What is the story at OATS [Archive]

Harves

7th Mar 2001, 17:00

I am in a similar situation, due to start April at OATS and have heard exactly the same.

I was at Aviation House yesterday and was having a chat with an EasyJet F/O who described his experience of Oxford as being a BA sausage factory.

I also had a chat with my PPL Instructor, who said he walked out on the initial meeting at OATS due to the attitude he received as self sponsored. His friend went ahead and went to OATS and switched schools half way through, specifically because he was not getting access to the aircraft.

I phoned OATS and just asked them straight. Now I would not expect the truth, but they did say that they were well aware of these rumours and strongly deny them. Make up your own mind on that.

This said, I decided to check a couple more integrated courses and have been extremely impressed with one. If you can get ready in time for April, British Aerospace have spaces available on their course. They are no longer in Prestwick but are in Jerez Spain.

They are offering the course for the same price as Oxford but include food and accomodation which looks pretty good and has excellent on site facilities.

They offer a few less hours, but I have heard nothing bad. That said, if anyone has, then please do tell.

Check out their site at www.baesystems.es (http://www.baesystems.es)

Good luck, may see you there.

GJB

7th Mar 2001, 17:09

HJ

First and foremost, I would not sign any agreement or contract with any organisation until you have it reviewed by a good solicitor. If you are about to commit to spending such a vast sum of money, you must ensure that there are 'get out clauses' in the event that wish to terminate the contract, for any reason whatsoever.

If you are unhappy with any part of your progress or training - tell them! Do not accept second best. Your money is as good as BA's and you deserve the same level of service.

Let us know how you get on and good luck with the course.

Pandora

7th Mar 2001, 18:19

I was a BA cadet at Oxford and cannot deny that there did seem to be a certain bias....towards BM cadets who were late finishing thier course and their company was throwing a wobbly because they had already missed the start of their type rating course. The truth is that every single person I have ever met who went to Oxford regardless of where their money came from has finished the course late. How late you will finish will depend on your perserverance (or, as they like to phrase it, pushyness) and willingness to get up early in the morning.
I know several self sponsored students at OATS who finished ahead of airline cadets who started on the same day. As with all things in life, OATS is what you make it. If you chose Oxford, the trick is to be there at 6am to pick up the a/c and instructors when other people forgot to set their alarm clock or spent to long in the pub. Even if your booked slot is for 3pm be there at 6am. It worked for a lot of people and the others you see complaining are possibly the ones who stayed in bed too long.
PS everyone I know who finished the course within 1 month of the expected finish date is now working for an airline.

7th Mar 2001, 18:49

Pandora has put it in a nutshell really. You do have to be pushy to maintain the programme within the published time. Also, during the solo part of the flying course, you can make great progress very quickly if you use A/C in the evening and at the weekend. You do see them sitting idle at these times! Pre PT4 flying (the final S/Eng phase) can also be quick with a good bit of organisation, and showing early in the morning. The hardest part of the course to organise in this way is the flying up to PT1 where you are with an instructor for most sorties.
Unless things have changed considerabley, it is the Multi/IR phase of the course that is a complete pain, as far as getting hold of A/C goes...and by that time you will be gagging to get the hell out of the place!
Still, you will enjoy it.
Good luck.

porridge

7th Mar 2001, 23:43

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As an OATS instructor I would have to admit that there was, under the previous owners of the company, a tendency to pander to their airline clients. I have seen it and I know personally how the Self Sponsored Student has been pushed off the program in favour of the airline cadet who is late due to the greed and callousness of an investor. One who was out to make a quick buck on the sale of the company at the highest price had taken on more work than they could cope with to push up the perceived value. Rumours abound as to how much certain departed/departing directors scored on the result of this sale to BBA and I will say no more on this.
Many of us were so disillusioned by the attitude of the previous management of the company to it's staff that many of our best colleagues have left or are in the process of leaving. Some departed under such unfavourable circumstances in a manner that when they took the company to task were able to benefit considerably in an industrial dispute settlement. So it is no wonder that the self-sponsored individual was also treated in an unfortunate manner as a means to an end.
Fortunately BBA has a corporate culture of customer service as is epitomised by it 'Signature' division which is probably the largest and most successful FBO organisation serving the GA and Corporate Aviation sectors, predominately in the US and now here in the UK.
The style of the new owners at OATS is becoming rapidly apparent and you will see a significant shift in culture and emphasis on every level. Whereas the airline client bring kudos, it is the self-sponsored who bring in the profit and the company, under it's new management, has recognised this and is rapidly moving to address this sector of the market in a way that benefits the value of the client base.
The new changes at OATS are certainly not popular amongst many of the old guard, but change we must and I know many of us will be invigorated by this departure from the greed and profit orientation that has pervaded the company for the past few years.
Mentoring and customer care will become the name of the game and I can assure everyone there is a very personable, but highly determined CEO, who will ensure this change takes place.
No I am not a managerial/marketing hack at OATS producing yet more spin, I'm just a line instructor, who was ready to depart along with everyone else, but can now see a significant change in the way business is going to be done and there are many of us who hope that we can change this culture in a way that we can become a leader in this field.
Let's see how the comments change in a year or two's time, I feel quietly confident we should be able to make the experience and treatment that people receive (and quite rightly deserve). Hopefully one that they will remember with the fondness and regard that they remember their sojourn at OATS as the best 'alma mater' in the business. The 'jury still out' as they say, but I hope those hopefuls out there who make the decision to come to OATS will be pleasantly surprised. I for one, as there are many of my like minded colleague, will try to make it so.

Mister Geezer

8th Mar 2001, 00:36

Hi everyone

I am starting at OATS in a few weeks. I am self-sponsored and others who have already been through OATS, have already told me that airline cadets do get preferential treatment.

It is good to hear from the 'inside' that staff are feeling that the situation and the atmosphere is better. To be honest I didn't know that Instructors were getting so bothered and annoyed about the situation. I didn't realise that there was so much agro and tension about the previous management and their ethos. At least things are not getting worse.

To be honest, at some point I would probably be surprised if I was not bumped off a slot in preference for an airline cadet be it Gulf Air, BA, BM or whoever.

However maybe this view that I have is one that should belong in the past????

Anyway, I look forward to meeting you all in due course

All the best!

MG

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It's a limited RAS as you approach my dark area.......

eagerbeaver

8th Mar 2001, 01:43

All i am going to say is that it is true in some respects but OATS is what you make of it. I didn't get the greatest amount of help and support that marketing said but i digged deep and worked hard for everything i have now and i am a better and stronger person for it.
The instructors are of the highest quality and do care about the students.
To all those OATS knockers if you concentrated your energies more positively then maybe things might not have been quite as bad as you thought?
To all those about to start go for it, you don't something for nothing without hard work especially an ATPL.
Good Luck old boy see you real soon in operations.
:)

EggBeta

8th Mar 2001, 04:57

Is there anyone out there who has done the BAE systems flight training course. I would be extremely interested in your perspective?

batty

8th Mar 2001, 12:24

I left OATS 5 weeks ago after 15 months. I did not ever have any problem with loosing slots to the sponsored students. I know that it has gone on in the past but if you take a grip of your own training and push yourself it is not a problem!
One MAJOR thing that OATS has done for me is they have been instrumental in getting me a job! I left 5 weeks ago and have been offered a jet job, what more can I say.

8th Mar 2001, 16:16

Thank You Everyone,

Just a word of thanks to all that have sent in a reply to my posting. It was great to get the view of so many, ie students and instructors alike. I hope the situation improves even more as my time to starting at OATS gets closer.

Thanks Again
HJ

Barney Stubble

8th Mar 2001, 18:41

Well done Batty!

Out of curiosity, do you keep in touch with the other self sponsored guys at OATS, there weren't many of you, how are they getting on with job hunting?

Salmon

8th Mar 2001, 20:06

If you want Ab-initio....

Go to Western Michigan instead. Buy a ridiculously big car fly beautiful new aeroplanes and have an amazing time. No bias, no delays and get a JAA ATPL (frozen).

and the chap said

8th Mar 2001, 21:10

Good point from Salmon! However, doesn’t Oxford send students to West Michigan anyway? If this is the case, why doesn't everyone (leaning towards Oxford) just apply directly to WMU and do the entire course over there?

I hear a lot on the forum about wannabes choosing between Oxford and Jerez, and other highly reputable schools (too many to mention), but Michigan hardly ever seems to come into it - unless connected to the Oxford ab-initio course. Why is that? Surely it must be cheaper and have better weather over that side of the big drink!

...Can anyone shed some light?

Regards,
ATCS

[This message has been edited by and the chap said (edited 08 March 2001).]

porridge

8th Mar 2001, 22:48

and the chap said
It's actually nearly the other way round. WMU send their students to finish at OATS Gloucester.

rolling circle

9th Mar 2001, 03:09

It is difficult to believe that porridge and I work at the same school, so different is his view from mine. Whilst I recognise the period he describes when many of the most highly qualified and experienced instructors voted with their feet against the incompetent management then in place, I do not recognise the present day nirvana that he describes.

The cold reality of today is that those few remaining instructors of any worth are steadily being marginalised and, in some cases, dismissed as BBA move to an even more profit driven culture. We, the real line instructors, have been told, in no uncertain terms, that the thrust of the company is now totally commercial - the student, it seems, is to become simply a source of revenue to be discarded once bled dry. Promotion within the school now depends not upon instructional ability but upon 'management' ability. It has to be said that BBA's perception of management ability seems to be at odds with that of most of the flight training industry in depending, almost exclusively, upon the brownness of ones nose (or any other part of the anatomy, I suppose).

Even the relatively new, and almost universally unrecognised, Head of Training is to be sidelined according to the latest management missive. The Flight Managers (CFI's) are, we understand, now going to by-pass the HT and report directly to the grandly named, and exclusively commercially orientated, General Manager Integrated Flight Training (who he - Ed??).

Couple this profit driven organisation with the fact that there is more guaranteed profit in airline sponsored training than there will ever be in self-sponsored training and then choose whether or not to believe the pseudo-management yuckspeak peddled by porridge.

Incidentally, whilst it is true that porridge is not (yet) "a managerial/marketing hack at OATS producing yet more spin", many of us are resigned to the unpalatable fact that it is only a matter of time...........Beware!!

geardown3greens

9th Mar 2001, 03:58

Yes, I have heard the rumours as well, that OATS airline 'space' cadets (!) do get preference over self sponsored students. Maybe it would be better to go to Gloucestershire Airport and use the aircraft there, with other self sponsored students and no airline cadets around. Besides, whats in a names? OATS seems to be fighting each other at the moment. The best school in the country for ATPL goundchool is ATA in Coventry. Why not do your PPL anywhere, go to someone like ATA or PPSC and then go to Gloucestershire for the CPL/IR Upgrade. Or, as has been said, if you have the money, go to Jerez. I have e-mailed a friend of mine who works at mrketing at OATS, including the conflicting replies from the instructors. I await the official reply!!!!

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Pigs CAN fly!

TheNavigator

9th Mar 2001, 04:55

Quite worring comments!

This might be silly but what is the proportion of self sponsored and airline sponsored students?

tailscrape

9th Mar 2001, 07:59

I never got pushed about in favour of sponsored students.Ever.

Finished on time due to a bit of weekend flying and extra effort.

A bit lazy when I left,waiting for the promised interview with one company...which i am still waiting for. Except I won't be going.

Like Batty, also in a jet now. But it had nothing to do with OATS.

Make the best of your time there. OATS is different for everyone. Just enjoy it and shape your own destiny and timescales when you are there.

batty

9th Mar 2001, 12:15

Well said tailscrape, maybe the instructors have something to moan about, maybe not! In any organisation there will always be some bad feeling no matter how good it is.
At the end of the day this discussion is about if OATS a good school for STUDENTS,especially self sponsored ones. In my humble opinion it is and it is well recognised by the airlines as being the best in Europe.
You do need to take a grip of your training there to ensure you get the best continuity and not get pushed into flying when its not in your best interest to. But surly one of the things you have to learn in this job is to make decissions.

Harves

9th Mar 2001, 13:50

Well my fellow self sponsored wannabes indeed all wannabes....confused..cause I am.

For thirteen years, I have been trying to get through my Class 1 and now I have finally done it, I have no chance of sponsorship shame but no shame (if you know what I mean). During these 13 years, I had always presumed it would be OATS for me

What it does mean though is that I am about to invest half the value of my house of which I only own 10% as it is. In other words, we should get it right.

A lot of people seem to be saying it is what you make of it and the effort you put in and how you need to steer it here there and everywhere. Well, in life that is often the way that it is and there is nothing wrong with that. Indeed it can often make you a better person. To me though there are some pretty extreme circumstances at work here which demand clear answers.

Most of us want to fly for a living because it is a passion and we are willing to put a lot on the line to achieve it. We are entering an extremely competitive market place and it can not be denied that the choice of school can undoubtedly effect your chances of employment. If only life was as fair as your hard work and effort always being rewarded fairly. You then have the huge cost in such a short time,the highly competitive market place. I could go on, but most of you know what I am saying. This means that in my view, if even the slightest element of what I hear is true about OATS, it is not acceptable. Where ever I go, I will expect equal billing in all ways combined with a recognition that I am a paying customer. If anything, I will expect a lot more from OATS than anywhere else. I am paying a lot more.

Just when I think I have made a decision, I change my mind. Until yesterday, I had made my mind up and accepted a place on the BAE course, then I read Porridge's comments. In a way I had been looking for the reason to go to OATS and this went a long way towards it. Now, rolling circle has made things extremely interesting.

I get the feeling that I will end up making my final decision based on the fact that no one (up to now) has had anything bad to say about Jerez. Not the way I want to go about it.

So finally, Geardown 3 Greens, I turn to you and your inside info (hopefully unbiassed). Please please share all and help to put us out of our misery.

Incidentially, I received a mail from someone 3 months into the BAE course. He is loving it and says that the BA Oxford students who go over there at the end of their course say how fantastic the accomodation and food is. Before anyone says anything, I know that I should never consider basing my decision on that and of course I never would, but when so little is clear, you grab at what is. It is clear that I will be saving about £7-8K going BAE and have nicer surroundings. Please tell me otherwise if anyone can!!!

low flyer

9th Mar 2001, 19:40

Unless BAe has changed considerably since its Prestwick days, you'll find that airline cadets get just as much preferential treatment there as anywhere else. It's hardly surprising since if the school can turn out the cadets in the stated time (or less), then there's the chance of repeat business. No self-sponsored student is ever going to do the course again, so it doesn't matter so much if they happen to be a bit hacked off.

As for the comment that even of your flight is booked for 3pm, turn up at 6am. And do what? Hang around until you're so knackered you ain't going to learn anything. If the school is properly organised, a 3pm flight should be a 3pm flight, allowing you to plan your day, and your sleep around it.

The plain truth is that any school will have drawbacks. What is great for one person will be bad for another. There will always be a certain lottery in what instructor you get anyway - some are bad, most are good.

One warning about Jerez - and it's nothing to do with the school. It's a long way away. A full ATPL course can be very demanding. I found the chance to escape the clautrophobic atmosphere at weekends and get home to friends and family was a life saver.

Personally, I'd go along with the upgrade route. That way you pay your money out in smaller chunks, so you have less invested in any one school. If you want a big name like OATS on your CV, do the IR there.

You're going to spend silly money on this career before you ever see a penny back in wages. I certainly wouldn't sign for any course until I had spent a decent amount of time at the school, and chatted to staff and current students. It could save you a fortune in the long run.

Just some thoughts. Good luck wherever you go, and don't forget that flying's supposed to be fun.

Flypuppy

9th Mar 2001, 19:57

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">No self-sponsored student is ever going to do the course again, so it doesn't matter so much if they happen to be a bit hacked off.</font>

I think this thread might just be proving that idea wrong. Flying schools will have to consider where their priorities lie. Of course airlines provide repeat business, but word of mouth (internet included) also generates repeat business - or not as the case may be.

Self sponsored students have on balance potentially more to lose. They have invested their, or somone elses life savings into the project and if they feel they are getting less than equal treatment they will find somewhere else to spend their money. If they feel they got a raw deal into the bargain I am sure they will want to tell their friends about it, who will tell their friends, who will tell their friends.......

[This message has been edited by Flypuppy (edited 09 March 2001).]

Harves

9th Mar 2001, 20:50

Low Flyer,

I do take on board some of what you said. This can be how life is, but would have to say that I agree wholeheartedly with Flypuppy.

As I said in my previous posting in this thread, our money is as good as anyones and I, as many other people on this site, are basing a large amount on comments received on this site. Obviously, first hand comments are more valuable but then that can lead to a bias admitedly. But as Flypuppy points out, the internet and word of mouth is a strong force. I will not stand for second best in terms of attitude towards me and my money.

I am not saying that this is going to be the case of any school. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, but you have only got to look through the archives to see that this stirs some strong feelings. With profit margins and competition in business these days, private clients could easily be the make or break of flying schools sooner or later.

By the way I am told that BAE is a very different school to its Prestwick days.

Wee Weasley Welshman

10th Mar 2001, 23:42

Low Flyer. You say that airline sponsored students got priority in flying training at Jerez.

As a very recently departed Jerez instructor I can only say this - balderdash. Each instructor has 2 students per day. The instructor HIMSELF decides the program for the flying day and prioritises his students as he sees fit. NEVER did management tell me or any other flying instructor to push a sponsored student at the expense of a self sponsored one. IF they had they would have got a short and rather rude reply from me and my colleagues. I was a self sponsored student but 19 months ago - as are all instructors.

If anything the instructors at Jerez work harder for the self sponsored guys than for the airline cadets. I know I did. Airline Bloggs doesn't care if he saves 5 minutes on a 90minute sortie. Self Sponsored Bloggs cares a hell of a lot. You can work the system to Self Sponsored Bloggs benefit in many subtle but important ways.

I will tell you what does happen though and its common at most large colleges. Towards the end of trainig the Airline course may as a block be moved ahead of a self sponsored course so that they finish on time. This is simply because they have a fixed appointment with a type rating course and they CANNOT miss it. For the average self sponsored guy it does not matter if his whole course are re-sheduled back a fortnight with 3 months notice. He had no job to go to and the extra time allows more prep work for the IR and any exam re-sits. If the college delays the graduation date then the cost of accom and food is covered at the colleges expense.

This is a reasonable way of doing things in the real world.

A total positive aspect of mixed sponsored / non-sponsored training for the non-sponsored guys is that should a sponsoring airline need extra recruits OR replacements for chopped cadets then the very first thing they do is speak to the CFI to see if there are any self sponsored students at the college (following exactly the same course as their cadets remember) who meets/exceeds the standards of the airline cadets. Hey presto Bloggs pick up an airline sponsorship part way through training or perhaps a job offer on graduation.

So there you go.

Good luck,

WWW

Harves

12th Mar 2001, 12:48

Thanks again WWW, that's sealed it for me. Off to Jerez in April.

Talk soon!!!

Capt Wannabe

12th Mar 2001, 13:10

Well, I have to agree that Sponsored Cadets do not get special treatment. My course which is mainly airline cadets has been delayed by a couple of months, and it doesn´t bother me at all.

WWW, I must say I find your last paragraph very interesting :)

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CW

BillyFish2

12th Mar 2001, 15:47

I was trying to decide on WMU or OATS.
Now BAE are looking good.
Anyone got good/bad/indifferent commments on WMU?
Unrelated subject, but any reasons out there for a 39 year-old not to start a full ab-initio course?

PPO

12th Mar 2001, 17:21

With regards to OATS and the Multi/IR element of course where it appears the resourcing gets a little bit difficult…

How often am I likely to fly (daily, monthly!)?
When I’m ready to start the Multi/IR phase, will I have a long wait before I can proceed due to backlogs?
Is it up to the student to organise instructor and aircraft ?

I have asked OATS but would be interested in how scheduling works in reality.

Many thanks

kalik

12th Mar 2001, 20:50

rolling circle ,

You have previously denied being connected to OATS in any way other than having a relative who was training there .

Unlike you to be careless with detail !

Harves

12th Mar 2001, 20:58

Is it only me, or does anyone else wonder why OATS manages to stir such debate. Is it jealousy of success in some quarters, or is it no smoke without fire.

This is a hard enough decision as it is with the amount of money we will potentially blow and placing our aspirations on the line with said organisations.

Some hard facts would be good such as pass rates, time schedules and student success in the market place.

Clouded Yellow

12th Mar 2001, 21:14

Harves......

I am also looking at BAE Jerez in April, perhaps you could email me ?

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GJB

12th Mar 2001, 21:26

Have to say, I am tempted to go to Jerez - all inclusive cost makes life much simpler.

All you need to worry about are beer tokens http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

Harves

12th Mar 2001, 22:13

Clouded Yellow and GJB, got to shoot now, but let's talk tomorow. I'll drop you an e-mail Clouded and we'll go from there.

By the way, I wonder if HJ is any the wiser after this string!!!!

rolling circle

13th Mar 2001, 01:00

kalik - You are quite right, I did once make a futile and ill-considered attempt to distance myself from any connection with OAT. How very sad of you to have remembered. Your contention is, I assume, that this lapse invalidates my recent exposure of the School's recent lurch towards profit at the expense of professionalism. Nice try - No cigar.

Incidentally, I was listening to Radio 4 on the way home this evening and heard the phrase "....spending all its time today sorting out the cock-ups it made yesterday" - what a stunningly insightful description of OAT management! (Pity it was being applied to the idiot Blair and his cronies.)

Harves

13th Mar 2001, 15:48

GJB - have e-mailed Clouded, so would be interested in how your decision making is coming along aswell. Beer is a major consideration as is money - but any other feedback.

We gat a lot of the OATS people arranging travel, living and get togethers. Us potential BAE people should do the same, even meet up before we go.

Any other possible BAE people or OATS people who want to know more abot BAE or can tell us BAE people why it should be OATS, then drop us a posting.

By the way sorry HJ, maybe I should have started a new thread, but I hope that this will assist you with our common question.

Wee Weasley Welshman

13th Mar 2001, 23:42

Capt Wannabee - Carl O'Neil was the example I had in mind; he was offered Aer Lingus on the basis of CFI recommendation - it only didn't work out due to a sudden influx of type rated pilots in Ireland following the collapse of an indegenious airline.

BA at their recent talk to students said that they took half a dozen self sponsored from OATS in the past year as they were doing as well as their avergae sponsored guys + passed subsequent interview...

Cheers,

WWW

cloudpuncher

14th Mar 2001, 01:37

Taking the decision to go it alone along the self-sponsored route is perhaps the most difficult decision I have had to make. To make matters worse is the added confusion as to where to invest my hard earned dosh. But I believe, hand on heart, that when I start at OATS in May I will have made the right decision. Rumours have always been around that airlines are given preferential treatment, they might, but only if you let them. I am not going to stand by and watch myself get pushed of the board for some airline brown noser; it is my frimly held belief that whatever school you decide to go to, your fate is in your own hands and that you will be helped if you help yourself. It seems to me that the type of people that do not succeed on the perilous road of self-sponsorship are those for who money is not a problem, the type of people who can afford to live in Oxford for an extra couple of monthes. Therefore if the instructors can get away with pushing someone of the flying board, they will, particularily if the place is given up for someone who is more eager to be there!!!!! this will be the same for whichever course you choose be it BAe or OATS.

ironically I made my decision to go to OATS on the basis of the amount of airlines they do work with! At the end of the day it is a dog eat dog world and you have to give yourslf the best possible chances, something that OATS can offer those willing to get off their backside and fight for!!!!!!!!

Pandora

14th Mar 2001, 14:13

Slightly off topic but I have been reading this thread with interest as an ex-OATS airline cadet, and am a bit concerned at the attitude of certain contributers who have yet to take up a place at a flying school.

Calling potential coursemates 'space cadets' or 'airline brown nosers' is hardly good CRM, is it? While noone would put down the majority of self sponsored students hard work and determination, remember that ALL airline cadets have had to work hard to get on the scheme, and their training has not been handed to them on a plate. Also it is often an uncomfortable feeling for them to see their name move up the board in favour of their best friend's because their sponsor is getting stroppy. (trust me on this one).
Anyway, I refer to my previous comment on this thread. Whoever is paying your bill, get up, stop whingeing and make the most of your best opportunity to get a job.

BillyFish2

14th Mar 2001, 15:02

Wee Weasley Welshman,

I think next year I might be going through what Harves is going through now: BAE or OATS? In fact I'm still very interested in WMU having recently talked to one of their instructors. I think the 737 sim may have been influential. Anyway, now I've got a few questions for you:

1. Did you go ab-initio to BAE?
2. If so, did they offer you an instructors role following the completed course?
3. How many instructors ratings did they require for this? I would be very interested in instructing for a while. Having taught electronics many years ago, I found teaching gave one an even better grasp of the subject matter. Plus as an instructor you must have clocked up a lot of valuable PIC hours.
4. Difficult one this - told my girlfriend about BAE in Jerez. I think the words 'south of Spain' as part of the description has made her want to take a year off and come with me which would be great but is it practical? Obviously she would have to live off campus but is the idea practical in the first place? Would the studying and flying regime be too intense to entertain such niceties as a relationship?
5. I think you mentioned you started the professional flying in your 30's (could be wrong on this - I only discovered the Pprune forum on Sunday and have spent about 10 hours total reading different threads since then, so it's hard to remember who has done what at this stage). I'll be 40 when I start ab-initio. I've got a S.A. PPL (100 hours logged) from 2 years ago clocked in Cape Town. I don't mind starting from scratch as I'm as rusty as hell since I got back to Ireland where I had to give up the jolly's due to weather, cost and bloody
intransigent IAA (Irish Aviation Authority) rules. Would you discourage me? Obviously I'd love to fly a 737 but I'd be very happy in a regional and no mistake.

WWW, if you get time to answer all this you may save me a lot of time and soul searching.

Thanks.

Harves

14th Mar 2001, 15:57

Billy,

Just a quick word of encouragement. This forum has shown me that I am certainly not alone.

Amazing the effect that the South of Spain had on my girlfriend!!! Realistically, I could not afford to support her of campus, but I suspect from talking to other Ab-initio students, I get the feeling being focused is essential, if yours is anything like mine, it may get a little difficult.

Keep coming back, because if this thread isn't still going on this subject, you can bet your life anotherwill be sooner or later.

I keep coming back, desperately seeking that one point that will decide me.

Good luck anyway,

May bump into each other sometime.

jochen2

15th Mar 2001, 16:56

hello BAE-applicants,

i am also interested in the ab-initio scheme provided by BAE in Spain. i am married and my wife will go with me if I go. i emailed already twice to their marketing person (Mary Jo) and asked her if what amount they deduct if i have my own apartment etc. however, never got a response from her concerning this specific question. she just sent me all the restant marketing info that´s on their webpage. very professional!!!
does anybody know anything about what they deduct if they deduct.
thanx

Harves

15th Mar 2001, 17:07

Jochen, I'm afraid I don't know, but I think they will have to look at it, because there are a lot of us in the same boat.

I am doing the April course which has been "discounted" to £48500 to include food and acom. I suspect that my reply would be that I am already receiving a special price but I don't know.

I did find out that they had special arrangements with local hotels.

My Mrs will just have to visit if I go. She says it sounds like conjugal rights.

If you find anything more, give me a shout.

Gucci Cockpit

15th Mar 2001, 18:00

Harves,

I am fairly new so please forgive
& forget if I get a few things wrong!

BTW What is the difference between places like Multiflight (working with PanAm flight academy) and OATS or BAE in Jerez where you are going? I mean they all offer the same qualification; frozen ATPL from ab inito.
The only difference I can see is the famous names of BAE and OATS and the price. An extra £20K seems a lot to pay for a flight school which has a better rep! Or am I over looking the point?

Cheers

------------------
"mayday mayday! The sim has lost one of it's legs!"

Gucci Cockpit

15th Mar 2001, 18:18

Also;

Does anyone know the difference between JAR-FCL 1 ATPL (A) and JAR-FCL 1 CPL (A)?
As outlined in the CAA pages:

http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/documents/srg_fcl_approvedftos.pdf

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"mayday mayday! The sim has lost one of it's legs!"

jochen2

15th Mar 2001, 21:14

just received the email from Mrs Mary Jo of BAE in Spain. She says students have to take accommodation on the campus!!! Wifes or girlfriends have to rent accommodation off-campus for themselves!!!
well, that appears to be, at least apriori, unacceptable for my better half!!!
Cheers

Stu Bigzorst

16th Mar 2001, 00:06

I'm self sponsored and am at the very end of my time at OATS (IRT on Wednesday). Not once have I been second place to a sponsored student. In fact, I have done the twins significantly faster than the BA students around me, including those on the poorly named "fast track". In the end it all boils down to attitude, luck, your love of 0600 and sometimes the seniority of your instructor. There are a few students who like to fly after lunch, Monday to Thursday, and they are the ones who are way behind.

Stu

TooHotToFly

16th Mar 2001, 01:14

Gucci - The difference is that schools approved to run the JAR ATPL do the full integrated course, including all the written exams and 195 hours flying. Schools approved to conduct training for the JAA CPL can do so for the modular CPL course (25 hours flying).

For example: OATS, BAe, Cabair and WMU are approved to do conduct the JAR ATPL course.

Professional Air Training, Multiflight etc. are not approved to conduct the approved ATPL course. Instead, they have approval to conduct each flying module. Both ways get you the same licence in the end.

[This message has been edited by TooHotToFly (edited 15 March 2001).]

moggie

17th Mar 2001, 01:30

Harves

WWW mentioned Karl O'Neil - I did his MCC course just before christmas and he had a jet job before the presents were even opened!

The place is nothing like it was at prestwick - we no longer have the ex-air force, big-fish-in-small-pond FIs who treated students like dirt. The atmosphere is great! I didn't want to move, but now I'm here I don't want to go back!

I can say what I did about the ex-RAF types because i am one (but I was a truckie not pointy jet type).

If you arrive in April - I'll see you for your MCC early 2002.

Good luck.

Harves

20th Mar 2001, 12:39

Went to the show at the weekend. Jerez here I come!!!!

Mister Geezer

20th Mar 2001, 17:46

BTW I am starting at OATS shortly, however I have a funny feeling that they are really struggling to fill courses with self - finance bods????

Anyone confirm that?

MG

------------------
Don't land in a field or the sheep will eat the aircraft.

martinf

24th Mar 2001, 00:06

Tallking of BAE - is anyone going to have a look?

You all are talking about spending all this money but from the sound of it hardly any of you have visited any of the schools. Someone told me a while ago to visit them all and I did.

Make sure you stay a lot longer than the marketing people and chat to people. I did that at OATS and managed a chat with sponsored/self-sponsored/instructors and other staff. Gave me a good insight as did visitng the others.

I would think that WMU is a bit far to go but BAE is possible. I am intending going in the next month. Anyone fancy a trip to sunny spain. Reckon if we get 4 of us, fly to malaga on the cheapos and then rent a car. 3 hour drive to Jerez, look round the school, talk to the people and perhaps have drinks. Spend the next day sunning and then head back. All told with accomodation I reckon it can be had for under £175.

Before you all balk at the price remember you'll be shelling out £45,000 which makes £175 seem like pocket change. Also BAE has had good reviews here, so why not take a look!

If anyone is interested then drop me a line - I have just about worked out flights/car rental. Just need a friendly BAE student to tell me where to stay.

Costa del sol here we come!!
:) ;) ;)

Harves

26th Mar 2001, 12:11

Martin,

Quite right, I got my BAe contract through on Saturday and decided that I would do just that. I am going to go early April with contract and deposit in hand. By the way, if you didn't know, BUZZ start flying direct to Jerez from April and depending on days, you can get the return flight from £110.

My girlfriend will be coming with me to get the SP, so I will not be able to help in cost cutting (at least as far as accomodation goes).

Drop me a mail if I can be of help in any way.

Good Luck

Tarmach

26th Mar 2001, 16:00

Can you go on a full integrated course if you have had flight training upto PPL level?

Could you actually miss off the part of the course you have already done yourself?

GJB

26th Mar 2001, 18:36

TARMACH

Yes, I believe you can.

What I want to know is, how much less the integrated course can be had for?

Haven't had his question answered by BAe yet, or does anyone here have the answer?

Harves

26th Mar 2001, 18:51

This thread started with the question What is the story at OATS? Has anyone else read the other thread concerning the cancellation of a course with days to go until the start date.

The thread is extremely restrained, but I would be livid having handed in my notice to be told that I would have to start a month later.

Does anyone know any details on the reason behind this.

As a lot of you will gather, I still haven't signed a contract yet, but I get the feeling that this has finally decided me.

But I really would like to know the full story with OATS.

[This message has been edited by Harves (edited 26 March 2001).]