CAE not social distancing

[spektrum]

Many mum and dad flying schools have done the right thing and shut up shop. Why is this multi-national not following suit?
Profits before peoples lives. Nice one.

Screen grab taken at time of posting.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1030x917/oaa_84327ab0c9319c756cec15982cc2c239f186a571.jpg

[Ixixly]

Spektrum, there are many ways this could be done safely. This would be a perfect time to be getting Solo Hours for example. I could point out that quite simply put they aren't going against any of the directives set forth by the Government, social distancing says to keep 1.5m apart as much as possible for example or I could point out that wearing masks, disinfecting aircraft surfaces pre/post flight and liberal washing of hands would help mitigate a lot of risks along with monitoring students closely for fever using contactless thermometers.

But not much of this matters to everyone looking to jump on their high horse and decry all and sundry for not doing what they think is the right thing to do based on their own interpretation. I've seen Facebook groups with people looking to shame anyone who dares go on a walk with a friend or family, people who use public transport, infact, anyone who dares to set a single foot outside of their abode despite this NOT being the idea. There are "restricitions" in place, we are not in some kind of lock down.

So unless you have some very specific information about each and every one of these flights and how they're being performed I'd recommend pulling your head in and reserving your spare time for people actually doing stupid things like holding massive parties etc... or finding something more productive to do.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Bravo Ixixly.

For what it's worth, CAE in Tamworth are using face masks and gloves as well as the other expected precautions.

[Middle.Marker]

If you have anything to do with this organisation, this behaviour won’t surprise you.

[Styx75]

Many mum and dad flying schools have done the right thing and shut up shop

Love how it's always mum and dad shops when the point needs to be run home.

My mum n dad used to skim the s*** out of their business. Just saying...

[Squawk7700]

Where is the evidence that CAE Oxford are doing the wrong thing here?

[AmarokGTI]

I think the point that is being made is that the advice is - don’t go out unless essential. And arguing if flight training is essential.

Not getting involved - just think thats what the aim of the post might be.

[machtuk]

Whilst the Govt have put in place 4 reasons why you are allowed beyond yr property line (drugs, food med and excersuse) it's not illegal to move about freely it's just advise (at this stage), other than in to the area's closed. We 'should' stay home, that's not we must!

[Squawk7700]

Opening my overly heavy hangar doors would be considered exercise. I’m in the clear.

[Squawk7700]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x1334/8436edd1_b22f_4268_9cf2_d39892bfea69_481e28027bfcd80beb5754b c29ea79ae0f695edd.png

Someone forgot to tell the RAAF :-)

[Papa_Golf]

Quarantine sucks...

[Runaway Gun]

Yet we are encouraged to continue to work.

[Capn Bloggs]

ROLR=RAAF On Long Runway?

[covec]

If CAE can do it then could we re-open our Flying School?

Masks, gloves - no probs.

[john_tullamarine]

(a) My understanding is that CAE is taking a very rigorous approach throughout the organisation to the virus personal protection issue. Perhaps the OP ought to check his/her facts prior to launching an attack on any specific organisation ?

(b) Someone forgot to tell the RAAF :-) While noting the smiley, I think that the cockpit environment of the PC-21 is a world apart from that of the typical civil training aircraft so far as intracrew contamination issues might be concerned ...

[Radgirl]

If CAE can do it then could we re-open our Flying School?

No, in the UK the Coronavirus Act makes it illegal.

The military are essential workers. The issue isnt just intracrew transmission. To operate a flying school you need to stop lockdown for maintenance, the fuel pathway, ATC and you have to get everyone mobile. All this negates lockdown and increases transmission. The more lax we are the more people will die, the longer we will be disrupted, and the more businesses will fail

[Transpond]

I feel bad for the students tbh, as if it wasn't hard enough to get a job before, there's virtually 0 chance of them getting one now.

[Ixixly]

No, in the UK the Coronavirus Act makes it illegal.

The military are essential workers. The issue isnt just intracrew transmission. To operate a flying school you need to stop lockdown for maintenance, the fuel pathway, ATC and you have to get everyone mobile. All this negates lockdown and increases transmission. The more lax we are the more people will die, the longer we will be disrupted, and the more businesses will fail

Yes, but also no. There are many reasons we aren't just going completely into some kind of lock down and that as many businesses as possible that can be deemed low risk are being encouraged to keep going. a Flight School is education, education has NOT been told to shut down at all. The Classroom lessons can be done whilst observing social distancing with a little work, Maintenance can still go ahead as they're not often shoulder to shoulder and can keep a distance most of the time but there will need to be an acceptance that jobs will take a little longer to keep things safe. Fuelers don't need to come into contact at all and their adminside can likely be done remotely to keep them going and ATC for GA Towers aren't sitting in there shoulder to shoulder either, they're not closing down Airspace so they are still essential and no doubt adopting procedures.

Please people, don't fall into the panic trap that many are that they think the only way is to shut everything down. There are high risk and low risk activities, we're an industry that deals with Risk Management every single day so put those analytical skills to use before jumping on the "Shut it all down" bandwagon.

[Ixixly]

I feel bad for the students tbh, as if it wasn't hard enough to get a job before, there's virtually 0 chance of them getting one now.

This will only slow them down, the industry will bounce back eventually and the training industry can adapt to current restrictions to keep people moving and progressing as much as possible in the mean time. it'll be tough no doubt but as someone who finished their training a month before the GFC hit I have a fairly good idea of what it's going to be like and feel positive that we'll recover, it'll just take some time.

[student88]

I have also seen L3 aircraft flying over the UK for the last few days.

[zanthrus]

Who cares about the UK? This thread is about CAE in Melbourne and Tamworth in Oztralia.

[student88]

Your response encapsulates what I love about aviation, arms open wide community spirit. Don't go to Oshkosh, you'll probably hate it.

[Squawk7700]

It’s naive to think that you would not catch the virus working in a control tower more than a couple of metres from your co-worker.

It’s all about surfaces, bathrooms, door handles and the like. It may slow it down but it won’t stop it.

[djpil]

It may slow it down but it won’t stop it. That's it exactly, the plan is not to stop it but to slow it down.

This from a DAME a couple of days ago:

"Having said that, I support the current government process and am very resistant to the calls to shut us down further at this time - that time will come. Currently the World-o-Meters has us pegged with 23 serious cases in Australia. Hardly sufficient to overwhelm our health care (I think 2200 ICU beds across the country).

COVID-19 was identified as a pandemic in mid-January by the Australian Government. If the world wanted to "eradicate" COVID-19, that was the time to act. The problem is, if we eradicated it in Australia, we would have to permanently close the borders or instigate a quarantine for ALL entrants to Australia forever! This is because it was rampant elsewhere and we could never know who would or wouldn’t have it.

The alternative, which the Australian Government chose, was to allow it to occur, but to manage the spread. The idea is that at the end of the pandemic, we have an entire country that has been exposed to it and either died or recovered (hopefully with immunity).

COVID-19 transfers very easily between community members and the problem with this is that, while 80% of the population experience mild symptoms, the remaining 20% can get very sick, some needing up to 2 weeks in ICU. If the entire population of Australia (25M) was exposed within a month, say, then we would be looking at managing 5M sick people within that month. The health system can’t manage that!

Everyone has heard of "flattening the curve”. All we are trying to do is, instead of managing 5M in 1 month, we want to manage the same 5M over say, 6 months.
Isolation is for suspected or confirmed cases of COVID-19. This is a 2 week period of not leaving your home until you are either show no signs of symptoms or you have testing come back as negative.

Distancing is designed to slow the spread with people who may have contracted but have no/minor symptoms.
I have posted on private doctors’ forums my opinion of the current situation these simple facts:
- Nearly 100% of the population will be exposed - we can’t help that
- There is no cure
- There is no vaccine and unlikely to be one for 12-18 months
- 80%+ of the population will barely notice contracting the virus
- There is an issue with overwhelming the healthcare system - hence we need to slow the spread to ensure that people will have adequate healthcare available when they need it
- The people who are likely to struggle with it the most are old, immunocompromised or have significant co-morbidities (mainly respiratory)

The issue with a complete lockdown, is all we achieve is postponing an inevitable event.

Let’s say we made everyone sit at home for 2 weeks (except healthcare workers and emergency services). Let’s assume we could get food/water etc to everyone for the two weeks. At the end of the two weeks there would likely be no more cases within Australia. Then we return to full normal functions and one person re-introduces it back - whether it be by travel, or a number of people without symptoms acting as a reservoir. That puts us back at square one to start again. This just doesn’t work!

We need to control the spread of the virus through our population. Unfortunately, we don’t have many ways to do this - its not like we can see who has it and is spreading it. So that leaves us with very blunt levers.

Currently the opinion is that healthy children are very unaffected by the virus. Therefore they have been allowed to continue with their schooling. I can’t work out the reason for this - to reduce them spreading it to parents/grandparents? to keep their parents (especially healthcare workers) working? To promote some spread within the population? I always say that if there is a number of plausible explanations, it is probably a combination of them all, rather than one specific reason.

So now the government is trying to slow this spread, but keep the spread going.

If we close down to fast, then we don’t have enough spread, numbers dwindle, peoples patience fatigues meaning that when we actually need to shut everything down - people resist and we return to a steep curve. Further, our health care system will be working significantly below capacity, prolonging the time to 100% infection in the community.

If we close down too slow, we are back to the steep curve with an overwhelmed health care system.

So the blunt levers that the government has is restriction of movement for well people - this can be tighter/looser depending on our current infection numbers. I am predicting that when the numbers get high, we will close down schools, hair dressers, take-aways etc and when the numbers dwindle these will be re-opened, and I think we will see this open/close/open/close process as we cycle through the process.

So back to your question, we should be isolating those with genuine risk, and distancing those who haven’t had it yet.

As for complete isolation for remote areas, I don’t see the point (remember, I don’t have all the information that the government has), because, they will need to be exposed at some point (unless they want to be locked down for 18 months while a vaccine is developed and introduced.

The same as when you get in a car/plane/motorcycle, you take safety precautions (seatbelts, transponders, helmets, follow the rules), we need to be doing this now.

Does it guarantee your safety, nope, all life ends. Cars/motorbikes have accidents, planes fall out of the sky, but it doesn’t stop you living.

My biggest critique of the current government is the lack of information they have provided to support their plan and the massive amount of fear-mongering going on within the community, both medical and non-medical."

[Lead Balloon]

It’s a simple fact that it appears governments don’t want to state simply:

Most if not all of us are going to be infected, eventually.

The plan is to try to ensure the infection rate does not overwhelm our ICU capacity, by slowing the spread.

[Sunfish]

We are all thus part of a great experiment whether we like it or not. What concerns me is the number of idiots who think this is a fake, manufactured, plot.

[Sabena320]

Despite what my personal opinion is on this whole COVID-19 situation and how this is handled worldwide, the fact is that as a responsible flight school you should not continue your operations. CAE Phoenix only started to take some cleaning measures a few days ago and they still allow training flights with both student and FI's sitting in a confined space together. Instead of closing down their ops temporarily they are letting the choice to fly or not to fly up to both students and instructors. They are trying to let students return home (at own expense of course) which they in fact prefer as they are dealing with severe training capacity constraints in PHX and this would give them a temporarily relief. The question is not if remaining open is acceptable or safe to do so, because that doesn't even matter nowadays. In these times it would be irresponsible as a company to keep on doing as if nothing is happening. The public opinion is very strong and they will decide what is acceptable or not. At the moment they say they are considered an 'essential' company or service, but is it? Nobody is waiting for these pilots to finish their training because there are no planes to fly with now, so of course this is not essential in these times
In Europe CAE did already close training facilities etc, so no point in rushing the flight training.

[Okihara]

We are all thus part of a great experiment whether we like it or not. What concerns me is the number of idiots who think this is a fake, manufactured, plot.

Brasil's Bolsonaro is a prime example of a populist prick whose ignorance/stupidity/selfishness is about to kill millions of his own as he continues to minimise health risks and to ignore science.

[Sunfish]

LB, PM..........

[Lead Balloon]

We are all thus part of a great experiment whether we like it or not. What concerns me is the number of idiots who think this is a fake, manufactured, plot.
I don’t think the Australian authorities are doing what they are doing, just for fun.

We were already part of a ‘great experiment’ called ‘natural selection’. Humans have always been merely life support systems for bugs. Sometimes the bugs get too strong and kill their host. Those bugs don’t survive. Sometimes the host kills the bugs. Those hosts don’t survive. It’s a symbiosis.

(PS: Response to PM sent.)

[junior.VH-LFA]

Someone forgot to tell the RAAF :-)

Except the RAAF absolutely has a national security imperative to continue training operations. The demand for pilots within Air Force isn't going anywhere; one could argue in this interesting geopolitical times, it may actually be increasing; as corny as it sounds, you can't hit pause on national security, it is very much an essential service.

Also worth noting that they're sitting almost 1.5 meters away from each other, wearing gloves and breathing out of a mask with OBOGS. It's not a 172.

You probably posted this ironically and I took the bait. That's on me :p

[aroa]

One of the great things about adversity.. good humour rises to the surface... Love it Laughs are good for you.
Rolls of toilet paper are traded increasing in value as Buttcoin
The bog roll hoarders and fighters have proved the country has more ar$eholes that we thought.

[Pinky the pilot]

Just had a brief look at FR24 showing my area (Riverland South Australia) and there is one FTA DA40 tracking back towards YPFL after having done a few circuits at YWKI.

Situation normal for here.

[chance]

Who cares about the UK? This thread is about CAE in Melbourne and Tamworth in Oztralia.
FTA show up on Flight Radar with about 5 DA40 operating out of Wellcamp for the Qantas Academy.
Not sure about Archerfield sausage factories

[RENURPP]

Many mum and dad flying schools have done the right thing and shut up shop. Why is this multi-national not following suit?
Profits before peoples lives. Nice one.

Screen grab taken at time of posting.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1030x917/oaa_84327ab0c9319c756cec15982cc2c239f186a571.jpg
Whats the difference between this flying traning organisations and airlines in Australia?
Its not 1.5 meters between seats?

https://www.flightradar24.com/-29.32,137.4/5

[ziggerz]

Yep. Whats the point. Fta at parafield have been flying like mad. Must be trying to get as much in before any more restrictions? What is the point of the restrictions if so many dont even bother. We may as well encourage community transmission to build immunity.

[thisishardtochoose]

Whats the difference between this flying traning organisations and airlines in Australia?
Its not 1.5 meters between seats?

https://www.flightradar24.com/-29.32,137.4/5

Flight Training Organisations are still making money whereas the Airlines are not?

[Squawk7700]

Except the RAAF absolutely has a national security imperative to continue training operations. The demand for pilots within Air Force isn't going anywhere; one could argue in this interesting geopolitical times, it may actually be increasing; as corny as it sounds, you can't hit pause on national security, it is very much an essential service.

Also worth noting that they're sitting almost 1.5 meters away from each other, wearing gloves and breathing out of a mask with OBOGS. It's not a 172.

You probably posted this ironically and I took the bait. That's on me :p

Hence the smiley face :-)

Police are in the same boat. Classrooms of 25 (sometimes 50), graduating every couple of weeks or so, 20-25 at a time.

[RENURPP]

Flight Training Organisations are still making money whereas the Airlines are not?
is it about $$$ or preventing transmission?

as some one above said we aren’t being kept informed. The assumption appears to be “we can’t handle the truth” and they’re probably correct.

the intention appears to be to flatten the curve to ensure the medical system isn’t overwhelmed, with the intention that over time we will all be subject to the virus. Basically controlling the infection rate rather than preventing any transmissions
that’s reasonable.

[Radgirl]

Can anyone give any reference stating the Australian Government's plan is herd immunity? djpil's post is interesting for missing out one word - DEATH. The risk of an individual dying is the same if you do nothing or if you use lockdown to reduce the surge. ie you are not preventing a single death with herd immunity unless you are overwhelming the health services

The death rate is very difficult to estimate due to poor data on the true infection incidence. Original Chinese data was 2% but there is a suspicion they have under reported. In Italy and Spain it is in high single figures of infected cases. Also herd immunity may not get more than 40% of the population infected leading to a possible second wave in a year's time.......Are you really saying we will condemn hundreds of thousands of Australians to death? No other country I know of has gone down this route. Australia has braver politicians than NZ :mad:

[Homesick-Angel]

I’ve been reading more medical articles than I should on this - but I do have some time on my hands...

The ‘normal’ flu has about a 0.1 % mortality rate - Covid has been harder to judge (lots of people not tested or such minor symptoms they didn’t know they had it) , but at best 1% and at worst 3-4% mortality - Per year this means about 3-4 hundred thousand deaths for a normal flu, and about 30+ million for Covid .

That and the fact it will come in various waves means the health system wouldn’t handle it, and doctors are left deciding who to let live and die due to shortages of ventilators.

I’d say flight training for GA/airline pilots would struggle to prove itself as ‘essential’ at the moment and it is a very good environment for virus transmission .

[thisishardtochoose]

is it about $$$ or preventing transmission?



The problem is unlike the CAA of NZ; CASA has made no comments regarding if Flight training and Private Flights should or should not be operating. People who think Flight training or alike are essential services are dreaming, but without clear and concise statements from CASA or the Aus Government they'll keep operating.

[Lead Balloon]

I thought the PM said that anyone with a job is an essential service. Did I mis-hear that?

[Sunfish]

Spare a thought for RAAF ground crew. They can’t do distancing either.

As for death rates - the definitive figures wont be known for years. Hopefully not worse than seasonal flu. I think I understand that the figure will come from serology - antibody studies from large samples.

[Homesick-Angel]

Spare a thought for RAAF ground crew. They can’t do distancing either.

As for death rates - the definitive figures wont be known for years. Hopefully not worse than seasonal flu. I think I understand that the figure will come from serology - antibody studies from large samples.

- The death rate is (currently) far worse than the flu. 0.1% vs 3% - and 800000+ is a good enough sample size - saying that too many wouldn’t have been tested and many would be recovered not knowing they had it.

- it’s much worse if you’re old (over 12 times more likely to die than normal flu of over 85)

its R0 number is higher (people infected per person)

but mostly we don’t have a vaccine nor do we understand how it will behave if it inevitably mutates (all viruses mutate - sometimes it’s a good thing , sometimes not) either way it makes it harder to creates vaccine.

I think lining up and doing what we’re told (cooperating) isn’t always a bad thing - and I still say a cockpit environment is ripe for the spread..

[rcoight]

At least a dozen FTA aircraft out flying right now.
Maybe they're all building solo hours?

[djpil]

... djpil's post is interesting for missing out one word - DEATH. The risk of an individual dying is the same if you do nothing or if you use lockdown to reduce the surge. ie you are not preventing a single death with herd immunity unless you are overwhelming the health services ...
From my friend, Dr Brent Blue in the USA recently:

"People are going to die regardless of the current intervention

Flattening the curve will only save some lives.

Let me explain those two statements. Anytime a virus is new to the world’s population, there is no immunity. When a respiratory virus spreads through the population, people with underlying medical issues (particularly in the elderly, smokers, COPD, diabetes, obesity, cardiac disease, & kidney disease) are going to get sick and many of them will die. This will happen now or will happen over the next months or years. It is a terrible thing to say but that is what is going to happen. We can slow it down, but it is still going to happen.

By flattening the curve, it will prevent overloading of medical resources which saves lives mostly by saving non Covid patients who need intensive care resources and Covid patients by preventing medical personnel from having to decide which of two SURVIVABLE patients will the get the resources. Flattening the curve may DELAY people getting sick allowing for treatments to be developed which may help but treatments are months down line at best. (Treatments are more likely to be developed before a vaccine.)

This is going to be a long haul for all of us. Mental and physical health are going to be key given the length of time social distancing may be in place. At least in Jackson, we have the ability to get outside and exercise. Call or Skype/Zoom with friends and family. We are all in this and it will probably be harder than we all think.

Emerg+A+Care Covid Testing Numbers as of 3/31
88 Patients Tested
8 Positive
15 Pending from today’s testing
If you want to be tested, the easiest way is to call ahead (307-733-8002). They will send you a registration form by Email. Fill it out and return, then drive up. A medical assistant will come out to your car to be swabbed."

[Stretch06]

I thought the PM said that anyone with a job is an essential service. Did I mis-hear that?

You are correct LB. Any one that still has a job is an essential worker. The problem is the media beat up of essential v non-essential. They did the same thing with the closures of schools and caused nothing but confusion for all. The best thing to do is refer directly to the government websites that have the restrictions clearly stated. Flight training organisations are an education that cant be conducted remotely, hence can still operate.

[kaz3g]

Well you can drive somewhere to exercise so I was thinking I could fly to Wahring with the dog and we could the walk around the paddock there...ok?

[Egipps]

Well you can drive somewhere to exercise so I was thinking I could fly to Wahring with the dog and we could the walk around the paddock there...ok?
Umm you know more than me. Does your interpretation of the new rules allow that?

https://www.dhhs.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/202003/Stay%20at%20Home%20Directions%20.pdf

[Sunfish]

If it’s a working dog, that should be OK. :)

[machtuk]

Yep you can leave yr property to excersise, doesn't say you can't drive to that place for same. You can also go drive to meet a friend etc ( one only) for a coffee/drink where coffee etc is available! The airspace is not closed and the rules/laws don't explicitly say you can't go flying!

[josephfeatherweight]

My understanding is that you can fly with your dog if you are in the process of collecting a jigsaw puzzle.
Source - Scotty from Marketing

[Lead Balloon]

This is why problems get out of hand: Confused messages that have been misheard.

The exception is that you can fly with your dog if you are in the process of collecting a chainsaw nozzle.

Get with the program, joseph!