View Full Version : Kauai tour helicopter missing 27th Dec 2019
havoc
27th Dec 2019, 10:34
https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/12/27/coast-guard-searching-missing-chopper-off-kauai-with-people-onboard/
By HNN Staff (https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/authors/HNN%20Staff/) | December 26, 2019 at 9:51 PM HST - Updated December 27 at 2:53 PM HONOLULU, Hawaii (HawaiiNewsNow) - The wreckage of a helicopter that went missing Thursday while on a tour of Kauai’s Na Pali Coast has been found in a remote area of the island, officials confirmed.
There were seven people, including two children, onboard the chopper when it went down.
Authorities fear there were no survivors in the crash, multiple sources told to Hawaii News Now.
Kauai Mayor Derek Kawakami said the county is working to contact the families of those involved and assess the crash area.
“We want to offer our thoughts and prayers to everyone involved,” Kawakami said.
First responders found the chopper wreckage about 9:30 am. Friday in a remote area of Kokee, about 13 miles north of Hanapepe.
When asked whether there were any survivors, Kauai Fire Department Battalion Chief Sol Kanoho said at a news conference Friday that he has “no actionable information on the status of the passengers.”
He said in addition to the pilot, there were two groups of passengers onboard the chopper ― a party of two and a party of four.NTSB is investigating
The FAA said the helicopter that went down was a Eurocopter AS350 B2. The agency said it will work with the NTSB as it investigates the cause of the crash.
Kanoho said the helicopter went down on a “prescribed route” for air tours, indicating that the pilot didn’t deviate on the way back to Lihue.
The aircraft was due to return from the Na Pali Coast tour at 5:21 p.m. Thursday.
When the helicopter didn’t get back by 6 p.m., the Coast Guard was alerted and a search was launched.
According to a preliminary report, authorities last made contact with the helicopter around 4:40 p.m., when the pilot reported that the tour was leaving the Waimea Canyon area.‘Our thoughts are with the families’
The aircraft belongs to Safari Helicopters, a tour helicopter company based in Lihue. Company officials declined to comment Friday.
In a statement Friday afternoon, Gov. David Ige said the state has offered its support as “rescue and recovery efforts continue.”
He added, “Our thoughts are with the families of those onboard as search and rescue crews work at the site of the helicopter crash on Kauai.”
The aircraft was equipped with an electronic locator, but it didn’t go off. After the chopper went missing, the Coast Guard launched a search by air and sea.
The Navy, Civil Air Patrol, Department of Land and Natural Resources, the Kauai National Guard, and commercial helicopters subsequently joined the search.
Petty Officer 1st Class Robert Cox, of Coast Guard Joint Rescue Command Center Honolulu, said weather conditions in the search area were “challenging" with low visibility and blustery winds.Third helicopter crash in 2019
The incident is the third helicopter crash in Hawaii so far this year.
In April, a helicopter went down on a busy Kailua street (https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/04/29/least-dead-helicopter-crash-kailua/), killing all three people onboard.
That same month, a state-contracted helicopter crashed in Sacred Falls Valley on Oahu’s North Shore. Four people in the craft escaped injury.
Other recent incidents include:
A chopper that crash landed on a Kaneohe Bay sandbar (https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2018/10/23/firefighters-responding-downed-chopper-kaneohe-bay-sandbar/) in October 2018, injuring the pilot and two passengers.
The January 2016 crash (https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/31942453/passengers-sue-kauai-helicopter-company-months-after-hard-landing/) of a tour helicopter on Kauai’s Na Pali Coast. In that incident, five passengers suffered injuries.
A February 2016 crash of a helicopter into Pearl Harbor (https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/31299248/family-friends-mourn-canadian-teen-killed-in-tour-helicopter-crash/) that killed a teenage passenger visiting with his family from Canada.
This story will be updated.
Copyright 2019 Hawaii News Now. All rights reserved.
nomorehelosforme
27th Dec 2019, 13:26
Quotes in the press are saying the helicopter belongs to Safari Helicopter Tours and is an ASTAR 350 B2
Gordy
27th Dec 2019, 17:36
I suspect they know within a few miles where the aircraft is located, based upon the reports centering on the Napali coast. Most have satellite trackers on board these days, I am not sure as to whether Safari does or not.
I flew tours on Kauai for 7 years. I remember one going missing about the same time of day before I left, at first light, every helicopter on the Island got airborne to search, we loaded up the helicopters with "observers", (mostly our office staff---it did not matter which company, people just got on the next helicopter with open seats), it was not till 14:00 that we located the wreckage of that one. Kauai is an inhospitable place.
The fact that there is no beacon going off does not bode well.
letsjet
27th Dec 2019, 17:47
Gordy, did you have a regular flight path over the Napali? I would think if it was down over land the ELT would have pinged. Not sure what time of day this occured, but there are also boat tours for whale watching over that way. Surprised (a bit) that no vessels in the vicinity.
Gordy
27th Dec 2019, 18:01
Gordy, did you have a regular flight path over the Napali? I would think if it was down over land the ELT would have pinged. Not sure what time of day this occured, but there are also boat tours for whale watching over that way. Surprised (a bit) that no vessels in the vicinity.
We went over the cliffs at Honopu then into Kalalau valley then just off shore and along the shoreline to Lumahai beach and headed inland.
Most boat tours have left that portion of the shoreline by that time....(around 5pm).
letsjet
27th Dec 2019, 18:04
Gordy ,Rgr....
Gordy
27th Dec 2019, 20:57
Wreckage Found (https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2019/12/27/coast-guard-searching-missing-chopper-off-kauai-with-people-onboard/?fbclid=IwAR2th20_FeABPuLgDj1Z7ElOkL4hu8sCA7X4wq_aKlP0GjPuCK 77t6_eAFQ)
Looks like they found it in Nualolo valley which is about 500 feet to the West of Honopu valley.
No survivors.
letsjet
27th Dec 2019, 22:12
"Petty Officer 1st Class Robert Cox, of Coast Guard Joint Rescue Command Center Honolulu, said Thursday night that weather conditions in the search area were “challenging" with low visibility and blustery winds."
I decided to check for myself and while airport conditions might be far from what's going on at the Napali Coast, this does give an indication. Perhaps some other pilots in the area at the time will report the conditions.
https://aviationweather.gov/metar/data?ids=PHLI&format=decoded&hours=36&taf=off&layout=on
Not the best conditions for a tour over the Napali....Perhaps you've been in difficult meteorological conditions up that way and can voice your experience. When I try and visualize a low ceiling with high winds, the last place I would want to be is near Nualolo Valley. Sad....When I learn of these tragedies, I always think of the "what if" scenarios that would have produced a different outcome. Still trying to understand why no ELT ping.
Aloha
Gordy
27th Dec 2019, 22:38
Perhaps you've been in difficult meteorological conditions up that way and can voice your experience.
The weather conditions on Kauai are unique. The North shore averages 140 inches of rain per year, the middle of the Island at Mt. Wai'ale'ale, 10 miles away, gets 450 inches per year and the South West side in Waimea, another 12 miles away gets less than 12 inches per year. The saying is, "if you do not like the weather, wait 5 minutes or move 5 miles. It is almost impossible to predict the weather at any point on the island at any given time unless you say "partly cloudy, partly sunny with possible rain".
Still trying to understand why no ELT ping.
The walls of Nualolo valley are near vertical and the unless a satellite is directly overhead, I doubt it would pick up a transmitting beacon. I am guessing they kind of knew roughly where to look as there is also some radar coverage in that area, although it takes time to get it from Honolulu.
letsjet
27th Dec 2019, 23:03
True re micro climates in Hawaii....The mountains basically collect all the rain on the rainy side.... That said, did you ever experience low ceiling or heavy cloud cover obscuring the tops of the range with winds? Perhaps you know, or we will learn if any other heli tours were active in that area at that time....I don't know if conditions were a factor in a go/no go decision....
Re ELT, I'm not sure what equip. they had aboard, but I'd be surprised if it didn't still have 121.5...In that terrain, I would think you would want some redundancy and not just 406...
I agree and unfortunately I don't think it was reported missing until after 6 right around sunset. So even other operators couldn't really have launched and provided much visual help. Had to wait until daybreak.
Gordy
27th Dec 2019, 23:18
That said, did you ever experience low ceiling or heavy cloud cover obscuring the tops of the range with winds?
Yes.......unless you fly there you cannot fathom. Here are the reports for Lihue and Barking Sands right now...They are 25 miles apart.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1141x529/2_d72b544c544ed3c239b535a21f1b197655d6bf09.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1151x532/1_0613e318ba0ec4c51f1a1bca6d5d0742a62acf3e.jpg
aa777888
27th Dec 2019, 23:28
Snap that ELT antenna off, or bury it under wreckage, and it isn't going to do you much good. That's if it even activates in the first place. It's a nice, but somewhat unreliable, insurance policy.
Condor99
27th Dec 2019, 23:29
Very sad.
They found the wreckage,ok (RIP !), but why the ELT did'nt work once again ?
Rip, family and friends...
The walls of Nualolo valley are near vertical and the unless a satellite is directly overhead, I doubt it would pick up a transmitting beacon. I am guessing they kind of knew roughly where to look as there is also some radar coverage in that area, although it takes time to get it from Honolulu.
My understanding is the crash site was pretty close to the last position report on the traffic frequency. I suspect an ELT wouldn't have made any real difference.
Gordy
28th Dec 2019, 01:34
My understanding is the crash site was pretty close to the last position report on the traffic frequency. I suspect an ELT wouldn't have made any real difference.
Where did you read that? The radio position report is made at the Upper or Lower lookout depending upon weather conditions. (90% of the time you exit the canyon at the upper). From there it is mostly flat gentle sloping ground all the way to the coast. If it crashed here, chances are the ELT would work. I heard Nualolo valley, the top of which is Kokee State Park, (the other possible location). I have not heard an accurate position yet, but ifen it was in fact in the valley, there is nowhere flat and the aircraft would have dropped to the valley floor, where there is slim chance of a signal getting out. At the widest the valley is maybe 1,500' wide.
Where did you read that? The radio position report is made at the Upper or Lower lookout depending upon weather conditions. (90% of the time you exit the canyon at the upper). From there it is mostly flat gentle sloping ground all the way to the coast. If it crashed here, chances are the ELT would work. I heard Nualolo valley, the top of which is Kokee State Park, (the other possible location). I have not heard an accurate position yet, but ifen it was in fact in the valley, there is nowhere flat and the aircraft would have dropped to the valley floor, where there is slim chance of a signal getting out. At the widest the valley is maybe 1,500' wide.
It's something I was told rather than read but I'm not sure I want to say too much more publicly. Looking on Flightradar the rescue aircraft seemed to be around Kokee/the very back of Nualolo. My impression was they were at the top of the cliffs, not the bottom.
voando
28th Dec 2019, 02:20
ELT's, CPI's, ADELT's, PLB's, EPIRB's etc are all meant to provide a means of locating someone in distress, particularly in remote areas / areas lacking in radio coverage. We know that despite all the possibilities to carry such devices, they often fail to work on the day, for whatever reason.
Satellite tracking, with adequate monitoring of flightpath, seems a far more reliable method of directing SAR to the necessary location. Simply because where the signal /track stops the aircraft will be located within a 3 minute radius. It can also have an emergency mode if the crew are aware of an emergency.
I think we place too much regulatory reliance on devices we know do not ensure success in rapidly locating when required.
Gordy
28th Dec 2019, 02:32
My impression was they were at the top of the cliffs, not the bottom.
Those cliffs are near vertical, so back of valley or top on Kokee are almost same thing. A typical tour route, (I have flown this route thousands of times), would have you cross the front of the valley then right turn towards the back wall and do a left descending turn in the valley and come out the front. So pure guess work, he may have hit the back wall, but pure speculation at this point.
letsjet
28th Dec 2019, 02:45
Question :
Does anyone know of another operator flying in the vicinity at the same time?
Those cliffs are near vertical, so back of valley or top on Kokee are almost same thing. A typical tour route, (I have flown this route thousands of times), would have you cross the front of the valley then right turn towards the back wall and do a left descending turn in the valley and come out the front. So pure guess work, he may have hit the back wall, but pure speculation at this point.
Yeah, I'm very familiar with the area too. I just mentioned that it appeared to be at the top of the cliffs in response to your comment regarding ELT coverage. Either way, it makes for a very sombre day.
Condor99
28th Dec 2019, 02:57
Question :
Does anyone know of another operator flying in the vicinity at the same time?
All operators, so 8 to 12 choppers in flight at the time... (see FR24 history logs, or whatever...).
Check for :
N963SA 1995 - EUROCOPTER AS 350 B2, Serial #: 2855
N964SA 1996 - EUROCOPTER AS 350 B2, Serial #: 2931
N985SA 1998 - EUROCOPTER AS 350 B2, Serial #: 3111
N702SA 2002 - EUROCOPTER AS 350 B2, Serial #: 3551
letsjet
28th Dec 2019, 03:30
Kōke‘e, Kaua‘i
https://mauinow.com/2019/12/26/coast-guard-searching-for-tour-helicopter-off-kauais-na-pali-coast/
On a surreal note, I was just informed by my friend from high school that his family was on the Safari flight prior to the incident.
He explained they left from Lihue and did a clockwise tour over the canyon and down into the valley and right turn around the Napali over to the North and back to the airport. He said a cold front was approaching Waimea Canyon as they left. Paul was his pilot...I'm looking at a picture of them in front of the Heli now.....Crazy
If I learn more I'll post...
letsjet
28th Dec 2019, 03:32
All operators, so 8 to 12 choppers in flight at the time... (see FR24 history logs, or whatever...).
Check for :
N963SA 1995 - EUROCOPTER AS 350 B2, Serial #: 2855
N964SA 1996 - EUROCOPTER AS 350 B2, Serial #: 2931
N985SA 1998 - EUROCOPTER AS 350 B2, Serial #: 3111
N702SA 2002 - EUROCOPTER AS 350 B2, Serial #: 3551
My friend was on 5SA
mickjoebill
28th Dec 2019, 03:41
ELT's, CPI's, ADELT's, PLB's, EPIRB's etc are all meant to provide a means of locating someone in distress, particularly in remote areas / areas lacking in radio coverage. We know that despite all the possibilities to carry such devices, they often fail to work on the day, for whatever reason....
I think we place too much regulatory reliance on devices we know do not ensure success in rapidly locating when required.
For a modest outlay, providing capable passengers with PLB’s to wear would add another layer of opportunity to signal the location.
mjb
Gordy
28th Dec 2019, 03:59
Kōke‘e, Kaua‘i
they left from Lihue and did a clockwise tour over the canyon and down into the valley and right turn around the Napali over to the North and back to the airport.
That is the standard tour route out of Lihue..... 8 times a day per pilot......(when busy anyway).
Condor99
28th Dec 2019, 04:08
My friend was on 5SA
Very sorry for that...
gulliBell
28th Dec 2019, 05:08
For a modest outlay, providing capable passengers with PLB’s to wear would add another layer of opportunity to signal the location.
Spidertracks on a 2 minute reporting cycle would be a better option.
Spidertracks on a 2 minute reporting cycle would be a better option.
Only in areas with good phone signal, which unfortunately doesn't include the Na Pali Coast
Bell_ringer
28th Dec 2019, 06:26
Only in areas with good phone signal, which unfortunately doesn't include the Na Pali Coast
uses the Iridium satellite network
Hot and Hi
28th Dec 2019, 09:14
Of course GSM based trackers would be of no use. Has to be sat tracker, out if which really only the Iridium sat network really works. Spidertracks, Garmin inReach and many other providers build sat trackers that use the Iridium sat network.
We use inReach, with a tracking interval of 1 min. I believe on Spidertracks you can also specify a 1 min interval. For helicopter ops I definitely recommend a shorter interval.
ELT: Analysis of dozens of accident reports show that an ELT only successfully works in about 1/3 of crashes. In the other 2/3 of cases it either doesn’t transmit, or the transmission is not received. (Others above have depicted some scenarios how this can happen. No need for me to repeat.)
PapaechoIT
28th Dec 2019, 09:31
Spidertracks on a 2 minute reporting cycle would be a better option.
Indeed,
my Company uses Spidertracks on the entire fleet. It is GPS based, it has a "panic button", a watch function and an auto-message capability. The 2 minutes standard position report can be reduced down to "continuously" (10s pings) and the position may be requested by the Operations Officers by selecting the helicopter you need to track and press a button at any time. It has a flight path deviation auto alert that you may set based on your company's decisions (variation in altitude, heading and speed within a preset time frame).
I'm the Safety Manager here and I feel well more comfortable knowing that we can track every helicopter at any time and everywhere in the World. However, this doesn't change the survivability of a crash nor the possibility to rush emergency teams in poor weather conditions.
So - yes - it is a good thing to have and may be really helpful in some situations but - no - it doesn't make a real difference in any possible scenario.
Sad story, by the way.
PE
Sadly, the best tracker in the world won't prevent helicopters crashing in poor weather. RIP
aa777888
28th Dec 2019, 10:48
6 bodies found and recovered. Still working on the seventh. Some additional details as well.
https://apnews.com/4280a7415668d12f72a939865731da6a
ShyTorque
28th Dec 2019, 12:34
ELT's, CPI's, ADELT's, PLB's, EPIRB's etc are all meant to provide a means of locating someone in distress, particularly in remote areas / areas lacking in radio coverage. We know that despite all the possibilities to carry such devices, they often fail to work on the day, for whatever reason.
Satellite tracking, with adequate monitoring of flightpath, seems a far more reliable method of directing SAR to the necessary location. Simply because where the signal /track stops the aircraft will be located within a 3 minute radius. It can also have an emergency mode if the crew are aware of an emergency.
I think we place too much regulatory reliance on devices we know do not ensure success in rapidly locating when required.
Interesting to note that that there has been a recent mandatory engineering check of crash switches installed in certain ELTs (not limited to one aircraft type) because some have been found to be faulty. Our aircraft was checked just a couple of months ago.
letsjet
28th Dec 2019, 14:36
I believe I read in one of the reports that they had GPS tracking. It might be how they found the wreckage so quickly. Yet, they are slow to disseminate the facts. In my experience, Hawaii in particular doesn't like to release information....Suppression more than transparency....
crunchingnumbers
28th Dec 2019, 15:00
ELT operability is one thing but flight over inhospitable terrain is quite another when there is no where to go should something go wrong.
I haven't flown in Hawaii but have flown over extremely remote parts of South America where the reality was that even at altitude (5-9,000ft agl), any forced landing would likely be pretty dire. If you were fortunate enough to survive a 200 ft canopy, unknown terrain or find a gap, it would likely be a while before getting out of there. In addition to an ELT', we carried Epirbs and I had a Breitling emergency, but an equally trusted piece of gear (at least in my mind) was probably the sat phone and spare batteries should we be lucky enough to get down The point is that there is some terrain where all the emergency comms. gear in the world 'may' help, but the risk of what we are flying over is high enough that a forced landing would likely result in a recovery operation only.
I am aware of at least one company that did some risk analysis on NVG flights over inhospitable terrain but when it came to determination of what constitutes inhospitable terrain for forced landings (pilots were surveyed and routes studied), no one could get anywhere without significant circumnavigation and the effort was dropped with some very vague guidance. :confused:
letsjet
28th Dec 2019, 15:41
ELT operability is one thing but flight over inhospitable terrain is quite anothe.....
I had a Breitling emergency, but an equally trusted piece of gear (at least in my mind) .....:
I still wear mine...small world
ELT: Analysis of dozens of accident reports show that an ELT only successfully works in about 1/3 of crashes. In the other 2/3 of cases it either doesn’t transmit, or the transmission is not received. (Others above have depicted some scenarios how this can happen. No need for me to repeat.)
Any stats on how often the ELT working would have made a difference?
GrayHorizonsHeli
28th Dec 2019, 20:56
Astars and ELTs, usually mean they end up being a puddle of material incapable of transmitting anything except a smoke signal.
WillFlyForCheese
28th Dec 2019, 21:16
Most boat tours have left that portion of the shoreline by that time....(around 5pm).
im on Kauai this week - and drove up Waimea Canyon to Pu’u O Kila Lookout on Friday. Nualolo is an amazing place - yes, the slope is near vertical - as is a good part of the Nā Pali coastline.
the weather here Christmas Eve was awful. We all received emergency warnings of flooding, high winds and rains. High winds and rains continued on and off Thursday.
as you know - and for the benefit of others, you experience several micro-climates on the short drive from Waimea to the top of the canyon. Friday it was warm and sunny in Waimea and 25 degrees cooler and raining at the lookout. The trade winds were blowing the rain up the valley towards the north all day. I’d imagine Thursday was quite a weather day along the coast.
there are few, if any, tour boats up the coast this week. With the winds - the water has been too rough on the west and north coast and most boats have stayed on the south shore off of Lawai.
Prayers to those who lost their lives.
here’s the Nualolo valley on a nice clear day.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1566x1044/image_5eaed554006745b5461f8431a75c9465f3517a7f.jpeg
There's a fundraiser for the pilot's family on GoFundMe. I can't post the link but if you search the site for "help me get to Hawaii" it's the first link
letsjet
28th Dec 2019, 23:54
I just got off the phone with my buddy. I believe Paul Matero was the pilot and N985SA is the aircraft. My buddy is a former career Marine and said his flight was nominal...He considered the pilot, from his observation, to have been beyond competent and said his flight was smooth... Weather came in after they landed. So, it would appear, whatever happened, didn't present on the previous flight.
Kauai Police Department have released photos of the crash location (not the site itself) on their Facebook and there was an interview with someone from the Fire Department on the Honolulu Star Advertiser site. The interview stated the aircraft hit a ridge and fell 50-100 yards before coming to rest. The location appears to be high up, somewhere at the very back of Nualolo.
Hot and Hi
29th Dec 2019, 11:09
Any stats on how often the ELT working would have made a difference?
Good point! From sifting through many reports I can tell that there are many accidents where the aircraft neither had a (working) ELT nor a sat tracker and where is took days to locate the crash site.
For what it is worth, having sat comms on board gives me one less reason to push on when confronted with deteriorating weather. I know wherever I land I can always call for assistance. (So does survival equipment, warm clothes and 'tons' of potable water...)
It would seem - unless there is clear evidence of mechanical failure - to be another CFIT pushing on in rapidly worsening weather.
etudiant
30th Dec 2019, 11:35
It would seem - unless there is clear evidence of mechanical failure - to be another CFIT pushing on in rapidly worsening weather.
If the reports of deteriorating weather are correct, it may be that the aircraft was caught in a gust as it was clearing the top of the ridge.
The canyon wall is extremely steep and the edge quite abrupt.
If the reports of deteriorating weather are correct, it may be that the aircraft was caught in a gust as it was clearing the top of the ridge.
The canyon wall is extremely steep and the edge quite abrupt. and surely a pilot experienced in that terrain and those conditions would have left a bigger margin to allow for gusts and downdraughts.
etudiant
30th Dec 2019, 13:59
and surely a pilot experienced in that terrain and those conditions would have left a bigger margin to allow for gusts and downdraughts.
So one would think. But I don't know how much leeway he had within the canyon.
I've only been in perfect weather and it is spectacular, but with a storm bearing down I'd not want to be in it.
but with a storm bearing down I'd not want to be in it. agreed :ok:
If the reports of deteriorating weather are correct, it may be that the aircraft was caught in a gust as it was clearing the top of the ridge.
The canyon wall is extremely steep and the edge quite abrupt.
The crash site is a fair distance beyond the rim of the canyon, and it's not an area where turbulence and downdrafts tend to be a problem. Talking to people who were flying that day the weather moved in exceptionally fast, routes went from moderately open to completely closed in a couple of minutes. What's particularly hard to take is that Paul wasn't the type to take stupid risks, just a couple of days earlier he was one of the first to be cancelling flights for bad weather.
Arcal76
30th Dec 2019, 22:30
The crash site is a fair distance beyond the rim of the canyon, and it's not an area where turbulence and downdrafts tend to be a problem. Talking to people who were flying that day the weather moved in exceptionally fast, routes went from moderately open to completely closed in a couple of minutes. What's particularly hard to take is that Paul wasn't the type to take stupid risks, just a couple of days earlier he was one of the first to be cancelling flights for bad weather.
The vast majority of pilots who crashed are not stupid...They just got caught..... If you read full accident report, fixed wing or helicopters, the vast majority of pilots involved had experience and were good pilots. Experience is not a guarantee that you won't do any mistake because many experienced pilots do mistakes. It is just reality. And experience help you to push boundaries......As pilots, we deal with many different situations, luck is sometimes your savor, we all had very close call.
nomorehelosforme
31st Dec 2019, 00:21
The vast majority of pilots who crashed are not stupid...They just got caught..... If you read full accident report, fixed wing or helicopters, the vast majority of pilots involved had experience and were good pilots. Experience is not a guarantee that you won't do any mistake because many experienced pilots do mistakes. It is just reality. And experience help you to push boundaries......As pilots, we deal with many different situations, luck is sometimes your savor, we all had very close call.
In my experience, I have been fortunate enough to have had pilots with experience that DON’T push boundaries, have been fortunate enough to have had pilots have DEALT with different/difficult situations(including encountering bad weather at the top of mountains) on each occasion by turning back, taking the safe route around the coastline or canceled the flight.
In my opinion common sense is sometimes your savior, not luck, as for your close call, I hope you learnt something from it!
SASless
31st Dec 2019, 01:34
I suggest a careful reading of Ernie Gann’s “Fate is the Hunter” might prove beneficial to some.
To be an Aviator one must know Gann.
Bell_ringer
31st Dec 2019, 05:09
The vast majority of pilots who crashed are not stupid...They just got caught..... If you read full accident report, fixed wing or helicopters, the vast majority of pilots involved had experience and were good pilots.
Everyone makes mistakes and the causes are well known and thoroughly documented.
The problem is recognising the factors that result in a fatal accident in your own behaviour.
Pressure, internal and external
We got away with it before, we will again
It has nothing to do with stupidity, and no one is just 'caught out'.
The human machine is flawed, we all are.
Almost all accidents are avoidable, the responsibility for flying into terrain in poor weather sits with the people at the business end, as uncomfortable and painful as it may be to accept.
RatherBeFlying
1st Jan 2020, 01:34
There's a number of nasty wind/terrain traps that glider pilots flying ridges need to avoid. Bottom line rotors can form downwind of a discontinuity and produce a shear of double the wind aloft.
Don't know how badly a 30 kt shear would affect a helicopter, but I had a narrow escape from one in a glider.
Paul Cantrell
1st Jan 2020, 11:21
I suggest a careful reading of Ernie Gann’s “Fate is the Hunter” might prove beneficial to some.
To be an Aviator one must know Gann.
I'd like to second this. One of the best books I've ever read, and releve to all modern pilots...
nomorehelosforme
3rd Jan 2020, 12:25
NTSB UPDATE HERE:
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Pages/ANC20MA010.aspx
The NTSB is investigating the crash of an Airbus AS350B2 sighseeing helicopter in Kauai, HI.Investigative Update, December 31, 2019NTSB investigators are studying developing plans to soon recover the wreckage of the air tour helicopter that crashed on the Hawaiian island of Kauai last week.
On December 26, at approximately 4:57 p.m. local time, an Airbus AS350 B2 helicopter, registration number N985SA, collided with terrain about 24 miles northwest of Lihue, Hawaii. The helicopter impacted a ridge at an altitude of 2,900 feet, then fell approximately 100 feet. A post-crash fire consumed much of the aircraft. The helicopter’s commercial pilot and six passengers were killed.
The helicopter was registered to SAF LTD and operated by Safari Helicopters, Inc. under the provisions of 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 135 as an on-demand sightseeing flight. The flight departed Lihue Airport at 4:31 p.m. local time.
The crash site on Kauai of an Airbus AS350 helicopter. (NTSB photo by Brice Banning)
The NTSB dispatched a team of four, led by Investigator-In-Charge Brice Banning, that includes experts in airworthiness, operations and family assistance. They arrived on Kauai, Hawaii, Sunday evening. Other investigators, including a meteorologist, are working from NTSB headquarters in Washington.
On Monday, December 30, 2019, Banning flew over the crash site to evaluate the accident site conditions and photo document the wreckage path. In the coming days the wreckage will be moved to a secure location where investigators will conduct a more thorough examination of the recovered evidence. Details and timing are still being worked out.
A preliminary report documenting facts collected on scene will be issued on ntsb.gov within three weeks of the crash date. The final report, which will contain a finding of probable cause and any safety recommendations, will be issued at the end of the investigation, which could take 12-24 months. The reports and any future updates will be posted to this accident web page.
Golden rule of flying in hilly/mountainous terrain in poor weather - always keep an escape route and don't be afraid to use it - you can always go back in if the weather clears.
nomorehelosforme
7th Jan 2020, 00:17
Just read this, clearly the tour operators in Hawaii are on the defensive....
https://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/2020/01/04/helicopter-tour-company-pushes-back-against-claims-industry-is-unsafe/
Bell_ringer
7th Jan 2020, 04:09
And he said pilots can decide not to fly a route if conditions or equipment are not ideal.
And yet they don't.
SASless
7th Jan 2020, 13:04
Tour pilots in Hawaii do not have a monopoly on that do they?
Helicopter pilots are pretty stupid folks over all.....they continue to kill themselves for the same tired old reasons year after year world wide.
Care to offer your explanation why that is?
Pick a country....no matter which one and tell us why those folks do the same thing as all of the rest of the World in this regard.
Bell_ringer
7th Jan 2020, 14:12
Tour pilots in Hawaii do not have a monopoly on that do they?
Helicopter pilots are pretty stupid folks over all.....they continue to kill themselves for the same tired old reasons year after year world wide.
That was the point.
Its not enough to shrug the shoulders and say "pilots don't have to fly".
There is pressure in all operations to get the job done, whether real or perceived.
Tour operators are particularly pushy to keep the organ grinding away.
No amount of self-regulation will change that and it is a cop-out to put the responsibility solely on the pilot.
Where tour operators are unique, wherever you go, most residents consider them a nuisance, benefitting the few. Being defensive and indignant won't change that.
Just read this, clearly the tour operators in Hawaii are on the defensive....
If you read Ed Case's comments it's not hard to come to the conclusion that he's more interested in making helicopter tours unviable, rather than improving safety. Magnum operate solely on Oahu which typically has more benign conditions (and much better weather info), they have no presence on Kauai.
And yet they don't.
If tours on Kauai only flew in ideal conditions there would only be maybe 6 flights a year. Tours are frequently cancelled or rerouted for weather. The problem is this hazard relies on a single piece of Swiss cheese - the pilot - and it's well established that pilots make mistakes, no matter how well trained or experienced they are.
But weather decisions aren't really that difficult - the problem is pilots thinking they are better or luckier than they actually are.
etudiant
13th Jan 2020, 00:11
But weather decisions aren't really that difficult - the problem is pilots thinking they are better or luckier than they actually are.
Except that in this case things deteriorated very quickly, by all accounts. So the pilot may have been surprised rather than overconfident.
It would really be very frightening to be flying up the narrow canyon and suddenly be entirely in clouds, with downdrafts. Yet apparently that was the situation.
So I'm at a loss for how to prevent such accidents. The risk seems built in given the terrain and the local weather.
Robbiee
13th Jan 2020, 00:44
Except that in this case things deteriorated very quickly, by all accounts. So the pilot may have been surprised rather than overconfident.
It would really be very frightening to be flying up the narrow canyon and suddenly be entirely in clouds, with downdrafts. Yet apparently that was the situation.
So I'm at a loss for how to prevent such accidents. The risk seems built in given the terrain and the local weather.
If the weather on Kauai is so unpredictable, then perhaps they should omit flying through canyons and just stick to the coastline?
But weather decisions aren't really that difficult - the problem is pilots thinking they are better or luckier than they actually are.
I'm a little reluctant to say this as I'm fairly sure you have a lot more experience than I do, but I would strongly disagree. In my experience weather decisions are often difficult, especially in a commercial operation. It's hard to know where the limit is without making mistakes and getting into a bad situation, especially in single pilot ops. If you're over-cautious you're likely to find yourself unemployed in short order, especially as an inexperienced pilot. In the area in question there's essentially no way to gauge the conditions without going up and taking a look and 99.999% of the time there is a way through. I knew the pilot on this flight (although not well) and he'd probably flown this route well in excess of 10,000 times. I can still hear him saying "it's only a f'ing tour" when encouraging people to cancel flights and he was one of the first to cancel of all the operators on Kauai. There's clearly no way of knowing the decision process that led to him being in the situation he was in, but he wasn't the type to take dumb risks which emphasises that if it happened to him it could happen to any of us.
If the weather on Kauai is so unpredictable, then perhaps they should omit flying through canyons and just stick to the coastline?
The Waimea Canyon itself is generally not too bad weather-wise. The accident site was on the transition between the canyon and the Na Pali coast. It's a somewhat hostile area, generally downsloping with numerous valleys, but helicopters fly over it rather than through it. Sticking to the coastline is impractical as there's a large restricted area extending from the coastline, necessitated by a very high power military radar.
JimEli
13th Jan 2020, 13:27
I'm a little reluctant to say this as I'm fairly sure you have a lot more experience than I do, but I would strongly disagree. In my experience weather decisions are often difficult, especially in a commercial operation. It's hard to know where the limit is without making mistakes and getting into a bad situation, especially in single pilot ops. If you're over-cautious you're likely to find yourself unemployed in short order, especially as an inexperienced pilot. In the area in question there's essentially no way to gauge the conditions without going up and taking a look and 99.999% of the time there is a way through. I knew the pilot on this flight (although not well) and he'd probably flown this route well in excess of 10,000 times. I can still hear him saying "it's only a f'ing tour" when encouraging people to cancel flights and he was one of the first to cancel of all the operators on Kauai. There's clearly no way of knowing the decision process that led to him being in the situation he was in, but he wasn't the type to take dumb risks which emphasises that if it happened to him it could happen to any of us.“99.999% of the time there is a way through”
“no way to gauge the conditions without going up and taking a look”
With that mindset, there’s no such thing as a weather decision.
Kicking Horse
13th Jan 2020, 13:51
Pilots are constantly under pressure, from owners, operations and customers, and the statistics show that the outcomes are not always favorable, but often by using skills of judgement and aircraft handling, many marginal flights are completed without incident.
It is VERY difficult to resist those pressures, and as I used to work in Ireland, they were a daily issue. During the Ryder Cup I was flying a Jet-Ranger, and due to poor weather, I could not make the scheduled pick-up near Killarney in the south-west. I was requested to fly low-level,following the main-road, in poor vis and low cloud conditions, towards Killarney from Dublin, to look out for the clients in a red SUV, when I saw them (I seem to recall being told that they would flash their headlamps...), land, pick them up and return to The K-Club.
I declined the offer and after a polite discussion with ops, resigned on the spot as I was not going to risk being put in that same situation again. I have never worked as a commercial pilot since (not by choice by-the-way), and we wonder why rookies and experienced pilots all over the world push-on when maybe the better option is to either set-down, or not depart in the first place...
Gordy
13th Jan 2020, 16:06
If the weather on Kauai is so unpredictable, then perhaps they should omit flying through canyons and just stick to the coastline?
Have you been to Kauai? That is like saying "Let's do a Hollywood tour, but stay over the coast".... 90% of the time, the weather on Kauai is just fine, just as B87 stated.
Robbiee
13th Jan 2020, 17:58
Have you been to Kauai? That is like saying "Let's do a Hollywood tour, but stay over the coast".... 90% of the time, the weather on Kauai is just fine, just as B87 stated.
Spent a month there back in the late 90's.
,...also flown a Hollywood tour,...nothin' special to see there.
Gordy
13th Jan 2020, 18:49
Spent a month there back in the late 90's.
,...also flown a Hollywood tour,...nothin' special to see there.
OK, my point was more that the whole reason people go on tours is to see the interior of the Island.
While I agree a Hollywood tour is nothing special to you or me, (I have flown quite a few of them, also flew tours on Kauai for 7 years in a former life before fire), these sights are something spectacular to those who do not get the same vantage point as us.
“99.999% of the time there is a way through”
“no way to gauge the conditions without going up and taking a look”
With that mindset, there’s no such thing as a weather decision.
I think you may have misinterpreted me, and I could have been clearer. I'm not suggesting pushing on regardless, I'm saying weather decisions are not always easy and Kauai has more than its fair share of marginal conditions and subsequent difficult calls. The 99.999% statement was a little bit of a mistake, I wasn't trying to say there is a way through in every situation but that there is almost always a route from the Waimea Canyon to the Na Pali coast. Sometimes it involves a detour but it's pretty unusual for there to be no way through. With that said, I have turned back there.
When I said there's no way to gauge the conditions without taking a look, I was again referring to the area between Waimea Canyon and the Na Pali. Unfortunately, that is the case. There's no radar, no meaningful observations, not even a webcam. The satellite image doesn't indicate whether the clouds are 2000' over the rim of the canyon or 200' below it. Even when you're in the Canyon you can't see what's going on beyond the rim, so you might cross the rim in sky clear conditions only to be confronted with cloud obscuring the normal route to the coast. Potentially you may be able to fly around the cloud, no problem, but you've got to go further to see. Now your weather decision has to be made very quickly, with passengers in the back, whilst flying, and potentially with other aircraft coming up behind you. Can it be done? Sure, but I wouldn't say it's always easy.
With that said, of all the tours I could have flown on Kauai, I cancelled probably in the region of 10-20% for weather reasons. I stayed on the ground for entire weeks when the weather was just a little too marginal. I have no desire to take dumb risks, especially for a tour. I was one of the more cautious pilots at one of the more cautious companies, but I'm not going to pretend I didn't make mistakes (although I did try to learn from them) - the weather here is unlike anywhere else I've flown. Some of those weather decisions were easy to make. Others were hard. They don't get easier when you're paid by the flight, not by the day, and you're working in an industry where progression is based on number of hours flown, not number of good decisions taken. I've heard people say "you're paid to make good decisions" but in the tour industry it's literally the opposite.
Gordy
13th Jan 2020, 19:57
They don't get easier when you're paid by the flight, not by the day, and you're working in an industry where progression is based on number of hours flown, not number of good decisions taken. I've heard people say "you're paid to make good decisions" but in the tour industry it's literally the opposite.
Excellent points. I was just talking to one of the "helicopter managers" on Kauai this morning. Obviously this crash, and the Novictor ones are in the forefront of discussions at the HAI Helicopter Tour Operator Committee and TOPS.
Except that in this case things deteriorated very quickly, by all accounts. So the pilot may have been surprised rather than overconfident.
It would really be very frightening to be flying up the narrow canyon and suddenly be entirely in clouds, with downdrafts. Yet apparently that was the situation.
So I'm at a loss for how to prevent such accidents. The risk seems built in given the terrain and the local weather. As I said earlier - you always retain an escape route and if that means a bugged heading on the HSI which you know you can turn onto and fly out , even IIMC, then even if the weather closes in around you , you have thought about your actions before the situation occurs.
Weather decisions are easy - can you see where you need to get to? No? Then can you get there by going lower or higher to see your destination? No? Can you approach your destination from a different direction? No? Can you wait for a few minutes for the weather to clear? No? Then that is the weather decision made.
nomorehelosforme
14th Jan 2020, 00:57
When it doubt don’t go, if you encounter bad weather turn back, easy words to say.... but as said by many and sadly proven, peer pressure, Coporate pressure and possibly own financial costs pressures seem to contribute to so many of accidents that end up getting discussed on here.
Not sure how things can improve to mitigate these outside pressures to fly in what might be uncertain conditions, sadly, in my opinion one major factor is money, weather it be the guy with millions demanding his 2 pilots take off in his “all singing all dancing “ VVIP twin whatever it is, or a low hour tour pilot gaining as many hours as possible in an R44 that is getting pressure from the tour company “let’s fit another trip in before the clouds come in”....
Robbiee
14th Jan 2020, 01:40
I flew with a guy once who refused to make a precautionary landing in one of the bazillion open fields we passed for fear it would generate negative publicity for the company.
Paul Cantrell
14th Jan 2020, 21:03
OK, my point was more that the whole reason people go on tours is to see the interior of the Island.
While I agree a Hollywood tour is nothing special to you or me, (I have flown quite a few of them, also flew tours on Kauai for 7 years in a former life before fire), these sights are something spectacular to those who do not get the same vantage point as us.
Can Gordy or someone else familiar with the tour route in question discuss why synthetic vision would not provide an adequate escape tool for this situation? ( I realise we've already discussed IFR proficiency, but I don't think that we have specifically discussed synthetic vision products like Foreflight or some of the Garmin products).
For instance, a buddy has a large iPad Pro mounted above the instrument panel of his R66 and that large a display can be quite compelling. There's no question in my mind that I could perform a 0/0 approach to a running landing with that system ( to a runway or piece of pavement) despite the 1/4 or 1/2 second update delay.
What are the particular characteristics of this tour route that would prevent such systems from providing a reliable escape from IIMC? For instance, is the terrain map not accurate to the rugged terrain in the valley?
I realise I'm often guilty of looking for technical solutions to problems that may be more human factors, but my experience with such systems makes me wonder whether such a system could have prevented this accident?
Paul - what sensors are providing this synthetic vision? Radar, IR, digital database, Google maps?
Gordy
14th Jan 2020, 21:48
Can Gordy or someone else familiar with the tour route in question discuss why synthetic vision would not provide an adequate escape tool for this situation? ( I realise we've already discussed IFR proficiency, but I don't think that we have specifically discussed synthetic vision products like Foreflight or some of the Garmin products).
Basically, you are flying in canyons, and especially when the weather turns nasty you do not want to take your eyes off where you are going. Trying to go from VFR to instruments is not easy and takes a finite time.
loucipo
14th Jan 2020, 23:51
I am not a pilot and this is my first post, because I was intrigued about the unfortunate Kauai accident since I took the helicopter tour there about 20 years ago. It was very thrilling and I was not all that concerned until the pilot said we were going to fly over an area that had one of the greatest (if not the greatest, I cannot recall) rainfall accumulations on the earth! It was sunny when we departed but sure enough, halfway through the trip it started raining so hard I could not see through the plexiglass (I guess the pilot could, or his instruments were guiding him because I am typing this). As I said, not being a pilot, all I could think of was all that rain being sucked into the engine and wondering how the engineers designed things to keep the craft in the air. Suddenly, the sun shone again and the rest of the trip was uneventful. But I will never forget the volume of sudden rain that day and the skill of the pilot.
etudiant
15th Jan 2020, 00:10
Basically, you are flying in canyons, and especially when the weather turns nasty you do not want to take your eyes off where you are going. Trying to go from VFR to instruments is not easy and takes a finite time.
Turbulence can be amplified in a canyon as well, particularly here where the cliffs are in the 3000 foot class. It is not obvious that going to instruments would help much under those conditions.
Robbiee
15th Jan 2020, 00:51
https://youtu.be/Ax79Sm-B2gA
Sure, its kinda cool, but it does get pretty tight in places.
Gordy
15th Jan 2020, 01:27
Hoping that video was not filmed on a regular tour as some of those scenes were filmed closer than the prescribed minimums for tours.
Robbiee
15th Jan 2020, 02:17
Well here's one with one of those awesome shoe selfies,...plus a selfie stick outside the door pic,...oooh wow, isn't this guy so cool!
https://youtu.be/IbIn__jGmIU
Bell_ringer
15th Jan 2020, 06:10
Ahh the blessings that affordable Robinson helicopter flights provide.
All those poor knobheads would otherwise be stuck on the ground with their selfie sticks :}
Paul Cantrell
15th Jan 2020, 16:14
Paul - what sensors are providing this synthetic vision? Radar, IR, digital database, Google maps?
Crab, a combination of GPS and digital terrain maps, with attitude being provided by any AHRS you have... In our B206L3 it's coming from the Garmin 650 GPS's AHRS, when I'm flying some random aircraft it's coming from the AHRS in my portable Stratus ADSB receiver.
Looking at the two videos posted, I doubt the terrain map is detailed enough to help in those narrow valleys. That's pretty crazy!
Next time I fly with my buddy I'll try to get a picture of the setup in his R66.
Re: Gordy's statement about time to switch to IFR, it's not really the same thing, because you're not having to interpret instruments... It's just another picture of what you are seeing out the front window. Same thing you see with a Garmin G1000...
etudiant
15th Jan 2020, 16:52
Thank you, Robbie, for those two postings.
They illustrate the issue very clearly. Just consider a happy helo holiday going up the canyon when a sudden front comes through, with gusts, turbulence and thick fog.
Not a good place to be. RIP the pilot and his charges, they got caught through no fault of their own.
Self loading bear
15th Jan 2020, 16:56
If we go synthetic, this might be a better suggestion:
Virtual flying over Paris:
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/540x360/3e28734b_c017_4c03_9028_18c7e78d0da5_ba8c610d7f2af1516fd66e6 db91b3a2ddfbc180a.jpeg
WillFlyForCheese
16th Jan 2020, 03:25
“A person who was near a remote Hawaii site where a tour helicopter crashed and killed seven people last month told investigators that visibility was only about 20 feet (6 meters) at the time because of fog and rain, according to a preliminary accident report released Wednesday.
The unidentified person was on a hiking trail Dec. 26 in Koke’e State Park on Kauai island and described hearing a hovering helicopter followed by a high-pitched whine, the National Transportation Safety Board report said.
The person was about 1.5 miles (2.4 kilometers) away from the remote mountain ridge where the helicopter went down. The witness tried to look for the helicopter but could not because of the weather conditions and fading daylight, the report said.“
From:
https://apnews.com/549f8f391f044e84fd918228ab98c081
WillFlyForCheese
16th Jan 2020, 03:27
NTSB Preliminary Report: https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20191227X75520&AKey=1&RType=Prelim&IType=MA
On December 26, 2019, about 1657 Hawaii standard time, an Airbus AS350 B2 helicopter, N985SA, was destroyed by impact forces and a postcrash fire when it collided with terrain about 24 miles northwest of Lihue, Hawaii. The commercial pilot and six passengers were fatally injured. The helicopter was registered to SAF LTD and operated by Safari Aviation Inc., doing business as Safari Helicopters, as a Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 135 on-demand commercial air tour flight. Company flight following procedures were in effect for the visual flight rules flight, which departed Lihue Airport (PHLI), Lihue, Hawaii at 1631.
The accident flight was the pilot's eighth and last scheduled 50-minute aerial tour flight of the day. About 1632, the pilot radioed Safari Helicopters' headquarters reporting a departure time of 1631. Shortly thereafter, another company pilot heard the accident pilot report his position at "Tree Tunnel," an air tour reporting point, on the common traffic advisory frequency.
About 1645, an air tour pilot from a different company reported that he heard the accident pilot report "Upper Mic," which was a compulsory air tour reporting point that indicated the accident helicopter was exiting the Waimea Canyon and beginning a transition over to the Na Pali coastline via Koke'e State Park.
About 1731, ten minutes after the accident helicopter was due to arrive back at PHLI, the flight follower for Safari Helicopters notified the company's director of operations that the helicopter was overdue, and flight-locating procedures began. An extensive search was initiated, and search operations were conducted by personnel from Safari Helicopters, the US Coast Guard, the Kauai Fire Department, the Kauai Police Department, the Civil Air Patrol, and the Hawaii Air National Guard.
On December 27, about 0932, the accident site was located within the Koke'e State Park. The helicopter impacted tropical mountainous terrain on a north facing slope at an elevation of about 3,003 ft mean sea level (msl) and came to rest at an elevation of about 2,900 ft msl. All of the helicopter's major components were located within the debris field, and the wreckage was largely consumed by a postcrash fire.
A witness located about 1.5 to 1.75 miles up the Nualolo Trail within the Koke'e State Park near the time of the accident reported weather conditions of about 20 ft visibility in rain and fog. He heard what he described as a hovering helicopter followed by a high-pitched whine. Knowing something was wrong, he attempted to locate the helicopter but was unable due to the adverse weather conditions and fading daylight.
The figure below shows a typical tour route via Tree Tunnel to Upper Mic, as described by Safari Helicopters. The accident site is noted in the upper left portion of the figure. As the accident helicopter did not have flight tracking equipment onboard, the exact flight path is unavailable.
The closest official weather observation station to the accident site was Barking Sands Pacific Missile Range Facility (PABK), Kauai, Hawaii, located about 9 miles southwest of the accident site. The 1656 observation reported wind from 310° at 12 knots, gusting to 15 knots; 10 statute miles visibility; few clouds at 1,200 ft, broken clouds at 3,400 ft and 4,700 ft, overcast clouds at 6,000 ft; temperature 70°F; dew point 57°F; and an altimeter setting of 29.90 inches of mercury.
A PABK special weather observation at 1718 reported wind from 350° at 10 knots; 2 1⁄2 statute miles visibility in rain and mist, overcast clouds at 3,000 ft; temperature 73°F; dew point 72°F; and an altimeter setting of 29.90 inches of mercury.
Bell_ringer
16th Jan 2020, 04:08
Looking at the two videos posted, I dou]bt the terrain map is detailed enough to help in those narrow valleys. That's pretty crazy!
What is the accuracy and % error of synthetic vision? From what I understand it is between 100 to 150ft vertically/horizontally.
It wasn't designed for winding through valleys, it was to provide a better reference from a reasonable altitude.
I always suspected that the Bell 505 crashes that occured at night/poor visibility was a result of pilots starting to rely on SV when otherwise they wouldn't fly, it's just a hunch.
Some also don't appreciate that wires, towers and buildings don't feature.
Can Gordy or someone else familiar with the tour route in question discuss why synthetic vision would not provide an adequate escape tool for this situation? ( I realise we've already discussed IFR proficiency, but I don't think that we have specifically discussed synthetic vision products like Foreflight or some of the Garmin products).
For instance, a buddy has a large iPad Pro mounted above the instrument panel of his R66 and that large a display can be quite compelling. There's no question in my mind that I could perform a 0/0 approach to a running landing with that system ( to a runway or piece of pavement) despite the 1/4 or 1/2 second update delay.
What are the particular characteristics of this tour route that would prevent such systems from providing a reliable escape from IIMC? For instance, is the terrain map not accurate to the rugged terrain in the valley?
I realise I'm often guilty of looking for technical solutions to problems that may be more human factors, but my experience with such systems makes me wonder whether such a system could have prevented this accident?
Honestly, I think it would have helped. The area the crash occurred in wasn't one in which you would normally be in a valley or canyon. The rising terrain would typically be behind you at that point, not ahead of you and mostly not alongside either. Looking at the pictures of the crash site that have been released it appears the aircraft hit a ridge whilst heading towards the south west, i.e. back towards the Canyon. It could have been disorientation but I suspect the pilot turned back and found the route back to the Canyon had closed.
As to why it's not fitted, probably the most common argument against is it encourages pilots to take more risks knowing they have something to fall back on. I won't say it's an argument without merit, but to me the issue is that when a pilot does make a mistake (and that happens) they are often almost entirely relying on luck until they break out again. The point was made earlier about having a heading bug set on a safe heading, but not all tour aircraft have HSIs or even attitude indicators. I wouldn't want to rely on synthetic vision, especially in a valley, but if I've screwed up enough that it's synthetic vision, trying to fly a compass heading or just keeping my fingers crossed, I'm inclined to say I'd go with synthetic vision (although I've never used it).
Gordy
16th Jan 2020, 16:05
In the Google earth map it looks like they have the "Upper Mic" in the wrong place. It should be one ridge to the West right on the dot there.
I agree with B87----my best guess would be he was headed to the back of Nualolo, was prolly hugging the ground with a cloud bank on his right, slowly getting worse and then realized it was not going to happen and tried to get back to the canyon. Had he have been going West he would have been OK I suspect.
That sloping plateau from the back of the Canyon to the coast is very deceiving, there are few distinguishing features, and it is easy to get disorientated, especially as one rarely looks at your compass. I have to admit, that I once was doing the exact same thing, saw an opening and announced to my passengers that the Napali coast would appear out the right window in 5..4..3..2..1..... and.... never mind, we are back in the canyon again. That is how easy it is to get dis-orientated up there.
Paul - thanks, but it seems a bit of a misnomer to call it synthetic vision - you are simply relying on a computer database to display terrain which may or may not be 100% accurate - you are not even using radar to map what is actually in front of you. Not something I would trust my life with.
Paul Cantrell
17th Jan 2020, 05:17
Paul - thanks, but it seems a bit of a misnomer to call it synthetic vision - you are simply relying on a computer database to display terrain which may or may not be 100% accurate - you are not even using radar to map what is actually in front of you. Not something I would trust my life with.
Crab,
I don't have an opinion on the name, just what it's being called:
Garmin (https://www.garmin.com/en-US/blog/aviation/garmin-pilot-adds-synthetic-vision-capability/) and Foreflight (https://www.foreflight.com/products/foreflight-mobile/synthetic-vision/) both use the term.
As for how trustworthy, here's a PDF page discussing the Jeppesen (https://ww1.jeppesen.com/documents/aviation/commercial/TERR_OBSTACLES.pdf) database.
It contains a reference to the resolution of the data, which was asked in a previous posting:The SRTM data has a resolution of 3 arc-seconds (90m) and 16 meter vertical accuracy.
While I would be reluctant to trust the data to fly the aircraft in normal flight ( like, without looking out the window), if I found myself in an IIMC encounter and it said there was terrain, I would tend to believe the data ( i.e I'd turn away from the charted terrain): in my experience both the terrain and the obstacles seem to correlate well with what I see from the cockpit.
As I said previously, the resolution ( 295 feet by 52 feet ) doesn't sound like it's good enough for an encounter down in that terrain we see in the tour videos, but it's probably sufficient to guide you away from a prominent ridge. I'd be interested to hear peoples opinion on data fidelity in terrain like Kauai... I think the intent was always to guide an airplane away from major terrain features, not as a high resolution terrain map for NOE helicopter flying. Still, it's pretty impressive to have a global database with this kind of resolution available for essentially free.
Paul Cantrell
17th Jan 2020, 14:31
As to why it's not fitted, probably the most common argument against is it encourages pilots to take more risks.
Funny, I have a similar reaction to low time R44 owners wanting the autopilot that's now available. Some pilots will push on in worse weather hoping the autopilot will save them, which it probably WILL if they don't hit a wire or tower... It's hard to know for sure how aids like that will effect the total accident rates.
Similarly I could see the synthetic vision having that effect, except that in the case of Kauai it seems like people are already pushing pretty darn hard. My hat is off to the guys flying those tours every day. Additionally though, I think the tour pilots are probably very aware that if they actually punch in and have to use SV or instruments to get back to VFR, the people in the back aren't sworn to secrecy. If that's happening too often I imagine it would be visible to FAA etc.
I'm convinced my balls must be shrinking in size, because in years past I would push pretty hard on VFR weather, but in recent years I've noticed myself canceling flights more. A while back I mentioned to a fellow pilot that I have simply had enough of being scared in the air.