Alan vs VA

[wheels_down]

Qantas CEO Alan Joyce has issued a “call to action” to employees to lobby their local member of parliament to make sure smaller rival Virgin Australia gets no extra assistance to survive the current coronavirus crisis.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-boss-enlists-staff-to-fight-extra-support-for-virgin/news-story/df6c6d3f91122dcf9ad7a9826975fedd

What’s the issue here? Virgin gets a government loan. They pay it back within the specified timeframe. Qantas does not because it might still have a Billion bucks left over at the end. But it does not owe the government anything.

Its not free money, just more debt.

Alan loves competition apparently. Lives and breathes it. Well that’s what he told the ACCC.

[Kiwiconehead]

The man is a Northern Territory tourist campaign.

[Sunfish]

What a hypocritical whyte!

[MELKBQF]

What a horrible man. When we had a car manufacturing industry in this country, I never once saw the CEO Ford complaining that Toyota was given government assistance. The industry as a whole worked together.

[Josh Cox]

If the Australian Government purchased a share in VA (a new share allotment), that would knock the wind out of someones sails........(just speculating)...

[777Nine]

Wait, this is the guy that once went to the government asking for a secured loan? Pot, meet kettle.

[michigan j]

Wait, this is the guy that once went to the government asking for a secured loan? Pot, meet kettle.
But they were only asking for a piffling $3 billion...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26445272

[markontop]

Before asking the Australian Government for a cash splash why not first ask the owners? Governments or controllers of Abu Dhabi, Singapore and China.

[Stationair8]

The other wood duck that needs a bit of a working over by VA staff is Karl Stefanovic on the Today show.
Seems to be bagging VA at every opportunity.

[markontop]

Well he would wouldn’t he. Got to keep that QANTAS club membership alive.

[Dawn Patrol]

Most of the employees would have mates in all companies across the industry. Doubt many would lobby to harm their buddies. Would hope so anyway...

[dontgive2FACs]

Certainly mean no ill for VA guys but I believe the premise of investing in the industry (ie both carriers) is completely fair.

Disregard the fact this is aviation for a moment. In these times, I wouldn’t support use of commonwealth funds to prop-up any business that had been poorly run.

[Stretch06]

I can't see that request getting much traction from the majority of QAN employees. I think employees of all airlines here have more respect for their brothers and sisters at other airlines when times are tough than to actively seek their demise.

I agree. Doesn't matter who you are employed by at the moment, everyone is hurting. Mates across all major and minor carriers and in GA, all need to look after each other.

[Paragraph377]

Joyce is a psychopath and a self obsessed spineless toad. Psychopaths are found in greater proportions among CEOs. Between 3% and 21% of CEOs are probably psychopaths, according to a study by Bond University psychologist Nathan Brooks. The background rate of psychopathy in the normal population is about 1%. They are also gutless. Interestingly, the following CEO’s have recently stood down - IBM, Hulu, Disney, Uber, Microsoft, Nestle, T-mobile, Tinder, Juul, Harley, Nissan, MasterCard, Volkswagen, Victoria Secret, MGM, EBay Saleforce, LinkedIn and so it goes. All since December when COVID-19 started to ramp up. Why? They are taking the money and running. They can see what is coming and know that a financial ****storm of biblical proportions has landed on our doorstep.

[George Glass]

How soon people forget.
Virgin Blue buried Ansett.
Branson held a hanger party when it went bust.
AJ , whom I dislike , is simply doing what he’s paid for i.e. being the chief spruiker for his company.
He is pointing out the obvious, the same question that arose with Ansett , subsidise both or none at all.
Maybe a two airline policy , one government owned and one private ? Oh, wait a minute..........

[cattletruck]

Dear Alan,

Surprise! It's not all about you.

Ct.

[TBM-Legend]

George Glass for PM.....

Totally correct. VA hasn't made a cracker for 7 years, is owned by foreigners save a few mums and dads here. Living on loans and bleats. Why shouldn't Joyce rail against government funding if its only for them? What about the REX bleat from its foreign owner from Singapore? More threats...

[dragon man]

If Goyder had any spine he would tell the prick to issue a public apology or he would be sacked. Disgraceful behaviour, it doesn’t matter who owns the airline they are our fellow Australians and part of the larger aviation family.

[unobtanium]

It'll be a fair go if Chairman's Lounge is made illegal.

[blubak]

Is anyone surprised? That's how the little one operates. How does he treat his own employees let alone the opposition?
His employees should be lobbying their local mp to allow them to use their leave & entitlements as they wish not how qantas wishes.
The world according to him,yet again.

[John Citizen]

Is Richard Branson any better?

September 2001 (https://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/09/09/extracts-from-the-ansett-files-before-the-towers-fell/)

With Virgin Blue staff in tears in the background fearing Branson had taken Ansett's money, Branson was apparently about to confirm the bad news in a staged media event at the Virgin Blue terminal in Melbourne on September 4 . "Oh f... it, I'm only joking," he said suddenly as the cameras whirred, and tore a pretend $250 million Ansett cheque into pieces in a moment that dominated that night's Australian TV news. Eight days later, Ansett went into voluntary liquidation and the Branson empire banked the dividend.

[markontop]

Further he went on to say “this Virgin bride is not for sale” gush gush mumble mumble.
I guess now she can’t be given away?
Karma?

[VH-ABC]

And meanwhile us workers just want to work.

[wondrousbitofrough]

You know what? I've sat here for the last few days while you lot ignore the fact its hardly a level playing field to start with. Qantas has, and always will be, subsidised by the Australian government, despite the thin veil of being a private company. You look at the contracts they get, whether that be defence or civil and its clear that after Joe Public the Government are their second biggest customer. If AJ wants to whinge about Virgin asking for a bailout, maybe he should stop the boys club that has protected his pay check for so long.

[George Glass]

Um , wonderous , sit there grinding your teeth all you like but QF hasn’t had a monopoly on Government contracts for a long time. But a sense of grievance is always more powerful than fact isn’t it ?
The question that will have to be resolved at the end of this was whether or not deregulation of aviation was worth it.
The old Australian Airlines , Ansett duopoly was cosy , certainly , but in a nation of 25 million the size of Australia how many airlines do you need ?
Just as the US was contemplating re-regulation Australian crossed the Rubicon and plunged head long into an open market.
The Government , of both persuasions ,has been trying to convince itself that it was a good idea ever since. Jetstar , Tiger , $50 airfares Sydney - Melbourne .... brilliant!
But is it resilient?
Is it just robber baron capitalism dressed up as competition?
Is Globalization really the panacea for low grow ?
Or is it all going belly up under real stress ?
Like deconstructed airspace.
Or emasculated regulators.
Big fat chickens are coming home to roost.

[neville_nobody]

Just as the US was contemplating re-regulation Australian crossed the Rubicon and plunged head long into an open market.

Not in the true sense of a open market. One of the big issues in Australia has always been access to airports. Compass had problems with it, so did Virgin in the beginning. Add to that there are no secondary airports like in Europe or the USA. Sure anyone could come and fly here but you couldn't park an aeroplane anywhere. If you had 2 airports in every city in Australia aviation would be a very different business.

[Giant Bird]

George it is BS that Virgin Blue buried Ansett. I was working in the corporate travel industry at the time and it was Qantas that buried Ansett. When they saw that Ansett was so weak they went for the jugular. They offered hard to refuse deals to every Ansett corporate customer they could. They stole every Ansett corporate customer they could irrespective of the profitability. Probably broke a few competition laws but never got caught. The day Ansett went belly up all the deals not signed went off the table in minutes. We had clients who tried to grab the Qantas deals the minute Ansett announced they were closing but Qantas refused. Qantas went after Virgin Blue by starting up JetStar to take away the LCC segment of the market that Virgin was in. Previously Qantas had been prepared to make route losses to drive Compass and Impulse to the wall. The demise of Ansett meant that the technique they had successfully used against Compass and Impulse was not working so they started an airline in the same segment as Virgin. Chris Corrigan who had bought into Virgin and outmaneuvered Branson then took Virgin upmarket in an attempt to give Qantas some of their own medicine. It looked like it was going to succeed at first but ultimately has not gained enough traction.

[Sunfish]

You want a level playing field? Destroy Qantas and allow any airline from anywhere in the world to fly domestically or internationally into/out of Australia. From Aeroflot to United.

Qantas has done SFA for the australian people. They are an expensive leach. They used to provide an Australian engineering capability that gave us some independence of action. All that is gone. We might just as well have China Southern for all the good it does Australia. 20000 staff? We lost that much in Baristas today.

Just look at the fares QF charged out of the USA last week. Price gouging. F#%} them.

[George Glass]

Giant Bird , if you were corporate travel then you missed the point entirely. The government of the day never had the slightest intention of saving Ansett. It was determined to bust the duopoly , weaken the unions and bring down the cost of aviation for the average punter. Pure and simple. Virgin was the vehicle to make that happen. Three was a crowd. The weakest was allowed to fail. As for Corrigans “out manoeuvring” Branson , well that’s worked out well hasn’t it ? It was always a grand folly. Now its failed. Two premium airlines in a population of 25 million was a fantasy. The whole industry has been set up to fail by the decisions of successive governments over 20 years, no make that 30 , starting with Pilots Dispute.
Big fat chickens coming home to roost.

[George Glass]

Just saw your post Sunfish.
You are delusional.
The countries that will come out the best of this are , as always , the Germans , the Japanese and the Scandinavians. Because they have a clear , focused idea of what their national interest is. China Southern ? Emirates etc. What in the Dieties name are we doing letting them have unrestricted access to our market ? The shakeout of this across the world will be a comprehensive reassessment of how to secure the Nations interests.
Oh, and hope you travel insurance on your Business class jolly to Europe.
Good grief.

[Green.Dot]

You want a level playing field? Destroy Qantas and allow any airline from anywhere in the world to fly domestically or internationally into/out of Australia. From Aeroflot to United.

Qantas has done SFA for the australian people. They are an expensive leach. They used to provide an Australian engineering capability that gave us some independence of action. All that is gone. We might just as well have China Southern for all the good it does Australia. 20000 staff? We lost that much in Baristas today.

Just look at the fares QF charged out of the USA last week. Price gouging. F#%} them.

Listen to you wise fish of all knowledge. Every single Qantas pilot wants every other airline pilot in the industry to keep their job. We don’t like what QF management do with a lot of things but don’t just make it seem like a trivial fact that 20000 people are being stood down. Ill say good luck to everyone, except you mate.

[Ken Borough]

Those in Qantas who wanted the demise of Ansett were the imports belonging to the Blue Team. I’ll never forget how some of them behaved when AN collapsed.

[Rashid Bacon]

Here’s the egg flip - if VA goes under, Jetstar won’t have a “raisin d’être” and could well be consigned to the scrap heap.

[Lookleft]

Jetstar won’t have a “raisin d’être” and could well be consigned to the scrap heap.

Ever since Borghetti took Virgin to full service Jetstar's original raison d'être (raisin d'etre is a French dessert I think)was completed. Their raison d'être now is to maintain QF's 60% market share so I don't think its going to the scrap heap anytime soon.

[Bula]

Incorrect. Different market, different price point.

[blubak]

You want a level playing field? Destroy Qantas and allow any airline from anywhere in the world to fly domestically or internationally into/out of Australia. From Aeroflot to United.

Qantas has done SFA for the australian people. They are an expensive leach. They used to provide an Australian engineering capability that gave us some independence of action. All that is gone. We might just as well have China Southern for all the good it does Australia. 20000 staff? We lost that much in Baristas today.

Just look at the fares QF charged out of the USA last week. Price gouging. F#%} them.
Lots of very true facts in there sunfish,people need to see what has been removed & destroyed from all that used to be part of the airline.
What we have now are many suits telling the media exactly what they want to hear along with casuals,part timers,contractors & a diminishing full time workforce trying to make the jigsaw work every day.

[tail wheel]

For a preview on the cost of air travel post a Virgin/Tiger failure read this thread: https://www.pprune.org/australia-new-zealand-pacific/630818-qantas-1800-perth-one-way-beat-border-close.html

Flying SYD/PER may be cheaper via LAX/LHR/SIN?

The Government are in no doubt what a QF monopoly would do to domestic air travel in Australia.

[markontop]

With the muddled foreign airline ownership of VA, to thwart and stifle QF’s intrinsic monopolistic behaviour just let foreign airlines fly domestic. Even AIR NZ.
That should wind up the little Irishman. He won’t like dat. To be sure. Cue the “I still call Australia home” choir.

[Chad Gates]

I know everyone is stressed, but get a grip people. Listen to yourselves.

[Led Zeppelin]

I thought Joyce's comments were directed at even treatment by the government for all airlines, after a suggestion that VAH might be bailed out preferentially and re-capitalised.

Apart from the principal that governments should not be in the business of capitalising private airline operators, the reality is not good for VAH because of its pre existing perilous finance metrics.

QAN has the internal and external commercial financial resources to sustain a significant non flying period, but make no mistake, pilots will eventually be made redundant as it will take years to recover back to a pre COVID position.

It's impossible to know how VAH will emerge from this. Things can change daily.

[cloudsurfng]

will they be made redundant, or just not recalled from stand down....

[dragon man]

I thought Joyce's comments were directed at even treatment by the government for all airlines, after a suggestion that VAH might be bailed out preferentially and re-capitalised.

Apart from the principal that governments should not be in the business of capitalising private airline operators, the reality is not good for VAH because of its pre existing perilous finance metrics.

QAN has the internal and external commercial financial resources to sustain a significant non flying period, but make no mistake, pilots will eventually be made redundant as it will take years to recover back to a pre COVID position.

It's impossible to know how VAH will emerge from this. Things can change daily.

IMO pilots will be made redundant and we won’t get what is in the contract.

[marchino61]

The ACCC is on Joyce's case:
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/mar/24/rod-sims-accc-virgin-australia-stoush-qantas-coronavirus

[longjohn]

There is a big difference between urging strong competitors like Banks and supermarkets to co-operate and propping up businesses which were in a perilous state BEFORE Coronavirus. COVID19 should not be an excuse to save failed businesses any more than it should be an excuse for an unregulated monopoly.

The shareholders of VA have allowed their business to be mismanaged to the point where it is today. I have no sympathy for them.

I have enormous sympathy for the 10,000 staff who will suffer as a result of their lack of leadership. This is where the anger should be directed.

As a taxpayer, I would be appalled to see Branson, who already profiteered enormously from VirginBlue (to the detriment of yours and my superannuation), be supported by the Australian Government. Same goes for the rest of the shareholders.

The Government need a solution which minimises job losses, preserves entitlements and avoids propping up failed investments by foreign billionaires and airlines.

Time for leadership

[Paragraph377]

There is a big difference between urging strong competitors like Banks and supermarkets to co-operate and propping up businesses which were in a perilous state BEFORE Coronavirus. COVID19 should not be an excuse to save failed businesses any more than it should be an excuse for an unregulated monopoly.

The shareholders of VA have allowed their business to be mismanaged to the point where it is today. I have no sympathy for them.

I have enormous sympathy for the 10,000 staff who will suffer as a result of their lack of leadership. This is where the anger should be directed.

As a taxpayer, I would be appalled to see Branson, who already profiteered enormously from VirginBlue (to the detriment of yours and my superannuation), be supported by the Australian Government. Same goes for the rest of the shareholders.

The Government need a solution which minimises job losses, preserves entitlements and avoids propping up failed investments by foreign billionaires and airlines.

Time for leadership

Perfectly articlated.

[Icarus2001]

Yes, we know how tough they can be.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/780x1172/toothless_accfff_245722_d891bf0cb11377c278f8e2946ce98a189082 1c28.jpg

[Overspeed1]

My guess is the government will punch through a whole bunch of revised bankruptcy legislation to make it easier to Phoenix large companies if its in the national interest (probably similar to chapter 11 in the states). Ie allowing them to tear up all existing contracts, EBAs, leases etc provided the administrator can demonstrate that the resurrected company can be profitable. Means the government won’t have to nationalise company’s or “pick winners” and still gets to save some jobs.

Unfortunately that still probably means widespread job losses and by by to the wide body fleet, ATRs, possibly tiger as well.... but it’d be better than than the whole show falling over

[longjohn]

Over speed - agree.

I also wouldn’t be surprised to see increased regulation, up to the old 2 airline agreement to be introduced for a period post COVID to allow carriers to strengthen balance sheets and avoid predatory start-ups from killing off those who stumble out of this wounded but operating.

[Icarus2001]

...then comes the massive increase in taxes and a 15% GST to pay for the bailouts...

[TimmyTee]

Perfectly articlated.

Perfectly misspelt.

[TimmyTee]

There is a big difference between urging strong competitors like Banks and supermarkets to co-operate and propping up businesses which were in a perilous state BEFORE Coronavirus. COVID19 should not be an excuse to save failed businesses any more than it should be an excuse for an unregulated monopoly.

The shareholders of VA have allowed their business to be mismanaged to the point where it is today. I have no sympathy for them.

I have enormous sympathy for the 10,000 staff who will suffer as a result of their lack of leadership. This is where the anger should be directed.

As a taxpayer, I would be appalled to see Branson, who already profiteered enormously from VirginBlue (to the detriment of yours and my superannuation), be supported by the Australian Government. Same goes for the rest of the shareholders.

The Government need a solution which minimises job losses, preserves entitlements and avoids propping up failed investments by foreign billionaires and airlines.

Time for leadership

“$3 Billion please”. Only 5 years ago. Extremely short memories by some QF drivers here.

[SandyPalms]

And QF didn't get it. The same result I suspect VA will achieve.

[Paragraph377]

Perfectly misspelt.
Always the spelling Nazi’s when they have nothing better to do. Muppet

[Sunfish]

Alan, like a good CEO, is way ahead of you. He is already planning the post pandemic Qantas. Like any good operator, that means destroying competitors and building barriers to entry against new players.

Unfortunately for pilots, engineers and cabin crew, that means that screwing you, as well as the Australian public and Australian tourist industry is part of his plan.

My own post pandemic plan would be to sell seats at cost in order to boot strap the domestic and international tourist industry in return for limiting competition. However that won’t happen. Qantas, the Sydney leach, will suck the life out of Australian air travel yet again.

Question: What anal lubricant to they supply in the Chairman’s lounge?

[Capn Bloggs]

Took me a few seconds Iccy but that was good! I wonder if it hurt puss?

[C441]

"Extremely short memories by some QF drivers here." (Sorry. The quote function doesn't seem to be working properly on my Mac.)

I wouldn't worry too much about the few Timmy - I'm sure you aren't.

​​​​​​​Most of us have sisters, brothers, fathers, mothers, cousins, mates and even just casual acquaintances at Virgin. We don't want to see them out of a job anymore than we too want to be unemployed.

[George Glass]

Yikes , Sunfish. Your loathing of QF is a little unhinged.
Whats the problem ?
Cant get an invite to the Chairmans Lounge ?

[777Nine]

“$3 Billion please”. Only 5 years ago. Extremely short memories by some QF drivers here.

Exactly. Talks about mismanagement, yet who were they competing against back then? A Virgin Blue (or Australia if it was called that at the time) that was barely making any money. If you can't make money from dominating the market (imagine if QF had 3-4 more domestic competitors) then you can't go and bang on about the mismanagement of another company and they're asking for a bailout, especially after you went and asked the government for $3billion dollars. Hypocritical really.

[Squawk7700]

I heard all Tiger pilots have been stood down allegedly.

[NWS Inop]

I hear VANZ pilots could be in the same boat...

[Dookie on Drums]

I hear VANZ pilots could be in the same boat...

That's what I heard also

[Chris2303]

Yikes , Sunfish. Your loathing of QF is a little unhinged.
Whats the problem ?
Cant get an invite to the Chairmans Lounge ?

Perhaps he's an alter ego of Rated De??

[The Bullwinkle]

Rod Sims weighs in on Virgin Australia stoush with Qantas, calling for 'cooperative spirit'

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/mar/24/rod-sims-accc-virgin-australia-stoush-qantas-coronavirus

[Stretch06]

That's what I heard also

both are true. another devastating day for many mates and colleagues in aviation

[wheels_down]

He will be squirming in his seat now. Virgin has asked more a loan of Canberra and has entered a trading halt.

Now is his time to shine. What length will this fella go to now to have this blocked and Virgin crumble. The bloke appears to have no limits.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Answer already out there - insisting on a $4.2b bailout of his own so as not to "distort the market" - per Fairfax press.

[Chad Gates]

He has asked for 4.2 billion using the same formula as Virgin. If Va gets 1.4, I can’t see QF not getting the equivalent.

[Des Dimona]

Might be different if Virgin had asked for the loan purely because of COVID and was otherwise in good financial health, but the reality is that there are significant structural problems that go way beyond corona virus alone.

[wheels_down]

Qantas should not be including Jetstar. Qantas mainline vs Virgin Mainline would be a fair comparison, no more than a $2b payout.

Might be different if Virgin had asked for the loan purely because of COVID and was otherwise in good financial health, but the reality is that there are significant structural problems that go way beyond corona virus alone.
perhaps they should only be given a loan, to enable them to return to the cash balance position pre corona, once they are fully operational. Then it’s just a corona impact loan.

[PPRuNeUser0131]

There are 1,570,505,939 shares in Qantas about. If the shareholders kicked in $1 per share that they own, or $2 per share, then perhaps the Aust Govt would not have to.

If the shareholders aren't prepared to kick in their own money, (it is their company by the way), why should the taxpayer?

Ditto with VA.

Not to mention repayment of bonuses paid to the execs. It might be nice to see some effort from the top of the company food chain as well.

[gchriste]

There are 1,570,505,939 shares in Qantas about. If the shareholders kicked in $1 per share that they own, or $2 per share, then perhaps the Aust Govt would not have to.

If the shareholders aren't prepared to kick in their own money, (it is their company by the way), why should the taxpayer?

Ditto with VA.

Not to mention repayment of bonuses paid to the execs. It might be nice to see some effort from the top of the company food chain as well.

That works if it was 1:1, each one share was owned by one Aussie who could kick in $2, which I personally would do. But of course there are a bunch of retirees holding QAN in their super funds (SMSF/Retail/Industry) who wouldnt see it the same way, especially if that $2 turned into something more significant. Unfortunate, but it aint that simple.

[777Nine]

As much as I dislike the unlikable character that is Alan Joyce, from a neutral's perspective I can see his point. Is it in the taxpayer's interest to bail out a company that simply couldn't make money for the past 8 years? Do they make a good business case? In times of economic Armageddon, it has a cleansing effect. That is, the companies were hanging by a thread were always going to be wiped out. I am definitely not against VA and I really am fond of the brand, but as a company I'm not sure it's worth saving. Why should the taxpayer bail out a company owned by foreign investors? If it was a 100% Australian owned company, then perhaps it would be worth saving. But what, just so that the investors can cover their losses and maybe it will limp along? I would much rather the government helps the employees that have been loyal to the company to this point and ensure that they have some sort of future.

I really don't want to see Virgin go or the employees suffer from this, but I think sensible decisions are required.

As for AJ, I hope that the government doesn't give him a cent.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

Qantas don’t want the bailout, that’s the whole point of Joyce’s stance. He’s just trying to muddy the waters to try and stop virgin getting a bailout, causing them to collapse, and QF having a monopoly.

[CurtainTwitcher]

edit my bold added to denote quote addition as per Capn Bloggs noted below. Apologies to ECAM, I wan't attempting to deliberately misquote or mis-represent them.
Qantas don’t want the bailout yet, that’s the whole point of Joyce’s stance. He’s just trying to muddy the waters to try and stop virgin getting a bailout, causing them to collapse, and QF having a monopoly, then a bailout later, if necessary.

I suspect that is the AJ strategy. It will be much easier to justify once a substantial period of time has elapsed. "We bunkered down for 12 months without cashflow using our own cash reserves, how long can we be expected to do that?"

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

Bare in mind that government bailouts come with strings attached, such as no dividend payments which is the case with the Air NZ bailout, which Joyce wouldn’t want.

$4 billion in cash and loans and now the government subsiding their wage bill to the tune of $45 million a fortnight for at least the next 6 months, I genuinely think QF think they can ride this out without government intervention.

I read in a article that qantas’ leasing bill is $300 million a month, which would suggest to me that they can last the distance, not sure how reputable that figure is though.

[neville_nobody]

Qantas don’t want the bailout, that’s the whole point of Joyce’s stance. He’s just trying to muddy the waters to try and stop virgin getting a bailout, causing them to collapse, and QF having a monopoly.

Joyce is taking a huge risk with that position, either that or just like Boeing he has no real conviction about government subsidy, and he doesn't need one this week.

[ABP]

Let Qantas get the $4billion+ bailout... It's still a loan. That'll bring Qantas's debt to over 10billion. More of a publicity stunt, particularly as they don't need it as they have the ability to reach another $4billion in loans without government assistance.

Virgin will likely be nationalised as they cannot service this loan. Qantas will be able to service theirs. Either way, I see VA will come out more favoured.

[SOPS]

Let Qantas get the $4billion+ bailout... It's still a loan. That'll bring Qantas's debt to over 10billion. More of a publicity stunt, particularly as they don't need it as they have the ability to reach another $4billion in loans without government assistance.

Virgin will likely be nationalised as they cannot service this loan. Qantas will be able to service theirs. Either way, I see VA will come out more favoured.

That depends if the Government is interested in owning an airline.

[ABP]

Who knows... "There is speculation a bailout could involve the Government becoming a part-owner, but Treasurer Josh Frydenberg has not ruled that in or out... "The government has made it very clear we support a sustainable, viable aviation sector... we believe having two airlines in Australia is a good thing" (Treasurer Josh Frydenburg).

"TWU national secretary Michael Kaine said the Federal Government should take a stake in domestic airlines and impose strict conditions on executive pay. It is just a short few years since the Qantas CEO was walking the corridors of Parliament House in Canberra, cap in hand, looking for a bailout following the disastrous decisions he made, including engaging in a price war with Virgin," Mr Kaine said. He now says Qantas doesn't need a bailout but spits the dummy when Virgin seeks one".

Joyce was about to leave Qantas after their 100th birthday at their highest share price ever (like most CEOs like to do). However, COVID-19 has ruined those plans. The only way to get the share price close to what it was recently is for VA to fold and therefore Qantas to recover more quickly than under the circumstances should VA stay. He'll either have to stay and get Qantas out of this mess, preferably to him with VA gone, or leave on a low.

Both VA (if they stay) and QF will recover as smaller airlines than before, for the short-medium term. With 40% of Qantas's revenue coming from international, this could take longer. Air NZ has already announced they will recover as a smaller airline, focusing away from long-haul and more on short-haul travel.

"Mr Foran said it was possible Air New Zealand would emerge from the crisis as a “much smaller airline”, saying it could be years before the carrier returned to its current size. Air New Zealand of pre-COVID-19 employed 12,500 people around the world. Clearly, we will be smaller for some time and we will need fewer staff. We expect that even in a year’s time we will be at least 30 per cent smaller than we are today, he said. Therefore we are planning to be a domestic airline with limited international services to keep supply lines open for the foreseeable future.”

I feel VA and QF will receive something. What ever that is remains to be seen!

[dr dre]

Virgin will likely be nationalised as they cannot service this loan. Qantas will be able to service theirs. Either way, I see VA will come out more favoured.

Didn’t happen for Ansett, why will it happen for VA?

We have a government that is ideologically opposed to spending money but is being forced by circumstances to spend billions on healthcare, bailing out hundreds of thousands of workers, bailing out the regional airline industry, and a large stimulus to get people spending when this is all over. I don’t think they are willing to spend unless it’s a necessity.

Ensuring two airline groups exist in the country won’t be high on the agenda of this government in current times.

[ABP]

Ensuring two airline groups exist in the country won’t be high on the agenda of this government in current times.

We can agree to disagree on that one, and that's okay! Two airlines isn't just about 10,000 jobs or maintaining the Virgin Australia brand. A monopoly affects consumerism in domestic tourism and this is much bigger than the simplistic views on monopoly issues, particularly as no other airline or business would be in a position to fill the void like Virgin Blue did when Ansett Australia left. A bailout for the main airlines will ensure Virgin Australia's survival (for a reasonable amount of time anyhow) which will hasten Australia's economic recovery, particularly in the tourism industry and others holistically.

[wheels_down]

Joyce was about to leave Qantas after their 100th birthday at their highest share price ever (like most CEOs like to do). However, COVID-19 has ruined those plans. The only way to get the share price close to what it was recently is for VA to fold and therefore Qantas to recover more quickly than under the circumstances should VA stay. He'll either have to stay and get Qantas out of this mess, preferably to him with VA gone, or leave on a low.
It’s all just revenge. Him and JB. One of the most fractured relationships in executive land. To send Virgin to the drink would be the ultimate accomplishment in that relationship.

Its nothing but an attempt to bring down the mail boy and what he had built.

Just a executive pissing contest.

[No Idea Either]

It’s more than that wheels down, it’s survival. AJ doesn’t want VA to struggle and be bailed out because he knows it will eventually happen to the mighty QF as well, that is a handout. And with that handout will come some very restrictive conditions.....regulation at the executive management level. That’s what AJ fears most. So if VA is bailed out standby for AJ ‘ oh we can do it out own’ rhetoric for a little while, but then the hand will come out. The capital raising last week reeks of desperation.

just my 2 cents worth, and in the interest of transparency, I’m pretty biased. And some may say I’m desperate too, probably am..

[Turnleft080]

So this thread is Alan V VA. Check out the CEOs of all 18 AFL clubs pulling together, collaborating together, sharing good thoughts, ideas
getting through this protecting each other. Don't see any blood letting their. Same as Coles and Woolies, Myer and David Jones, Kmart and Target.
Never seen any of these CEOs carry on like a pork chop.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

I wouldn’t want my hard earned going into a mostly foreign owned company. We need to get real in this country and start to bring stuff indoors. Restart our manufacturing industries and commence nation building projects.

SN

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

Oh, how the worm turns. When JB took over VB, there was elated hysteria about how QF was stuffed. Virgin couldn't lose. There was faint acknowledgment of the QF blokes who were now stuffed due to the new world order. Funny how **** happens. It sucks, but i's life.

[halas]

As a victim of Ansett, l understand the angst going through most of you at the moment. But remember: Things will get better, one way or the other.

Those preporting that the government will bail VA out is a misnomer. Never happened for AN won't happen now.

Those preporting that the government need two airlines: Forget it. They don't care.

As with AN, there will be some new foreign upstart that will fill the void, like VA.

Not saying anything against VA staff, but new horizons will emerge for those dedicated, like the old AN crew.

All the best.

halas

[Sunfish]

The Chairman’s lounge wins every time.

The most that the poor citizens can ask for is direct international flights daily of each state capital. Break the Sydney centric mould.

[Foxxster]

Breaking news, ASIC has started an investigation into Joyce making false statements about Virgin re Virgin being basically bankrupt and that they had called in administrators.

[dr dre]

Breaking news, ASIC has started an investigation into Joyce making false statements about Virgin re Virgin being basically bankrupt and that they had called in administrators.

When did he say exactly that?

It was more along the lines of they are in a precarious financial state. And he’s not wrong, that’s why VA is now begging for government assistance

[Foxxster]

When did he say exactly that?

It was more along the lines of they are in a precarious financial state. And he’s not wrong, that’s why VA is now begging for government assistance

“We have received reports of Qantas briefing journalists on the false pretense that Virgin Australia cash reserves are running out within days and that Virgin Australia has appointed administrators," Mr Scurrah wrote to the ACCC. "We are gathering together a range of examples of this conduct to send to you."

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/corporate-regulator-probes-qantas-as-virgin-seeks-bailout-20200331-p54fr6.html

[No Idea Either]

I’m not saying that VA will get a bail out, I’m saying that AJ wants them long gone so he can have his bailout on his terms. Spruiking this 6 billion total is pure HR scare tactic. It worked on the pilots (sans covid 19 of course) so perhaps it will work on the govt too. QF may have more cash than VA but they are burning it at 3 times the rate too. I think the solvent time frame for both is pretty similar, hence the offensive tactics. Every other industry on the planet are all pulling together at the moment, including airlines, but here in OZ, as always, we are doing our own thing. Doing our best to ruin everything. There will be hardly any international travel for a few years and a slow regrow in domestic travel. It ain’t just gonna pickup where we left off.

[Chad Gates]

“We have received reports of Qantas briefing journalists on the false pretense that Virgin Australia cash reserves are running out within days and that Virgin Australia has appointed administrators," Mr Scurrah wrote to the ACCC. "We are gathering together a range of examples of this conduct to send to you."

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/corporate-regulator-probes-qantas-as-virgin-seeks-bailout-20200331-p54fr6.html

so the quote is from Scurrah? He said, this is what Joyce said. not very concrete

[Foxxster]

so the quote is from Scurrah? He said, this is what Joyce said. not very concrete

sounds quite concrete to me. When Qantas has supposedly been briefing several journalists. Or do you think Scurrah is just making it up without any foundation. We already have Joyce recorded at the staff meeting telling staff to contact their local MP to complain about the possibility of virgin receiving any government help.

[ramble on]

When this is over there needs to be a reckoning - the so called business "leaders" that didn't step up and lead with humanity in these times need to be exposed and get sent to where they belong.

[34R]

This thread, and those like it are a fantastic example of why self isolation and pprune don’t mix.

You are all going round in circles.

Go out and get some fresh air

[strobes_on]

We already have Joyce recorded at the staff meeting telling staff to contact their local MP to complain about the possibility of virgin receiving any government help

You forgot the rest of what he said........He specifically added that it should be applied to the industry and not just one airline. Just to get the facts straight.

[WINJA]

VA like Ansett, regardless of being good or bad, aren't/weren't flag carriers. Only the flag carriers will survive the recession that Covid 19 is going to deliver us.

[Foxxster]

You forgot the rest of what he said........He specifically added that it should be applied to the industry and not just one airline. Just to get the facts straight.
To get your staff to do this sort of thing is an utter disgrace. Yes he said that as well.

but I imagine that is the least of his worries now should what Scurrah says happened actually turn out to be correct. And if SEVERAL journalists have been briefed as he says then that is entirely different to the staff briefing and much more serious.

I imagine what happened was these SEVERAL journalists each contacted Scurrah asking for comment, each telling the same story regarding lack of cash and administration pending. I do not believe for a second that Scurrah is making this up. And it is now not his word against Joyce or Qantas, it is SEVERAL journalists word against Joyce and or Qantas.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Given that QF has squandered untold millions on various pop up airlines and side enterprises with the aim of eroding the pay and conditions of its staff, I would be compelling said organization supply it’s books for audit before any bailout is granted; no books, no bailout. AJ changes his economic narrative whenever he feels a freebie coming his way. Broke one minute, record profits the next.

I’m not suggesting that this won’t test the QF finances to the limit, but it is clear that the bailout request is a reaction to losing his grip on a potential national monopoly should VA be given a hand.

[Berealgetreal]

Alan’s going to get himself into trouble. He’s certainly frothing at the mouth at the moment.

[normanton]

Nothing a chairman's lounge invitation can't solve.

[Berealgetreal]

Are you sure that's froth?

yeah walked right into that one!

[wheels_down]

Would Alan be using his government loan to prop up his offshoots in Singapore, Vietnam and Japan?

[Overspeed1]

If Allen gets that $4.1 billion here’s how I think he’ll spend it:

1. Spend 500m on 4 A350s. Despite having been in service for several years, label them “game changers”.

2. Slash 5000 jobs as part of “game changing” transformation program to recover from covid-19. 500m.

3. Engage in “game changing” $3 billion share buyback to jack up share price.

4. Pay himself “game changing” 100m executive bonus for saving the company.

5. In one final kick in the balls to the pilots, retire and appoint Tino CEO and Nathan Safe Chief pilot. Priceless.

[AerialPerspective]

There is a big difference between urging strong competitors like Banks and supermarkets to co-operate and propping up businesses which were in a perilous state BEFORE Coronavirus. COVID19 should not be an excuse to save failed businesses any more than it should be an excuse for an unregulated monopoly.

The shareholders of VA have allowed their business to be mismanaged to the point where it is today. I have no sympathy for them.

I have enormous sympathy for the 10,000 staff who will suffer as a result of their lack of leadership. This is where the anger should be directed.

As a taxpayer, I would be appalled to see Branson, who already profiteered enormously from VirginBlue (to the detriment of yours and my superannuation), be supported by the Australian Government. Same goes for the rest of the shareholders.

The Government need a solution which minimises job losses, preserves entitlements and avoids propping up failed investments by foreign billionaires and airlines.

Time for leadership

The same Branson who is being castigated from the UK House of Commons to the High Street in the UK at the moment for refusing to pay his stood down (without pay apparently) Virgin Atlantic staff even though some enterprising chap has worked out that the interest on his fortune in just 6 months would accrue more than what it would take to pay them their full wage.

A loudmouthed, BS artist... I remember him dancing on the grave of AN and also having the gall to stand up and make out the industry was nothing before he came and saved us.

His Oz outfit probably had some sort of basic profitability but was never a superstar of the business world until 2010 and then it was "We are the Borgh, you will be assimilated, your culture and your finances (and your J class cabin) will adapt to service me, resistance is futile" and thus it began, the downward slide.

Love Qantas or hate it, agree with the management decisions or the management or not, it makes a profit and Virgin don't. I wish there was a way we could save the staff but let the rest collapse... maybe pick another successful airline like Alliance and offer them the $1.4bn or even $2b and the staff and provide tax breaks for them to become the 'other' carrier. They could get the VA fleet or what they wanted of it, for $1 when the staff are safely ensconced at QQ.

Oops... did I misspell Borg LOL... (apologies to Gene Roddenberry)...

[Paragraph377]

The same Branson who is being castigated from the UK House of Commons to the High Street in the UK at the moment for refusing to pay his stood down (without pay apparently) Virgin Atlantic staff even though some enterprising chap has worked out that the interest on his fortune in just 6 months would accrue more than what it would take to pay them their full wage.

A loudmouthed, BS artist... I remember him dancing on the grave of AN and also having the gall to stand up and make out the industry was nothing before he came and saved us.

His Oz outfit probably had some sort of basic profitability but was never a superstar of the business world until 2010 and then it was "We are the Borgh, you will be assimilated, your culture and your finances (and your J class cabin) will adapt to service me, resistance is futile" and thus it began, the downward slide.

Love Qantas or hate it, agree with the management decisions or the management or not, it makes a profit and Virgin don't. I wish there was a way we could save the staff but let the rest collapse... maybe pick another successful airline like Alliance and offer them the $1.4bn or even $2b and the staff and provide tax breaks for them to become the 'other' carrier. They could get the VA fleet or what they wanted of it, for $1 when the staff are safely ensconced at QQ.

Oops... did I misspell Borg LOL... (apologies to Gene Roddenberry)...
Brilliant post and so true. Branson is not the Messiah people make him out to be. He is a marketing genius yes, but a parasite beneath the surface. He doesn’t ponce around in an Armani suit while wearing a Wall Street haircut because he prefers the ‘fun guy, I am a battler like you’ approach. But he is the quintessential toffee coated turd. He is the pied piper and while playing his tune the loyalists blindly follow him. Fools. He couldn’t give two ****s about his staff, ethics or business practises. He is about the mighty dollar and no different to any other billionaire grub. If he was ‘such a good bloke’ he would be doing something to try and save his beloved VA, which if I remember correctly
in one of his media grabbing interviews he said ‘Australia has been held ransom to two airlines for to long’ and he was here to shake things up a bit, have some fun along the way and relieve us poor convicts of the terrible AN/QF duopoly.
Yeah right. So ok arsewipe, put your money where your ego is and come and step in again with some money to ensure that Australia doesn’t end up with a one airline monopoly...... oh the silence. Sir Richard are you there? Perhaps he is hiding in a bunker deep within the bowels of Necker Island? The fool.

[machtuk]

Our corrupt Govt giving billions to QF would be like giving money to the grubby Red Cross, not all of the money reaches its target, the people who make the likes of the Leprechaun filthy rich, the workers at the coal face!

Big business runs this country, they operate our Govt like puppets!

[Higs]

If there is to be any form of assistance given to any of the Airlines, it should be in the form of temporary and limited. The idea that any of them should get billions and if they cant pay it back in 2-3 years, it becomes an equity stake is ludicrous. If Virgin fails it will because of unwillingness by the stakeholders to inject funds and poor management. I feel for the staff however, there will be another entity to fill the void eventually.

[CurtainTwitcher]

Big business runs this country, they operate our Govt like puppets!

I view it more as a continuous rolling series of hostage taking scenarios. They keep holding staff and customers to ransom, just give us the money or the staff gets it. Been going on for quite a while now.

[non_state_actor]

A very plausible scenario is that Branson will lose all his airlines.

The Government is on the record today that there will be no bailout. They are suggesting in the AFR, that Ryanair of all people is keen to pick the carcass of VA if it were to fail. I think they might want to be careful what they wish for. Michael O'Leary will be a thorn in their side if he gets a foothold in Australia.

[chookcooker]

A very plausible scenario is that Branson will lose all his airlines.

The Government is on the record today that there will be no bailout.

sorry, but where has this been said on the record??

[Fatguyinalittlecoat]

In 2003ish Geoff Dixon used Ryanair coming into the market to launch a low cost carrier as an excuse to create Jetstar.

[non_state_actor]

sorry, but where has this been said on the record??

Front page AFR. 'Senior Government Sources'.

[chookcooker]

Front page AFR. 'Senior Government Sources'.

so that’s off the record then

on the record would involve a quote and a name.

[deadc]

At least Ryan Air will be profitable and keep everyone employed which is better than stacking shelves at woollies

[normanton]

O'leary would hate it here. So many labour law protections and workers actually have rights.

Absolute nightmare.

[non_state_actor]

so that’s off the record then on the record would involve a quote and a name.
I'd take it as given there will be no bailout and unless the country gets moving by about July it will be all over. 'Senior Government Sources' is usually a euphemism for a Minister or the PM. Stand around demanding a direct quote if you like but I personally would take that as 'writing on the wall'.

Branson has gone all woke and will probably be glad that he is no longer responsible for increasing Global Warming. He'll just retire in the Caribbean with who knows how many Billions in tax havens.

[The Bullwinkle]

If Ryanair or any other operator turns up to fill the void, they'll run a mile as soon as they have to start dealing with CASA.

[wheels_down]

If Ryanair or any other operator turns up to fill the void, they'll run a mile as soon as they have to start dealing with CASA.
Forget Ryanair.

They have already played in the market, and in Singapore via Tiger.

Declan Ryan was a regular here in Melbourne and Singapore telling the peeps how he wanted the pussycat run.

Young Jack Ryan even had a aircraft named after him VH-FJR. Tiger now Scoots code is TR ie ‘Tony Ryan’. I don’t know how much more Ryanair you can get!

[chookcooker]

I'd take it as given there will be no bailout and unless the country gets moving by about July it will be all over. 'Senior Government Sources' is usually a euphemism for a Minister or the PM. Stand around demanding a direct quote if you like but I personally would take that as 'writing on the wall'.

Branson has gone all woke and will probably be glad that he is no longer responsible for increasing Global Warming. He'll just retire in the Caribbean with who knows how many Billions in tax havens.

Never demanded a direct quote at all, simply asking where the government had gone on the record.

which they haven’t. Not yet anyway.

[Renton Field]

If it’s not an attributed quote it could be literally anyone:PM,Minister,Public Service hack leaking,Q media or the journos imagination...pick one..

[Progress Wanchai]

O'leary would hate it here. So many labour law protections and workers actually have rights.

Absolute nightmare.

The absolute nightmare will be Australia’s post COVID-19 labor laws.

If you think ScoMo and his merry band of conservatives are throwing money at the working class without expecting a quid pro quo when it’s time to rebuild the economy then it’s time for a reality check. EBA’s will become the exception with many companies unable to pay even the Award. Hiring and firing rules will be relaxed to the point of being irrelevant.

The Coalition is probably the best party to lead the government right now but the workers paradise that Australia used to be is probably gone for a very long time. It’ll make Jeff Kennett’s rebuild of Victoria in the 90’s look like a picnic.

[Dragun]

I'd take it as given there will be no bailout and unless the country gets moving by about July it will be all over. 'Senior Government Sources' is usually a euphemism for a Minister or the PM. Stand around demanding a direct quote if you like but I personally would take that as 'writing on the wall'.

Branson has gone all woke and will probably be glad that he is no longer responsible for increasing Global Warming. He'll just retire in the Caribbean with who knows how many Billions in tax havens.

Remember there is a political game at play here. The government can't be seen to be just saying 'yes' to any bailout immediately and definitely not until the 11th hour. "On the record" simply has not happened and "senior government sources" is a political play to dupe the masses - of which you appear to be one. I'm not saying it's a guarantee, but when they've essentially bailed out SMEs with $100k interest free loans, bailed out regional aviation last weekend, specifically excluding Virgin and Qantas, are now supporting food exports and have categorically stated, on record, that Australia needs two viable airlines on the other side of this, have a think about the probability that the news today is simply part of a political play.

I still think the odds are that Virgin will be granted an 11th hour reprieve. There is too much at stake, far more than the $1.4b in lost tourism revenue and flow on effects. The most important point is that this is simply not the demise of an airline as a result of bad business in isolation - Virgin were well on their way to the black prior to this. Also, the perspective is a little skewed given there is a direct comparison with an airline that has one of the strongest balance sheets in the world, an anomaly by world standards in terms of self-surviving this unprecedented situation. The government shut down the ability for the airlines to operate. The business operation isn't failing during a period of free market capitalism, it has been prevented from operating at all. A very different situation indeed to enable Joe Public to see out businesses like Virgin through for their own benefit and I think most people understand the different between this and Ansett and other airline failures like them.

Furthermore, what happens if in 12 months Qantas are struggling due to a still subdued international market and go cap in hand to the government then asking for a bail out, when Virgin was allowed to fail 6 months earlier? This is an eventuality they also need to consider. Qantas might be ok now, but based on projections by Air NZ for example (who are expecting an international business 30% of the size it was pre-COVID 19), Qantas are definitely not out of the woods yet and are probably likely to require assistance at some point too. These are eventualities that advocates for letting VA go need to consider. If one size fits all, then it will still fit in 12 months.

Yet to be determined of course, Virgin might go under. However if anyone thinks an airline from anywhere or a new operator is going to sweep in over the next 12-24 months and pick up the slack where Virgin left off, given that balance sheets world wide will be decimated, has another thing coming. The public will have to accept a monopolised airline industry in this country for a long time and the airfares that go with it. Or, lend VA the money on favourable government terms and keep a fully operational airline along with trained staff and infrastructure on standby for the recovery. Seems like a relatively easy choice, politics aside.

Time will tell.

[chuboy]

The other factor is the sheer uncertainty of the scale of the pandemic. It's one thing to bail out an airline one month into an at-least 6 month long travel ban, bailing out an airline that needs capital to restart operations when there is clear light at the end of the tunnel is another.

If Virgin can hold on until it looks like domestic operations will imminently return to normal, then never say never. Otherwise, sadly I can't see the government preventing the collapse of the company.

[directimped]

.

The Coalition is probably the best party to lead the government right now but the workers paradise that Australia used to be is probably gone for a very long time. It’ll make Jeff Kennett’s rebuild of Victoria in the 90’s look like a picnic.
what workers paradise would that be exactly? Definitely not outside aviation.

Highly casualised workforce, low wage growth coupled with rapid increase in living costs especially in places like Sydney, high levels of immigration into the capital cities to facilitate "growth".

For the record I think both major political parties are rubbish. If there has ever been an opportunity for social and political reform then this is it. If we miss this one then we may as well give up.

[Progress Wanchai]

what workers paradise would that be exactly? Definitely not outside aviation.

Highly casualised workforce, low wage growth coupled with rapid increase in living costs especially in places like Sydney, high levels of immigration into the capital cities to facilitate "growth".

For the record I think both major political parties are rubbish. If there has ever been an opportunity for social and political reform then this is it. If we miss this one then we may as well give up.

Industrial Relations reforms have been on the wishlist of the Coalition for quite some time. If you think working conditions and labor laws have swung as far as they can go in favor of business, then you really need to get out more.

Voting in free market conservatives doesn’t come without cost to someone.

[directimped]

. If you think working conditions and labor laws have swung as far as they can go in favor of business
oh yes, they can go much much further.