problem with diesel is the possibility of low temperature fuel waxing in the airframe fuel filters; so even though the engine can safely burn it, it might not be approved.

It may be that an aircraft with heated fuel filters is safe, if not not allowed. Certainly the Puma HC1 didn't have heated fuel filters (so no diesel approval and FSII needed for Jet fuel), later Agusta helicopters do and it's allowed by the RFM.

[Old Farang]

Pretty common “in the old days”.
I can remember planning via roadhouses on Robinson ferry flights across Australia
We still had leaded fuel (“Super”) at the “servos”.
Handy, as I was often flying IFR (I Follow Roads) - just prior to GPS.
Old.
Yes, I have done the same thing. Stopped off at a Nullarbor roadhouse one time and told young Einstein that I wanted some Avgas. " We has auto gas and bottles ob camping gas, but does no 'ave Avgas"!
Actually they did and I had to buy a full drum. (wasn't a R22 or R44) The place had an airstrip at the back, but the boss said he did not hear me land. Lucky it was an airstrip as needed a bit of a run at it to get airborne!

[wrench1]

Diesel not on the FAA or EASA TCDS...
FYI: a number of limitations, like fuels/oils, etc., were moved from the TCDS to the RFM or MM on later aircraft/engines. The TCDS is developed by the producer (OEM) and only approved by the FAA/CAA so that also adds to a variance where that required information is found.

[megan]

So I would lay a farthing to Threadneedle Street that QG Air have appropriate approval from CASAThanks John, I wasn't suggesting it wasn't all above board, just wondered if diesel was a local approval. Thanks too wrench for your above post, but I thought the TCDS would have the latest info, the FAA TCDS for the 139 is up to revision 14 and dated .June 21, 2018, perhaps the FAA are catching up with revisions, who knows. The engine TCDS revision 5 dated November 15, 2017 calls for fuel conforming to P&W Spec. CPW 204, which is a wide cut kerosene.

[wrench1]

but I thought the TCDS would have the latest info,...
FWIW: It should but only for the info that was included/required to be on the TCDS initially. Plus a TCDS is not normally revised on a regular basis. In general (FAA), prior to AFM/RFMs becoming a certification requirement the TCDS, and its preceding Specifications, contained a lot more info as it was the "only" approved method to comply with documenting certain type design requirements. Once AFM/RFMs became mandatory the FAA allowed certain limitations to be listed in the AFM/RFM (or other approved source) instead of the TCDS. Add to the fact revising a AFM/RFM is much easier than revising a TCDS as it must go through an ACO process. So while one TCDS might show fuel limitations, another TCDS may not or simply have a note to see the AFM/RFM/MM/SB for the fuel limitations. For example, I believe in a RR 250 C-20 TCDS it refers the fuel limitations to the MM, yet in a Bell 206B TCDS it references the actual fuel specifications. In some cases like P&WC, there are Service Bulletins that provide additional fuel limitations.

[megan]

Thanks wrench, sure gets complicated, every day is a learning day. :ok:

[JimEli]

The TCDS scheme is archaic, confusing and riddled with errors to the point of uselessness for anybody other than an entrenched bureaucrat. The 737MAX fiasco and it's tortured sheet proves that (A16WE, revision 65).

[megan]

Unfortunately it's the only source of information somebody has who doesn't possess a flight manual.

[wrench1]

The TCDS scheme is archaic, confusing and riddled with errors to the point of uselessness for anybody other than an entrenched bureaucrat. The 737MAX fiasco and it's tortured sheet proves that (A16WE, revision 65).
FWIW: have no clue in using a TCDS on a 737, but have used them on a semi-regular basis over the years on GA rotor/fixed wing aircraft for the issue/reissue of AWC/CoAs, compliance of conformity checks, etc. While I'm about as far away as you can get from an "entrenched bureaucrat," I would hate to see what type of document you would prefer to use for these regular certificate issuances/checks considering a TCDS is but a "sliver" of the aircraft certification documentation process.

[Ascend Charlie]

The problem with diesel is the possibility of low temperature fuel waxing in the airframe fuel filters;

Pretty rare to need such things in the middle of the GAFA* where it is mostly darn hot.





*Great Australian F*** All, there is nuffin' out there.

[JimEli]

FWIW: have no clue in using a TCDS on a 737, but have used them on a semi-regular basis over the years on GA rotor/fixed wing aircraft for the issue/reissue of AWC/CoAs, compliance of conformity checks, etc. While I'm about as far away as you can get from an "entrenched bureaucrat," I would hate to see what type of document you would prefer to use for these regular certificate issuances/checks considering a TCDS is but a "sliver" of the aircraft certification documentation process.For starters, the 737 TCDS covers 14 series, the latest variants bearing no resemblance to the original. Bringing it closer to home, the TCDS for the AS-350 (H9EU) encompasses 10 aircraft, including the EC-130 variant. My quick, cursory glance of the B3 type section lists maximum weights, rotor speeds, and T4 limits all of which are different in the RFM. Very little is correct. The system is badly broken.

[megan]

Pretty rare to need such things in the middle of the GAFA* where it is mostly darn hotThat's after the sun comes up a bit and you've already scraped the ice off during the pre flight AC. ;)