Working Life After Flying

[PilotLZ]

It's not completely impossible, but luck and connections play 10 times their normal role these days. Forget about the regular way of application via an online system. Nobody will do that for a long time to come because nobody has the time or willingness to read through 1000 applications for 1 or 2 openings. Vacancies are so scarce that almost every employer already has someone in mind for each of them before they have even opened.

My suggestion would be to try and look into getting ANY job with an air operator of some kind for the sake of getting a foot into the door. Even if it's a job manning a reception desk. In this way, you stand a chance of being promoted internally when the time comes. And, by that time, you will have diversified your knowledge with learning some areas of the business other than flying - which will position you better for your future career progression.

[AOGspanner]

guy_incognito.

Aircraft maintenance engineer... Same problems but a lot less pay, and not as transferable as you'd think. You would still have to retrain from the bottom in any other mechanic or engineering trade

[PilotLZ]

Finding the actual job is not a purpose, but rather a consequence of staying motivated and knowledgeable and keeping in touch with your aviation network. That's one way to look at it. Those are the sort of trying times when you need all your resilience. And the fact that you don't give up at the first sign of trouble, as some people are inclined to do, will speak a lot of you to any future employers. Also, cynical as it may sound, it's a sort of a practice run where you can learn about how to manage times of crisis. Things like that happen in aviation every 10 years or so. For a 40-year career, you're likely to live through at least 3 large-scale airline bloodbaths with thousands of unemployed pilots out there. The reasons could be anything - a pandemic, an economic collapse, a petroleum crisis. But the result for our brethren is always the same. So, now it's a good time to work out how to be best prepared for the next one which, for one reason or another, will happen around 2030 or so. Keep calm and carry on. Life hasn't stopped, or at least not for too long.

[bringbackthe80s]

First off I feel for anyone who lost their jobs and means of putting food on the table, it’s awful. A job is a job, and it should be taken as such. At least in my case an absolute necessity to feed my family.

I have to say though I find it funny reading all these threads with people talking about the good old days (up to 6 months ago) and anxiously waiting for the world to be a sensible place again.

To be honest the things that come to mind are the endless 4 legs days with delays and crap from drunken passengers.
The long long weeks waking up at 4 am on a rainy November day and the constant moaning from pretty much everybody from ramp agents to copilots.
The feeling of being totally knackered, completely useless for months at the time, with the company changing my schedule weekly if not daily.
The stress of coming up with a holiday idea to try and recover, only to be even more stressed once back home.
The constant talk from management of the need to cut costs because times are tough (were they?? Really??).
The repetitive pattern of a groundhog day, where everyone is pretty much miserable until the next picture they post on instagram where all of a sudden no one is complaining about discretion or going into their day off anymore (hang on, wasn’t that the FIRST thing you told me at the briefing?!).

And this comes from someone who is blessed to be within the the LUCKY FEW with a stable job and good income for a good few years.

I could go on, but I won’t. It’s just to give a bit of perspective, and to remind ourselves to enjoy the moment because be careful what you wish for could never be more true come the end of the pandemic era.

[Uplinker]

Some good points from PilotLZ and bringbackthe80's.

It always bugged me that we pilots and crew were sudsidising our passengers' cheap tickets by accepting the rosters and conditions we had, while our CEOs and senior managers were raking in their million pound salaries while sound asleep at 0500 when we were already at work. We should all have gone on strike for better rosters.

I used to have very little trouble sleeping at odd times and then getting up at 0400 to get ready to drive to work - I ate a healthy diet, kept fit and took regular exercise. I fitted black-out blinds to the bedroom and got headphones for Mrs Uplinker to watch the telly (in the lounge) while I was sleeping.

But, after a year of not flying, I don't miss those earlies or those rosters !

[Meester proach]

Same old problem with a job where it’s someone’s “ dream “, the fact they will do anything to get a foot in the door means they will trample their granny for an opportunity ,let alone their colleagues.

Thus you never have full team think even with a union .

[Joe R]

[long time reader, first time poster]

I decided to become a pilot when I was five, and decided to quit flying when I was thirty-five and a captain. I went into management consulting at a Big Three consultancy. Here are some thoughts, well-intended.

Thoughts on working as a pilot

Piloting a four-engine long range jet through the night, over a foreign continent, above the lights of cities the names of which you'll never know (shame on you, Lido) while exchanging dirty jokes with your colleague and earning money for it? That is the best job you can have. Full stop. Don't appreciate the pprune rants too much. There are only two key points to consider:
First key point is not to make it your only stake. Because if your livelihood depends on Medical+License+Economy, there are too many variables you do not control. Also, as every industry, as flying moves from exclusivity to commodity, industry margins, wages will go down. This is economics 101, and no union will ever stop this.
Second key point is to meditate deeply if it is acceptable that the smartness/impactfulness relation for the pilot job is unfavourable. You need to be pretty smart to do the job (more precise: to do the right thing when the s* hits the fan, not necessarily at 30° west), however, you will leave no dent whatsoever in the universe. And there is an easy path to burnout when the work doesn't feel purposeful. This is the part that moved me away from flying.

Thoughts on working as a consultant

I now work more in a week than most pilots log block hours in a month.
I never knew that I still had to learn that much. About the world, about me, everything.
There is no 30° West moment. The mental load of the work is raw data ILS with gusts, all the time, 08AM to 12PM.
On the upside - there is a huge dent in the universe now, and that dent is mine. In one of my first projects, I helped to put together key analyses for sustainable fuels, hydrogen aviation and the commercial viability of these technologies; the work has influenced hundreds of industry leaders, including some in Toulouse. When my son asks my what I did for his generation - I have an anwer.
There are less dirty jokes, but I really do enjoy the presence of smart colleagues, and having really inspirational conversations about math, religion, logic or ethics over a late night pizza in the office. Didn't happen to me that much in aviation.

Thoughts on working in everything else

As a consultant, I have the chance to peek into many corporates. Verdict: working as a corporate ant is well paid, but dull - and most of the corporates I have seen have a really bad culture, nothing comparable to the work atmosphere with a crew of halfway well-selected, well-trained and CRM-proficient colleagues.
There are so many other opportunities I never knew about or thought about as a pilot. Join a startup in NY, Berlin or TelAviv. Learn coding at microverse.org. Become a freelance designer/writer/editor/researcher at upwork or Fiverr. Become an official at a public national or supranational institution. Become a Kindergarten gardener helping kids to grow their own tomatoes. Drive ambulance.

Thoughts on your qualifications and way forward.
Here are some things I learned about qualifications transferrable and not transferrable to the pedestrian job world.

A master's degree (a real one, not stolen from Embry-Riddle) + you are still in your thirties? Good, some corporate roles are probably open for you.
Not in your thirties anymore, but you have a master? Try higher-ranked public sector jobs in lower-tier institutions
Not in your thirties anymore, or no academic degree? I'd suggest not bothering getting a degree. Instead, go to coursera.org, or edx, get a MicroMaster in e.g. DataScience and try to land a job with that. You would need to refresh matrices and multivariate calculus, though.
Master's + 2-3 years of work experience in a tech startup or a managerial role in the airline + not too much above thirty? Consultancy might be open to you.
You learned a craft? Probably the best of all situations. At least in my country, there is a s*load of money you can earn with this. And you can still do it as a part-time hustle once flying picks up...
Problem solving: as pilots, we think we are trained in that, but we really are not. What we lack are divergent / creative problem solving techniques, like Design Thinking. While flying, the solution to any problem and the desired and state is to land the plane safely. In business, we a) often don't even know what the problem is b) need to invent the checklist and c) may have completely different viable solutions.
Interpersonal skills: as flight crew members, we are better trained than most other pedestrians. Way better. Leverage that in your interviews.

I do wish everyone of you the best luck going through this crisis. I for my part, am not done with flying yet. Hopefully before not too long, we'll all be de-dusting our logbooks,
slip the surly bonds of earth
and dance the skies on laughter-silvered wings.

[Meester proach]

Interesting missive .

I don’t want to leave a dent in the universe but used to leave a few in runways .

consultancy wise - any of these desk jobs have an in tray that builds . Flying doesn’t other than the odd ASR etc. That is a big selling point for flying . When you get off you are done .

[finestkind]

Found it interesting on one of our Aussie shows that laid off pilots (Captains included) where being trained to operate harvesters for the up coming season. Although not a long term job certainly will pay the bills.

[Snr]

Meester proach

This. I've been keeping myself busy since being made redundant this year, but this is possibly what I miss the most. Chocks on and I clock off. As you say, the exception of the (hopefully odd) ASR and that's it. I can go home and not worry about emails, to-do lists, keeping the laptop open until midnight. That's worth so much more than the pay check.

[Tartiflette Fan]

@finestking

Why would they need any ? Is there an on-going shortage ?

[Sam Ting Wong]

Good post, Joe.

[hunterboy]

Thanks Joe.....nice to have constructive posts on a thread like this.....

[lederhosen]

Good post Joe and I am pleased that you have found something you enjoy. I did it the other way around, moving from partner in a big consulting firm back into flying. Both are great jobs. Consulting was much better paid than being a jet captain and that financial cushion made the vagaries and uncertainties of airline flying a lot easier to bear. One caveat I would make however, is that consulting can be an up or out type of job. By that I mean over time you either work your way up the ranks or get let go. There is a degree of slaloming between firms till you find your place. But the number of consultants that remain in a consultancy till retirement is quite small. It is essentially a young man's game. Although having said that my wife (somewhat younger) has gone back to consulting full-time, which solves the problem of me suddenly being home a lot more.

I always loved flying and having flown for a while between university and consulting I was happy to get back in the air. Timing is everything and things worked out. I flew Boeings and various models of Airbus till I was sixty and rather assumed most people made it that far. A rather sobering article I just read, quoted some studies that said that even prior to Corona a lot of airline pilots did not continue flying that long. The gist of it was that after age 43 about five percent of Airline pilots per year stopped flying. So of the entire cohort only 11 percent made it to sixty. I find it a bit hard to believe. But I suppose if you add up the people that fail medicals and checks, lose their jobs for other reasons, not least their airline going bust and those who find something they prefer (like Joe) then maybe it is not so outrageous.

[PilotLZ]

I'm not surprised with the figure of before-60 retirements and career changes. Not in the slightest. After age 45 or so, most people tend to reevaluate their priorities, even if that means downshifting in the name of a more relaxed life. I've seen people in their late 40s or early 50s leave flying for a lower-paid job on the ground or exchange a major carrier for some small and unknown charter operation where much less flying is done each month/year. What is tolerable at 30 is no longer tolerable at 50.

[Chris the Robot]

Slightly off of the consulting topic but...

https://jobs.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/vacancy.aspx?ref=2020-223

East Midlands Railway are doing an online open day about the train driver roles that they'll likely advertise at some point. I know it's something that I've banged on about a bit on this thread but this is an opportunity for those who are interested to found out more about the career directly from a major employer without having to leave the front room. When the franchise was run by the previous operator, EMT, pretty much all externals started out as depot drivers. I don't know if it's still the case at EMR but that was pretty much unique to EMT, it's possible to straight into mainline work pretty much everywhere else.

[Meester proach]

I don’t know anyone who has traded aviation willingly for anything else . Quite the reverse , lots of old boys hanging in there doggedly into the 60s. And KLM retireees who found golf and gardening too dull at 55...and wanted to carry on.

The only ones I’ve known pack it in are those to whom it was a side interest and their real job made more money - but can count that number on one hand

[lederhosen]

My experience was the same and I note your emphasis on the word willingly. I suppose it depends where you worked. If you were in a series of companies that went bust you probably know more people who involuntarily were forced to move on to other things. At least every ten years there has been a major downturn. I can think of the oil crisis, two gulf wars, the 2008 financial crisis and now Corona to name but a few things that caused problems for aviation employment. Add in the move from three man to two man cockpit when I was starting out and people with loss of licence insurance deciding they had had enough of low cost bottom feeders and the numbers who have packed it in early mounts up. There has been tremendous growth in pilot jobs over the last ten years. But a lot of those have been taken by people under 43. Probably an outlier, but even legacy carrier captains choose to move on. For example Carlo Kitzlinger the actor in 7500 was a Lufthansa A320 captain.

[Ancient Observer]

One area of consultancy that is thriving at the moment is HR.
I realise that most HR in most airlines is hardly strategic/dynamic, and some of it is so much like our UK Government - running a useless omni-shambles, but the experience of a recently redundant pilot might be relevant.

The downside is that a lot of the current work is firing people. But if you carefully researched the law and required processes when you were made redundant, you might already have something to offer a consultancy - even if, tactically, you are using it to get your foot in the door.
Naturally, lots of research is required, and maybe some counter-intuitive thinking - the smaller, local consultancies are where the growth is - the big multi-nationals are just shuffling staff around.

[PoacherNowGamekeeper]

nickler

A "higher social level"...?

What an outdated and snobbish opinion.

[PoacherNowGamekeeper]

A mate of mine recently had a part of his house redecorated by an out of work VS Captain.

Did a real nice job and a nice guy too. More importantly, wasn't afraid to do "menial" work (as described here by some) when needs must.

[Joe R]

[...]One caveat I would make however, is that consulting can be an up or out type of job. By that I mean over time you either work your way up the ranks or get let go. [..]

This is true. Great life story, by the way!

[Meester proach]

I’m not afraid to do menial work - it’s interesting to see people’s attitudes from the other side.

I’m glad now that I always made the effort to chat to the refuellers, cleaners etc to make them feel part of the team and equally as important, as I can see some condescending attitudes when I’m out there in the real world.

Whatever happens , after 7 months off, I’ve got to do something so I do .

[PoacherNowGamekeeper]

Yep true - I'm just thinking about the crews that have just delivered BA 744s IVB and IVY to Kemble and St Athan. End of their careers possibly. Very sad.

[nickler]

PoacherNowGamekeeper

This is what sociology is based upon as of today.

[White Van Driver]

PoacherNowGamekeeper

I think they'll be ok. one is the director of flight operations. the others are probably (not 100% sure) in the crs pool getting paid 2/3 salary while awaiting a type rating on the 777 in the next 2 years.

[PoacherNowGamekeeper]

I take your point, but I was thinking about the 744 crews as a whole, both flight deck and cabin crew.

[Private jet]

A lot of Airline types suddenly now thinking Corporate aviation is the promised land and that they are superbly "qualified" to do it. Delusion, on a mass scale. Firstly, the number of opportunities are tiny and secondly please, please, please go get a job in a supermarket, you will be much more suited to that way of life.

[captain g l walker]

Private jet

What a disgraceful thing to say, on a thread that you know is populated by people in very dire straights indeed.

Enjoying your moment are we? Well done you. To be fair, you're probably still frothy after your unexpected emulation and you certainly won't be intelligent enough to realise that it wasn't skill that left you with a chair when the music stopped.

In fact, judging by the way the industry is evolving, I'm sure you'll go far. Meanwhile, the prospect of sharing a cockpit with handschuhschneeballwerfer like you is probably one of the reasons that experienced transport pilots - the future of flight safety - are quickly coming to terms with calling it a day.

Enjoy your Corporate aviation party, you lucky thing.

[ZeBedie]

Private jet

Afraid of competition from some who may be better trained and more experienced?

[Private jet]

ZeBedie

Where do I say that airline pilots can't operate an aircraft? I'm saying many are fundamentaly unsuitable for Corporate aviation in terms of their personality, that is all. Also if any pilot was truly commited to this corner of the industry they would have made it their ambition from day one, rather than now, as a safe port in a storm... One last thing, before you start talking about safety, I believe statistically NCC/Part91 ops are safer than airline.

[Private jet]

captain g l walker

Yes you're right. When the sun was shining airline folk had no interest in corporate NCC/part91, so jog on now, sunshine...

[TBSC]

Pls remind me not to hire you as my pilot if I ever hit the jackpot.

[Private jet]

No problem, I'll remind you now, Don't hire me, I'm not available, Goodnight.

[Satoshi Nakamoto]

"A neighbour of mine who is a BBC journalist in Kent/Sussex would like to do a story about crew who have changed career due to Covid. If you would like to tell them your story please send me a message and I will put you in touch with them."

Airline pilot to supermarket delivery van driver thanks to the BBC and their narrative.

[FlyingStone]

One last thing, before you start talking about safety, I believe statistically NCC/Part91 ops are safer than airline.

I find that hard to believe. Can you provide a source of such statistics?

[CW247]

Private Jet, that's a truly stupid comment. Whilst we all get the fact that the job entails a different way of thinking and working, it's wrong to assume all airline pilots are used to having everything done for them and handed on a plate. There are airline pilots (and bizjet pilots) who are not fit enough to be pilots full stop. There are airline pilots who should've been bizjet pilots from the word go and everything in between. Most of us don't get to choose the type of job we end up getting. You're a lucky guy.

[Joe le Taxi]

The reality is somewhere in between IMO - the airline pilot mentality often seems to be trying to find a reason why a flight can't or shouldn't go, whereas a corporate pilot is looking for ways in which it can go, or alternative solutions. But the incompetent outliers who really shouldn't be allowed near any heavy machinery, do tend to find refuge in the biz jet world, and there they stay - FSI training is slightly better than airline training in my experience, but they very rarely seem to outright fail their trainees. I hate being an airline "drone" and am busting to go back to corporate. Retired flag carrier pilots in the latter that I have come across have almost always created a path of destruction - angry clients, upset colleagues, horrified ops/bosses.

[nickler]

A lot of Airline types suddenly now thinking Corporate aviation is the promised land and that they are superbly "qualified" to do it. Delusion, on a mass scale. Firstly, the number of opportunities are tiny and secondly please, please, please go get a job in a supermarket, you will be much more suited to that way of life.

Started my career in corporate OPS 25 years ago, private owner, great experience for a couple of years, till I transitioned to airlines. Reason was mainly money and career, as both of them were non existent in that context although I am well aware there are plenty of well paid well handled Corporate Ops.

Quick feedback having seen both sides of the spectrum : You can quickly train an experienced airline Captain coming from a respectable airline to the required mindset of corporate OPS. The tech part is obviously granted.
The other way around does not work. I have trained on the A330/A340 and A380 plenty of super hero G550/G650 guys who had flown the world's most important super stars and politicians and were expecting a direct left seat position because of that but soon realized (sometimes the hard way) that it does not work that well.

[nickler]

The reality is somewhere in between IMO - the airline pilot mentality often seems to be trying to find a reason why a flight can't or shouldn't go, whereas a corporate pilot is looking for ways in which it can go, or alternative solutions.

Depends. In a highly unionized airline it is possibile, whereas in other "performance driven" gigs it is the opposite and the troublemakers are quickly shown either the right seat or the door.

[PilotLZ]

Apart from the individual and his/her skills and attitude, everything also depends on the particular operator. There are operators with great standards of safety, maintenance and everything both in the airline and in the corporate world. There are also some fine examples of the exact opposite in both worlds. If one place is looking for a professional pilot who puts safety first and another one is looking for a flying cowboy who will be pressing on with the flight no matter what, then of course their staff is not mutually transferable. And each one will be looking to employ "their" type of people who will be a good fit to their culture and mentality.

[beachbumflyer]

nickler

And why do you think is that? Going from corporate to airline does not work that well.

[PilotLZ]

IMHO, the term "corporate" is way too broad to be put into context. There's a massive difference between flying for a two-crew owner operation which is a world of its own and flying for a large business jet charter company. Remark: some of those companies provide ops support to aircraft owners, so, while you might have signed a contract with a large charter establishment, you'll only be working on one aircraft with a handful of other people, being confined to this small world of its own.

So, what's the potential problem with flying with the same guy for years on end and not really being subordinate to a large organisation? Standardisation. This environment is the perfect breeding ground for all sorts of informal techniques and practices, just because there's nobody to insist on doing otherwise. And, if you take that a bit too close to heart, you might fall flat on your face the moment you go to an airline where you'll be required to stick to a rigid SOP. My observations are that some corporate guys struggle with that exact aspect of airline flying. Their flying skills may be good, their organisational skills are usually above-average, they often know more about flight planning than any airline guy - but the somewhat lax attitude towards following firmly set procedures often plays a bad joke on them.

[stoneangel]

I fly for a corporate, and we DO have rigid SOP... we DO have line checks, oh and guess what, we do have OMB...funny to read this comments. And most of our pilots move eventually to airlines without any problems at all. The other way is a bit more complicated. A few of them , who passed Wizzair, are crying out to come back with us haha... not a chance for them, we don't hire anyway.

CRM is VERY important in corporate where you spend several days together. In an airline, flying with an a**h***, is ok, you can put him on black list or if you are lucky enouch (big "factory"), you will probably not fly with him again in the next few months.
anyway, the most important is to have a seat , the rest is about litterature ;)

[Meester proach]

Jeez. He’s just trolling .

I’ve done airline all versions and corporate VIP and VVIP.

It works both ways - in the VViP world you have more exposure to the customer and this requires more diplomatic skills with often high net worth individuals, but equally some corporate are not suited to airlines

[Mooneyboy]

There’s a black list? News to me!

[Joe le Taxi]

Some airlines allow crews to request not to be rostered with So and So.

[flyboy146]

Private jet

You sir/madam, are a fool. We are all flying a similar bit of metal and if you hadn’t noticed, the people behind you, paying you, couldn’t care less about you or your personality which is similar to that of a haggard old vulture. Go crawl back under your rock. I hope the moderators deal with you.

[nickler]

Private jet

My friend, to get in corporate ops the most important thing You need is connections / know the owner(s). Besides large operators like Netjets and similar, there are no assessments whatsoever or the assessment is a phone call with Your sponsor telling the boss You are a good guy.
Now a lot of pilots have spent their time trying to get better in their profession rather than trying to hook up people that could introduce them to other people who could eventually land them a job in a G650 after many years of harse licking. The day I will see job postings for non rated pilots on those kind of machines with airline-like assessments (tech/sims, etc.) then we will be talking the same language.