Women pilots...?

[gunray]

A question for all those fighter pilots out there...I am a young woman contemplating a career as a pilot after graduating from university. I'm used to Air Force life as I was brought up in that world, but I would like to hear some of the attitudes towards women fighter pilots from the "horses's mouths" so to speak. Is it harder to get in if you are a female? And how much stick can one expect to receive? I would be interested to hear your views...

[Specaircrew]

As the RAF is an equal opportunities employer you'll be treated no differently to the men, except of course if you're good looking (a rare quality in WAFS) then you'll get a lot more sex than the chaps do. The powers that be would prefer you to be a minger though then there's less chance of you getting pregnant and being grounded after 5 minutes on the Sqn! :-)

[flygunz]

Gunray
I think specaircrew has completely summed up the sexist attitude that pervails in the Armed Forces and it's a good thing that the post came so early, it will certainly spark some comment.
Be under no illusion it will be far tougher for you to succeed whilst you've got to internally fight against some bigotted attitudes at the same time trying to do your own job. It wont be easy.
I am not a 'FJ' but have spent some time teaching men and women a similar trade in rotary, I have to say that my best ever student was a female and her achievement was due to ability, aptitude, intelligence and motivation. Added to that was a huge amount of hard work on her part to be better than anyone else irrespective of gender. In her favour was a system that didn't recognise her as a women but as an aviator, so she was better placed than you will be.
In my opinion there will always be a divisive problem when a lesser number of females have to work alongside more male collegues, particulary in the Armed Forces.
Best of luck, if you do it, go get it!

[Just an other number]

wind up?

[St Johns Wort]

Na they dont frighten me :) besides its nice to have a 'young' woman driving now & again.

Go frit Gunray....nil desperandum and all that;)

[Min Decent Ht]

I'm a bloke and I don't get any, so I suppose Specaircrew was correct in one of his 'points'. Perhaps its because I'm a minger?

Anyway, I've been involved in training FJ mates for a few years now, including about half a dozen females. I think if you have the ability, the willingness to succeed and be able to 'fit in', anyone can make it; regardless of gender. Ability being the most important. If you have been around RAF life for a while you'll have been introduced to some banter. Give as much as you get and fitting-in shouldn't be much of a problem.

Sexual harassment is a different matter, but I aint gonna go there. This would be a tedious wind up if someone wants to get a non-PC reaction. Perhaps someone should start a thread on 'Health and Safety Regulations- Rules to be followed or Just For Guidance?'.:rolleyes:

Yawn.....

[con-pilot]

Drop a line (e-mail) to McD, she is a moderator here on pprune.

She is American Airlines pilot AND a F-16 fighter pilot. A good person and will help you anyway she can.

[Specaircrew]

Min Descent Ht,

A chap can only be a minger when he's sober, after four pints he has drunk himself good looking and after eight is Gods gift to women! Unless of course you're cursed with natural good looks like wot I am :-)

[Wholigan]

Never had the pleasure of flying on a fast jet sqn with female aircrew. However, I have flown with hundreds of air cadets and several dozen UAS studes (during Freshers' week and on sand-bag trips). At their young age the ability range is from "will never be able to fly anything as long as he/she has a hole in his/her ar$e" to "jeeeeeeeeeezuss matey - get your ass down to the recruiting shop as soon as you're old enough 'cos I want you in the RAF". The best half a dozen I've flown with (in my humble opinion) as far as natural ability is concerned have been ladies, but - overall and on average - there has probably been little or nothing to choose between the sexes as far as poling skills are concerned.

Now, I'm an old buggah, but I don't care if you are black, white, green, yellow, blue, male, female, both (or not sure), fat, thin, tall, short, ugly, good-looking, christian, buddhist, muslem, jewish, hindu, vegetarian or a bleedin' horse!! If you're good ---- welcome to my Air Force!!!!

Go for it and love it!! AND BANTER BACK !!!!!

[Audax]

In many years of flying, I have taught a lot of pilots, both military and civilian, of every race, colour, creed and of both genders. I can truthfully say that every single stude has had the same treatment and level of instruction, ie the best that I could give.

I have to admit that at times it can be difficult, mostly if you suspect the stude is not trying as hard as he/she can but in the long term it makes no difference.

Regrets? Maybe with hindsight having put so much effort into training studes (when the RAF did train a lot of overseas pilots) who then turn on your own country in later years.

[kbf1]

Wholi.....you into horses now? bloody hell!

[Talking Radalt]

Wholi.....

Wot if dey is Taliban?

;)

[TqNrT4NgGreenlightCWP]

Like flygunz, I have taught quite a few females in the RW environment. Also like him, my best ever stude was a female - but then so was my worst!

Truly, the dinosaur attitudes are getting fewer and rarer. Anyway, aren't all studes worthless until they produce incontravertible evidence to the contrary?

Go for it - better than looking over your shoulder in 10 or 20 years asking 'what if?'

[BEagle]

My obsevations?

Say to UAS student (bloke) "That was an average trip"- he'll think "Good enough. Now I'm off to the pub, then a curry, then try to be sober enough to survive tomorrow"

Say to UAS student (lady) "That was an average trip" - she'll think "Can do b£oody better than that!" - and will then practise checks, etc with the others of her coven - and do better the next day.

Have taught several ladies on the '10 - the only one who wasn't pretty darn good had been 'taught' beforehand by someone who didn't like female pilots. But then she was fine when given a chance!

If you try to play the role of the oldest swinger in town who still thinks he's 21 and takes it into his single brain-cell to dribble incoherently over every lady in the bar whilst boring them to tears, they'll always think you're a prat. Even if you think that they're 'mingers'..... Eh, SA???

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

SA:rolleyes:

Not very PC but after a 16 hour day, day into night TAC training this was just the sort of humour I needed to wind down with. Add to this the fact I almost woke the rest of the house up giggling I can only ask you entertain us with more of this in other threads.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[gunray]

Good to see so many replies to my question...must be a topic close to men's hearts! And no Just An Other Number, this is not a wind up, I do genuinely want to fly. BEagle your reply sounds just like something my father would say...have to say I agree with the quotes part, women won't settle for "average," or at least I won't. Some good advice in favour of female pilots, thanks for your views! Watch this space...

PS. Specaircrew - may have a few problems then...

[scroggs]

I have trained a good few women on both UAS and Albert. As Wholi knows, my greatest success is a lady who I told would never fly as long as she possessed the proverbial hole in her a*se! She is now a respected pilot in the RAF, and takes great delight in reminding me of my (as she sees it) poor judgement at every opportunity! I continue to claim that it was my way of motivating her to greater efforts, of course.

I've seen good and bad students of both sexes and, notwithstanding BEag's point, I've seen plenty of women who will accept the 'OK' verdict and then proceed to drink the bar dry with the boys - or maybe that was just my influence? Most of those women I know who now fly with the RAF thoroughly enjoy the experience. There are neanderthals who do their best to spoil things, but I would expect any good pilot to be able to deal with idiots who disparage their abilities.

Gunray, I'd say give it a go. And when you've gotten fast jets out of your system, come and talk to us at Virgin!;)

[Specaircrew]

Now now Beagle you haven't seen my twin brother in the Mess bar for ages, let alone being pestered by those naughty WAFs(after all they're not made of wood). Or are you just in a mood 'cos I wrote some 'reportees comments' on that check ride you did on me.............don't worry I always do that, pity there's not more space as you can have lots more fun on ACRs :-)


PS Gunray............Actually Beagle is old enough to be your Grandfather ;)

PPS Always Broken...........Glad you're amused, couldn't resist it , especially as I knew it would excite those people that take life oh so seriously :)

[solotk]

McD flies the F-16? Wow.......

Not cos' she's a woman, but it's a lovely aeroplane......

Any chance of a personalised poster McD :D

[BEagle]

No mood at all, chum. But the droning boredom that your twin brother inflicts on the ladies after his usual half pint is getting a bit passe....

I could mention a honey-trap which a certain Nimrod captain fell for at St Mawgan about a dozen years ago..... The UAS girlies had had enough of your twin brother and one of their number, who, shall we say, was less than choosy decided to teach him a lesson.......

Or the student who plied the 15 year old daughter of a senior officer with drink and then had his pleasure....

Gunray, do it, DO IT, DO IT!!!. There aren't many MCP dinosaurs left, thank heavens and you'll be treated without any prejudice.


PS - I don't mix work with PPRuNe play

[right chopper]

Get in touch and I'll give it to you from the horse's mouth......:)

[BEagle]

By the way, gunners, when I was Sqn Ldr Air in the Islas Malvinas a year or so ago, both rotary wing Flt Cdrs were ladies. Both highly respected in a world not renowned for taking prisoners and both great ladies!

Went for a trip with one in a SeaKing. To me the idea of landing on HMS Bouncy Castle looked completely barking mad - she made it look utterly effortless. Would have flown with the other in the Chinnie, but it was u/s at the time....

Please, please come on in and play. The water is lovely - honest!!

Went flying today with a student captain - air refuelling over France in our VC10 followed by some simulated emergencies. She did very well indeed!

Don't listen to dribbling chauvinistic dinosaurs!

[flygunz]

Ok Spec fair cop, but off the wall, how should I have dealt with my stude who asked me to take control so she could open her flaps?
Over to you.

[northwing]

I am not a professional pilot but a flight test engineer and aerodynamicist working with the military. I think all pilots should be female by law - same brain but only two thirds of the weight. That is a stunning aerodynamic advantage. Some chauvinistic male pilots I know dispute this analysis on the grounds that the female brain only works for two thirds of the time. Some female pilots dispute the same brain bit. From what I've seen from the outside lady pilots are doing well and having a ball - go for it.

[Specaircrew]

Tricky one that Flygunz, I had a similar dilemma when 2 girly F3 jocks (who kept threatening to call themselves 'snatch' formation) complained that they were getting a soft contact on my hose. I suppose I'll just have to accept that with my chiselled good looks I'm going to be sexually harassed now and then ;)

PS I know a girly pilot whose test pilot grandad was actually called 'flaps'...........needless to say it has never come up in crewroom banter!

[scroggs]

Hmmm.... anyone else beginning to suspect BEags' motives? 'The water's lovely'???!? Doesn't square with the banter I'm getting. Gunray, beware this man and any offered postings to the VC10!:D

[BEagle]

I was being metaphorical!

< (.5 age) + 7 in any case, no doubt!

[teeteringhead]

Blimey BEags, that's a formula I haven't seen for many a long day. Must endorse your high opinion of the rotary ladies you mention, who are a credit to their respective forces. But most are.

Gunners, do go for it. Of COURSE there will be banter (as you've probably gathered from this forum), but there always is. You'll get it if you're tall/short/fat/thin/jockinese/Irish/ginger or whatever. Or female. It's just an aircrew thing. But also an aircrew thing is not to mind if you're tall/short etc etc if you can do the job well.

If you can, nobody minds what you are - and that envelope is pushed pretty widely in the rotary world! But the banter will still be there; time to worry is when the banter stops - then you may have a real problem! :) ;) :)

[gunray]

I am glad all your answers follow a similar path, in that a good aviator is one who proves their abilty irrespective of gender and unavoidable banter etc. Lets just hope the 'powers above' at Cranwell also take the same line. I am well used to the world of aircrew banter as I have seen a few pranks played on our family at Bruggen, the best part is striking back! I hate to look back and see my life as a chain of "what if's," so I think I shall give it a whole-hearted go and que sera, sera. So if you see a tall, slim, blonde, fighter pilot hit the headlines for best pilot of the year, then you'll know gunray has made her mark! ;) Cheers for all the advice and encouragement.

I have a few more questions though: Is it worthwhile joining up to a UAS? and how can you find out which uni has a club? The other thing was bursaries/scholarships through uni...what qualifies someone to obtain one of these and what are the conditions?

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Crikey:rolleyes:

Considering the "OBVIOUS" tongue in cheek style of Spec's first entry here I am appalled at the amount of patronising "hey girlies can also be brill" claptrap being written here.

After all when was the last time anyone here felt the need to praise the finely honed flight deck skill of the male captain/co pilot etc or marvel at the ease of a male guided deck landing? The lady in question must be thinking we are all just a bunch of protectionist lounge lizards with all the predatory traits hinted at by Spec.

TTH hits the nail on the head.......It is not important if you are male or female or black or white or even sky blue pink with yellow dots on 'cos if you can do the job you earn respect and if you can't...........well you can always become a Flt Cdr:D

Banter is the thing that keeps us going and Spec's offering was superb. The hint of irony at the ever increasing level of positive discrimination in the services is also plain to see, but before any PC anoraks decide to challenge him on this thorny subject please bear in mind it's not a great secret!

Considering we already have all the crew positions on the Mighty J filled by women any bets on how long before "that" article surfaces in the RAF mag?

Guns it's a cruel environment you are looking to join where the banter can be extremely cutting but after 28 years I would not swap my job for anything.....well anything short of "the big one" on a Saturday night.

Spec'.........keep it up mate :D

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Reichman]

So Speccie, exactly how many gorgeous women were falling over themselves to get to you last Fiday night in Witney? And would you please tell us all why you were too poorly to come out with the rest of us on Saturday? Was the smell of the Ovaltine too overpowering at chez Spec?

[Specaircrew]

Well actually we were in Cartoontown and if you'll recall we had several free rounds off a female admirer. Anyway I couldn't fit in to my pulling pants for saturday night and then there's the 'innie' or 'outie' shirt dilemma!

[Guido]

Gunray if you are serious about joining a UAS look here, http://www.cranwell.raf.mod.uk/eft/uas.htm

[BEagle]

Gunners - regarding a UAS it'll depend hugely upon your chosen University and degree. These days the UAS attempts to 'stream' you for FJ, ME or RW depending upon how well you do. But you're also trying to get a decent degree, of course.

If you're trying to do Aero Eng at Impossible College, London and also have to travel all the way to Wyton to your UAS, you'll find it very, very hard. The other alternative is to wait until after finals to apply to the RAF and let them know that the reason was that you didn't think that you'd be able to devote sufficient time to your degree had you joined as an undergraduate, given the additional pressure of achieving sufficient flying currency to progress at a rate which would mark you as a FJ prospect.

Other flying is available through the RAF Flying Club Association, but it is NOT free. Perhaps you could try for a GAPAN PPL scholarship or Air League award?

Good luck!!

[gunray]

BEagle: Distance is not a problem as I am going to Bristol and I checked the website given above and Bristol has a UAS. I am reading a science degree which like you suggest will be a lot of work as you have to add in field trips and practical studies etc. I didn't realise selection for FJ was or could be decided so soon...a point to consider. Thanks for the advice.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

I wonder if there should be a "Miss" in front of the previous posters handle. If there should any chance of a contact No to take advantage of your services:D

However her response, typical of the comfortable shoe wearing brigade of today, shows her inability to spot genuine banter when it is offered..........or does she really give credit to spec's very funny theory on the looks of todays female airman?....airwoman?.......whatever.

Lighten up folks Gun's is getting loads of good gen here and so far seems to be holding her own on the banter front.

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[BEagle]

Those who've done their fluffy EO training will know the difference between 'banter' and 'harassment'. It's all in the perception of the person to whom the comment is addressed, not the comment itself.

Regrettably much of this is lost on dimwitted dinosaurs!

Enjoy Brizzle, gunners! When you go to the Freshers' Fair (are they still called that) ask at the UAS stall about the potential conflict between sufficient flying currency to progress at a rate which will give you the best chance of FJs and the requirements of your degree course. Ask them whether it'd be better to concentrate on getting a good degree first and then to join the RAF as a Direct Entrant. Whilst you would undoubtedly have a terrific time on the UAS (even Brizzle) you must consider the balance between work, play and your future career!

BTW- do you have any flying experience at the moment?

Edit for clarification: The reason I ask is that if you have any flying scholarship, gliding or microlighting experience, you might want to look at the newly-launched NPPL. But if you haven't any flying experience yet, you would certainly need to maintain good continuity during your first few formative flying sessions.

[Wholigan]

Also Gunners --- e-mail me and let me know when you are starting at Bristol. If there is time, you could pop up to Colerne and chat to the BUAS staff (who are a nice bunch) and perhaps chat to some of the BUAS studes before even going to the Freshers' Fair. No - I don't work for BUAS, but I do fly from Colerne -------- :D

[fobotcso]

Again, it's that time of year when moths flit around a candle...;)

[BEagle]

Which means what, prey?

[BEagle]

As fobotsco has now deleted his unpleasant response, I have also edited this:

You may recall that some of us tried to help a bloke who was given some harsh treatment from the PPRuNe jackals when he was rejected by the RN. Another male PPRuNer from a UAS came here to hold with one of sqns at the Secret Oxonian Airbase after e-mailing me and yet another did his night qualification at our flying club after e-mailing me.

I make no secret about my dislike for predatory lounge lizards making blatantly sexist and abusive comments - and I suspected that it would only be a matter of time before some puerile comments would be directed towards those posting advice to gunray on this thread. So please keep your 'nudge, nudge, wink, wink' comments to yourself - there is a difference between Talk and Banter. (cf Stork and Butter if you don't spot the allegory).

[Ivor Bigwan]

Don't be too hard on poor old Beagle, remember the only place he gets to talk to girls is on the internet!

He doesn't realise how us 'predatory lounge lizards' get preyed on by women when we're out for a quiet drink with our mates then get forced to perform unspeakable sexual acts(sometimes twice!) before being cast aside like an old tissue with no thought for our feelings............or did I dream it?

[Wholigan]

OK fobotcso - deleted! But believe me I do try to be helpful and do NOT have any ulterior motives>

[BEagle]

Quite so, Wholi'! Couldn't agree more with your sentiments. Perhaps it was chucking out time and he'd DNCO'd - or maybe it was just his 'time of the moth'?

Incidentally, fellow PPRuNers, you may perhaps wonder why the likes of Wholi' and myself answer these queries in public, rather than just e-mailing direct. It's because there may be others with similar queries but who are, perhaps, too wary to ask. Hence they can also receive advice.

gunray, at present we have a UAS student doing her PPL at our flying club - she also wants to be a RAF pilot. She's away next week but will be back the week after - if you like I'll ask her to e-mail you with a contact number so that you can discuss the conflicting demands of degree work and flying with her directly.

[fobotcso]

Well, my little banter about the moth seems to have touched some nerves here and for that I'm truly sorry because this thread has been messed up as can only happen in the Mil Forum. So I've deleted my brief second post that caused offence and hope that BEagle and Wholi will do the same with their replies.

It is reassuring that, although I've frequently dropped tidbits of info about my provenance, it remains obscure.

For Wholi, bless you young man. For BEagle, perhaps just a bad day; if you want to believe all that stuff about pre.. Oh shut up fobotcso, you'll start it all over again! Please, let's be friends.

[myrddin]

Reading these seemingly never ending threads I'm sure the poor Gunray will have given up any notion of a military flying career by now. Gunray; it looks to me like most of the respondents to your enquiry are RAF or ex RAF. Ignor the lot of them either join the RN or AAC. RN would be favourite. AAC great fun if you like the outdoor life. Hope this helps

[fobotcso]

Seconded :)

[Specaircrew]

Yes but if you do join the RN you may have to suffer the embarrassment of being flown home from Australia by the RAF when your sleeping quarters spring a leak :)

[BEagle]

fobotsco - perhaps when you've deleted all your offensive comments on this thread I may be inclined to make more substantial edits myself.

Good banter, Speccers! It must be hugely embarrassing to have your bedroom driven into the only rocks for thousands of miles. Much as it must have been for the Navy mate who successfully force-landed a Sea Fury near Yeovilton - and then hit the only tree in an otherwise empty field....

[Wholigan]

fobotcso - I bow to your age as you must be at least 65 to call me "young man" :D :D

However, I will say that I fail to see how offering Gunray the opportunity to talk to people actually experiencing what she is concerned about could be construed as "messing up" this thread. Or - perhaps - you were not referring to my offers when you said that?? ;) :rolleyes:

PS - look back and you will see that I have acceded to your request to delete my thread!

[flygunz]

On the subject of ' a lesser number of women to more male collegues being divisive', I rest my case, seen it all before:(

[myrddin]

Specaircrew Beagle; please remember that those who live in glass houses etc etc. How did the RAF do in Bosnia ???? Gunray it's worthy of note that HMS Nottingham's embarked helicopter was not dampened by the mishap. Vulcans ..... now there must be a bit of dirt there somewhere..... How about the time when....oh I can't be arsed:cool:

[gunray]

This will be my last reply for a while as I am going away for a few weeks....but I would just like to say that fortunately I do recognise the difference b't banter and harassment, and agree that PC statements have gone too far in this day and age (not to mention health and saftey). What happened to being able to live your own life without bureaucracy breathing down your throat. Or people sueing other people because they have been "exposed" to a bit of banter or misfortune. It takes the fun out of life if everyone is constantly covering their backs not sure how thinly the ice is spread. It seems that anyone who experiences a bit of discomfort or has an accident is able to claim thousands. Anyway getting back to the subject, I am have read this thread with great interest and appreciate all views, I would not want to be sheltered from the sexist remarks and am by no means preturbed by them. After all boyz will be boyz, and as long as I can banter back I don't see it as a problem.
Well gotta dash, thanks again for all the comments and I will investigate the UAS when I get to "Birzzle!"
Gunners

[cb9002]

Gunray, about the UAS, workload etc. We're in a similar position because I just graduated from Bristol, in a science (biochemistry) and was in the URNU (same as UAS, but Navy). I'm normally just a lurker on here though. Email me through the board if you think I can help.

At least with the URNU anyway, I would say the biggest problem for many people is the, er... aristocratic culture or class snobbery is as best as I can put it. If you stay in a wardroom, you'll see what I mean.

Oh yeah, and in Bristol Wills Hall has the best food, Goldney is the best self-catering, and The Hawthorns is a whole 50 metres from lectures in the morning!

(Fingers crossed please for my final ATCO interviews at Kemble Street bright and early tomorrow...)