Secret RAF flights in the UK

[beardy]

Islanders snooping (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1041011/MI5-launch-spy-sky-UK-manhunt-British-Taliban-fought-Afghanistan.html)

Only 11 years since this was reported in the Daily Mail. It took another 3 years for the Daily Telegraph to report it :

Daily Telegraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8857517/Met-Police-spends-millions-of-pounds-on-secret-aircraft.html)

And only last year there were updates :

Evening Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/business/lift-off-home-office-privatises-mi5-s-spy-plane-operations-a3965671.html?amp)

Thank goodness that the Internet access in this country is not censored as it is in other countries and thank goodness for a free press where open and honest discussion isn't stifled by paranoia.

And now it seems that that American military have been deployed inside their own country to do something similar.

But we can't discuss it on a locked thread (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/628144-secret-raf-flights-uk.html)

[Davef68]

It was locked because it went OT discussing the US consitution

[beardy]

It was locked because it went OT discussing the US consitution
Surveillance of a population by its own government (which is happening) is very much part of the topic. Whether that is permissable or desirable are legitimate points of discussion and have been debated by philosophers since before the framing of the Constitution of the USA.

[Herod]

If there are people in this country who want to do us harm, and the security services want to monitor them, fine by me. That's part of us being a free country. The other part is the freedom to make them accountable for their actions.

[beardy]

If there are people in this country who want to do us harm, and the security services want to monitor them, fine by me. That's part of us being a free country. The other part is the freedom to make them accountable for their actions.
I agree

Accountable to who? I know it's a bit of a trope, but who does watch the watchmen?

[hoodie]

The Intelligence and Security Committee (http://isc.independent.gov.uk/)does.

[pax britanica]

Living close to a sensitive location we do get the occasional islander flight weeks in advance of an event as a rule. These can surely only be of use in specifically defined situations and limited in their ability to collect and store data. Much more to worry about from interception storage and potential rearranging/photoshopping/voice altering your Whats app/Tinder/Gmail/Skype etc etc by the spooks rather than a few islanders poodling around on an import but very focussed specific job I would hava thought.

As for the free but extremely biased press they can be very selective about what and who they complain about but at least they do make a noise from time to time

[keeprighton1974]

...thank goodness for a free press...

Good joke. See 'Gerry McCann is happy' on YouTube, taken right infront of the whole of the UK's 'free press'.

[Asturias56]

About 5 years ago an ex USMC officer who was lecturing (in a non-secret subject) at a major US Uni. told me they told their students to remember than ANYTHING you commit to writing on a PC/phone/Tablet can longer be considered secret or confidential - especially emails

Like it or not we live in a Surveillance Society - sometimes that's good and sometime's that's bad but it is what it is and there is no turning the clock back.

The only answer is to do what the SVR were apparently doing in Moscow - buying a lot of steam driven typewriters................. but then maybe they were on special..........

[chevvron]

The only answer is to do what the SVR were apparently doing in Moscow - buying a lot of steam driven typewriters................. but then maybe they were on special..........
It was noticeable pre Glasnost that any Soviet aircraft we had in at Farnborough would get a 'visit' by a van labelled 'Currys' or 'Dixons' just prior to its departure and they would deliver dozens of anonymous cardboard boxes to the aircraft.

[Dorf]

It was noticeable pre Glasnost that any Soviet aircraft we had in at Farnborough would get a 'visit' by a van labelled 'Currys' or 'Dixons' just prior to its departure and they would deliver dozens of anonymous cardboard boxes to the aircraft.

Crew meals?

[Green Flash]

Was the same at Ullapool back in the day when the Klondikers came in. A huge truck or two of all manner of consumer goods would be at the dock before the fleet departed.

[Asturias56]

See "local Hero" - but not just the Russians - I was checking out of a Hotel in Glasgow in the early 90's and a guy came into drop off a Land Rover Defender gearbox for an Icelandair passenger expected in that afternoon for a 4 day stay......................... Th Hotel staff didn't bat an eye-lid - apparently they had a shed round the back especially for Icelandic "deliveries"

[BEagle]

A government spokesman said: “We do not comment on matters of national security.”

Quite. What has been reported in the press is mere speculation. Those who know are those who need to know - no-one else.

[beardy]

Quite. What has been reported in the press is mere speculation. Those who know are those who need to know - no-one else.
Informed speculation, not 'mere'.

The bad guys are well aware of the capabilities of the snoopers, it's just the public who pay for it who are kept in the dark.

[pettinger93]

In the 70's, it was (very) old second hand cars that covered the decks of eastbound Russian coastal shipping.

[Asturias56]

I believe in the '60's some Bulgarian ships were being refurbed on Tyneside and went home loaded with upright piano's..............

[AnglianAV8R]

https://www.itv.com/news/london/2014-07-23/mysterious-spyplane-circling-the-skies-could-be-eavesdropping-on-mobile-phone-calls/

[Airbubba]

The FBI has been doing this stuff in the U.S. for many years now.

June 2, 2015FBI behind mysterious surveillance aircraft over US cities (Update)byJack Gillum, Eileen Sullivan And Eric Tuckerhttps://scx1.b-cdn.net/csz/news/800/2015/fbibehindmys.jpgIn this photo taken May 26, 2015, a small plane flies near Manassas Regional Airport in Manassas, Va. The plane is among a fleet of surveillance aircraft by the FBI, which are primarily used to target suspects under federal investigation. Such planes are capable of taking video of the ground, and some—in rare occasions—can sweep up certain identifying cellphone data. (AP Photo/Andrew Harnik)

Scores of low-flying planes circling American cities are part of a civilian air force operated by the FBI and obscured behind fictitious companies, The Associated Press has learned.The AP traced at least 50 aircraft back to the FBI, and identified more than 100 flights in 11 states over a 30-day period since late April, orbiting both major cities and rural areas. At least 115 planes, including 90 Cessna aircraft, were mentioned in a federal budget document from 2009.

For decades, the planes have provided support to FBI surveillance operations on the ground. But now the aircraft are equipped with high-tech cameras, and in rare circumstances, technology capable of tracking thousands of cellphones, raising questions about how these surveillance flights affect Americans' privacy.

"It's important that federal law enforcement personnel have the tools they need to find and catch criminals," said Charles Grassley, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. "But whenever an operation may also monitor the activities of Americans who are not the intended target, we must make darn sure that safeguards are in place to protect the civil liberties of innocent Americans."

The FBI says the planes are not equipped or used for bulk collection activities or mass surveillance. The surveillance equipment is used for ongoing investigations, the FBI says, generally without a judge's approval.

The FBI confirmed for the first time the wide-scale use of the aircraft, which the AP traced to at least 13 fake companies, such as FVX Research, KQM Aviation, NBR Aviation and PXW Services.

"The FBI's aviation program is not secret," spokesman Christopher Allen said in a statement. "Specific aircraft and their capabilities are protected for operational security purposes."

The front companies are used to protect the safety of the pilots, the agency said. That setup also shields the identity of the aircraft so that suspects on the ground don't know they're being followed.

The FBI is not the only federal law enforcement agency to take such measures.

The Drug Enforcement Administration has its own planes, also registered to fake companies, according to a 2011 Justice Department inspector general report. At the time, the DEA had 92 aircraft in its fleet. And since 2007, the U.S. Marshals Service has operated an aerial surveillance program with its own fleet equipped with technology that can capture data from thousands of cellphones, the Wall Street Journal reported last year.

[MATELO]

The FBI has been doing this stuff in the U.S. for many years now.



...and it's even shown in the film Casino, going back to the 70's when the film was set.

[BVRAAM]

The bad guys are well aware of the capabilities of the snoopers, it's just the public who pay for it who are kept in the dark.
If that statement was true, aircraft would be getting shot down regularly in theatre, because the bad guys would know everything about how to score that direct hit.

That doesn't happen so clearly secrecy works. We're all tax payers as citizens, but thankfully most of us would prefer that those putting their skin in the game weren't put at risk by the enemy knowing how they conduct their business.

[beardy]

If that statement was true, aircraft would be getting shot down regularly in theatre, because the bad guys would know everything about how to score that direct hit.

The theatre for these aircraft is the cities, suburbs and back gardens of the UK. Would you think there to be a distinct in theatre ground threat?

I believe that the Liverpool police helicopter was targeted on the ground, before being moved to a more secure hangarage.

[BVRAAM]

The theatre for these aircraft is the cities, suburbs and back gardens of the UK. Would you think there to be a distinct in theatre ground threat?

I believe that the Liverpool police helicopter was targeted on the ground, before being moved to a more secure hangarage.

You didn't specify exact capabilities, so I'll admit my response was broad to cover a larger area, but not inaccurate according to the context of your own post. The people being monitored are likely to not be very nice people, who may intend to commit harm to dozens, if not hundreds of innocent people.
It's also reasonable to suspect they are prepared to commit harm to anybody involved in their investigation - or apprehension - to evade the law and avoid justice, to maximise their likelihood of success.

The slightest insight or confirmation in to how the information against them is collected, could change the way in which they operate, which may prevent those on the frontline of preventing atrocities from having the information they require to safely do their job - this is why MI5, MI6, GCHQ, counter terrorist specialist Police and other organisations ;) don't talk about the details of their work. Knowledge is power - information about numbers, intent, weapons, location, etc. can all be collected via the assets being discussed. It's better to let the enemy figure it out on their own.

We sleep comfortably in our beds at night thanks to the incredible men and women in our Police, Security Services and Armed Forces who keep us safe from bad people. How about let's not betray them by talking about their most sensitive kit?

[Whenurhappy]

Well, I wouldn't put much faith in the Evening Standard article which cannot distinguish between MI 5 and MI 6, and can't even correctly identify their respective HQs, which is a matter of public record.

[beardy]

The discussion, so far has not included capabilities, only that sophisticated surveillance is being conducted by the security services of it's own population many of whom are ignorant of it happening. The bad guys are well aware that it happens and being aware have probably taken measures to limit their exposure.

[Asturias56]

Anyone who watches a TV drama, or reads the paper or a crime novel knows a lot about some (but not all) techniques used by the forces of law and order. Remember one of the pieces of evidence that located Osama Bin laden was the fact his house DIDN'T have an internet connection. Even people like Extinction Rebellion now commonly use "burner" phones and VPN

[Pontius Navigator]

On the Russians, I believe their Shetland tug would pick up Lada spares.

And not just the Russians, the German Navy would raid Currys in Elgin and clear them of cylinder vacuums. They even brought their own crew bus.

[possel]

Just for the record, getting back on topic, the title of this thread is actually incorrect, as those Islanders are operated by the Army, not the RAF. The Brigadier mentioned is of course in the Army and the only mention of the RAF in the Mail article is that they operate from RAF Northolt.

[Dockers]

Just for the record, getting back on topic, the title of this thread is actually incorrect, as those Islanders are operated by the Army, not the RAF. The Brigadier mentioned is of course in the Army and the only mention of the RAF in the Mail article is that they operate from RAF Northolt.

possel
https://www.janes.com/article/87600/uk-transfers-defender-and-islander-special-mission-aircraft-from-aac-to-raf

[beardy]

Just for the record, getting back on topic, the title of this thread is actually incorrect, as those Islanders are operated by the Army, not the RAF. The Brigadier mentioned is of course in the Army and the only mention of the RAF in the Mail article is that they operate from RAF Northolt.
Transfer to the RAF was also discussed here:

651 Sqn AAC to the RAF (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/620175-651-sqn-aac-raf.html)

[Davef68]

Just for the record, getting back on topic, the title of this thread is actually incorrect, as those Islanders are operated by the Army, not the RAF. The Brigadier mentioned is of course in the Army and the only mention of the RAF in the Mail article is that they operate from RAF Northolt.

The Northolt Islanders were ostensibly RAF aircraft (CC2s rather than the Army's AL1s and later Defenders), operated by the 'Northolt Station Flight', but as mentioned they have been retired and replaced by contractor operated aircraft, from the same facility. They are not the only 'civil' operated surveillance airraft used in the UK either. Google can tell you more, but there are good operational security reasons for the operators not to comment on them

[pr00ne]

The Northolt Station Flight Islanders were replaced by civilian contractor Piper Navajos some years ago. Their capabilities are niche and extremely appropriate and relevant for the world today. Happy to see and hear them droning over west London.

And as for those who say; "Those who know are those who need to know - no-one else." I say rubbish. That is worthy of North Korea or East Germany or any other closed, repressive and oppressive Police state. The assets being discussed here are NOT some 1984 Big Brother spy on the people capability, they are a niche and dedicated capability and only a small part of what the security services, GCHQ and the Home Office do to keep us safe.

[air pig]

About 5 years ago an ex USMC officer who was lecturing (in a non-secret subject) at a major US Uni. told me they told their students to remember than ANYTHING you commit to writing on a PC/phone/Tablet can longer be considered secret or confidential - especially emails

Like it or not we live in a Surveillance Society - sometimes that's good and sometime's that's bad but it is what it is and there is no turning the clock back.

The only answer is to do what the SVR were apparently doing in Moscow - buying a lot of steam driven typewriters................. but then maybe they were on special..........

German BnD has done the same.

[Doctor Cruces]

They don't exactly hide them, do they? Regularly see ADSB tracks of King Air and Sentinel and to the even vaguely initiated it's pretty obvious what they're doing.

I find it comforting that there are people out there attempting to keep me safe by eavesdropping on potential "bad guys" and maybe thwarting a plot before it even gets under way.

[KPax]

A military looking callsign on a civilian registered aircraft makes it rather obvious.

[Asturias56]

Bit like those cunningly disguised red letter road signs you use in the UK to for defence establishments...............

[deltahotel]

It’s a bit of a non story isn’t it? I assume GCHQ does clever monitoring of phones/emails etc to monitor/track down the bad guys and I assume that MI5 or similar do much the same on the streets so why should anyone be surprised at just another method? But then it is the Mail.

[tmmorris]

Like the 'Works Unit' sign on the M4...

[langleybaston]

Need to know .................. !

[pr00ne]

langleybaston,

You sound like some old East German or North Korean.

[Asturias56]

"Like the 'Works Unit' sign on the M4..."

Ah yes ........ ...... I know someone who pulled off there to take a look - they can see the junction from a watchtower at the top of the hill and he thought there were probably sensors there as well as it was only a few minutes before security turned up and asked what his problem was......................

[ZH875]

I had to survey that slip road on/off the M4 each year, never saw anyone at the gated end. Never stopped long enough to see who turned up.

[langleybaston]

langleybaston,

You sound like some old East German or North Korean.

Which were you?

[chevvron]

The theatre for these aircraft is the cities, suburbs and back gardens of the UK. Would you think there to be a distinct in theatre ground threat?

I believe that the Liverpool police helicopter was targeted on the ground, before being moved to a more secure hangarage.
The Surrey Police Helicopter was based at Fairoaks for many years but moved to a more secure location after being 'attacked' for a second time by 'travellers' who objected to their 'activities' being observed from the sky as they apparently had something to hide.

[Martin the Martian]

An article in the latest Air Forces Monthly mentions that with the transfer of 651 Squadron to the RAF (and presumably being restyled No.651 Squadron in the process) its aircraft have been redesignated Islander R. Mk.1 and Defender R. Mk.2, It has three and eight of each type respectively along with an unmodified Defender T. Mk.3 and for now remains based at Aldergrove.

[Countdown begins]

It’s only a matter of time before some ego is careless enough to say something they shouldn’t here. Note the OP has gone quiet, does anyone know them?

[ShyTorque]

The Surrey Police Helicopter was based at Fairoaks for many years but moved to a more secure location after being 'attacked' for a second time by 'travellers' who objected to their 'activities' being observed from the sky as they apparently had something to hide.

Similar objections were raised by local miscreants at Birmingham and in Derbyshire; both bases were attacked.

[langleybaston]

It’s only a matter of time before some ego is careless enough to say something they shouldn’t here. Note the OP has gone quiet, does anyone know them?

Totally agree. Wind it in people, this is a public site.

[beardy]

Note the OP has gone quiet, does anyone know them?

What a bizarre question, you must have a very suspicious mind and a penchant for irrelevant questions.

Rather off topic, but:

​​​​​
At least one Conservative MP doesn't share your concern about paranoia. But is very concerned about the possibility of civilians being shot by NATO military personnel. Perhaps prescient in the 'diplomatic immunity' joker pulled by the wife of someone who works/worked at another 'secret' RAF base.

​​​​​​THAT 'secret base' (https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2008-03-06b.2020.0)

If in doubt, just classify it, remember knowledge is power!

[Asturias56]

Beardy? Been around since 2002 and posted on things like Hotmail v other email systems and Ryanair................ 17 years on here might well raise questions about life balance but it isn't suspicious................

Countdown has only been on here since August...........................

[Countdown begins]

Beardy? Been around since 2002 and posted on things like Hotmail v other email systems and Ryanair................ 17 years on here might well raise questions about life balance but it isn't suspicious................

Countdown has only been on here since August...........................
Asturias, irrelevant as usual. The warning is people are perhaps more vulnerable to open their mouths when relaxed and perhaps unsder the influence. It’s a friendly reminder that bragging rights and egos may come into play here, and permanently change their current lifestyle.
Clearly you don’t serve, or you have just gaffed off your yearly security brief. Let’s hope it’s not you that is found to release something, now naff orf!😂

[Chris Kebab]

Maybe this site will assuage folks fears about may or may not have been mentioned on this thread and is freely available; remarkable what a quick on-line search throws up. https://www.secret-bases.co.uk/cia-rendition.htm

[finningleyprince]

Joking aside...................... just because someone has been on here 17 years....................... or more does not clear them to everything you know. It seems good advice........................ as a few G&Ts in there's always that foolish chance...............................

[beardy]

Joking aside, just because someone has been on here 17 years or more does not clear them to everything you know. It seems good advice, as a few G&Ts in there's always that foolish chance.
Good advice, you never know who is following you.

That aside, there is a culture of unnecessary secrecy and always has been in the services. At times it breeds a silo culture within the military which decreases efficiency. Outside the services it breeds paranoia and destroys trust in those who should be protecting us but can end up being seen as protecting their own interests. It's just too easy and requires no thought to play the 'need to know' card.

Don't tell him your name Pike. 😂

[Countdown begins]

Good advice, you never know who is following you.

That aside, there is a culture of unnecessary secrecy and always has been in the services. At times it breeds a silo culture within the military which decreases efficiency. Outside the services it breeds paranoia and destroys trust in those who should be protecting us but can end up being seen as protecting their own interests. It's just too easy and requires no thought to play the 'need to know' card.

Don't tell him your name Pike. 😂
I rest my case. Comrade Beardy is a Labour MP!!

[beardy]

I rest my case. Comrade Beardy is a Labour MP!!
What on earth are you on about?
That is irrelevant to the discussion and not a 'case'. It is a straw man argument which says more about you than me.
As an example of silo mentality :
There was a time when the presence of a submarine around the Falkland Islands was secret and need to know only. The RAF did not need to know. Until one day a Harrier 'mate' announced in clear he had just seen one, which was then confirmed, in clear, to the one of ours.
​​​​
​​​​​​

[Countdown begins]

What on earth are you on about?
That is irrelevant to the discussion and not a 'case'. It is a straw man argument which says more about you than me.
As an example of silo mentality :
There was a time when the presence of a submarine around the Falkland Islands was secret and need to know only. The RAF did not need to know. Until one day a Harrier 'mate' announced in clear he had just seen one, which was then confirmed, in clear, to the one of ours.
​​​​
​​​​​​
Talking about irrelevant!! Secret UK overflights.... Falkands. Thanks for coming.

[BEagle]

Security:

Captain Blackadder:
Can anyone tell me what's going on?
Captain Darling:
Security, Blackadder.
Captain Blackadder:
Security?
General Melchett:
Security isn't a dirty word, Blackadder. Crevice is a dirty word, but security isn't.


Need to know:

(Warning to snowflakes - includes bad language)

https://youtu.be/IUR1jeJYX7Y

While on the topic of beards:

https://youtu.be/17fafupOKOE

[Video Mixdown]

The UK’s defence and security is not a joke, and you risk endangering people’s lives. This thread is a disgrace.

[Countdown begins]

What on earth are you on about?
That is irrelevant to the discussion and not a 'case'. It is a straw man argument which says more about you than me.
As an example of silo mentality :
There was a time when the presence of a submarine around the Falkland Islands was secret and need to know only. The RAF did not need to know. Until one day a Harrier 'mate' announced in clear he had just seen one, which was then confirmed, in clear, to the one of ours.
​​​​
​​​​​​
Was it an FAA pilot?

[Countdown begins]

The UK’s defence and security is not a joke, and you risk endangering people’s lives. This thread is a disgrace.
Wholeheartedly agree. This is an SIB investigation waiting to happen... just add alcohol and idiots.

[teeteringhead]

I think Bernard Woolley (Sir Humphrey's underling) summed up "need to know" accurately...

Bernard: The fact that you needed to know was not known at the time that the now known need to know was known, and therefore those that needed to advise and inform the Home Secretary perhaps felt that the information that he needed as to whether to inform the highest authority of the known information was not yet known, and therefore there was no authority for the authority to be informed because the need to know was not, at that time, known or needed

[Wrathmonk]

As long as no one talks about the mil and civ support to chemtrails we should be ok.

Mum’s the word!

[Davef68]

None of this is new

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1041011/MI5-launch-spy-sky-UK-manhunt-British-Taliban-fought-Afghanistan.html

[langleybaston]

Yes, true, and most of us knew that, What a few of us want to avoid is relating that which is known to some of us and is still a secret to be guarded. My detailed knowledge is 20 years out of date and not worth knowing, but we do have serving members who know a great deal.
All too easy to have a couple of drinks and accidentally help our enemies.
Just saying.

[finningleyprince]

Correct, and there's nothing like putting it all on one thread. It's the opportunity or temptation for some muppet to add to the stories...why risk it.
There is just a minute chance someone will inadvertently overstep the mark and cost a capability or worse, a life.

[evilroy]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/524x555/chemtrailcontroa_60ec4e07a00d2c68e807909ab7f2985b924f7238.jp g

[Whenurhappy]

Alcohol and secrets aren't always a good mix. I was at Branch association dinner at Halton House earlier this year and after a lot of drinks a Sqn Ldr blurted out which agency she had been working for - to a number of people. Whether people remembered is neither here nor there, but I understand it got back to her line manager. Cue a rapid posting...


ETA in an earlier post at an Embassy I had to remove an Army Sgt who became free-talking after a couple of beers. He had been warned and once the Ambassador got to hear of his behaviour, it was untenable for the Sgt to remain.there.

[MPN11]

I once worked in an area of extreme sensitivity (my desk diary was a registered TS document, for example) and was horrified when a certain 'thing' was named in the Media. It had been so sensitive that the codewords were never spoken except by their initials. Even now I feel reluctant to talk about it.

And many of you here know 'things' as well. The best course has always been to STFU, and carry on confining the subject matter to official channels, and to recipients who actually need to know.

Wishing you all a Happy and Discreet Christmas!

[ShyTorque]

I made a career out of knowing hardly anything!

[BVRAAM]

I made a career out of knowing hardly anything!

You must have been a politician...

[ShyTorque]

No, even I know more than that!

[cynicalint]

To (Mis) quote Bunny Gunston, ex RAF AEOp, pilot and ATC turned after-dinner speaker. " We can put boardings around the airfields to hide them, but people notice aircraft taking off and landing every now and then,. Consequently, the Government know where 90% of our airfields are." ( From "What goes up might come down" speech to ATC dinner, available on-line youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KbUNzi58wM )

[MG]

One of the best aspects of Pprune is when people get all sanctimonious! Always popcorn time.

[Doctor Cruces]

Obviously there are secret things going on which should never be discussed on open Forum, like details of current ops and investigations, but really what a load of tosh. There is very little that can't be deduced from reading articles on platform capability in the open press, or watching specialist TV channels or even ordinary TV channels over the vast amount available. There are obviously capabilities that are still far too secret to be shown on TV or in the aviation press but people can interpolate and project without being too far from the mark. Couple this to looking at ADSB now and then and following the King Air and Sentinel tracks and one can get a pretty good idea of where current (on the day) interest lies within the UK. I think that people overreacting and metaphorically calling "Beadwindow" is a little over the top. I'm with MG on this one, really entertaining sometimes!

[Countdown begins]

Obviously there are really secret things going on which should never be discussed on open Forum, like details of current ops and investigations, but really what a load of tosh. There is very little that can't be deduced from reading articles on platform capability in the open press, or watching specialist TV channels or even ordinary TV channels over the vast amount available. There are obviously capabilities that are still far too secret to be shown on TV or in the aviation press but people can interpolate and project without being too far from the mark. Couple this to looking at ADSB now and then and following the King Air and Sentinel tracks and one can get a pretty good idea of where current (on the day) interest lies within the UK. I think that people overreacting and metaphorically calling "Beadwindow" is a little over the top. I'm with MG on this one, really entertaining sometimes!

Gents, I do believe we have found Pike!!

[Doctor Cruces]

Gents, I do believe we have found Pike!!



OK, smartarse, what did I say that is incorrect? You are clearly one of those that I and MG find so entertaining/

[Countdown begins]

You and MG? As in sat together. Now can I ask you to think about what you post, rather than just blurt things out? Nuff said.

[Nige321]

Gents, I do believe we have found Pike!!

Or Typhoon93...:p

[MG]

You and MG? As in sat together. Now can I ask you to think about what you post, rather than just blurt things out? Nuff said.

Nope, not a scooby as to what that post means, but please keep it up, it detracts from having to watch Christmas telly.

[Video Mixdown]

OK, smartarse, what did I say that is incorrect? You are clearly one of those that I and MG find so entertaining/

Please keep lumbering on after the uptake. It's sure to tire eventually.

[SASless]

Was it an FAA pilot?



Please don’t drag our illustrious Federal Aviation Authority into this....the arguments are confused enough as it is!

[Asturias56]

Given the posts above about "Need to Know" and "Hush! Keep mum!!" the UK Govt's ability to endanger a load of people with a simple New Years Honours List makes it all look like people were barking up the wrong tree.............

[xenolith]

Those who know don't talk, those who talk don't know.

[beardy]

Those who know don't talk, those who talk don't know.
That will explain the explosion of ignorance 😁

[esscee]

As said earlier, after the "cock-up" at the Cabinet Office over the addresses on the New Year Honours List then surely any comments here regarding "secrecy" are now worthy of being extended to more of the Civil Service especially!

[pr00ne]

Remember when all addresses were published in the phone book? And anyone who is a company director has their full details including postal address published on the Companies House website.

[langleybaston]

At a guess I expect the "leaker" of personal details was about SEO level, unsupervised, output not checked, late at night.

And what will happen to him/her/self-identifying as/ ?

Very very difficult to sack, although such an error in the real world would call for it. Admonished, moved sideways, unpromotable probably.

I was such a civil servant, MoD. My output, and my people's output, was checked and signed for routinely.

The culprit certainly made a bad mistake, but the process was flawed, so somewhere up the chain is another person about to have a hard time.

If the civil service is to get the kick up the arse we are promised, the kicking could start here.

I do not hold my breath.

[pr00ne]

langleybaston,

In today's Civil Service this mistake was most likely committed by a contractor or a supplier, and in the Home Office a few levels above SEO for certain, not sure about how the Cabinet Office structures their grades and levels as they all differ by individual Dept when you get above SEO.

[langleybaston]

langleybaston,

In today's Civil Service this mistake was most likely committed by a contractor or a supplier, and in the Home Office a few levels above SEO for certain, not sure about how the Cabinet Office structures their grades and levels as they all differ by individual Dept when you get above SEO.

Thank you ................. I am surprised and disappointed but I suppose I should not be.

[Jimlad1]

Having significantly more direct & current knowledge than certain posters here on the issue of the breach, I'd suggest it is not contractors (CO doesnt rely on them in the main), and that cock up over conspiracy is what is likely to have happened here. I suspect the person who did it made a very genuine mistake, the shame of which they will carry for the rest of their life. For a first offence, I wouldnt look to fire them, I would look to see where the training went wrong to prevent this from happening in the first place.

Let he/she who hasnt at one stage in their life in HMG/Military not made an error cast the first stone here.

As for the utter muppets who assume that the original issue of the thread is a subject worthy of discussion because apparently the bad guys know it anyway - I'm not sure I have enough words in my dictionary to discuss the utter contempt I hold you in for wanting to put national security at risk for the sake of your pathetic ego.

[Asturias56]

They have my sympathies JimLad - I'll bet no-one ever mentioned that not everyone would want their addressii published. Probably it was the person who's job it is to write a puff for each local news outlet through the UK -"Mrs Scroggins of Acacia Drive was awarded an MBE " and they had no idea about security

[langleybaston]

Jimlad, most points taken but TRAINING needed?

Surely this is a process fault, a system fault?

May I give an example from my Met. career?

Aircraft landing at an airfield need [or used to need back in the day!] barometric pressure to set altimeter in order to to land at zero feet above touchdown point. This is safety critical, many a disaster can be laid at the door of a miss-set altimeter. If I remember correctly a 10 millibar error [very humanly possible] translates to 300 feet. Met. Office observer reads pressure every hour [and more often as needs be in periods of rapid changes] and reports it to ATC [and other interested parties].

Met. System to eradicate error. All transactions are timed/ recorded to nearest minute.
1. Observer has a running check board of pressure, thus sudden unexplained changes seen for what they are, and barometer read again by observer..
2. Forecaster or supervisor checks the pressure and initials as having checked
3. Observer passes pressure to ATC [along with remainder of weather observation] and in times of rapid change has it read back and obtains initials therefrom.

Apologies if the above is blindingly obvious.

Applicability to Honours List is, I submit, obvious. Don't blame the issuer, blame the system or blame the supervisor.

And I agree wholeheartedly about the muppets.

[Asturias56]

I have a feeling that the Honours System and words like Security, data protection, checking are a million miles apart.

[SWBKCB]

I have a feeling that the Honours System and words like Security, data protection, checking are a million miles apart.

A feeling? Well, we don't want facts getting in the way of another cheap shot, do we?

langleybaston will have it, lack of process.

[Easy Street]

I have a feeling that the Honours System and words like Security, data protection, checking are a million miles apart.

You couldn't be more wrong, well at least on the parts of the Honours system I've been involved with. It's one of the most closely-guarded things we do at classifications below SECRET. Recommendations and notes on deliberations are very tightly controlled. And as for checking, it's probably the most deliberated-over, proofread and redrafted-for-every-level-of-command pieces of work left in the e-working era. The whole process is hugely time-consuming, which unfortunately is why one of the critical determinants of success is having a commander who prioritises it sufficiently highly to spend hours producing perfectly-polished staff work. All very well being idealistic and saying that it's a commander's duty, but there are only so many working days that can be set aside for it (and that is the scale of time involved in doing it properly).

[esscee]

Common sense, logical thinking and the bleeding obvious for some reason appear not to be around that much these days, it isn't the first time something like this has occurred and probably won't be the last!

[Asturias56]

I'm sure it is in the services Easy - but at Cabinet Office etc? I doubt it - for a start it's hard to believe the brightest and the best in the Civil Service are involved in the twice yearly allocation of gongs (other than to ensure they get one) - most likely the office junior or someone seeing out time until their pension.

[Jimlad1]

I'm sure it is in the services Easy - but at Cabinet Office etc? I doubt it - for a start it's hard to believe the brightest and the best in the Civil Service are involved in the twice yearly allocation of gongs (other than to ensure they get one) - most likely the office junior or someone seeing out time until their pension.

Actually the Honours and Awards Secretariat is a pretty in demand place to work.

My instinct, nothing more, is that this may be as simple as someone attaching the wrong file to be published, and that it was as simple as that - click on the wrong attachment and send for publication.