AOAE sells out.

[reazasassain]

Not even a year has passed since the HKAOA attempted to sell out its membership with a miserable proposal that was inevitably rejected by 80% of the membership. The union was in a position where they could have used this leverage to forge a new path forward. Instead history may look back at this moment as the downfall of the AOA. The leadership who was hell bent on trying to ram this down the memberships throats dug their heals in and fought the very group they are meant to represent.

Now an update from AOAE mirrors the exact sentiment of what happened in 2018 in Hong Kong. The recommendation of this pay deal with conditions to abandon their allies is appalling. The offer should have been flat out rejected.

it is clear that something needs to changed. To many in the AOA have been in their position for far to long. The membership no longer has confidence in their actions and it’s time to take control of our future before there is no future left.

[cxorcist]

So you will be putting your hands up for the Committee and changing things? If so, I wish you luck. Get a bunch of your mates to do the same.

[Hugo Peroni the V]

it’s hardly surprising with the self-interest that comes from the top of the AOAE GC.

Anyone care to share the update?

So you will be putting your hands up for the Committee and changing things? If so, I wish you luck. Get a bunch of your mates to do the same.

[BalloonBuster]

So, by voting yes we get:

More money.
No more being in contract compliance over HKPA. Something which should have never happened anyway. To all you idiots that signed that inferior contract: sort it out yourselves !!
And we will finally be standing on our own by being separated from that clown show called HKAOA.

This vote really is a no-brainer, isn't it....

[Pickuptruck]

So, by voting yes we get:

More money.
No more being in contract compliance over HKPA. Something which should have never happened anyway. To all you idiots that signed that inferior contract: sort it out yourselves !!
And we will finally be standing on our own by being separated from that clown show called HKAOA.

This vote really is a no-brainer, isn't it....
What is amazing is that it's taken this long for the based Unions to start fu*king over HKAOA members. The based unions (who wouldn't actually even be here if it wasn't for a Hong Kong Airline) have the leverage through the courts to get whatever they want at the expense of Hong Kong. The Australian base crew getting all the long patterns to Europe is the tip of the iceberg. Expect AOAE to come up with similar.

[Flex88]

Anyone thinking they are going to get more salary and "improved " COS are way way way too late.. That ship sailed 10 years ago and in the last 6 months; sank !!
Any reference to improvements will be punch lines in comedy routines to get a laugh..

Truth sucks...

#CXit

[Apple Tree Yard]

Improvements?? Everyone of us can expect further erosion to our terms and conditions. What is happening now in HK is the perfect storm of opportunity to extract more concessions from the most divided pilot group in the history of aviation. Sorry if that's not pleasing, but it is the truth. If there was any doubt about the value of a career in CX, that is now ended. You would have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to see the iceberg just ahead of this Titanic.

(oh, and Pickuptruck, the based unions aren't f*cking over the HK pilots, the company is f*cking over the HK pilots. The based pilots are simply using what leverage they have to improve and protect their conditions, just like we would here in HK if we had any self respect and balls).

[Frogman1484]

So the AOAE does it's own thing, the Canadians moved away a while ago, members are leaving in droves, the training ban is broken Contract compliance is a joke...and you still think that the company is to blame...Out of all of those items there is only one common thread...maybe the HKAOA is the problem with their dogma determination to continue to dig in its current position!

[AQIS Boigu]

Not the AOA but RF and his “in house legal”

Whilst the based unions have all the power there is always the “agree to this or we will close the base” sword of Damocles hanging over their heads.

Lets see what the Aussies come up with in the next few weeks.

So the AOAE does it's own thing, the Canadians moved away a while ago, members are leaving in droves, the training ban is broken Contract compliance is a joke...and you still think that the company is to blame...Out of all of those items there is only one common thread...maybe the HKAOA is the problem with their dogma determination to continue to dig in its current position!

[LongTimeInCX]

Aquis Boigu
Let's see what the Aussies come up with in the next few weeks.
you won't have to wait long.
Their voting on the offer started around 19 Dec.
It seems the results should be known around 30 Dec.
From what I hear, the nominal pay and hdp changes were minuscule, and the close to 2 missing years were not to be backdated.
There were significant degradation and changes to medical, which anecdotally appear to be why a few Aust Base guys I chatted to as they passed through hk last week, indicated unanimously that they were all in the 'No' camp.
So the likely result, based on that small cross section sounds like a convincing thank you for coming but no.

[Frogman1484]

Frank...when was the last time you pitch up at dispatch knowing your flight had changed and that flight was consequently delayed or cancelled? Come on, it does not take a brain surgeon to figure out that CC has zero effect on the day to day operation...even with a red traffic light!
The GC can’t even be bothered to reply to the multiple company requests to restart pay negotiations, you can see all of the letters on the HUB.

The one thing you are right about is that it is up to the individual to decide if they are going to stay or leave, it has always been that way at CX so now surprises there.

[Frogman1484]

What we need is a complete clean slate and brand new ideas rather than sticking to the failed ideas of the past.

[Paul852]

What we need is a complete clean slate and brand new ideas rather than sticking to the failed ideas of the past.
Equally true of Mrs Lam's administration!

[RAT Management]

What we need is a complete clean slate and brand new ideas rather than sticking to the failed ideas of the past.
Actually some of the failed ideas of the past were a direct result of the pilot body not sticking with the imposed sanctions. The problem lies firmly with the pilot body. The GC is hindered by the weak unity the pilot body displays. Until this union is United, which is laughable, nothing will ever change. Just resign and get your own pay rise.

[Frogman1484]

The union should be attacking the Cos18 at every turn, stop the guys from joining, not hurting he guys that are here already. There are many ways the AOA could be discouraging new joiners.

[pill]

Frog, have you learnt nothing from history? If we can’t grow a dick collectively and fight from within, we are destined to wither on the vine.
What you going to do, give them the cold shoulder?

[DropKnee]

Maybe the CX pilots can conscript people with courage to strike for them. No strike, no change. Can not ask others to do your heavy lifting.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Frog, have you learnt nothing from history? If we can’t grow a dick collectively and fight from within, we are destined to wither on the vine.
What you going to do, give them the cold shoulder?

..."we are destined to wither on the vine"....? I would say we HAVE withered on the vine. It's too late. The airline is broken and the future is COS18. The latest "commuting" proposal clearly shows you how the quality of life on any contract on any base is only going to get worse.

[Hugo Peroni the V]

Makes the new TCCs luminaries!


..."we are destined to wither on the vine"....? I would say we HAVE withered on the vine. It's too late. The airline is broken and the future is COS18. The latest "commuting" proposal clearly shows you how the quality of life on any contract on any base is only going to get worse.

[Natca]

I think the jellyfish is more fishing for a union bust attempt with he last remarks rather than a sellout

"I appreciate that an increasing number of you are not members of the HKAOA"

[Frogman1484]

I think the jellyfish is more fishing for a union bust attempt with he last remarks rather than a sellout

"I appreciate that an increasing number of you are not members of the HKAOA"

I think he is right...a lot of guys have left the AOA after getting the the subsidy refund.

[Pickuptruck]

Improvements?? Everyone of us can expect further erosion to our terms and conditions. What is happening now in HK is the perfect storm of opportunity to extract more concessions from the most divided pilot group in the history of aviation. Sorry if that's not pleasing, but it is the truth. If there was any doubt about the value of a career in CX, that is now ended. You would have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to see the iceberg just ahead of this Titanic.

(oh, and Pickuptruck, the based unions aren't f*cking over the HK pilots, the company is f*cking over the HK pilots. The based pilots are simply using what leverage they have to improve and protect their conditions, just like we would here in HK if we had any self respect and balls).
So the Aussies have just forced the company to give Australian based guys first dibs on all the long patterns airbus patterns out of Hong Kong. So, irrespective of seniority, if you're on the Airbus fleet in Hkg it just got way harder to be able to bid for any long layovers in Europe. And let's not forget the Aussie base putting their hands up for training positions with the full support of AOAA. Or seniority weighing and the ramifications for HKG based rosters. Maybe it was the AOAA GC member telling me "We don't give a f*ck about the HKG base, were here for us"
Not F*cking over , Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
ATY don't insult my intelligence. Every base, and the DPA for that matter, have taken what they can at the expense of AOA HKG.
F*ck it, I'll go on. The London bases not opening because although HKG based guys wanted to bid for what the company was offering, AOAE wouldn't let the company release them. The DPA, getting healthy pay raises for their members based on rejecting a training ban while helping the company with the DPA's "training solution", the leverage of which they didn't have without TB/CC.
ATY what you're saying is utter utter utter BS.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Pickuptruck. Feel better now you've got that off your chest? (as for "insulting" your intelligence....hmmm).

[AllWobbly]

So the Aussies have just forced the company to give Australian based guys first dibs on all the long patterns airbus patterns out of Hong Kong. So, irrespective of seniority, if you're on the Airbus fleet in Hkg it just got way harder to be able to bid for any long layovers in Europe. And let's not forget the Aussie base putting their hands up for training positions with the full support of AOAA. Or seniority weighing and the ramifications for HKG based rosters. Maybe it was the AOAA GC member telling me "We don't give a f*ck about the HKG base, were here for us"
Not F*cking over , Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
ATY don't insult my intelligence. Every base, and the DPA for that matter, have taken what they can at the expense of AOA HKG.
F*ck it, I'll go on. The London bases not opening because although HKG based guys wanted to bid for what the company was offering, AOAE wouldn't let the company release them. The DPA, getting healthy pay raises for their members based on rejecting a training ban while helping the company with the DPA's "training solution", the leverage of which they didn't have without TB/CC.
ATY what you're saying is utter utter utter BS.

Yes and we let it happen......

[cxorcist]

So the Aussies have just forced the company to give Australian based guys first dibs on all the long patterns airbus patterns out of Hong Kong. So, irrespective of seniority, if you're on the Airbus fleet in Hkg it just got way harder to be able to bid for any long layovers in Europe. And let's not forget the Aussie base putting their hands up for training positions with the full support of AOAA. Or seniority weighing and the ramifications for HKG based rosters. Maybe it was the AOAA GC member telling me "We don't give a f*ck about the HKG base, were here for us"
Not F*cking over , Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
ATY don't insult my intelligence. Every base, and the DPA for that matter, have taken what they can at the expense of AOA HKG.
F*ck it, I'll go on. The London bases not opening because although HKG based guys wanted to bid for what the company was offering, AOAE wouldn't let the company release them. The DPA, getting healthy pay raises for their members based on rejecting a training ban while helping the company with the DPA's "training solution", the leverage of which they didn't have without TB/CC.
ATY what you're saying is utter utter utter BS.
Not sure about the accuracy of your rant, but you come across as unhinged. As for longer patterns for Oz based Airbus pilots, it makes sense to me. Longer layovers in Europe or elsewhere if integrating from Oz via HK seems safer to me. I’m sure the BAM would agree. I’m not sure why that would even have to be negotiated. Seems like common sense.

[LongTimeInCX]

CXorcist, couldn't agree more.
Unless pickup truck is privy to secret negotiations that none of us mere mortals know about, I'd be inclined to think he's full of it. Sounds like he has a blocked valve. Sure some of the based guys are picking up occasional ULH flights, but that's just part and parcel of CMP. Do you hear Aus based guy's complaining if a hk guy does an Aus trip? Seriously, it just sounds like pick up truck has a thing against any based guys. I'd like one, but not under the current penalizing situation.
We all should be pulling together, not facilitating the interunion or interpilot fighting which the Company use to divide and conquer.
Perhaps in HK, our union could foster and generate the same level of engagement that the Australian union have with their pilots.
I'm told by a based colleague, that their vote, which finished yesterday on their very lengthy negotiations, had a a near total TURNOUT where 97% of the members voted on the companies offer.
Of those voters, around 92% voted against in a very cohesive statement to reinforce the disconnect with the companies attempt to reduce T&C's.
Perhaps if we in hk had such a similar united approach as the Aus based guys, and had a better voter turnout, the result could only be better surely?

[reazasassain]

The jelly fish and his minions are laughing it up while they put the screws to all the unions. They set the deck long ago by pitting the pilot groups against each with multiple contracts with conflicting terms and conditions. The fear that one group will screw them so we better screw then first mentality has led to a toxic environment. The unions are no different, with 5 different associations with differing interests and no coordination to speak of. Each union is represented with individuals who have selfish interests that generally do not always represent the best interests of the pilot body. I think we can all agree that maybe pilots shouldn’t be left to over seeing our union. In Hong Kong we are witnessing one of the most divisive GCs in my memory. An elected body that after the membership overwhelmingly rejected their proposal they dug their heels in and refuse to let New blood in who may actually work for the members instead of being company moles.

i would think it’s safe to say there is a swamp in the AOA and it needs to be drained before we ever get real representation. But I don’t think there will ever be an end to willingness of Certain individuals to Build up their own ego by willing to help out at any chance they get. But like I said the deck has been stacked against us long ago.

Happy New Year.

[Gnadenburg]

-and the DPA for that matter, have taken what they can at the expense of AOA HKG.

- DPA, getting healthy pay raises for their members based on rejecting a training ban while helping the company with the DPA's "training solution", the leverage of which they didn't have without TB/CC.



The DPA compounded small pay increases for industrial harmony over at least the last decade. The alternative was a destructive contract compliance campaign and heavy attrition which the company was not in a position to manage. I'm not sure what the AOA had to do with this? I'm grateful for the DPA's more measured response because our CC is far more savage than yours.

The training ban was not about training CX pilots. It was an industrial leverage. A separate issue is why were KA pilots training CX pilots? I never agreed though was never presented as a DPA member with AOA objections. For all the huff and puff, the numbers seemed negligible in the end and it surprised me KA 's training capacity not utilised fully.

So what else should I have done for you professionally Pickuptruck? Keep your moral lashings reasonable and accurate though !

[Pickuptruck]

Not sure about the accuracy of your rant, but you come across as unhinged. As for longer patterns for Oz based Airbus pilots, it makes sense to me. Longer layovers in Europe or elsewhere if integrating from Oz via HK seems safer to me. I’m sure the BAM would agree. I’m not sure why that would even have to be negotiated. Seems like common sense.
So a year 6 F/O on a base should have bidding seniority over a year 10 F/O who is based in Hong Kong? Makes sense. Then when you think back to the court case where the bases wanted all new command slots to only be available to those F/O already on the base, locking out Hkg skippers, it makes even more sense.
At the moment the company isn’t giving an inch, the bases have legal leverage through their contract on the base so something or someone has to give.
The based unions are doing the best for their members. As they should. If you’re on a base I’m full of **** because you are at the end of the day taking from your colleagues. If you’re in hkg I’m full of **** because the other (awkward) option is you stand up to this.
Everything I’ve mentioned has been there to be read on AOA and Yammer, burying your head in the sand is way easier though.
And calling me unhinged is easier than admitting the truth.

[cxorcist]

So a year 6 F/O on a base should have bidding seniority over a year 10 F/O who is based in Hong Kong? Makes sense. Then when you think back to the court case where the bases wanted all new command slots to only be available to those F/O already on the base, locking out Hkg skippers, it makes even more sense.
At the moment the company isn’t giving an inch, the bases have legal leverage through their contract on the base so something or someone has to give.
The based unions are doing the best for their members. As they should. If you’re on a base I’m full of **** because you are at the end of the day taking from your colleagues. If you’re in hkg I’m full of **** because the other (awkward) option is you stand up to this.
Everything I’ve mentioned has been there to be read on AOA and Yammer, burying your head in the sand is way easier though.
And calling me unhinged is easier than admitting the truth.

No Putruck, your first post was a rant and seemed unhinged. This recent post is much more sensible. No offense. We’ve all been there.

I think the problem is your assumption that ANY base (including HK) is entitled to ANY specific flying (layover destination, duration, etc) is wrong. Who gets what flying between separate bases is not a seniority issue. It’s determined by the CMP in conjunction with BAM to maximize productivity and minimize fatigue.

Just to be clear, whether NAM or Oz based pilots fly India is not determined by seniority. Whether EU pilots fly regional or all longhaul is not a seniority issue. Whether Kiwi pilots or HK get the Male layover is not a seniority issue. Within a base, of course seniority is important for roster construction, but not between bases. It’s like this in every airline that I’m familiar.

Btw, the AAOA rejected the TA, so the argument is moot. You should focus your energies elsewhere imo.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Although I benefit from the (somewhat) stable rosters on a base, I do see Pickuptrucks point (and yes...it did come across as a bit of a rant). If the bases monopolise most of the productive long haul flying (not only from their own base areas to HK and back, but also other long haul areas out of HK and back), eventually the HK pilots (many of high seniority) will be reduced to doing nothing but the integrated regional bs patterns. Not only that, but they will effectively have any chance of consecutive days off being reduced to the minimum. No opportunity to commute, or even a semblance of proper lifestyle. Ultimately, there has to be some sort of balance in how the flying is distributed. Will that happen, probably not knowing CX.

[cxorcist]

Although I benefit from the (somewhat) stable rosters on a base, I do see Pickuptrucks point (and yes...it did come across as a bit of a rant). If the bases monopolise most of the productive long haul flying (not only from their own base areas to HK and back, but also other long haul areas out of HK and back), eventually the HK pilots (many of high seniority) will be reduced to doing nothing but the integrated regional bs patterns. Not only that, but they will effectively have any chance of consecutive days off being reduced to the minimum. No opportunity to commute, or even a semblance of proper lifestyle. Ultimately, there has to be some sort of balance in how the flying is distributed. Will that happen, probably not knowing CX.
Firstly, the bases are unlikely to ever be so large as to take up all the longhaul flying, which isn’t to say that bases couldn’t make it more senior in HK bidding due to less overall flying. Second, mixed crew flying is to everyone’s benefit. It is a common sense fatigue mitigation tool that should be maximized. Lastly, bases are by and large staffed by more senior crew, so the argument about 10 year FOs in HK and 6 year FOs on the base is not the prevailing issue, although it does exist. Again, I simply do not think HK is entitled to specific flying anymore than a base is.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Not arguing your fair points Cxorcist (other than I believe the bases could easily take up 60-70% of LH flying). I can only comment that there is clear evidence of the HK based pilots quality of roster deteriorating. The latest "commuting" proposal will only lead to more of the same. On a base, we at least are guaranteed 4-6 long haul sectors a month. My best friend, still in HK, is lucky to get 2 LH sectors a month, and the rest is miserable integrated crap. Ultimately, CX is probably focused on making things more and more difficult for everyone, no matter where based, in order to coerce contract conditions (witness the latest comment regarding the Oz bases). I might add that it is in CX's interest to degrade the HK rosters, in order to force more people to elect the commuting roster package. No one is immune from the machinations of our management, only that the HK pilots seem to be getting the worse of everything right now. It really goes to show how different legal systems either hinder CX management, or allow them free reign. No prizes for guessing which one of those two realities HK falls into.