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SeenItAll
21st Jan 2020, 17:58
https://www.yahoo.com/news/first-flight-boeings-777x-set-thursday-sources-184505744.htmlFirst flight of Boeing's 777X set for Thursday: sourcesLuc OLINGA
January 21, 2020, 1:45 PM ESTNew York (AFP) - Following months of delay on a plane under development, Boeing plans the first flight for its new long-range 777X on Thursday, two people with knowledge of the matter said Tuesday.

The progress on the 777X comes as Boeing's broader prospects remain clouded by the crisis surrounding the 737 MAX, which has been grounded since March following two deadly crashes.

The date for the first flight, a key step before Boeing seeks federal certification on the new wide-body plane, could still slip depending on weather, the sources said.

The aerospace giant is also seeking to raise at least $10 billion from leading banks due to increased costs connected to the MAX situation, banking sources told AFP.

The 777X flight had initially been planned for summer 2019 but was shifted back due to a number of issues, including with a new engine built by General Electric.

The flight is scheduled to take place in Seattle, the sources said.

A spokesman for the US Federal Aviation Administration said the 777X flight was expected soon "but the timing is entirely up to Boeing."

There have been 340 orders for the 777X, mostly from giants such as Emirates, Lufthansa, Cathay Pacific, Singapore Airlines and Qatar Airways. The plane is a rival option to the Airbus A350.

If all goes well with the first flight, Boeing will then submit documents to the FAA as part of the formal certification process, which includes a test flight.

Boeing is now pointing to early 2021 for first commercial deliveries of the plane, later than the mid-2020 timeframe previously targeted.

Development of the long-range aircraft, which can take between 384 and 426 passengers, hit a snag in September when the fuselage of the plane split during a stress test.

DaveReidUK
21st Jan 2020, 18:51
I'm guessing the first flight will hinge on the weather. :O

turbidus
21st Jan 2020, 23:06
I am guessing the "announcement" of the first flight coincided with the Mid 2020 announcement.

How long will the "weather" wait be?

tdracer
21st Jan 2020, 23:43
How long will the "weather" wait be?
At the risk of feeding a consistent 'Boeing Basher' - it could be significant. Weather in the Seattle area in January isn't particularly conducive to the first flight requirements. Among other things, the takeoff will need to be to the north (there are highly populated areas directly south of Paine Field), at a time when the normal wind pattern is from the south (10 knot tailwind limit), and visibility needs to be good enough for visual tracking by chase planes when rain is forecast for at least the next week. Heck, weather very nearly delayed the original 777 first flight in 1994, and that was in June...
Of course that will do little to dissuade the Boeing critics who will happily proclaim the delays have nothing to do with the actual weather...

Australopithecus
22nd Jan 2020, 01:50
At the risk of feeding a consistent 'Boeing Basher' - it could be significant. Weather in the Seattle area in January isn't particularly conducive to the first flight requirements. Among other things, the takeoff will need to be to the north (there are highly populated areas directly south of Paine Field), at a time when the normal wind pattern is from the south (10 knot tailwind limit), and visibility needs to be good enough for visual tracking by chase planes when rain is forecast for at least the next week. Heck, weather very nearly delayed the original 777 first flight in 1994, and that was in June...
Of course that will do little to dissuade the Boeing critics who will happily proclaim the delays have nothing to do with the actual weather...

Do test programs move elsewhere after the first few flights? I can well understand the January wx in Seattle isnít very conducive to VFR flight.

tdracer
22nd Jan 2020, 06:48
Do test programs move elsewhere after the first few flights? I can well understand the January wx in Seattle isnít very conducive to VFR flight.

First flight has to be out of Paine Field (Everett), since that's where the aircraft is. Normal procedure is for the first flight to land at Boeing Field (just south of Seattle), with the flight test program based out of Boeing Field.
No first hand knowledge of the 777X program, but SOP is to do some very basic safety of flight testing (with minimum crew on-board) for the first few flights, after which the FAA will grant the basic Experimental Ticket - after which the overly restrictive 'first flight' requirements are relaxed and the 'normal' flight test program can proceed.

esscee
22nd Jan 2020, 09:56
Now I wonder how long it will take for the 777X to be certified? FAA will have to stand firm on this aircraft.

Less Hair
22nd Jan 2020, 13:34
How about moving flight testing down to Edwards, Palmdale or Victorville to make their life easier and get more flight hours due to more stable weather?

Paul852
22nd Jan 2020, 15:45
Flight testing obviously happens all over the place in varying climates. But the FIRST flight has to be from the factory where it was made - unless you propose shipping a complete 777X overland somehow.

ETOPS
22nd Jan 2020, 15:48
first flight will hinge

On the wing tips more likely :ok:

Winemaker
22nd Jan 2020, 18:17
First flight has to be out of Paine Field (Everett), since that's where the aircraft is. Normal procedure is for the first flight to land at Boeing Field (just south of Seattle), with the flight test program based out of Boeing Field.
No first hand knowledge of the 777X program, but SOP is to do some very basic safety of flight testing (with minimum crew on-board) for the first few flights, after which the FAA will grant the basic Experimental Ticket - after which the overly restrictive 'first flight' requirements are relaxed and the 'normal' flight test program can proceed.
Isn't most of the flight testing done out of Moses Lake?

DaveReidUK
22nd Jan 2020, 18:26
On the wing tips more likely

Well I'm glad somebody saw what I did ...

tdracer
22nd Jan 2020, 18:38
Isn't most of the flight testing done out of Moses Lake?
Experimental Flight Testing is usually based out of Boeing Field - that's where all the offices, crew, equipment, etc. are located, although there are exceptions.
That being said, much of the actual flight testing occurs at and around Moses Lake. Very common to takeoff out of Boeing Field and head for Moses Lake to do the actual flight testing - not only a relatively unused airport, the airspace is far less crowded than it is around the Puget Sound area (the other common area was to head over the Pacific west of Washington/Oregon to get large, open blocks of airspace - useful for things like drag and fuel burn testing, where you need to fly straight, level, and hands-off for minutes at a time).
When we were flight testing the 747-8, it was right in the middle of the 787 flight test program. Boeing Field wasn't readily able to support both flight test programs at the same time, so they relocated the 747-8 flight testing to Victorville for a while. It worked, but it was very expensive to keep the over a hundred person crew remote for an extended period.

WingNut60
22nd Jan 2020, 20:18
..........but it was very expensive to keep the over a hundred person crew remote for an extended period.

But not as expensive as delayed certification.
Someone crunched the numbers.

tdracer
22nd Jan 2020, 20:55
But not as expensive as delayed certification.
Someone crunched the numbers.
No argument - just pointing out that it's not cheap to base flight testing away from Seattle.
We took a flight test 747-8F to Iqaluit (upper Northeast part of Canada) for a couple days to do very cold weather engine start testing (we needed -30C or below). In order to base a flight test aircraft there for just a day or two took a team of about 50 people.

Bournemouthair
22nd Jan 2020, 21:23
TAXI trislsctoday . Tomorrow big dayhttps://youtu.be/RBvDUBVCHRY

turbidus
23rd Jan 2020, 00:18
At the risk of feeding a consistent 'Boeing Basher' - it could be significant.

Why would you consider facts as bashing?

The 737MAX is where right now?

Boeing has been proven to have lied, deflected, and obfuscated on virtually every aspect on every aircraft. It is all there in the emails and messages, albeit from lower lever employees.

The Senate has been forced to request ALL of the emails on the 737MAX

WHEN the request for the same documentation is required on the 777MAX , it will be the same scenario.

The 77MAX was short fused in response to the A350, just like the 737MAX was a shortfuse response to the 320neo..,.,

tdracer
23rd Jan 2020, 01:02
Why would you consider facts as bashing?

The 737MAX is where right now?

Boeing has been proven to have lied, deflected, and obfuscated on virtually every aspect on every aircraft. It is all there in the emails and messages, albeit from lower lever employees.

The Senate has been forced to request ALL of the emails on the 737MAX

WHEN the request for the same documentation is required on the 777MAX , it will be the same scenario.

The 77MAX was short fused in response to the A350, just like the 737MAX was a shortfuse response to the 320neo..,.,
I rest my case...

Airbubba
23rd Jan 2020, 02:41
I'm guessing the first flight will hinge on the weather. :O

Looks like you are right as usual DaveReidUK. ;)

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/907x216/boeing_02045275ed1b4e147412e2db5e84c1f960bdea22.jpg

Auxtank
24th Jan 2020, 06:45
Webcast...

Going ahead today...

Live Stream here:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/777x/first-flight/index.page?sf228790964=1#/webcast

Imagegear
24th Jan 2020, 17:41
The winds are no where near acceptable today, I expect they will scrub before they fly.

IG

DaveReidUK
24th Jan 2020, 17:44
Wingtips just unfolding as it lines up ...

Banana4321
24th Jan 2020, 18:07
How long do they need!!!!

DaveReidUK
24th Jan 2020, 18:11
About 6,000 feet, I reckon. :O

Banana4321
24th Jan 2020, 18:16
About 6,000 feet, I reckon. :O

Yeah alright

LOL

tdracer
24th Jan 2020, 18:18
You better get comfortable, although I can see a few glimpses of blue sky, the rain isn't supposed to lift for at least an hour.

I'm going to be at a sports field near the airport between about noon and 1pm (local time), maybe I'll get lucky :ok:

DaveReidUK
24th Jan 2020, 18:23
And you can see how windy it is by the way the static cone on the tail is blowing around.

tdracer
24th Jan 2020, 18:36
And you can see how windy it is by the way the static cone on the tail is blowing around.
Yea, current weather says 17 knots out of the South (so tail wind for takeoff). Looks like it's supposed to drop off later in the afternoon, but not for a couple hours...

Banana4321
24th Jan 2020, 19:05
And you can see how windy it is by the way the static cone on the tail is blowing around.
Hardly static!

ETOPS
24th Jan 2020, 19:37
Why can't they depart off 16 ?

Duchess_Driver
24th Jan 2020, 19:40
see tdracers post #4....

Auxtank
24th Jan 2020, 20:06
Bored now.
Don't think they're going to do it without really good Metar - can't/ won't risk an RTO/ wing flapping scenario.

Stand down.

Having said that it does look like the weather is brightening up and the sun has come out...

Watching...and it DOES look like a really lovely aircraft...I'd like to fly that.

Imagegear
24th Jan 2020, 20:33
Scrubbed for today due to wind.

IG

Auxtank
24th Jan 2020, 20:58
Good move.

Try again tomorrow...

(Can't help thinking old John Cashman would have taken her off...Whatever...)

tdracer
24th Jan 2020, 22:15
Good move.

Try again tomorrow...

(Can't help thinking old John Cashman would have taken her off...Whatever...)

Yep, plan is for ~10am (local time) on Saturday. Weather forecast is more promising - occasional showers and winds out of the south at ~8 knots.

I was there for the original 777 first flight in 1994. The tail wind was fluctuating around the 10 knot limit the whole time - there was some speculation at the time that Cashman was rather selective about which wind reading he was going to use to allow the takeoff. :rolleyes:
Today was between 15-20 knots most of the time, so I suspect even Mr. Cashman would have been hard pressed to come up with with a reading that would have made it permissible...

Auxtank
24th Jan 2020, 22:22
Light rain and 1 MPH winds at present.
Could be on...


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/680x369/epg53xmx0aq9fri_41dea9c32c837876b35584ce2199a22e0bdb68cc.jpe g

halfwinged
25th Jan 2020, 12:02
if I may quote Mr. Cashman:Despite years of training and planning and preparation for that first 787 flight, the pilots will no doubt encounter the unexpected

"That's what we do," he said. "We find things so our customers don't have to."

This was during his retirement (according to the source seattlepi): After 40 years at Boeing, chief test pilot John Cashman is retiring
Is interesting about what I think we all agree here. Unlike other pieces of hardware and software nowadays, where the design phase 'catches all they can get' and after release the product, so the market starts using it and report back the 'glitches' or 'faults' so fixes are applied later on. There's a small-huge difference on an airplane:
The flight test engineers and test pilots are trained to try, find and correct those glitches and errors. But the common day-by-day pilot may not fall into that category, and when faced with the unknown may react differently.
At that point, the pilots cannot just 'shut down and restart' or stop in the middle of the air to report the glitch to the manufacturer.
As the machines we fly become more sophisticated, there is more things that lies deep buried on the software coding and hardware that is supposed to 'kick-in' at the right time, to save the day. In the past, that hardware was the pilot, and the software was their ability, experience, feeling, etc., right now, well, it seems that the direction is other. Machines that 'automatically' correct, the errors or situations. Until it gets to the point of being 'out-of-the-script', when something happens that is outside that predefined set of 'triggers' and we have to rely again on the pilots.
Is an interesting paradox to think about, when everything is pointing to the point of 'single pilot' crew (save money, maximize profit), completely automated flight (idem)... hell, when machines are operating, who will be responsible if something goes wrong?. Be aware Boeing / Airbus... you will... there will be no more 'pilot error' mentioned on the investigations... will you take the bet?

12A
25th Jan 2020, 16:11
Pushed back...

Longtimer
25th Jan 2020, 16:24
live webcast: Boeing: Boeing 777X First Flight: Flight Tracker, Webcast & Video (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/777x/first-flight/index.page?sf228790964=1#/webcast)

Imagegear
25th Jan 2020, 16:25
The static cone is almost asleep..looking good.

IG

Fly Aiprt
25th Jan 2020, 17:11
There she goes...

Auxtank
25th Jan 2020, 17:18
Nice take off.

Good for Boeing.
Lovely aircraft.
Well done!


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/630x369/boeing777x_4_630x369_0ae951780fc6c3c2141081b7948c94e745b74d9 c.jpg

Fly Aiprt
25th Jan 2020, 17:20
Too bad we don't have a live feed from the cockpit like for the A380 first flight. That'd be great.

Locking Nut
25th Jan 2020, 17:29
Too bad we don't have a live feed from the cockpit like for the A380 first flight. That'd be great.

After everything Boeing have been through over the last year or so, you can sort of see why that might have been a little too far into the realms of tempting fate. Nice takeoff - I see 737Max's test flying yesterday and today too.

Auxtank
25th Jan 2020, 17:37
if I may quote Mr. Cashman:

This was during his retirement (according to the source seattlepi): After 40 years at Boeing, chief test pilot John Cashman is retiring
Is interesting about what I think we all agree here. Unlike other pieces of hardware and software nowadays, where the design phase 'catches all they can get' and after release the product, so the market starts using it and report back the 'glitches' or 'faults' so fixes are applied later on. There's a small-huge difference on an airplane:
The flight test engineers and test pilots are trained to try, find and correct those glitches and errors. But the common day-by-day pilot may not fall into that category, and when faced with the unknown may react differently.
At that point, the pilots cannot just 'shut down and restart' or stop in the middle of the air to report the glitch to the manufacturer.
As the machines we fly become more sophisticated, there is more things that lies deep buried on the software coding and hardware that is supposed to 'kick-in' at the right time, to save the day. In the past, that hardware was the pilot, and the software was their ability, experience, feeling, etc., right now, well, it seems that the direction is other. Machines that 'automatically' correct, the errors or situations. Until it gets to the point of being 'out-of-the-script', when something happens that is outside that predefined set of 'triggers' and we have to rely again on the pilots.
Is an interesting paradox to think about, when everything is pointing to the point of 'single pilot' crew (save money, maximize profit), completely automated flight (idem)... hell, when machines are operating, who will be responsible if something goes wrong?. Be aware Boeing / Airbus... you will... there will be no more 'pilot error' mentioned on the investigations... will you take the bet?


For those interested YT has the whole of the excellent "21st Century Jet - The Building Of The 777" - here (link below); in which John Cashman features in his role as Chief Test Pilot for the project. He argues a lot with the designers - and as 'Halfwinged' says; mostly about getting things right from the 'getgo' and not relying on customers having to beta-check Boeing's work. How true. History having maybe now shown what the flip-side of NOT doing that extra work results in...

Won't take anything away from Boeing today though - that 777X looks marvellous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oyWZjdXxlw

halfwinged
25th Jan 2020, 19:28
Amazingly I was watching exactly that documentary Mr. Auxtank :)
Is amazing how much effort is set on these beautiful birds... you immediately have to love them... even if they are only machines...
that is why I think is time for reflection and action on Boeing, I have seen on this documentary, what I'm seeing now where I'm working, those same issues about internal discussions: -you did this-, -your department missed that-
while at the end, what the customer and the user sees is the final working product, and everybody have to work together to achieve it.

Is very hard to manage such a monumental engineering task to build a new model plane, derived or not..., that is a shame that goes ruined for, i.e., a mere piece of software poorly designed, or a crack formed in the wrong position, or other issues, that at the moment had the potential of being rectified. Listen to your workers, to the experience, and to the engineers is a must... they are the ones in contact with the metal (or the composites today... :)

Well done today Boeing... hope that, as Mr. Cashman's said, 'you find all the 'things', so your customers don't have to...' for this model, and for all the company models... good winds on the testing phase! lets see that bird touchdown now!...

b1lanc
25th Jan 2020, 19:41
Awesome sound!

tdracer
25th Jan 2020, 19:56
Planned to be around a five hour flight - fairly ambitious for a first flight - landing at Boeing Field around 3pm local.

MikeSnow
25th Jan 2020, 20:09
Congratulations Boeing! I loved the sound of the engines.

I noticed something during the takeoff that looked a bit strange. Maybe it was an optical illusion, but it seemed the MLG began leaving the ground at least a second before the nose gear.

Auxtank
25th Jan 2020, 20:15
Planned to be around a five hour flight - fairly ambitious for a first flight - landing at Boeing Field around 3pm local.

Let us know when she's landed safe tdracer...:)

tdracer
25th Jan 2020, 20:29
Let us know when she's landed safe tdracer...:)
Looks like they just flew past Mount Rainier, after flying round Moses Lake for a couple hours. It's solid overcast here, but maybe it's clear enough by Mount Rainier to get the obligatory photos of the new aircraft with Mount Rainier in the background :E

Auxtank
25th Jan 2020, 20:56
Looks like they just flew past Mount Rainier, after flying round Moses Lake for a couple hours. It's solid overcast here, but maybe it's clear enough by Mount Rainier to get the obligatory photos of the new aircraft with Mount Rainier in the background :E

Probably won't get a shot in the current METAR but worth a try.
MikeSnow - very gentle TO so what you saw was compression coming off the MLG as the lift came in to those lovely new wings. Then of course, nose up, FD and the rest is a lovely TO from this excellent new airframe.
Well spotted.

treadigraph
25th Jan 2020, 20:57
On final for Boeing Field now...

Nice to see they are still using a T-33 as a chase aircraft!

tdracer
25th Jan 2020, 21:17
Post flight presser going on right now.
Auxtank, it depends of the upper altitude of the cloud layer. Rainier rising above a low cloud layer looks really impressive (been lucky enough to see that a few times - once by the light of a full moon). If they got some shots like that I'm sure they'd be really happy.

Fly Aiprt
25th Jan 2020, 22:11
After everything Boeing have been through over the last year or so, you can sort of see why that might have been a little too far into the realms of tempting fate. Understandably they'll never show 737 MAX flight tests, but the 777X is not a radically different model like the A380 was, so not much fate involved ?
Did they use to provide cockpit feeds before the MAX disasters ?
Or maybe just an issue with transparency ?

KelvinD
25th Jan 2020, 22:21
I wonder if it was disappointing to Boeing when one sees the airlines that have associated themselves with this launch:
ANA, British Airways, Qatar, Singapore, Cathay Pacific, Emirates, Etihad & Lufthansa. Not a single US airline there!

Flight Alloy
25th Jan 2020, 22:52
I'm quite certain in the current situation Boeing is happy to have any large company with cash on hand to spend be associated with it...

VH DSJ
26th Jan 2020, 02:25
Why do they leave the landing gear down on these first test flights? I recall the the first 787 test flight also did the same.

568
26th Jan 2020, 02:33
Why do they leave the landing gear down on these first test flights? I recall the the first 787 test flight also did the same.

It is standard practice on maiden flights.

FrequentSLF
26th Jan 2020, 03:39
Sexy Lady!
Congrats to Boeing, it shows that they are professionals, and even if one of the programs goes wrong they can still focus and get it done on others

VH DSJ
26th Jan 2020, 06:07
It is standard practice on maiden flights.

I gathered that, but I'm asking why?

Dave Therhino
26th Jan 2020, 06:16
I gathered that, but I'm asking why?

I'm speculating, but I think it's simply risk reduction - one less thing to worry about going wrong on the first flight. The landing gear obviously is fully ready for the flight, but they are typically verifying lower speed characteristics on the first flight, so leaving the gear down doesn't limit them much. You can bet if an engine failure occurred on takeoff they would have raised the gear.

WingNut60
26th Jan 2020, 06:34
I'm speculating, but I think it's simply risk reduction - one less thing to worry about going wrong on the first flight. The landing gear obviously is fully ready for the flight, but they are typically verifying lower speed characteristics on the first flight, so leaving the gear down doesn't limit them much. You can bet if an engine failure occurred on takeoff they would have raised the gear.
But five hours with the gear down ?????????????

SamYeager
26th Jan 2020, 06:58
But five hours with the gear down ?????????????
Just don't tell Greta about the effect on fuel consumption. :E

733driver
26th Jan 2020, 08:30
I have often wondered the same thing. Why keep the gear down throughout may of these first flights? It doesn't seam to me like a landing gear would be likely to malfunction and if it did there'd be contingency procedures. There are much bigger risks associated with a first flight that are happily accepted but the gear. I really don't understand. But I'm not a test pilot and I#d be happy to learn.

DaveReidUK
26th Jan 2020, 09:08
A350 first flight 2013:

eWtPA8v-xeQ

Gear goes up at about 2:06

Auxtank
26th Jan 2020, 09:58
Boeing test flight evaluation and procedural testing is different to Airbus.

A load of stability, handling and system evaluations are done prior to retracting the landing gear on Boeings. Has been that way for a long time.
Airbus must do same tests but in a different order regarding landing gear position.

Less Hair
26th Jan 2020, 10:03
Has the gear mechanism been changed compared to the 777-300ER? The wing is new so must be the wing box and gear bay.

Simo Lallukka
26th Jan 2020, 10:06
During final taxing or towing the plane windshield wipers did not look ok. Other wiper worked half way and other wiper was not working. It was shown in Finnish tv-news clip, they did not comment this.

b1lanc
26th Jan 2020, 11:09
I'm speculating, but I think it's simply risk reduction - one less thing to worry about going wrong on the first flight. The landing gear obviously is fully ready for the flight, but they are typically verifying lower speed characteristics on the first flight, so leaving the gear down doesn't limit them much. You can bet if an engine failure occurred on takeoff they would have raised the gear.
That's exactly the protocol that a Boeing test-pilot stated in a televised interview just after touchdown. He also added the embarrasment factor - first flight, a lot of press, what if they raise the gear and then - use your imagination on how far that set of unknowns could set the program back and the resultant black eye for B when they already have their quota of black-eye boxes checked.

DaveReidUK
26th Jan 2020, 11:31
Has the gear mechanism been changed compared to the 777-300ER? The wing is new so must be the wing box and gear bay.

AFAIK, the gear on the 777-9 is substantially the same as the -300ER's (same mfr), though the new wing has resulted in the track being 6" less.

Less Hair
26th Jan 2020, 11:36
Did they keep the gear down for the entire 787 first flight back then?

WB627
26th Jan 2020, 12:14
Does the 777X rely on "grandfather rights" for certification, in the same way the 737 Max did?

DaveReidUK
26th Jan 2020, 13:17
Did they keep the gear down for the entire 787 first flight back then?

See post #58.

Does the 777X rely on "grandfather rights" for certification, in the same way the 737 Max did?

Yes.

Pilot DAR
26th Jan 2020, 14:09
rely on "grandfather rights" for certification

It's not "grandfather rights". The airplane presented for certification to the FAA will be presented one of three ways: A brand new design, to the latest design requirements, A derivative of a type for which the manufacturer holds a type certificate, approved to the original certification basis (very unlikely for an airliner), Or, A derivative of a type for which the manufacturer holds a type certificate, approved to an updated certification basis - most likely scenario. The applicant and the FAA will agree with a certification basis under the "changed product rule (CPR)" guidelines. It is certain that when CPR is exercised correctly, the most applicable and practical more recent design requirements will be applied to the derivative design. It would not always be possible to apply the latest design requirements to a derivative of an older design, so the FAA realizes the need for discussion and compromise. The CPR determination will be documented for future reference.

It will not be a case of "the oldest" (grandfather), or the newest (may as well be a whole new design, for the work involved), it will be a well thought out compromise. Recent history with the 737 MAX and MCAS would suggest that a part of the CPR process was not correctly applied for that change. I'm confident that someone is reviewing that. In the mean time, I have to hope that the need for objective application of the CPR process will be fresh in the FAA's mind these days!

Auxtank
26th Jan 2020, 14:31
During final taxing or towing the plane windshield wipers did not look ok. Other wiper worked half way and other wiper was not working. It was shown in Finnish tv-news clip, they did not comment this.

Windshield wipers on the 777 are controlled independently of one another and have their own switches on each side of the overhead panel.
Settings are; Off - Intermittent - Low - High. The wiper arms have a relatively low radius of movement (compared to your car's windscreen wipers) and don't traverse the entire screen.

tdracer
26th Jan 2020, 18:50
I wonder if the 'gear down' dates back to the 767 first flight experience - when they retracted the gear on the 767 first flight the nose gear sheared a hydraulic line. They quickly put the gear back down before they lost that hydraulic system, but they flew the balance of the first flight with one hydraulic system inop (apparently they'd identified the nose gear issue prior to first flight, and installed a re-designed part - but the paperwork hadn't caught up and the new bracket was identified as a non-conformance and replaced with the original part prior to flight - oops :sad:).

To elaborate a bit on what Pilot DAR posted - CPR basically says that anything that is being changed relative to the original cert basis needs to meet the latest regulation. There is precious little common between the original 777 and the 777X (new wing, engines, most avionics, even the fuselage structure has been changed) so it may not be a complete new cert to the latest regs, but it's close.

Auxtank
26th Jan 2020, 20:04
Good point td,
I think Boeing are rather conservative when it comes to First Flight Test Procedures.
What's worked in the past - works now - will work... sort of mentality.

I know Airbus do it differently - in fact they see it as a matter of principle (perhaps as a re-asurrance to on-looking customers and pax) that the gear goes up in a timely fashion - but old procedures, old and tried and tested lists and actions to get a new frame flying good; are the progenitors of Redundancy - when you've done the procedure so many times...

Airbus' early gear up on first flight wasn't necessarily a two-finger salute to Boeing - doesn't mean the aircraft is any safer, any better...
Just means the boffins at the drawing boards have reckoned efficiency is better on initial tests with gear retracted and worth the risk...

Neither's right, neither's wrong. Horses for courses.

Longtimer
26th Jan 2020, 20:24
But five hours with the gear down ?????????????
Looking at the Boeing flight tracker site, the entire mission was done at relatively low speeds. Mostly under 350KPH.

Auxtank
26th Jan 2020, 20:32
Looking at the Boeing flight tracker site, the entire mission was done at relatively low speeds. Mostly under 350KPH.

With the gear down - it would be...
Under 270 KIAS actually...(and probably well under that..)

Longtimer
26th Jan 2020, 20:38
With the gear down - it would be...
Under 270 KIAS actually...(and probably well under that..)
Thanks, I know that limit is for gear extension but was curious as to what the max operating speed would be with the gear staying down. Mind you flight tracker is not always completely accurate. Thanks

Cough
26th Jan 2020, 20:44
I wondered how much they increase Vr for safety? It's noticeable that the front wheel of the MLG rises prior to rotation (I imagine for two reasons - The wing was ready and also the semi levered landing gear is ready to give it a shove off the ground) it just left me wondering what the margin is?

DaveReidUK
26th Jan 2020, 22:05
Thanks, I know that limit is for gear extension but was curious as to what the max operating speed would be with the gear staying down. Mind you flight tracker is not always completely accurate.

Even if it's accurate, it won't give you KIAS or KTAS, only groundspeed.

Longtimer
26th Jan 2020, 23:26
I wondered how much they increase Vr for safety? It's noticeable that the front wheel of the MLG rises prior to rotation (I imagine for two reasons - The wing was ready and also the semi levered landing gear is ready to give it a shove off the ground) it just left me wondering what the margin is?
I had read somewhere that there concerns with the added length causing tail strikes and then in another article is was pointed out that the new wing had better lift so perhaps that is why the main gear lifted first.

Smilin_Ed
27th Jan 2020, 17:22
"You can bet if an engine failure occurred on takeoff they would have raised the gear."

In military test pilot schools, it is taught that you keep the gear down while going through all the other tests that must be done on first flights. As for what to do if you lose an engine on a first flight, they were probably pretty light so they might not pull it up even then. Just my thinking. In any case gear movement is a massive thing. The KISS principle applies. Keep It Simple, Stupid.

krismiler
28th Jan 2020, 06:27
Boeing sees the new 777X as a ray of hope, but it emerged from the same culture of cutting corners and coverups that gave us the MAX crisis.

https://www.ccn.com/i-would-never-fly-boeings-new-777x/

stilton
28th Jan 2020, 08:35
Thanks, I know that limit is for gear extension but was curious as to what the max operating speed would be with the gear staying down. Mind you flight tracker is not always completely accurate. Thanks


Boeing no longer has separate limiting speeds for gear retraction/ extension/ extended as they did in the past


They have standardized on 270/.82 for all three

RexBanner
28th Jan 2020, 08:59
Boeing no longer has separate limiting speeds for gear retraction/ extension/ extended as they did in the past


They have standardized on 270/.82 for all three

Have they announced what speed this beauty is going to cruise at yet?

3Greens
30th Jan 2020, 21:49
Have they announced what speed this beauty is going to cruise at yet?
they wonít know for sure until the flight testing programme is complete.

tdracer
30th Jan 2020, 23:39
Have they announced what speed this beauty is going to cruise at yet?
Pretty sure the target is Mach 0.84 - 0.85, but as 3Greens notes, the flight test results will be the final determination.