Can we have a new forum please

[MasterGreen]

Danny,
This board is going down the toilet - slow or fast flush - your choice.

Every thread is now being hijacked by wannabees and Nintendo 'pilots' and all the associated armchair idiots.

Can we get a R&N that is PW protected on receipt of a valid PPL ( I am being generous - I would prefer CPL/IR) or better licence number (as per the company fora).

I for one am not at all comfortable about sharing my serious thoughts on R&N with all these "people" about. Just an idea - maybe we want it this way. But I suspect it was better in the past ....

MG

[zippyz]

I posted this in support of Capt PPRuNe in a recent thread after yet another newbie dweeb with no professional aviation licence or experience yet again posted ignorant and demeaning BS about a crew that generously decided to let him ride the jumpseat. I have always welcomed people on the JS but in light of these sorts of posts I will reconsider in future. Not only that but we contsantly seem to have to justify ourselves to wannabees and FS2000 stick jerking ******s. Surely we are tired of this, PPRuNe should return to what it formerly was..a forum for PROFESSIONAL PILOTS In the early days of the PPRuNe BB I nearly lost my job because some fool abused the privelege of anonymity afforded us by Dan and his teams hard work and posted libellous and slanderous commenst that were attributed to me. We are a patient bunch but I for one am tired of answering the questions of fools. So lets us have our forum back, restrict posting priveleges to only those who can prove they have a Professional Licence, allow access for others to read the posts and if we choose to list an email then perhaps we will answer a polite and discreet enquiry. Dan Please consider this proposal carefully, rightly so you are Judge, Jury and Executioner and dare I say it, rightly so! Long may you reign :D

This was posted 13th August 2002 09:19 and I make no apology for the hardline stance
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Make and example of him! Stone him and all his kin! Let there be BLOOD!
Dan!
Screw this B*****Ds hide to the wall beside that other fools' where it can be seen as an example to all and sundry of the ignorant masses who seem to populate these pages today.

I have been PPRuNing a long time and I can only say that I truly regret that these worthless fools are permitted any access to PPRuNe at all. I strongly urge the limitation of posting priveleges to only those who can prove their status as Professional Pilots... Let the wannabees and dweebs have their own forums or go elsewhere, but give us somewhere for us please Dan, a place to share our R&N in private. Let them stay behind their groundbound desks and spend their miserable groundbound lives wishing for a glimpse of the clouds and the sun the way we see them every day. It is through the uninformed and ignorant opinions of the likes of these that we find ourselves in our current industrial and professional straits. Let them know and regret that they will never ever comprehend even the tiniest part of what we do let alone achieve the standards required of us every minute of our working lives.

Hard line I may be, but also very tired of the denigration and dimuntion of one of last bastions of the true artisan. We are a select few and have proved our worth day in, day out in all weathers and climates all over the world. I abhor the state of our profession and it is only fools like these that make it so. Let us demand and receive the respect we deserve by dint of the long hard road each and every professional aviator takes to get where he/she is and the risks, duress and stress that is part of our daily lives as we perform the act of pilotage!

Brother Pilots let us reclaim what is ours.
We are different and apart and long may we remain so!

Rant filter off and soapbox stored safely away till next required.

[Pehr Hallberg]

I am not a professional pilot and I am not what you call a wannabee or Nintendo pilot. But I am astonished to read the post of zippyz. Reading this you get the impression that if you are a pilot then you are some kind of superman raised above the rest of humankind.

I cannot imagine that this is the mindset of the majority of the pilots. Yes you should be proud of your profession -- I am of mine (Software development). But I don't see myself as some kind of superman.

In your daily work zippyz, with all the different computers in your aircraft, you rely heavily on the professionalism of my colleagues.

[FOUR REDS]

I second these motions!!!!! I mean the first 2 posts only....

It is for these very reasons that my posts to this forum are few.

We must also remember that not all pro-pilots have access to the company forums, or indeed might have moved on thereby being removed from these. In any case a General Purpose R&N forum, suitably p/w protected, might be the way forward.
Another admin nightmare for Danny though.

I'll stick by you, Danny, whatever you decide.

............Per Ardua ad Job Centre...............

:p

[Lan Ding Gere]

From nearly 53,000 members, is this all the support that can be given by fellow Pilots.

Come on, let's drum up some support !!!

[HotDog]

I'm inclined to agree with you. Have you seen the latest post (0538/14/08) on China Airlines B747 crash?:rolleyes:

[Nightrider]

I don't see why we should have PPRuNe completely locked. There have been posts from non-aviation members which I loved to see, read opinions etc.
If there is interference, just work the professional way and ignore them. Professional pilots here on PPRuNe react on these hijackings and this leads to the widely off-topic arguments.
The procedure is simple, just stay quiet on any non-related or childish reply. (Hard hat required now...)

[MasterGreen]

Thank you 4 Reds. And you highlight a point I missed on my initial post.

Most important topics are cross cultural and trans company. This could be a better place where we could talk pilot to pilot without fear of misinterpretation of abbreviation and jargon or trepidation of uninformed ears (and tongues) wagging in the wind.

Even Bill Buffer's elegant and informative "BlueCoat" is plagued by "silly questions" at times nowadays. Sure there is a place for these things and we, as "professionals" have a public duty (perhaps) to carry a public face for these issues.

However it would be nice (in the true sense of the word) to have a relatively private place were we could could sound off sensibly and accountably (because the former begets the latter) on matters that concern our profession and industry.

Because I would never presume to offer the Chief problems, only solutions : How can this be policed?

Well here are some ideas, maybe not total solutions though ....

1. It cannot be anonymous. Real names only and all employment / licence / rating details in the open - in the "who" box.

2. These must be verified by a "referee" from each major airline / group.

3. Membership by invitation only after an email vetting through the "referees" to Chief Woobah (Hi Danny).

4. Since there is no such thing as total security on the Internet - anything you post must be assumed to maybe public and as such should be nothing you wouldn't say in the same circumstances. Danny is the wizz on this but I would assume that no real protection can be assured even from a locked and PW protected server. However one would hopefully be protected from "idiots" and "wannabee" comments, even if exposed to real world censure with your real name on the header; should the site's protection be broken. (Although I doubt that my MasterGreen moniker would protect me very much if someone really wanted to break it.)

I guess I am handing Danny a poison chalace here. Lots of work and heartache. However I really feel that Pprune must accend back to its' roots, with the emphasis on the "P" or it will descend to just another board....

That the other forii must continue is a given, just give me a place to privately sound off to my peers in a language and tone that will be understood and not misconstrued. I will happily share my real world details for this boon and be accountable for my opinions. This is a small price to pay I feel. Those who do not share this ideal are perhaps welcome not to play...

Quite a few cents worth ....

MG

[Shadowpurser]

So what are you saying? That other people in the airline industry don't have a contribution to make?

Should the CC forum be locked only to those who work the other side of the door?

Should the ATC forum only be open to people who work in the tower?

Come on guys all parts of the airline comunnity all over the world have valid points to write on this board. I for one since I have been a member have had some great debates and discussions and do not believe that my contribution is not valid. Ok you may get the odd person with no idea what's going on post now and again but it's not very common. A topic that may appear in R&N may be relevant to a whole host of different areas in the aviation industry and so would benefit from input from ALL of those areas.

Surely ther idea of this board is it's a place where we can ALL contact and discuss the situations and events in the airline industry.

PPRuNe may have started as a board just for pilots but if you at the different forums you'll see that it's become a lot more than this. Pilots have their own locked company forums where people like me are not able to post - and fair enough!! But I've just ordered $60 worth of enhancements to my name on this board to show my support for this great corner of the web. If more locked forums start appearing I for one would not be happy - as I don't see many others spending their hard earned cash supporting this board.

P.S. LOOK OUT FOR MY NEW ICON AND FANCY COLOURED WRITING - NO MORE "JUST ANOTHER NUMBER"!!!!

[Konkordski]

What next?

Ban commercial pilots from the military forum because they don't have experience in the armed forces?

Ban fixed-wing pilots from the Rotorheads forum because they don't have a single hour on a helicopter?

What about the air transport industry personnel who don't have a CPL (or maybe even a PPL) but who possess invaluable knowledge about the airline industry which directly affects you?

You might not like certain elements of the media, but some of the professional publications do a pretty good job of knowing more about what's going on in your company than you do. Do the counting yourself -- I have -- around 60% of Rumours and News threads originate from a media item which is freely cut and pasted here. Most of them, thank heavens, develop into sensible mature discussions.

[Wig Wag]

I remember PPRUNE in the very early days when it was completely unmoderated. That was quite untenable as identifiable line pilots were getting slagged off for incidents on the line - it simply had to stop to prevent individual employment being compromised.

A restricted forum would lose its impact and rapidly become uninteresting. I don't know how you stop the rubbish postings. It seems to me that one of the themes of PPRUNE is competing egos. This occurs in two forms.

1. Professional pilots scoring points over issues.

2. People pretending to be pilots for kicks.

Now, as regards the latter, the travelling public are well informed these days about airline operations. Up to a point pretend pilots will get away with it and this can dilute and confuse a good debate. The only way I can see that you can stop this would be for a valid licence number to be an esential criteria when registering. Imagine trying to administrate that!

I think we are stuck with the problem and must rely on the moderators to do their good work.

This forum must be public and anonymous to allow that essential free speech on those really tricky issues that companies have never, ever wanted to come to light.

[TomPierce]

A few points here.

One. I don't think Danny would lay aside a forum for ONLY professional pilots. He has pretty strong views on the subject. I hope he does anyway.

Two. If such a forum were considered who do you think will do all the 'paperwork' in monitoring who is eligble and who is not? The number of mods on this site number over 70. A massive amount of work is done by these and for the sake of a pro forum only I think it will fall flat.

Three. What about the wannabes? They are, whether you like or not, a very important part of PPRuNe. They rely on PPRuNe for a great deal of info and they rely on you Professionals to give them help and comfort while they try to climb the ladder.

Four. How did you climb the ladder? Were you not in fact ALL wannabes once? And as MasterGreen chooses to call them idiots or wannabes I assume he is self centred enough to say he never was. Fact, says he was. I was, and all of you were. You cannot escape from it, it was with us all.

Finally. PPRuNe has a record of helping wannabes. It has a fund which helped 5 cadets get there rating and training with Astraeus this year. All five are about to complete their line training and will then be fully rated on the B737. What about them? Are they idiots? They were certainly wannabes. Don't you reckon that is worth thinking about? Tell you something else, when those guys get to see this thread you can expect flak - big time.

The PPRuNe fund is run to assist wannabes. Wannabes also need to know the state of play in the industry, and they can, hopefully, get that from some of us.

No good hiding your bushel guys. You have a duty to encourage young blood as others encouraged you. If you don't help them or if you ignore them and treat them as idiots and say so, all you are doing is giving the wider public, and your peers, the distinct impression that you are better than the rest when you are in fact equal. Indeed, none of you are better than I am, though you may have more time, more experience (perhaps) but you obviously don't have the willingness to help the young uns.

It is true that some make idiotic posts. But then so do some Professional Pilots! It is also true that some make many gasp in exasperation. But then so do some Proefessional Pilots.

I suggest that re-evaluate your attitude and try to be a little more giving, rather than trying to make a fortress out of nothing.

[zippyz]

There are many valid points expressed by both sides here and I sympathise with the non-professional pilots and others. I do not suggest banning this group from PPRuNe in toto, just from a forum dedicated to us who aviate for a living. I believe we have a right to discuss issues privately and amongst peers without input from anyone else.

PPRuNe has an important role to play in aviation and it does so very well.

I for one will continue to stand on the side of a forum solely for the use of professional pilts and no others.

[Shawny1]

The whole forum has gone to the dogs and only worth a cursory glance now. PPRUNE should be PPRUNE, too many clowns now with highly self opinionated views on everything. Just gets us all a bad name.

[Konkordski]

Sorry Zippyz, I still disagree.

By its nature the job of a professional pilot involves interaction with other non-pilot people (air traffic control, ground staff, engineers, cabin crew, passengers, the list goes on and on...).

Just my opinion but I suspect that any discussion which wouldn't benefit from input from other professionals in the air transport industry would be hardly worth starting, let alone justify establishing a separate forum.

Knowledge about flight in all its aspects isn't restricted to those who fly for a living.

----------------------------------

"Every man is, in some way, my superior -- and in that I learn from him."

[PPRuNe Towers]

Let's just say that Danny and I have an incredibly high regard for every single word MasterGreen has ever placed on this site.

Now, for the sake of argument, let's say we also go along with his line of thinking 100%. Let's ignore his statement regarding the superb Bluecoat site where he, I and all who join have to write a resume for entry let alone provide the details many of you are suggesting.

PPRuNe works due to the efforts of our moderators - they offload us so we can actually keep the core of the site working. PPRuNe consumes more than 200 gigabytes of bandwidth per month and has done so for the last year and a half. The IT professionals who regularly visit can confirm that this is an extremely hefty throughput - one which would, in a business, have a significant number of full time staff devoted to it.

However, the site is actually run by 3 people in their spare time while still earning a living elsewhere. We've looked at this time and time again. Even if we didn't believe that non aviation pros could provide worthwhile comments, questions and experience the administative overheads would destroy the site. I'm not talking of money here but simply time.

Our backlog of work and improvements averages months at any time due to the short term workload administering memberships and problems readers have. We make the most appalling crewing and rostering departments seem like crack fueled dervishes of energy and committment:D

It would take less than 4 minutes to set up the forum some of you want and the rest of our airline careers to gain the time to earn the money allowing us to administer the membership work. More than 60% of PPRuNers are full time aviation professionals - please let us know exactly how you suggest we wade through and verify 20,000 plus applications. Actually - let's say 5,000 just for fun.

Hmmm, well I'm knackered this morning - you probably are as well so lets issue this challenge. Other than FAA licence holders who are on a database let's have your ideas on positively verifying a single application form submitted to us.

We're genuinely sorry PPRuNe isn't the place you remember - but then again it probably never was......

[Vox]

My Company forum is dull, it only gets a few posts when something happens like the annual pay talks or we re-fleet.

The BALPA company forum has real name posters only and it’s informative, relevant and politely dull.

You can easily ignore the Chemtrailer type idiot who sees conspiracy in everything, but the occasional gem that sometimes surfaces makes this site worth coming back to again and again.

Just in case I’m deemed not worthy of posting privileges, I’d like to say I’ve been flying since 1981 and I do it professionally.(Some would say that doesn’t mean I do it well ;) )

[DesignerChappie]

I've lurked around PPRuNe for a few years on and off, but only registered a few weeks ago. I now find that I'am about to be banned, because I'm not a pilot!

I'm sorry that the 27 years I've spent in the aircraft industry does'nt give me the right to ask questions or express opinions that might provoke debate or comment from the guys up front. But remember you may now how to fly those big aluminium flasks, but there are a lot of people involved to get you to the holding point at the end of the runway, who may know more about the topic being discussed than you, or take a less jaundiced view, that makes us all think.

I've seen postings on this group from people who should know better, slinging mud at aircraft, operators, manufacturers etc. Yes it's annoying, frustrating, but most of it is 'flamebait' designed to provoke knee jerk reactions. Perhaps that's what this thread is designed to do after all.

I am more than happy to provide a copy of my CV and certificates if required, but don't drop me or anybody else because we cant provide a current PPL or ATPL, that surely is the job of the overworked moderator.


0.02 Euros supplied

[ive348]

I think this is another prime example of the attitude some pilots seem to have towards other people in the aviation field. Do I have to remind you (again) that we can only make this work together? Yes, I wouldn't have a job if not for you guys flying your airplanes. But you're not going anywhere, unless I say you are cleared to do so! I'm not trying to sound disrespectfull, but think about it.
Yes, there have been postings by individuals that shouldn't be here. Who have only one goal and that is to provoke a reaction. Maybe they should be removed. But in the end, this is an open forum, and it is up to you to react to a post, or to ignore it. To think the solution is a forum exclusively for pilots is a bit overdone. One of the great things about this forum, is the interaction beween pilots and others. Now that the chances of getting on the jumpseat are rapidly fading, it is one of the last possibilies for us ATCO's to get in touch with you.

[Thomas Cook Airlines]

This is a forum about the airline industry.
As long as the posts aren't stupid and closed minded, (and, it's not just the FS2000 pilots) why can't this forum be more friendly towards say airline passengers, airline wannabees and just people that like airlines, like www.airlinecrew.net, that's for crew, but, it's a nice open-minded forum.
I am only cabin-crew, but, i think that everyone should be included.

[pancho]

I refer to Thomas Cook Airlines, " I am only Cabin Crew", what a sad statement this is. In my career as a Professional Aviator "only Cabin Crew" were an essential part of my team. So, please TCA, dont put yourself down because of the comments of a few pilots lost in the depths of their own egos.

[Deeko01]

I must say I am astonished by the people demanding something should be done, I have a better idea how bout we charge for use of PPRune and let these guys get some return for all there hard work time and effort they have put in over the years.

I say to the powers of prune that I love this site and wouldnt be without it as it is so informative and would suggest to the people who aint happy with the site either be willing to pay for it or go look at another BB?? its your choice YOU DECIDE!!

:mad: :mad:

[gofer]

I love flying, and yet I also hate spending roughly 800 hours a year as SLF, as you, tongue in something, refer to those of us who end up causing your wages to able to be paid.

My grandfather, a doctor, joind the RAF in the first months of its creation and stayed a lifetime. My father, an areonautical engineer, was in the Polish Airforce and then the RAF for much of the character forming years of his life. My godfather was a Polish and RAF fighter pilot who was one of the few of his friends to survive WWII, and flew professionally till the year he died @ 75. My uncle was a commercial pilot for 30+ years, My daughter is a Senior F/A flying for 10years+, My son-in-law is an F/O with only around 2000 hours so far.

Having been posted abroad with a little free time at odd hours and a broadband PC, I found when surfing around, to my delight, PPRuNe. Some of you have been kind enough to invite me into your mobile offices, and we've seen some lovely Aurora B's and comets and countryside thanks to you. Some of you have become well respected friends. Some of the opinions I rate very highly, and for some of you I probably do manage to write some drivel also, at least in your eyes (not sure if being sober helps or not).

And you want to condemn me to not play - shame on you !

I'm also a computer geek and can confirm the 'PPRuNe Towers' comments. So what is the solution ???? - a fee sometimes can keep the riff-raff out - and yes I have to agree with some of your previous comments that there are some things that if not posted would improve the forum. But some of that was posted by 'Professional pilots'; so there is obviously no logic or rule as to who has common sense and stupidity.

Now also remember Danny and the guys do this out of the kindness of their hearts and you get it for free and then you b*tch. Nobody said your have to PPRuNe, there are many other sites, some are even OK, none are this good, even though it has changed and is permanently changing - So my suggestion would be -- how's about having a 'writing fee' ?

You pay the fee - you can write, don't pay - can't write !

Oh yes, who is going to do the added admin, well it could help to pay for staff, or it could be part of the rules that those who want to play but not pay, have to volonteer for that bl**dy Admin.

Danny you can count me in for both a reasonable fee and some admin, if that is your final decision - and thanks for a really great forum, whatever some say.

[Wino]

Mastergreen

2 such places already exist.

They are both compuserve forums. One is Avsig.com which was the grandfather of this place and still exists. It is by name only, no handles etc and is still a good site, but they charged a fee (very small 10 dollars or so a year) and it drove traffic way down. INfact that is the main reason I came over here.

The other place is for Airline pilots only and is also within the compuserve orbit, but it has declined in favor of ALPA's in house message board. There is no fee for this board, you must simply prove you work for an airlne (someone will look up your employee number etc and verify it) Ask for the name on AVSIG and they will point you (you can do it from the free section of AVSIG) to the link as I don't have it on this machine but its something like Go.Compuserve.fltcrew.com.

Cheers
Wino

[Lodestar]

Hi there,


I believe that there actually is a need for a forum where only 'professional' pilots would be allowed.

Why could this not be allowed under a form like the company related topics on PprUne, based on a licence copy. That way PPrUne could remain existant in its actual form hereby providing a forum for pro-pilots to discuss mathers that are rather 'touchy' , too technical etc.....

It is true that now we see a lot of B*****T here that can be very harmfull as well.

I am pro a forum like that.....!

But lets not forget the aviation enthousiasts here who deserve as well to receive realy valuable opinions....

Thanks!

[Arkroyal]

Well, Lodestar, and others, the world's your oyster. You want such a thing, go set it up.

The very fact that some folk spout nonsense here, and are either ignored, or put right, is all part of the colour of the site.

Leave it alone, Danny.

[con-pilot]

Ok, my two cents (and that’s all my opinion is worth trust me).

I have stated my view many times in different forums and have not changed my views. And I’m sure to Danny’s great relief I am not going to restate them at this time. But to say don’t change nothing!

As for the ‘professional pilots only’ crowd; start your own web-site.

[Sandy_Charmer]

My vote is AGAINST restricting PPRuNe to flyers only.

I agree with MasterGreen and FOUR REDS that there are many crazy, uninformed and xenophobic comments made by both flyers and non-flyers on this board. I guess it’s the price paid of success when sites like these become popular for all the right reasons but inevitably attract many of the wrong people to pass their comment. But at the end of the day they’re only passing comments, which can be ignored.

I must admit I am very new to the board and being ‘just another analyst!’ I wouldn’t know what PPRuNe used to be like in the early days. But having worked for one of the big three engine manufactures and now working with one of the big two airframers I feel I can learn a lot from PPRune as well as contribute.

Remember most of us are fortunate enough to live in societies where freedom of speech still does exist.

Let’s keep PPRuNe accessible!
:cool:

[GlueBall]

A password protected "professionals only" site would be lacking in entertainment value. Besides, anyone who is at least semi literate can easily separate gobbledegook from Shakespeare.
:p

[747FOCAL]

After reading all of the posts from this thread I have only one question:

Do the majority of pilots that are members of this forum truly feel that only certified pilots bring merit and valuable insight into the topics discussed on PPRUNE?

I am not a certified pilot. I am an engineer. When I am designing a product or am solving a problem I reach out to affected individuals(ie. pilots, mechanics, ground handlers). I have also used information gained from this forum. When I take on a project my hope is that the end result will benefit the avaition world, even if only on a small level.

I have found that the only way to accomplish the expected results is to gain insight from those that touch it and that means everybody. Yes, you get the occasional idiot. How hard is it to ignore this person?

It used to be that when you had 11 people sitting around a table talking there would always be the one idiot that keeps blurting out eroneous and worthless banter. The 10 smart ones would let him say his piece and then continue on without even acknowledging it. Nowdays, you got 10 idiots and one smart person. ;)

I guess what I am trying to say is that we around here at PPRUNE know who the smart ones are and as aviation professionals should be smart enough to spot an idiot and disregard his posts without getting wound up about it.

Danny and the rest have enough to do and we should be thankful that they do that. :)

[bodstrup]

Things are not always what they appear to be.

One of the most criticised persons recently was Seriph (in the Mid-Air thread). He was told he was a FS2000 pilot etc - but then the moderator intervened and informed that he was acutally a line captain..

One easy way to limit access would be to require a check-mark in an ATPL/CPL box in the registration form.

Most of us 'armchair idiots' - would never falsely state that we had a license.

A few would slip through but 90+ % of the non pilots would stay away.

Such an approach would require no screening or maintenance

I have posted a few comments/questions too many and understand the problem.

Regards
Michael

[interestedparty]

As a new member I have taken particular regard to the warning comments about people taking reciprocal positions to those they actually hold & etc, which is displayed at the end of the Forum listing page.
Be that as it may, I am surprised at the level of apparently immoderate comment I find in the forums on the site.
Aviation is a stressy business, with a similar work profile to many other professionals' lives. Long irregular hours, periods of intense activity, followed by periods of relative calm, managements who fail to comprehend the pressures a professional person feels him or herself under, & etc.
However I suspect that aviation has the unique benefit of strong regulation, which in the hands of most administrations at least, forms some sort of restraining hand.
Without exception the air-transport professionals I know are an exceptionally level-headed, calm, and resourceful group.
I suspect that some users confuse the need for a romper-room with the orginal intention of the site. Letting off steam is best kept for the sports' field, bar, or bedroom.
Please to try to keep the forums open to all, flyguys or no, to the benefit of the general public of whom you are indeed part.

[Notso Fantastic]

I have found it extremely disappointing to see the many contributions made to this forum by what I consider to be idiots masquerading as 'Professional Pilots' and advocating opinions that really shouldn't be made here. They carry the same weight as Professional Pilot opinions. Look at the title of the Forum! Recently, we have had an engineer advocating early retirement of pilots to give 'the younger ones a chance', non qualified people firing off 'shoot from the hip' opinions such as Crash-and Burn, people with weird opinions like Bus429 ('the Pilot's friend!'-who most decidedly is not), our long recent travails with that laughing stock of humanity- 'the Guvnor'. I would say it would be nice to know whose voice counted. Thank heavens we have some very tightly policed private forums- it is the only way to keep loudmouth idiots away from some areas. Ask people to respect HOW to use Pprune and these are the self-same people who abuse you for pointing out they are in the wrong forum.

I would not dream of going into other professional forum areas and loudly proclaiming my opinions on the employment practices of engineers, architects or accountants, but why do so many ignoramuses insist on coming here and passing opinions on pilot retirement and aircraft accidents and everything else to do with aviation? Reasonable discussion is very acceptable- it is only the loudmouth, uninformed opinion broadcasters who are a right PITA!

[Chalky]

Personally I don't think it matters whether a member has a licence or not, provided that they have an interest in aviation, a reasoned argument to put forward and aren't talking out of their a**e.

How about having a small aviation-orientated questionnaire inserted into the registration process? This might sieve out the more ignorant journo's and the complete Wallys, though sadly 411A and his ilk would probably still get through.

Chalky

[Sir Kitt Braker]

There's only one thing wrong with this forum - that half the contributors take themselves, their postings and this forum far too seriously!

This is not an OFFICIAL SITE, it's not the CAA, no great pronouncements on aviation, aeroplanes or how to fly come through here!

This is meant to be a fun place to read and post, to start pleasantly mischievous rumours, to have the odd dig at our bosses and our customers and ourselves. This last item is, of course, beyond the ability of most of us who seem to think that sainthood and deific status in all matters is bestowed on us at the same time as our wings.

This only ever happened in the case of one pilot that I know - but that's enough about me.....

[interestedparty]

I'd agree with our friend from St. Kitts - (nice island, and a long runway too).
The problem is the dividing line between jokiness and immoderation.............
There should be a light-hearted way of putting over hard facts; that's the essence of a civilised discussion.

[daywalker]

Well, one thing for sure is that I am no pilot ;)

I do however enjoy reading all your posts & find it easy to ignore the stupid/ignorant posts, do you all find it so hard to ignore such posts? It's an easy option.

[Captain Airclues]

Prior to 9/11, one of the pleasures of the job was meeting the rich variety of people who used to visit the flight deck. Some were just curious, but some, although not pilots, had a keen interest in aviation. I learned a great deal from the engineers, ATCOs and ground staff who used to sit and chat about their jobs. The most satisfying were the wannabes, as their enthusiasm was infectious, and I never tired of their questions.
Occationally we would get the 'Walter Mitty' character who felt that he had to lie about his qualifications to impress us. It would have been so easy to expose them, but what would that have achieved? (after all he was helping to pay my salary). I would just listen politely to his exploits and then wish him well as he went on his way.
Sadly, but quite rightly, those days are no more. However we have a substitute in these forums where we can talk with people from all walks of life about the profession that we love. I regularly visit all of the forums, including wannabes and SLF, and am constantly learning something new from all of them.
The same type of 'Walter Mitty' who used to visit the flight deck also visits these forums. Unless they are insulting or critical, as was the case recently, then I suggest that we just skip on to the next post and ignore them.
Believe it or not, it is possible to have a successful career in aviation without ever being rude, insulting or critical.
Just as the SLF have to trust the captain and crew to fly the aircraft safely, I think that we must trust Capt PPRuNe and his team to run this website.
Keep up the good work sir, and please don't change it.

Airclues

[18-Wheeler]

All this is why, on the motoring forums I frequent, I started my own forum that was invitation-only.
I added some HTML coding so the search engines would ignore it, so the invited people could post whatever they liked and not have to worry about the w.ankers butting in.

[arcniz]

The cockpit is one of few places in life where stupidity, ignorance, maliciousness and pettiness have little standing. Where skill, focus, and realism are prized above all.

It is a place where you can be awed to tears or frightened to the depths of your soul without a single commemorative word being spoken.

Sitting up front makes you master of the universe for yourself and the others aboard, yet it is also a place of terrible personal insecurity - where everything from blood-sugar to macroeconomics and many, many things inbetween can threaten your career, family life, and peace of mind. For these, more than the flying part, courage is as necessary as air.

When most in your element you mainly work in personal isolation, connected to others -near and far - by wires and radio and rules and machines that broach little comment or open discussion.

Small wonder that the proud few who participate in this would like to share a private island of communication with their fellows, free from the noise of the bleachers, on which to speak about things otherwise unsaid.

Possibly it is unwise to do this in public, or in any medium where everything said is going to be recorded and remembered forever. Perhaps better at a noisy place of liquid refreshment, in the company of known friends...


On the other hand,

Being able to do what you do depends - each time the sun rises - on the collaboration and cooperation and the actual good will of hundreds of thousands of others who keep the machinery of aviation oiled, who sell the tickets, who ride along, who sweep the ground and sky to clear a safe path ahead of you.

Collectively, those many outside the cockpit may have more say in your future than the few inside. Even people far away in time and social function - politicians, engineers, reedy-voiced teenagers at their desks - will interact together to determine the future of your company, your job, and thus your life in aviation.

There may be more information than you would like in the things you don't want to hear. The thump-thump noises coming from people with contrary or clearly wrong views are information that should not be casually ignored. Whether they are right or wrong, they are reaching an audience and influencing them in ways that will affect you - so better to listen, try to help with facts, and then argue a responsible POV of your own in the public forum. Mixed in among the frustrated accountants and still-quite-young enthusiasts might be an astronaut or a banker or a bicycle mechanic who could do you - and all of aviation - some good, if so inclined.


& Good For You, Danny et al - this is quite a thing you've created

[Wig Wag]

arcniz:-

That was one of the best posts I have read on PPRUNE.

[HercBird]

For those of you that continue to read this post, I aspire to start my PPL in the next few months. I also believe that I have the sky, flying, airplanes and all of the related subjects in my blood, maybe because I was almost born inside an airplane.

While I understand that some posts by people of my unprofessional standing within these forums are naive or stupid, and that this can be very annoying to the professionals, I would hate to see my access to this site removed. It wouldn't be, many of you will say, but the point is, if you can post to the "unprofessional" forums or the limited one, which one would you post to ?

It would be a loss of information, enjoyment and education for people like me. Granted, this forum is meant to mainly service you, but are we, the rest, that much of a hinderance ?

I spend most of my time in these forums reading and educating myself and in everyone of my limited amount of posts, I believe I have made an effort of explaining my unprofessional status. I have only posted asking for more information on something I am not aware off but would love to learn from a professional, or in very few occassions, to make the view of the "amateur" known.

So, for the summary, please do not judge all of us non-professionals by the posts of a select annoying few and take away this source of aviation life from us. The moderators do an excellent job of weeding out the provocative posts, and when a post is not worth the virtual space it occupies, you are professional enough to recognize and ignore.

:rolleyes: The non-professional's point of view... :rolleyes:

[Kiteflyer]

I wish I had never registered. Occasionally I feel an urgent desire to post on here although I do not professionally pilot anything. It would help my addiction if I was removed/banned/outcast from this site.

In fact it would be even better if you could stop me reading posts on here as well!

Some of the things the "Professional Pilots" say to each other scare me to death!

As I leave I must say Raw Data, BEagle and strangely enough 411A are the three I would most like to be in an aircraft with when it was 23,000 miles from the nearest pub and the wings fell off.

What a crew up front!!! and I bet we would all walk away from the rough landing.

[HouchinCable]

:) Not been on the site for a LONG time. Wow what a change, looks GREAT!:)

:o Anyway to the point.

:confused: The thread ‘Can we have a new forum please’ is precisely why I’ve not been back for so long. PPRuN is full of C—P from people I have no interest in hearing from.

If it were possible to canvas the opinion of only, Professional Pilots then you know as well as the rest of us that close to 100% would be in favour of having their own forum. This common knowledge alone should justify the setting up of a forum on the lines of the ‘Airline Specific Private Forums’ as soon as possible.

Why do you think the ‘Airline Specific Private Forums’ are so popular? It’s not just so they can bitch about the firm. A major factor is that they know they won’t have a screen full of posts from clowns that know nothing about the topic!

PPPP (Professional Pilot Private Pages)
:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Stampe]

Great idea I hardly ever post nowadays as I see a decline in the quality of the forum.To make it easy for the moderators suggest only those registered with the UK specific airline forums which are already in being can post.These forums have already been filtered so little extra work would be required.This site can then gain some of its credibilty back.

[AnsettStar]

Okay, I'm preparing to be told off big time for even daring to stick my "wannabee" head in here but I think I have a point.

Firstly, well said Tom. I totally agree. I concede that there are some posts and people on these forums that just tick me off no end.

Secondly, I have great respect for those of you who are fortunate enough to have such a fantastic opportunity to make a career out of doing something you love. I ocasionally post on these boards and since I'm not a rated pilot I guess I'd be a "wannabe".

My reasons for coming to these forums is precisely to get an idea of what the industry is like from those who actually work there.

Thirdly, I agree that the "proper" (and I use the term loosely) pilots should have their own private forum. However, don't exclude us just because we don't have a piece of paper making us licensed. I got enough crap from males about women aviators and don't really want to start on the license issue.

I don't want to start a big rant debate, but please don't write all of us off just because we're not CPL or ATPL......okay?

AnsettStar - not licensed but soon will be :)

[FOUR REDS]

Stampe,

But what about the guys/girls in-between jobs and kicked out of their Airline Forum. Also, do other pro pilots, like BizJet jockeys, not qualify.

For example, I am a jet captain, looking for another job, whilst in the meantime involved in an affiliated industry.

Admittedly your suggestions is a good basis to help Pprune Towers to get started. Then a system for adding those I mentioned above can be devised.

:o :o :o :o

[HouchinCable]

Stampe & FOUR REDS – I would propose it’s open to all “PP” that’s CPL and up regardless of employment state.

Electric Sky – Nothing is impossible! There are many ways of achieving this, if the will is there.

[norodnik]

If the dissenting pilots want their own forum, then go start one. The whole idea of a forum is to get a broad range of opinions, not all of them will necessarily be informed but thats the fun of it.

To have a forum just for pilots is all well and good but it will no doubt eventually lead to the same questions being asked as at this very time.

I only post a few times and have already been slagged off for being an "armchair idiot". I used to fly, was in the air force, my father spent his whole life in aviation. However, as I had to move on to other things its like I have no idea whatsoever.

So perhaps change the name to , Current Professional Pilots etc etc.

I enjoy reading these forums very much. Its one of the few places to communicate with those who know. Its very easy to ignore posts which have no substance but most of the time the PP's seem to have more fun slagging then examining the point raised.

Finally, I work in computing as well, and was a security consultant. Unless you have access to certain proprietary information and then want to invest a lot of time and money, it will be almost impossible to setup a airline agnostic forum just for PP's. Happy to offer advice on how to if you're interested.

[ADC]

Dear Capt. Houchin Cable

1. One of the basics of being a professional pilot might be the ability to spell " Professional"

2. Who do you think is going to do all the hard the work to check the "Professional" nature of people who want to use this forum of yours? The Admins at PPRuNe ? Do you think they have nothing better to do with their time? This site is what it is, an extrememly successful aviation forum, catering for a wide variety of interests and tastes within the aviation community, set up and run by professionals in their spare time !. It just about covers it's costs with advertising.


Please read some of the posts above. If you want to start your own website and run your own "Profesional Pilats Privit Foram", Go ahead.

We'll miss you

ADC

[teropa]

Well well ... How should I start ? Maybe some background information first.

This armchair pilot has had aviation as a VERY serious hobby for 14 years. I have been flying with my father in single-engine planes since he got his PPL, and subsequent CVFR, IR and CPL ratings. I have, how should I put it, a _lot_ of "unofficial" stick time in small planes, and am quite skilled in flying, say a 172.
But guess what? I don't have a PPL and couldn't afford one at the moment. Instead, I'll be getting my M.Sc in electrical engineering in one year, after which I will be applying for professional training programs to become a professional pilot.

I also happen to be a RC-plane fanatic, and love flying those little things. In fact, I had no trouble in learning to fly such a thing on my own, as opposed to how people _should_ do it.

Apart from these, I also LOVE flight simulators and "flying" with them. Yes, I use FS2002 daily (!), mostly with my beloved PIC767 addon which is a phenomenal package of "flying" put inside a 21" monitor (in my case). There are _MANY_ airline pilots in the simming world who will tell you that _that_ particular addon is as close as it gets...

So. Maybe my knowledge of real-life aviation is not enough, given I've only flown small planes, and not jets. Maybe my knowledge of airliner systems and such is minimal, given that I know the B767 type FMC and the rest of the aircraft systems like the back of my hand. I have only used like the past 10 years reading _everything_ I can get my hands on, that handles professional aviation. I am familiar with just about everything there is to know about professional flying (what happens in the front). I just recently had a chance to fly a LEVEL D MD-11 simulator, and had no problems in flying and landing the sim in IMC, although I have zero flight-training, let alone flight-time in the jet. I'm as enthusiastic as they come.

BUT...

I STILL don't understand the fact that _some_ of you professional aviators (or would you like to be called super-heros instead?) think that flying is something so very very special and "above anything else" that you think you can call other people IDIOTS, only because they don't have an ATPL in their pocket. I'd like to suggest a quick reality-check for those in question !

The moral of this post?

In today's world of free media and super highways of information available, many people know a lot about things that they do NOT professionally do. That doesn't make them all ignorant, however.
Flying is nothing mystical or something to get an egotrip from. Pilots are not gods. I think you should start to recognize the fact that it's a profession that can be disussed with "normal" people as well as the professionals themselves, just like any other profession...

I DO agree that some of the wannabees and armchair pilots (probably teenagers with nothing else to do) have voiced some stupid stuff in PPrune, but you should just ignore those kind of posts.

This is my honest opinion and I'm not disrespecting professional pilots in general, not at all! I intend to become one myself later in my life, but I do criticize those who get bothered by other people because their ego is so massive that it needs its own field to play in.

cheers,
Tj

[Desk Driver]

As a professional Desk Driver with 17 years in the business and not a Professional pilot I can see where your coming from. Nobody wants an Airlin***.not kind of forum where it's so out of control you don't see the same thread twice. I also agree that some people on here can half post some rubbish at times however the Mod's do a very good job here and most is weede out.

So before you decide, you need to consider the 2 following things.

1) If you become an elite bunch in your private forum then numbers outside would dwindle to such levels that PPRUNE would no longer be free. you may be willing to pay,but how much?

2) I and many others hear a lot of relevant information around our place of work that perhaps you don't. We also can have very informed opinions from a very different angle to yours. If you want to go into a private forum and compare each others equipment and companies because that's what you'll end up doing then fine I'll leave right now. We all have the ability to report malicous or irrelevant posts to the Mod's. Lets use that instead.

[lomapaseo]

I see we have another biased poll to lead to inaccurate answers.
The poll heading suggests that to participate in the poll you belong to a special grouping i.e. "As a profesional pilot....."

yet some of the questions state

"I am not a PP..........." yes/no

[Standard_Departure]

As an Air Traffic Controller, I would be saddened by my exclusion from these pages, I have gained plenty of insight from other aviation enthusiasts on this forum and also provided lots of information to pilot's (and others) who ask for it.

I vote NO !!

[BlueEagle]

So, some of you think you would like a "Pilots Only Forum" then?

Ever been to a pilots meeting? Obviously not. Pilots, by tradition, don't listen but Oh do they love to talk!

Is it not a bit sad that some of you find yourselves unable to distinguish between the various types of aviation interested, (at all levels), people, weigh what they have to say, apply your own intelligence and knowledge, ("take it whence it came"), and develop for yourself a picture?

Do you have to jump on every technical detail and stamp it to death whilst often missing the main thrust of a non-flyers argument?

As the privileged professionals of one of natures most loved pastimes should we not enjoy hearing from interested people from all walks of life and be pleased that, because of our cherished knowledge, we are able to discuss and enlighten?

Why should people assume that because they have come to the internet a great filter will have been applied and they will only read hard unchallenged fact?
The whole point of a forum is to collect and colate both knowledge and opinion from which we can all learn. If people who clearly have no knowledge are prepared to take the risk of making statements here on PPRuNe that can be shot down then obviously those statements will and one has to hope that such people will learn accordingly. Much of what people who do not share our professional position say is, in any event, good common sense that is well worth consideration.

As professionals we should be able to pick our way through the various patches of uncertainty and ignorance, persevere with fact and educated opinion and still maintain a balanced approach to any topic.

And, apart from all that, Danny has already said, many times, that the open forum is the way to go as it is education in all directions and that can only be to the common good.

We should never forget that PPRuNe is not the Authority speaking, it is not your manuals or SOP but it is all about education, information, and recreation, for all of us.

Time to move on.:)

[huw stunn]

The job I do here at Waterslide supports all you Nigel's, but I only infrequently get a chance to talk to any of you. Having access to PPRUNE at least gives me a flavour of some of your issues, and indeed wider industry issues outside the wacky world of BA.

If you would prefer that I knew nothing of your issues, then - go ahead, have your own forum so you can rant and rave to your pilot colleagues in supreme isolation, without the worry that any of us support guys know what is bothering you and heaven forbid either agree with you, or have a justifiable alternative view.

[teropa]

BlueEagle,

One word: Outstanding!

Tj

[Proceed As Cleared]

It appears to me, that certain protagonists, who are in favour of their own "playground", have been professional pilots from birth (never have been wannabes, never flown in GA).
A truly remarkable "career". :rolleyes:

It also seems as if, blinded by their self esteem to be one of the "elite", they do not consider it necessary to have a fruitful discussion about aviation related matters with such irrelevant professionals like engineers, hosties, ATCOs, and so on. :o

[BOAC]

Blue Eagle - 100%+ endorsement. As you say, time to move on. It is a bit like watching a TV programme and then complaining about it - if you don't like what you see, you don't have to read it.
PPrune is all the richer for the inputs from 'the rest' of our world.

[interestedparty]

Looks to me like a profession that can't decide whether it wants the pilots regarded similarly to master mariners, or to well paid bus drivers.
There is a subtle(!) difference in the public's perception of the two.
A degree of gravitas is no bad thing if you seek approbation of your professional role.
Immoderate comments, outlandish sentiments, and so on, do not sit easily with positions of responsibility and trust........

[rotated]

From the Illustrated Oxford Dictionary:

professional 1. of or belonging to or connected with a profession

pilot 1. person who operates the flying controls of an aircraft

rumor 1. general talk or hearsay of doubtful accuracy

network 1. an arrangement of intersecting horizontal and vertical lines, like the structure of a net

Perhaps it should be renamed "Forum For Only Those Who Fly Big Jets For a Major Airline", or

FFOTWFBJFMA

...not as nice, somehow :( .

[Capt PPRuNe]

Hmmmm.... it seems some of the users are revolting! (That line is open to misinterpretation and no doubt will be).

Firstly, let me assure those of you who appear to have come to the conclusion that this poll somehow carries any weight and will be used by me to change policy, that it is no such thing and has been posted by someone with their own agenda and is in no way an official PPRuNe survey.

I have always stated that this forum and the majority of the others will always be open to anyone who cares to read or make posts in them. Many others have stated much more eloquently than I am able as to why they were made open in the first place and why they always will remain so.

Robin made a post several pages back with a very pertinent question which no one has bothered to even attempt to provide a solution to. I will repeat the relevant part here: It would take less than 4 minutes to set up the forum some of you want and the rest of our airline careers to gain the time to earn the money allowing us to administer the membership work. More than 60% of PPRuNers are full time aviation professionals - please let us know exactly how you suggest we wade through and verify 20,000 plus applications. Actually - let's say 5,000 just for fun.

Hmmm, well I'm knackered this morning - you probably are as well so lets issue this challenge. Other than FAA licence holders who are on a database let's have your ideas on positively verifying a single application form submitted to us.

We're genuinely sorry PPRuNe isn't the place you remember - but then again it probably never was.....

In my experience airline pilots are no more exclusive than anyone else. They come from all walks of life and backgrounds. Some are eloquent and witty others are boring and uncouth. Some are great listners and others are incessant blaggers. Some are pleasant to be around and others are best avoided. There is no common theme apart from the fact that we all have taken and passed the relevant exams and jumped through the hoops put in our way before we have been granted the licence.

To suggest that having an exclusive forum only for members who hold the coveted licence will somehow prevent some of the tripe that we get on this and other forums is a fantasy. I know for a fact that some of the posters on this forum who have incensed and enraged some of you who are demanding an exclusive forum are just as likely to carry on winding you up on an exclusive forum because they too are not only licence holders but even senior training captains. Gosh! :eek:

For example, there is one fairly regular poster on these forums that manages to generating more irrelevant posts from others who are so easily wound up and unable to ignore fatuous comments because his posts are usually simple, to the point but more often than not condescending. The person concerned also posts under a different guise in a private forum and again manages to generate exactly the same reaction that he does on this public forum. This person is an experienced, current airline pilot and just because he would be posting in an exclusive forum for licence holders does not mean that he wouldn't cause just as much flak with his condescending attitude. There are just as many licence holders who react to such posts with their 'shock, horror, grief' with irrelevant posts and even abuse whether they are posting on here or in a private forum exclusive to professional pilots.

It is the rich variety of experience that make the forums what they are. I spend several hours most days of the week just filtering through posts here, often moving threads to more relevant forums so that they will attract the wider audience. It is only when we get the occasional poster who is so obviously unaware of their 'bovine excrement' quota excedence and tries to pass off comment from a point of authority, such as The Guvnor or someone making such stupid remarks such as that by flch10000 with uneducated allegations about something they clearly have no knowledge about but belive that they do, that I get involved.

There are many occasions that someone posts something that is irrelevant or out of place and more often than not it is just easier to ignore it and carry on with the thread but unfortunately there is always someone else who for, some undefined egotistical reason, likes to point out the irrelevance, thereby defeating the purpose of their post in the first place. Now you expect me and the others to somehow administer a license verification system!

Who qualifies as a professional pilot? One of the busiest forums is the Military Aircrew forum and would you include military aviators as professional pilots? I would and that is why there is a seperate forum for them. How would I go about verifying their licences? What about pilots from countries other than the UK? How do we set up the process? Do we get everyone who has a licence to fax us a copy of it together with a copy of their airline ID? What about unemployed professional pilots? Once we receive a faxed copy of the licence how do we verify it isn't a fake or a forgery? The list goes on.

Lets say that I employ one person full time, 8 hours a day, 5 days a week to somehow verify that every applicant is indeed a pilot with a professional licence, would you be prepared to share in the costs? As Robin suggested, lets just limit it to just 5,000 professional pilots. £10,000 a year for the full time employee plus various taxes plus costs of faxes, phone calls, correspondence, office space, data protection licence etc., etc., etc. That would be £4 a year per pilot. I can guarantee that if I were to charge just 50p a year for access that I woulod be lucky to get 100 applicants and some of you think that it would only take a few minutes per application... think again and multiply your result by the number of applicants.

Sorry, but unless someone can come up with a solution that is workable, affordable and realistic it isn't going to happen in a hurry. Most pilot only meetings I have ever been to have usually been very boring and dull affairs. It is only when we get the rich tapestry of thoughts and comments from others who have an interest in our profession that we get these interesting forums.

I know that some of you feel that they are not what they used to be but I think that is just a false impression due to a quiet news week for professional aviation. Like everything here, the quality ebbs and flows. We still have some of the best posters with the right credentials on here than anywhere else and as far as I am concerned they will always be welcome. I suggest that those of you who feel the quality has deteriorated to waste less energy on having a go at the 'percieved' offenders as you would be very upset to find that you had more of them than average in your exclusive forum.

There will always be pilots who believe that our profession should remain a 'black art'. We have all made many sacrifices and jumped through all the hoops and over all the hurdles that the licencing process puts before us. We have actually taken the risks and gone from wannabe to professional pilot. We do not just dream about being in the job. We are not just hobbyists who read everything about the job but we have actually gone down the road of gaining the licence and we actually earn our living doing the job. We know the difference between learning to use the FMC and actually using it in real life. We know the difference between reading about fatigue and actually experiencing it. We know the difference between the glamour stories about the job and the reality of commercial pressures and safety considerations on the line.

There will always be enthusiasts who are fascinated by our jobs. There will always be some who are well read and versed in what our jobs involve but no matter how well informed that believe they are they will never know what it is like in reality. Unless they make the commitment and pass all the exams and testing followed by the struggle to get their first jobs and the long climb up the ladder of experience, they will only ever be outsiders as far as we are concerned.

I for one, do not belive that our profession should be a 'black art'. I am proud to have actually made the leap from enthusiast to professional pilot. I don't mind that there are some people out there who 'believe' they can do it but choose not to. Let them believe it. Hopefully, by reading some of the forums on here they may make the decision to try for it too. It is not a 'black art'. It is a challenging career that is made more so because of the difficult licensing process but it is nothing more special than that.

Not everyone wants to go through the struggle and not everyone has the aptitude. Many go into other trades that are required to provide the infrastructure which supports us in our jobs and their interest in our aspect of it does not diminish. I know that I have no desire to be an engineer but I respect their jobs and find it fascinating when they take the time to explain something to me. I find it interesting when someone explains their job to me, whether it is a dispatcher or an air traffic controller. Why must we have an exclusive forum only for professional pilots when our profession depends on the myriad of other jobs that are required to make ours possible?

So, the majority of forums on PPRuNe will continue to be open. The many advertisers you see here and some who many of you freely have a go at will continue to pay for the costs of running the site. If anyone is willing to guarantee me £20,000 a year I will set up the exclusive forum only accessible by professional licenced pilots. Until then, enjoy and carry on contributing if you have anything worthwhile saying. I or my moderators may move or delete your posts if you are out of order or out of place but there will always be enough content to keep the majority of us informed and occasionally entertained.

[Electric Sky]

Spot on Danny! Anyone who cannot turn a blind eye to the tripe that is sometimes posted by pilots and non pilots and feels "too good" to be on Pprune should not irritate themselves anymore by simply removing Pprune from their favourites list!

I like to hear from some of the other pruners who aren't pilots and I find it easy to ignore the well known idiots.

ES ;)

[con-pilot]

I think that was very well said Danny.

Thank you Sir.

[Jet II]

Well said Danny,

If someone is so naive that he/she does not realise they are being wound-up, then perhaps they need to get out more and spend less time on the internet.

:D :D

[panda-k-bear]

Quite right too, Danny.

I'm NOT a pilot (professional or otherwise), but if I didn't continue to do my job, none of you pilots (professional or otherwise) would be piloting anything anywhere (OK, an exaggeration, but you get my drift). It's not only pilots who like to read and use this BB you know. Yes, I am a professional in the (commercial) aviation industry.

Am I welcome here? I do hope so. Are my opinions as valid as those of a pilot? I think so. I surf my particular areas of interest, but venture into others because I like to hear the news and views of other members of our community. Perhaps those who consider themselves superior enough to warrant their own private, locked forum are the kind who may well be welcome to it.

PKB

[chiglet]

Thanx Danny
As an ATSA, I used take a "Fam Flight" at EVERY opportuninty:D
Unfortunately since Sept 11 "No way Jose"......:mad:
However, I have had the privilidge [spelling] of escorting on a "semi" official, [aka PPRUNE setup] a BAL line skipper, two PPL[H]. plus several "wannabees" to EGCC/MAN Tower/APC/MACC
and guess what? They ALL enjoyed it:D .
To ALL those who want a "Private Forum". Do you read and/or reply to any other Forum? If so WHY????? They are not "Professional Pilots" domain, are they?:confused:
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

[PAXboy]

I have been involved in message boards since 1983, when e-mail was in it's infancy and the web not invented. The situation regarding people who post from then until now is unchanged. The reason is simple - we are all human beings!

I presently participate (to varying degrees) in three message boards across a variety of interests (professional and amateur) and across continents and have been involved in others in past years. I belong to groups that have open postings (PPRuNe) and closed postings and can be irritated in either set-up. I have long learnt to ignore the stupid and insulting posts because they only reply with more stupidity and insults.

My continued appreciation to the Chief Pilot and his crew for allowing us all to jump aboard.

[Hew Jampton]

Perhaps the original few posts on this thread tried to make the mesh too fine by talking about professional pilots only. Aware that it's somebody else's train set anyway, IMHO I think a degree of restriction on some fora to aviation professionals ( pilots, including PPLs with a professional attitude, cabin crew, flt engineers, ground engineers, ATCOs, ATSAs, aviation lawyers, aviation doctors, tels engineers, aerodrome firefighters, sorry if I've missed anybody out) would help. Even SLF have valid contributions sometimes, provided they identify themselves as such, but even they have their own forum on PPRuNe. Anoraks, wannabees, PC sim drivers etc rarely if ever make valid contributions to 'professional' aviation matters, especially if they don't identify themselves, or worse, masquerade as professionals.

I don't think I'm the only one to get fed up with, for example, the recent question cluttering up Tech Log on how VASIS/PAPIS work, when there is a more appropriate forum for Questions. In contrast, the one on Rain Gutters was from a professional (and was a valid question to ask, because it wasn't covered on my course either), and it developed into a good debate.

Chief of the train set, although it will take up valuable moderators' time, might more use of the Move facility help with what is undoubtedly a problem for many users?

[Airtoday]

No

[P.Pilcher]

They say that the best form of government is a benign dictatorship!

Well said Danny.

[Standard_Departure]

Hello all

Hew Jampton said:
Perhaps the original few posts on this thread tried to make the mesh too fine by talking about professional pilots only. Aware that it's somebody else's train set anyway, IMHO I think a degree of restriction on some fora to aviation professionals ( pilots, including PPLs with a professional attitude, cabin crew, flt engineers, ground engineers, ATCOs, ATSAs, aviation lawyers, aviation doctors, tels engineers, aerodrome firefighters, sorry if I've missed anybody out)

Hew, whilst I appreciate your opinion, the identification & verification process still remains an issue, AND those individuals who are closet wanabee's will still declare themselves to be what they may not be, AND the "Winder-uppers" will continue to crank the handle, with some (me on occasion) rising to the bait.

All in all, I reckon that the bluecoat forum (and others) exists for the connoisseurs and those who wish to be (mutually) exclusive.

There are places for exclusivity and there are places for inclusiveness, PPrune is the inclusive area.

Best Regards
Standard_Departure (SID)
ATCO

[rainbow]

I, like some here, have appreciated all forums in PPRuNe so much so that I have put my money where my QWERTY is.

[Bird Strike]

How about a forum where only professional pilots can post but others can read? That way, those 'on their way there' and other interested parties can learn without interfering with professional pilots' discussions.

[Capt.KAOS]

Danny you are my guru......

Wannabees and Walter Mittys were/are always exposed very efficiently within minutes and all that's left for them is standing naked in front of the crowd..... ;)

For my own experience, I got carried away by the horrible pics of dead kids on the airshow disaster and was blasted by a cargo seller and an ex RAF bomber (coincidence?), but the composed answer of another pilot made see my mistake and I'm thankful for that.

This is the best ever message board I've been on all my life.....

Cheers

Capt.KAOS

[Standard_Departure]

Bird Strike said:How about a forum where only professional pilots can post but others can read?

Previously on this thread: Capt PPrune said:It would take less than 4 minutes to set up the forum some of you want and the rest of our airline careers to gain the time to earn the money allowing us to administer the membership work. More than 60% of PPRuNers are full time aviation professionals - please let us know exactly how you suggest we wade through and verify 20,000 plus applications. Actually - let's say 5,000 just for fun.

then Hew Jampton said:Perhaps the original few posts on this thread tried to make the mesh too fine by talking about professional pilots only. Aware that it's somebody else's train set anyway, IMHO I think a degree of restriction on some fora to aviation professionals ( pilots, including PPLs with a professional attitude, cabin crew, flt engineers, ground engineers, ATCOs, ATSAs, aviation lawyers, aviation doctors, tels engineers, aerodrome firefighters, sorry if I've missed anybody out)

To which I replied :Hew, whilst I appreciate your opinion, the identification & verification process still remains an issue, AND those individuals who are closet wanabee's will still declare themselves to be what they may not be

My point is : The MMWC (main man what counts) has already said that the identification & verification proccess is to big for full time workers doing the web on the side.

Best Regards
SID
(ATC)

[RVR800]

Yes maybe only time served unrestricted JAR instructors
should be permitted access to the hallowed forum of flight
instructors. 1000 + instructional hours (excluding microlights)

With valid medical certificates.

:rolleyes:

[MarkD]

the other prob is if a company sued Danny for the details of the verification used for a particular ID who posted hush hush stuff. While Danny can currently say "I only know the IP", he would then have ATPL details etc. While these issues are pertinent to the closed forums, it might still happen in the "semi-open" ones.

I am not a PP, I did one year of a BEng Aero and stuffed it up. I am SLF but do my best to help CC etc. by reporting issues with equipment quietly in a "you might have someone look at..." way. Without SLF feedback, the industry would be a much less profitable place! If I found myself on an Astreaus a/c, I know that there are some quality folks running the show, based on PPRuNe opinions.

Finally, a lot of the PPs here are "another numbers" who haven't bothered their @rse paying even a few bob to help this service. I earn <25k USD in my job and while it wasn't a lot it wasn't nothing either - a lot of the PPs kicking up a fuss should consider the cost of running a verified service when now they pay b*gger all! :mad:

sorry - I tend to go on a bit.

Byeeee!

[simon brown]

My feelings are that the professionals (not being one myself only a PPL ) should have a forum set aside unencumbered by the likes of people whom dont know what they are talking about.

However it would be nice for the non professionals to at least be able to view the forum but not interact with it.

If I was in a bar having a detailed discussion with someone on a particular subject, I would be somewhat annoyed by some dick head interjecting with banter they know nothing about and hi jacking the conversation.

This would allow non professionals to set up their own thread based on their viewing of the "closed" professional forum, elsewhere.

SB

[goatgruff]

As a fellow professional - an atco - I would urge you all to vote NO!!!
Our professional interests overlap frequently, as do those who some of you take for granted ( operations, engineers and ground staff - the folk who make your working day 100% easier).
It's vital that a link between us, which allows free and open discussion, exists.
If you can't dismiss the dross, which admittedly sometimes appears on the site from time to time, you don't deserve to be in the job in the first place.

Only the most arrogant and foolish of the so called professionals amongst you would vote for this move.:rolleyes: :mad: :rolleyes:

[DFC]

Well said Danny.

The Piloting profession must be the only one I know of where people who are qualified are called wannabees.

If one takes a consultant as being the ATPL of medicine, how many wanabee doctors (misters) do we rely on?

Can we have part of the 3 Magpies cordened off for people with four bars or more please?

This must be a joke :D

DFC

[lomapaseo]

> Finally, a lot of the PPs here are "another numbers" who haven't bothered their @rse paying even a few bob to help this service. I earn <25k USD in my job and while it wasn't a lot it wasn't nothing either - a lot of the PPs kicking up a fuss should consider the cost of running a verified service when now they pay b*gger all! <

Anytime they want some money from me they can ask. I would gladly pay for a well run forum I assumed that those paying were paying for vanity plate priveleges to hang on their arse in front of the rest of us

[Shadowpurser]

That was exactly my point! If you want a better board with full time staff running it for you - then support it by putting your hands in your pockets and becoming more than "just another number" or getting an icon like Danny's
<------------------------------- here

my $60 order is being processed for both - and I'm not a pilot and I suspect that most posting on here earn substantially more than me.:(

[flapsforty]

lomapaseo, that might or might not be be the case.

Speaking for myself and many of the PPRuNers I know personally, the "vanity plates" were bought out of a genuine desire to support a site which gives us much pleasure for absolutely free.

Cynicism versus idealism, or realism versus head-in-clouds, you pick. :)

If you are interested in supporting the old place and getting your own monniker, click here (http://www.pprune.org/go.php?go=/ptorder/ptorder.htm). ;)

[MrBig]

I have to say that, over the years, I have the impression that PPrune has been Dumbed down. I would find it personally benificial if the site was restored to a serious discussion on the topics of the day.

Frankly, personal attacks and general abuse are of no interest. A PP forum, hopefuly, would restore the site to its former glory.

[roger]

Why continue?
Capt PPRuNe said it all.
roger

[Wino]

Flaps,
I would love to support the site, just can't think of a moniker... Was thinking of "Damn Yankee" or maybe my favorite from WWII describing the US airmen "Overpaid, oversexed, and overHERE..."

But none of them seem quite right...


As to the thread, everything that everyone is asking for (and I mean everything) is available somewhere on the web. Feel free to go out and find it. Danny is doing an excellent job and the current setup is the best compromise possible...

Cheers
Wino

PS. I think I just thought of my handle, thanks to the award presented to me at the ASH bash...

[Indiana Jones]

I agree that the content of the forum has been spoilt somewhat by others. I'm not a pilot, but have been a station manager of US schedule carriers for 20 years now, since I was 24. I would not want to be 'locked' out of such an important source of information to me and a continued way to work together with a number of individuals from various areas of the business.

[undertheweather]

Its the Club mentality, I'm afraid. I'm sure the Ferrari owners club (for example) don't appreciate a man in a Ford turning up at their meetings. This is a particularly English (not British) trait, and one that will probably be with us for a while.

As a PPL, this is the very first time I have contributed to a thread other than in 'Private Flying'. Usually, I have no desire to, but I do enjoy reading the contents (for interest as well as amusement) of various fora.

My suggestion is to keep the site as it is, with all the variety, lunatic posters, wise old men and others, but take the word 'Professional' out of the title. This may take the wind out of the over-inflated sails of those who started this thread.

PPRUNE is dead - long live PRUNE

[Whirlybird]

I have one very simple question to put to all the people who want a Professional Pilots only forum:

What makes you think that passing the CPL/ATPL exams and getting paid to fly suddenly turns a stupid or annoying person into something else?

I passed them, nearly a year ago. I'm the same person I was before. I think I'll be the same when I get that first flying job too. If I annoy anyone now - and sometimes I do...guess what...I still will then.

And if you think I'm wrong, please explain why.

[nosefirsteverytime]

May I just put in my two cent?

I'm a "nintendo/armchair" pilot myself (In fact, I have no flight sim to speak of since the CD ROM went bust over a year ago, so I'm even in envy of the desk pilots!) Now, the only, single, solitary reason I come here is because I intend to be involved in the aviation business. It won't be long till I'm either in Aero Eng or Lessons gaining a CPL. I for one are glad that PPRuNe is open to public viewing, have learned a great deal from its pages and, most importantly, opinions got from here have influenced my future decisions on my career path.

However, I feel that for a first timer, who sees the page (after referral from somewhere else) and scrolls down through the BBs, his/her eyes will be drawn to the "WannaBees" section. Now I know scroggs et al have posted on top what is or isn't to go in there, I feel that the "inexperienced" first-post Newbie questions should be put on a seperate forum altogether, questions like "what does it take to be a pilot?" "how much?" "what's the medical like?"and all those simple introductory queries that we all asked when we first looked at flying airplanes. Then when suitable threads are built up, then put an "announcement" on top with links to the most Frequently Asked Threads.

Now then, my opinions on people who have nothing more than a hobby's worth of an interest. I think they are alright, but they must be honest as to who they are. They cannot come out all acronyms and such talking about the possible causes of an air crash when they're doing nowt but waffling.

I think it's true for most rules on this forum when I say "Honesty is the best policy"

Oh, and can I change my vote to the flogging dead horse one?

[Jet II]

Why are people continuing with this thread - Danny told us 3 days ago that there were to be no private forums and he gave us all the reasons.

If some people want a 'private' forum can I suggest they spend less time whinging about it here and set up their own web-site. Don't forget this web-site belongs to Danny and his is the FINAL word.

:)

[Guido]

Possibly the reason posts are continuing is that people can't be bothered to read all 6 previous pages.
I have just sat in front of my screen for over an hour and changed my opinion several times. I was glad, actually relieved when I came across the official responses, and having read and understood them am amazed the thread continues.
Perhaps Danny could insert a précis of the official standing at the top of each page and newcomers/inquisitive parties would quickly realise that nothing will change in the immediate future.
My view? As a military aviator I take my chances in our open forum and very rarely post outside (or even within), preferring to use self-control and an alcohol activated lock on my keyboard to ensure sense prevails.

[teropa]

Hi,

There's also an option of locking the thread, which is what should be done to this one asap, as the rest of the discussion would probably be just "I'm glad that blablabla.." or "I don't understand the decision because blablabla".

The system remains, and that's that. Is there a dead horse somewhere??

cheers,
Tero

[Soggy]

If CPL's want a private place to make their opinion s and views known without fear of others knowing them (which is what some seem to want), then do not use the internet.
There will always be someone listening.
Perhaps there should be a separate forum so you can realise what you are after is never going to be achievable.

Nintnedo and FS2000 boffs are too busy flying their 747's to spend too much time looking at this anyway.

[Alchemy]

As a mere instrument rated PPL I enjoy reading this forum because it is a source of valuable insight into the airline world for people, such as myself, who one day hope to join the ranks of you ATP's.

I would support having this forum available to non Pro-Pilots on a "read-only" basis. I, for one, read this forum daily, but rarely make contributions.

[MaxAOB]

Lots of valid argument but i agree that PPrune seems to have become a victim of its own success. I personally don't believe that it is anything like the forum that it once was and now only visit the site about once a month or so, whereas it used to be about once every 2/3 days. These things happen though and you cannot prevent others from contributing to the various discussions (even if the majority are polluted by some silly comments). Positively though on really serious issues the comment is generally good and enhanced by sensible contributions from non pilot professionals.
I fear that it is something that we must live with as much as slot delays, unruly passengers and dare i say it - the management!!

Regards

:) ;) :p ;) :)

[126.9]

Go on then. Even Danny must think it's a good idea. Running this site I'm sure he's pulled all of his hair out by now.

What about a locked forum for Licensed Professional Aviation Personnel? That is; anyone that holds a licence to practice his/her role in aviation, gets access?

Go on then... shoot me down!!! :D

[PPRuNe Towers]

I refer the honourable gentleman to the shooting down that occured some pages ago.

[BlueEagle]

It never ceases to amaze me the number of clowns who leap in at the end of a thread and post without even bothering to read the previous four or five pages!:mad:

[arcniz]

Rather like a government project - the people go on an on, long after the original purpose is discharged.

[126.9]

I must apologise: how stupid of me to have an opinion similar to that of someone else on this thread! Good grief; off with the head!
I definitely can't wait to go on pension so that I too can clock up 5 posts a day insulting people I don't have to face and never will meet and list all my types in a row and brag about being a retired airline captain. Well, it's either that or I might just decide to get a life? :D

[Paterbrat]

Having read through the preceding I like other could not resist a last thwack of the deceased withers. The name plate over my arse was an feeble attempt at humourous support for a rather fine site. It does indeed have the facilities for the PP's to chat amongst their peers undisturbed by the great unwashed, and various other little nooks where the likeminded or simply curious can gather. There are ideed some ridiculous and agravating postings I have no doubt posted a few myself. My profession while endlessly fascinating does not confer the power upon me to become any more interesting or informed than many who may not be professional pilots. I like most others enjoy reading good common sense, a witty quote and a look at life and situations through other's eyes. There are as always those who' submissions I skip through or simply ignore but much that is well worth reading. Thanks Danny and his helpers, it's a great site.

[PPRuNe Pop]

The end must be nigh! Keys at the ready ;)

[Big Tudor]

Would one of the mod bods please put this thread out of its misery. It is inhumane to allow a thread to suffer any more. ;)