Would You Fly For Nothing?

[Baldie Man]

Hi wannabes,

Given the recent pilot recruitment dip I have heard talk amongst newly graduated pilots looking for their first job that the "in-thing" is to stick on your CV that you'd fly for no wage just to get a foot in the door.

I must say this is stupid and iresponsible behaviour as if we all did this then the average wage for a pilot will slowly go down and the high expenses involved in getting the licence in the first place will be even more difficult to pay off once we get in the right hand seat.

I know it is difficult but could those of us currently posting out them CV's NOT do this please? Stop and think of the bigger picture!

BM.

PS: I have posted this as I've again heard that someone I used to train alongside has just fired off over a hundred "I'll work for nothing" letters to the airlines. :mad:

[Flypuppy]

Working for nothing will only do the accountants a favour.

Why doesn't he just say that he is willing to pay for his own type rating, or better yet, he'll provide a leased 737 to the company so he can paint thier company logo on the tail.

Now there is an idea why don't a group of wannabe's with more money than sense get together and dry lease a 737 so they can ask that nice Mr O'Leary if they can work for him.

The airlines must be loving this downturn, since Spetember the 11th last year they have used it as a great excuse to get rid of people and to change the way they employ people. You would never believe that we are a group of intelligent people who have spent a considerable sum of money on self sponsored training would you?

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Captain Chaos 747]

I would not worry about it, anyone sending CV's off to airlines saying "I will work for nothing" is not doing themselves any favours, the only message they are sending is that they are worth nothing and airlines would not employ them.

Plus if airlines did carry out this process of hiring people and not paying them then you would find BALPA would come down on them like a ton of bricks as well as the govement I would imagine.

[Baldie Man]

My point is not that the airlines will say "okay Joe Bloggs we'll take you on and just pay your expenses that's all" but moreover they might begin to think that a cut in wages for newbies is acceptable. I cannot imagine for one second that airlines would attempt to get away with not paying their new pilots.

It is the message these burks are sending out that could lead to the airlines lowering the wage that is the issue here.

When I borrowed the cash for my training I did so in the vague hope that I may find a flying job that will allow me to pay the bank and be able to put food in my mouth. I know it's always a gamble but as far as I can see these prats are making this plan even more unlikey. :mad:

BM.

[Tinker]

Unfortunately there are pilots out there who have/are and will fly for nothing, certainly in the US and possibly in the UK.

Morally I think it is wrong and these pilots are making a rod for their own back and for pilots in the future. They are keeping type experienced pilots out of work and setting a precedent for the future and one day these same pilots may be looking for work only to find all positions are taken by others willing to work for little or no wages.

It's much like the situation with MCC in my opinion, at one time MCC was the undertaken by the airlines but as more and more students elected to pay for their own MCC course in order to get ahead, the airlines began to realise that this would be one less expense for them and began to expect it on a CV.

BALPA and IPA should be cracking down on this, particularly BALPA as membership fees are based on a percentage of the individuals wage and as wages fall so will their revenue etc...

There was a thread in Reporting Points a few months ago concerning this subject and if you have the time I recommend looking it up as it addressed the points I have made and many others.

For those who may think that it is a way into your first right hand seat position, I suggest that you do a little bit of forward thinking as one day the person you maybe keeping out of work could be you! No matter how much you have forked out on your initial training the ultimate cost to you could be far greater.

[mattpilot]

sorry for changing the subject 'slightly', but this is relevant.

I understand, and agree, that flying for nothing for an air carrier is not morally correct. However, what do you all think if an unemployed flight instructor offers free flight instruction just to build hours?

[biped]

If you've got a commercial licence then you are entitled to be paid.
Once again, it devalues everyone and allows employers to take the p**s.

The only exception as far as I can see is volunteer work for charities/relief flights etc.

[Sheep Guts]

Only if it was for a Jet or Turbo prop Type Rating above 5700KGS.:D IE. someone paying for it other than me!

No definitely not , what are we here for fellas ,think about. Its supposed to be a profession, that incorporates getting paid.

I fly for Green Backs these days, and there looking a bit shakey;)

[Flying Farmer]

I have just got an instructors rating.
Will I work for nothing will I hell.
To anyone out there thinking of doing this DONT, some of us have familys and mouths to feed.
Its hard enough to break in to this game with out daft things like this going on.

Flying F

[Rotorbike]

If you should decide to work for free, remember the industry that you have choosen is very small and people don't forget.

The guy that you are taking a position away from, could be interviewing you in a few years time!!!

Flying Farmer has the right idea and others should follow his professional attitude.

[FlyingForFun]

It's easy to see why people are so emotional about this subject. We've all invested huge amounts of time and money into getting something we want, and then we see our dreams being shattered by a few "selfish" people who have enough money (from previous career/donated by daddy/left over from the lottery win after buying the mansion and the Ferrari) who are prepared to do something which we can't afford to do.

Unfortunately, though, this is how the laws of supply and demand work. There are currently more pilots than there are jobs for pilots. If there's more oil than there is demand for oil, oil prices go down. If there's more gold than there is demand for gold, gold prices go down. In fact, if there are more bananas than demand for bananas, supermarkets will put bananas on special offer. And if there are more pilots than there is demand for pilots, the "price" that it costs the airline to "buy" a pilot will go down. This will scare some of us away, convince airlines to hire a few of us where they may not have been able to afford to beforehand, and given time a status quo will be achieved again - albeit a slightly different (e.g. lower paid) status quo than the previous one. BALPA are there to keep an eye on things, but they can't change the fundamental way a free market economy works, as much as we'd like them to.


A completely different way of looking at the problem:

All of my flying time so far has been unpaid. In fact, I've actually had to pay for it!

I admit I only have a PPL, I'm not allowed to be paid for flying. But I fly because I love flying, not for the money. If I wanted money, I'd stick with my current career in IT. And once I get my ATPL, even if I'm lucky enough to find a job flying big jets, I'll still happily pay to fly light aircraft, simply because I love flying.

Ok, so this isn't a fair comparison at all. The flying I do at the moment isn't "work", and I certainly couldn't afford to fly for free if I didn't have another well-paid job. But I'm not aiming to get my ATPL to be a well-paid pilot. I will be taking a substantial pay cut when I get my first flying job, but I'm prepared to do this because I love flying. How much of a pay-cut would I be prepared to take? Well, as much as necessary, so long as I can earn enough to pay the mortgage, pay the bills, buy food... If I didn't love flying as much, I might not be quite so prepared to do this.

Working for free? No thank you - I can't afford it. But it's not quite as silly as it seems at first, and I really can't blame people for being "selfish" and working for the lowest amount they can afford, if they love flying enough - I'd do exactly the same if I could afford it.

FFF
---------------

[Kapooley]

Does anyone really think airlines will allow you to work for them for nothing??? Of course they won't!!!!!!!!

Apart from shafting your fellow pilots the airlines themselves will be rather suspicious of your motives. If you dont get paid it will be more like a hobby to you, therefore your actions and consequently flying may reflect this. Apart from this the unions would have a word to say to anyone "working" for nothing in the majors!!

You could of course get away with working for nothing down at the local flying club or a small air taxi company. But you are selling yourself short.

Take no notice of any idiot claiming to have sent 100s of CVs offering their services for nothing!:mad:

[spittingimage]

Let's face it, the pilot market is currently oversupplied with qualified, sometimes experienced and, in many cases, desperate pilots. The 'I'll fly for free' offers just underline this. What irritates me is the already hired airline pilots who moonlight as flying instructors, para drop pilots etc., preventing even these pitifully rewarded flying experience opportunities from becoming available to the wannabes. :mad:

[Flypuppy]

I will be taking a substantial pay cut when I get my first flying job, but I'm prepared to do this because I love flying. How much of a pay-cut would I be prepared to take? Well, as much as necessary, so long as I can earn enough to pay the mortgage, pay the bills, buy food... If I didn't love flying as much, I might not be quite so prepared to do this.

Here is the crux of the problem. Airlines realise that we in general have an emotional attachment to flying, and certain airlines are cynically abusing this. In business if I make an investmet I expect a return on that investment, 2% above base rate would be reasonable. So lets just use some scratch figures, I invest 50,000 in a project, I should reasonably expect an ROI of 6% in the first year. So for the project to have been deemed a financial success, I should get 53,000 back in the first full year after the implementation of that project. Anything less than that and I would have been better leaving the money in the bank. That I am prepared to accept a significant loss on investment in the first few years is bad enough. My decision was not based purely on business priciples, there is an additonal emotional content in that, which is always a bad thing when you talk to accountants, They hate business proposals based on emotion.

Why should we as potential employees be made to suffer the poor planning of a company or have to prop up a bad business model? Are we not training to be safety critical professionals? Aircrew make strategic decisions while airborne that could save or lose an airline money (fuel burn, divert or not divert due to tech/wx reasons, mess up a landing and see yourself on the evening news and watch the stock value of the company collapse). Why should an airline profit for free from OUR investment?

An airline is a business, it requires certain things to be an airline. Aeroplanes are one thing, but without pilots they are just very expensive garden sheds.

Supply and Demand is one thing, but why prostitue yourself?

[Baldie Man]

It's the same syndrome as when I played music professionally. I always refused to play for nothing. I had studied hard, often nine hours a day to be paid for my skills. I often got a slagging for turning down free gigs that *may* having aided my career but I had a stance that I was not going to change - the only exception were charity gigs obviously.

This "I'll fly for free" is not understandable at all FFF. :mad:

At the end of the day we are all adults who can resist the urge to do whatever we want because we have an emotional attachment. Do you grab hold of a stranger you are attracted to and shove your tongue down their throat because your emotions are running high? Of course not. Because you realise this is the wrong behaviour.

If I could resist the temptaion to play the music I love for free I am sure some wannabe can resist the flipping urge to pop "fly for free" on his/her CV!

Us wannabes need to be united on this one

Think for one second what your actions are leading to. You all know who you are!! :mad: :mad:

BM.

[foghorn]

This "I'll fly for free" is not understandable at all FFF.

Of course it's understandable. There are many people out there desperate to fly and get a leg up onto the career ladder, so it's simple short-term market economics as FFF points out. It doesn't make it morally right, or right from an airline's long term business perspective, but given human nature it is understandable.

If there are enough people out there who are rich enough to fly professionally without being paid, it would not surprise me if some airline somewhere tried to hire them (happens in some small US airlines and has been implied in some UK air taxi work I know).

I personally would question the business sensibility of this. IMHO there aren't be enough qualified people with large private incomes to make unpaid commercial pilots a viable and safe long-term business model. A short term knee-jerk to a glut of desperate qualified inexperienced pilots, yes, but not a sensible long-term model.

If an airline were forcing less well off people to work for nothing I would question the safety of this practice: Do you want one of the pilots of your flight to be wondering how to scratch together enough pennies to eat today? There are few things worse for an airline's bottom line than a crash.

cheers!
foggy.

[Kapooley]

I told you, there will be no airline (flying jets) that will allow you to work for nothing. When you come to find employment you enter a contract with that airline, a financial contract in which you work X number of hours for X pounds.

People who work for nothing indicate that they are not working for financial reward. These HR peeps will then attribute this to (a) this persons attitude to his flying is more akin to a hobby because he doesn't need paying and (b) if this guy is working for nothing what will his motivation and attitude be like when he needs to get up at 4am on a regular basis.

Not to mention possible strike action from the other pilots in the workforce who may find out.

End of story.

[Baldie Man]

I know what you're saying Kapooley and agreed with you earlier in the thread. I appreciate your trying to dispell our fears too.

If you were management and were getting letters from pilots offering to fly for free are you sure you wouldn't take a step back and think "hang on, do we need to be paying new recruits as much as we currently do then?"

Of course you would.

BM.

[Modelmaker]

I agree with FFF's point of view...
i've sent loads of cv's since the end of my ab-initio training since nov. '01 - i'm now CPL with IR/ME, MCC and frozen JAA-ATPL with barely 200fh, as simulator hours can't be counted for the total... all these negative replies do have an influence on you at the end. I'm now even officialy un-employed, something which makes me feel quite bad as I have other qualifications to start a full-time job in the aviation industry if I wanted to...

It isn't fun for my parents too - who paid for my training - and still try to help, looking for contacts through friends and family... and who now see me all day browsing the net until... perhaps one day... uncertain...

thx to god i'm a born optimistic but these are tough times for loads of low-time pilots as me...

i'm not completely behind the 'flying for nothing'-idea... paying licence reconversions, small type rating, travel, basic salary etc... ready to do this... if only some-one offered me a job... that's the clue now!

hope you get my point...

[Kapooley]

Baldie,

My last post sounds a little irate, sorry.

If I was managment I would not consider it for a moment.

Look at it from the management side. If other pilots find out it will cause widespread anger towards that pilot and the company for employing him etc. Far to risky, and would cause deep unrest in the airline!

[Baldie Man]

I hope you're right mate. ;)

Perhaps I may be getting a little jittery over this matter but I'm sure everyone can understand why seeing as I've a nice fat loan to pay back at the end of my training.

Still - it never hurts to raise these issues does it?

BM.

[Maximum]

The CV's from newbies offering to work for nothing aren't the problem. Airlines are far from naive - they know how desperate people are for that first job. But for the reasons already stated they know they have to pay people. Anyone putting that kind of crap on a CV will just be viewed as an immature idiot. Remember, when an airline hires a new F/O, they are looking for someone who will with time and experience be capable of becoming a Captain. One of the many qualities a Captain needs is the ability to stand up for him/herself down route when it's all turning into a ball of chalk. Now saying you'll work for nothing tends to give the impression that you can't even stand up for yourself......so CV filed in bin.

So these CV's will not influence the airlines one way or another. Unfortunately the real problem comes from those who already have jobs - with the wide range of ages, hopes and aspirations found across the board in any pilot workforce, managements find it very easy to divide and conquer, the end result being that pay gets driven down and the workload goes up. This is where the real problem lies.

[Carlito]

Obviously anyone who writes "fly for free" on the CV is willing to self finance another few months/year of the career to get a Type rating or build hours. And as soon as they have X hours in a Boeing they'll be sending off the CVs again, this time withtout the "fly for free" bit. Surely any airline manager worth his/her salt would see this and dump the CV?
Carlito

[Saint00]

Maybe a bit of subject. By paying for MCC and type you are accepting a huge paycut. Training more and more expensive compensation is going down in the long run wannabes will not be able to make a living.

[Bemused]

Other industries traditionally offer unpaid internship positions. We all know that experience is perhaps the biggest barrier when applying for that crucial first position – hence the main driver for working unpaid will always be with us, and always has been.

With airlines offering sponsorship in the form of type-ratings, you get valuable experience for low pay. Is this wrong also? I suspect many people will say no as you’re getting a type rating for your low/no pay. You can see how the logical conclusion will be that gaining experience may also be deemed by some an acceptable trade off for low/no pay.

Where does it stop? Do we accuse any pilot who is paid less than his/her peers of selling out? I think that Carlito’s point is extremely valid. The ‘fly for free’ person has clearly shown they’ll do anything to get ahead, the company may have invested in some training, but has invested little in emotional value (ie wages, which is what we usually associate with self worth), and the pilot will jump ship at the first opportunity of a paid position.


I whole heartedly agree that flying for free deteriorates pay scales and isn’t good for any of us, etc… but surely it’s not the only factor that lowers pay. An excess of pilots means that there will always be someone willing to work for slightly less than someone else, we all know this. We’ll never all ‘be united as one’, as Baldie Man suggests because at the end of the day, we’re all competing against each other. Perhaps the only solution would be unions or BALPA to suggest minimum pay scales for entry level pilots with airlines, air taxis, flight instructors, etc.


If there is ever a pilot deficit, the boot will be on the other foot! We’ll rise up and be paid handsomely for our skills, Comrades!

[Baldie Man]

We are all competing against each other obviously - we all know this. We are competing against ourselves in the long run if we offer to fly for nothing.

Not the only factor in low pilot pay issues granted but the only factor being discussed on this thread - hence the headline.

I have seen with my own ears seemingly intelligent graduates admiting with tired resignation that they've offered their new found skills for nothing. They wish they hadn't but as has been pointed out they do it because they see it as a short term solution to their unemployment status. They feel that even if their pathetic "plan" works they will gain experience and then move on to a paid job. So yeah - they will if it all works out but it won't because the CP will (I hope) not look twice at them.

But it is the repercussions of this that will affect us all in the long run.

I know I have belaboured the point more than once on this here thread I started but quite frankly I don't give a damn as ole Clarky G said in Gone With The Wind.

It seems to me that *some* wannabes need telling more than once because amongst the guys I know this has been discussed untill we're all blue in the face but still the excited, newly qualified pal who we all studied with, toiled with and socialised with prints out the afore mentioned words on the CV as soon as he/she has completed the MCC.

It is happening.

BM. :eek:

[Cheshire cat EGHH]

for starters you would have to be REALLY ****ING STUPID to do that..

i think you might find someone was pulling your leg here!.

Cant be bothered to justify this thread anymore by reading all of wot you guys have written.

PLAN AND SIMPLE....

IF YOU AGREE TO THAT CONTRACT, YOUR A TWIT.

[FLY BY NIGHT]

There's a lot of talk of supply and demand. Too many pilots = lower pay.
There are a lot of people turning their backs on IT. jobs here, to train towards an ATPL. I'm interested to know whether an over supply of IT. workers, as I understand to be the case, is having an effect on their wages, and do new recruits have the same problems entering that vocation???

[FlyingForFun]

FBN, to answer your question, yes, but only indirectly. A very large proportion of IT contractors are being forced to quit contracting and take up permanent roles. This would typically involve taking a pay cut of around 60%, although the additional benefits such as pension, health insurance, training etc. would mean that in real terms the pay cut is only 40-50%.

As for new recruits, no, there is no problem with new recruits. This is because the role of a new recruit is often very different to the role of an experienced professional. Having been in the industry for 6 years, I would be very unhappy if I were asked to do the role of a new recruit. Many who have been in the industry for far longer than me would be even more unhappy. Therefore, companies have to take on graduates continually to ensure they have people who are prepared to do this work. This is not the case in the airlines - a 250hr first officer will do exactly the same job as a 5000hr first officer, and so the company will hire whichever they think will cost them the least in the long run.

FFF
----------

[gizbug]

Good Point!

[window-seat]

Hi BM!!!

Who's your man on the inside??? Does his eeeeerm, dags like chasin d ponies??? Hope you get your trip sorted soon, drop us a line, and may the force be with you! ;)

[scroggs]

No UK airline could or would accept someone working for no reward. Firstly, it's not legal, and secondly no pay = no loyalty, and little accountability. The most important thing to most, if not all, airlines is safety. They are unlikely to trust their reputation to someone with so little self-respect that they'd work for free.

I would never offer a job to anyone I knew had gone down this route.

[Baldie Man]

Check ya email Window-seat.

Food still great over there? :D

BM.

[Julian]

Its not a new thing.
I have seen plugs for airlines that will let you fly RHS if you pay THEM!

I think RHS of a 737 worked out at $18000 for 1000 hours, gign down to Cititaions at about $12000. I will have to see if I can find the links again....

Not seen the same schemes over here in the UK though.

[Bahee 96]

I have to say I agree with Baldie man. These people with money to burn anyway don`t belong in aviation.
Baldie Man I salute you.:)


Baldie Man I think I remember you from Jerez, did`int you sleep with a camel.
:D

[Baldie Man]

did`int you sleep with a camel?
Amongst other things, yeah Bahee 96 (great name by the way! ;) ) Be rude to go all the way to Spain and not sample the local wildlife wouldn't it!

I think I remember you too.....sorted the smell in your room yet? :D

Back to the original topic now........

BM.

[Doudou]

Hi,
Julian is right, there is worse than people flying for nothing (yes there is : people who are paying to fly!:mad:
I heard a guy who paid to fly as 1st off in Belize I think, just in a turboprop!
When I was looking for my school, I saw school asking crazy money (don 't ask me who, I don't remember, the names and phones finished in the trash), about 70 000$ to go to the FAA ATP with 1500h, but normally a CPL with 250h costs about 20000$, the purpose was once you get your commercial, they put you in local airlines as 1st Officer to build up time, it's why they ask 50000$ more:mad:

I can assimilate 3flying for free" to prostitution, understandable in desperate situation, but never worthy long term

[skysheriff]

some remarks

there are numerous pft schemes where you actually pay to build turbo or jet time. working for free is better than PAYING to work

flight instructors, even senior ones, get paid almost ...nothing
you cant support a family on a full-time CFI or FI salary (excepted multi and advanced instruction maybe), especially in northern europe because of the weather

when you work for MOL, you have to pay to send cv, for interview, for sim assessment, for type yourself ... you work for free on first year with all those expenses

in other professions, salary for apprentices is very low

[FlyingForFun]

Well said, palgia.

As I said in my original post on this thread, there are two very good reasons why someone would fly for free.

One reason paglia has described extremely well - in the free market, with current level of supply and demand for pilots, it's a good way of building hours. I doubt it's the only way, but it's certainly a good way.

The other reason is one which Doudou and skysheriff seem to have lost sight of, and that's sad. It's fun to fly - that's why we do it! There are thousands of people across the world who regularly pay to fly. They hire from their local clubs, they pay tens of thousands of pounds or dollars for their own aircraft, pay again to hangar and insure the aircraft, and then pay again for fuel, they will beg friends to take them flying in different types and willingly pay the friends a fair share of the cost of the flight. This is what aviation is about!

Once you've made the decision that you want to fly full-time, it becomes infeasible to continue to pay to fly, or even fly for free, indefinitely. If you're going to fly full-time, you are sacrificing a career in another profession, and you instead you need to make money from flying, in the long term, to be able to live. How long the "long term" is varies from person to person, depending on individual circumstances.

But have you really lost that love of flying before you've even got your first airline job? If you have, I feel sorry for you, because I fear you're going to spend many years in a job you won't enjoy. Trust me, I've been there, in fact I'm still there now. I used to enjoy the challenge of writing computer software when I was younger; I'd often sit in front of a computer hacking away in my spare time, along with thousands of other geeks. Many of those geeks now have IT jobs, and still go home after work to experiment with new techniques or new technologies on their home PCs, and these are the people who are happy in their jobs. Others, like me, only turn their home PCs on to log on to flying websites. I don't even have any software development tools installed on my home PC any more. I've lost the love of computers that I had, and I hate my job. I don't plan on letting my flying career go the same way. Doudou and skysheriff, I hope you haven't lost your love of flying, because I feel sorry for anyone stuck in a career doing a job they no longer love.

FFF
-----------

[Modelmaker]

palgia and PPP - i agree what you 2 stated and i'm one of those 250fh frozen ATPL buddies... my english isn't so perfect to put emphasis in what i'm trying to explain...

true... true... 250fh is just nothing, it's just merely enough to pass the IR-exam and that's all... we lack loads of experience and surely those (like me) who are unemployed more than a half year, and even less... it just looks like i'm an average ppl-er who comes to club to fly the c172 in order to maintain its flying skills and its minimum of hours... (no offense here - it's my case!)
After such a flight, i feel very relieved, it relaxes me so much and gives me more strength to continue the job-battle! seriously, if i didn't feel that little extra anymore, i would just quit that piloting-thing...

and look... we're still young - we don't even know what real work is! unless i don't find a way to hourbuild somewhere in the world (thx god it's big, i'm never done :D ), i'll just take advantage of my other qualification to get a job in aircraft maintenance or ATC... that should do the trick in the meantime... another thingie to add to our almost 'naked' cv's!!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

There is nobody that I know that lets you pay for flying commercially in the JAA. This is really an American disease and as such is not a concern to JAA license holders.

Paying for type ratings is.

There are very very few quality operators out there who will be happy with a self sponsored type rating conducted at an unfamiliar training organisation some months ago where the student was also the paymaster. For obvious reasons.

Therefore unless you have a virtual IN to a particular company on a particular type I would strongly advise you not to pay for your own type rating on spec.

Frankly the kind of small airline that makes you pay to work for them is just the kind of airline that will infect you with bad habbits and low standards.

Stay away in JAA land.

WWW

[Baldie Man]

Hi there folks,

Okay, firstly I would like to take Palgia up on a few points he/she raised in their post. I have had a walk around the block and been to feed the ducks down the lakes to calm down a little because I was a little angry after reading the post to be quite frank. I doubt very much whether you are in my shoes with £54'000 to pay back to the bank.

So, to address some points made by Palgia:

It looks like the "250-hour-frozen-ATPL" pilots are just too proud to fly for free. Too bad for them. It is most definately not a case of being to proud to fly for free but purely a financial situation here. I do not feel I will know it all once I've got my licence and speaking to guys who've flown for years one never does apparently.

If you love to fly, you'll have no problem with that.
I do have a problem with that because I cannot afford it once I have my licence and neither can many others in my shoes.

Training doesn’t end at the frozen ATLP exam…. I know it would be nice if the airlines paid for all the training... but they are cutting on costs and unfortunately they wont. Cant do much about it.
You can do something about it by not playing ball. Do not offer to fly for free. Don't pay to fly either, instead sit back and be patient. Simple as that.

The airlines are hiring, just not the average "250-hour-frozen-ATPL" pilot...
They were prior to 11/9 2001 and they will once things pick up again.

. Alternatively, you can just get the money from the same place you got the previous $50,000
And just exactly what planet are you living on these days? I won't even bother to explain the problems/dangers of borrowing more money when you already owe £54'000.

But please don't despise those who are working hard to get to the airlines, doing whatever it takes.
Well I hope you'll excuse me if I do despise them but because of them the chances of my parents house being repossesed increase. Thank you for that. Maybe you'd like to break the news to them? No? Didn't think so.

AS for you Fly For Free:

The other reason is one which Doudou and skysheriff seem to have lost sight of, and that's sad. It's fun to fly - that's why we do it!
I wonder what you think makes someone with a nice job, house and security one day decide to risk it all to get a CPL? Insanity? We all love flying but that love has to be balanced with a sane approach to finances. We are not made of money. I am training to get a commercial pilots licence. This means that along with my flying skills I should have a keen business head at times to go with it. Airlines are there, as we all know, to make a profit and once employed by them I will be doing my damdest to make them money. It will be my job.

What sort of business head would you be showing by offering to fly for nothing?

The student now picks the bill up for the MCC thanks to those trying to get ahead so if things continue in this vien under the crappy excuse of "supply and demand" then a wannabe commercial pilot will soon be looking at an initial outlay of nearer £100'000 to fulfill the dream.

I would suggest you button it for the time being FFF untill the time comes that this issue is directly concerning you. When that time does come you may change your tune. :mad:

BM.

[redsnail]

CPL holders are professionals. I wouldn't ask a plumber to work for free, why should any one expect me to fly for free in a commercial operation? If the charter mob or parachute company can charge for their services, I expect to be paid.
Yes flying is fun but try telling that to the supermarket at the checkout.
Ok, you don't have the hours. If you are single leave the UK for a while and get a job o/s. Africa hires low houred pilots. Oz and Canada do too. (However, in Oz the competition is very very tough) Sort out the immigration hassles and away you go. Life is an adventure, what an opportunity.
Don't want to leave the UK? Ok, think outside the loop. You are a pilot! Seek out parachute operations, look for interesting niche flying. I am sure there are some scenic type flights you could do in summer. If not, see if you can generate some interest. Surely 50 hours paid flying is better than nothing? Friendly with the local gliding club? Help them out with glider towing.
Just don't sit around expecting the shiny jet job to come to you.

[FlyingForFun]

Baldie Man,

I would suggest you button it for the time being FFF
I thought we were supposed to be adults in here? I have an opinion which is different from yours, I thought the idea of a forum is that we express our opinions, and debate them. So no, I won't button it.

As for waiting until the time when the issue directly concerns me, because I'm too impatient to wait that long, I'll instead tell you about a couple of acquaintances of mine who have already reached that stage, and progressed past it. Like one of the co-owners of my aircraft, who, despite having an ATPL and several tens of thousands of hours, still enjoys flying enough to not only pay for a share in the aircraft, and pay to use it, but also put up the majority of the money required to build it until shares could be sold off. Or my flying instructor, who, on a flying instructor's wage, still managed to find the cash to buy a share in his own aircraft, and log 10-15 hours a year in it on top of his instructing time. Probably didn't help him get the airline job which he eventually got, although it certainly didn't harm - but the reason he did it was because he wanted to fly, and didn't mind paying for it.

But, as I've said several times already, everyone's financial position is different. You are clearly not in a position to be able to pay to fly, nor fly for free, because you have large debts secured on your parents house. I also won't be in a position to do that - not full time, at least - because I have a mortgage to pay. But that's not going to cause me to criticise those who can afford it - any more than I'd criticise those who can afford to buy Ferarris for doing so, and therefore increasing the demand for them and pushing them out of my price-range. If I were in your position, I'd follow Reddo's excellent advice and find whatever paid work you can, even if it's not flying airliners.

You also said:

Because of them the chances of my parents house being repossesed increase
Several people have said this is unlikely, because although people may be willing to work for free, there aren't many who would hire them on these terms. I'm not in a position to be able to say whether this is true or not, but the arguments being put forward certainly sound feasible to me. So no, these people are not in any way affecting the chances of your parents house being reposessed. I don't think you say what you're currently doing in the way of looking for work, but if all you're doing is waiting for that airline job offer to fall through the letterbox, then that is probably what's making the reposession of your parents' house more likely. (And if you are actively looking for work apart from with the airlines, then my apologies for implying that you're not.)

FFF
-------------

[Baldie Man]

FFF,

Currently plowing through the training at the mo'. Job hunting comes soon by which time the recruitment trend may be well and truly be set thanks to those currently offering their services for free.

As for my desire to fly that is not really for you to question is it? As it is you can rest assured that I think more about flying than I do about sex so I hope that clears that one up. :D

I am aware that this is a forum for all to discuss issues on but my own personal gameplan is never to post on a thread that does not directly concern me. You will rarely see me posting in the R&N section as I am not by definition a professional pilot yet so I keep me kneb out. That is my choice though. I appreciate your choice to comment on those issues that are not directly affecting you and your response is appreciated as such by myself.

Thank you.

BM.

Edited as I've just re-read your post and see that you do not directly question my desire to fly but nevertheless I feel you alude to it. Apologies if to you this is not the case.

[tailscrape]

Fly for free?

Consider this:

You have spent £60k and worked hard to get flying. You get established in an airline you love. Great. Things look rosy.

Then along come some wannabees who are desperate to fly. Just like you were.

However, you had principles, so you built hours, instructed and whatever.

These youngsters just want to get in a jet yesterday. They come and fly for nothing and that affects your security and negotiating power.

So, what happens next?

Well, you are on a contract and are very secure because of that. However these free wannabees are not. They get shafted when offered a full time job and are compelled to accept it, because no one else will give them a job because they are seen as cheap pilots.

All in all, it won't help the existing pilot or the wannabee.

They don't realise it, but it is a better idea to hang out for better terms and conditions, not offering work for nothing.

I think most UK airlines will recruit again in the coming six months.

Why panic?

[Lazlo]

Baldie Man,

Like you, I have had to wait a bit before writing this in order to calm down a bit. Palgia is simply an example of everything that is wrong or can go wrong with this industry. He seems to think that you should do whatever it takes to get the job but apparently he doesn’t have any pride or dignity. Working for free is no better than prostitution and you should be treated like one if you do this. And paying to fly, well that’s for hobbyists not professionals. This stuff goes on in the US but fortunately it is fairly rare elsewhere.

When I was a new pilot, very naïve, with low hours and had just completed my instrument rating I was phoned up by the air taxi company I had just done my IR with. They needed a second pilot to come along for a flight the next day, would I do it. Sure I said, no problem, and money didn’t even come into my mind at the time except that for the first time ever I wouldn’t be paying hundreds an hour to fly a multi-engined aircraft. I did the flight the next day and as a sort of aside I mentioned the topic of money. Minimum wage I was told, but that I should be grateful because as far as he was concerned I was getting paid minimum wage PLUS a couple of hundred an hour which is what I would have paid for these hours if I was renting the aircraft to build hours. OK so for the eight hours I got that day I could consider myself 1600 better off plus a bit extra for minimum wage. I didn’t like the logic but at the time I was just happy to have helped out, gotten a bit of experience and some multi engine hours. But the next week when I went to collect my “paycheque” the owner was certainly surprised that I even wanted the money. He had obviously been banking that I wouldn’t bother and would work for free. OK minimum wage is almost nothing but I certainly would never work for free, not then, not now, not ever. I had to hassle them for several days to get that cheque. I never did get any more work from them, I suppose they found some other sucker to work for “minimum wage plus 200 and hour”.

Less than a year after that I walked into a major airline job with full salary, benefits and pension. I fly a large Boeing aircraft. Does that mean I should get paid minimum wage because if I had to rent the aircraft I would be paying god knows how many thousands an hour to fly and therefore I get paid thousands an hour in real terms? Not a chance. Never paid for a type rating (another abysmal practice) and never would. From reading the above postings there seems to be this general fear that these suckers who are sending out the “I will work for free” letters are getting jobs but as has been pointed out before, most are not and those that are, are getting jobs not worth having. “Good things come to those who wait” I was once told by a friend when I was despairing at being unemployed and I can tell you they were right.

FFF,

Having been an airline pilot for several years now I would like to give you some words of advice. Having fun while flying is of course very important, but important in terms of job satisfaction and nothing else. It is certainly not the most important thing. I know a lot of pilots (captains mainly) who are sick of flying but they do it because it is their job and they have lives - familes with children who depend on that paycheque that dad (or mom) brings home. The industry is unstable enough without these bottom feeders offering to work for free. Most people in this world hate their jobs and pilots are quite lucky in that there are probably more of us who love their jobs than there are who hate them. That does not mean that we should or would work for free or (god help us) pay to fly. If you pay to fly you are a hobbyist. Nothing more. Many pilots I fly with are part of a local flying club or pay to rent company Cherokees or own part or all of an aircraft. But that is done on their spare time, and it is completely separate from their day to day job which is commanding an aircraft with the responsibility of $100 million worth of machine and 330 men women and children who are depending on them to get them to their destination safely. That responsibility requires renumeration regardless of whether or not the pilot likes their job. Poor managers don’t like pilots, usually because they are secretly jealous because they hate their own jobs and wish they had made better career choices earlier on. I think it is fun to fly and personally I love it but I will tell you this: It is NOT FUN TO FLY WHEN YOU ARE GETTING UP FOR THE SIXTH MORNING IN A ROW AT 3AM, or are flying back from Greece at 2:30AM struggling to stay awake. That’s what they pay me for. I love to fly but it is not my hobby. That hobby ended when I got my first job and you would be well advised to keep that in mind if you intend to embark on a flying career.

Oh and by the way I just met some of our new 250 hour pilots who are now flying right seat B757. Great guys – worked hard to get where they are and are doing a great job considering the mountain they had to climb. What Palgia presents as facts are, in fact, not fact.

Lazlo
;)

[Soggy]

Having come across this a number of times I think any airline practising this is putting themselves in great danger. The purpose of two pilots is obvious.
Imagine the papers if a crash occured and they found out the first officer was a rookie flying for nothing. Futher more, imagine the pawyers and legal firms. They'd be out of business i no time. These desperados will get nowhere!!
Dont worry about it!!

Personally I think all the airlines are on a hiding to nothing. WHat goes around comes around!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[FlyingForFun]

Baldie Man, I'm pleased we're discussing this sensibly now, especially since most of your posts on this and other forums suggest that you're a likeable, intelligent bloke. Good luck with your training, and let's hope that by the time you and I have our frozen ATPLs in hand, the situation has improved enough that it's inconcievable that this subject ever came up!

Lazlo, an excellent post, some well thought out arguments that don't seem to be driven by emotion (although you did say it took a couple of days to calm down!) It's given me a slightly different way of looking at things.

I'm afraid I'm not going to change my mind on this. Life is unfair, and it always will be, whatever you choose to do. The best anyone can do is look at their situation, and do whatever it takes to get themselves from their current situation into one where they have a better chance of achieving what they want to achieve. Often they will be affected by things completely outside their own control, whether it's people with more money than them, September 11th, or any number of other things. Complaining about these events rarely helps. All you can do is re-evaluate your situation, and decide whether there's something more, or something different, which you can do to get yourself ahead of the game. But I certainly appreciate the other side of the argument, even more so after reading the comments on this thread.

Let's take comfort in the fact that, as has been mentioned several times, the whole thread is largely academic because so few operators are prepared to allow pilots to work for free. :)

FFF
--------------

[Julian]

Almost WWW, as you rightly say this is a US idea and generally goes under the title of "Zero To First Officer Program" if you want to do a search on the net. I did come across one US based school which included RHS as part of the package to which it stated that this part of the the program "will be conducted in Europe". All the rest were US based 'programs'

[Bahee 96]

Baldie Man obviously has an atitude problem and won`t suceed in this profession. This is a public forum ,everyone has a right to post their opinion even if its as nuts as yours Flying For Fun. This is a tence discussion but we should`int lose the rag, alright BM.
This is a stressful time for all aviators but we have to continue to work hard at the goals in hand and not be lead a stray by stupid unintelligent posts by people just looking for a laugh.


BM a bit of advice, I think a career in gardening would be your best bet.

I think I swallowed an ant.:D

[skysheriff]

Scroggs, i beg to differ :

>No UK airline could or would accept someone working for no >reward. Firstly, it's not legal, and secondly no pay = no loyalty, >and little accountability. The most important thing to most, if not >all, airlines is safety. They are unlikely to trust their reputation >to someone with so little self-respect that they'd work for free.

>I would never offer a job to anyone I knew had gone down this >route.

thats exactly what Ryanair and Virgin are doing : paying upfront in cash for your type rating. Type cost is almost one year salary. Even senior jet pilots qualified on other types have to pay for conversion !

[Baldie Man]

Bahee96,

"Are you kicking off??!!" :D

Good to see all the Spanish sun has not corroded that wind-up sense of humour of yours yet!! :)

Good lad!!

BM.

[Nearly Man]

Its the 'I'm alright Jack' part of it that gets my goat!

Would be good to have some sort of 'SCAB' list .. you know, who to not buy drinks for at the bar!
If you have no value of your worth then you should go dig cesspits for free :p