Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

The French

Old 3rd Jan 2020, 17:43
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: England
Posts: 14,567
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The French


Wee Weasley Welshman is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2020, 17:45
  #2 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: England
Posts: 14,567
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Are the French refusing tankers back to the UK?

How friendly an act is that?


WWW
Wee Weasley Welshman is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2020, 18:21
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: French Alps
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Not sure what you are talking about, but what would relations between France and the US Air Force have to do with friendship between France and England ?
Fly Aiprt is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2020, 15:30
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Location: Location!
Posts: 2,212
Received 6 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally Posted by Fly Aiprt View Post
Not sure what you are talking about, but what would relations between France and the US Air Force have to do with friendship between France and England ?
Perhaps because the aircraft concerned are based in England....

Jack
Union Jack is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2020, 16:25
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downeast
Age: 74
Posts: 17,769
Received 130 Likes on 51 Posts
The French shall always be the French.

They were not helpful when the USAF out of the UK knocked on Qadaffi's Door as you recall.
SASless is online now  
Old 4th Jan 2020, 16:38
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Freedom Sound
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
And they wonder why other people/nations sometimes consider them as not very helpful/unfriendly.
esscee is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2020, 17:24
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 78
Posts: 7,418
Received 6 Likes on 2 Posts
I wish I understood what this Thread is about.

Is there evidence somewhere that FR denied use of their airspace, which is the only thing I can derive so far.
MPN11 is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2020, 17:35
  #8 (permalink)  
Green Flash
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I saw these tankers coming out of Aviano and watched them via FR24 to somewhere north of Majorca. I think they then went on to somewhere near Rota and then I saw perhaps a couple of them later in the day over northern France northbound, presumably going back to Mildenhall (cant say for sure as I was otherwise occupied). I think some of the C17's have been tanking in the Western Med/Gib area and carrying on eastwards.
 
Old 4th Jan 2020, 17:46
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,899
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
An Italian B-762 tanker and an RAF MRTT returning right now with two C-5's after action in the Middle East.


Airbubba is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2020, 18:17
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,899
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Wee Weasley Welshman View Post
Are the French refusing tankers back to the UK?
The combat MC-130J's are going across France on their return to Mildenhall so I doubt the Quid's would be refused passage.





Airbubba is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2020, 18:28
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Often in Jersey, but mainly in the past.
Age: 78
Posts: 7,418
Received 6 Likes on 2 Posts
OK, so Ops Normal.

”Delete Subscription”
MPN11 is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2020, 18:39
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 696
Received 8 Likes on 6 Posts
They were not helpful when the USAF out of the UK knocked on Qadaffi's Door as you recall.
In fact they were. This is why they had Galaxy air transport available when they needed it to move things south to Tchad right afterwards.
Less Hair is online now  
Old 4th Jan 2020, 23:53
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Wherever it is this month
Posts: 1,689
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes on 3 Posts
Another point to note is that many military transit sorties across Europe are done on standing clearances. These typically have constraints on them, e.g. on what cargoes can be carried, which operations can be directly or indirectly supported, etc. Where none of the standing clearances are applicable, an application has to be made for a specific clearance. This can sometimes be a rubber-stamp at office level (eg 'we want to carry 5% more ammunition than the standing clearance allows') but other times it could be ministerial or even presidential (eg 'we want to do something secret and we'll only tell the big boss what it is'). The latter takes a finite time and just asking the question could pose an OPSEC risk. So if there is an alternative (longer) way around that needs no special action then it can be quicker and safer just to fly that. And it avoids putting friendly air forces in a potentially difficult position.

[Last time I had cause to plan a transit, the French had a large selection of standing clearances on offer. The Swiss and Austrians (one of which would need to be crossed enroute from Aviano to Mildenhall on a direct route avoiding France) had none.]

Last edited by Easy Street; 5th Jan 2020 at 00:37.
Easy Street is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2020, 00:22
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Róisín Dubh
Posts: 1,339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by SASless View Post
The French shall always be the French.

They were not helpful when the USAF out of the UK knocked on Qadaffi's Door as you recall.
They may have felt removing him would do more harm than good, just like they warned Saddam had no WMDs and removing him was a bad idea. Hindsight being 20/20 and all that, both opinions would appear to have had merit.
Una Due Tfc is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2020, 00:41
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Downeast
Age: 74
Posts: 17,769
Received 130 Likes on 51 Posts
Less Hair.....which history book you reading from?

The French refused to let the F-111's cross French Territory adding 2600 miles to the Aardvark's flight on that raid.

They refused to allow flight in either direction....armed enroll to the target or void of bombs on the way back.

SASless is online now  
Old 5th Jan 2020, 00:43
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Wherever it is this month
Posts: 1,689
Likes: 0
Received 10 Likes on 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Una Due Tfc View Post


They may have felt removing him would do more harm than good, just like they warned Saddam had no WMDs and removing him was a bad idea. Hindsight being 20/20 and all that, both opinions would appear to have had merit.
Ironic then that it was Sarkozy (at the urging of Bernard-Henri Levy) who made all the running in 2011 with a reticent Obama reluctantly 'leading from behind' and David Cameron eagerly jumping aboard!
Easy Street is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2020, 00:48
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,406
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
Originally Posted by SASless View Post
The French shall always be the French.
Yep, they're being a bit French at the moment... I have no idea about the overflight stories but it is true that there is an inconvenient side to the French, you know, stuff like being an independent nation, getting on with Operation Barkhane, that sort of thing....though I must admit I do wish there was a bit less "en greve"
wiggy is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2020, 03:11
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,923
Likes: 0
Received 44 Likes on 20 Posts
They refused to allow flight in either direction....armed enroll to the target or void of bombs on the way back
I would have thought it prudent not to be overflying residential areas whilst loaded for bear SAS, similarly going home they could be carrying hang ups.
megan is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2020, 04:01
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,899
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Easy Street View Post
Another point to note is that many military transit sorties across Europe are done on standing clearances.
Years ago I was flying down the Persian Gulf in an airliner and a U.S. military aircraft with a SAM callsign (89th Wing VIP flight out of Andrews AFB near Washington DC) was on the frequency. The controller (Bahrain?) gave the plane a direct that had him flying over Qatar. The SAM flight said they wanted to stay on the flight plan. The controller said that U.S. military flights request the shortcut all the time, it's not a problem. The SAM flight declined the reroute but thanked the controller.

I asked a colleague who flew right seat on Air Force One during the Clinton Administration why the SAM flight couldn't take the shortcut. He said that the SAM flights were considered 'state aircraft' even though they were military and required specific overflight clearance to go closer than 12 miles off the coast of another nation. Apparently a lot of effort is put into obtaining these clearances for each mission.
Airbubba is offline  
Old 5th Jan 2020, 07:18
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: France
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Little footnote about the Libya raid:
I was standing outside my house in S. Portugal when a bunch of F111s went over very low and fast, heading south-east. Cutting the corner? Except that it was a couple of days after the strike. Never saw anything in the media about it.

Last edited by DownWest; 5th Jan 2020 at 09:10.
DownWest is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.