View Full Version : China ... has turned
Xi Ping
11th Jan 2020, 13:45
Well its seems that the market in China has gone bust to expats.
China Eastern in Nov said they will not renew any foreign Capts.
Most ex-pats in China are with some part of HNA Group and they have been having issues for ages.
Now Yangsee River (Suprama) has let go all expats,
HNA now paying ex-pats on local terms
BCA new contract is sign it, or we put you in the sim for a check.
West Air new contract with paycut
Guillin no recruitment and letting go
Lucky getting rid of all A320s.... what next
Chengdu .. not recruited for a year
Sichuan .. no recruitment.
fuelsurvey
11th Jan 2020, 18:28
I’m a victim too. Lost my job along with more than half the foreigners at my HNA airline.
The ones that are left are the last we’ll see of foreign pilots in China. Maybe a couple of years remain for the few that are left.
Fred4000
12th Jan 2020, 06:14
Why is this happening? It’s a very sudden change... Can they just change your contracts when they please?
streetguy
12th Jan 2020, 07:42
Why is this happening? It’s a very sudden change... Can they just change your contracts when they please?
yes, apparently.
safelife
12th Jan 2020, 08:44
Tianjin, not recruiting, waiting for financial bailout, considering options
LongTimeInCX
12th Jan 2020, 14:18
Any idea about China Southern?
They seemed to have hired plenty of expats over recent years.
Are they letting their expat pilots go too, or reducing T&C's?
mach85
12th Jan 2020, 14:51
Any idea about China Southern?
They seemed to have hired plenty of expats over recent years.
Are they letting their expat pilots go too, or reducing T&C's?
No info so far. Although they don’t seem at all worried when guys resign, which is happening a great deal recently.
They did however stop recruiting NTR pilots from January which was pretty unexpected given that the majority of the guys joining were actually NTR. That says something I believe.
Some agents have said they are expecting some ‘big news’(whatever that means) after CNY so watch this space......
Xi Ping
13th Jan 2020, 08:17
BCA, which used to be one of better companies, I am understood to have told pilots that they sign new contract or get a sim ride !
CSA, always offered NTR but them most guys left after failing or realised that they were going to be a Cruise captain for a min of 3 years. The poster boys Aussies are long term and been there decades, it changed for new joiners.
NoodleDriver
14th Jan 2020, 01:42
China Eastern in Nov said they will not renew any foreign Capts.
No such announcement was made at all. The only change was a age 60 retirement for foreigners is now in effect.
No change to contracts and or working Conditons either.... HNA group has been suffering alot financially that encompasses many of the airlines listed in the thread and could explain why many are changing T and C.
CES has not recruited in three years and not replaced anyone who has left in that time.
There is no message that we are not needed but we are not being replaced. So go figure...
The only thing constant about China is change.
CW247
14th Jan 2020, 07:05
There is a lot of weirdness and strangeness about Chinese aviation and airline practices but every day I hear a lot of unsubstantiated and child-like BS rumors about what is happening in China..One guy gets the chop at some stage of the recruitment or renewal process and that gets translated as some big hoohaa coming to bite the rest of us in the ass. "Oh, but he was a trainer in Europe!" "oh but he has 20,000 hours" or "he was such a nice guy, If they fired him they will fire us!". It doesn't matter, he had a bad day, and it was game over. A certain demographic of foreign pilots with their big circle always finds something to moan and and create negativity about. I've seen it first hand. Several agencies are still hiring for at least 4 different Chinese companies as we speak. They are renewing their adverts on many sites including FlightGlobal.com
mach85
14th Jan 2020, 09:51
There is a lot of weirdness and strangeness about Chinese aviation and airline practices but every day I hear a lot of unsubstantiated and child-like BS rumors about what is happening in China..One guy gets the chop at some stage of the recruitment or renewal process and that gets translated as some big hoohaa coming to bite the rest of us in the ass. "Oh, but he was a trainer in Europe!" "oh but he has 20,000 hours" or "he was such a nice guy, If they fired him they will fire us!". It doesn't matter, he had a bad day, and it was game over. A certain demographic of foreign pilots with their big circle always finds something to moan and and create negativity about. I've seen it first hand. Several agencies are still hiring for at least 4 different Chinese companies as we speak. They are renewing their adverts on many sites including FlightGlobal.com
There would in fact appear to be many inaccuracies in the original post......
As the post above said, no such memo sent in CEA stating they won’t renew any expats.
Nobody in HNA yet on local contracts.......only talk.
Sichuan airlines actively hiring apparently.
Suparna still have expats actively flying.
So China might be a quirky place but as CW said, lets try and stick to the facts.
Xi Ping
14th Jan 2020, 10:06
SPEAK TO Guys at China eastern, maybe not an announcement but being let go and no renewals.
CSA has recruits in last 3 years, and has had many failures.
BCA pilots told sign new contract or face consequences
WA new contract , pilots being forced onto with loss up to $38k per annum.
sichuan claim to be recruiting but have not done so.
adverts by agencies mean nothing, and many offer what is not there to attract when in fact there are no jobs.
facts ....
Xi Ping
14th Jan 2020, 10:07
Suprama, pilots told to sign local contract or go by 31 Dec.
S speed
14th Jan 2020, 12:13
SPEAK TO Guys at China eastern, maybe not an announcement but being let go and no renewals.
CSA has recruits in last 3 years, and has had many failures.
BCA pilots told sign new contract or face consequences
WA new contract , pilots being forced onto with loss up to $38k per annum.
sichuan claim to be recruiting but have not done so.
adverts by agencies mean nothing, and many offer what is not there to attract when in fact there are no jobs.
facts ....
I personally know someone who has been invited for a Sichuan interview last month.
Tomazz
14th Jan 2020, 18:53
S speed, good that Sichuan invited Your friend last month. Tell me when Your friend will start training. I was invited long time ago also....
BAe 146-100
14th Jan 2020, 20:10
As always take rumours with a pinch of salt, advertising jobs and being invited is not a good indication of actual hiring in China. They do this constantly with guys having big delays during the process or in some cases cancelling of start dates. In China anything and everything can happen at their discretion at any start of the process.
China has definitely turned: on the list of airlines not hiring anymore don't forget Xiamen Air, which was one of the biggest in terms of expats community.
As mach85 said, CSA stopped recruiting NTRs...how many rated guys will they get now? doesn't seems to be a problem for them since they keep failing people (even at initial type ratings) and they do nothing to stop pilots from resign. The rsp deal is basically over (especially on 777fleet) with no new assignment even with plenty "official" slots available.
Talking with a famous recruiter, I was told that a (named here) airline will get rid of foreigners over the next 12months or so.
Having said that, we all know that market in China is very unstable and everything can change again very rapidly... since most of the time those massive recruitments are even based on market figures, but on personal decisions of some so called "leader / manager".
The Dominican
14th Jan 2020, 22:53
Had a few pints with a good friend last night that is now at CSA, he said no hiring and guys are not only leaving, but also failed left and right on medicals and sim checks! He described it as a minefield where you are just waiting your turn to trigger the next mine! It's incredible that they are so shortsighted (well, not really) if they want to continue the growth of their aviation market it's not the most intelligent policy to react on market outlooks for the next 90 days, they should be looking ahead at the next decade!
NoodleDriver
15th Jan 2020, 17:28
SPEAK TO Guys at China eastern, maybe not an announcement but being let go and no renewals.
CSA has recruits in last 3 years, and has had many failures.
BCA pilots told sign new contract or face consequences
WA new contract , pilots being forced onto with loss up to $38k per annum.
sichuan claim to be recruiting but have not done so.
adverts by agencies mean nothing, and many offer what is not there to attract when in fact there are no jobs.
facts ....
I am at China Eastern... No one had been let go.
One guy quit recently he had enough and left on his own accord and is in fact looking at transferring to CS.
The onky people not renewed were and are the 60 Yr old guys.. And it was never truly guaranteed they could work past that when they all accepted the job so there is no reason to make a deal out of that
MR chairman I must ask what's your vested interest in all of this?
Eric Janson
1st Feb 2020, 08:50
No comments here about the latest Chinese health pandemic. What are people experiencing at their company? Any rumors about what your company will do with foreigners or even locals due to the upcoming decline in airline travel? I know it's too soon but I think for many of us who just joined, it's obvious. Being at the bottom of the list I fear for my future here. Any thoughts of your own?
My guess is that this will decimate the Chinese Airline industry as more and more flights are cancelled. Expats will be the first to go if there are staff cuts. That seems inevitable at this point imho.
Given the deteriorating situation in China - I'd be on the first flight out if I was working there.
I wouldn't want to get stuck in China and the options to leave are getting less every day.
fuelsurvey
1st Feb 2020, 10:36
Mandatory indefinite leave of absence of at least two airlines. Probably most will do the same.
Yes I just heard it's official at Beijing Capital and Tinjian Airlines (others in HNA group too?). Foreign pilots put on unpaid leave or a $200 per day retainer. "Force Majeure" is being used. I wonder where that leaves the pilots contractually? They can surely just leave without a notice period if they want to if the company is forcing the reduced pay?
The Dominican
3rd Feb 2020, 14:47
The rumor mill is saying that CSA, all pilots have been sent home, leave without pay?.?? True?
The rumor mill is saying that CSA, all pilots have been sent home, leave without pay?.?? True?
Very true...maybe a good excuse to get rid of some of them!
Python27
3rd Feb 2020, 19:19
SPEAK TO Guys at China eastern, maybe not an announcement but being let go and no renewals.
CSA has recruits in last 3 years, and has had many failures.
BCA pilots told sign new contract or face consequences
WA new contract , pilots being forced onto with loss up to $38k per annum.
sichuan claim to be recruiting but have not done so.
adverts by agencies mean nothing, and many offer what is not there to attract when in fact there are no jobs.
facts ....
"Good n old" fishing. For a long time I thought that lawyers were filthy. Then I met the brokers...
Stallone
4th Feb 2020, 02:14
Hainan airlines implemented NPL of at least two months for expat pilots with immediate effect
TheAirMission
4th Feb 2020, 17:29
does anyone have a copy of the company letters that are being sent out regarding pilots being instructed to go home without pay?
does anyone have a copy of the company letters that are being sent out regarding pilots being instructed to go home without pay?
you have PM
For once the rumours are true.
Foxxster
6th Feb 2020, 03:15
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/transport/article/3049239/coronavirus-china-southern-hainan-airlines-among-crisis
chattur
6th Feb 2020, 06:01
Hello could anyone share what are the local terms are salary and leave.
thx
Local terms for what/ Unpaid leave/ have you read the posts!!!!
Hello could anyone share what are the local terms are salary and leave.
thx
roster is fixed 30/30 (30 off/30 off), salary 0$/month + annual safety bonus (0$).
They are desperate for pilots.
krismiler
9th Feb 2020, 00:54
Expats are always the first to get the chop in a down turn, converting to local terms may well secure your position, it’s not unreasonable to ask what local terms are. If they aren’t too far behind, such as Singapore Airlines for example, then greater job security might swing it for some people.
This crisis will end eventually and things should ramp up again reasonably quickly.
cdeanda
9th Feb 2020, 01:43
Local terms for what/ Unpaid leave/ have you read the posts!!!!
I guess he is asking due to the many mentions in this thread about companies asking expats to sign local contracts (HNA, Suparna, etc.)
WYOMINGPILOT
10th Feb 2020, 12:27
All things will eventually end. Doubtful they will ever be able to attract and recruit suitable candidates in the future now after this latest furlough round.
https://simpleflying.com/foreign-pilots-placed-on-unpaid-leave-in-china/
safelife
10th Feb 2020, 16:58
Doubtful they will require any. No foreign pilots for the next one to two years is the latest gossip.
krismiler
11th Feb 2020, 08:35
Money talks and memories are short, if the Chinese airlines dangle a big enough carrot they’ll soon have people applying when this has died down.
Eric Janson
11th Feb 2020, 09:46
Sorry but the above comment is based on what? oh yeah, gossip. Chinese society will start to get back to normal (in terms of open shops, roads, venues) in under a month. Max flight schedules possibly 3 months. In about 6 months, it will be like nothing happened. The Chinese cannot survive like this and the CPC knows they need to get everyone back to their jobs. With that, air travel will slowly start to return to normal.
I think you need to change months to years. This is just getting started imho.
The situation in China is clearly out of control - plenty of videos online that back that up.
Their delayed and ineffective response has allowed this virus to spread globally. The WHO is finally starting to admit the truth after spending the last month pandering to the Chinese.
A team from the CDC has not been allowed to travel to China - the only thing that makes sense is that allowing them in will expose the true extent of the situation.
The published figures are just the tip of the iceberg - probably limited by the number of tests/day their labs can handle. They are not testing people who died outside their hospitals - so they are not being counted in the published figures.
What is happening on the Diamond Princess gives a good indication of what is probably taking place in Chinese cities.
The economic impact of this should not be underestimated - I would expect severe supply chain problems globally with all the associated knock-on effects.
Roti Canai
16th Feb 2020, 08:53
Not sure I would trust this after whats been posted on this thread,
https://jobs.flightglobal.com/job/1401523233/excellent-new-a320-contract-lucrative-packages-and-bases-in-lovely-coastal-cities/?TrackID=410421&utm_source=jbe&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=DateUnknown&BatchID=2963&JobAlertId=1509961400
safelife
16th Feb 2020, 11:19
These ads are pre-ordered months ahead... I'm sure you can disregard any ads for Chinese carriers at this time.
WYOMINGPILOT
21st Feb 2020, 21:21
To make matters worse the CAAC has now mandated all Chinese airlines take the furloughed Chinese pilots mostly from Hainan and incorporate them into their companies. It is said to be around 1500 pilots. Expats may not be required for a long time in China and when they do start up again don’t expect the same salaries many have been accustomed to. Long term China will do just fine but throughout 2020 I would speculate the need for pilots, especially high costing expensive Foreign Expat Pilots will not be required. Even the domestic carriers have slashed their flight schedules to 25% of pre-coronavirus standards.
bringbackthe80s
22nd Feb 2020, 05:35
It will be very interesting indeed to see what kind of people the Chinese will be able to recruit when all goes back to normal and they need those 124.000 pilots in the next few years.
mach85
22nd Feb 2020, 07:50
To make matters worse the CAAC has now mandated all Chinese airlines take the furloughed Chinese pilots mostly from Hainan and incorporate them into their companies. It is said to be around 1500 pilots. Expats may not be required for a long time in China and when they do start up again don’t expect the same salaries many have been accustomed to. Long term China will do just fine but throughout 2020 I would speculate the need for pilots, especially high costing expensive Foreign Expat Pilots will not be required. Even the domestic carriers have slashed their flight schedules to 25% of pre-coronavirus standards.
Hey Wyoming,
Have you heard that part about the rest of the Chinese airlines absorbing the laid off HNA locals for a fact of just rumoured at the moment?
I mean it makes sense just wondering whether you have heard it from an official source yet or still just hearsay?
Thanks
The Dominican
22nd Feb 2020, 12:05
Just like with SARS, the world is ending now, and just like with SARS, when temperature hits 20c or above consistently, this will disappear just as fast.
Then the Prophets of Doom can move on to the next cataclysm.
fuelsurvey
22nd Feb 2020, 13:51
Just like with SARS, the world is ending now, and just like with SARS, when temperature hits 20c or above consistently, this will disappear just as fast.
Then the Prophets of Doom can move on to the next cataclysm.
I don’t think anyone is saying that the world is ending.
It’s pretty clear that demand for air travel in China will be diminished for a period of time.
it’s been pretty obvious that China would prefer not to have to rely on foreign pilots.
This makes it the perfect time to rid themselves of foreign pilots once and for all.
WYOMINGPILOT
28th Feb 2020, 01:16
It’s not just China anymore which has turned downwards. Finn Air just announced furloughs. United Airlines is contemplating furloughs due to deep cutbacks in Asian flying and reduced domestic demand. In Hong Kong all carriers have announced Leave without pay programs. Just the tip of the iceberg Sadly. https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/Coronavirus-threatens-to-push-Asian-airlines-into-bankruptcy
CW247
28th Feb 2020, 13:20
There are still a handful of Chinese companies (not HNAG) who have not put staff on unpaid leave. I hate to say it but they are displaying a bit of wisdom here. It takes a year to get new foreign pilots online. By forcing unpaid leave, they risk losing too many people for when this is all over.
WYOMINGPILOT
28th Feb 2020, 20:57
Yea it’s truly below 20C in Singapore. LMAO. https://edition.cnn.com/asia/live-news/coronavirus-outbreak-02-28-20-intl-hnk/h_5ff583c30eac0960f5c7ee7d11fe8586
Just like with SARS, the world is ending now, and just like with SARS, when temperature hits 20c or above consistently, this will disappear just as fast.
Then the Prophets of Doom can move on to the next cataclysm.
hamil
28th Feb 2020, 21:29
Yea it’s truly below 20C in Singapore. LMAO
Have you been to any mall or movie theater in Singapore? :p:}
WYOMINGPILOT
29th Feb 2020, 00:07
Have you been to any mall or movie theater in Singapore? :p:}
No, as they won’t allow my kind to set foot in their kingdom. Though I am certain it looks like this.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1370/4fd1f378_b071_4d37_a656_dbb2642a3367_0fabdd227a872b8e6f20431 3a906948c1a183133.jpeg
The Dominican
25th Mar 2020, 00:13
No, as they won’t allow my kind to set foot in their kingdom. Though I am certain it looks like this.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1370/4fd1f378_b071_4d37_a656_dbb2642a3367_0fabdd227a872b8e6f20431 3a906948c1a183133.jpeg
It is a known fact that this virus has a lesser life span on surfaces in warm weather, that is exactly what helped during SARS (Also a Coronavirus) and it is what scientists expect to happen here, nobody has said that it doesn’t affect warm weather countries as well. But if the virus has less capabilities to survive on surfaces it works on our favor. And no! people in Singapore are out and about, but everyone is trying to maintain social distance and maintaining proper care like everywhere else, I was there a couple of days ago and headed out there tomorrow.
The only bad thing for my trip this time around is that the government ordered that crews are not to leave their hotels. So room service for me!
safelife
29th Mar 2020, 15:48
https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/c1AG9JYTmvSIgfZLxGpJKA
WYOMINGPILOT
30th Mar 2020, 14:53
Was in Guangzhou yesterday and flew through Southern China. The airport is a ghost town. The government funded routes are just a drop in the bucket to keep a few planes subsidised and in the air at $10 a flight. The airspace is almost vacant in South China. No flow control, start 45 minutes early and cleared for immediate takeoff whenever you want. Planes stacked up everywhere on every conceivable nook and cranny. This is far from normal. This is a long term hole to dig out from. The people are still wearing masks, rarely go to restaurants for eat in and malls and shops are like ghost towns. Far from normal. The prevailing attitude is cautiously optimism but it’s a long haul to get back to normal. All the factories started up for a week or two then realised all their orders had cancelled and a sluggish cancellation of orders and no future sales so many have closed down again.
QUOTE=CW247;10731636]There is some positivity in the Chinese domestic market. Many small/thin routes are paid for by the government and continued flying over the last month anyway, but now a little more demand is kicking in for the usual busy routes.
BUT. China has now banned any foreign nationals (even those with a resident permit) from coming in. Even employees of Chinese companies. Only duty crew and diplomats allowed.
A few Chinese companies retained their foreigners without unpaid leave, and some of them are at home in their OFF weeks period. Tianjin and a few more airlines have done a recall for their foreign pilots starting next month. But with the restriction on travel to China, neither group of pilots will be coming back to China soon! This may create a temporary shortage of pilots now.[/QUOTE]