The French

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1332x1399/5dffc5e0_2128_41d1_aba7_27976a1074e0_fbd1aaed19e07a57ac8eade b2e00307ec9fe5d0e.jpeg

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Are the French refusing tankers back to the UK?

How friendly an act is that?


WWW

[Fly Aiprt]

Not sure what you are talking about, but what would relations between France and the US Air Force have to do with friendship between France and England ?

[Union Jack]

Not sure what you are talking about, but what would relations between France and the US Air Force have to do with friendship between France and England ?

Perhaps because the aircraft concerned are based in England....

Jack

[SASless]

The French shall always be the French.

They were not helpful when the USAF out of the UK knocked on Qadaffi's Door as you recall.

[esscee]

And they wonder why other people/nations sometimes consider them as not very helpful/unfriendly.

[MPN11]

I wish I understood what this Thread is about.

Is there evidence somewhere that FR denied use of their airspace, which is the only thing I can derive so far.

[Green Flash]

I saw these tankers coming out of Aviano and watched them via FR24 to somewhere north of Majorca. I think they then went on to somewhere near Rota and then I saw perhaps a couple of them later in the day over northern France northbound, presumably going back to Mildenhall (cant say for sure as I was otherwise occupied). I think some of the C17's have been tanking in the Western Med/Gib area and carrying on eastwards.

[Airbubba]

An Italian B-762 tanker and an RAF MRTT returning right now with two C-5's after action in the Middle East.


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1188x669/zz331_5f2536da6f310fe4e88a2ec7584d9b709f3143c5.jpg

[Airbubba]

Are the French refusing tankers back to the UK?

The combat MC-130J's are going across France on their return to Mildenhall so I doubt the Quid's would be refused passage.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1191x659/hooches_3_aa54df9dc5927904603d4769ce2cc983a8203664.jpg

[MPN11]

OK, so Ops Normal.

”Delete Subscription”

[Less Hair]

They were not helpful when the USAF out of the UK knocked on Qadaffi's Door as you recall.

In fact they were. This is why they had Galaxy air transport available when they needed it to move things south to Tchad right afterwards.

[Easy Street]

Another point to note is that many military transit sorties across Europe are done on standing clearances. These typically have constraints on them, e.g. on what cargoes can be carried, which operations can be directly or indirectly supported, etc. Where none of the standing clearances are applicable, an application has to be made for a specific clearance. This can sometimes be a rubber-stamp at office level (eg 'we want to carry 5% more ammunition than the standing clearance allows') but other times it could be ministerial or even presidential (eg 'we want to do something secret and we'll only tell the big boss what it is'). The latter takes a finite time and just asking the question could pose an OPSEC risk. So if there is an alternative (longer) way around that needs no special action then it can be quicker and safer just to fly that. And it avoids putting friendly air forces in a potentially difficult position.

[Last time I had cause to plan a transit, the French had a large selection of standing clearances on offer. The Swiss and Austrians (one of which would need to be crossed enroute from Aviano to Mildenhall on a direct route avoiding France) had none.]

[Una Due Tfc]

The French shall always be the French.

They were not helpful when the USAF out of the UK knocked on Qadaffi's Door as you recall.

They may have felt removing him would do more harm than good, just like they warned Saddam had no WMDs and removing him was a bad idea. Hindsight being 20/20 and all that, both opinions would appear to have had merit.

[SASless]

Less Hair.....which history book you reading from?

The French refused to let the F-111's cross French Territory adding 2600 miles to the Aardvark's flight on that raid.

They refused to allow flight in either direction....armed enroll to the target or void of bombs on the way back.

[Easy Street]

They may have felt removing him would do more harm than good, just like they warned Saddam had no WMDs and removing him was a bad idea. Hindsight being 20/20 and all that, both opinions would appear to have had merit.


Ironic then that it was Sarkozy (at the urging of Bernard-Henri Levy) who made all the running in 2011 with a reticent Obama reluctantly 'leading from behind' and David Cameron eagerly jumping aboard!

[wiggy]

The French shall always be the French.

Yep, they're being a bit French at the moment... I have no idea about the overflight stories but it is true that there is an inconvenient side to the French, you know, stuff like being an independent nation, getting on with Operation Barkhane, that sort of thing....though I must admit I do wish there was a bit less "en greve"

[megan]

They refused to allow flight in either direction....armed enroll to the target or void of bombs on the way backI would have thought it prudent not to be overflying residential areas whilst loaded for bear SAS, similarly going home they could be carrying hang ups.

[Airbubba]

Another point to note is that many military transit sorties across Europe are done on standing clearances.

Years ago I was flying down the Persian Gulf in an airliner and a U.S. military aircraft with a SAM callsign (89th Wing VIP flight out of Andrews AFB near Washington DC) was on the frequency. The controller (Bahrain?) gave the plane a direct that had him flying over Qatar. The SAM flight said they wanted to stay on the flight plan. The controller said that U.S. military flights request the shortcut all the time, it's not a problem. The SAM flight declined the reroute but thanked the controller.

I asked a colleague who flew right seat on Air Force One during the Clinton Administration why the SAM flight couldn't take the shortcut. He said that the SAM flights were considered 'state aircraft' even though they were military and required specific overflight clearance to go closer than 12 miles off the coast of another nation. Apparently a lot of effort is put into obtaining these clearances for each mission.

[DownWest]

Little footnote about the Libya raid:
I was standing outside my house in S. Portugal when a bunch of F111s went over very low and fast, heading south-east. Cutting the corner? Except that it was a couple of days after the strike. Never saw anything in the media about it.

[Bergerie1]

This from the BBC explains a little of the French psyche:-
BBC - Travel - Why the French love to say no (http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20190804-why-the-french-love-to-say-no)

[Hydromet]

...as opposed to the Japanese, who will often (usually?) say "Yes" when they mean "No", because they don't want to offend.

[Asturias56]

common habit in many non European countries... Indonesia, India etc etc

I was taught never to ask a question that can be answered Yes or No - so never "is this job finished?" rather "would you be kind enough to show me your progress on this job?"

[Party Animal]

SASLess - you’re obviously talking of the 1986 operation against Libya. I presume Less Hair is talking 2011?

[Less Hair]

No, I am not.

[Fly Aiprt]

Guys, your deep and unbiased knowledge of the psyche of other countries as well as recent history and military operations is to be commended.
A very enlighting conversation, respect to the OP...


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[SASless]

No, I am not.


Then you are quite mistaken!


https://media.defense.gov/2012/Aug/23/2001330097/-1/-1/0/Op%20El%20Dorado%20Canyon.pdf

[Less Hair]

You can connect the dots yourself. In a nutshell:
Strike package takes off from the UK in public view.
Elements still manage to arrive early over target and hit G's family.
Early french reports about secret overflight get silenced after hours.
French get preferred US treatment soon after.

[Alex Whittingham]

A question about the weapons systems; my memory from the time is that the ordinance was effectivey dropped ballistically on a lat and long, there being no laser target designators, yet the PDF above talks a lot about 'laser guided' Paveways. I also understood that several/most of the targets were missed, this was attributed by some to the Wermacht-produced maps of northern Libya not being aligned with WGS 84. Can anyone who knows more about this or remembers the raid better than I comment, please?

[SASless]

The PDF discusses the reasons for the misses and how the bombing was done following all sorts of systems failures. Did you miss that part?

[SASless]

Try this video.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn1hvyw3AQY

[Less Hair]

Ignore what you want.

[Alex Whittingham]

The PDF discusses the reasons for the misses and how the bombing was done following all sorts of systems failures. Did you miss that part? I did of course read the PDF carefully and it doesn't clearly say how the bombing was done to a non-bomber pilot. The video is more informative, thank you. I should have remembered the sort of smart-ass agression an innocent question sometimes gets on these forums.

[topgas]

Impressive bomb load on the A6 - two thirds the maximum load in the Vulcan

[Vonrichthoffen]

So, just having finished my shower, in CSE , an EI pilot comes into my room to ask me what is going on ? A mass launch at Upper Heyford could be heard from the open windows. Sticking my head out I see a holding pattern in the sky of contrails about 25,000' plus. Knowing there was no AAR training area above Oxford, I surmised an attack was being launched and forecast Tripoli. Said " we will know in the morning, or just before. Being blessed with the presence of Libyan Arab Airline pilots , who regaled in frivolity in the showers entailing large consumption of wet toilet paper ( hence the early shower ), not much used in the latrine I may add, I expected a large arrival of police/SB/5 just prior to any public broadcast of said prediction. Then we will know. On cue, a few hours later , in come the plod , and hay presto, a dearth of our beloved foreign colonial gentlemen friends from class the next day. Back to ' Plotting ' !

[fallmonk]

You can connect the dots yourself. In a nutshell:
Strike package takes off from the UK in public view.
Elements still manage to arrive early over target and hit G's family.
Early french reports about secret overflight get silenced after hours.
French get preferred US treatment soon after.
With regard to the French getting preferred treatment after the attack,
that might have been the US trying to appease the french since the ACCIDENTALLY bombed (or very near misses)there embassy on that raid in Tripoli!

[Airbubba]

Are the French refusing tankers back to the UK?

It appears that French airspace is being used by the QUID's as they transit from Rota back to Mildenhall. One of the USAF KC-135's just went across Brittany.

[Fly Aiprt]

It appears that French airspace is being used by the QUID's as they transit from Rota back to Mildenhall. One of the USAF KC-135's just went across Brittany.

What was the OP trying to do with his question ?
I noticed he's labelled as a moderator, why not move this thread to JB where it belongs ?

[T28B]

This thread has run its course and is now locked.