Working Life After Flying [Archive]

Smokey Lomcevak

30th Apr 2020, 08:11

As the implications of the current crisis begin to emerge, no doubt many of us are taking stock of our positions and considering what outcomes might mean for us and our families. When I - personally - try and imagine a worst case scenario facing me - i.e. compulsory redundancy on statutory terms, I’m at a loss about what to do next. I was fortunate to embark on a flying career shortly after leaving university, so my only experiences other work have been fairly menial - and my degree itself is could be described as mediocre and specifically related to aviation.

I wonder if there’s anyone still lurking here that has left a career in flying - either voluntarily or otherwise - that would mind sharing their story - successful or otherwise - about finding gainful employment thereafter. Perhaps some of us here can draw on these posts - not only as a source of positivity and hope - but as a potential source of ideas, too. It seems particularly difficult to divert attention away from the worries ahead - and so instead of worrying about things that are currently beyond my control, I want to try and focus that attention more productively. I for one am grateful for any contributions.

I know this does’t specifically relate to the ‘Terms and Endearment’ we all face in our current positions - but I dare say that is where the target audience may well be lurking. If there’s a more important place for it then I apologise.

Flying Clog

30th Apr 2020, 11:37

macdo

30th Apr 2020, 11:50

After the Thomas Cook collapse last year, a few guys decided to jack it in and do either something they had done in the past or pursue something new. At least 2 have gone for financial services, a couple back to LA Instructing, consultancy for CRM and a few more avenues I can't remember. The problem is that not many alternatives pay even close to a SFO's salary let alone a Captains, but needs must etc. and I doubt many will miss the working environment of 21st century aviation.

Wireless

30th Apr 2020, 12:43

As someone like stacks staring down the barrel of it going.

I've an HGV licence so I’m filling out the form to renew my tacho card. Provided (big if) I can find driving work not having driven a lorry for years then I can bring in some money. I’ve done it before it’s hard work and you’re treated like dirt but it’s a job. But beyond that no idea, I’m middle aged, been in flying twenty years, no degree, nothing else. Rabbit in headlights.

i just don't know.

RoyHudd

30th Apr 2020, 13:02

Voluntary work involving driving is good for the interim. Generally one receives reimbursement for mileage, and possibly mobile, It is a good way to keep busy, and allows one to demonstrate at interview that you have done something constructive with your time. And it can be rewarding spiritually, just to do good for others. (I am not preaching religion here, btw)

Of course, there's always Netflix...

A320baby

30th Apr 2020, 13:44

WestonFlyer

30th Apr 2020, 14:01

I lost my job. I've only 1500 TT, most on the 73. I've been looking at getting the HGV licence and going down that route. I've an engineering degree but it's aviation related. Every job I've worked for the last number of years was in aviation so it's been very difficult to make the CV enticing to what little jobs might be available. Anyone else have any good recommendations?

Fletch

30th Apr 2020, 14:23

Since HGV driving seems to continually get mentioned here, what is the market like at the moment for HGV drivers?

I had just presumed there would have been a glut of drivers on the market, what with much of industry around the world closed. In the past it hasn't always been that easy to get a start driving if you do not have some sort of experience.
Like most others on here i'm a one trick pony type of guy. All my employment "plan B's" seem to have disappeared in the last month.

A320baby

30th Apr 2020, 14:26

Ive been trying for a HGV job for the past month or so. There is nothing.

Fletch

30th Apr 2020, 14:42

I thought that might be the case. Tough times.

White Knight

30th Apr 2020, 14:44

32 years of professional flying... Now relearning woodwork and cabinet making which I enjoyed immensely as a teenager! Hope to still have my flying job of course but I'll let y'all know in six months.

Very best to all of you for the future:ok:

Uplinker

30th Apr 2020, 15:02

Likewise. I can do what I did before flying, which is television broadcasting - things like BBC, BT or SKY football, horse racing etc.

However, that has all stopped as well. Doh ! Bugger ! :ugh:

Good luck people; hang in there :ok:
.

Wireless

30th Apr 2020, 15:09

Don't forget your CPC as well. PM me if you need help with that.

Thanks, much appreciated. I had completed my CPC when made redundant before 6 years ago and returned to it. It expired so I need to do the 35 hours again. I’ve just read you can do courses online but only until June time.

crunchingnumbers

30th Apr 2020, 15:16

When a grad student asked Warren Buffet what industry they should consider for the future, he responded that they should follow their passion not a job. For many of us aviation was the passion but I'm sure it's not the only passion - often there is a second and/or even third choice. I was fortunate in that after 30 years of aviation, i could fall back to my other passion which was IT where I maintained currency/awareness during my aviation career. Heaven for me would be to marry the two but beyond the cockpit, innovation and deployment of technology can be very slow in the aviation sector - I haven't given up :8.

A degree or an ATPL infers the ability to learn and when coupled to the desire to adapt, no option should be off the table. In the IT world there are specific technology courses available and highly accredited certifications in demand areas which includes everything from help desk support as a starting point to full stack development, or even project coordination/management where experiential analytical skills, structure and process can be applied (for less technically inclined). Remember this - no matter what the technology framework, we will be increasingly storing massive amounts of data - 1) big data and AI, we will need to move it around - 2) Networking and finally all the data, networks and infrastructure must be secure - 3) Security. There are courses and certifications in all of these areas.

I've been lucky but even though it is no longer my career, i am truly saddened by the pain in the sector for all those who were and remain as passionate about aviation as myself. The very best of luck to all of you and blue skies.

Herdwick700

30th Apr 2020, 15:37

Drive trains. No debt and up to 70k plus operator depending

Jimmy The Big Greek

30th Apr 2020, 17:08

Pornostar....maybe????

Train2Plane

30th Apr 2020, 17:31

Drive trains. No debt and up to 70k plus operator depending

Train Driver here. Circa 61k for our company when qualified, 14-18 months of training. I know drivers who have grossed 6 figures with overtime etc. Was doing my commercial ratings for flying and grateful to have a career on the railway. Don’t just do it for the money. All driver training training stopped currently and recruitment for Trainee Drivers frozen. Not a career you can ‘just walk into’.
Good luck.
PM if anyone wants more details.

A320baby

30th Apr 2020, 17:45

Thanks, much appreciated. I had completed my CPC when made redundant before 6 years ago and returned to it. It expired so I need to do the 35 hours again. I’ve just read you can do courses online but only until June time. ive just done mine online, was actually a decent course.

Mooneyboy

30th Apr 2020, 17:58

Drive trains. No debt and up to 70k plus operator depending

I know a friend who went for train driver job but think it’s highly competitive to get especially for ‘outsiders’.

All though not redundant yet think I’ll be lucky to get through this and also a one trick pony.

If UK based checkout https://nationalcareers.service.gov.uk/ they’ve got quite a few free courses and since it’s linked to the government website believe there’s credibility to them. I’ve been doing an Excel course and hope to do more courses from there. Something extra to put on the CV instead of just flying.

Surely we’ve got to have developed some skills over the years relevant to the outside world of employment.

realECMLdriver

30th Apr 2020, 19:13

Hi everyone, long time lurker and first time poster!

First of all let me say how sorry I am to hear what you're all going through at the moment. It must be dreadful and I can't begin to imagine how stressful this all is.

I got into train driving after university as the pilot idea slipped further and further into the realm of dreams. I worked for the railway while I was a student to pay for my tuition fees, so I already had a vague understanding what driving entailed. Definitely something I wouldn't hesitate to recommend to anyone wishing to enter a new profession. After a few years of keeping a clean licence, no operational incidents etc I was lucky enough to be offered a job with what was then Virgin Trains East Coast (now LNER) and I can honestly say I've never looked back. We're currently on a 4 day, 35 hour week and where I'm based the basic salary is about £75k. Like my driver colleague above mentioned, with a little overtime then hitting 6 figures certainly isn't an impossibility. Add to that the final salary pension, free rail travel/parking benefits and it suddenly adds up to a good package. I do a little bit of overtime here and there and I got just under £91k last year. I understand nothing can beat the flying bug and that you haven't invested all that money to walk away and drive trains. Apart from the odd moment where I'm doing a prep (similar to your walk-arounds) and the sight of an A380 holding above the depot evokes a little jealousy, I can honestly say I can't be happier with this job and what it has done for my life.

I understand it won't appeal to all, but I'll happily reply to any PMs if you want any more information.

Best of luck to everyone.

hawker750

30th Apr 2020, 19:15

I feel for all you guys who have or will loose your dream jobs but the answer may be in your hands. I left BA IN 1982 and successfully ran a charter company for 30 years so I know a bit about the financial side of the business. The main problem is the fixed overhead is too high. How to get this down? The Staff own the airline, that is the answer. Staff costs come from profits only.
in 9 months there will never be a better time to start an airline. Cheap leases, loads of good pilots.
So if you want not only to fly but own an airline sign up.
cheers
Air Apparent

Meester proach

30th Apr 2020, 21:03

^^^^^^^
His inbox is full because he’s a new poster.

Truth be told, any job worth having will be in short supply right now.

Personally I’m thinking about Uber when the lockdown eases a little, low start up costs and just carry a hammer in case the fare tries to mug you. What’s not to like .

Jock Trapped

30th Apr 2020, 21:13

realECMdriver and Train2Plane I suspect your inboxes are full partly because you’re new (at least newly registered!) but probably a few of us jumping at the offer of info.

I’ll bet there are a few on here, myself included, that are tremendously interested in more of what you have to say!!

Maybe let us know when your inboxes are clear if the offer stands, or write more in public?!

Herdwick700

30th Apr 2020, 21:26

Anyone seriously interested in driving trains be prepared to train for a year or so (varies a lot) on a trainee rate which us variable but mainly around the 30k mark . Free travel five day weekends every three weeks final salary pension and a stress free secure job with a fantastic union behind you.

Head to railforums where there's a wealth of info. Trainee roles are common around London so book mark the companies career listings

realECMLdriver

30th Apr 2020, 21:26

Yes, I'm afraid so. I'm trying to keep it empty for as long as possible so keep trying and I'll get back to you!

I hear driver training is being paused for now while the regulatory bodies decide on how classroom and practical training can be done with the minimum of risk. I'd say for anyone interested, start polishing the CVs and hone your interview skills and prepare some answers that will have the recruitment/management team smiling. You've all, without a doubt, had some invaluable experience when it comes to the ABCs like teamwork, safety management, following rules and procedures etc.

So think back and try and recall as much detail about any event you can as they WILL pick apart everything you say and ask things like 'How did that make you feel?

Why did you do it? Was it the right thing to do? Basically STAR method 'Situation, Task, Action, Response' and they'll probe further and do things like ask you the same questions twice to see if you've picked up on it and whether you stick to your guns and give the same response. Hope this is helpful.

Train2Plane

30th Apr 2020, 22:52

For an insight into pay and conditions etc. for the various Train Operating Companies (TOC) and Freight Operating Companies (FOC) google;

Aslef Company Informtion

Aslef is our Union, as I am sure some of you are aware and are probably one of the strongest unions going.
Trainee rate at our TOC is just shy of 30k, once qualified for year 1 you are on 80% of full pay, year 2 90% of full pay and it’s not until year 3 you are on 100%.
Also as mentioned in a previous post, head to Rail UK Forums.... similar set up to Pprune but all railway related.
Trying to keep my inbox free also.

Chris the Robot

1st May 2020, 00:59

There are a lot of us train drivers who initially wanted a flying career but saw the cost and moved our ambitions to the railways. I did mention train driving in another virus-related flying careers thread, though since this is focused non-flying careers, it's probably better that I continue here and leave the other one to aviation.

As realECMLdriver has said, there are difficulties in training new drivers at the moment. Most parts of the training process require, at some stage, delivery in a practical environment and the various parties will need time to work out how to deliver the training whilst minimising risk. Some companies are still advertising (Avanti did very recently) for trainee drivers because the recruitment process is long, it can take many months, even a good year or so. The railway is slow when it comes to recruitment.

The recruitment process usually starts with an online application/sift that may involve some fairly basic aptitude/personality tests. Take a look at the 7 Non-Technical Skills published by the Rail Safety and Standards Board (RSSB), these are highly relevant. In particular, they are looking people who value safety, stick to the rules rules and who are honest.

Next up are the main aptitude tests. To obtain a train driving licence which permits you to drive trains on Network Rail infrastructure, you must pass all of these tests. The interview referred to above where they ask you how things make you feel etc. is technically one of these tests, it's known as a Multi-Modal Interview (MMI). It's competency-based but they will put you under a lot of pressure and interrupt a lot, It's done by a psychologist so they aren't to be fooled. You must pass all of the tests (about ten I think these days) to the national standard to make it through to the next stage. One fail results in a failed sitting and if you fail two sittings you cannot re-apply as a trainee driver for any train company which uses Network Rail infrastructure. The pass rate historically was something like 10%, preparation is absolutely vital and many who pass prepare thoroughly. Many train companies set standards higher than the national minimum, however failing to meet these doesn't count towards the "two strikes and you're out" rule. Your test passes are valid for up to five years so you can take them from one company to another, few companies will recognise them for more than three years. You are not directly competing against others during these aptitude tests

Next up is usually the management interview (though some places leave the MMI till last). There's no limit as to how many you can sit though of course individual companies may prevent you from reapplying to them for say six months or a year. It's basically an exercise to see if your face fits and you are competing with others. Some places have tried to impose demographic quotas but these seem to be unpopular with drivers and local management.

The last thing is the medical, this will be arranged by your prospective employer and will be done by their provider. I'd say it's similar to a Class 2 but stricter in some areas and less so in others.

Bear in mind that train companies pay for training which in itself takes at least a year and costs the company north of £100k. In the vast majority of cases and they will expect a return of service, so only apply if you don't plan on returning to flying any time soon. Places like LNER, Avanti and Cross Country in particular tend to see very few drivers leave.

A320LGW

1st May 2020, 01:19

I'm sure all the train drivers on here are well intentioned, but why on earth do you all flock to a pilot forum to tell us how how much fun you have out on the tracks and how great a job it is?

You've found a career that worked, great, now why on earth go to a forum intended to those who chose a different career path?

We are aware of train driving but for many I think it's not a suitable opportunity. The time it all takes in itself from applying to actually getting an interview then even starting could be so long that an awful lot will be getting called back by their former airlines as things pick up late this year and going into next year.

I think it's a bit much to embark on a full career and go through all the retraining effort, is there a bond? if not then how would one feel morally by taking the place, building up the bill for the company and then being gone after the first phone call to get back flying? That is a place that could have gone to someone who would have made a career for life out of it. You took their dream job on the railways when you didn't even want it. If there is a bond then how would one feel having built up such a big bill to have to pay back, all because they had ants in their pants and couldn't sit still for a bit?

I accept the situation is drastic and unprecedented, but I think cautious steps are required going forward, nothing so major and certainly not so soon. The direction of the chat in this thread has taken a somewhat premature path.

planesandthings

1st May 2020, 01:55

You've found a career that worked, great, now why on earth go to a forum intended to those who chose a different career path?

Each to their own. The thread title is quite clear and it loosely fits in. I for one in the first 5 years of my professional flying career with little to no training debt appreciate the insight into the railway industry and how much more supported it is and by contrast therefore really how much airlines take pilots for a ride. Train Company goes bust? Not to worry.. government operator takes over. No brexit or climate dramas either, and plenty enough to take home to fly for fun.

Anyway..I won't be applying straight away if made redundant but I can imagine their forums are far more relaxed than ours right now!

Transpond

1st May 2020, 05:38

I agree with A320 here... and whilst train driving does sound all perfect and rosy, it's not as straight forward to get into as some here may suggest.

First off, the competition to even get someone at a TOC to so much as look at your CV is almost impossible... There are very few trainee driver jobs on offer a year and when they do come around, applicants are in the 10's of thousands. And guess what? There's only 4 positions available! So yeah, I'll leave the maths to you on that one...I've often argued that in my opinion getting a train driving job is significantly harder than getting into the RH seat of a 737. I've been applying to TOC's for over a year now and haven't had so much as an assessment invite as of yet. For some perspective, I got accepted onto EZY's CTC course on my first ever attempt at applying. Also, being a pilot unfortunately won't get you any special treatment throughout the application phase, they're incredibly picky and selective and sometimes it feels like pure luck... besides, nobody will even look at your CV until the very last stages of recruitment, so prior to the final interview stages your background is pretty much irrelevant.

Adding to this, most TOC's now implement at 60 minute commute rule... fine, right? Not exactly, you have to live 60 minutes away from your base BEFORE you apply, most TOC's now don't even allow applicants to relocate on the condition of a job offer... I've had many applications rejected because of this. So how many different TOC's operate within 60 minutes of your address? I have two - one last hired new trainee's in 2014 and the other one last hired earlier this year and now probably won't again for another few years, this is exactly the kind of problem i'm talking about.

Of course, I hope none of you have to end up looking for alternative careers anyway! Good luck to you all! :)

guy_incognito

1st May 2020, 06:01

It's already been mentioned on this thread, and I've previously touched on it: aside from the lack of relevant qualifications offered by the majority of airline pilots, perhaps the biggest issue we're going to face is the perception that we'll be off as soon as a flying job turns up. This will prove to be an insurmountable obstacle for those without the means to demonstrate significant commitment to a new career path.

Personally, I'm not bothered about flying per se, but it's the only thing I'm realistically qualified to do without an expensive refresh of my prior qualifications. I was looking for a new career even before the current crisis, and it really isn't as simple to find something else as some on here seem to believe it is, especially if you expect a salary that's even an appreciable fraction of what you currently earn.

Jock Trapped

1st May 2020, 07:24

I'm sure all the train drivers on here are well intentioned, but why on earth do you all flock to a pilot forum to tell us how how much fun you have out on the tracks and how great a job it is?

To be fair to those posting, at least a couple of us asked with genuine interest and this thread is about life after flying. I for one am grateful for the responses.

I do like your sentiment about airlines calling back pilots that have been let go in a year or so, but where’s the guarantee in that? Any longer than that and the schools churning out cadets will be doing so again and those un-current on the outside won’t get a look in.

Driving Trains could be an interesting career shift and if it takes a while to break into that’s just comparable to ATPL exams, flying courses, MCC/JOC, application, aptitude tests, interview, sim, hold pool. Just this time, admittedly only if you make it amongst fierce competition, there’s a higher chance of keeping your job until retirement.

Thanks to those who posted, food for thought 👍

realECMLdriver

1st May 2020, 07:31

I see where you're coming from as I genuinely ummed and ahhed before posting. Wouldn't wish what's going on now on my worst enemy and I got the impression that there are some who are seriously looking for a change. I guess one reason I chose to speak up because I've lost count of the number of people who initially turned their nose up at me for saying I'm a train driver to then change their opinion when they hear all of the info in the previous posts. Many apply mid career having previously been unaware of things like pay, terms, holiday entitlement and stability. While I understand a lot of you may already know this, there are others that won't. Quite understandable too as you've poured everything into what you've achieved, so there's little to no reason to consider such a move. I thought I'd offer a little more insight into the role and if it ends up helping one out of the many thousands of you on here, then great!

Smokey Lomcevak

1st May 2020, 08:01

It’s interesting that trains came up so quickly in the thread - only a few weeks ago I stumbled upon a Trainee driver taking over the Scotrail twitter for the day, it made interesting reading, and I made a mental note to find out more in case the proverbial diverted fanwards.

Thanks to realECMLdriver and all who have replied - whether about trains or otherwise. I wonder if there are others out there with stories they would care to share... thanks in advance.

5000psi

1st May 2020, 08:24

Train2Plane

1st May 2020, 09:02

Again only posting as genuine questions have been asked and would like to help out where possible.
Not on here to gloat or rub salt in anyone wounds, far from it.
Joined pprune as I too had an ambition to fly commercially but never ended up doing so.
Honestly hope everything works out.

Porto Pete

1st May 2020, 09:21

Ignore the criticism. I am sure I am not alone, but posts such as yours are exactly the type of information I was hoping to learn from. Many thanks for your contribution.

Uplinker

1st May 2020, 09:46

Whoa fella !

They might be trying to help - in the same way that we would help them if they asked us questions about flying.

Bridgestone17

1st May 2020, 09:57

Cliff Secord

1st May 2020, 10:08

Ignore the detractors. It’s emotional times. Given the question of the thread I think all of us in the industry welcome any chat and thoughts. Train drivers, woodworkers, what ever - it’s all welcome chat as far as I’m concerned. Try not to get sensitive and tell these folk to buzz off.

Equally those trying to police others by telling them it’s too early - what you asking for - have some emotional empathy. Some cope by facing one step at a time. Other people cope by trying to imagine a future away. Doesn’t mean they’re gonna all immediately shred their licences and apply to be railway signallers

Also, don’t see no need for mods to bin this thread off. There’s hardly much of an industry left at the min so if this isn’t a relevant topic for “terms” don’t know what is

Fletch

1st May 2020, 10:10

Strong unions such as ASLEF and RMT have an awful lot to do with it. Also how many train drivers do the job for nothing just to gain experience plus the dreadful Pay 2 Fly schemes that were/are in operation in the aviation world. Train drivers don't trample over each other to get onto the "flight deck" either.

Totally agree. We as a group do not do ourselves any favours, particularly here in the UK.

Chris the Robot

1st May 2020, 10:39

Its amazing 2 transport related industries, both post privatisation, both limited operators. Both obviously desirable careers judging by the numbers that apply for the railways.

One funds all of the new enterent training, 4 day weeks and everyone happy.

The other, £100k plus to train, self funded, work max hours, treated like ..., etc etc.

How did we end up here? Genuinely interested. Some will say the unions, but that cant be it.

One of the most important aspects of this is the fact that would be drivers cannot pay for their own training. This means that there is never a surplus of newly qualified people desperate for their first job. Occasionally there are redundancies, recently these have been in the freight sector due to the closure of coal-fired power stations. ASLEF worked with various TOCs I believe to make sure that the drivers who wanted to stay in the industry had opportunities available. With regard to T&Cs, the union acts as a backstop to prevent TOCs from imposing things we don't want in our contracts.

The absence of large driver surpluses mean that companies have to compete for drivers, it's cheaper to take someone who's qualified elsewhere than someone who needs a full training course. If one company has a large retirement bulge coming up, the company next door might make their pay deal a bit better to avoid having their drivers poached. The appearance of Crossrail and the massive expansion of London Overground and Thameslink has done quite a lot for driver salaries at most of the London commuter TOCs because many were at risk of losing drivers. Ultimately, it comes down to supply and demand, if pilots want to restore terms and conditions, the unions have to put an end to the oversupply of 200-hour airline ready people. As I've said before, look at what the 1500 hour rule did for conditions in the US.

Another important thing is the paradigm, airlines are used to being able to get their way with pilots since the degradation of T&Cs has been going on for so long, so they demand a lot more than they otherwise would. On the railway, it's the opposite way round, there have even been a couple of occasions recently where unions have totally brass-necked it and the company has just said "yes" to the union's amazement. That said, union strength varies from company to company.

As for train drivers on a pilot forums, I have seen pilot threads on a railway forum, in fact one was created by the moderators on a rail forum to enable the railway crowd to discuss their various flying ambitions. I do know of at least one newly qualified pilot who came to the railway, he was on a zero-hours contract at a low-cost airline and it didn't pay the training loan.

When it comes to the railway, if a pilot could present a convincing case that the airline industry was not going to recover to it's pre-virus peak then that would no doubt help with recruitment. Also, since age is no-barrier to train driver training, someone who's taken an early retirement in aviation could enjoy a 10 year career on the railway. Trainees in their mid-fifties are a common sight.

realECMLdriver

1st May 2020, 10:44

Completely understand that these are emotional times, as mentioned above. I was almost ready to apply and put myself through training and I certainly feel I've gotten a lot from reading these forums over the years so if there's anything I can do to give a little back to those who are interested then I'd be all too happy to help.

I'll go as far as to say if anyone is travelling into/out of Kings Cross on the East Coast line, whether for leisure or commuting, feel free to let me know and if I'm available then I don't mind having a socially distanced chat about anything you wish to know.

covec

1st May 2020, 11:22

There was a scheme about 5 years ago whereby graduates with Science based degrees could apply to become "Doctor Assistant" or "Assistant Doctor" - like a PA (Pilot's Assistant) once was.

I guess Google could help - or writing to a local NHS Authority? I don't have the links but I do know about it as I mentioned to my Uni daughter.

Dare I suggest Politics? Run for MP? Or Local Council?

It may be possible to switch to Merchant Navy Deck or ETO Officer BUT normally it is a 3 year Cadetship with age limits (I was one). Times have changed and rules changed so it may be possible to study for the writtens and Orals but then you need seatime. If any of you are Yacht Masters or Day Skippers then that may be more viable - one of my Army students is doing that very thing now due to the flying issues - but he has experience on yachts.

advent

1st May 2020, 11:47

‘Covc’

You touched on something I was looking to offer forward.. Just a suggestion regarding yachts.

Wonderful ex colleague struck down with cancer that took away any imagination of regaining a UK or other class one med.

He took his skills to the local sailing school and after now some time at school and training is delivering for a good income .. Sailing boats all over the world.. Navigation, charted, timetables and people skills :).. Might be a little lonely at times but for a couple that wish to travel, it’s really small investment to gain a certificate to sail with others at first and gain miles, experience etc..

Just a thought, especially for those younger passionate types. Can always come back to flying

Ad...

Busdriver01

1st May 2020, 12:55

I know this is not the usual direction, (indeed, its almost always the opposite) but what do people think about applying to the RAF / RN / Army Air Corps? (or equivalent groups in your country - i'm UK based.) Obviously the salary is nowhere near what you earn at the airlines, but for someone who's young enough to be able to join (26 is the max. age I believe), who likely doesn't yet have too many other commitments other than the training loan , they could therefore cut their cloth to meet their new needs.

Anyone here with any experience of making that move, or is in at the moment and has any insight into how viable that is?

SOPS

1st May 2020, 13:10

Train Driver here. Circa 61k for our company when qualified, 14-18 months of training. I know drivers who have grossed 6 figures with overtime etc. Was doing my commercial ratings for flying and grateful to have a career on the railway. Don’t just do it for the money. All driver training training stopped currently and recruitment for Trainee Drivers frozen. Not a career you can ‘just walk into’.
Good luck.
PM if anyone wants more details.

I gave up flying after 22000 hours. I drive trains.. never been happier!!

Superpilot

1st May 2020, 13:39

If you're seriously considering jumping from aviation to something else, my advice is don't lock yourselves into any one single career. The day and age of a single line of work/career is over. Use the time wisely right now to learn a trade that can be practiced as a freelancer. Plenty of trades out there, it doesn't have to be something that involves manipulating or moving objects. Do something that can be scaled up and down as necessary or even done alongside a flying job. The flying bug will most likely return one day.

Cliff Secord

1st May 2020, 14:38

capt.sparrow

1st May 2020, 15:25

Well this is the 4th time I've lost my job as a pilot. I handed my notice in in December as was offered an April start at BA thinking this was the most stable job I'd ever have. This was retracted in March after I'd just finished line training my replacement at the old job..

The industry is ridiculous. Yes I've been paid very well, but the time away from home and constant uncertainty is for me now not worth it. So, I've just been offered a job as an Emergency Care Assistant for an ambulance trust. The money is terrible, but there is a clear career path up to through paramedic and beyond on published pay scales. The industry is recession proof and I sleep in my own bed every night. I can move anywhere in the country if I feel like it, and get an NHS pension when I'm done. The best bit for me is the people I see are truly grateful, and surprisingly medicine and aviation have learned a lot from each other.

LTCTerry

1st May 2020, 15:46

I lost a job in 2002. My undergraduate degree is nuclear physics. I had some experience with "special weapons" in a younger life. I was hired in 1993 to work in a facility that produced the plutonium for those very same devices. I was one of 27,000 people working there, with a focus on processioning the waste remaining from Pu production. I was laid off 9.79 years later (The number is important because for benefits they truncate rather than round. Pension is at 65 unless age 60 with ten or more years.)

There were six rounds of layoffs ahead of me eliminating 10,000 people from the workforce. I was let go in a group of 47. In 2002 people still wrote checks in the grocery store. The cashier would ask for a work telephone number. Thankfully I was an Army Reservist and I used that office phone number. What would have happened if I said, "Sorry, I don't have a job?"

The Army Reserve weekend-per-month income made a huge difference between going broke slowly or quickly.

Within several months I had found a job as a high school science teacher for the school year starting in August. I knew I would be ok, but it was depressing with no money to spare and a lot of time on my hands. Plus two young kids and newly divorced.

Eleven years later I left teaching and became an Army Civil Servant. I just had my sixth anniversary. I like what I do. I purchased my military time in my civilian retirement. I'm going to work one more year, then "retire" at age 61.

Why "retire" with quotes? I am going to start a new career. The local aviation charter company approached me a while back. They have used their flight instructors as SIC in their charter business (Part 135 if you care about FAA vocabulary). These instructors would get 1499 hours with a couple hundred as King Air SIC and go get an entry level airline job. So, the charter company is hiring/training experienced pilots with a tie to the community to be SIC. I just turned 60; I'm not looking for an airline career. I can, however, be SIC for several years, allowing a good return on their training costs. I have the opportunity to be Captain eventually. So, just as "Shelter in place" was ramping up I finished training and passed the checkride for FAA multi-engine commercial pilot. I have about 900 hours with 70 multi-engine. This would be a stepping stone for many, but it's a wonderful continued opportunity for me. :)

I don't care for the term "new normal" but it does often apply. Most everyone eventually "lands on their feet." Most clouds do "have a silver lining" (hmm), and "when life gives you lemons, you can make lemonade." Trite clichés don't always help, but most people will work something out. Having been there, I can sympathize with the loss of a professional salary and a decimated pension plan.

carmel

1st May 2020, 17:38

There's also another thread on FlyerTalk which might be of interest. Since these forums are predominately aviation professionals, it's another aviation related community to reach out to. Best of luck to you all during these difficult times.

For BA staff (and others) affected by the current pandemic (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/2016880-ba-staff-others-affected-current-pandemic.html)

Rocade

1st May 2020, 21:22

3500 hour, FO at a 'flag carrier';
I'm currently working my 3 month notice period, if I'm lucky I'll return in the seat next spring but I'm mentally and financially preparing for a 2-3 year 'break' (I'm also fully aware I might never manipulate the controls of an airliner again).

I have an HGV license I'm renewing for the short term but this fall I'll start training as an electrician. I can't see myself working 9-5 ever again and I've never heard of an unemployed electrician.... Also I see it as a good side-gig with flying if things brighten up.

Best case scenario I'll continue my flying career with a small contractor business on the side, worst case scenario I'll never fly again but be a certified electrician.

A320LGW

2nd May 2020, 00:15

Has anyone here considered trading on the stock exchange?

Riskybis

2nd May 2020, 05:55

Has anyone here considered trading on the stock exchange?

not sure people will want to spill precious savings when they don’t know what they are doing

BigEndBob

2nd May 2020, 08:10

When i was 17 i did the Christmas post for 8 days, would be a winter with a few inches of snow on the ground. But when i finished on the eight day, i was sad to finish. I really enjoyed walking the streets and people starting to recognise me and say hello. People busy going to work, mother taking kids to school. A real community spirit. I always thought if i couldn't get a job i would apply to the post office.
Instead i got a job in my other interest, engineering draughtsman. Which then paid for my aviation career.

I've also always had the attitude if not happy in a job, walk out. Something always turns up.

Lew747

2nd May 2020, 09:46

BigEndBob, try doing the post for 8 years, not 8 days like I did! Royal Mail was a decent enough job. It provided a means to an end and allowed me to self fund all my CPL/IR. I didn’t detest it, but the ‘good old days’ are long gone there too. No more offers of full time employment. Only part time contracts which most usually make up by doing overtime. Appalling management though and not a very well run firm.

I miss the colleagues, the banter and of course my old customers I used to deliver to. I don’t miss working outside in the wind and rain though :rolleyes:

scruggs

2nd May 2020, 10:17

This suggestion may not be for everyone, so apologies in advance. But if you have an engineering degree, some of you may wish to consider teaching Engineering in the Further Education sector. There's a national shortage of engineering lecturers in FE at the moment across disciplines such as Electrical/Electronic Engineering, Mechanical Engineering as well as more specialist disciplines such as Mechatronics, Robotics and Building Services Engineering.

Top scale FE Lecturer salaries tend to be in the £35-38k region, and because of the shortage, even if you don't have a teaching qualification such as a PGCE and have no prior teaching experience, colleges will sometimes salary-match to the most appropriate scale point. If you're currently earning above the £38k (which I suspect most of you are), colleges won't go above it, but they could very well put you straight in on top-scale. Annual holidays are in the 55-65 days-per-year region depending on the college. Teaching is in the region of 22-24 hours per week, and the rest is your admin time (preparation, marking etc).

Lecturing jobs are usually advertised on TES Jobs (https://www.tes.com/jobs) and FE Jobs (https://www.fejobs.com/), as well as on college websites.

Teaching isn't for everyone, but if anyone wants more information, please feel free to PM me. There are 2x full-time, permanent Mechanical Engineering lectureship vacancies about to be advertised at my college (Midlands area).

I wish you all the very best.

LessPepper

2nd May 2020, 11:12

Has anyone here considered trading on the stock exchange?

The professionals will clean you out. Much as you would win, if you made a bet with a stock broker, about who can fly the best raw data ILS.

A320LGW

2nd May 2020, 11:30

I get your point and I do not contest the argument made. But are there not large numbers of independent (amateur if you will) traders who still manage to make money out of it? Considering many markets and stocks are on the floor (though fast recovering in many sectors so one needs to be quick) is it not a good time to get involved? The stocks can only go up I mean.

I'm not speaking of investing in volatile markets or companies, but there are a number of 'safe' investments that can allow you to sleep at night and which show solid overall growth over a number of years, if one can see past the day to day ups and downs.

LessPepper

2nd May 2020, 12:14

You’re right, I know such a professional amateur. But it is real work, this guy hasn’t taken a holiday in years, it’s serious business if you want to beat the market and get a return above that which the index would offer. My point was if you think it’s an easy dabble, it’s a bit like saying being a pilot is about pushing one ‘Autopilot’ button and that’s about it.

Kirks gusset

2nd May 2020, 12:17

Retired from full time flying in 2018 and initially kept contact with the training organisations as a TRE,,however after about 6 months of lets say "odd hours" sims i.e those the full time guys didn't want to do I realised my enthusiasm was draining away and after a look in the mirror I had become the "old fart" that I objected to when I started training in the 90's.. Knocked the sim work on the head and started working evenings 3 days a week at a supermarket warehouse, quite a good happy bunch there but it didn't take long for the rumour mill to turn on and every tea break was asked "did you ever get scared, or what emergencies did you have" and was constantly called "captain" in a jocular way. Quite enjoyed the peace and relative lack of accountability and responsibility but the absence of mental stimulus meant I couldn't maintain motivation or easily integrate and was never going to a Christmas do, moreover I didn't want to feel I was "judging" my work colleagues as I quickly learnt they were intact happy and content in their employment, so I left and applied to A DIY chain as a "customer advisor', drawing on my interpersonal skills and logical brain!. After 4 months I was summoned to the head office and asked if I would consider being a store manager, but this would mean moving, which for me is not an option. When I enquired "why" they had asked me, i was told that whilst many customer reps try and "sell" things when giving advice, the feedback they had was that I had been helpful but not pushy and the returning customer count for foot traffic had increased. With Covid we are basically shut down and I'm thinking of simply doing voluntary driving work for a special needs organisation where they have retention problems simply as people do not want to adhere to health and safety procedures and work practices. I guess the moral of the story is that we become robotic and used to operating in a strict procedural environment and transitioning to "civvy street" make take some time before you find your niche. Don't disregard the people skills and logical thought processes ingrained in you and the ability to manage others, play on this at any interview. One word of caution, I would say that 95% of the "interviewers " felt intimidated by my previous experience and authority and it took perhaps 10 minutes of quiet talking, if you like puffing their feathers, to get them to see I was genuine about wanting a different career. Curiously, and perhaps uncomfortably, the senior management in these companies seemed to make a "B-line" towards me when doing visits and I felt this was more of a social class thing than anything else. Accept as a retired Pilot you will probably never be "one of the lads" and adjust your persona accordingly, I used to tell them under the tough was a hells angel waiting to escape! Asked why I still want to work, even with a comfy life, I told them to preserve the status quo at home and stop me wrecking my marriage, again, takes time to adjust.

Uplinker

2nd May 2020, 13:17

Nice one, Kirk, good post :ok:

Mrs Uplinker, (a former purser, amongst other things), cannot even get an interview at the local supermarkets for shelf stacking. We cannot understand why, but their shelf stackers etc. are young, and the management might be put off by Mrs U's experience and abilities. She has now started dumbing down her CV.

We, (pilots and aircrew), probably believe that our reliability and experience with customer care and operations in a highly technical and exacting environment will make us more employable, but maybe not?

Luke258

2nd May 2020, 16:57

Anyone got experience in leaving aviation to join med school?

hunterboy

2nd May 2020, 17:44

Wow...I guess you’d have to be relatively young to countenance Med school....?

Luke258

2nd May 2020, 19:17

I wish I was. But I guess that depends on what you call young. Anyway that's besides the point. I believe one is never too old to learn new things.

Luke258

2nd May 2020, 22:12

Please forget the idea of leaving aviation to walk into a med school or becoming an investment banker, if your only skill or qualification is flying then unless you can fly you will be on the minimum wage.
Maybe you got a different idea of med school, but this is to achieve a different degree and follow a different Job. The qualification you get after completing med school/University. That's Kind of the point here, to achieve a qualification in an interesting and Well respected profession. So my question is, if anyone done that before. I don't need a lecture on my Chances without a qualification outside aviation.

msba

3rd May 2020, 02:18

For anyone that may be interested i just saw an aviation lecturer job going at Southampton University, could be a golden opportunity to see through this awful time.

bringbackthe80s

3rd May 2020, 05:52

Guys just to give it a little break, aviation is vital to any country’s economy. It’s simply needed. So let’s wait it out, hopefully those who lose their jobs will be back flying soon enough, but let’s not forget that pilots and aviation are a fundamental need of any nation, and they should be treated as such. In the meantime let’s wait as calmly as possible. We are getting more nervous by the day, but if we understand that they MUST have airlines and pilots, everything is not so black all of a sudden.

Whitemonk Returns

3rd May 2020, 08:16

I looked at med school out of curiosity and it's a non starter, takes about 9 years to fully qualify and when you factor in the clinical and university fees (in the UK or US) it is probably MORE expensive than training to be a pilot all over again!

guy_incognito

3rd May 2020, 09:06

Although it would almost certainly take significantly longer than nine years to qualify as a consultant, in the UK anyone with a good degree is eligible for graduate entry medicine which is a four year course. The NHS pays the fees in year four. You'd be working as a doctor from year five onwards on the normal NHS pay scale. It is an option, but winning a place to study is far more competitive and difficult than getting a space on an airline tagged scheme at an ATO, and all applicants will have a massive amount of healthcare experience, whether extensive volunteering or working in allied professions such as nursing, optometry, pharmacy etc.

Last year when I was discussing it with my AME, he did say that I'd be absolutely mad to consider medicine, and he's actively discouraged his own kids from going down the medicine route. Sound familiar?

Law would be another possible option. For graduates with any degree, the Graduate Diploma in Law is a one year course that puts you in the same position as a law graduate to apply for the professional phase of training and apply for trainee lawyer positions.

Last year when I was discussing it with a family friend who is a barrister, he did say that I'd be absolutely mad to etc.

Luke258

3rd May 2020, 09:12

Well it works a bit different where I am from. The whole course takes 6 years to completely, then afterwards you work for 5 years as an intern to be able to specialize in a specific direction. Studying is possible in easter europe and won't be very hard to get in.

capt.sparrow

3rd May 2020, 09:43

It's possible. As we all have plenty of time I would suggest reading 'who moved my cheese' a very short management book about dealing with change, and the different way people do or don't do it. Some deny it it's happening, some will wait around for something to happen and others will get going with something else.

Meester proach

3rd May 2020, 13:19

Yes, it’s a tricky one convincing HR bods you will be happy in a £25k job when you’ve been a god of the skies.....

Hard to be taken seriously, even harder to convince you’ve had enough and want to make a clean break of it

GoldenGooseGuy

3rd May 2020, 17:36

I was facing this predicament in 2009, when the airline industry was being crushed due to the financial crisis, and had no backup options because of a useless Professional Pilot type of degree that wasn't transferable to the real world. I tried applying everywhere, but even with a few friends vouching for me, all of my resumes were rejected because there was no experience overlap. After starting a Master's in Finance and attending career fairs, still no luck because automated resume systems just kicked my resume out at large firms.

The savior ended up being a small business government defense contractor with less than 50 employees who specialized in aeronautical data. I emailed an actual person my resume and they offered to hire me at a rate not quite as high as my previous regional airline captain level, but considerably better than first officer. They bought me time to finish my degree and practice working with tech knowledge like databases and scripting, which I then applied to the finance industry and was able to break into asset management, where I've been ever since, working as a financial manager in a fintech role.

I've chronicled the entire process of changing my career in my blog in the hopes it might help other pilots in a similar situation (I can't post the link because I don't have 10 posts on the forum here, but it's called the Golden Goose Guide). Feel free to let me know if you have any questions.

TRENT210

4th May 2020, 01:37

My outlook on this whole situation seems to be a little more Que Sera Sera than most.

Im 30 and currently furloughed after nearly 2 years in the business with redundancy very likely. However I never expected to get a job in the flight deck in the first place. It’s not the “norm” for my upbringing.

I’m from a very working class family and I went the down the working multiple jobs route to pay the £70k for modular training, qualified at 23 and my parents didn’t contribute a penny blah blah blah. (I’ll put the violin away now)

When most of my flight training pals got their first jobs it wasn’t so much of a big deal to their family’s. After all if they hadn’t become pilots they would have been lawyers, doctors or in finance etc. In their social circles it was just expected to have those kinds of high flying careers.

For me and my social circle it was a massive achievement. My family and most of my home town friends work in mundane office, retail type jobs paying under £25k. So to them me becoming a pilot was the talk of the town and not always in a positive way. It’s funny how envious people can be of success.

Even the skippers comment on how I’m the “roughest” pilot they’ve ever met. Honestly sometimes in the crew room I feel like Leonardo DiCaprio in that scene in Titanic where he joins the first class passengers for dinner.

However I can 100% understand the fear some pilots (especially those brought up in the upper middle class) have who’s siblings and family friends children etc all have high flying jobs.

Let’s face it there aren’t many jobs that you can just switch to that pay the same as your average pilot gig and we can’t all be train drivers. Falling from grace is an embarrassing and worrying prospect.

My biggest fear is losing the opportunity to fly and not the reduced income. Earning more than £30k for me was always a dream and one that I’ve achieved. But with the way I’ve been brought up, earning £25k in some boring office job isn’t such a worry but more of a minor financial inconvenience.

I still haven’t got out of that working class lifestyle: peanuts mortgage, old banger on the drive, the love of a £4.99 Wetherspoons breakfast etc etc.

I feel sorry for some of my colleagues that have a terrible shock to the system fast approaching: leased Audi’s that need to be paid for, the prospect of taking little Mary out of private school or downsizing the 4 bed detached house in Surrey.

It’s very hard for some people to realise you can have a happy life in a job that pays less than the national average. Overtime your lifestyles will adjust accordingly, you’ve just got to stay positive.

I really hope in 12 months time we are all laughing at how scared we were about losing our wings having gained or retained our flying jobs.

36050100

4th May 2020, 07:41

Hey Trent210

You can be my wingman anytime!

Meester proach

4th May 2020, 08:25

Yeah , very true, Trent 210.

I’ve never lived up to the salary , because I’ve never trusted this industry . Thus if I have to do a less well paid job, we will survive.

And you are also right about the sort of people who get jealous about the whole pilot thing ( I’ve met a fair few ) and they are always from the same demographic

vlieger

4th May 2020, 08:45

My outlook on this whole situation seems to be a little more Que Sera Sera than most.

My biggest fear is losing the opportunity to fly and not the reduced income. Earning more than £30k for me was always a dream and one that I’ve achieved. But with the way I’ve been brought up, earning £25k in some boring office job isn’t such a worry but more of a minor financial inconvenience.

I still haven’t got out of that working class lifestyle: peanuts mortgage, old banger on the drive, the love of a £4.99 Wetherspoons breakfast etc etc.

This is well written and sums up my experience too. Stoicism on a personal level helps to survive in this cruel world.

TRENT210

4th May 2020, 09:02

It must be so scary for some of the pilots I’ve met along the way, that went integrated at 18, who are now mid 30’s on £100k+. Most of which have never done a single days work outside the flight deck in their lives.

If they lose their pilot job there isn’t many jobs (if any) that pay that much without serious retraining. Only about 20% of UK taxpayers earn over £40k so it’s clear to see there won’t be high flying jobs for all the grounded pilot.

Getting passed HR is a nightmare. I’ve been doing temp office work these last couple of weeks to top up my furlough money. Even though it’s temp the company still want you to be available to them until they don’t need you not until you don’t need them anymore. So to get passed the first hurdle I told them I’d been made redundant from the airline and my base captain kindly backed it up on my reference. The interview consisted of a 5 min Skype chat and I was offered the job on the spot.

I went into the office for the first time thinking to myself keep the flying job under the radar... boom I’m sat about 3ft away from someone I went to school with, someone I have on Facebook. So now the whole office knows I’m a pilot. It’s a very surreal situation, almost like they don’t know how to talk to me as just a regular work colleague. I’ve been asked multiple times by the same person what the scariest part of flying is so either he doesn’t listen or he’s just trying too hard to make conversation.

Although I’m only hoping to be there temporarily I’ve already accepted I’ll never be “one of them” through no fault of my own. I don’t march up and down the office in my uniform nor do I start every conversation with “when I was a pilot...”. I’m actually from their social circle so I can only imagine how they would treat Lawrence or Hugh the privately educated, been in the business since puberty, pilot

VRFlyer

4th May 2020, 13:32

Commuting Pilot

5th May 2020, 00:21

What an incredibly emotionally mature post. I’m at the other end of the career ladder but I truly hope I share a flight deck with you at some point. In fact, sod the job, just name the pub and I’ll buy you a pint!

macdo

5th May 2020, 07:25

Good post, you are not alone in your background. I have met a good few along the way that grew up on council estates or had outside toilets as kids. One advantage we have, as I discussed Thomas Cook going down last year with a colleague of a similar background, is that having been poor in the past, the adjustment back to a smaller income is fairly straightforward mentally. Like you, I have a banger on the drive, no mortgage, the kids went to state school (and Russell Group Uni's) and enough modest toys to keep me happy. I wish you all the best for your next job. Best bit of advice for the future, when you have a Captains salary, only have a First Officers outgoings and a years salary in the bank.

AKSAMAKSAM

5th May 2020, 08:50

Having the support of family and partners at this time is increasingly important, although what I really don't want is the sympathy vote, food parcels and embarrassed looks about birthday presents and household expenses. I have 2 young chidden, they don't understand the whole thing and it is important that we as parents send the message that "life goes on" .Accepting the fact it will probably be 18 months to 2 years before anything crops up on the aviation front I'm applying to places where I think I can adapt my skill set and become a team member, rather than try and work in isolation. My shots so far have been: NHS Paramedic training, Civilian Jobs at Police, National Trust park wardens, and Volunteer Life boat crew! rather selfishly I also considered roles which a 6 year boy may want his dad to do!. The world has changed, we have to change with it for our own sanity. My farther was 36 years in the Navy and when he retired at 95 he was literally a "lost soul", OK the armed forces have social clubs and venues for retired folks that allow them to bond and share war stories etc, but this was really to allow "decompression". I've a family regimented daily routine and keeping self discipline and standards will help if and when I get called up for an interview. Good luck to all..

CASBO

5th May 2020, 09:43

Sholayo

5th May 2020, 09:48

I tried that with my 'career advice for pilots' thread a week or so ago. Queue lots of burying heads in sand, anger, and eventually the thread has disappeared off Rumours and News thanks to the moderators.

Good luck to all.
One thing you are lacking and you'll need to pursue career outside aviation is COMMUNICATION SKILLS AND EMPATHY.
Your post was among worst ever here on PPRuNe, sir.
Yes, you were right, but the way you wrote it closed doors for any discussion.
Sorry.

Sholayo

5th May 2020, 10:04

Maybe you got a different idea of med school, but this is to achieve a different degree and follow a different Job. The qualification you get after completing med school/University. That's Kind of the point here, to achieve a qualification in an interesting and Well respected profession. So my question is, if anyone done that before. I don't need a lecture on my Chances without a qualification outside aviation.

I think it's like scenario for 45 yrs old who wanted to become a pilot back then in 2010-2019.
You need a lot of time, money and patience to work long hours on minimum wage before you break even.
While MDs will be in high demand in forseeable future - even if we would beat COVID tomorrow - it takes years to graduate and years to get good position "in the industry".
I personally know couple of people who managed to get paid pilot job after 40, but I never heard of any career changer to medicine.

One thing I would suggest is the same people were getting on how to get 0 to ATPL on a budget. Come to Poland, education is cheap, living costs low (assuming studies outside of Warsaw), streets are safer then in large cities in US or EU (this may change due to unemployment skyrocketing). And the diploma you get is valid in entire EU.

cabbages

5th May 2020, 10:33

TRENT210

5th May 2020, 11:13

Why be so incredibly defeatist?? The skills/experience that got you to the nice airline gig will get you to another nice place but you must set out to apply them. Que sera sera will have you bulldozed by the motivated competition.

The industry is in a terrible place. Those who survive this crisis still have to face the forces of a globalised workforce willing to work for vastly less money than Europe/US salaries, and we hold a skillset that is dumbed down by the day.

The writing is on the wall, folks. Act to protect your future prospects.

I think you misunderstood my post. I’m not being defeatist. If I do get make redundant I will try my hardest to get back in the flight deck, just like I did to get in. If it’s not a flight deck job I’ll try my hardest to get the best paid / interesting job I can.

My point is that I feel lucky that my lifestyle won’t have to change much if I end up having to take an “averagely” paid job because it’s what I’m used to. Compared to some people (and it’s not exclusive to pilots) I’m not financed out of my backside with a big mortgage and cars on the never never etc.

p.s the skippers comments about me being the roughest pilot they’ve ever flown with is said as banter. They also admire my achievement.

davidjohnson6

5th May 2020, 15:24

It was mentioned further up thread, but I'd encourage people to take a look at working in IT. Even with a recession looming, there are still jobs being advertised

Forget about getting into Google at day 1 (you need to know a lot of computer science / algorithms) but there are plenty of online vendors which will teach you the basics of Java or Python as well as a ton of other things that take your interest - reckon on maybe 3 months practice with fees well under 1,000 pounds... of course you need your own PC, reliable Internet and being willing to put in the time practising as well. From there, your initial gig might pay 30k, but that kind of money is just for a 'foot in the door' job to build credibility... after 12 months of learning more in the evening you then move to a better gig

I looked at the 4 year post grad medicine option many years ago... it only works if you are under 35, can pass the (demanding) science entry exams and have a year or more healthcare experience - either as a volunteer or professional. 4 years gets you to the level of junior doctor - a few more years to qualify as a GP, or even more to be a consultant

Law is another option - but the UK has a surplus of solicitors (lots of work is done by non-lawyers now - just need a lawyer to supervise) and legal aid cuts has trashed the livelihood of many barristers

squidie

5th May 2020, 20:28

]I do IT, pretty much this is what I did but only because I couldn’t afford to progress further from PPL(A) with NR. Unless I was happy to not drive or live with my Mum throughout all my 20s then I knew I had to change course.

It worked, some 8 years later I’m well into a £40k role and can afford my own house, decent car and flying.

Lew747

5th May 2020, 21:58

[QUOTE=TRENT210;10771761]My outlook on this whole situation seems to be a little more Que Sera Sera than most.

TRENT210,

I thought I was reading my own autobiography looking over your post. I’m 29 and nice to see somebody who’s had a similar upbringing to myself. I think it’s so important to stay humble, modest and never forget your roots. I never took the job for granted and always appreciated how much of a lucky position I was in. I really hope this furlough period ends and we can get back doing what we love.

flash8

5th May 2020, 22:31

Graduated in Computer Science from a decent UK Uni, dot com boom, made easily enough for CPL/IR (shoutout to VFC and Harvs!) in Canada and a 737 TR, worked SE Asia for a few years on the classic thanks to a huge break that many pray for (and I got), realised this wasn't for me (and had some other issues), quit in some style (walked out), eventually they gave me a reference (a story by itself) and went back to IT, and within a few years was back on track, still maintain some interest (hence still on the site) but nothing would have enticed me back.

I certainly don't (unlike some) put myself on a pedestal and I've never experienced (like one poster) the awe and "feeling different" from their new work colleagues, most of those colleagues incidentally don't give a damn and (in my case) only one or two showed any interest whatsoever.

Former Captain now a Lawyer, F/O now an owner of a chain of guesthouses, F/O now running a large Moscow club (part of a chain), myself, IT Consultant, all part of the old base.. long gone.

Some seem to harbour the thought that life outside aviation is non-existent, or somehow a step down.

shiningstarofcheso

6th May 2020, 00:49

If you are mortgage free then a career break is always nice otherwise it’s a choice between temporary (few years) vs perm career change, and for each one of those, max cash vs work/life balance.

For Good cash and quick short term training:

- IT as others have said. Vendors like Le wagon can teach you from zero to hero in about 3 months everything you need to design and build an app from scratch to a developer standard - enough for you to go it alone or get a junior developer job. It might spark your interest and decent ‘qualified’ pay. Adds to the cv.

-trading if you’ve got the balls, either personally or in FS. You’ve certainly got the analytics and decision making capabilities. Experience is less an issue if you can demonstrate to employers your logic on a trade based on what you foresee playing out, and show you have skin in the game personally. Some people are naturals and some of the best I know have no financial qualifications but can see implications of world events 4 steps ahead of others.

-teaching - easy to get the qualification technically provided you can deal with the practical skills. Decent pay and in demand, lots of life experiences to share.

If it was me, I’d take a break, study python and apps development online at home on a zero to hero type course. Good for the brain, the cv and you have multiple ways in 3, 6 or 12 months to exit or take further depending on what aviation is doing. It’s practically what every Finance professional does when they have been made redundant over the past year. It’s an area that people have not yet embraced and so you are still competitive.

I personally think demand will be needed 1-2 years down the line, definitely when a vaccine is touted, and so wouldn’t overcook this.

Meester proach

6th May 2020, 07:45

I think I’ll try and find something a bit more exciting than App development .

The reason a lot of pilots got into aviation was because they actually like it and had an interest in it.

I’d rather a humble paying job that doesn’t make me die of boredom

BigEndBob

6th May 2020, 08:57

So no one's thinking of becoming a flying instructor on £10K-£15k year.
That's if there will be any flying clubs left after all this.

Still might be a lot of ex airline pilots wanting to be checked out and rent aircraft...just to keep their hand in.

portsharbourflyer

6th May 2020, 09:50

Shame really, instructing just before the covid outbreak was finally starting to pay some decent/survivable salaries at certain establishments.
While ME/IR instructors have always received reasonable to good money, several of the large schools has started offering SEP IRI salaries in the region of 35 to 40K a year plus benefits on top, the overall packages with the joining bonus were over >40k a year.
Still below the Jet FO salaries but better than most turboprop FO gigs (Blue Island only pay the ATR Captains about 40k) a year. .

However I suspect a sudden influx of FIs (from fresh qualifiers) and those from the Airlines coming back to revalidate will soon see these terms eroded back to the flight pay only deals of before.

Philoctetes

6th May 2020, 09:51

Flying in a manual skill that requires mental agility
Thus pilots are good with their hands and brains
I have found great satisfaction and rewards in doing up property for resale - but be careful in the properties you select!
You will be amazed at how much you can do yourself with research and a logical approach.

portsharbourflyer

6th May 2020, 12:00

"Flying is a manual skill" Not sure that statement hold for those that went 200 hours straight to an Airbus.

I think in the current climate property development isn't going to be that viable noting that house prices are predicted to fall. That said there may be a lot of repossessed houses in the next 12 months going cheap, but unless you have the cash to buy and can wait for the market to recover before selling I can't see it is something that will yield an immediate income.

Meester proach

6th May 2020, 22:00

I’m thinking maybe five years there may be a few jobs suitable. Until then it’d better be somewhere else , doing something in the ground

Self_Loading_Cargo

7th May 2020, 16:43

Doctor here. Reading these posts I felt that I had to comment.

Firstly I would like to thank all of you that are part of project wingman. I work on a COVID-19 ward and it is extremely heartening to have a cup of coffee and de-stress. Quite a number of my colleagues have been off sick and it plays upon one's mind as to when one will catch it and what affect it will have, so a cup of tea and a welcome smile is most appreciated. I feel great empathy for all of you at an uncertain time.

For me it was a decision between Medical School and Flying in 2012. For a variety of reasons I chose medicine.

Reading these posts, I thought it a good idea to share some of my experiences.

Between applying to medical school and starting the course takes a year if you are successful at first application.
Medical school is competitive, but as mature students and professionals you will be looked on favourably.
In the interim you could do a Masters degree, volunteering or similar.

It is a minimum of 4 years of medical school. You can only apply for 4 medical schools per year. The five year courses are less competitive than the 4 years courses.
If you are sufficiency well heeled there is a private medical school based in the UK which will allow you to short-circuit the admissions cycle. Be warned it expensive. You could consider an Eastern European course but there are questions around medical degree reciprocity after Brexit - so be warned that if you study there your degree MAY not be recognised by the GMC after we leave Europe.

Medical school is hard but enjoyable. On completing your medical studies you then apply for your 'foundation training' which is a 2 year course. You gain your licence to practice after the first year.

Your pay is as follows:
England - starting £28k
Scotland - £24k plus an intensity supplement (banding), of between 0 - 100%.

BMA has the pay scales - I can't post links.

This is for 48 hours on average per week, averaged out over 6 months.

FY1 and 2 are the hardest. In FY1 regularly pulled 100 hour weeks because the ward was understaffed and I felt that I had to stay. In retrospect I was perhaps slow and inefficient. In my first 4 month rotation of FY1 I drank a bottle of wine a night to cope with the stress. Often during the day I went without breaks.
There are lots of night shifts (12 hours typically 20.00 - 08.00). You do not sleep during your shift.

You can be based at any hospital for your FY1+2 and you are often moved between them, without much control. It is not unusual to have a 1 hour commute each way plus a 12 hour night shift. I have been woken up by the rumble strips driving home on more than one occasion. Now we are limited to 4 night shifts which is more reasonable.

Mid-way thought FY2 you apply to your speciality, ranking training programmes across the county. If you are lucky and do well at selection you will have a programme close to you but again you will be required to commute to different hospitals for training.

During your speciality training your salary increases to £33k in Scotland, £38k in England. There are uplifts for nights etc, depending on which country you work in.

The minimum time for speciality training is 3 years for GP. For any other specialty it is between 5-8+ years plus sub-specialty training.

GPs are independent contractors and can expect to earn £450-550 per day locum (zero hours) rates, or £80k+ as a salaried GP. Partners own their own practices and earn about £100k - you can increase this, sometime significantly, if you are prepared to travel and undertake night or out of hours extra work.

Consultants start on £80k and through a system of incremental annual rises progress to about £120k over the course of their careers. There is limited scope for private work outside of london and procedural specialties such as orthopaedic surgery for example. Consultants can locum over and above their annual contract.

On balance, it will take you a minimum of 11 years from today to become a GP, and a minimum of 13 years to be a consultant.

Being a doctor is a unique privilege, however from a purely financial perspective I cannot say that it is a good move and indeed I regretted my choice on a number of occasions. Mainly after a string of night shifts or on occasions where I have had to miss family events due to poor rota management.

Hope this is informative.

TRENT210

8th May 2020, 00:49

Thanks for the in-depth post.

The one thing I would be asking my fellow pilots... should pilots really thinking about going down the medicine route unless they have a passion for it?

Would it be wrong to go down that route purely for financial reasons and not because you have a passion or interest in medicine?

bringbackthe80s

8th May 2020, 07:20

Disregarding the fact that I personally know cases of doctors who are professional pilots or the other way around, I wonder how we ended up talking about such a drastic career change when we are supposed to be flying out of passion?

guy_incognito

8th May 2020, 08:09

Who says we are supposed to be flying out of passion?

Where does this bizarre notion comes from that you should only be a pilot if you have a burning passion for all things aviation? I'm doing it because I get (got) paid well over £100k a year while having more time off than I would in the majority of other jobs. I wouldn't change career if I didn't have to because it means a hit to my family's lifestyle, at least in the short term and possibly permanently. It looks like circumstances will dictate a career change is necessary. I won't miss flying, but I will certainly miss the salary and the time off.

Unless you're lucky enough to do something you really enjoy, which doesn't apply to the majority of people, you work to give you the lifestyle you want and nothing more than that.

twinboom

8th May 2020, 09:32

“What color is your parachute” (not a typo, US spelling) by Richard N Bolles is THE book to read for would-be career changers. Updated, sometimes substantially, every year so there is a 2020 edition on booksellers websites but a - recent - cheap second hand copy would do. I found one top tip in it for me, which worked - twice! So it repaid its cost a thousand fold. All the airlines I have ever worked for went bust - although the last one not until three years after I retired so I’m glad I am not in your boat but I was, more than once. Good luck and persevere.

tinmug

9th May 2020, 15:53

JohnMcGhie

10th May 2020, 00:45

Some of you are considering a career-change. I've been there... twice. My only tip is "try to put the emotion to one side and do the next right thing, one day at a time." I know: easier said than done, but you've all done the odd missed approach -- just do the next right thing step by step; the alternative is messy and expensive.

The IT field has been mentioned here, but here's one to consider: Business Analysis. It doesn't have to be in IT, business analysts are popping up throughout the commercial world these days: and the basic qualification can be gained in three to six months: https://www.theknowledgeacademy.com/courses/business-analysis-training/

I chose Business Analysis because it is one of the jobs that can not be automated out of existence in the near future. It's mainly contract consulting work, so relatively well-paid.

And the commercial heavy-jet aircraft captains I have met would do it superbly. Among the leading requirements:

Ability to negotiate at a very senior level
Ability to lead a team to a good outcome when one or more idiots are trying to derail the project
Ability to work effectively both independently and as a team member
An analytical approach
Good attention to detail
Sufficient humility to keep asking "what makes you say that? Please explain what you want the outcome to be?"
Sufficient intelligence/imagination to be able to forsee an outcome three or four steps into the future
Sufficient core inner strength to avoid being browbeaten into doing something wrong when some stuffed-shirt oxygen thief is trying to pull rank (without getting fired!)

Sound like the sort of person you expected to find in the left hand seat last week?

Since most of the responses here are from UK members, I picked a UK training organisation -- I don't know if they're any good or not. The international meal-ticket is a Practitioner membership of the International Institute of Business Analysts. To find out which are your good local schools, ring one or two large companies locally and ask to speak to their Lead Business Analyst, tell them why you want to know, then ask them what they would recommend. Don't be thrown by the Indian accent: nearly all the good ones are Indian :) Sometimes the switchboard won't know who their chief business analyst is: in which case ask for the Chief Information Officer, their assistant will know.

Hope this helps

Fliegenmong

10th May 2020, 13:08

PilotLZ

10th May 2020, 13:42

Not being a train driver myself, I imagine that it's not as simple as learning the difference between a red light and a green light. Trains are big and complex machines and presumably a driver needs to know a thing or two about how they work and what can go wrong. Then you have the tracks and infrastructure - all the power systems, signals, junctions etc. There's probably extensive training in human factors and safety as well. While many of the concepts behind the aforementioned are familiar to pilots at least to some extent, do bear in mind that courses are designed for those who don't have any extensive technical background. And then it's the practical part, which is likely dependent on instructor availability, just as airline line training. And you would probably need one to know what they are doing and be confident when releasing them to drive a train across the country all by themselves and with a couple of hundreds of people in the back.

Meester proach

10th May 2020, 16:02

They have to do extensive route learning as well.....you have to know all the points at which to brake etc

Superpilot

10th May 2020, 17:28

Project Management is a good one too.

Meester proach

10th May 2020, 20:07

But all these things - are they really sitting around thinking “ damn, what my industry needs is a load of ex pilots “.

TBH, I think 90% of jobs will not achieve nearly the same pay, or excitement

Chris the Robot

11th May 2020, 10:06

Fliegenmong

A lot of what you learn at the training school covers what to do if something goes wrong, there are certain situations where you can pass a signal at danger, especially on Absolute Block signalling, and certain times when you can't. You need to be able to working arrangements which can keep the railway running when parts of the system aren't working properly and also in an outright emergency, such as a derailment or a fire in a closed environment. Then there's traction knowledge, if the train breaks down in a fairly remote area or on a very busy section of track, the driver is probably going to be the best person to try and fix it.

Then there's practical handling, you have to memorise the speeds, braking points and the which signal indications you can take in normal working and which ones you can't, in Absolute Block territory it gets a bit more complex as well. You have to be consistent, in a day you might stop at 80-90 stations, that's nearly 20,000 per year when you work out the shift patterns etc. One mistake such as stopping short and opening the doors goes on your record forever. One incident per year is considered far too high, there's many drivers who've been out 15-20 years and never had an incident. Then you throw in train dispatch responsibilities now that the government wants rid of the guards, plus situations like low-adhesion and you do have to be on your toes. It's a repetitive job but it's not necessarily easy, once you're qualified you've got no-one next to you to spot any errors you may make either.

For those who don't like any of the suggestions made so far, the maximum age for off-the-street Fleet Air Arm pilots is now 34, though I don't know if they'd want people with extensive flying habits. Then the military lifestyle and commitments would suit some but not others.

Also, I reckon that when people get a taxi, they'd probably want one with a partition, so I wouldn't be surprised if the good old Hackney Cab started to regain some of the ground it lost to the "ride-sharing" world. The Knowledge is far from easy, so I hear, but there's apparently still quite a lot of money to be had. It's probably much easier to clean the passenger compartment between trips as well, when compared to a conventional car.

NoelEvans

11th May 2020, 11:21

I suppose that a simple answer from 'the other side' could be "care to enlighten us what takes a years worth of training to press an autopilot 'on' button"??!

Meester proach

11th May 2020, 14:20

It’s called “ autopilot engage “. That’s worth six months, back to school for you ...!

bulldog89

11th May 2020, 14:34

Are you really thinking that anyone is looking forward to hire pilots with an ATPL and an online course?

You'll be competing with guys more qualified and with more experience...I can tolerate bus/train driving, but when I read "project management" and stuff like that...Jesus...do you even know what project management is? You need to know the industry, the processes and to have at least two years of EXPERIENCE in a specific field before even dreaming of being able to work in a project management team, let alone being the project manager.

Any "project management", "six sigma", "5S", "8D" can teach you the methodology, but you'll still need working experience be able to do anything remotely useful.

guy_incognito

11th May 2020, 16:35

I think unfortunately a number of pilots are deluding themselves. Your post is absolutely spot on.

Superpilot

11th May 2020, 16:48

Nope, not thinking that at all.

Maybe we have a very different understanding of what a Project Manager is or does. There are junior roles too. My angle was the IT one and after working 10 years full-time in IT and another 8 or so alongside my flying career, I've seen pretty much every role at every level. I've worked alongside former nurses, beauticians, firemen and panel beaters who were afforded their first IT opportunity at the place I met them. There's no denying that most professional vocations are difficult to enter without experience but what are you saying? that graduates don't ever get such roles? Also, not every opportunity is sourced via an open to the public application form. Hint hint.

Clearly, not everyone is going to get a job as A, B or C. My angle is simple.... Most pilots are very ambitious, great communicators, excellent networkers and quick learners. If we want to move out of aviation or even just want to diversify our skillset, we have attributes that make our success more likely than most others.

serf

11th May 2020, 18:47

Most pilots are very ambitious, great communicators, excellent networkers and quick learners. If we want to move out of aviation or even just want to diversify our skillset, we have attributes that make our success more likely than most others.

Not the attributes to have a ready made plan B though?

Lew747

11th May 2020, 20:37

Never have a Plan B as it distracts from Plan A :E

davidjohnson6

11th May 2020, 23:52

When I suggested IT, I wanted to make very clear that you are not going to get a job at Google on day 1, but you can get your foot in the door as an interim. If project management interests you, have a look at something like Prince2 and think about an initial job somewhere in Govt or a consultancy company - they tend to be much more interested in formal qualifications than having 5+ years of relevant experience.

If you're in the left seat at BA on 777s and in 6 months time are still happily in the left seat, then I really do hope you have a great time - it's clearly something you will have spent years working towards in your career. If however Covid messes up your plans...

Superpilot is right - if you don't start somewhere, you will never get anywhere.

bulldog89

12th May 2020, 01:16

Meester proach

12th May 2020, 07:17

Sadly I agree .
whilst most are busy “ chasing the dream “, there is no plan B .... just a single minded determination to make it to the flight deck because that’s all they want to be .

Most Plan Bs I’m interested in , I find I’m a little too old to apply which is disappointing and as you’ve said there are plenty of qualified applicants for the roles.

Fortuntely my level of distrust for this industry was such I’ve always spent carefully and in no way have I ever come close to spending what I used to earn

sonicbum

12th May 2020, 08:48

Both previous posts exactly sum up the current situation : millions of jobs will be lost worldwide in many different fields, obviously including aviation which will be one of the primary targets. Thinking about reinventing yourself as a business analyst with an airline pilot only background is pure science fiction.

davidjohnson6

12th May 2020, 10:45

Then go get some IT support job fixing broken PCs (yes the salary will be low but it's relatively easy to get into and better than being unemployed), make sure you are well regarded internally in the company, and then when a business analysis role comes up, move within the company. Most firms prefer to have internal career progression as it raises employee morale

bulldog89

12th May 2020, 11:38

Timeframe?

sonicbum

12th May 2020, 13:32

Next life.

Satoshi Nakamoto

26th May 2020, 21:22

Pre covid, I considered my salary to be fair compensation for the many downsides of airline flying. Given that we are all now going to have to face a haircut (and not just the lockdown variety) there must come a point when the job is just no longer worth it. I wonder if anyone else has a bottom line?

Bendig

26th May 2020, 23:36

Prior to Covid19 I was already digging my escape tunnel from aviation. I've been flying since 1995 and having hit 50 a few years ago, I started to become more aware of the very negative impact that flying was having on my health and my relationships with my family. To be the richest man in the graveyard is not one of my ambitions.

Due to Covid19 I last flew at the beginning of March and I personally haven't missed the job at all. I feel more relaxed than I've ever felt and sleep better than I've ever slept....no more am I going to bed at half seven in the evening, worrying whether or not I will hear the alarm which is due to wake me at 0300 for the early check-in. My relationships with my family and friends are better than they've ever been, life has slowed down and I'm enjoying every day. I still have no idea whether or not I will be made redundant, I will just have to swing with the punches but rest assured I am planning for the worst (best?) case scenario.

My big turning point in flying came several years ago when I did a pension review. I found out some basic information :-
What was the value my fund?
What happens to the fund if I die before my wife?
What happens to the fund when we both die?
If I go down the annuity route, what is the likely rate I would get on retirement?
How much was my 25% tax free lump sum and what could I do with it to generate an income?
What income would the remaining 75% provide?
What is the life expectancy of pilot after retirement?

I realised that even though my pension fund was quite large, I would be retiring on a very meagre income in comparison to my current Captains salary. After my Oh *uck moment and a bit of blind panic I started reading everything that I could to do with pensions. I learned that through my property business, it was possible for me to legally access the pot of money that forms my fund. I was amazed to learn that I could access it immediately (I was 50), and that through my business, I could utilise that fund to create a tax efficient income now. At the same time I could also build a trust which would be passed to my family tax free and in full should I die.
Even though I have full access to my pension fund via my business, it remains uncrystallised and I'm still free to contribute the maximum amount to it each year.

Since that 'Oh *uck' moment I've worked hard to make my plans a reality and to be quite honest Covid has cemented my decision, its given me the time to expand on my plans and to bring some of them forwards. I definitely do not want to be reliant on some greedy, bonus hungry airline CEO/COO etc to provide for my family and our lifestyle for any longer than I have to.

Vokes55

27th May 2020, 06:07

Can we assume that you'll be the first to raise your hand for voluntary redundancy then? Save the job of somebody who doesn't have a property business and a "quite large" pension fund - more likely a "quite large" training debt, student loan and, if they're lucky, a mortgage to pay.

If only every captain who spends the bulk of days complaining about the job in amongst talking about their three properties, businesses, pension funds and expensive cars would do the honourable thing and step aside, there wouldn't be a need for people to be seeking ideas on an internet forum about what to do when their career is decimated thirty years before retirement.

2 Whites 2 Reds

27th May 2020, 06:52

This!!!

Oh and don't forget the complaints about the tax bills for the pension pot being so big!

I flew with a lovely bloke a number of years ago who told me all about the house he and his sailing chum had purchased for a meagre 380k to keep their gear in. Apparently it was a must to have their sails etc so close to the boat. Not being a sailor, still loaded up with training debt and having recently struggled onto the housing ladder I politely excused myself for a few minutes for a quick Basil Fawlty style 'BASTARD!!!!' shout in the toilet.

Bendig

27th May 2020, 07:18

Why not? As long as the package offered gives enough for me to survive for the interim.

BTW, don't tar everyone with the same brush. I am not a captain that moans about the job all day, I enjoy it when I'm there but I don't miss it when I'm not. I still have a long way to go before 'retirement'. I still have debt, I still have a mortgage to pay for and I also have kids to raise. However I've chosen not to waste my money on 'designer' goods or expensive leased cars. Instead I have invested it in assets that will bring a lifelong income. I continue to invest except that since I woke up to the fact that traditional pensions are next to useless, and after I realised that I could access my pension fund at any age below age 55, I now have sufficient capital to achieve my goals in significantly less time.

macdo

27th May 2020, 07:32

The last two posts are fairly predictable in that they concentrate on what Bendig has rather than what he/she is saying. The reason people like Bendig probably won't be lining up to take redundancy is that so few of them understand their own financial position in any sort of detail. Bendig and Co. won't retire early because all of a sudden you have NO INCOME and a lot of outgoings. Unless you've spent a lot of time planning your exit, the reality of leaving the world of a regular pay cheque is plain scary.
The counter argument to the young pilot from the older is, if you lose your job you have the time to come back and make good the damage. I could lose my job and never get another in my lifetime remaining.

Satoshi Nakamoto

27th May 2020, 19:44

Meanwhile you have so called skygods bragging on Linkedin that they are willing to fly for food. I weep for my career.

Bantam42

27th May 2020, 22:02

Speaking as someone who used to be in aviation and dreamed of becoming a pilot, which never happened mainly due to money and the risk I just didn't want to take at the time. I just thought I would share something that may give you some guidance into a career in Surveying.

With everything in aviation being pretty poorly paid below ATC or at the pointy end, I left the industry entirely and became an estate agent, this gave me some experience to get into a surveying firm and qualify as an associate of RICS surveyor. Pay starts around £40k plus, but I know experienced guys that are making 6 figures.

You don't have to have experience to join a firm as you can pay around £10k to a company called SAVA to do a home based learning course, similar to Open University.

Good thing about being a surveyor is in a crap market you will get plenty of repossession work. Always based at home, can be finished by lunchtime some days and weekends off!

I appreciate that it's a difficult time for all of you and this post maybe completely irrelevant but if it's of help to anyone, I'm more than happy to answer questions.

thetimesreader84

28th May 2020, 09:27

These are all good ideas, but as macdo alludes to, they all take time. I actually looked at surveying a few years ago, as something to work towards in spare time and maybe do as well as flying. It’s a minimum 12 month course (double that if you distance learn), to get to the entry level standard (a way off £40k p.a. too). I can imagine how the conversation goes - “Hello bank manager, I’d like to take a 12 month mortgage holiday to spend 10 grand on a course that might get me a job earning half my old salary maybe.”

It’s crap. All these ideas are good for is long term planning, 2-5 years to get back to a reasonable middle class existence (and nowhere near our previous lifestyles). It’s going to be an absolute bunfight over the next 18 months just to keep the lights on.

Bantam42

28th May 2020, 15:38

Fair enough , as I say it was just an idea for anyone that might be interested. I feel for all you guys right now, there's no doubt being a pilot is one of the best jobs in the world and the thought of doing something else is not even worth thinking about. But if there is someone out there that wants a change and can take the financial gamble then there are plenty of options out there.

PilotLZ

28th May 2020, 18:34

Unless you have a previously existing and current qualification, hopefully with some relevant experience and up-to-date knowledge of the trade in concern, reinventing yourself as a reasonably-paid office worker will take about as long as the recovery of aviation, if not longer. Almost anything worthwhile in terms of income and prospects will require you to commit to it long-term rather than just use it to bridge a gap between two flying jobs. And the amount of new information you will likely have to take in will erase a good bit of your aviation knowledge unless you work hard to maintain it.

So, think twice. Do you want to abandon aviation completely and go for a clean start elsewhere or do you want just to survive financially until the market improves? If it's the latter, most jobs that will see you through might not be the nicest ones out there but they're about as much as one can achieve without switching careers once and forever. Think retail, delivery, customer support, remote recruitment etc. Those are all positions with a high turnover of personnel, so it's also unlikely that you will have to convince anyone that you will not bolt the very moment a flying job comes your way.

WhatTheDeuce

28th May 2020, 19:05

I guess it’s a question of what you think the job will look like in 20 years versus a career change.

Ive had a lot of time, much like everybody else, to consider career paths and perhaps a switch to something more stimulating could be useful and safer in the long term. Plugging backwards and forwards on the same routes probably won’t do it for me for the next 35 years.

Aviation salary versus job difficulty must be one of the best out there though!

Meester proach

29th May 2020, 21:15

So you think an office job will be more stimulating and difficult ?

must be one of those pilots who only wanted in to get an Instagram post with some stripes

WhatTheDeuce

29th May 2020, 21:20

To be honest, yes I do think that.

Never posted on instagram - I got into this industry because I enjoyed flying. It's been poisoned over the years by toxic, mediocre management.

I don't want to lose this job in my 40s and have no transferrable skills to keep the mortgage paid.

I'm truly sick of it all and if I can find a useful way out to a second career I think I'll take it.

Meester proach

30th May 2020, 08:15

Well, I’m sorry to hear that. TBH flying as a career , is probably best as a hobby ....get a high paid city job, and fly for fun at weekends. After all we can’t go fly where we want, when we want.

I think Pilots have a lot of transferable skills , the problem is those already in other jobs also have those skills but have the specific work experience thrown in .

Anything else WILL feel mundane after flying a jet worldwide , but if the glamour days are over, I’ll try not to become that old f@rt down the pub boring people with tales of flights.

What I really miss, only two months into this grounding, is the actual routine. Starting out at set times, knowing the procedures, the hotels, buying my shopping etc.....I miss the cheap stuff I used to buy abroad....etc

thetimesreader84

30th May 2020, 08:26

No, they are good ideas, if you are planning a move out of aviation. The problem is, we’re having this situation thrust upon us. It’s the situation that’s crap. Maybe I should have articulated it better.

PilotLZ

30th May 2020, 09:27

On the subject of office roles being stimulating (or not) - unless you work in a couple of very limited fields which actually create new things, pretty much every job becomes routine and mundane quite quickly. Just as flying an aircraft involves SOP, facilitating most processes in the majority of businesses relies heavily upon set procedures and protocols. So, whatever you end up doing in that office - chances are that you won't reinvent the hot water, just as you won't by flying commercially. Therefore, any long-term choice boils down to desired lifestyle, income and prospects.

ADFUS

30th May 2020, 10:01

Well, I’m sorry to hear that. TBH flying as a career , is probably best as a hobby ....get a high paid city job, and fly for fun at weekends. After all we can’t go fly where we want, when we want.

God I love seeing absolutely DELUDED pilots saying stuff like that. Tell me what other career has you getting paid that much and working 3-4 days a week.

Contact Approach

30th May 2020, 11:08

PilotLZ

30th May 2020, 13:48

Did we leave out the catch that "company phone included" will likely mean "you'd better be available 24/7/365, be it during your commute, at 9 PM after a working day or on the weekend"? Did we mention that you'll see loads of people who spend most of their working day on Facebook while someone else, who might as well be you, gets one task after another thrown at them just because you appear to be taking things a bit more seriously than the average Joe on the adjacent desk? Did we also comment on the lovely attitude of "there's no going home until the project is finished, even if that means staying until 10:30 PM for little to no overtime payment"? And the time which will be simply wasted for nothing in return in traffic jams and supermarket queues because you're always travelling to and from work just when everyone else is and you are shopping for groceries just when everyone else is?

If you think that this is better than the average flight ops department - well, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Both can be great places to work at, but both can also be a mess. Neither flying, nor office work are inherently good or inherently bad in terms of how you will be treated. There are toxic companies with a terrible working environment and non-existent work ethics in every branch you can think of. So, if you turn your back to the "horrible and inhumane airlines" in hopes for getting better treatment elsewhere, you might be in for a nasty surprise.

Meester proach

30th May 2020, 16:21

God I love seeing absolutely DELUDED pilots saying stuff like that. Tell me what other career has you getting paid that much and working 3-4 days a week.

I didn’t say it would be easy did I ? Why so bitter ? Another wannabe ?

sonicbum

30th May 2020, 20:30

God I love seeing absolutely DELUDED pilots saying stuff like that. Tell me what other career has you getting paid that much and working 3-4 days a week.

Any career where you are the one accountable (i.e. going to jail) for the lives of your pax, the stuff you carry on board and 100+ millions euros equipment.

Banana Joe

30th May 2020, 20:50

As far as I know, train drivers in Italy work 6 days a week, and it's mostly by sole operator nowadays. Just saying it since many mentioned driving trains.

ADFUS

31st May 2020, 04:24

I didn’t say it would be easy did I ? Why so bitter ? Another wannabe ?

You didn't say it but you sure implied it. "Get a high paying city job they said".
I'm only bitter because I just got made redundant down under (got my 3 month notice) and prior to that flew with plenty of Captains who were fed up with flying and thought they could just waltz off and make 200k NZD+ just like that, while working 3-4 days a week, 6 weeks annual leave +++. Guess what pumpkin, ya can't.

Anyway I'm off to brush up on my Python and JS which I haven't touched in a production environment for over 8 years. Also be weary of IT professionals who claim that they "CAN" make more money than flying but only working 2 days a week, on a professional pilot forum of all places. Okay mate sure ya can :D

Meester proach

31st May 2020, 12:38

Best of luck ,
By high paid city job - I meant you’d have had to start out there, not career swap.

nothing in life worth having is easy !

portsharbourflyer

31st May 2020, 16:27

"Also be weary of IT professionals who claim that they "CAN" make more money than flying but only working 2 days a week, on a professional pilot forum of all places. Okay mate sure ya can"

Depends what you compare it with. If you are flying a turboprop or a light jet even as a Captain you are unlikely to be earning much above 50k a year. So yes it is quite feasible that certain IT consultants could earn as much in 2 days.

Meester proach

31st May 2020, 18:43

Whilst I’m grateful for any ideas , I hate to say it, but flying isn’t all about money .

You have to earn enough but, the excitement level of taking off in a large jet is still there and sure as hell beats the excitement of “ who borrowed my stapler and didn’t return it “, that’s partially why the readjustment would be so great. It’s still a coveted and unusual job and not only that , the routine and lifestyle is very different to a 9-5 existence

ACP

1st Jun 2020, 02:56

I can get paid more working 2 days a week in IT consultancy... :)

My wife is director of recruitment in a large famous IT firm and I have first hand info about the salaries in consultancy. Some are pretty descent I admit but way below mine and many of my colleagues in terms of hourly rate (A330 Captain/+300k per year working 8 days per month). I will never trade my job for an IT job...

macdo

1st Jun 2020, 06:52

The trouble is that your extraordinary pay is already an outlier statistically in the aviation world where a 330 skipper would command less than half the money and be quite grateful to have it. You must surely wonder how 300k for 8 days work a month is sustainable? If I had to bet on the sustainability of a career over the next 40 years, IT would seem a better bet than aviation.

2 Whites 2 Reds

1st Jun 2020, 06:55

God I love seeing absolutely DELUDED pilots saying stuff like that. Tell me what other career has you getting paid that much and working 3-4 days a week.

Oh dear. I think someone REALLY needs to do their research.

ADFUS

1st Jun 2020, 07:18

Ok, go on. I'm all ears.

Meester proach

1st Jun 2020, 08:00

Well for starters, don’t the low costs do 5/2, 5/3 ?

wheres this 3/4 days a week BS come from ?

2 Whites 2 Reds

1st Jun 2020, 08:18

When I said do your research I didn't mean me or others spoon feed you info. :rolleyes:

But anyway, as you're all ears .....if you seriously think we're all swanning around doing 3-4 days a week on "that much money" (in your words) I think it's you that "DELUDED".

Not sure what T's and C's are like where you are but over here in Blighty they're nothing like that. Unfortunately!

beachbumflyer

1st Jun 2020, 22:09

My wife is director of recruitment in a large famous IT firm and I have first hand info about the salaries in consultancy. Some are pretty descent I admit but way below mine and many of my colleagues in terms of hourly rate (A330 Captain/+300k per year working 8 days per month). I will never trade my job for an IT job...
Not in Europe, I reckon

hunterboy

2nd Jun 2020, 10:20

8 days a month for 300K/? Who/where on Earth is that?

flyer4life

2nd Jun 2020, 15:56

That money and easy roster would be fairly typical at a US major airline. Work a bit harder and earn even more.

European pay is way behind unfortunately.

macdo

2nd Jun 2020, 22:00

Good post Flylaw and I agree with most of it, except the bit about going into business, by which I include any type of self employment. Sure, you're pretty unlikely to end up as a multi millionaire, but I know plenty of folk who earn a very decent living answering to no-one except themselves, paying little tax and mainly having their weekends off. It's not for everyone, but then neither is aviation, but I certainly put it out there to be considered.

Satoshi Nakamoto

2nd Jun 2020, 22:10

The return key is your friend.

giggitygiggity

3rd Jun 2020, 04:20

I'll give you that. I literally can't be arsed to even start to read that 10,000 chars of TEXT.

Although I will nominate this for the soon to be annual 'Worlds Longest Paragraph Awards 2020' (to be held digitally).

Sam Ting Wong

3rd Jun 2020, 04:25

Great post, Flylaw.

I wonder if you sometimes miss the intellectual challenge?

After all, this job is 99% routine, and with a few years of experience even the 1% become a rather modest excitement...

And what do you talk about in cruise? Yes, colleagues in aviation don't steal your job, but don't you find this all a bit boring compared to your previous life?

Serious question.

Capt Scribble

3rd Jun 2020, 09:49

Good post flylaw. Sorry that some are so rude about a subject that is of relevance to many at the moment. The first sentence summarises the post nicely and those who are disinterested can move on.

PilotLZ

3rd Jun 2020, 11:19

Finally having worked as a litigation lawyer and seeing how people and businesses react to money, maybe I am cynical but expecting a Pilot a few years from retirement to give up several years of income to the detriment of his family’s financial future to voluntarily retire and let some unknown younger Pilot keep a job is not likely to happen. When it comes to money it’s the law of the jungle.
Absolutely true. Someone just needed to put it in plain text. It's downright delusional to think that anyone taking an early retirement does so for the sake of some random youngster keeping their job. Most of the time, those pulling out before they get on the wrong side of 65 have some substantial personal reasons to do so. Deteriorating health is often one of them, followed by family circumstances and overall tiredness. Even under today's circumstances, for most who take any VR deal that's a decision which has been almost made during the better days and COVID-19 was that last straw which broke the camel's back. Of course, a good severance package can further stimulate such a decision, but, overall, don't expect anyone to set themselves on fire to keep you warm. Not blaming anyone for it, that's just how life works. Survival of the fittest also has its place outside biology.

As for some of the previous comments, implying that pilots are a simplistic and boring lot to spend time with, they just beg the question why those who consider themselves more intelligent and interesting to talk to than the average pilot still spend their downtime on pilot forums.

Meester proach

3rd Jun 2020, 11:58

Very interesting words, flylaw, thanks

MaverickPrime

3rd Jun 2020, 14:10

That money and easy roster would be fairly typical at a US major airline.

It will be the exception from now on. It’s famine or feast in the US.

I’d imagine Ts & Cs will suffer worse than in the EU until the good times return. Post 9/11 - widebody skippers in the US on c.$120k and I remember exchange rates of $2 to the £1..... it all averages out over the course of a 30 year career.

beachbumflyer

3rd Jun 2020, 17:50

"Yes, colleagues in aviation don't steal your job".
Are you sure about that?

flite idol

8th Jun 2020, 14:09

I was accepted on to a new pay to fly MPL program

Your honor my client would like to strike that from the record.

On a serious note when hiring resumes or airlines start to recall pilots, many will find that the terms and conditions will be greatly reduced and those willing and in a position to fly for next to nothing or indeed willing to pay to fly will have cockpits to go to.

beachbumflyer

8th Jun 2020, 17:54

Sadly, but you're right. Shame on those pilots willing to pay to fly, or accept greatly reduced conditions. When will they learn?
Pilots are their own worst enemies

PilotLZ

8th Jun 2020, 18:41

It might be my own wishful thinking, but wouldn't now be a good opportunity to campaign against P2F, using the number of unemployed pilots as an argument for the law makers? Actually, P2F is no good for the already strained state budgets. Instead of having employed professionals earning a salary, paying taxes and spending on goods and services, P2F effectively leads to those doing it having no income, just like those who are unemployed.

flite idol

8th Jun 2020, 19:28

How about we campaign for reciprocity. I would like to get a fast track legal qualification, skip all that junior experience building nonsense and buy myself a set of silks and a silly wig, pay for a seat in chambers and a QC title. All the other QC's can just show me what to do until I get the hang of it. Obviously I'm just being silly here and I know P2F has been flogged to death. We will however be facing experienced pilots being expected to essentially pay to get their jobs back soon. Oh well, at least I saw a few good years. Good luck to all.... We are going to need it.

excrab

9th Jun 2020, 09:17

Sadly, but you're right. Shame on those pilots willing to pay to fly, or accept greatly reduced conditions. When will they learn?
Pilots are their own worst enemies

Agree with the P2F thing. But if in a few months time my current employer was to say that to keep my job in the left seat of an airliner I would have to accept a £60k salary I would almost certainly say yes, and if I didn’t plenty of people would. At the moment the alternative is to earn £10 per hour delivering parcels, and I know which option would pay the mortgage. The time to try to improve terms and conditions is when you have a position to bargain from.

NoelEvans

9th Jun 2020, 15:22

... The time to try to improve terms and conditions is when you have a position to bargain from.
Probably one of the most sensible comments on PPRuNe for a while...

Staying in work right now is more important than anything else. And keeping as many pilots also in work goes along with that. Then there should be no need for "Working Life After Flying".

However, for those who do need to think about that, do not 'aim too high' to start with, get something and build from there. Work of some sort on you C.V. looks a lot more impressive than "time spent at home thinking about something".

calypso

9th Jun 2020, 19:49

Utter tosh. If we all accept a 50% pay cut all we will achieve is destroying this profession. I for one much rather stay at home for two years if required and return to a fair paying job than to keep my job but work for half the pay the rest of my career. Is simple maths if you look a career earnings. How many pilots are employed is determined by how any aircraft airlines want to operate NOT by how much we are willing to cut our pay. Even if you accept 60K MOL will want 30K. If you accept 30 K he will be after 15 and so on. Willie Walsh, Alex Cruz, MOL and the rest are after the absolute minimum they can get away with. If they can get you to pay to work even better. Don't fall into the trap.

I have done pilot selection in the past. I judged candidates on their technical knowledge, their performance in the sim, the psychometric testing, their hours on type and on seat and on wether I could sit next to them for a 12 hour stint without going mad. I did not care wether they did a paper round when they where 16 or wether they took a career break at 40. I specially did not care if they agreed to take a 50% pay cut to stay in their job.

beachbumflyer

9th Jun 2020, 22:12

I completely agree with you. I would suggest those pilots willing to work for a lot less pay to take a look at Continental Airlines in the early 1980's when ALPA lost a strike
because some of their pilots accepted a sharp reduction in pay and crossed the picket line along with new hires. At the end who suffer are the pilots and the profession.

excrab

10th Jun 2020, 06:14

I’m pleased to see your experience in airline recruitment Calypso, that’s an experience I don’t have.

However, what I do have is a 36 year career in aviation during which time I have worked for eight airlines and undertaken six type ratings. I’ve never put any money up front into any sort of “cadetship”, I’ve never worked just for flight pay in order to get a type rating, but it did take ten years of hard aviation graft and 5000 hours in GA before I got a job in an airline. To my mind it’s not people who might be prepared to take a pay cut to keep their jobs in the face of an unprecedented global pandemic who are destroying this profession. It was destroyed when companies like Astreus, Ryanair, EasyJet and all the others started to schemes where holders of fATPLs could get a type rating and then fly for 500 hours effectively for free in the hope of getting a permanent job. But even then those schemes wouldn’t have destroyed the profession and started a race to the bottom unless those fATPL holders hadn’t jumped on the band wagon to avoid working their way up through instructing, single crew air taxi, regional turboprops etc on the way to a shiny jet.

And you’re right, the maths about career earnings is simple. Having had to survive for some of those years on savings due to airline failures I, unlike you, couldn’t afford to sit at home waiting for the good times to come back. And if I did in two years time I would be looking for a job having no current type rating, not having flown for two years, having only three years to retirement and competing with thousands of out of work pilots from BA, Virgin, Norwegian, Thomas Cook, Flybe, Emirates and possibly every other airline on the planet.

So however much you want to pontificate I will do what I need to do to keep a job and put the money in the bank that my family needs, and I’m sure I won’t be alone in that. And if that means accepting a pay cut for a while then I’ll do it. And if that means that someone with ten or twenty or thirty years of earning potential ahead of them are upset then so be it, why should I sacrifice what is left of my career to help you with yours.

Theholdingpoint

10th Jun 2020, 07:54

It was destroyed when companies like Astreus, Ryanair, EasyJet and all the others started to schemes where holders of fATPLs could get a type rating and then fly for 500 hours effectively for free in the hope of getting a permanent job. But even then those schemes wouldn’t have destroyed the profession and started a race to the bottom unless those fATPL holders hadn’t jumped on the band wagon to avoid working their way up through instructing, single crew air taxi, regional turboprops etc on the way to a shiny jet.

Did you and pilots with your level of experience do anything to stop such schemes when they started popping up?
Who was seating in the LH seat of a Ryanair flight 15 year ago, a 200h fATPL pilot or an experienced one?

why should I sacrifice what is left of my career to help you with yours

Nothing new here.

FlyingStone

10th Jun 2020, 08:41

I for one much rather stay at home for two years if required and return to a fair paying job than to keep my job but work for half the pay the rest of my career. Is simple maths if you look a career earnings.

Most people won't have a home, if they don't work for 2 years.

PilotLZ

10th Jun 2020, 09:22

So however much you want to pontificate I will do what I need to do to keep a job and put the money in the bank that my family needs, and I’m sure I won’t be alone in that. And if that means accepting a pay cut for a while then I’ll do it. And if that means that someone with ten or twenty or thirty years of earning potential ahead of them are upset then so be it, why should I sacrifice what is left of my career to help you with yours.
That's the entire T&Cs debate in a nutshell. Everyone will do what they find to be in their best interest and not what some fellow on pprune suggests as "the best way forward for the next 10-20-30 years to come". For some, it might be staying away from aviation for a year or two. For others, it might be a complete career change. Some will agree to a basic pay cut, others will be more than happy to go part-time with work and pay reduced pro rata. Nobody can tell you what to do in this situation, at least for as long as they are not contributing towards your mortgage, not putting any food in your fridge and not sharing your bills.

Trossie

10th Jun 2020, 11:38

excrab, FlyingStone and PilotLZ are living in the real world.

guy_incognito

10th Jun 2020, 17:12

Meester proach

10th Jun 2020, 20:08

There’s never been an unity in this game - if you get moral scruples and sit at home, thousands will queue up for your place. Even at half pay it’s better than working outside the flightdeck

beachbumflyer

10th Jun 2020, 21:24

Did you and pilots with your level of experience do anything to stop such schemes when they started popping up?
Who was seating in the LH seat of a Ryanair flight 15 year ago, a 200h fATPL pilot or an experienced one?

Nothing new here.
Nobody did a thing. That's the root of the problem.

PilotLZ

10th Jun 2020, 21:56

If we assume the wildly pessimistic scenario of pilots starting to get paid as much as cashiers in McDonald's, we'll get where the USA used to be not too long ago. A bona fide shortage of pilots for any but the top-notch carriers. In conjunction with the artificial shortage created by the 1500-hour rule, it genuinely grounded some regionals for lack of crews. Hence, good packages started being offered, far superior to those in Europe.

You can't be doing P2F from line training till command upgrade. Neither can you survive for years on 18K, however strong your passion is. A job is a job, you count on it to make a living. Anyone in their right mind can only survive for that long sleeping in the car and eating canned beans three times a day. This, if it happens, will lead to flying becoming far less attractive and far less likely to be a lifelong career of choice rather than a few-year "I-tried-flying-a-jet-for-real" affair. And things will self-adjust.

Although I'm in the moderately optimistic lot foreseeing a reasonably good future for the profession, I cannot deny that things will get ugly for anywhere between 1 and 3 years from now. But afterwards, demand will be back and higher than in 2019 and many existing crews will have retired. So, who will be needed to get those planes flying? Hint: not only the 200-hour guys, you can't run any airline on cadets only.

ReallyAnnoyed

10th Jun 2020, 23:09

I will advise against listening to any of the obvious management trolls who fester on this thread. It is in their interest to paint a picture of the sky falling,so that it will be easier to lower terms and conditions. It is the classic “never let a good crisis go to waste “ ploy.

excrab

11th Jun 2020, 11:28

I really don’t think you need to be a “management troll” to predict that the results of this pandemic will have a devastating effect on the industry. Just read the papers or watch the news, apart from the “our plan is working” UK government daily briefing. For the UK alone there are predictions of the UK economy suffering it’s worst recession in peace time, housing market crashing and 3.5 million people unemployed who won’t be spending money on going on holiday. Let’s say though that it’s not that bad, and is only as bad as the mini recession of the early 1990s. That lasted for four years, and I remember ex airline pilots with 10,000 hours sitting in the right seat of Navajos for no pay, just to get a bit of flying on empty sectors, and people coming out of Oxford in 1991 and taking six years to find a job. Add to that the unemployed pilots from Airlines around the UK and expats coming back from all over the world and sadly I can’t really share the optimism. Let’s just hope I’m wrong.

NoelEvans

11th Jun 2020, 15:26

I think that a big problem is that the likes of ReallyAnnoyed have been stuck at home too long without seeing the real world out there. Not at all their fault, but it does limit their viewpoint.

To see airport after airport after airport full of parked up and sealed aeroplanes (I'm not talking about remote 'storage' airports, I'm talking about normal 'every day' airports), to see totally deserted airport terminals and to see the Departure Board in the terminal of one of the world's major international airports on what should be a hectic bank holiday with only five flights on it -- things are bad. Trying to bang on about maintaining Ts&Cs just does not fit into that real world out there. Taking whatever is needed to keep as many pilots in employment and avoid them having to worry about "Working Life After Flying" is most important right now.

Please do NOT try to confuse this situation with any other. It is totally unlike any other. I will repeat the graph from 'Flight' that I posted some time back:

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/971x523/mainline_jetfleet_evolution_1ca8f9165bb77adcfbd4e30c02e6ed69 c2b65d0a.jpg
Not a single situation that anyone has tried to compare with in the past comes anywhere near this.

excrab has it perfectly correct:
The time to try to improve terms and conditions is when you have a position to bargain from.

Best right now is to try to look after each other and ensure that as many pilots stay in work for as long as possible...

macdo

11th Jun 2020, 16:38

Not a single situation that anyone has tried to compare with in the past comes anywhere near this.

excrab has it perfectly correct:

Best right now is to try to look after each other and ensure that as many pilots stay in work for as long as possible...

All three lines above are correct, but, the current dire situation plus excrabs attitude (which is commonly shared by pilots) means that the third statement is paid lip service to only. Talk is cheap, decent Union representation is scarce and the next gen of pilots will be having the same conversations when the next big event occurs. Pilots have allowed themselves to become a cheap commodity and the only trajectory is down.

PilotLZ

11th Jun 2020, 17:29

Did the generation that tends to moan about the downward curve the most do anything when self-funded type ratings became a big thing? Nothing. Did they do much to stop P2F? Not really. Bogus self-employment contracts for the new entrants? Let them be! Because why bother when it's only a concern to the youngsters? And that was the case right until it crept upon everyone, young and old.

Nobody other than you can (or will) defend your own interests. Forget about anyone campaigning to make your life any better, nobody will bother and nobody will take the associated risks. Even in the best of times, everyone's priority is their own welfare. Also, nobody other than you can judge what's in your best interests right now. For someone, not working for 2 years in hopes of returning to the same package as in January afterwards might be the way to go. For many, it's not. Those many simply can't survive those 2 years without work - and their alternatives on the ground will not bring them any sizable fraction of the reduced package.

Some might call it trolling or whatever. I really, really wish it was... As much as we try to deny it, that's the reality of life.

PilotLZ

25th Jun 2020, 06:40

Nothing wrong with that - and it's absolutely understandable in the light of how many carriers treated their personnel in the past months. As long as you are happy with your choice, it's all well and good. And you certainly won't be alone as in the past weeks many colleagues have made a similar choice simply because of being totally demoralised by the obnoxious treatment they received.

Best of luck in your new career!

vlieger

25th Jun 2020, 07:03

I'm reaching similar conclusions. Doing this fulltime in a low cost company now at reduced salary, what's the point? I'm just hoping they won't be able to max us out for a few years because of this virus.
It's an utter absurdity how on the one hand you'll have thousands of unemployed pilots doing nothing and on the other hand a layer of us "lucky ones" who can be exploited even more, on random rosters doing close to 900 hours a year.

MonarchOrBust

25th Jun 2020, 07:28

Indeed.

Most airlines would obviously rather not hire two people on part time due to training overheads but those of us who genuinely benefit from such arrangements, and I know this will be controversial, would gladly cover those costs. I know many will wheep at hearing this and it is a slippery road (possibly, unless enshrined in union agreement) but for me at least, it's more important I'm regularly practicing my other trade than it is to lose a couple of grand on training expenses.

Incoming! :\

Meester proach

25th Jun 2020, 07:48

TBH,
the chances of doing this again , full time, part time or at all are fairly slim.

The competition for any posts worldwide will be enormous , and not only that, so will competition for jobs across all other sectors including McJobs.

I awake everyday to a desolate wasteland !

vlieger

25th Jun 2020, 08:49

The race to the bottom is reaching a point where safety will become compromised. Aviation remains very safe statistically but the bean counters are playing with fire and morale is at rock-bottom.

The technology and infrastructure are simply not there to easily replace us. So you may end up with a situation in the next few decades where aviation becomes less safe, with button pushers on low wages with no actual airmanship or exposure to "real flying", and you can only rely on technology for so much.

PilotLZ

25th Jun 2020, 09:02

That's the thing, there's a day after today and a day after tomorrow. Right now, there's a shortage of ANY good jobs in ANY industry. Even IT guys who were first thought to be recession-proof are being made redundant en masse.

But what do we do when things pick up? Skilled personnel will be needed again. And in large numbers. In the context of aviation, even if we assume that recovery to 2019 levels and further growth will not happen until 2024, there will still be a lot of retirements in that period, hence a need for someone to replace those people. Not to mention that some pilots who are still far from retirement age are walking away voluntarily - and someone will have to replace them as well. There might be loads of wannabes out there, but you can't run an airline on 200-hour cadets only.

C195

25th Jun 2020, 20:00

I do know some pilots who have decided to leave the industry now... early retirement and hopefully some other part time work... they have simply had enough and would like to return to a more normal life with their friends and families. For those of us who do stick around, I suspect that the job market will start to pick up again next year. One interesting point to consider is the long term impact of less people starting their training in 2020 and possibly even in 2021. The state of the industry will put many off from starting their training and others may be forced to delay for financial reasons.

nickler

27th Jun 2020, 10:02

Do we have a rough estimate to date of the number of pilots looking for work divided by fleet ?
Just to have an idea on how complex it will be to land a job somewhere in the next couple of years and if it's worth looking for other kind of businesses.

PilotLZ

27th Jun 2020, 11:44

I don't think that there's such a list. And the situation certainly varies by region, aircraft type and, last but not least, by whether the individual is keen to go for a job just about anywhere in the world instead of waiting for a local opportunity. Some places will pick up quicker than others. Some type ratings will be in greater demand than others. Some people will be willing to relocate pretty much anywhere in the world - unlike others. And then, there's the big unknown of how the situation with the virus will evolve both regionally and globally.

Madder

12th Jul 2020, 20:38

Honestly, this industry won't be viable or any fun for far the majority - my guess is 5+ years from now. At least. T&C's will hit rock bottom along with employment, and it takes time to improve those to a decent level - many companies won't improve.

Back in 2014 i took the decision to leave and study, as opposed to doing a TR in hope of a full-time job. Best decision ever. Today I work in a really exciting job - and fly as an instructor - for fun. Best part is, I'm actually having fun while I fly now. I didn't back then.

Don't hold back if you have the slightest chance for and desire to try another career. I was 34 when I did. Never too late and all that.

Lew747

12th Jul 2020, 23:15

Madder what career did you venture into if you don’t mind me asking?

Madder

13th Jul 2020, 13:41

Law practice. Contruction law to be more precise.

Private jet

1st Aug 2020, 13:39

The traditional advice was always to "Get a trade".
I know a chap that left school with about 1.5 GCSE's. He had no idea what he wanted to do with his life, (tbh I was a bit like that 33 years ago, and in some ways I still am...) but in order to "do something" he went to the local college to study plumbing and central heating, which is a market that will never dry up. He got the qualifications and safety certifications (he reckoned it was "difficult" but compared to an ATPL maybe not so much) , His Mum and Dad set him up with tools and a van (much cheaper than an ATPL) and he's never looked back. Now, 15 years later he has a thriving small business, revenue for his work I'd reckon £1600 a week on average with 85% of that profit. He chooses the hours that he works, and is motivated by the fact that the more he works the more money he makes (unlike a salary where people are squeezed for every drop of juice with nothing extra in return). His phone is always ringing with fresh work, to the point where his poor old Mum is now his "booking agent"! Roofers do even better apparently and can pretty much pick their jobs and name their price because so few want to do it. The traditional benefits of being an employee, i.e a known regular income, has evaporated in recent years, even before COVID, due to zero hours contracts and the end of occupational pensions.
Of course a lot of people won't want to do this kind of thing because it involves physical graft, and it's not sitting on their backside in a flightdeck looking at the clouds below (I wouldn't want to do it either, I eschew all physical exercise beyond walking, swimming and sex!) it's certainly as far from glamourous as can be and the upper middle class customers often treat you like sh!t apparently. But society will always NEED tradespeople, society doesn't "need" air travel, especially with the easy free global communications we have now. It is and in many ways always has been a discretionary purchase.
My advise these days is to provide a product or a service that people will always need and want, whatever the signs of the times, and do it for yourself, not for the enrichment of your employer. At least have it as a fallback even if you do something else too.

Thegreenmachine

2nd Aug 2020, 12:40

I always enjoy reading posts like his. I was that guy who got a trade and then went into flying later and it does make me chuckle reading just how easy I had it before. To correct a few points and add some more perspective.

-Expect a minimum of 3 years study, during which you will need to find someone to take you on for 4 days a week (1 day at college) , expect £50 a day. Don’t bother with these fast track 12 week courses for £10,000 unless you are some serious gambler or have an immediate job offer or company willing to nurse you through your first few years.
-After your minimum 3 years, expect to shell out several thousand pounds on tools, van, insurance and maintenance of your qualifications, per year, every year.
-£1600 a week self employed? Certainly achieveable, more during good times. Remember though holiday pay is £0, sick pay is £0, pension is £0
-85% profit, well even the most lenient taxation system might frown upon that.
-Do not underestimate the physical strain you will be putting your body under fixing sinks, plumbing in toilets, shower basins, squeezing into peoples lofts and under their floors. I can’t name a tradesperson I know of over 50 without some work related back/knee/shoulder serious long term impairment.

My advice is this. If you are serious about a career change getting a trade it can be a good trade off between quality of life/money/independence. If you are able to absorb a minimum of 2-3yrs with very little income with a view to the longer term then go ahead. Don’t expect the lifestyle or money that MAY come with a flying job. But do expect more time at home with the family and the occasional golf day. Don’t expect people to pay on time, or sometimes even at all. Do expect tools to be stolen, regular awkward customers, play of dirt and a dusting of asbestos.

I could go on but you get the idea. I may have to dust off the spanners if I get let go next week so best wishes to all.

macdo

2nd Aug 2020, 12:57

He's quite right. There's a reason why the smart tradesmen are contractors by the time they are 45!
Shortage of people who can do quality lead work at the moment.

Sam Ting Wong

2nd Aug 2020, 20:43

3 years of training to fix toilets. Sounds too good to be true, where can I sign up please?

PilotLZ

2nd Aug 2020, 22:25

Depending on the sort of flying you do, trades can also be useful second lines of work. Sure, if you work for a 900-hour-per-year LCC, you will be lucky if you have enough free time to sleep and see your family and friends. Corporate doesn't involve much flying per se, but requires a lot of standby time and availability on a short notice, making side jobs hard to schedule. But, if you work in the leisure and charter sector, for a good half of the year you will be doing hardly any flying. Between November and April, 5 flights in a month is considered an awful lot in many airlines of that kind. And the basic salary without flying is often not too impressive. So, if this is where you are likely to end up, you'd better build some strategy how to spend your winters wisely. Being an on-call home improvement professional can be a good option, especially once you have done it for a while and have a "database" of happy clients who will call you when needed and possibly refer you to their friends. The trouble is, you can't pick up the necessary skills too quickly and you also need experience in order to be trusted with working on people's homes. So, this is ideally worth thinking about BEFORE you start flying.

...and here goes a piece of advice which will never go out of style - get your second qualification before you commit yourself to flying.

nickler

3rd Aug 2020, 08:11

Can't wait to hear people with something like "hey if You need a good plumber then You should call that guy ; he was the captain of the flight that took us on our last trip to Ibiza on an A320 worth 60 millions euros with 180 pax on board - really cool guy".

I also can't wait to hear "hey if you need that toilet fixed then call my lawyer - very reasonable prices and very smart guy : we won a court case worth 100'000 euros last year. Smart dude."

For some reasons I am under the impression I won't hear that second line. Go figure.

NoelEvans

3rd Aug 2020, 10:15

As so often, PilotLZ comes up with very sensible comments and yet again as so often, some tries to 'rubbish' them.

Refusing to consider all possible Alternates is not a good approach in this job.

I have done what many would look down on as a 'menial' job when between job, and thoroughly enjoyed it. I also met several others from quite high up positions, also between jobs and enjoying it.

But it all goes to show that there are those for who the glass is half empty and those for who the glass is half full.

However, please consider your Alternates and do consider additional information from others. If you don't, I would be wary about flying with you...

nickler

3rd Aug 2020, 11:54

Refusing to understand that being an airline pilot possibly with many years of experience has nothing in common with the path of becoming a tradesman is not a good approach to our declining T&Cs either.

Yes I do look down o a "menial" job because I have spent my life working my @rse off to make it up being a captain examiner in one of the most important airlines in the world and yes I do consider myself at a higher social level.

I do consider my alternates when flying because I am trained to do it and I have been assessed by my employers as being able to do it and also teach it... go figure... so don't bring in these stupid parallelisms between flying and life's plan B, C and so on.

By the way, You don't have to fly with me ; You can go and ask Your plumber or electrician to fly You somewhere. They might work as airline pilots as a part time hobby.

guy_incognito

3rd Aug 2020, 14:11

You sound like a self important idiot quite frankly. I'm not sure why you'd consider yourself on a "higher social level", whatever that means, to a tradesman. Serious (i.e. broadsheet) media in the UK considers airline flying to be a trade and not a profession by the way.

nickler

3rd Aug 2020, 14:50

Lovely.

Point 1 - You start your reply by insulting me. A clear sign that You have no arguments at all and/or you are simply a troll. The latter I believe. Maybe You were hanging out with NoelEvans earlier on ? Remember to keep social distancing in case.

Point 2 - guy_incognito states that UK media considers an airline pilot to have the same level of qualifications of a plumber ; Oh no... :-(

PilotLZ

3rd Aug 2020, 17:26

No need to insult one another, gentlemen. At the end of the day, everyone will be doing whatever they see fit for themselves. You're good at fixing pipework and want to make some extra money out of it in your downtime? Great. You feel that doing this sort of work is inappropriate for a pilot and sends the wrong message to the public? That's totally fine as well. It's your life, your free time, your income. You be the master of it. Nobody should be telling you what you should and shouldn't do unless they will be sharing your bills at the end of the month.

macdo

3rd Aug 2020, 22:45

Wow, and they wonder why people think airline pilots are a bit full of themselves, now I know. Since many of the UAE crews have been given their marching orders, one wonders what they are going to do to pay the bills after they land back in their home countries. Because there sure isn't much work for airline pilots, even highly qualified trainers, right now.
Recent genuine comment on a rejection letter to an experienced TRE from Air Uganda. " We had many other more suitably qualified candidates for the role"

nickler

4th Aug 2020, 06:54

Thanks pilotLZ

I believe it is very true that pilots are their own worst enemies.

Pilot's are constantly bitchin' about their terms and conditions because we want to be paid more and have a higher degree of respect in the decision making process of our contracts within the company we do work for but in the end we compare ourselves to tradesmen...

Well I guess O'Leary was right when, a few years back, he told in an interview that pilots were glorified taxi drivers.

Anyway I do appreciate Your very sensible comment. Thanks again.

nickler

4th Aug 2020, 06:58

macdo

You should just be ashamed of Your comment.

"Since many of the UAE crews have been given their marching orders" - just sign in with Your real name and surname and go tell that to the several hundreds of people that have lost their jobs in the past few weeks. Grow a pair big boy.

Atlantic Explorer

4th Aug 2020, 07:27

Im genuinely curious, which airline do you work for?

macdo

4th Aug 2020, 08:13

LoL, I think you must have been hitting the homebrew too hard. You just repeated my comment using different words! Sadly I know several of the people let go personally, there is no shame or secret to the plight they find themselves in now they are back home. Coincidentally, one of them is seriously considering retraining in a building trade to tide him over.
I won't bother growing a pair thanks, you clearly have enough testosterone for both of us.

SOPS

4th Aug 2020, 10:45

As I've previously suggested, pilot salaries were ripe for a "refresh" and this situation has provided airline management with the ideal excuse to take the axe to Ts&Cs. From an accountant's point of view, it is easy to see why £100k+ salaries are unjustifiable for a role which has an extremely low (academic) bar to entry, has massive oversupply and is highly aspirational. The "new normal" will be captains on train driver salaries (without any of the associated benefits) and first officers either paying to be there or on minimum wage, zero hours contracts. It's no good stomping our feet and pretending that it isn't the case. The salaries we enjoyed three months ago will be comfortably the highest the vast majority of us will ever earn in our careers.

Can I say.. after I got out of flying ( after 36 years and 22000 hours).. I am now a train driver. I love the conditions ( that include 9 weeks annual leave).. sure the money is not the same as I earned as a 777 Captain.. but I am so much happier. No jet lag.. lovely place to work, home at night. Wish I had done it 10 years ago.

NoelEvans

4th Aug 2020, 11:24

There is no such thing as a 'menial job' to the person who needs that job and is prepared to roll up his/her sleeves to get on and do it. If anyone does 'decry' a tradesman's job, I just hope that they think very carefully about that when they need that tradesman to do some important work for them.

If O'Leary did say that airline pilots are "glorified taxi drivers", he was wrong. bizjet pilots are more like "glorified taxi drivers"; airline pilots are more like "glorified bus/train drivers". (My daughter calls me a "glorified postie", which I find amusing, not 'degrading'!)

An interesting comparison: I know someone who was an accountant and is now an electrician and is doing very well out of it. Quite some time ago he moved countries and to 'convert' qualifications from his old trade of electrician or later profession of accountant would have been months compared with years. Being an electrician was his first choice and that is where he is. (Would that be the accountants' equivalent of PilotLZ's advice about getting your 'second qualification' first?) Now does it take months or years to convert a pilot's qualification from one country to another? (Having done so myself, I can tell you that it is not years!) I will say again, there is no such thing as a 'menial' job to the person who needs that job and is prepared to do it, just as that it in not a 'menial' job to the person who urgently needs it done (like unblocking that drain that was blocked with too much cr*p?).

So please do not decry anyone on here asking for or giving advice to anyone wanting to put effort into to finding other ways of making ends meet when this industry, or the circumstances surrounding it, bowls one of those nasty spin balls their way.

Good luck everyone. If you put the right efforts in now with a good 'frame of mind' whatever you do, you will be able to look back in ten years time at these really extreme conditions and think "yes, I got through that". Do whatever it needs (as long as it is legal!) and don't be put off by someone 'looking down his nose' at you. You could end up a lot happier with life than they are.

Uplinker

4th Aug 2020, 11:35

Well said, Noel.

@ nickler, I see you are new here. Your post #222 and some others come across as being pompous and arrogant. You are also insulting to other posters and other professions; I don't know if you intended that?

Chris the Robot

4th Aug 2020, 11:39

Can I say.. after I got out of flying ( after 36 years and 22000 hours).. I am now a train driver. I love the conditions ( that include 9 weeks annual leave).. sure the money is not the same as I earned as a 777 Captain.. but I am so much happier. No jet lag.. lovely place to work, home at night. Wish I had done it 10 years ago.

SWR are opening a drivers' depot at Feltham which may be of interest to current/former Heathrow-based people if they start recruiting trainees given that it's pretty much next door to the airport.

GWR have also expanded services a lot, they're recruiting for a lot of qualified drivers at the moment though it's worth keeping an eye out to see if they want to recruit trainees at any point. Nearby depots are Reading, Oxford and Paddington.

guy_incognito

4th Aug 2020, 12:36

Can I say.. after I got out of flying ( after 36 years and 22000 hours).. I am now a train driver. I love the conditions ( that include 9 weeks annual leave).. sure the money is not the same as I earned as a 777 Captain.. but I am so much happier. No jet lag.. lovely place to work, home at night. Wish I had done it 10 years ago.

I hope my post didn't come across as being at all denigrating of train driving as a job. There's obviously no comparison between train driving and being a pilot. One involves a secure job with an extremely powerful union protecting everyone's pay and conditions, a stable roster, a sustainable work/life balance, an excellent pension, a fair rate for overtime etc. whereas the other...

nickler: you have a vastly inflated and totally unwarranted sense of your own importance.

Atlantic Explorer

4th Aug 2020, 13:17

nickler: you have a vastly inflated and totally unwarranted sense of your own importance.

Agreed! Well said Guy.

SOPS

4th Aug 2020, 13:30

guy_incognit

No offence taken. I moved into an industry ( by sheer good luck) that is ful of history .. unions and a employer who actually looks after your welfare.

I enjoy going to work every day.,

bringbackthe80s

4th Aug 2020, 14:27

The hard truth is you enjoy it only because you have been an airline pilot for long enough. Forget the unions, this is why it’s not comparable

FMS82

5th Aug 2020, 08:02

Yes I do look down o a "menial" job because I have spent my life working my @rse off to make it up being a captain examiner in one of the most important airlines in the world and yes I do consider myself at a higher social level.

Wow. Deriving your "social level" or your sense of self worth from a job? And the importance of airlines, especially the transport of passengers, can be debated, as this crisis has shown us all.

Back on the topic: There is some great advice and creative options being thrown around here by those willing to open their minds. I'm currently in offshore wind, and HSE is a huge topic. I always think a pilot with a keen understanding of CRM would make a great addition to any HSE department. Yes, would require some additional training, but much of that is available online. With a healthy attitude to picking up some hands-on jobs to build experience, one could relatively quickly develop into an HSE consultant or client rep. The guys / girls we employ in those roles make decent money, travel to interesting places and seem to have a good work/life balance.

Furthermore, I think people are generally freaked out about trying new things, but pilots especially as they have always done the same trick. Maybe at different employers, but fundamentally the same job. Many of my peers and myself had much more variety in their careers. So should get laid off, we have been trained to have an agile mindset to doing new stuff. I myself went from Aerospace Engineering into R&D, then a brief stint in Manufacturing - spent some time in operations, moved to sales, and recently jumped back into project management. Fundamentally different roles in different companies, that just came onto my path and I figured I give them a try.

Meester proach

5th Aug 2020, 14:56

Important thing is to pay the bills , somehow.

I feel lucky that I had the experience of being a pilot, then a jet pilot, then an airline captain - I’m proud of that.

I feel sorry for those who didn’t and due this latest disaster may never get to the flightdeck, promoted or whatever, will not be able to realise their dream.

It is better to love and to have lost than never loved at all...

Private jet

5th Aug 2020, 20:14

frozenpilot

5th Aug 2020, 21:41

I have been a U.K flag carrier Captain with 9000 hours and an electrician, plumber. I can personally attest you will find far more challenges running a company, whilst earning far better money... but most importantly control yours and your families destiny.

100% retain, look at trades and other professions...decouple from the narrow mindedness

PilotLZ

5th Aug 2020, 23:03

There's one more thing which is absolutely fantastic about being your own boss while waiting for your next flying job. Not having to convince anyone (often by being rather dishonest) that you won't run off the very moment a flying job is thrown your way. It's your private party, you needn't explain to anyone why you are doing more, less or no work at any given time. And this is just one perk which adds up to making your own timetable, deciding how much to work, always having something useful and profitable to do whenever there aren't any flights and so on. So, those tradesman skills will only benefit you and enhance your financial security. And, even if you are fortunate enough to never really need them for a living, doing something with your hands is a good way to take your mind off the flight deck every now and again. Not to mention that being able to maintain stuff in your own home without relying on anyone else is nice in itself and can save you quite a bit of money over the years.

guy_incognito

6th Aug 2020, 20:59

I'm not (immediately) at risk of losing my job, as a reasonably well established captain in what should be a safe base in a safe airline (all of that is of course very much subject to change).

However, I have today made the decision to actively look for another career at the earliest possible opportunity. There are a number of reasons for it. Put simply, I don't like flying and I despise the industry in general. I can't see any realistic chance of anything improving. I don't see there being any significant recruitment for pilots for the next decade or more. The fabled "pilot shortage" has never existed, but now the exact opposite of that myth is true. Pilots will be falling over themselves to feast on any meagre scraps the industry throws at them. I said earlier in the thread that captain salaries would fall to the level of train drivers, but without any of the associated benefits of working for a train company. I now think that assessment may prove somewhat optimistic.

I still have a reasonable amount of time to go before I can retire. If it were just me, or even just me and my other half, then I could possibly try to stick it out. However, I can't in good conscience take the serious risk that I'll end up unemployed just at the time when I'll be paying secondary school or university fees for my kids. I genuinely don't see how anybody embarking on a pilot career could ever take the risk of taking on a mortgage, spending money on a car, going on holiday etc. I don't see how anybody embarking on a pilot career could start a family, knowing that there's a very good chance they'll be in a position in the future where their family will end up on the street when they lose their job.

There is no other career that I can think of off hand which is so limiting in terms of transferrable skills; that requires you to be prepared to drop everything and potentially move to the other side of the world just to "stay current"; that has an all pervading narrative from management that you should think yourself bloody lucky to have a job. Anybody who has the means (financial and otherwise) to find another career would be absolutely mad not to pursue another path.

dHMozzie

6th Aug 2020, 22:42

That is a very good decision to make but maybe when you see what options are out there (depending on past work experience) you may think twice before rushing out of aviation! I was made redundant several months ago but I always had a gnawing idea at the back of my mind that I should be doing some training to have something to fall back on, I had a good engineering degree but no work experience. Basically any graduate scheme will see you get at the very most 30k. Admittedly advancement may be fast with the soft skills learned in aviation to help speed things along but outside financial services the peak salary probably won't come close to even the reduced captains salary. I can also only assume that reaching that level will result in long hours and lots of work to take home. You'll get weekends off and more control over your leave etc so that may suit some.

If there is anyone out there reading this who is still employed but doesn't have and previous work experience in another field then start looking at contingency career training now, that is certainly a very good idea. After all it doesnt even take a pandemic to force unemployment, something medical could have the same outcome for an individual. Having to retrain once unemployed is not recommended! I always toyed with the idea of leaving aviation at some point, then it happened and looking at the options I realised I really really didn't know what I had till it was gone.

Riskybis

7th Aug 2020, 07:48

Looks like you are an Emirates A380 skipper ?
you should first hand know about redundancies and slave labour ?
or are you a local who is immune ?
Your attitude is frankly pathetic and an embarrassment to our fellow professionals

PilotLZ

7th Aug 2020, 10:33

I remain a firm advocate of the concept that you should get your backup qualification before you start flying. In an ideal world, you should also get a year or two of experience in the field. And one of the purposes this serves is that thus you will have a working knowledge of what a "real" job is like and you will have a more realistic view on the pros and cons of commercial flying. Many of those who have done nothing else other than flying have a very marginal understanding of what working life outside of the flight deck is like. And this often fills them with frustration with their "low salaries", "long hours" and "modern slavery". While, if you actually have something to compare flying to, it won't take you long to understand that, even after the COVID-19 salary reductions, it's quite well paid and, in addition, you get to work with many quality people and enjoy a decent amount of time off.

Of course, this still doesn't mean that it has to be appealing for everyone. Just as any other career. So, if you want to walk away simply because it's not your cup of tea - by all means do. But, if you think that by changing careers you will significantly improve your income and lifestyle, this might not be the case. At least not for many years from now, until you become the experienced and established professional who can expect anything close to the dreaded, "poverty-range" 70K Captain salary.

nickler

7th Aug 2020, 13:17

Riskybis

Looks like You do not have much in common with Sherlock Holmes, do You ?

Anyway, yes, former 380 skipper, decided to leave end of 2019 when everything was still roses and butterflies (well more or less) to join a well established European LCC as DEC based home.
I did decide at that time that I wanted to take a few months off to re-establish my life back home after 20 years of palms and dunes and join beginning of April. All setup, all ready. Got screwed.
Guys that joined with an OCC 2 months before me got in, initially furloughed but flying now. Next job ? Who knows.

nickler

7th Aug 2020, 13:35

PilotLZ

Agree 50/50.

There are not many jobs You can compare ours with. We do take a sheet-load of responsibilities every time we are out there and face HUGE liabilities towards the Law. In certain countries if you screw up, be it your fault or not, you end up in jail before they figure out what to do with you.
As pilots we do need to be on top of our game every single time we go out flying, especially as captains ; you're the last line of defence. If the FO's grumpy because of partying or because he's been dumped by his moroccan girlfriend then you still need to fly 2/3/4/5/600+ people safely from A to B.
In many office jobs you can ****-up with no big outcomes ; in ours if you do clip the wing tip of your ride on somebody's else's tail even by a few inches you make the news. and thousands of pax are affected immediately.

So basically I am not (yet) ready to be a plumber.

FRYVA

7th Aug 2020, 20:43

He comes across as a total :mad: especially the class remarks... But he’s not entirely wrong.

I’m practically a hobbyist these days and in the process of being canned for the final time. Generally not too bothered.

Secondary occupation built up over the last decade as a property developer/investor. Does pretty well.

Echo the thoughts of others... Retraining or running your own business is infinitely more challenging than most flying jobs. It takes resolve you probably don’t know you have and you’ll have more days than you can count that resemble the worst sim checks imagineable. Be prepared to spend a lot of time (potentially years and years) working without tangible reward.

Buf once you do, you’ll realise that all but the top end of Legacy payscale/lifestyle are relatively uninteresting by comparison.

If you do it and STICK at it, then you likely wont regret dropping the flying and the compromise that comes with it.

Best of luck to everybody.

Meester proach

8th Aug 2020, 14:27

Problem is you need some resources to even begin things like property development.

What you need to be is in at the start of something new and big ....like micro scooters years ago...

FRYVA

8th Aug 2020, 14:35

Simply not true and if you drop me a PM i’ll more than happily give you a big hint how.

DRA Dave

8th Aug 2020, 15:28

guy_incognito

As someone who left the job after 16 years of commercial flying after being thoroughly fed up of it, I can sympathise with your situation. I am now driving trains for a living and the difference to my personal and family quality of life is immeasurable compared to before. I took a smallish pay cut but worth every penny.

I’d certainly recommend it to anyone who is thinking of getting out or who has lost their job, as there is no cost to get qualified and thereafter job security for life with a nice pension to boot.

Good luck to everyone hanging on.

PilotLZ

8th Aug 2020, 18:48

The main resource you need for any career to work is time. For train driving, the training is at least a year (but, unlike aviation, trainees usually get a decent scholarship right from day one). For any private business, it also takes time to make things work and actually start earning steadily. So, you just need to accept that anything worth undertaking will not be a quick fix but rather a long-term commitment.

cessnaxpilot

8th Aug 2020, 22:18

When the economy is good and airlines are growing and promotions happen quickly, everyone is happy. When things are going backwards, nobody is happy. This industry has always been cyclical, and there are ups and downs. This obviously is not a good time for pilots! Who knows what it will look like in five or ten years.

I have worked many jobs outside of aviation, and I have enjoyed different aspects of every job I’ve had. Some jobs did not pay that much, but they were very interesting.

For someone just beginning this career, I completely agree that it is better to have a back up career with experience. For those of already in this business, obviously now is the time to look at possible back up jobs.

I remember when I returned to an airline after being made redundant and people asked me why I came back. I had a great job at a law practice and I actually enjoyed the legal field. The truth was I enjoy aviation more. In the other profession it was difficult to take time off. One also had to worry about many other aspects of the business; support staff, bills, insurance, clients, etc. that being said, I am confident that if I had a medical issue and could not fly, I would be able to find another job. There is no job beneath me, and I am sure I would find aspects of any job interesting and new... at least for a while.

I wish everyone luck! These are difficult times, but I am confident we will all land on our feet. If you enjoy aviation, don’t give up on it forever. It’s never fun when one has to work more for less money (many airlines cutting pay and changing T&C), but I can also tell you the grass is not always greener on the other side of the fence (jobs outside of aviation).