Tail strike crew swap seats

[GKOC41]

Is this true?

Accident: Shanghai B738 at Shanghai on Jan 3rd 2020, tail strike on landing, captain and first officer swapped seats in flight (http://avherald.com/h?article=4d583fbf&opt=0)

[gearlever]

Swapping seats before tail strike?
For what reason?

[Imagegear]

I suspect that someone was going to catch a rocket and a decision was made to place responsibility where it belonged.

the captain occupying the right hand seat (although not licensed as an instructor) was pilot monitoring. Following the balked landing the crew engaged the autopilot, and while the autopilot was active, swapped their seats, the captain returning into the left hand seat, the first officer into the right hand seat, both leaving their seats at the same time. In addition, the captain was required to wear far vision correction according to his medical, but did not wear his vision correction.

IG

[Uplinker]

Wow. It amazes me that things like this still happen. Apart from the obvious stupidity of a non-TRE PIC allowing seat swapping on a revenue flight, this shows that motor responses of the left and right sides of the brain are not equal.

The right side of the brain controls the left limbs of the body, and vice versa. Swapping seats means swapping the sides of the brain in control of the thrust levers and the yoke. Also, the view of the landing from the other seat will have the various visual cues during the flare flipped left to right.

Any motor control within in the brain requires practice and repetition to develop and produce the fine hand-eye coordination required with flight control. Just try writing with your other hand to show that.

Allowing an untrained and unpractised person to swap seats in flight and then attempt the fine control needed to land is such utter stupidity.

[PW1830]

Instructors fly and are annually checked on operating from both seats. Never pleasant!

[Airbubba]

Wow. It amazes me that things like this still happen.

Those unauthorized seat swaps were common at some carriers years ago. It was considered 'cool' to put the flight engineer in the FO seat to give him or her a landing.

About three decades ago in MIA the 727 captain did the seat swap at the gate. The FO had been at the panel before so he remembered enough to run the plumbing for a leg. The FE in the right seat briefed the taxi, takeoff and departure as a jumpseat rider was waiting to say hello at the cockpit door. You know where this one is going.

The jumpseat rider was an FAA inspector with his form 110A onboard to observe the sector. Things went well, the FE got a little coaching from the captain and made a good landing at DCA. The fed said 'good job boys! and got off.

A couple of weeks later the fed was back in MIA talking to the base chief pilot. He said he had line checked an FO who had the same last name, he flies the plane well. The chief pilot said 'Yeah, he's my cousin. But he hasn't upgraded to FO yet.'

The FE with an FO line check in his training folder ended up at ValuJet/AirTran/Southwest. His chief pilot cousin went to United I believe.

Some airlines allow two captains to fly together under some circumstances so all captains are theoretically trained to fly in the right seat. I was never keen on this concept even though the guy in the right seat usually got hefty premium pay under our contract. The few times I ended up in the right seat as a captain I agreed to buy dinner if the colleague in the left seat would make all the landings.

[Check Airman]

That something went wrong does not surprise me in the slightest. My only question here is why on earth they’d swap seats. Never have I been in an airplane and wondered what it’d be like to fly from the other seat.

Why on earth would you switch seats?

[easyJetCrew]

This is unbelievable. How did they know they'd swapped seats though...?

[esscee]

Pointless as the CVR will pick up the voices on different channels!

[Loose rivets]

When it was decreed that FO's would have to do their P1 u/s flying from the right, there was a colossal hugh and cry about it. We FO's wanted that left seat experience, though swapping headsets with a captain that smoked 60 a day was a tad off-putting. I recall French pilots saying in a UK national paper that they wouldn't get the skills they needed. About this time someone suggested I got the Viscount on my PPL. I looked recently, not being sure, but it's on my PPL and there were a few hours logged as P1. Empty sectors, I assume.

Any time spent TREing would soon dispel any concerns about swapping seats, but the concept of relying on an autopilot is horrifying. An awkward movement - stabbing one's head on the overhead buttons and ewwwww. Doesn't bear thinking about.

[Phantom Driver]

Some airlines allow two captains to fly together under some circumstances so all captains are theoretically trained to fly in the right seat. I was never keen on this concept even though the guy in the right seat usually got hefty premium pay under our contract. The few times I ended up in the right seat as a captain I agreed to buy dinner if the colleague in the left seat would make all the landings.

We had an F/O doing upgrade assessment ( usually done from his normal position- the right seat ) . This particular training Captain decided to put him in the left seat for some of the sectors . Rather brave , as that particular mark of the 76 had no nosewheel steering tiller on the right side . Of course , this news got back to Fleet Office pdq and said Captain found himself warming the right seat permanently for another year while he served out his demotion .

On later outfits with the arrival of long range flights and augmented crew , it was normal to have 2 Capts and 1 F/O on some sectors . Actually preferred this to the other option used when we would have 1 Capt and 2 F/O's , one being a "cruise Captain" . Never really felt comfortable being back in the bunk with 2 other guys in charge of a ship with my signature in the logbook .

Agreed , right seat ops in the 2 Captain scenario was never comfortable either . You had to do a right seat check in the bi-annual sim , ( not something we looked forward to ; V1 cuts and manual approach to minimums and an engine out G/A flown from a strange seat always required a lot of work remembering which hands and feet did what .. It was also a fail item if you didn't get it quite right , and some checkers didn't even let you have a practice beforehand ; " not enough sim time left " was the usual excuse ).

Fortunately , the powers that be decided that we were not allowed to land from the RHS on actual ops unless you were a qualified training Captain . No arguments with that
.

[megan]

The right side of the brain controls the left limbs of the body, and vice versa. Swapping seats means swapping the sides of the brain in control of the thrust levers and the yoke. Also, the view of the landing from the other seat will have the various visual cues during the flare flipped left to right.

Any motor control within in the brain requires practice and repetition to develop and produce the fine hand-eye coordination required with flight control. Just try writing with your other hand to show that.

Allowing an untrained and unpractised person to swap seats in flight and then attempt the fine control needed to land is such utter stupidityIn our operation on an extremely rare occasions we had two captains fly together, night flights always, whenever in the co-pilot roll I refused to assume the PF role, was so uncomfortable in that seat, had always flown the aircraft single pilot previously before two crew were dictated. Following is an extreme example of Uplinker's thrust.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

[fox niner]

Swapping seats inflight is total madness, I agree. But flying in the L or R seat is not all that different.
Example: why don’t I totally crash a rental car in south africa/the UK/australia? Doing the clutch or steering wheel my other hand does not cause such a short circuit as riding the bike in the YouTube shown above.

[megan]

But flying in the L or R seat is not all that differentI don't know about you, but sitting in the other seat, rather than automatically being able to lay your hand on a particular switch etc I had to stop and think about it and eyeball where in space the desired item resided.

A rather extreme example was an F-16 instructor being checked out in a PA-28, on approaching touchdown the instructor called for a go around. The F-16 chap pushed forward with his left hand and pulled back with his right as he would in his fighter, would have been OK had he been sat in the right seat, but not the left where he was.

[Ascend Charlie]

I never found it a problem stepping from a chopper (cyclic right, collective left) into a Navajo or Aerocommander an hour later ((wheel in left, throttles right) but I DID have a problem alternating between a Navajo and a Baron, as the machines had swapped the gear lever for the flaps. (After-landing checks, retract flaps...that flap lever feels funny, like it's got a knob on it .. oops..)

[Uplinker]

Swapping seats inflight is total madness, I agree. But flying in the L or R seat is not all that different.
Example: why don’t I totally crash a rental car in south africa/the UK/australia? Doing the clutch or steering wheel my other hand does not cause such a short circuit as riding the bike in the YouTube shown above.

A car is moving very slowly compared to an aircraft as it lands, and the car only needs to be controlled in 2 dimensions, without any yaw to consider. The car is not pushed off course by the atmosphere. So there is more time and capacity for your conscious brain to control the unfamiliar motor movements of an opposite drive car. The equivalent of mishandling aircraft thrust levers is to miss a gear in a car, but you would just slow down, (or over-rev the engine), neither of which are fatal in a car but could be in an aircraft.

You never have to land a car at 140 mph...... !

Having the visual cues reversed left to right can be really tricky in an opposite drive car - roundabouts and turning into side roads can be very awkward because the brain will try to revert to what it is used to.

It is not impossible with practice, and TREs and some flight deck practise operating from the other seat. The problem in this thread is that both pilots swapped seats with no training or practise, and then attempted a highly critical manoeuvre, demanding fine motor control and instinctive dexterity with everything crossed left to right.

megan's point about which hand pushes and which one pulls is also very valid, when an instinctive reaction is required.

[Chiefttp]

Flying heavies in the USAF, I was amazed at how difficult is was to to Air Refueling from the right seat versus the standard left seat position when I upgraded to AR Instructor. It took awhile to adjust.

[Chu Chu]

If a car had the gas pedal on the left and the clutch on the right, it might be pretty dangerous. But luckily they don't. It's pretty hard to mistake the door handle for the gear shift, so about the worst that can happen control-wise is signaling a turn with your windshield wipers.

[Webby737]

Swapping seats inflight is total madness, I agree. But flying in the L or R seat is not all that different.
Example: why don’t I totally crash a rental car in south africa/the UK/australia? Doing the clutch or steering wheel my other hand does not cause such a short circuit as riding the bike in the YouTube shown above.

Try driving the car at night with little visual clues.
It's easy enough during the day with something to follow but very easy to make a mistake when you're in the middle of nowhere at night.

[MikeSnow]

If a car had the gas pedal on the left and the clutch on the right, it might be pretty dangerous. But luckily they don't. It's pretty hard to mistake the door handle for the gear shift, so about the worst that can happen control-wise is signaling a turn with your windshield wipers.

My uncle spent 4 years in Japan driving from the right seat. When he came back he attempted to drive a car from the left seat. On the first try he hit his head on the left window quite hard, when he attempted to look back while reversing the car. He gave up and said he will try again next day when his head stops hurting.

Also, I drove my first 250k miles in a car with manual transmission. After switching to an automatic, it took me about a week to get used to not having a clutch pedal. Whenever I didn't focus hard enough I would end up braking with both legs on the brake pedal, and way too hard. At some point I almost caused an accident as a result.

[Check Airman]

I can confirm from first hand experience that flying from the “wrong” seat has potential to end badly if proper precautions are not taken.

[gearlever]

As long there is anyone in any seat...

Old 707 days, E&E compartment, ehrrm...:cool:

[megan]

signaling a turn with your windshield wipersAnd that can happen quite easily, some manufacturers have the signal stalk on the right and wipers on the left, others have them reversed. Ask me how I know.

[hans brinker]

Swapping seats inflight is total madness, I agree. But flying in the L or R seat is not all that different.
Example: why don’t I totally crash a rental car in south africa/the UK/australia? Doing the clutch or steering wheel my other hand does not cause such a short circuit as riding the bike in the YouTube shown above.

If a car had the gas pedal on the left and the clutch on the right, it might be pretty dangerous. But luckily they don't. It's pretty hard to mistake the door handle for the gear shift, so about the worst that can happen control-wise is signaling a turn with your windshield wipers.

I ended opening the window several times instead of shifting gear.... I moved my right hand without thinking, it found a handle, and muscle memory did the rest.

[Herod]

I ended opening the window several times instead of shifting gear.... I moved my right hand without thinking, it found a handle, and muscle memory did the rest.

I've done that many times, the other way round; UK driver renting on the Continent. I reckoned when I stopped trying to open the door, I'd settled into the "new" position.

[BEagle]

When I taught close formation flying in the VC10, it was common to teach both the captain and co-pilot on the same flight. So a double seat swap for the instructor was quite normal - but there was always a pilot in one seat or other, fully strapped in and briefed.

Taking over a seat from someone who'd been sweating away flying close formation for half an hour or so was never fun!

We also did double seat swaps in the holding pattern whilst training, but always with one pilot strapped in and the autopilot engaged.

But NEVER a seat swap with no-one in a pilot's seat - that's madness!

One Air Eng held a pilot licence and once asked his captain for a landing. "Certainly", said the captain, "but first you must apply for a commission as a pilot, then if you pass the course, complete advanced flying training and get posted to the VC10, THEN you can have a landing!"

[Black Pudding]

Would the insurance be null and voided. Would the Captain not be liable to lose his license and possible prosecution.

[Herod]

As BEagle says. Madness. That is precisely the time an engine explodes/separates, or some such "triviality"..

[misd-agin]

Swapping seats inflight is total madness, I agree. But flying in the L or R seat is not all that different.
Example: why don’t I totally crash a rental car in south africa/the UK/australia? Doing the clutch or steering wheel my other hand does not cause such a short circuit as riding the bike in the YouTube shown above.
Left to right seat is a big deal unless you've done it before. Everything you look for has moved. Everything on the right is now on the left. Left is now right. Your flying and power hands have changed. Your sight picture has changed. Now if you fly one airplane from the right seat and another from the left seat it's not the same as switching from left to right seat in the same airplane.

[Herod]

Apart from all this, as I understand, the guy wasn't a trainer, so had no right to be in the RHS, unless the LHS was occupied by another captain.

[sonicbum]

Pure and simple madness. Seems quite strange though, as far as I know chinese airlines are not exactly the place to act as a cowboy.

[Airbubba]

Flying heavies in the USAF, I was amazed at how difficult is was to to Air Refueling from the right seat versus the standard left seat position when I upgraded to AR Instructor. It took awhile to adjust.

I've heard stories that the pilots on the KC-135 would somehow do an inflight seat swap to get the quals for both pilots in both seats. Apparently they swap without using a third pilot. Is this true?

The tanker pilots seem to guard the yoke on airliner Boeings when they are the pilot monitoring on the takeoff roll. I'm told this comes from some stab malfunction that happened 50 years ago.

Some of the KC-10 drivers have their head buried in the cockpit reading out the ground speed off the screen when you are turning into the gate. Don't they know that they are supposed to be texting their girlfriends at that critical phase of the flight? ;)

[nevillestyke]

If a car had the gas pedal on the left and the clutch on the right, it might be pretty dangerous. But luckily they don't. It's pretty hard to mistake the door handle for the gear shift, so about the worst that can happen control-wise is signaling a turn with your windshield wipers.
Some three wheeler electric milk floats (Wales and Edwards?) have the accelerator on the left and the brake on the right. They're easy to drive if you just use your left foot only for both pedals. No clutch, as the three relays give auto torque changes.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Try driving the car at night with little visual clues.
It's easy enough during the day with something to follow but very easy to make a mistake when you're in the middle of nowhere at night.

Just follow the lines...

[Webby737]

Just follow the lines...
That works till you arrive at a junction or roundabout, if you're not concentrating it's all too easy to end up on the wrong side of the road. This is probably what happened to the poor chap who was killed on a motorcycle by the wife of an American diplomat in the UK a while back.
The worst case scenario would be an emergency of some sort where your muscle memory would kick in and you would probably reach for the wrong control.
It would be of little consequence in a car but has the potential to turn very nasty in an aircraft.

[Chiefttp]

Airbubba,
I highly doubt that 135 crews would do that. Remember there are other crew members onboard who could rat them out.

[Airbubba]

Airbubba,
I highly doubt that 135 crews would do that. Remember there are other crew members onboard who could rat them out.

I've actually seen the two pilot seat swap at altitude in a widebody airliner in years past. When the ETOPS twins started to arrive and replace the steam driven planes with flight engineers it seemed like the wheel was invented differently at each domicile on how to handle the seats on a flight that required the third pilot.

I flew from a junior East Coast base with all of the FO's, including me, type rated. A senior West Coast base flew mostly domestic with a few overwater routes like HNL that could be done with two pilots. The FO's weren't usually type rated since a third pilot was rarely required and a captain could be used under the contract in force when the base opened. The West Coast base was given a Pac Rim route and the relief pilot was a type rated FO deadheaded from my East Coast base. I often bid it since there was a lot of full pay deadhead and some good layovers in the trip.

The West Coast guys wanted to make sure that I was duly impressed with my betters and they were always talking about things like their Rolex collection and their air-cooled Porsches. I'd try to strike up a conversation about zero-turn radius mowers but they wouldn't be interested.

With some crews I didn't ever get into the pilot seats during the crossing, I was like an FE without a panel. With others we would seat swap for breaks. On one leg somehow the captain ended up in the right seat and the FO in the left at top of descent. I was ready to swap with the captain and temporarily sit in the right seat but he decided to have the FO leave the left seat and he stepped over the center console trying not to snag his trousers on the throttles.

Three decades later things are a lot more specific in ops manuals about seat swaps and who can occupy the seats in flight.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Seat swaps are common in corporate aviation ...also look at being a CFI...you go from left to right there, right?

[ATC Watcher]

Seat swaps are common in corporate aviation ...also look at being a CFI...you go from left to right there, right?
It depends, scan the GA airfields : how do you recognize an old FI flying his private GA aircraft ? he flies it from the right seat...

[Check Airman]

Seat swaps are common in corporate aviation ...also look at being a CFI...you go from left to right there, right?

Oh yes you do. And occasionally, depending on your student, you’ll go from right to left. The first few times you do it from the right, though, it’s decidedly odd.