Who Wants to join CATHAY!!!!! [Archive]

BanBreaker

12th Aug 2002, 07:26

Who would join Cathay?

Yes

NO

NOT SURE

This post in Fragrant Harbour will just get attacked by highly strung unionists , but regardless of the present recruitment ban placed on Cathay Pacific by the IFALPA , who would join Cathay if given the chance?

The ban has been an ongoing issue for more than twelve months. I agree the 49’ers need the support but I disagree with asking other people to take the stand for the cause.

For many years Australia and New Zealand have been an excellent source to recruit pilots from for Cathay Pacific. I am just curious to see if the desire to work for Cathay is still strong amongst fellow aviators in the region under the current circumstances.

So guys and girls a show of hands who would join?

Sopwith Pup

12th Aug 2002, 08:15

No Thanks!

Mud Skipper

12th Aug 2002, 09:07

Don't think so.

But Dragon Air sounds OK.

Best stay where I am though!

:D :D :D

Hugh Jarse

12th Aug 2002, 09:11

The recruitment ban is a demonstration of hypocrisy at it's best.

People over there are still accepting upgrades while trying to enforce a recruitment ban. How does that work?

Shouldn't those with a true conscience refuse to be upgraded in order to keep the balance?

What do you all think?

Dan Kelly

12th Aug 2002, 09:54

I'm with you Jarse, it seems to be the height of hypocracy to expect new hires to carry the load whilst the upgradees take ...... an upgrade.

How's the splash goin'?

whistlingdixy

12th Aug 2002, 09:55

Ban-breaker-boy:

Agree with your sentiments and stance on the ban BUT extremists from AOA, Management, or New Joiners are not required at the moment.

Support for the 49ers is strong...... support for the ban is not as strong...... but it is still there; esp amongst australians.

If you are new here, I suggest you keep you head down and nose clean until you know what youre 'stirring' may get you in for. Dont wrestle the pig my friend: 1. the pig likes it, 2. you always end up covered in ****.

Your HA HA signature block is inflamatory and frankly not at all constructive! When this fiasco is over we all at CX will need a pilot body/union to negotiate our contracts. Whether it is the current AOA maybe arguable but either way YOU will need that body too! Think about that for a bit and maybe ask those of us who are 'on your side'.

If youve just joined in the past month then trust me dont go to LKF with that chip on your shoulder..... and steer well clear of stormies & als diner.

Just friendly advice my friend

BanBreaker

12th Aug 2002, 10:11

Point taken Wistlingdixy

I understand what you are saying, points noted and taken. Just need to get some feed back from fellow aviators within the industry because this whole recruitment ban has been very one sided and as much as it’s affecting everyone at Cathay , it’s also affecting hard working guys that really want to work for the company.

There needs to be a voice from they other side saying "Hey we like this company and we still really want a career here."

I would like to see everyone under a common umbrella, that would be ideal.

Lets hope things resolve soon , because they’ve been going on for far to long!

hvy 18 wheeler

12th Aug 2002, 11:42

Don't blame the AOA only for the recruitment ban. You must also blame the company Cathay Pacific Airways, for not following status quo and following the D&G procedure laid down in the C.O.S.
Sure the AOA voted for industrial action, hey which pilot body or group hasn't in the last decade, most if not all companies only seem to listen when a unified workforce stand up and say enoughs enough, lets get this fixed.
If you have just joined cx as a s/o then you can thank the AOA for negotiating a fairer deal for new joiners like the s/o's as up to only a few years ago they had the same ****ty deal that the new joiners in QF get ( reduced salary and no seniority # until checked to line). Now days s/o's get full pay from the day they arrive in adelaide, they get relocation allowance of HKD$10,000 for the hassle of having to go to adelaide and hong kong, they also get a small allowance in YPAD of approx AUD$ 500. Then they get to hongkers and get an interest free loan of another HKD$ 100000 to help them out, then after 2 years service they get full housing allowance to rent or buy, now I don't know if you understand what HKD$ 41,500 get you per month but it is nearly if not more than your monthly salary. All of which was fairly negotiated between the company and the AOA.
If you happen to want to join the aoa but want to sit out the present dilema, that is your choice, however, the day will come when your conditions are under threat, and I look forward to being the fly on the wall when you go up to the 3rd floor and ask for a fair deal.
Remember the company only seems to like talking /fighting with the union.
My idea would be that if you dont want to be in the aoa then if you want to accept the increases to your COS you should pay the aoa the 4 % and say thankyou!;)

backspace

12th Aug 2002, 23:00

HVY

I think the point of all this is that it alienates the new 2nd officers from the AOA when I am sure that most would join and support the AOA in its attempts to keep/get better conditions.

NoseGear

13th Aug 2002, 05:01

Backspace, that is not the point unfortunately. If they really wanted to support the AOA, they would not go to CX, yet. The AOA is trying to apply pressure to the company for several reasons, not least of which is the 49'ers. To try and acheive this, the recruitment ban was established. Now, if the pilots who have flown in the face (no pun intended) of the ban were not so short sighted, then likely this would already be over. But, they have gone, and so the position of the overall pilot body is weakened. So, in turn this ban goes on. I am not a pilot with CX, would like to be, but will wait until this is resolved as I can see the new joiners getting a big shafting, probably not long after this is resolved, when there will be A scale, B scale and then C scale, and that won't be worth it.

Banbreaker, I know what you are saying, but if you really want a career there, then why undermine your very own future earnings and stable career path to go early? If you are "Cathay" materiel then they will wait for you too!

18 wheeler, a very good point made, regarding the companys instrangience towards the pilots. Another fine example of drive by management!

backspace

13th Aug 2002, 06:19

Nosegear

The point is that there are people taking the jobs. The company is not short of applicants or people accepting and you are right the position of the AOA is weakened by this. This should be enough of a hint to the AOA to change their tack and try something that is effective, whatever that may be.

That I believe should be to enlist all the new hires into the AOA and put themselves in a stronger position rather than an ever weakening one.

BanBreaker

13th Aug 2002, 07:12

Some intelligent valid points spoken.

A good idea would be to enlist the new joiners into the AOA and have a larger stronger pilot body, then take another stance with industrial action such as work to the rule.

I believe a new tactic such as work to the rule and increasing support with new joiners included in the AOA, would be an effective way to apply pressure to achieve the desired results.

Regardless of the morals behind a “Recruitment Ban” and weather or not a person should or should not join, the fact is they are ineffective and people are still very willing to join the company.

There has to be a better and more effective option, rather than splitting the pilot body even further and not achieving the required objectives.

Suggestions anyone?

tone-uncage-fire

13th Aug 2002, 07:43

In the history of aviation industrial relations there has never been an effective ban, in terms of stopping new joiners........ whether it is effective as a tool to force the management to talks is of course another story. I guess the question is how long can each side hold out?

Question: Can the company afford the statis quo? Answer: Yes (and a healthy quarterly profit to boot.... 9 new acft due in the next 2 yrs; yep, they are really hurting)
Question: Can the AOA/49ers afford the statis quo? Answer: No (In my opinion)

Each new joiner equals HKG$15360 per year to the union in fees, let alone support for the further action ND & JF are proposing. (SCMP article)

235 new joiners x 15360 = HKG$3,609,300 per year (thats half a million US$ per year)*

(*Figures based on current recruitment until end of 2003, assuming ban still in effect and current 4% union fees.)

Its a mystery.

zone

13th Aug 2002, 08:42

Nose Gear

Some of us can't wait indefinetly. Some us have not flown since September 2001 (Ansett) and are loosing currency and hence employablility. If you look at the contract web sites for pilots you we see they all ask how many hours flown in the last 6 months or last 12 months. Soon the answer will be zero/zero. Some of us see Cathay as the only chance to fly again, and we are being asked not to apply. Just how long do you expect us to wait with absolutley no sign of a change in the status quo?

shortly

13th Aug 2002, 10:44

The ban is immoral and hypocritical. The AOA, which represents some of the best paid pilots in the world, has been taking industrial action against the Company for ten long boring years. The pilot body at CX is split, started with introduction of B scale, then basings, then ASL now this farce. During all the earlier company actions which caused those splits there prevailed an 'I'm alright Jack' attitude. The sad aspects of the dispute at CX, well the AOA think there is a dispute CX management probably don't, is twofold. First the 49ers have become martyrs to union ineptitude and second the real reasons behind the unhappiness are fading into oblivion. The industrial situation in Hong Kong has been touted as the reason why the union will not strike. Well that in itself is a fabrication. There have been strikes in Hong Kong, some even successful. However, under the contract terms for all CX employees either the employee or the Company can cancel the contract with three months notice or payment in lieu and no reason has to be given. Theres the rub. If the almost 400 of the 1600 pilots who seem to support ND to the point of lunacy follow him over the cliff they will be terminated along with the 49ers. The other 1200 or so pilots will keep operating, their positions will be filled easily and the Company will hardly even feel it. Probably help the bottom line. It's a pity to me that this post was raised in the Antipodean forum. Would have preferred the rubbish to follow my post to stay in Fragrant Harbour. Good luck to all. All CX courses are full to next year and the interviews are chocka block. I strongly recommend all who wish to join CX to, at least, come for the second interview and then make a decision based on information you can easily get from your fellow pilots up here.

tone-uncage-fire

13th Aug 2002, 11:04

See you in the fong for a beer? Great post!

tifters

13th Aug 2002, 12:35

Read this post and thought of some things that i would like to pass on to those looking into Cathay....
I am an Aussie FO (ex GA/Regional) up here in Hongkers and although i dont really agree with this ban i can see the purpose. We dont have many industrial options here and some of these silly games that we get up to are out of necessity rather than for the hell of it. It is though, very unfortunate that some great pilots are affected by this ban and instead of hurting the company it is hurting those pilots.
I would just say that if you are thinking about joing the mayhem up here have a really good think about it. The union ban is a big thing and i can tell you in some countries we fly to, they will make you liable for any problems that are caused by your aircraft and as has happened in the past some unions have managed to save some asses. Another point is that Hong Kong is a very difficult place to live in as it is, the locals here dont want us, the management hate us and our own ground staff hate us too!!! Now add to this half the pilot population that will make life more difficult, makes for some very uncomfortable conditions for the new joiners!!! Remember too that alot of our Check+Trainers are avid union members and have lost close friends in the 49ers, can imagine what they will think.
The IALPA ban was imposed after some advice from IALPA and as i said i dont really agree with it, i have to go along with the unions advice because i do believe we have to fight the greed of our management and their total disregard for our contract and Conditions of Service. You just have to look to the USA at Worldcom and the likes of Enron to realise that these CEOs will do and say about anything to line their own pockets and that of their shareholders............stuff the workers!!!!!!!!!
So, have a good long term look at this before just jumping in. If you think still that you need to get the job then good luck, i for one would never call you a scab, i just felt that i needed to pass on to you some of the realities you will face. Remember that if it does prove to be too much crap for you to handle, youll have an international ban hanging over your head and you just have to ask an ex Ansett pilot what that feels like now!!!!

Java

13th Aug 2002, 12:54

tifters

Lovely scare tactics, but with that touch of concern and consideration.

BanBreaker

13th Aug 2002, 14:11

I’m glad that this post has been quite constructive and all the opinions are valid and informative.

The pole itself shows that people are going to join regardless, numbers , statisticians and history will tell you this.

Bottom line is, right now aviation as a whole is depressed , so people are willing to join the company in order to feed their loved ones.

18 months ago when aviation was booming it would have been a different story, but circumstances prevail and unfortunately the rules are now different.

I don’t appose unions nor their objectives, most new joiners would even part with their hard earned dollars in order to support the 49’ers given the opportunity. For the rest of my career I would pay 5 % to help those guys.

As they say in the western movies a retreat and regroup is required with a new set of objectives, in order to meet the required deadlines.

I know that not all of the AOA members hate new joiners, and I hope we can one day work together towards a common goal with the pilots’ best interest at heart.

Enough pilots already have been hurt by these unfortunate events, lets’ make some new tactics, join together and work for positive results.

It’s been to long guys, I hope we can get the best outcome for everyone.

BanBreaker.

:)

tone-uncage-fire

13th Aug 2002, 15:41

Point of Order Mr Chairman,

Tifters ol'bean, dont disagree with your sentiment but the Management, Groundstaff and Hong Kong locals dont hate Cathay Pilots............

..........the hate the union activities!

Have you been into the city lately. The 2nd question I get nowdays is "are you in the union"...... people know, what they like and dont like (see the post about striking at FH)

People in HKG dont give a toss about the ban; all they see is a union holding HKG to ransom (nice spin from the company I suspect)

Amusingly I have seen a few AOA boys deny their membership to avoid a mainly expat angst.

shortly

13th Aug 2002, 15:56

When you consider around 56% of CX workforce earn less than HKD10 000 per month, and often have to work 6 days. They get no expat perks like housing, education and only local super. They do have little sympathy for union activities and are slowly but certainly being isolated completely from the pilot body. The spin from the company which usually only quotes the top few percentile of wage earners in the pilots contributes to their feeling of angst. There are obviously issues to be addressed at the company but trying to negotiate behind the threat of increased action is playing into the CX managements hands both in the company and in the population at large in Honkers. Make a few concessions (more), stop industrial action and go back to the table. IMHO the management are holding not only the Aces but also all the trumps in this 'dispute'.

Helibloke

14th Aug 2002, 03:34

Tifters,
You seem to imply that all ex-Ansett pilots fall into the 'Scab' mould!
I think you mean the ones who joined AN during the 89 dispute up to june 90. If you think that the Scab label has hurt them then think again my friend, it is mostly ex AN Captains who are picking up the contract work and jobs with SQ, Korean and many other Airlines around the globe. Sure none of them are getting a look in with VB, However, It would appear that the other Airlines dont really care about your past just your experience level and currency
Again i really hope your not calling the non Dispute invovled pilots Scabs
Cheers

NoseGear

14th Aug 2002, 05:18

Banbreaker, I know we obviously disagree on how the union should handle the industrial action. The ban sits uncomfortably with myself, however I am trying to look at the big picture. I wonder about your statement regarding the excuse about need to feed one's family as a reason to break the ban. I know that most pilots applying are currently employed, with the possible exception of the Ansett guys, and my sympathy goes out to you (zone included obvously). I would not like to be in your situation, it would be a very tough call, and not one I would like to have to make.

Backspace, you countered your own argument there. Another reason the new s/o's can't help is they are on probation for the first 12 months, so joining the union would probably not be looked upon in a rosy light.

Java, tifters is telling it like it is up in Honkers. You live and socialise with those you work with, and if those you work with don't want to associate with you, then you'll most likely find yourself at a lose end. If you have a wife, then likely she will be quite lonely when you are away on your trips. Please don't take this as a threat, because it is NOT! It IS however what may happen.

Shortly, this has been a good post, with none of the rabid replys so abundant on Fragrant Harbour. But I really have to ask, if you're employed as a pilot by CX, then why are you such a sh!t stirrer? And why would you not want to protect what you already have? Or are you a "newjoiner s/o"? Management maybe? Please, do tell.:D

tifters

14th Aug 2002, 07:57

Couple of quick answers...yes i am in the union and am a firm believer in them. I voted against contract compliance last year as i didnt think it was working, however i wont quit the union as i have to look at the big picture, we must stop these greedy corporations degrading our industry for the quick buck!!!!
Secondly, absolutely not calling all ex AN guys scabs, in fact i havent called any of them scabs, i was mearly pointing out the trouble alot of them have had finding steady employment back in aviation without having to work for some Asian carriers that have safety records second to none.
My post was a heads up, things arent all rosey up here and i figure the new joiners will find it hard going at times, especially from the hard liners.
If you still want to join then fine but as someone has stated we need balanced reporting and if you are smart you must get maximum information before making such an important decision.

VR-HFX

14th Aug 2002, 09:05

This is a good thread.

I disagree with Shortly on one matter only; namely that this discussion should be on Fragrant Harbour. The reason being that riff raff like 411A don't seem to have found it yet.

In addition, this thread has particular relevance to Oz given the huge amount of turmoil that has taken place in Oz aviation since the late 80's, the legacy it has left behind and the current employment prospects for a large number of highly qualified and motivated people who love aviation.

CX has a rich goldmine in which to prospect.

Shortly is absolutely correct when he describes the varied views and perspectives that exist within the CX pilot body. This is however a microcosm of what HK is actually like at every level.

I have studied this place for more years than I care to remember. I have seen the good old days when management couldn't get us pay increases and bonusues quickly enough to more recent times when reality set in.

It is how everyone has reacted to these changes that has dissappointed me.

The late Peter Sutch (MD of CX and Chairman of Swire Group)was a wonderful man and highly thought of by all. I do have to wonder,however, if he would be so kindly thought of if he had Eddington's job or now Turnbull's job.

Management has disappointed me because they didn't have the courage to restructure the business properly in the first place. The root cause of a lot of trouble and the divisions in the pilot body is due to the A & B scale and all the other permutations that have happened since. I do not believe in my heart that this complexity was created by management to divide and conquer. A company like Swire does not change from being a benevolent employer into a conniving, penny pinching scrooge in a couple of years.

One of the posts started comparing management to the likes of Enron, Worldcom and Global Crossing. I can assure any of you young blokes in the company that the Turnbulls, Tylers and Rhodes of this company do not make big bucks.

I think the real parting of the ways came about when the AOA publicly pronounced CX management unfit to run the business.

An insult is an insult in any culture.

The AOA has got it fundamentally wrong. They can huff and puff all they want and they will get support from a lot of the guys who believe that a union is necessary even though the current situation seems untenable.

There are a large bunch of guys who would happily pay the 5% to support the 49'ers as a stand alone issue. The problem is that issue cannot be resolved in the current framework.

What the pilots need are advocates and that does not equal AOA as it currently stands. The AOA cannot advocate anything as it does not have anyone to advocate to. Management has all the cards. HK is what it is. CX will be here after we are all dead.

Not to prattle on too long...the AOA is painted into a corner.

Turnbull will not talk to Demery. Demery has just been re-elected. A goodly portion of the senior guys are out of here over the next 3-4 years. Many members of the AOA don't like the ban etc but believe they have no alternative but the AOA as an advocate but without anyone to advocate to.

In summary, it is a complex family squabble. The only way to bring some closure that returns some advocacy power to a pilot representative body is a public apology (hardly likely) to management. Who knows it may even lead to a review for the 49'ers plus plus.

For those wanting to join, make your own decision. The reality is HK isn't much of a place to raise a family these days but you will not be treated as a leper afterall most pilots are pretty decent sorts.

shortly

14th Aug 2002, 10:44

Nosegear, call me what you will. Sorry I disagree with your position on the AOA's actions. And I am trying to protect what I have before the part time union management get a completely new deal imposed on all of us. To suggest that there is no social life in Honkers because of the ban is ludicrous. There are many quite reasonably priced sporting and social clubs who don't care where you work let alone when you joined. There are professional bodies associated with aviation which will likewise not be bothered by such data. Within twelve months all will be forgiven and you will be welcomed into the AOA, or the AOA will be no more. I am calling it as I see it after a long time in this game. I feel great sympathy for the 49ers as I do for those many more gutted in 89. I don't want the 49ers to become 359ers.

?...

14th Aug 2002, 11:04

Like many others, I aspire to eventually fly in an airline. To me it is the pinnacle of one's aviation career (idealistic... maybe.) It is a simple desire that I have come to realise is more complicated than I could possibly imagine, having recently being employed. I value posts like this as it provides me with an insight into how the real world is. :)
I am still trying to grasp the ideals behind each side of this and many other disputes, including the 1989 problems, maybe I will never understand, but i hope that, unlike 1989, there will be a favourable outcome for all.
Finally, although I have read bits and pieces here and there about the 49ers and 1989, I still feel like I lack all the information. Could anyone please direct myself and others to a place where we can find detailed and informative facts about both disputes.
Cheers to all. :)

BanBreaker

14th Aug 2002, 14:21

Like most things in life there are two sides to the coin and it’s good to receive so much feed back on this topic, as it does in a way affect both the AOA members, CX pilots and the new joiners in their new job.

Since there is still a strong supply of people willing to join Cathay under the Ban and people are seemingly going to join regardless, what other alternatives are there to make the best outcome for everyone? There's no need to play havok with additional peoples careers.

Surely amongst the people on this forum we can come up with some constructive ways or suggestions for the AOA, that could help put an end to all this.

Like CRM, pool the resources and lets try an establish some positive alternatives for this whole sour situation.

Maybe there are some possible “outs” that no one has thought of as yet, even people in the AOA would like to see this ban abolished, if anyone has a better plan of attack lets hear it.

Positive feed back appreciated.

Just an other number

14th Aug 2002, 14:41

Going back a long way to titfers at the top of this page; he said -

'Remember too that alot of our Check+Trainers are avid union members and have lost close friends in the 49ers, can imagine what they will think"

A lot of them are not.

And you can be sure that the company will be very carefully watching the C&T results for new joiners...

This does not make me a CX supporter, or pro-AOA - just a realist.

Nomansland

14th Aug 2002, 15:27

Ansett is not the only casualty in the last year. Canada is not exactly ripe with aviation jobs after Canada 3000 went out of business. 550 pilots, of which maybe over 200 are working again finally. Air Canada may hire 60-80 before christmas. Westjet is a slow trickle. And then there is..... nope, that's it!:(
Always wanted to be at Cathay. Prospects are nil in Canada. Haven't worked in almost a year.
I have friends who were 49's. I am pro-union, always have been. I feel this ban bites itself in the ass by upgrading captains every day!
I will join given the opportunity. (I also support everything the union is trying to do, but that may be a moot point)

KaptinZZ

14th Aug 2002, 22:45

I look at this, from the outside, and I see many similarities between this situation and Australian aviation n 1989.

There are pilots in HK saying 'Don't come here' but at the same time accepting upgrades. I took that from a previous post, so if it's incorrect, don't bother reading any further.

In Oz in 1989, we had captains saying you'll be a $cab if you join an airline, but they were going off taking commands in far flung parts of the world, over local FO's who became bitter. But, and here's the rub, they were quite open in saying that they were only there till they could get back to Australia in their previous positions. History reveals that they're still waiting, but that's another story.

Now this could be categorized as hypocrisy.

I saw in a previous post that many C & T guys are union members, and the veiled threat was there that you wouldn't pass a check if you joined now.

These threats have all been made before down in Australia in 1989. I could see CX mgt sacking a checkie if he played a hard line on political grounds, and he'd deserve it. If he can't separate politics and a pilot's ability, he shouldn't be there in the first place.

What CX pilots should/must realize is that they can't draw people who wan to join the company into a brawl that just doesn't concern them, and was pre-existing.

King George V

15th Aug 2002, 01:21

Incomming!!!!!!

I'd go back to the fragrant harbour forum where at least you think you know what you are talking about ZZ.

FlexibleResponse

15th Aug 2002, 04:22

The recruiting ban at Cathay Pacific Airways remains in force and any person breaking it, including “BanBreaker”, will suffer the full consequences as detailed in the IFALPA letter. There is also the aspect of becoming a social leper in the cockpit and in the rather small expatriate Hong Kong community.

A Director of Cathay Pacific recently in a Radio Hong Kong interview was trying to trump-up the amount of Industrial Action that taking place as a justification for management’s continued refusal to talk to the HKAOA. He stated that the recruiting ban was having an effect and was stopping some good pilots from joining but adequate pilots were still joining.

The prospect of suffering at the hands of Check and Training pilot is a non-issue as the Check and Training personnel at Cathay Pacific are of the highest standards and personal integrity. Unfortunately, there are always the odd few that do allow political agenda to influence their judgment but those individuals are either already in management or by ingratiating themselves, hope to achieve such a position soonest.

As a measure of the influence of political and industrial factors in affecting the decision making capability of Cathay management, one needs to look no further than the decisions not to upgrade many Junior F/Os to F/Os and for not upgrading many F/Os to Captain despite these ladies and gentlemen having impeccable check and training records. Upgrades use to depend almost exclusively on performance on the final check. This has now changed. Manager Training Standards explained it like this in the “Crews News” magazine. We look at your training records and the actual check flight itself. We also look at any non-flying behavioural issues that have been communicated to you”. Sounds delightfully innocent, doesn’t it?

The good news is that the President of the AOA said that the time has now come to put up or shut up. He also said that the whole process would be over in one year, one way or the other. Action will be ramped up quickly over the next two months.

The Recruiting Ban is an international embarrassment to the management of Cathay Pacific and is putting them under enormous political and economic pressure. Good pilots are requested to continue observing the ban, so that a quick resolution can be attained.

KaptinZZ

15th Aug 2002, 04:35

KGV,

I don't think I've ever posted in that forum!

You must remember that PPRuNe is a forum for opinions as well as rumour. If you have difficulty with that concept, perhaps you shouldn't look here.

I STILL see parallels with the HK situation now and Australian aviation in 1989, and it's called hypocrisy, and an agenda being run by senior pilots to the detriment of junior (joining) pilots.

As for the post suggesting GOOD pilots should stop coming to CX -I don't know what to say. I presume he's suggesting that those who join are less than good. Hmmm. All those who are there and those who refuse to join whilst there is a ban on are guns, and those who defy the ban are duds.

Ever heard of logic??

FlexibleResponse

15th Aug 2002, 05:28

These are the words from the mouth of Cathay Pacific's Director Corporate Development, in an interview on RTHK.

Tool Time Two

15th Aug 2002, 09:53

Oh kiZZin old pal, I should remind you that if hypocrisy is involved now in CX, then in 1989 it was on the part of the Fat Man, his puppet the Bedroom Bandicoot, and the Dirty Digger, and the scabs they encouraged to be hypocritical, you, I assume, being one.:cool:

BanBreaker

15th Aug 2002, 14:09

Thank you for the insight FlexibleResponse.

We’ve all read the IFALPA letter and received all the relevant information in regards to the Ban and the consequences, as well as the intimidation that comes from a lot of these posts. There’s nothing here to dispute that. Even though you consider us as being “lesser beings”, I as many others do, still understand your plight and would like to see things resolved.

The idea of the pole shows that in these “uncertain times” people are going to join out of shear necessity rather than making the ideal choice. It’s a shame and not the most ideal situation to be in.

But considering the fact that internal progression is still occurring , the 49’ers are being supported financially and that the only true sacrifice is being asked of people outside the company , many will disrespect this unorthodox request due to the hypocrisy of its nature.

Please try and think of additional solutions and ways around this rather than employing school bully tactics the achieve the results you really want.

Just remember, you are fortunate to be where you are irrespective of the conditions and terms of your employment , it could quite easily be you on the other side of the fence with bills to pay and mouths to feed.

I don’t want this to be a slagging match , I would rather see it as a discussion to find alternative answers.

:confused:

KaptinZZ

15th Aug 2002, 23:58

TTT,

It was probably there as well, but it definitely existed where senior pilots were intimidating juniors into not returning to work, and then taking commands o'seas to the detriment of local pilots, and then telling all and sundry that it was only until they could return home to their previous positions.

That was hypocrisy, just as it is hypocrisy in CX now as some accept upgrades whilst 'encouraging' pilots chasing their first airline job not to join CX.

zone

16th Aug 2002, 00:09

Flexible Response

Could you enlighten us about 'Ramped up action'
Is this something to do with the courts?

Remember, we dont have access to CPrune and may miss a lot of the debate.

Ajax

16th Aug 2002, 00:13

Well heres my 2 cents worth :

1. I won't be updating my CV while the ban is still in effect, or alternatively until such time as IFALPA withdraws their support, or I consider the AOA has become so marginalized that it no longer matters. That's got nothing to do with my opinion of the politics, it's just that I have had few too many warnings from mates up there over the aggro from hard core unionists, I look at the poison that still spills over whenever '89 is mentioned on here, and I just can't be @rsed to get involved with it all to be honest.

2. When I do get my Cathay job, I won't be joining the AOA. I value the advocacy of a union, but there is ****** all point in joining a union who haven't even spoken to management in the last year, and just re elected a leader who management have said point blank they will refuse to negotiate with on any grounds. The main reason for joining a union is to exercise a bit of collective muscle at contract negotiation time after all, but I can't see how giving my money to a crowd that can't even go and speak to the people concerned, is going to help improve my lot.

3. I'd be more than happy to get involved with a new union, that wasn't so tainted from past bitterness and actually had a passing interest in improving the lot of the current batch of employees, instead of flogging a bunch of dead horses (49 of them to be precise ).

shortly

16th Aug 2002, 07:55

Ajax, a cruel but honest post. If I were you I would certainly update my cv. This 'dispute' has to come to a head soon. Management need to do nothing at all so the AOA have to take a step, very carefully I hope. When the dispute is over the rush for jobs will be enormous. Looks like, sadly, there are going to be plenty of desperate septics needing to pay mortgages and other bills pretty soon. The AOA is just about marginalised now. Their courses of action are severely hindered by the knowledge that about 650-1000 of the aircrew at the company will not follow them to oblivion. Be a little more sympathetic to the 49ers, loyal and true pilots martyred by union ineptitude. There but for etc.

tifters

17th Aug 2002, 02:59

Hey guys a good post so far, not too much personal s@#t.
Anyway, i would like to add on my previous posts.
One thing up here is that yes the recruitment ban doesnt get much support as like with me alot of ex G.A guys here know how you must feel about wanting the job here. Some of us didnt even know who IFALPA were. We did think it hypocritical to expect those who need the job to do the work for us especially when we had limited industrial action last year and alot of the Captains hardly raised a finger to help, but that was the effect of intimidation from the company. We also dont get the chance to knock back upgrades, we just get a letter in our mailbox that tells us when and what. I would guess that if you walked into the office to say no thanks it would be like handing in your resignation. As i have said before, industrial action up here is very difficult, the union have seeked advice from all over on methods, some are good and some arent(the ban), but big picture stuff is that we have to go along with it otherwise this company would roll us over and the little niceties that we have that make Hong Kong worth our while would be slowly degraded, and believe me they would do it!!!
So its not perfect.
My concern is that there are enuff hard liners, hence my reasons for not posting on CPRUNE these days, that would make life pretty uncomfortable for the new joiners and you need to be aware of this. The other thing is if we have a bit of a win this year with whatever we have planned, maybe even a few court cases going our way, believe me the fence sitters will jump well and truly back the unions way, and then the support for the union will get even stronger because that is what alot of people are waiting for, a few wins.
Good luck with your decisions anyway, remember there are enuff ex GA guys/girls here to still have you over for a BBQ but that is just a small part of it!!!

CallButton

17th Aug 2002, 12:55

We also dont get the chance to knock back upgrades, we just get a letter in our mailbox that tells us when and what. I would guess that if you walked into the office to say no thanks it would be like handing in your resignation.

A bit like a new hire knocking back a job offer I suppose. You are unemployed...

tifters

17th Aug 2002, 14:14

Callbutton...you can quote me all you like, i have made it clear that the recruitment ban is not a favorite up here and we are probably our worst enemies, however you are missing my point. It being that there are alot of hard liners here who will make things difficult for the new joiners, eg the list of new joiners sent around so as that they shouldnt get jumpseats when requested to get home etc etc. I am just wanting to let people know that these things are happening and may get worst if we start actually doing some good with our actions, something everyone should consider.
Im not here to scare off or to encourage, just to inform.

shortly

17th Aug 2002, 15:55

Good idea that knocking back new joiners from jump seats for occasional trips home. Immediately identifies hard liners and will probably be a privilege taken away from Captains soon, jump seats being allocated by crew control.

CallButton

18th Aug 2002, 13:02

Not giving you a hard time Tifters I appreciate your balanced posting. I was just picking up and emphasising a point.:)

tifters

19th Aug 2002, 15:43

No worries CB.
This whole thing has turned into a mess and people trying to get into CX are the ones losing out. I feel that anyone who says we are hypocrits are absolutely correct as far as the ban goes. Alot of our senior guys will stick their hands up and vote for action but then do nothing, this has been a thorn in our sides, i just hope that we can finish it soon either way and drop this ban ASAP!!
Good luck all!!!

Richard Kranium

20th Aug 2002, 07:02

Spot on tifters....you are a person that thinks for himself...how on earth can you ask others to fight your battles, as the new hires have nothing to do with this..... if the CX guys belive the company is so bad... then resign...as I bet during the interview process the now militants would have projected the goody-two-shoes image...and now want to deny others a career..... :(

Munchkin

5th Sep 2002, 10:55

Munchkin to shorty shortly.

You and other trecherous minded management quislings are more stupid than i thought.
By posing as pilots on here and trying to persuede new recruits to join a company in the middle of an act of self destruction that is your handywork, will only prolong this miserable dispute.
The recruits won't even have a contract and they can be fired for 'no particular reason' - Your official view to the press.
New recruits may be desperate to work but they are not crazy.

THERE IS NO CAREER HERE IN CATHAY PACIFIC UNTIL THIS DISPUTE IS RESOLVED, A COS SIGNED AND THE 49ERS REINSTATED

Well you trecherous little man i am here to tell you that your poison will not work.
You are going to court.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Potential new recruits hear me:

Use your own moral judgement about this situation and ignore the minor managers writing here feeding you poison. Their own skins are at stake here and quite a few will be fired when CX have to deal and deal they will. That is all they care about - themselves.
The current CX pilots, even the non union members feel strongly; they want the reinstatement of the 49ers forthwith, a career structure, a negotiated COS, to incude rostering and safety issues. They do not exist at the moment. We will always require representation, that much is clear.
Our profession is in the middle of a beancounter onslaught fuelled by personal hatred, profits and management bonuses. It is stretching over many airlines within the One World group. Basically they are trying to crush your pilot profession.
The straw pole on this site is meaningless. This whole Fragrant Harbour site is a managment vehicle for their lies and spin. They, together with their union busting company Freehills have failed spectacularly to make an impression on Cprune the private forum and have subsequently given up.
By all means apply and be interviewed if you really cannot see an alternative, but DO NOT accept a start date no matter what the pressure in interview, until this is resolved.
Remember that it's your profession and try to think long term.

Capt Claret

6th Sep 2002, 01:23

Munchkin,

It is my understanding that since the 49ers were fired, pilots within CX have accepted upgrades (S/O to F/O, F/O to Command) to fill some, if not all the vacancies. I also understand that CX has a short term need of some 200 pilots.

How do you explain existing crew accepting upgrades whilst at the same time trying to exert pressure on potential new hires not to accept a job, to support a cause you folk don't seem to be making sacrifices for yourselves?

TIMMEEEE

11th Sep 2002, 00:19

Was in HK last week and caught up with a few friends for a brew or seven.

The one thing that surprised me was that when this topic was brought up seemingly good natured people started to get agro and displayed hostility towards these people.

I dont care either way as its nothing to do with me but I believe those accepting jobs may expect a little antagonism towards them.

kellykelpie

20th Jan 2003, 08:54

Munchkin
Your issues seem petty compared to a fellow who gets a phone call from CX for a 747 course starting in March, on three times the salary they are on now. Maybe you should get someone else to hear you?

qnc3guy

22nd Jan 2003, 07:14

Very difficult issue.

Sadly when one needs to work and pay the bills there are not too many options that one can afford to decline.

Are there any flight deck positions being offerred by any of the pilot unions? Do any of the pilot unions actually hire pilots? I have always been under the impression that one needs to apply with the people representing the airline, not the people representing the pilots.

So it might be best if we pilots take a more realistic view of things and not but the burden on unemployed pilots to champion the cause of pilots already employed. I do not think that any of the people who have accepted positions are really the cause of the issues at hand. The focus needs to be on how one can effect change in a way that will work. Does not appear that this course of action is getting the desired results.

Perhaps there is a better way to deal with this issue. I am certain that in time cooler heads will prevail. A battle is more decisively won if the forces are unified.

Best of luck to all of you guys.

Dr._Strangelove

28th Jan 2003, 04:35

Hi all.

I'm new in this forum. I have just read the entire thread from scratch. My situation is this: I'm presently working for a Scandinavian company, but has been layed off from May 2003. I have just been invited to an interview with CX. I intend to go to the interview and what might follow. Meanwhile I'll think about what to do, should CX offer me a job. I don't know the story about the 49'ers other than what I have been able to pick up here. So far I sympathise with them, but I can't, for the love of god, not see how I can help them by staying away from CX. In my humple opinion I can help them more from inside the company as a member of the AOA (if that's an option). I would gladly pay my contribution to the 49'ers like the rest of the AOA-members.

Rumor has it here in Scandinavia, that there has been hired a new CEO. Is that true? If so: Does anyone know his stand on the recruitment-ban?

I would of course prefer to join CX when there's no more problems, but I don't see how other people (49'ers and AOA) are supposed to be feeling better just because my life is miserable. I would hate to end as a pilot who have to write 0/0 in the field where I was supposed to write how many hours I have flown in the last 6/12 months.

I hope to get some constructive answers to this reply and also some specifics on the reason for the whole 49'ers problem. I want to understand it as I'm sure it will help me to make up my mind. That is if there's still anyone out there that remembers what this is all about..

Good luck to you all.

P.S. "If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough". :D

Woomera

12th Feb 2003, 13:12

Fascinating, over 10,300 views, 53 posts and over 300 votes.

Col. Walter E. Kurtz

4th Mar 2003, 21:29

At the end of the day, pilots are their own worst enemy.

Always in the self interest, never in the interest of the 'fraternity'. A shameful situation.

Pilots already employed accepting upgrades - new starters wanting to start when their are disputes going on

It is unfair to expect new hires to accept the burden in order to gain better conditions for a company they are about to join, whilst pilots in the company, fully aware of the situation and basis of the dispute, continue accepting upgrades. How hypocritical!!

Pilots are always the first to complain that management is trying to take the mickey out of them.

Management of airlines the world over know what a bunch of self centred, self-loving ba$tards pilots are, and how willing they are to step on another pilots head and scratch out each others' eyes (in a roundabout and sneaky way) to get that job or be in a position to 'feed the young ones'. Feeding the young ones is a noble cause, but hey, you wanna a medal? The rest of us have to do the same, but thanks to these cop-outs, we have less to feed them with, and less time to be there to do the feeding.

The news is, until pilots are a unified group, wages and conditions WILL be eroded.

New starters and 'upgradees' (especially) deserve the full ire of union members, for weakening the pilot position. They are willing to accept all the benefits and conditions hard fought and won by union members, but refuse to carry any of the burden and sacrifice.

Now back to basics:

If all the pilots acted as a unified group then management would have to deal honestly with them. The risk to the company would be too great to not to. If they acted honestly, so should the union. There is a great inter-dependency that goes on in business and industrial relations, that is often lost in the worker vs employer (who is acting in the interest of the shareholders) battle.

There has to be some kind of comprimise between old/new members and the health of the company. Compromise is something that has been forgotten in this world of my profits/my conditions/my struggle.

That is: No company - no jobs. No employees - no company. No good employees (incl management) - no profits. No profits - No shareholders. No sharholders - no company etc etc and around it goes.

The goal should be to work together for the benefit of all - what benefits us, should benefit others, cause at the end of the day, we all need each other.

There endeth the sermon................................................what was that you just said, Willard??

foxtel

12th Mar 2003, 02:43

I have just joined CX. Have many friends here all who joined before the ban and some after. To date, I have not had 1 negative comment towards me and either have the guys I know.
None of us are anti union, but as it has been said so many times, why should we make the ultimate sacrifice while the militent union guys take upgrades. I tried to email the unions during my interview process and had no reply. I spoke to as many poeple as possible, even Captains who have been in the company for many years, not one person said not to join. I am also not that blind to think that there is no need for a union, but why would they take there problems with the company out on us. If I do get some nasty comments it will be disapointing but at the end of the day this is what I have been aiming for my whole carreer.

Checkerboard

13th Mar 2003, 10:05

Well said Foxtel! It is interesting to hear the opion of a new recruit and how they have been treated so far.
I for one will not turn down an offer if I was to get one while seniors take upgrades. Don"t ask the people who dream of an airline job to do your dirty work while u sit smuggly.

robair

14th Mar 2003, 01:19

ME
:) :O :p :ok: :D

flyingkiwi

15th Mar 2003, 06:43

I too have joined post ban and to date have had very little problems to the credit of the fine guys i have flown with.

What the people in the AOA have to realise is they are not asking us to delay a start date, it is beyond that we have tried. I put my start off till i got the start now or never speach. So dont give us the put if off line.. it is wrong! FACT! I tried. You are now saying to these new guys "give up your dream careers" but im going to take that command slot or f/o slot.

I dont expect a justification for this as i have not heard one in the 21months it has been going on.

I also believe in the place of assosiations but feel the AOA is currently commiting suicide, the top people are too proud to admit the ban has not had the affect they were after, and by continuing it are losing a valuable percentage of the pilot group, not just new joiners but those leaving the AOA in droves.

boofta

19th Mar 2003, 18:19

About 60% of CX pilots are now full fare AOA members.That means fully paid up. Howls of protest! Get into it.
When the ban is lifted, which is the only way there will ever be a
resolution to this mess- all the recent joiners will have to be asked to join the AOA.
So join up folks, thats the only possible scenario, the only other
possibility is that the AOA will continue slowly destroying itself.
Either way, all the recent joiners will be invited into the AOA.
Its a no brainer, all recent joiners will be invited in otherwise the
AOA will be even more irrelevent. Sorry not management, just fed
up.
Don't believe the courts will stop the rot, all it achieves is more
conflict and distance between the parties. The courts may get some compensation for individual 49'er's but the overall scheme
will prevail. If QF pilots can't stop a B scale operation with 100%
membership what hope for the AOA . Get real, drop the ban, get
talking, and try to take the rhetoric back to a mature level, things
were better in colonial days.