Who still operates the B767? [Archive]

admiral ackbar

4th Feb 2020, 12:37

There are not many major operators left with 767 on a scheduled long haul services. I thought AC got rid of them long ago..

Between AC mainline and Rouge they have 30 763ER's and they could not be happier with them.

22/04

4th Feb 2020, 12:40

There are not many major operators left with 767 on a scheduled long haul services. I thought AC got rid of them long ago.

There are a lot in use by the US main carriers Delta, United etc.

foxcharliep2

4th Feb 2020, 14:37

There are not many major operators left with 767 on a scheduled long haul services. I thought AC got rid of them long ago..

Condor in Germany operates 16 on long haul routes...

CargoOne

4th Feb 2020, 15:02

Condor in Germany operates 16 on long haul routes...
I know, but they are the only one in Europe and then another four in North America and one in South America. I guess that falls into “not many” pretty well.

BRE

4th Feb 2020, 15:08

Between AC mainline and Rouge they have 30 763ER's and they could not be happier with them.

Last time I looked they had about half a dozen of them left at mainline, running them on thin routes like YUL-FRA. All of them were 29-31 years old. From what I read, they were due to be replaced by A330 last fall but it seems the phase out is dragging on:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Canada#Current_fleet

admiral ackbar

4th Feb 2020, 16:56

Last time I looked they had about half a dozen of them left at mainline, running them on thin routes like YUL-FRA. All of them were 29-31 years old. From what I read, they were due to be replaced by A330 last fall but it seems the phase out is dragging on:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Canada#Current_fleet

They can't find anything currently available that generates the bucket loads of money these paid off 333s and 763s generate. The MAX situation exarcebates this for AC as well.

Rouge (which is the same thing as AC regardless of what the marketing department says) has 25 of them with no replacement in sight.

tdracer

4th Feb 2020, 18:43

I know, but they are the only one in Europe and then another four in North America and one in South America. I guess that falls into “not many” pretty well.
Lets see, Air Canada has 30, Delta 77, United 54, JAL 35. Worldwide over 400 767s are still operating as passenger aircraft (over 700 if you add in the freighters). You have a strange definition of "not many"...
As Admiral notes, airlines like them - they don't take a whole lot of maintenance and make lots of money. Quite a few of the passenger 767s out there have over 100k flight hours and are still going strong.

CargoOne

4th Feb 2020, 19:36

Lets see, Air Canada has 30, Delta 77, United 54, JAL 35. Worldwide over 400 767s are still operating as passenger aircraft (over 700 if you add in the freighters). You have a strange definition of "not many"...
As Admiral notes, airlines like them - they don't take a whole lot of maintenance and make lots of money. Quite a few of the passenger 767s out there have over 100k flight hours and are still going strong.

just read carefully what I’ve said in the beginning - major airline long haul scheduled service. This removes all Rouge fleet, significant part of US majors 767 fleet is not operated on long haul, same with JAL. Condor is not a major airline. So not too many left after all.

foxcharliep2

4th Feb 2020, 20:57

tdracer

4th Feb 2020, 21:22

Longtimer

4th Feb 2020, 23:35

Re AirCanada Rouge, I imagine some would call some of their destinations "long haul". The following points are served from Canada

Central America (https://www.skyscanner.ca/tips-and-inspiration/central-america-travel-guide) (Panama City, Liberia, San Jose, San Salvador, Belize City)
South America (Cartagena, Bogota, Lima (https://www.skyscanner.ca/tips-and-inspiration/lima-travel-guide), Quito)
Europe (https://www.skyscanner.ca/tips-and-inspiration/best-cities-central-europe) (Manchester, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Nice, Marseilles, Berlin, Warsaw, Prague, Venice, Barcelona, Porto, Lisbon, Athens, Budapest, Zagreb, Bucharest)

BRE

5th Feb 2020, 07:40

Lets see, Air Canada has 30, Delta 77, United 54, JAL 35. Worldwide over 400 767s are still operating as passenger aircraft (over 700 if you add in the freighters). You have a strange definition of "not many"...
As Admiral notes, airlines like them - they don't take a whole lot of maintenance and make lots of money. Quite a few of the passenger 767s out there have over 100k flight hours and are still going strong.

Yes, there are close to no capital costs, but isn't that more than made up by higher fuel and maintenance cost? Don't the checks cost a lot of time and money once the planes are 30 years old and have 80k+ cycles?

I mean, there must be a reason that solid airlines phase their planes out once they reach about 15 years.

And the main reason, apparently, that Lufthansa and a bunch of others passed up on Condor was exactly that their fleet was very old and in dire need of replacement.

KelvinD

5th Feb 2020, 07:47

Lets see, Air Canada has 30,
According to information I see, Air Canada has 5 767 (C-FOCA, C-FPCA, C-FTCA, C-GHOZ & C-GCA)

DaveReidUK

5th Feb 2020, 07:57

According to information I see, Air Canada has 5 767 (C-FOCA, C-FPCA, C-FTCA, C-GHOZ & C-GLCA)

Plus 25 with ACA's wholly-owned subsidiary, Air Canada Rouge, so 30 in total.

KelvinD

5th Feb 2020, 08:23

Dave: Yes, I acknowledge that Rouge have theirs but arguments earlier in the thread were discounting Rouge so I took the same view.

Lord Bracken

5th Feb 2020, 10:02

Yes, there are close to no capital costs, but isn't that more than made up by higher fuel and maintenance cost? Don't the checks cost a lot of time and money once the planes are 30 years old and have 80k+ cycles?

I mean, there must be a reason that solid airlines phase their planes out once they reach about 15 years.

And the main reason, apparently, that Lufthansa and a bunch of others passed up on Condor was exactly that their fleet was very old and in dire need of replacement.

BA are operating 747-400s and 777-200s from the late 1990s and they make bucketfuls of cash, despite (especially in the case of the former) their relative inefficency. A properly maintained, bought and paid for 20+ year 747 can still be a money making machine if operated within the right route/marketing/sales strategy.

Even LH are still operating 343 from 1998-2001.

rog747

5th Feb 2020, 10:40

Condor still have a large fleet of 17 in mainline long haul use, and Austrian also still uses 6 (ex Lauda)

TUI UK (ex Air 2000 and Thomson machines) and TUI Europe/Nordic have some, as does ex TUI partner Neos Air in Italy who have 3.

EuroAtlantic and Titan still use 767 for ACMI work
Icelandair has a couple, as does RAM

N707ZS

5th Feb 2020, 11:37

This should keep you busy looking at who has what.

https://www.planespotters.net/operators/Boeing/767

BRE

5th Feb 2020, 12:49

Even LH are still operating 343 from 1998-2001.

Yes, but 343, 346, 744 are all on their way out, phase out having been delayed by availabilit of the A350-900, 787-900 and 777-900.

Frankly, I never understood why they gobbled up 343 after the bust in 2008/09 and kept adding 346, when there were better alternatives (newer versions of A330-300 and B777). They may have been cheap and available, but commonality would not have ruled out getting more A330 in the mix. Their business model used to be to have a young fleet throughout,.

dixi188

5th Feb 2020, 13:22

Don't forget DHL have some 300Fs

DaveReidUK

5th Feb 2020, 13:41

Don't forget DHL have some 300Fs

In fact there are over 300 active 767 freighters

GAZIN

5th Feb 2020, 14:49

Indeed, Boeing are still building the 767F.

supercarb

5th Feb 2020, 21:44

Flew on a Delta one last week ATL-LHR. Fitted with what appeared to be brand new cabin interior.

tdracer

5th Feb 2020, 22:05

Yes, but 343, 346, 744 are all on their way out, phase out having been delayed by availabilit of the A350-900, 787-900 and 777-900.

Frankly, I never understood why they gobbled up 343 after the bust in 2008/09 and kept adding 346, when there were better alternatives (newer versions of A330-300 and B777). They may have been cheap and available, but commonality would not have ruled out getting more A330 in the mix. Their business model used to be to have a young fleet throughout,.

You might want to think about what the A340 and 747 have in common...
Different operators use different business models. There are some operators who don't do 'D' checks - they get rid of them before that. Others are perfectly happy to do heavy maintenance checks on a regular basis. Put a new/updated interior in a 20 year old aircraft and most SLF won't know the difference between that and a new aircraft.
Heavy maintenance on the 767 (and 757) has proved to be relatively easy and inexpensive, as a result there are some seriously high time passenger 767s still flying for mainline operators.

Atlas Shrugged

6th Feb 2020, 01:15

Long live The Dumpster!!!

Alsacienne

6th Feb 2020, 07:30

Icelandair still flies 767s ... or do you not consider their hub and spoke routes long enough haul?

BRE

6th Feb 2020, 07:44

You might want to think about what the A340 and 747 have in common...
.

Let me think hard... 4 holes? range?

Thing is, by the 00s, twins were surpassing four holers in fuel efficiency and range. At the same time, the 777 and 330 had an edge over older designs like the 767.

tdracer

7th Feb 2020, 00:20

Let me think hard... 4 holes? range?

Thing is, by the 00s, twins were surpassing four holers in fuel efficiency and range. At the same time, the 777 and 330 had an edge over older designs like the 767.
With the possible exception of freighters, there is little reason for four engines. The only four engine aircraft still in production is the 747-8F, and it's future is pretty cloudy at the moment.
The problem with replacing 767s with A330/777 is size - they are both significantly larger than a 767-300, with the associated higher operational costs. So even with more efficient engines, they cost more to operate, so you need to be able to fill them to make it worthwhile compared to a 767.
There is still a good sized hole between the A321/737-10MAX and the A330 NEO. Which is also why Boeing is looking so hard at the MMA

Harry Wayfarers

7th Feb 2020, 06:48

just read carefully what I’ve said in the beginning - major airline long haul scheduled service. This removes all Rouge fleet, significant part of US majors 767 fleet is not operated on long haul, same with JAL. Condor is not a major airline. So not too many left after all.

So yours was a loaded statement, I don't recell Boeing marketing that the type was only for long-haul operations by major carriers, according to Wiki there have been some 1,176 B767's manufactured over the past 39 years and if, as some suggest, more than 700 of these remain in service then I'd say that is a very successful type.

I'd hate to be an airline CEO in this day and age "Oops, we no matter how profitable the route we can't utilise our B767's on short/medium haul in case in years to come some spotter comes along ..."

DaveReidUK

7th Feb 2020, 08:05

I'd hate to be an airline CEO in this day and age "Oops, we no matter how profitable the route we can't utilise our B767's on short/medium haul in case in years to come some spotter comes along ..."

Indeed so.

BA certainly didn't subscribe to that view. Before they retired the type, they had two dedicated 767 sub-fleets, one used for longhaul and the other for shorthaul (including some UK domestic schedules).

It's not hard to see why this thread, which started in R&N, was relegated by the mods to Spotters' Corner. :O

Chiefttp

7th Feb 2020, 13:25

I know they are selling a lot to freight operators to this day! Excellent aircraft.

TCU

7th Feb 2020, 15:37

Ethiopian still has six -300's chugging around Africa and the Middle East on what may not unreasonably be described as secondary routes, with the 777, 787 and A350's now on the premium runs.

tdracer

7th Feb 2020, 18:29

Ethiopian still has six -300's chugging around Africa and the Middle East on what may not unreasonably be described as secondary routes, with the 777, 787 and A350's now on the premium runs.
Are the Ethiopian 767s still configured with 8 across in coach? AFAIK they were the only operator to do that.
The 767 was often the most popular aircraft with SLF due to the 7 across coach seating and the relatively roomy seats it provided. I did a per-delivery flight test on on of those Ethiopian 767s a long time ago - I could fit into one of their coach seats but it was tight (and I'm not a large person). Sitting there for several hours would have been horrid...

tonyb

7th Feb 2020, 20:54

BY/TOM/TUI were/are 8 abrest in Y.

rog747

8th Feb 2020, 06:48

BY/TOM/TUI were/are 8 abreast in Y.

Yes it was BY in 1984 that first saw 8 abreast in their new 767-200's and BY manged 273Y (then up to 290Y with a galley shift).
Did not seem too bad when I first flew to IBZ on one in summer 84 but I was only young and slim then LOL
There are other airlines around that followed suit - Leisure International and AMM with it's 767-300's to name but 2...Not much fun if going to the Maldives or Orlando....

Monarch started the 9 abreast trend on it's four A300's to enable 361Y (not sure if any of the German carriers had already done this before MON/OM did)

Airbanda

8th Feb 2020, 15:18

Example visible overhead Northampton now; FR24 shows it to be 763 N677UA off LHR for Newark. Several others, mostly Delta on NA tracks.

TUI still operate type on UK register, G-OBYH currently off Portuguese coast en route MAN-LPA.

Flew LHR-EWR and return on United examples in late 2018.