JQ563 BNE-MEL 13/01/20

[TwoFiftyBelowTen]

JQ563 BNE-MEL (ETA 12:20) today diverted to AVV “to onload fuel” due to excessive delay into MEL.
Pax and baggage were offloaded and bussed to Tullamarine, arrived 3:45pm. But empty aircraft was ferried to MEL arrived 2:14pm. Anyone know why pax couldn’t go in the plane?

[Lapon]

I can't comment on this flight, but in my outfit it's not unsual for the cabin crew to run out of hours in a disrupt. Solution is usually to ferry the aircraft empty.

[Checklist Charlie]

Anyone know why pax couldn’t go in the plane?
Have a think about some of the weight limitations on a very short flight sector.
CC

[wheels_down]

A321 full load such a short hop would be interesting to see some performance numbers vs empty. Where would a diversion point be? LST? ADL?

Emirates recently did a AVV-MEL hop A380. But in saying that, by the time they re fuel and gain a new landing time due delays, and it’s Melbourne so could be anything from 1-3 hours, it’s probably better to just get rid of the pax rather than keeping them onboard for near 2 hours.

Crew hours should not be much of an issue here, this specific duty appears to have a sign on at 6am.

This aircraft was being used in and out of Sydney tonight and it’s on the last 10pm out so they don’t have much leeway if they are behind.

[Angle of Attack]

It’s MEL, basketcase of additional 1 hour holding should be mandated in the CAR’s just for this pathetic airport.

[Green.Dot]

Have a think about some of the weight limitations on a very short flight sector.
CC

I have thought about it. What do you mean exactly? Landing weight would be the only limiting weight- how is this different to any other sector CC?

[cLeArIcE]

It’s MEL, basketcase of additional 1 hour holding should be mandated in the CAR’s just for this pathetic airport.
This.. Anyone arriving into Melbourne without a minimum of 40 minutes traffic (on a good wx, 2 runway day) needs their head examined.
Can't imagine any JQ pilot wanting to skimp on fuel at the moment either :}

[TimmyTee]

Both a QF and JQ had a fuel related turn back for Sydney in the space of 5 minutes yesterday afternoon. JQ maybe fair enough as they were International, but the QF was a syd-mel and the NOTAM was there all morning.

[C441]

Emirates recently did a AVV-MEL hop A380.
As did Qantas following a windshear warning and diversion from Melbourne a few months ago.
I'm not sure if they kept the punters onboard or sent them by bus to Tulla; the former I suspect due to Customs and Immigration requirements.

[maggot]

Both a QF and JQ had a fuel related turn back for Sydney in the space of 5 minutes yesterday afternoon. JQ maybe fair enough as they were International, but the QF was a syd-mel and the NOTAM was there all morning.
​​​​​​
the more diversions the better, will bring it to a head at the airlines - perhaps their bottom line will be able to drive some reform to this comically broken system.

[Sunfish]

Would the crew be doing landing checklists for YMEL before takeoff?

[clark y]

Sunfish,
To answer to your question, no, plenty of time in the holding pattern.

[wheels_down]

.
As did Qantas following a windshear warning and diversion from Melbourne a few months ago.
I'm not sure if they kept the punters onboard or sent them by bus to Tulla; the former I suspect due to Customs and Immigration requirements.
If that was the 787 then no they held them onboard.

Never seen anyone else offload at Avalon aside the star.

Virgin now has swissport at Avalon so can offload if need be.

[Going Nowhere]

.
As did Qantas following a windshear warning and diversion from Melbourne a few months ago.
I'm not sure if they kept the punters onboard or sent them by bus to Tulla; the former I suspect due to Customs and Immigration requirements.

Punters stayed onboard for that one.

[The Bullwinkle]

Have a think about some of the weight limitations on a very short flight sector.
CC
I’ve had a good think about it. Can’t see a single issue.
What was your point?

[Global Aviator]

Would the crew be doing landing checklists for YMEL before takeoff?

This was obviously a sarcastic question!!!

[morno]

I’ve had a good think about it. Can’t see a single issue.
What was your point?

Neither can I, they clearly don’t know what they’re talking about :ugh:

[Green.Dot]

Neither can I, they clearly don’t know what they’re talking about :ugh:

CC- I’m guessing spotter vs operator. Some of the stuff that gets made up on the spot on this site... 🤦🏼‍♂️3000hrs 320/321 and I’m pretty sure I would have found out about these “weight limitations on short sectors” that CC speaks of by now!

[Sunfish]

Deceased mate of mine (Max) claimed the shortest jet flight record - repositioning a TAA B727 from YMEN to YMMB when it opened. He alleges they indeed did their landing checks before takeoff.

[C441]

repositioning a TAA B727 from YMEN to YMMB when it opened
YMML I hope! :) If not, I'd love to have been at Moorabbin when that happened.

26 Essendon to 34 Tulla would have been fun in a 72.

[Capt Fathom]

the shortest jet flight record - repositioning a TAA B727 from YMEN to YMML

Does a circuit count? :}

[Turnleft080]

Don't forget via the star SHEED-ASUKI-34

[Blueskymine]

CC- I’m guessing spotter vs operator. Some of the stuff that gets made up on the spot on this site... 🤦🏼‍♂️3000hrs 320/321 and I’m pretty sure I would have found out about these “weight limitations on short sectors” that CC speaks of by now!

I’ll double you. However it’s been 8 years since I flew an A321.

However back of the barmat figures. 200+ punters is around 20T

Empty weights for a 321 are around 55T. (From memory they are a bit heavier than that). Landing weight from memory was around 77T.

Chuck on 3 tonne for your arrival fuel and there’s your landing weight.

You wouldn’t want to go Melbourne min fuel. Add the 40 min traffic holding that was NOTAM’d yesterday and you’re out of luck.

[Blueskymine]

Sunfish,
To answer to your question, no, plenty of time in the holding pattern.

Hahaha and so true

[morno]

I’ll double you. However it’s been 8 years since I flew an A321.

However back of the barmat figures. 200+ punters is around 20T

Empty weights for a 321 are around 55T. (From memory they are a bit heavier than that). Landing weight from memory was around 77T.

Chuck on 3 tonne for your arrival fuel and there’s your landing weight.

You wouldn’t want to go Melbourne min fuel. Add the 40 min traffic holding that was NOTAM’d yesterday and you’re out of luck.

But it’s the same for any flight, the landing weight is going to be approximately the same. Just because it’s a short flight doesn’t make it any heavier

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

Empty weight of an A321 is 50T, no issues whatsoever.

[Blueskymine]

But it’s the same for any flight, the landing weight is going to be approximately the same. Just because it’s a short flight doesn’t make it any heavier

Yes, but when you’re up around the landing weight for a normal flight and you divert to a close destination like say Avalon, you can’t put much gas on for the recovery.

So the landing weight would have played a part in it.

[Blueskymine]

Empty weight of an A321 is 50T, no issues whatsoever.

Well call it 50T

230 punters = 23T

Company fuel would be 3T for arrival.

Chuck in flight fuel 1T.

traffic 1.5T

Suddenly you’re blasting off and needing to hold to land. Regardless of traffic.

The min weight of a 321 is 47500kg. With crew, catering, equipment, cans etc it’d be well over 50T.

[ECAMACTIONSCOMPLETE]

Well call it 50T

230 punters = 23T

Company fuel would be 3T for arrival.

Chuck in flight fuel 1T.

traffic 1.5T

Suddenly you’re blasting off and needing to hold to land. Regardless of traffic.

The min weight of a 321 is 47500kg. With crew, catering, equipment, cans etc it’d be well over 50T.

going off old flight plans, a fully loaded A321 has ZFW of around 71T. Max LW is 77.8T

so you can arrived overhead with 6 tonne, around 2 hours endurance, no issues.

How do you think we carry tempo/alternate fuel??

[Flingwing47]

But I’m sure they would do the landing briefing

[Blueskymine]

going off old flight plans, a fully loaded A321 has ZFW of around 71T. Max LW is 77.8T

so you can arrived overhead with 6 tonne, around 2 hours endurance, no issues.

How do you think we carry tempo/alternate fuel??

I’ve got 6000 hours on type. Anytime you diverted, the landing weight was always the issue when you gassed up for another go. As generally you flew around with a full pax load and fuel on arrival was always landing weight limited. Especially for any transcontinental or when you stretched it’s legs.

[Capt Fathom]

We'll call it a draw shall we....!

[Green.Dot]

I’ve got 6000 hours on type. Anytime you diverted, the landing weight was always the issue when you gassed up for another go. As generally you flew around with a full pax load and fuel on arrival was always landing weight limited. Especially for any transcontinental or when you stretched it’s legs.

Exactly- landing weight will be the limiting performance factor on ANY short leg, whether it be 10 mins flying time, or 1 hour. Hardly limiting for a flight from YMAV to YMML even with Tempo holding...

[Lookleft]

Sunfish if you are doing the job properly there are obvious reasons why you can’t do your landing checklist before you takeoff. Doing your landing briefing before takeoff is an entirely different part of the operation. Haven’t done the sector for a while but ATC would issue the STAR into SYD when issuing the SID out of CBR. The sector from AVV to MEL is not a challenge for a competent crew. If it’s a ferry then you don’t even bother using the AP.

[The Bullwinkle]

Yes, but when you’re up around the landing weight for a normal flight and you divert to a close destination like say Avalon, you can’t put much gas on for the recovery.

So the landing weight would have played a part in it.
Rubbish!!!

[Derfred]

I’m going to have to go back to flight school.

Because I don’t understand how you are more landing weight limited on a short sector than a longer one. Surely you can gas to MLW at destination and arrive with the same fuel as on a longer leg, or do I need to go back to school?

[AHDOCHARRY]

Im sure loosing the passengers would just make the whole diversion easier for the crew, guessing they would need to wait for a new MEL Harmony slot, 40mins plus traffic holding and most likely 20 pax would want to come off in AVV as they live in point cook then need to find their bags that would take 40 more mins. The pax most likely got to Melbourne quicker than the aircraft did flying empty.

[LapSap]

It’s MEL, basketcase of additional 1 hour holding should be mandated in the CAR’s just for this pathetic airport.

Not 100% au fait with ATFM in Oz now but with GDP and CTOTs running for Tulla, you still get 40-60 min holding???? That’s ridiculous.
I assume you’re CTOT compliant?
Are they over estimating the airport acceptance rate or underestimating the demand??

[VH-ABC]

A quick query for the Airbus 321 experts here.. what is the max taxi speed? Taxiing down Tango for departure runway 34R in SYD in my 737, and every knot less than 30 sucks the life out of me, but the drivers of these 321’s regularly sit on 15-20 knots.

[Rated De]

Could it be simply that a couple of professional pilots decided that "company offered fuel" offers a way to demonstrate their disgust?
Are they still in contractual dispute at Jetstar?

Melbourne sounds the perfect dysfunctional airport to remind management that engaged pilots are far more an asset than they like to believe...

[Green.Dot]

Yes, but when you’re up around the landing weight for a normal flight and you divert to a close destination like say Avalon, you can’t put much gas on for the recovery.

So the landing weight would have played a part in it.

Just like ANY sector!! Hardly limiting in the AV-ML case!

[Green.Dot]

A quick query for the Airbus 321 experts here.. what is the max taxi speed? Taxiing down Tango for departure runway 34R in SYD in my 737, and every knot less than 30 sucks the life out of me, but the drivers of these 321’s regularly sit on 15-20 knots.

15-20 knots might just be “disgruntled employee speed”! But in seriousness it may just be that there was a big queue for 34R and they were taxiing more slowly. No point racing down there at 30kts just to sit there in gridlock

[Sparrows.]

A quick query for the Airbus 321 experts here.. what is the max taxi speed? Taxiing down Tango for departure runway 34R in SYD in my 737, and every knot less than 30 sucks the life out of me, but the drivers of these 321’s regularly sit on 15-20 knots.

Max speed 30. But can’t ride the brakes like a 737, cause you’re worried about brake temps.

Correct technique is to brake down to 10kts, and allow it to accelerate slowly back to 30, then repeat. Most drivers will only brake down to 20kts, some 15.

[John Citizen]

Taxiing down Tango for departure runway 34R in SYD in my 737, and every knot less than 30 sucks the life out of me

Nothing sucks the life out of me is people who use excessive thrust to accelerate to taxi, and then sit on 30 knots riding the brakes. As someone else said, no point if there is a long queue at the holding point anyway.

This is the correct technique from an Airbus manual On long, straight taxiways, and with no ATC or other ground traffic constraints, the PF should allow the aircraft to accelerate to 30 kt, and should then use one smooth brake application to decelerate to 10 kt. The PF should avoid continuous brake applications.


If some people really find it so unbearable to sit in the cockpit an extra 1 or 2 minutes because they might have to taxi a bit slower, then maybe they should seriously consider a career change. Will an extra 1or 2 minutes taxiing really have such an impact on your day ?

Either follow the published procedure or get another career.

[Capn Bloggs]

A quick query for the Airbus 321 experts here.. what is the max taxi speed? Taxiing down Tango for departure runway 34R in SYD in my 737, and every knot less than 30 sucks the life out of me, but the drivers of these 321’s regularly sit on 15-20 knots.
Thread-hijack of the year! :D

[VH-ABC]

Yep... apologies for stealing the direction! Just a quick conversation piece as I’ve seen it a couple of times lately where no queue down the end, and nobody on final 34R... back to my rain-delayed big bash!

[Paddleboat]

Yep... apologies for stealing the direction! Just a quick conversation piece as I’ve seen it a couple of times lately where no queue down the end, and nobody on final 34R... back to my rain-delayed big bash!
Disregard, asked and answered I see.

[Bula]

A320/1 Brake temps on 34R are a real issue at heavy weights or strong northerly winds.

the problem is, if you follow the Airbus recommendation and accelerate to 30 kts, then brake to 10, you will hit your brake temp limit, guaranteed.

I find only allowing the bus to go to 20 kts, then slowing her down to a couple of knots prevents this as brake energy absorption is exponential the faster you go.

[Capn Bloggs]

then slowing her down
Getting a little close to what is basically a computer, Bula! :E

[Buster Hyman]

A quick query for the Airbus 321 experts here.. what is the max taxi speed?
I see where you're going with this, but the Western Ring Road is a nightmare at any time of the day with all the road works for the West Gate tunnel....

[Look Mum - no hands]

Maybe we're overthinking this - it's less than an hour's drive AV - ML. If the busses were available in reasonable time, then the pax and bags are delivered to ML say 90 minutes after landing at AV. Take the "guaranteed" option in a similar timeframe to flying them up, without all the associated refuelling / weather / ATC uncertainties?