Qantas Group Pilots Giving Up Entitlements

[aussieflyboy]

Hearing rumours that pilots are being encouraged (by their company and more senior crew) to give up meal and other types of EA allowances to ensure the company they work for are given preferential treatment when QF hands out flying work.

ie: QF will give this Charter flight to Network because Cobham and Mainline crew are claiming an extra X% of allowances per month.

Is this exactly why QF has multiple entities doing effectively the same thing (piloting aircraft) because they know they’ll fight for work and save QF money? Are the crew that are giving up entitlements scabbing?

[bazza stub]

Doesn’t matter what you call it, pilots will never be united and this crisis will be milked for all
it’s worth. The only enemy here is the corporate culture employed by QF, not other pilots.

[Ollie Onion]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but probably 30% of us won’t fly for the Qantas Group again in the next 5 years and those that are left will be flying on terms and conditions a lot lower than those we currently enjoy. Qantas will be giving the work that is best suited to the aircraft type and of course that makes them the most money, I was on a dial in the other day and a Jetstar 787 pilot said why not give the domestic work to them as they are cheaper than Qantas crew, answer was, we don’t have 787 logistics set up at domestic terminals such as the loading and boarding system, so although on the face it might be cheaper it would require an outlay that Qantas is not going to spend. I don’t think meal payments are going to be the difference.

[cloudsurfng]

I’m calling bull****.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but probably 30% of us won’t fly for the Qantas Group again in the next 5 years and those that are left will be flying on terms and conditions a lot lower than those we currently enjoy. Qantas will be giving the work that is best suited to the aircraft type and of course that makes them the most money, I was on a dial in the other day and a Jetstar 787 pilot said why not give the domestic work to them as they are cheaper than Qantas crew, answer was, we don’t have 787 logistics set up at domestic terminals such as the loading and boarding system, so although on the face it might be cheaper it would require an outlay that Qantas is not going to spend. I don’t think meal payments are going to be the difference.

I think the percentage of QF group pilots that are still flying after COVID 19 depends on the amount that Virgin contracts.

I dont blame the 787 boys for trying to think outside the square to get themselves flying given that international is probably at least 12-18 months away. I think their best chance would be SYD-AKL-MEL services like they did a few years ago, but I think even that is grasping at straws. It doesn’t make much sense to reactive a fleet for such little flying.

[ScepticalOptomist]

Dunno Ollie - lots of doom being peddled - I’m more optimistic than most, I reckon it will turn out better, sooner, than that.

This started for most of the western world properly in March. We are in May - even the worst hit parts of the world are starting to get better - not worse, irrespective of their lockdown methods.
Of course government isn’t committing to international travel anytime soon - they’ve got enough nut jobs they have to appease just to get kids back to school, let alone anything else.

Things will change as confidence grows, and it will grow.

Cheap leisure travel in the loco market might take a while, but even that will come back well. Aussies are voracious travellers.

You’re a pilot - makes sense to plan for the worst. That way Everything else will feel easy.

Chins up everyone. Life goes on.

[Ragnor]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but probably 30% of us won’t fly for the Qantas Group again in the next 5 years and those that are left will be flying on terms and conditions a lot lower than those we currently enjoy. Qantas will be giving the work that is best suited to the aircraft type and of course that makes them the most money, I was on a dial in the other day and a Jetstar 787 pilot said why not give the domestic work to them as they are cheaper than Qantas crew, answer was, we don’t have 787 logistics set up at domestic terminals such as the loading and boarding system, so although on the face it might be cheaper it would require an outlay that Qantas is not going to spend. I don’t think meal payments are going to be the difference.

If you’re international crew yeah maybe, JQ Domestic will pic up long before that due to cost.
As for your JQ 787 pilot asking that, I’ve been on every dial in since this China Virus 🦠 hit and I don’t remember this. Only rhetoric question I hear is why they can’t turn them into freighters. Though, GE has given every assurance that JQ want the 78 in the network just be awhile before they have useful work for them.

[Ollie Onion]

Jetstar Dial In, don’t get me wrong, I don’t blame him for asking. Just saying there will be many pilot groups making ‘offers’ of concessions to try and get flying as per the original post. I just don’t think it will make any difference I.e. meal payments won’t be the difference between one group or the other flying. I don’t think the original poster should get upset at this happening. I hope that we all get back to work soon, if we look all over the world though lots of management teams are using this crisis to also strip some terms and conditions and we should be prepared for that.

[aussieflyboy]

I think the concern is once you give something up it’s unlikely you will get it back.

So in 2, 3, 4 years time when everything is back to the new normal, the terms and conditions generations of crews before you fought for may not be there.

[kellykelpie]

I was on a dial in the other day and a Jetstar 787 pilot said why not give the domestic work to them as they are cheaper than Qantas crew,

Classy! Thanks very much....

[Green.Dot]

I heard a rumour that the level of sh*te being posted on PPRUNE is at an all time high. This just ain’t news worthy in the grand scheme of things...

Let’s re-assess when we work out how Australia is going to fare at a national level before we think about meal allowances.

[aussieflyboy]

Let’s re-assess when we work out how Australia is going to fare at a national level before we think about meal allowances.

By then the half sandwich (which used to be the standard for an economy pax meal) and a half rotten banana will be the norm on a 9 hour duty. Maybe you folks could suggest getting rid of overtime/min hours guarantee as well? And who needs a 4 star hotel? Backpackers will do (some may actually prefer that one)

[Green.Dot]

By then the half sandwich (which used to be the standard for an economy pax meal) and a half rotten banana will be the norm on a 9 hour duty. Maybe you folks could suggest getting rid of overtime/min hours guarantee as well? And who needs a 4 star hotel? Backpackers will do (some may actually prefer that one)

You missed my point. 80% of the workforce hasn’t even touched an aeroplane for a couple months. I’ll jump up and down when I see a flight deck if there is no food.

Like somebody else said I call bullsh*t

[KRUSTY 34]

So what happens to the stood down 747 crews once Jobkeeper expires in September?

[Ragnor]

So what happens to the stood down 747 crews once Jobkeeper expires in September?

Ummmm they stay stood down like the rest of us if there is no useful employment.

[Climb150]

I know USA isn't Australia but the feeling there is "full pay and benefits" until the last day. They learnt from 9/11 and 2008 that what you give up now, you will never get back. Ever.

[Buttscratcher]

Ah, the brotherhood of pilots. The quintessence of Aussie mateship.
Well, for y'all not around for '89, '02 and even '08....here we go again.
Make no mistake, if times are hard enough, we will sell our grandmothers and root a dog on a chain.
That being said though, management will always do what management wants to do. There is no free will.
Your 'meal allowance' waver scenario is a simple show of weakness and scaremongering.
I call 'bull****' on the OP

[B772]

I would expect Ellen to wait and see what happens with Virgin before he looks at pilot and cabin crew numbers. There is no guarantee Virgin will be operating in September. They could end up being liquidated due to stuff ups by the administrator. If Virgin were to be liquidated it would take some time for a replacement carrier to get in the air.

[KRUSTY 34]

Ummmm they stay stood down like the rest of us if there is no useful employment.

Yup, I get that. But the “rest of us” will probably have a “type” to go back to!

[Ragnor]

QF haven’t made any announcement on the immediate future of the 74, so who knows come July could be using them flat out domestically. As restrictions ease over the coming weeks it should be an indication of how the public feel. If there is heaps at the shops spending etc things could be ok as their confidence increase if they’re home and being cautious well there will be a lot facing a future without aviation.

[BNEA320]

I think the percentage of QF group pilots that are still flying after COVID 19 depends on the amount that Virgin contracts.

I dont blame the 787 boys for trying to think outside the square to get themselves flying given that international is probably at least 12-18 months away. I think their best chance would be SYD-AKL-MEL services like they did a few years ago, but I think even that is grasping at straws. It doesn’t make much sense to reactive a fleet for such little flying.
12 to 18 months ?

You might not have noticed, but although reduced, there are plenty of flights operating in EU & USA right now.

Quite a few airlines are looking to start flying on some sort of normal schedule within a month to 6 weeks (domestically) to NZ not long after that, a month maybe & rest of international a month after that.

Welfare will have to cut out well before Sept.

Everyone here should be talking it up, not down.

If above doesn't happen, better start cleaning your rifles & loading up on ammo & stocking up at the supermarket.

The media frenzy will end soon, as public is sick & tired of the hype & some so called expert being dragged out, that no one has ever heard of.

Sounds like many don't know how media works.

They phone around until they get some contravertial opinion & make it, that opinion, (from someone who likes to see their name in the paper as an expert, ) sound like all experts agree, when they never do.

The media will find something else to beat up.

Virtually no one is dying in OZ or NZ of corona, but it's very dangerous driving cars on our now very busy roads, relatively.

The thing that hasn't been mentioned about deaths in nursing homes, is ow many would have died in the same period due to some other medical reason.

[cynphil]

Yup, I get that. But the “rest of us” will probably have a “type” to go back to!

The company will have to address the RIN issues, one for the B747 and a partial RIN for the A380 first. As being much junior I wish it could be different but accept the senior pilots have contractual rights in the EBA despite the cost to the company. Remember all training is done in house with Qf simulators and training staff so costs would be as minimal as possible (even though very expensive). Changing from Left seat to right seat is more of a formality rather than cost (short haul) as is First Officer to second Officer if on same type in LH.
Come October once the company has worked out the RINs and the flight schedule going forward, then and only then will we know the extent of the redundancy’s. But there will be redundancy’s!!

[Ragnor]

BNEA320, I like your optimism keep it up we all need to hear it. This time next yr we will be talking about how messed up 2020 was.

[Rashid Bacon]

BNEA320 - What he says :ok:

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

12 to 18 months ?

You might not have noticed, but although reduced, there are plenty of flights operating in EU & USA

If you think its going to be less than 12-18 months before we open our international boarders then I think you’re setting yourself up to be pretty disappointed.

Australia has managed to contain the virus unlike the US/EU (for now), how can we open our boarders until we can be assured every other country has done the same (which we can’t) or there’s a vaccine?

The best we can hope for is a gradual expanding of the bubble beyond NZ and pacific islands in the next 6-12 months(maybe Singapore, South Korea next).

have a listen to Scomo next time he’s asked about international travel. Definitely not happening this year, so you can read into that early/mid next year would be best case.

[Bend alot]

Virtually no one is dying in OZ or NZ of corona, but it's very dangerous driving cars on our now very busy roads, relatively.


There are reasons virtually no-one in OZ or NZ are dying of corona, but two great isolated (to the rest of the world) countries to pick. New Zealand have a slightly better recovery rate than Australia considering populations.

Other countries not so isolated have vastly worse figures than Oz & NZ, both in total numbers and recovery rates.

Singapore appeared to have the virus under control and has been held up as a model to the world in how to beat COVID-19.
April 14 there was 3,252 cases - today less than 4 weeks later 22,460 cases including 753 in the past 24 hours. That said they are doing exceptionally well with recoveries and I assume that is due to the health system capabilities.

If Australia or New Zealand had a seven fold increase in cases in a month, expect a far greater than 7 x increase in our current death rate. We simply have our limited resources spread over large areas to be able deal with clusters outside capital city limits.

[Lapon]

Hearing rumours that pilots are being encouraged (by their company and more senior crew) to give up meal and other types of EA allowances to ensure the company they work for are given preferential treatment when QF hands out flying work.

ie: QF will give this Charter flight to Network because Cobham and Mainline crew are claiming an extra X% of allowances per month.

Is this exactly why QF has multiple entities doing effectively the same thing (piloting aircraft) because they know they’ll fight for work and save QF money? Are the crew that are giving up entitlements scabbing?

Fleet allocation determined by tech crew meal allowances? Please dont tell me this is a legitimate question :ugh:

[BNEA320]

If you think its going to be less than 12-18 months before we open our international boarders then I think you’re setting yourself up to be pretty disappointed.

Australia has managed to contain the virus unlike the US/EU (for now), how can we open our boarders until we can be assured every other country has done the same (which we can’t) or there’s a vaccine?

The best we can hope for is a gradual expanding of the bubble beyond NZ and pacific islands in the next 6-12 months(maybe Singapore, South Korea next).

have a listen to Scomo next time he’s asked about international travel. Definitely not happening this year, so you can read into that early/mid next year would be best case.scomo is trying to get everyone to holiday in OZ for rest of year, cos the country is now broke & we don't want to be sending $$$ overseas, BUT we need tourists, especially from NZ, even though they don't speak english & guess what, NZ govt is going to be trying to get other borders open soon, so Australians will be able to fly OZ/NZ & then onward to Canada etc. very soon. Predict that will happen in 2 to 3 months. Vaccine ? Who knows when that will happen. Some are being tested now, but in the short term drugs might offer a solution.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

scomo is trying to get everyone to holiday in OZ for rest of year, cos the country is now broke & we don't want to be sending $$$ overseas, BUT we need tourists, especially from NZ, even though they don't speak english & guess what, NZ govt is going to be trying to get other borders open soon, so Australians will be able to fly OZ/NZ & then onward to Canada etc. very soon. Predict that will happen in 2 to 3 months. Vaccine ? Who knows when that will happen. Some are being tested now, but in the short term drugs might offer a solution.

This is a touch more realistic than your original ‘domestic in 6 weeks, NZ a month after that, then full international in another month’ that you replied to me with. We havent even convinced our state premiers to open interstate boarders yet, never mind international.

But you raised the main point, no one knows!

However, peddling false hope is a dangerous. In these circumstances it’s probably best to plan for the worst and cautiously hope for the best, mentally and financially.

[krismiler]

It's much easier for a politician to give a worst case scenario and then take credit when things don't turn out as bad as everyone expected. Should be worth a few votes if the borders can be opened up early.

The virus was a wave which washed across the world, countries which got hit first are largely on the road to recovery, those hit later still have a few weeks to go, but I think most people would agree that the worst is over and light is starting to appear at the end of the tunnel. Infection and death rates have slowed, health systems in developed countries were stretched but coped.

Talk is now of how to lift restrictions and open up gradually rather than of imposing further measures. Some regions of the world will remain off limits for varying lengths of time, and there will be sporadic outbreaks to be dealt with but we can now concentrate on the road to recovery.

We will have to get used to wearing face masks and maintaining social distancing for a long time to come. The Australian standard of hat, sunglasses and sunscreen when going outside will now include a mask.

The issue now is dealing with the economic impact that the virus has had. Flying will return in phases as demand picks up, what the final picture will look like is anyone's guess.

[Blueskymine]

Fake news.......

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

Who gives a flying f?ck about quntas loosing the ****. Welcome to the real world wankers....

that’s a bit harsh

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

It’s certainly not when a lot of pilots like myself in other airlines have been stood down without pay and stripped of all our entitlements!!!!!

Lots of people are hurting right now....

nah, no need to sink the boots in my friend.

Im not a QF pilot, but also stood down without pay. Tough time for everyone. Doesn’t matter what uniform you wear.

[Buttscratcher]

Yeah, look, it's not really what the OP's post was getting at.
But feel free to drift around the intended topic to exorcise your demons.

[BNEA320]

This is a touch more realistic than your original ‘domestic in 6 weeks, NZ a month after that, then full international in another month’ that you replied to me with. We havent even convinced our state premiers to open interstate boarders yet, never mind international.

But you raised the main point, no one knows!

However, peddling false hope is a dangerous. In these circumstances it’s probably best to plan for the worst and cautiously hope for the best, mentally and financially.
Qld could have intrastate flights within weeks. It's then up to states to get their acts together, but it seems to me, that it's all over. Mass gatherings in Qld can't be stopped. (you can't fine 1000 people & cops wouldn't even bother trying) Shopping centres are packed. The public is so over it.

Still can't believe no flights restrictions in USA except you must now wear a mask on all or almost all airlines.

[Ragnor]

And we are discussing QF entitlements, **** off!!!

You’re an angry Duck, we are all in this together. It does matter because it’s their entitlements. I don’t work there either I’m stood down with nothin* like most wondering if I’ll have a job

[aussieflyboy]

Fleet allocation determined by tech crew meal allowances? Please dont tell me this is a legitimate question :ugh:

Those of us with common sense know this. However it’s been confirmed to me that crew are not claiming allowances (not just meal allowances) when they are entitled too as they believe that is the case :rolleyes:

[ShandywithSugar]

What a load of wind up this is or change the Thread Title to accurately reflect which group is.

Mainline and Jetstar wouldn't have a hope in hell of being able to drop allowances through any IT system let alone manned resources.

So we're left with ....

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

And we are discussing QF entitlements, f🤬ck off!!!

Mr Duck, if you don’t like the thread, why contribute?

You seem like a bit of a grumpy duck with language like that. Stick to quacking!

[normanton]

Well QF, JQ, Qlink don't claim allowances. So you are talking about Network or EFA?

[Angle of Attack]

There’s no extra allowances to claim for meals for pilots In QF only cabin crew, maybe that’s the tree your trying to bark up?

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

Thanks for the positive support, f🤬ck idiots!!!

that doesn’t even make sense... definitely stick to quacking

[SandyPalms]

Are some pilots who are stood down more entitled to vent than others, duck? What kinda support so you want? I'm also stood down on zero pay, and I do work for QF. What's the problem?

[aussieflyboy]

What a load of wind up this is or change the Thread Title to accurately reflect which group is.

Mainline and Jetstar wouldn't have a hope in hell of being able to drop allowances through any IT system let alone manned resources.

So we're left with ....

Sorry about the vagueness mate, this was promulgated amongst stood down crew on a flight crew social media group.

My understanding was this is happening on the West coast and it was said that crew are either not being provided meals or are being provided ‘not to standard meals’ and are not claiming allowances when they are entitled too. As stated my concern is if this is occurring we ALL lose out in the end and i think a healthy discussion would be worthwhile on this platform.

[VH-FTS]

When the company decided to remove crew meals, they would have looked at the EBA allowance costs and factored that into the decision. Claiming a lunch allowance won't make the company go broke, nor is it going to change the perception of any employment group. Claim the allowance and look after your family. Or if you want to be noble, spend the allowance at a local business/cafe and help the local economy.

[Going Nowhere]

Well QF, JQ, Qlink don't claim allowances. So you are talking about Network or EFA?

QLink are able to claim meal allowances due to limited on board catering.

I would guess most, but possibly not all would be doing so.

[SandyPalms]

Don’t expect any support, however show some respect for the people who are doing it hard......

Typical tall poppy attitude! Show some respect and support to our fellow aviation colleges?

Please look after one another!!!!

Ok! Very powerful words :rolleyes: Thanks.

[oicur12.again]

You might not have noticed, but although reduced, there are plenty of flights operating in EU & USA right now.

Not sure what your news source is but here in the US, data from airlines and the TSA indicate passenger numbers are presently 4% compared to this time last year.

Flights are outstripping passenger demand because of some outdated and absurd Government regulations that require certain flights to continue regardless of passenger numbers.

These flights will end when the CARES stimulus runs out in October and the industry will be furloughing over one third of pilots in round one. More furloughs will follow and the industry is not making these moves assuming things turn around quickly.

Australia has done very well during these trying times but I would be very careful about dropping your guard and letting this virus take hold in the way it has here in the US or Europe.

The media frenzy will end soon, as public is sick & tired of the hype & some so called expert being dragged out, that no one has ever heard of.

The results of this pandemic have nothing to do with the media. Shutdowns have occurred globally because Governments act based upon prudent expert advice, not media hype.

[QuarterInchSocket]

Don’t expect any support, however show some respect for the people who are doing it hard......
Typical tall poppy attitude! Show some respect and support to our fellow aviation colleges?
Please look after one another!!!!
I guess it’s reasonable to expect a bit of reciprocation, duck. You give as good as you get. Re qf - it is its own beast, It cannot be compared to external entities easily. Our battles are Mostly internal and are about maintaining and preserving hard fought for conditions and prevailing against what I’d describe as a manipulative executive (in my opinion)

anyway - I would hope if there is any basis to this rumour there’d be a reciprocal arrangement from management and executives (genuine and enduring reductions in incentives, bonuses etc), or, make such an arrangement with a time constraint and/or dependant on company/group performance. Ie. take the hit, and come back and review each 6months. But even if this is done, there is risk that the company will make the relative department fight for said condition/s back when the grass starts growing again.

[Duck Pilot]

G’day all, apologise for all the bad remarks etc. Posts have been deleted however that means nothing.

I was having a bad day yesterday, I should have never stuck my nose into this discussion. We all make mistakes particularly when we are under stress.

Very difficult times now, however I’m sure I will get through it. Apologies and all the best.

[Lookleft]

Well done DP for that last post. Go easy on yourself and best wishes in these difficult times.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

G’day all, apologise for all the bad remarks etc. Posts have been deleted however that means nothing.

I was having a bad day yesterday, I should have never stuck my nose into this discussion. We all make mistakes particularly when we are under stress.

Very difficult times now, however I’m sure I will get through it. Apologies and all the best.

not many people on these forums would do that, I commend you!

We’re all having good days and bad days at the moment. Keep your head up, we’re all in it together.

[CaptainInsaneO]

G’day all, apologise for all the bad remarks etc. Posts have been deleted however that means nothing.

I was having a bad day yesterday, I should have never stuck my nose into this discussion. We all make mistakes particularly when we are under stress.

Very difficult times now, however I’m sure I will get through it. Apologies and all the best.

Excellent show of humility mate.
There’s a lot of pilots reading these posts that have also been stood down with an uncertain future, good pilots and good people (and a few dickheads too I’d suspect). Also many people who have borrowed a squillion dollars to pay for training that can’t justify the cost now due to low chance of employment.

Aviation is fickle as we all know, but this one is different - you can’t just go overseas and get work.

Covid isn’t any pilot’s fault - so show humility towards your fellow pilot.

You do however, have a responsibility to be professional and remain competent. If we all do this, we’ll be at a better standing towards the public, the government and our employers. This will give your career and the industry the best fighting chance to recover.

[QuarterInchSocket]

Good on you duck. Nothing lasts forever. Find something, anything (but unhealthy habits) to fill your time. I know bills have to be paid, and I’m not sure what the answers are there. Just play the cards as they are and have the tough convos with people to see how they can help. You’re certainly not alone, that’s a certainty!

[f1yhigh]

Why aren't they using 747s on some repatriation flights or even the odd freight op here and there?

[ScepticalOptomist]

G’day all, apologise for all the bad remarks etc. Posts have been deleted however that means nothing.

I was having a bad day yesterday, I should have never stuck my nose into this discussion. We all make mistakes particularly when we are under stress.

Very difficult times now, however I’m sure I will get through it. Apologies and all the best.

Well done Duck - good to see this type of post - we can all learn to be more humble - especially on here!

I’m also stood down, and have good days and bad - we’re all in it together.

Stay safe.

[B772]

f1yhigh: An airline will always use the aircraft with the lowest trip cost commensurate with the payload/range required.

[f1yhigh]

f1yhigh: An airline will always use the aircraft with the lowest trip cost commensurate with the payload/range required.

Suffice to say that the 747s will not be flying anytime soon then, despite the low fuel costs. Albeit personally I would have thought it would have been less expensive in the short-medium term for QF to throw the 747 crew a bone by chucking a few flights every once in a while. Evidently that's not the case.