Qantas selects Airbus over Boeing

[Imagegear]

Not unexpected - the chickens are coming home to roost....

Qantas selects Airbus (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-qantas-orders/qantas-selects-airbus-over-boeing-for-worlds-longest-flights-idUSKBN1YG2PX)

IG

[HowardB]

I was very surprised by the comment on the Simpleflying site (scroll down page to see this headline)

Another big blow for Boeing (https://simpleflying.com/project-sunrise-qantas/)

Where they suggest that " there has been speculation that the continued survivial of the 777X program was contingent on it being selected as the preferred Project Sunrise aircraft".

[Less Hair]

They announce to "prefer" the A350K but don't order it yet. It's still a big poker game it seems. Biggest drama and show for twelve aircraft ever.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

They have not ordered them yet because they may still not go ahead with the project.

[V-Jet]

They haven't ordered them because they haven't made a single decision about it as yet. They want a better deal from Boeing is how I read it. They need the money to pay for anything (except for management remuneration) and they want to destroy the pilot union. Any other union destroyed in the process is icing on the cake. The rest is column inches....

[WHBM]

They announce to "prefer" the A350K but don't order it yet. It's still a big poker game it seems. Biggest drama and show for twelve aircraft ever.
Not really, there comes a "preferred supplier" stage in such a commercial evaluation, where you no longer waste your time on evaluating the loser, quite some time before placing the formal order. It also allows Airbus to actually allocate them future production slots with now a reasonable likelihood of them being ordered. You can't keep this quiet with all the people involved in two major, and various minor, organisations, and in fact under current stock market rules you are not allowed to as otherwise it opens the way for insider trading.

I think they will need more than 12, converting the Perth to London flight is surely likely as well, along with the likes of San Francisco and Vancouver. Just because they are not at the absolute range extremity doesn't mean it's not an appropriate type for those runs. It can even be that, while the extreme range consideration slightly favours one type, the wider fleet consideration can tip it to the other, while outside commentators do not see the bigger picture.

[PerPurumTonantes]

It's not a huge order but it shows the way the wind is boeing.

nono, you're alright, I'll get my own coat thanks.

[swh]

I was very surprised by the comment on the Simpleflying site (scroll down page to see this headline)

Another big blow for Boeing (https://simpleflying.com/project-sunrise-qantas/)

Where they suggest that " there has been speculation that the continued survivial of the 777X program was contingent on it being selected as the preferred Project Sunrise aircraft".

I think that is down to EK cancelling 40+ 777s, which I understand includes all of the 777-8 on order, around 10 777-9, and 6 7777-300ER.

Without EK and QF onboard for the 777-8, I think that derivative maybe still born.

[Mr @ Spotty M]

They are not in a position to order, until the pilots agree new terms and most importantly CASA has to approve of the operation.
They also still have one test flight to complete.
Hence the go ahead one way or other is going to be in March 2020.

[packapoo]

They announce to "prefer" the A350K . Biggest drama and show for twelve aircraft ever.

That has an Australian ring to it......

[kiwi grey]

I think they will need more than 12, converting the Perth to London flight is surely likely as well, along with the likes of San Francisco and Vancouver. Just because they are not at the absolute range extremity doesn't mean it's not an appropriate type for those runs. It can even be that, while the extreme range consideration slightly favours one type, the wider fleet consideration can tip it to the other, while outside commentators do not see the bigger picture.

I think this is the real significance.
If an order for the A350 goes ahead, it will rule out the B777 for future QANTAS twin-aisle fleet replacements: they'll surely buy some model of either the B787 or the A350, as these will already be in their fleet, rather than adding a third type.

[chance]

The AIPA (pilots Union) have yet to agree on whether they will agree to staff these ultra long haul flight approaching 20 hrs flight time so the decision is delayed until the Enterprise Bargaining Agreement is in place. No point in placing an order of any brand if there is no one prepared to operate the aircraft.

[Rated De]

For twelve months the media had story after story on specifications, "research" and menus.
Column inches devoted to rubbish.

All for an aircraft off the shelf with a whole additional fuel tank.

Whilst the regulator is duplicitous and will wave through any "commercial case" there is zero science supporting the health outcomes.

Further, they have not ordered an aircraft. Point in fact Qantas have not ordered a solitary aircraft for the entire tenure of the current management, in excess of a decade. That is some evaluation period.

[Willie Nelson]

Apart from a bit of token hand wringing what are the odds that CASA doesn’t approve the operation.......discuss.

[Check Airman]

Pardon the silly question, but what does the AIPA have to do with the length of the sector? Isn't the airline simply responsible for providing adequate rest facilities? Outsider looking in.

[Australopithecus]

Qantas doesn’t operate long haul with two crews, just two added S/Os who perform cruise relief duties. The long term health effects haven’t been adequately assessed yet, and neither has the “adequate “ definition been agreed to.

That the company wants crews to take less money AND introduce a B scale complicates things too. The industrial regulatory situation in Australia is skewed against unions, so the pilots have to take every opportunity to secure pay and conditions.

[OMAAbound]

Excuse my ignorance, but wouldn’t one way to circumnavigate the current Union be to do something similar that BA did with their cabin crew? Create a ‘new’ contract only for project sunrise pilots, with different stipulations on it which makes them operate the ULH flights? Then put it out for new DEFO/DEC positions?

if not, I’m sure the whole ‘Shiney Jet’ idea will get them converted!?

OMAA

[Mr @ Spotty M]

OMAAbound, problem with that, part of the proposed contract is they will also fly the A330 fleet.
As for CASA, those of you that have had dealing's with them know that they can be behind the times and difficult to work with, some might say "anal". :ugh:

[cessnapete]

Qantas doesn’t operate long haul with two crews, just two added S/Os who perform cruise relief duties. The long term health effects haven’t been adequately assessed yet, and neither has the “adequate “ definition been agreed to.

That the company wants crews to take less money AND introduce a B scale complicates things too. The industrial regulatory situation in Australia is skewed against unions, so the pilots have to take every opportunity to secure pay and conditions.



Having seen the crew rest in the present QF787 it seems a very basic setup for such ultra long sectors. No completely separate bunk area for each pilot, but presumably a dedicated crew toilet?
The UK company I worked for use a proper double crew for the longer sectors (ie Lhr Sin) 2 Captains/ 2 F/O ( not cruise only S/O, the airline only operates with fully qualified F/Os.)
All fleets have separate crew rest compartments, and dedicated crew toilets. I would want that as a bare minimum.

[Check Airman]

Qantas doesn’t operate long haul with two crews, just two added S/Os who perform cruise relief duties. The long term health effects haven’t been adequately assessed yet, and neither has the “adequate “ definition been agreed to.

That the company wants crews to take less money AND introduce a B scale complicates things too. The industrial regulatory situation in Australia is skewed against unions, so the pilots have to take every opportunity to secure pay and conditions.

Thanks. Hope you guys don’t allow them to take advantage of you. The industry is strong now. Not the time for concessions.

[Pearly White]

Apart from a bit of token hand wringing what are the odds that CASA doesn’t approve the operation.......discuss.

Nil. Zip. Nada.

[PJ2]

That the company wants crews to take less money AND introduce a B scale complicates things too. The industrial regulatory situation in Australia is skewed against unions, so the pilots have to take every opportunity to secure pay and conditions.
Many of us watched this kind of thinking & hiring unfold through the eighties & nineties. Many potential young pilots took a look and decided, "US$16,000/year for an F/O job?", and went elsewhere for careers and profession.

The MBAs will do what they will regardless of historical results, but now is not the time for airlines to restart planning for pilots-on-the-cheap.

[cxorcist]

I think this is the real significance.
If an order for the A350 goes ahead, it will rule out the B777 for future QANTAS twin-aisle fleet replacements: they'll surely buy some model of either the B787 or the A350, as these will already be in their fleet, rather than adding a third type.
Hmmm, pretty tough to replace aging 744s and eventually 380s with 35Ks. Therefore, it seems 779 is a certainty at some point. Waiting until proven at other carriers with all the bugs worked out is probably a prudent strategy. The 778 hasn’t even firmed its configuration yet, although I suspect this will be done around the freighter version.

The super ultra long haul market (SYD-LHR/JFK) is very small in global terms. I suspect it would be unwise to compromise the rest of the market by chasing the “Project Sunrise”. That said, 778 was supposed to be the greatest aircraft ever for this type of market. Boeing is obviously having problems with 777X as well as 737MAX. Brain drain??? Certainly no capacity for NMA at the moment.

[rubik101]

maybe still born and stillborn mean the opposite!