BA to Virgin

[HardLanding1]

Hi All,

I’m currently a junior LH P2 at BA and can honestly say I’m really not happy with it. The people I fly with are great, but I find that the company is toxic and the rosters untenable. As it stands I’m looking to jump ship and Virgin seems like the obvious choice as I like doing LH.

I’ve done a fair bit of research on life at Virgin, but as a lot less people are moaning about it on here, and I don’t know any other VS pilots, it’s quite hard for me to paint a full picture. Are there any VS pilots here that could clear some things up for me? (Even better if it’s someone who’s done a BA-VS move). In particular I’ve got the following q’s:

1: How are the rosters and what dictates taken a 3rd (and 4th?) pilot? I know about the 750 limit and rotating seniority, but not much more than that.

2: How is crew interaction? Is there an obvious FD/CC split or do people socialise and act as a whole crew

3: I’ve read rumours about a B pay scale, have these materialised and would I likely be recruited into it if so?

4: How easy is it to commute and how does staff travel work?

and any other insights/info you can give would be greatly appreciated!

ATB

[GKOC41]

So you went from TUI 787 to BA 320 - are you after the holly grail of Aviation?
If I was VS i'd be thinking do I want you....

[Stuntpiloot]

So you went from TUI 787 to BA 320 - are you after the holly grail of Aviation?
If I was VS i'd be thinking do I want you....
That’s some nice positive feedback you’re giving.. Think “HardLanding1” will really value your input!

[sudden twang]

So you went from TUI 787 to BA 320 - are you after the holly grail of Aviation?
If I was VS i'd be thinking do I want you....
though he/ she said they were BA LH..

i too would be interested in an answer to the OP

[wiggy]

So you went from TUI 787 to BA 320 - are you after the holly grail of Aviation?
..

He/she said they were...” LH”...i.e. Long haul..

Leaving opinions about management aside :oh: the OP wouldn’t be the first person at BA considering looking for a Holy Grail, that probably being defined as an airline that doesn’t roster an under established pilot work force using JSS....

A lot of people are finding it pretty grim and from what I have heard some are considering their options, especially those newish joiners yet to be shackled to BA by increasing seniority.

I reckon there will be more than a few paying attention to this thread.

[Twiglet1]

He/she said they were...” LH”...i.e. Long haul..

Leaving opinions about management aside :oh: the OP wouldn’t be the first person at BA considering looking for a Holy Grail, that probably being defined as an airline that doesn’t roster an under established pilot work force using JSS....

A lot of people are finding it pretty grim and from what I have heard some are considering their options, especially those newish joiners yet to be shackled to BA by increasing seniority.

I reckon there will be more than a few paying attention to this thread.

Maybe he/she was offered LH then changed to 320? Any decent recruiter will ask the same questions as TUI gave that LH option on 787 also.

[VJW]

Maybe he/she was offered LH then changed to 320? Any decent recruiter will ask the same questions as TUI gave that LH option on 787 also.
​

Hi All,

I’m currently a junior LH P2 at BA and can honestly say I’m really not happy with it. The people I fly with are great, but I find that the company is toxic and the rosters untenable. As it stands I’m looking to jump ship and Virgin seems like the obvious choice as I like doing LH.
How is there so much confusion around this point?

[DCT_ELSIR]

Is there the ability to switch long haul fleets at VS?

[Riskybis]

It’s what works best for you , I was similar to yourself and made the jump to Virgin and I’m happy with my choice .
By no means is Virgin AMAZING but it does have some good perks and the 750hrs is definitely the golden egg !
If you don’t mind flying basically the same routes month after month then It’s not that bad

[HardLanding1]

Okay to clear some things up, although I’ve no idea why the assumption has been made: I haven’t gone from TUI 787 to BA A320 and I don’t see why it would make any difference if I had. I’m not after any holy grail. It’s just that I’ve joined BA, and I’ll happily admit, I probably did it with rose tinted glasses, and I’ve since found out that it doesn’t work for me at all, so I want to move, nothing more, nothing less.

Wiggy has pretty much hit the nail on the head, it mostly comes down to JSS, and I know for sure I’m not the only one.

[aot549566]

Hardlanding,

I’m in the same boat as you. Currently very junior on the a320 based out of Gatwick and looking at jumping ship to Virgin. You mention that most folk are fine to fly with. Whilst I agree with this statement, I can’t help but notice that it is very noticable when flying with a skipper who is ex easyJet, Monarch, TUI etc. The atmosphere and day just tends to be a little bit more relaxed and enjoyable. Just an observation I’ve personally made...

How long does it take to for a Manchester base? Ive searched everywhere but can’t find an answer to this. Also, I’ve read recently that Virgin are looking to expand operations out of Manchester significantly and take a lot of the Thomas cook slots and that Virgin see MAN as their potential second hub? Also, I’m interested to know more about this pay B scale too? What is the current take home for a new FO approximately (as it stands not inc the B scale).

A couple of example rosters for different fleets would be great to see too if available.

Cheers in advance.

Any help or info is much appreciated.



Hi All,

I’m currently a junior LH P2 at BA and can honestly say I’m really not happy with it. The people I fly with are great, but I find that the company is toxic and the rosters untenable. As it stands I’m looking to jump ship and Virgin seems like the obvious choice as I like doing LH.

I’ve done a fair bit of research on life at Virgin, but as a lot less people are moaning about it on here, and I don’t know any other VS pilots, it’s quite hard for me to paint a full picture. Are there any VS pilots here that could clear some things up for me? (Even better if it’s someone who’s done a BA-VS move). In particular I’ve got the following q’s:

1: How are the rosters and what dictates taken a 3rd (and 4th?) pilot? I know about the 750 limit and rotating seniority, but not much more than that.

2: How is crew interaction? Is there an obvious FD/CC split or do people socialise and act as a whole crew

3: I’ve read rumours about a B pay scale, have these materialised and would I likely be recruited into it if so?

4: How easy is it to commute and how does staff travel work?

and any other insights/info you can give would be greatly appreciated!

ATB

[3wings]

So trying to cut through the BS that has been spouted after Hardlanding1 asked a simple question.

750 hrs is the standard contract, part time may be available further down the road

Third pilot on trips with Block time greater than 9hr 30min. 4th pilot evaporated years ago.

If you are airbus qualified you will go airbus fleet, likewise Boeing.

Airbus Fleet currently A333/A332 and A350 coming into service now. From approx 2021 all A330s being replaced with A330 Neo.

Many people commute, but very dependent on which fleet and how many trips you have in a month. I commuted from North of M62 for 12 years, easier to do when you're younger!
Staff travel after 6 months and too much to cover here!
Boeing Fleet, A few 744s left, not sure how long they have got, rumours of extensions. Rest of the Fleet 787.

787s have the better long haul destinations with longer lay overs. Airbus shorter trips, generally one nighters but a few longer ones. A350 will have a mix of longer and shorter trips and we are planned to be single fleet A330/350, not sure yet how that will work out.

FD/CC socially still good but not as mad as it used to be......probably a good thing! Compared with what I have heard 100% better than BA, but as I have never experienced BA I can't categorically comment.

If you have less than 3000hrs you may start on a lower salary than last year due to the intro of 2 new lower pay scales. Not a B scale.

No job is perfect, its horses for courses and this old horse has been quite happy for 16 years.

Hope that helps and good luck.

[Riskybis]

So trying to cut through the BS that has been spouted after Hardlanding1 asked a simple question.

750 hrs is the standard contract, part time may be available further down the road

Third pilot on trips with Block time greater than 9hr 30min. 4th pilot evaporated years ago.

If you are airbus qualified you will go airbus fleet, likewise Boeing.

Airbus Fleet currently A333/A332 and A350 coming into service now. From approx 2021 all A330s being replaced with A330 Neo.

Many people commute, but very dependent on which fleet and how many trips you have in a month. I commuted from North of M62 for 12 years, easier to do when you're younger!
Staff travel after 6 months and too much to cover here!
Boeing Fleet, A few 744s left, not sure how long they have got, rumours of extensions. Rest of the Fleet 787.

787s have the better long haul destinations with longer lay overs. Airbus shorter trips, generally one nighters but a few longer ones. A350 will have a mix of longer and shorter trips and we are planned to be single fleet A330/350, not sure yet how that will work out.

FD/CC socially still good but not as mad as it used to be......probably a good thing! Compared with what I have heard 100% better than BA, but as I have never experienced BA I can't categorically comment.

If you have less than 3000hrs you may start on a lower salary than last year due to the intro of 2 new lower pay scales. Not a B scale.

No job is perfect, its horses for courses and this old horse has been quite happy for 16 years.

Hope that helps and good luck.

what he said

[Wodka]

Same boat as the OP and looking to move ASAP.

BA have lost me with the actions they took against us during the strike. Now I treat it as a purely transactional relationship - come in fly the ridiculous 6 trips a month and go home. Nothing else. It’s a toxic atmosphere and it won’t change anytime soon. A real shame.

[HardLanding1]

So trying to cut through the BS that has been spouted after Hardlanding1 asked a simple question.

750 hrs is the standard contract, part time may be available further down the road

Third pilot on trips with Block time greater than 9hr 30min. 4th pilot evaporated years ago.

If you are airbus qualified you will go airbus fleet, likewise Boeing.

Airbus Fleet currently A333/A332 and A350 coming into service now. From approx 2021 all A330s being replaced with A330 Neo.

Many people commute, but very dependent on which fleet and how many trips you have in a month. I commuted from North of M62 for 12 years, easier to do when you're younger!
Staff travel after 6 months and too much to cover here!
Boeing Fleet, A few 744s left, not sure how long they have got, rumours of extensions. Rest of the Fleet 787.

787s have the better long haul destinations with longer lay overs. Airbus shorter trips, generally one nighters but a few longer ones. A350 will have a mix of longer and shorter trips and we are planned to be single fleet A330/350, not sure yet how that will work out.

FD/CC socially still good but not as mad as it used to be......probably a good thing! Compared with what I have heard 100% better than BA, but as I have never experienced BA I can't categorically comment.

If you have less than 3000hrs you may start on a lower salary than last year due to the intro of 2 new lower pay scales. Not a B scale.

No job is perfect, its horses for courses and this old horse has been quite happy for 16 years.

Hope that helps and good luck.

Thanks that's exactly the answer I was looking for, cheers for your help.

[The Range]

Quite a few unhappy pilots at BA, many looking for a way out. That would be unheard of 20 years ago.

[bex88]

LHS 320, exhausted and fed up. I consider leaving but keep on doing nothing. As the time passes it gets harder to leave. If you are going to jump then do it now. Don’t end up stuck through fear of leaving for something else.

Hopefully the “relationship reset” will help.........:rolleyes:

JSS is a disaster, easily working 15% more with exhausting trip constructions of 6 day blocks of early starts. All I ask for is a max 5 day block and in the last two months all my blocks are 6 days.

Jet2 DEC A321........

[2 Whites 2 Reds]

LHS 320, exhausted and fed up. I consider leaving but keep on doing nothing. As the time passes it gets harder to leave. If you are going to jump then do it now. Don’t end up stuck through fear of leaving for something else.

Hopefully the “relationship reset” will help.........:rolleyes:

JSS is a disaster, easily working 15% more with exhausting trip constructions of 6 day blocks of early starts. All I ask for is a max 5 day block and in the last two months all my blocks are 6 days.

Jet2 DEC A321........

RHS LH 5 Years in......totally fed up. The lack of a home life and missing my kids growing up as a result of the seriously unbalanced work / home relationship is rapidly reaching breaking point. Trip - 2 days off - Trip 2 days off with almost every weekend at work is unsustainable. Yes the money is ok, the pension is good and most people I fly with are really good guys (and girls) but at what cost, burning out in my 50's? I'm starting to look at part time options but concerned by the hit my pension will take in the long run bearing in mind I'm only in my early 30's. Who on earth used to NEED to go part time in their 30's prior to JSS!

I've got a couple of mates waiting to start at VS who were caught up in the demise of TCX and I have to say it's becoming very very tempting before I get stuck with the golden handcuffs at Big Airways.

Bex - I was a very happy bunny at J2! Give it serious thought and if you have any questions feel free to PM me.

[cessnapete]

Thanks that's exactly the answer I was looking for, cheers for your help.


I have relatives in both BA LH and VS.]
Definitely less hours flown in VS and friendly operation, pay OK. Time to Command far less in VS, vs BA LH
Only downside I have heard from them, is acute roster instability in VS vs rock steady rosters in BA which only change with requests or agreement.
A330/A340 fleet every rostered trip in Nov changed, usually at last minute to a JFK n/s or Lagos. 5 Atlantic crossings in 24 days. Probably caused by 787 engine troubles and extended unplanned A340 use until Summer 2020. (Apparently few Airbus pilots are A340 rated, so get stuck with JFK and Lagos)
Presumably rosters will improve with A350 introduction.

[Flying Wild]

LHS 320, exhausted and fed up. I consider leaving but keep on doing nothing. As the time passes it gets harder to leave. If you are going to jump then do it now. Don’t end up stuck through fear of leaving for something else.

Hopefully the “relationship reset” will help.........:rolleyes:

JSS is a disaster, easily working 15% more with exhausting trip constructions of 6 day blocks of early starts. All I ask for is a max 5 day block and in the last two months all my blocks are 6 days.

Jet2 DEC A321........



Bex, Come to Jet2 :)

Just under 600 hours LHS this year at one of the rapidly growing bases, thanks to decent leave bids. Back home every night and everyone is a pleasure to work with. It’s not perfect but striving to improve things for the pilot workforce.

[ShineOn]

How many days off at home each month for a long haul junior FO (say first 5 years) at VS versus BA?

[MikeAlpha320]

This is all if you can get a response from zenon!

[funkyt111]

Can somebody please explain the situation with the Manchester base and future expansion out of Manchester?
Also what’s the take home pay for year 1 on current pay scale?

Cheers folks.

[stable_checked]

LHS 320, exhausted and fed up. I consider leaving but keep on doing nothing. As the time passes it gets harder to leave. If you are going to jump then do it now. Don’t end up stuck through fear of leaving for something else.

Hopefully the “relationship reset” will help.........:rolleyes:

JSS is a disaster, easily working 15% more with exhausting trip constructions of 6 day blocks of early starts. All I ask for is a max 5 day block and in the last two months all my blocks are 6 days.

Jet2 DEC A321........

care to share you roster?

[DCT_ELSIR]

Can somebody please explain the situation with the Manchester base and future expansion out of Manchester?
Also what’s the take home pay for year 1 on current pay scale?

Cheers folks.


I'm also very interested in the answers to both of these questions. Thanks for any info.

[Riskybis]

I'm also very interested in the answers to both of these questions. Thanks for any info.

with the full 6% (15% return from company) on my year one salary i was taking home around £4200 , this doesn’t change that much as it is fixed flight pay , I don’t know anything about the Manchester plans

[bex88]

Stable checked..........Ibid will let you see all the rosters. Rolling total for the year is 820hr, up from around 700.

Just look for the roster full of 6 day blocks. All early with one report after 6am so it’s legal. The volume of work is no more than anyone else it is just how the work is awarded. You will hear people complain about a lack of weekends off, I actually find I get more weekends off under JSS than bid line. I don’t even ask for them. The variety of flying is better too. Why it can’t follow a simple max five days on and awards 6 days on every block for the last two months I cannot explain.

”biddable roster” is a recruitment point BA make. When you tell the system that it can award all work and it still pushes you into fall back you do not have a biddable roster.

[Busdriver01]

Is there any reason BA short haul couldn’t be rostered more like the locos? Ie max. 5 days on, followed by 3 or 4 days off? Other than, of course, the company wanting to get more work out of you..,

[midnight cruiser]

Loco style fixed rostering kind of works because there is no seniority, and everyone gets the same, more or less, and flights are crammed into the 5 on, in an optimised but fairly random fashion. Not sure how seniority would feed in - 5/5 for the top, and 5/2 for the bottom?!

I'm surprised BA hasn't completely split SH away from the seniority list, even away from BA all together, because it would be a hell of a lot easier to run it if it were like easy or Ryanair.

[pudoc]

For what it’s worth, as I didn’t understand it coming from a different airline where our allowances and pay was all paid together...VS yr 1 £4250 a month net but you wont use your net pay towards allowances like my previous airlines. Usually around $800 a month in allowances (assuming 3 trips a month on 787. Tax free.) which are loaded onto your virgin card for each trip as you depart. I usually, unintentionally, save about a quarter of that. No idea how BA works.

[VinRouge]

For what it’s worth, as I didn’t understand it coming from a different airline where our allowances and pay was all paid together...VS yr 1 £4250 a month net but you wont use your net pay towards allowances like my previous airlines. Usually around $800 a month in allowances (assuming 3 trips a month on 787. Tax free.) which are loaded onto your virgin card for each trip as you depart. I usually, unintentionally, save about a quarter of that. No idea how BA works.
Is it true that VS operate rotating seniority? How does that work?

What is is your average layover down route? Good social?

[funkyt111]

with the full 6% (15% return from company) on my year one salary i was taking home around £4200 , this doesn’t change that much as it is fixed flight pay , I don’t know anything about the Manchester plans


that’s great thanks.

But there is a Manchester base right? Do you know how long it takes to get a MAN base?


Cheers

[Riskybis]

that’s great thanks.

But there is a Manchester base right? Do you know how long it takes to get a MAN base?


Cheers

yes there is a Manchester base but it’s almost a seasonal kind of thing . BUT they are going to make it permanent supposedly (especially after the demise of TC I assume)
to be honest I’m not sure really how seniority works , I understand that you can be in either A,B or C group which makes it fair for bids etc... if you are brand new . Although VS bid system is pretty useless
Layover length is very much fleet dependent , on the airbus it’s usually bucket and spade routes (Caribbean , Lagos etc) and usually min rest . 787 does more of the business routes like LA, SFO , PVG and they are 2 nighters and the occasional 3 nighter . Lots of thing are changing with the 350 and further Trent 1000 engine problems .

[pudoc]

Is it true that VS operate rotating seniority? How does that work?

What is is your average layover down route? Good social?

As riskybis says. 2-3 nights downroute. Mainly long routes (far east, west coast, Brazil soon). You'll only see the east coast 2 or 3 times a year. Social is good. Never experienced it where we don't meet up with the crew for dinner. Sometimes that's all you'll get, sometimes there will be 10 of you cycling the Golden Gate. Most trips often have a whatsapp group to arrange plans. Anything less than 15 days off per month is what I'd call busy. 18 days off in the month isn't unusual. Can't speak for Airbus or 747 fleet.

Rotating seniority...when you join you'll be put into bid group A B or C. Rotates every month. Month 1 the bid priority will be ABC, month 2 BCA, month 3 CAB. Your position in the group is based on date of joining. A new guy will be bottom of their bid group, but for his/her bid they will have the 'acting seniority' as if they were in the top 1/3rd of pilots every 3 months and will only be at the bottom of all pilots once every 3 months too. The result is that guys with less than 6 months service can have Xmas off if their group was top for December bidding, but very senior guys may end up working Xmas if their group is bottom. A senior pilot who is top of the middle bid group may have had a chance of getting their bid whereas a new pilot at the bottom of the same group probably won't, so overall seniority still has a role. Applies for roster bids and leave (leave slightly different in how the groups rotate), normal seniority rules for commands etc. It's a fair system, everyone gets some form of life and I've never heard anyone complain about it.

[Pickled]

Remember with BA you are likely to bear the full force of JSS juniority several times over your career: joining, going long haul, even changing LH fleets, gaining a command etc. It is common for pilots to choose to remain in the right hand seat to maximise lifestyle. The rotating seniority system at Virgin considerably reduces the seniority gradient. It is wrong to suggest that “your turn will come” at BA, its all about (the luck of) timing, many will not become senior LH captains even after 30 years on the BA seniority list, in fact many will never ever be senior LH skippers.

[RexBanner]

Absolutely right Pickled. I joined BA at 35, the exact point that was my personal cutoff. Consequently to that I doubt I will ever break the top 1000 of the MSL, there’s just too many people senior to me and younger than me. It’s arguable to say that I might possibly achieve ten years of a Long Haul command (if I was lucky) but given that most of that time I would be amongst the most junior trash I’m leaning towards spending the entirety of my career in the RHS and at least benefitting from some seniority that way. If you want the full scope of a fulfilling career and enjoying seniority for a decent length of time in both seats in SH and LH then BA is a young man’s game, arguably over the age of about 28/29 it could already be too late.

[SissySkinner]

My biggest concern for Virgin over BA is probably the routes, the network doesn’t seem to be that big anymore. Can any airbus guys comment on this? With a long career still ahead of me I’m slightly worried I would get bored of doing the same 15 or so LH routes over and over again.

[bex88]

Now here is a radical idea BA. Seniority based on date of joining. Seniority as a captain based on when you passed your command course. Simples......:oh:

[Jumbo2]

Now here is a radical idea BA. Seniority based on date of joining. Seniority as a captain based on when you passed your command course. Simples......:oh:

And the benefit vs the current seniority system is?

[bex88]

It would encourage people to take commands as they become available. It would solve the short haul P1 issue and potentially free up a more natural progression. That or leave it as it is and make long haul commands all Not suitable for first command.

[3Greens]

It would encourage people to take commands as they become available. It would solve the short haul P1 issue and potentially free up a more natural progression. That or leave it as it is and make long haul commands all Not suitable for first command.
what you actually mean is it would benefit you, at this precise moment in time.

[3Greens]

What you actually mean, is that It would benefit you.

[Riskybis]

My biggest concern for Virgin over BA is probably the routes, the network doesn’t seem to be that big anymore. Can any airbus guys comment on this? With a long career still ahead of me I’m slightly worried I would get bored of doing the same 15 or so LH routes over and over again.

this is true , i had a look at my logbook yesterday and I have been to LA 21 time last year ! Basically twice a month (good job I prefer west coast) ! I don’t mind it though as 787 does the decent routes much like the BA 380 , although São Paulo will be interesting next
year ......

[GS-Alpha]

What is the short haul P1 issue, and why is it an issue?

[HardLanding1]

Also, is Breakfast included at the hotels with VS? I was shocked when I found out BA doesn't pay for breakfast and it's not like it pays any more in expenses

[Jumbo2]

What you actually mean, is that It would benefit you.

Exactly what I was thinking.

[bex88]

Actually for me it would make no difference what so ever. I am quite comfortable with my position, deal and circumstance. You only have to listen to FO’s who have no interest in a command because of pay and rostering. There needs to be an incentive to get people moving forwards within the airline. The SH command issue is well known and we see ok bids for pilots with less than the minimum required experience. On the other hand we have very capable experienced pilots sitting in the RHS who could offer a lot more to BA than they currently do. It’s not their fault but the system. I would keep a open mind to how this could be rectified but strict seniority does not work.

What would suit me? Not sure really but I must be happy enough otherwise there are other options outside of BA.

Jet2, EZY, Virgin etc.....they all seem to have benefits and draw backs.

[GS-Alpha]

Agree but the pay scale needs adjusting. We all know SH FOs declining LHS. I couldn’t believe my mate said no but when he said honestly 4 years in on SH and he gets a fair amount of weekends off. The poor pay increase plus associated lack of seniority isn’t worth it to him.
We all know 18 year FOs who are declining short haul commands by not bidding for them (I was one of them), and at that paypoint it is a decent payrise and they would be senior. (They are also taking a pay freeze until they do actually accept a command). It is not really about the money or the seniority. If you are a 4 year short haul FO declining a LHS, you are simply looking towards long haul in a year’s time, rather than freezing yourself on short haul for another 5 years. What is wrong with that? I have not heard of any short haul P1 supply issue, if that is what you are suggesting?

[GS-Alpha]

There is already building pressure on ex-NAPS FOs to take short haul commands, with the pension transition period ending in 2023. I expect short haul commands to start going pretty senior starting from 2021/22. People will be holding out for the hope of a long haul command just at the moment, but the more junior NAPS FOs will start jumping to short haul through fear that they will not have the seniority for it in the mad rush as 2023 approaches.

[3Greens]

Actually for me it would make no difference what so ever. I am quite comfortable with my position, deal and circumstance. You only have to listen to FO’s who have no interest in a command because of pay and rostering. There needs to be an incentive to get people moving forwards within the airline. The SH command issue is well known and we see ok bids for pilots with less than the minimum required experience. On the other hand we have very capable experienced pilots sitting in the RHS who could offer a lot more to BA than they currently do. It’s not their fault but the system. I would keep a open mind to how this could be rectified but strict seniority does not work.

What would suit me? Not sure really but I must be happy enough otherwise there are other options outside of BA.

Jet2, EZY, Virgin etc.....they all seem to have benefits and draw backs.
sure there’s one or two who say they’ll stay RHS and it’s their prerogative to do so. Nowhere does it say one MUST take a command.
You only have to glance at the bid packs for all fleets for jan and feb to see that your hypothesis is largely unfounded and at best wild speculation. There are many faults at BA, but choice of seats and commands (and when to take them) are the biggest plus, I don’t see any appetite to change it, apart from the “I want it now” brigade.

[Reversethrustset]

I took a DEC at Ezy instead of BA longhaul. The driving force for me was I'd probably never see a LH command and the SH command pay scale is abysmal. I'd have to be something like a year 15 BA pilot to earn what ezy pays from day 1 for effectively doing the same job, flying the same aircraft. It was a no brainer.

[bex88]

It just seems like there is a problem when pay and or lifestyle on SH is so unappealing that people choose to delay or avoid command. Granted there is merit in SH FO’s not bidding to go LH as they are enjoying the seniority. Perhaps more tweaks to JSS could help......or maybe not as everyone will be rostered under global constraints. For what it’s worth I benefited from the 2016 junior commands, the extra pay allows me to arrange my home life so that weekend working is less of a problem and when I am off so too is my wife.

Anyway.....BA to Virgin? I am not brave enough so I will just do what pilots do best and moan. ��

[The Blu Riband]

BA to Virgin? I am not brave enough so I will just do what pilots do best and moan. ��

You never stop moaning

[bex88]

Same **** different day.......maybe that’s why. :rolleyes:

I say it as I see it.

[GS-Alpha]

It just seems like there is a problem when pay and or lifestyle on SH is so unappealing that people choose to delay or avoid command. How do you the draw the conclusion that they are the reasons why people do not want the earliest possible short haul command? They are probably some people’s reasons, but there are a whole host of reasons why people make their choices. People have got 30 year plus careers, maybe they want to experience a bit of career variety? Why do you think something is wrong just because not everyone wants to make the same career choices as you? We are all different and we all have our own desires and aspirations. Why would you want to introduce any kind of additional stick to cajole people down one particular pathway? Surely the beauty of BA is that people are free to make these choices?

[The Blu Riband]

Same **** different day.......maybe that’s why. :rolleyes:

You chose:
to become a pilot
to join BA
to take an asap SH command

You could have changed fleets and be a LH FO and have some seniority like the many colleagues you assume don't want a SH job as its so terrible.
Whereas they may actually be on LH because they like it!

[GKOC41]

Same **** different day.......maybe that’s why. :rolleyes: I say it as I see it.

Just missed the highly paid to do

[GetTheQRH]

Do anyone know what the current Year 1 Basic Salary + Flight Pay is at Virgin these days, and if a B-Payscale for new entrants has been put in place yet?
PilotJobsNetwork is running a bit thin on details at the moment :)

[Busdriver01]

Has anybody actually heard from zenon ?

[one day soon]

You never stop moaning

HaHa from one of the most bigoted opinionated pilots at BA.
Your post history is littered with random rude and arrogant posts on many a subject.

I hope Bex gives your words the same disregard as those who meet you on the line do!

[3RDi]

Having been an observer and occasional contributor; the general theme has ALWAYS revolved around money, “weekend’s off”, lifestyle, toxic people, etc. You never achieved anything from your bickering, just stayed where you were (predominantly) and bash more. Those who called others moaners and toxic are THOSE people! Thought you folks just needed to be grateful. But making that comment would get one into considerable trouble.

Anyway, maybe now you’ll be glad you have/had a “flying” job and not ACTUALLY have to retrain or resume an old career as this is most likely for some of you HERE. No doubt you are more worried about your bills than your working conditions which probably weren’t so terrible after all, people. The question on most minds now is;
”why should (airline) keep me (over Joe/Jane Bloggs)? ‘They will keep me because I’m this, that and the other and been around for donkeys years.’”

Don’t get me wrong.... I only wish you all the best and continue your flying careers. But it is entertaining to read your comments on manufacturing that holy grail flying job - captain here, captain there, SH vs LH, etc. Never considered losing your job. BA is as good Virgin, EZY is as good as TUI, RYR is as good as JET2.. you’re flying a jet (I’m sure you miss that NOW no matter what you say). You rather be a pilot than that lorry driver which gets great pay.

OK, ready for you. Still have plenty of love for all aviators.

[bringbackthe80s]

Having been an observer and occasional contributor; the general theme has ALWAYS revolved around money, “weekend’s off”, lifestyle, toxic people, etc. You never achieved anything from your bickering, just stayed where you were (predominantly) and bash more. Those who called others moaners and toxic are THOSE people! Thought you folks just needed to be grateful. But making that comment would get one into considerable trouble.

Anyway, maybe now you’ll be glad you have/had a “flying” job and not ACTUALLY have to retrain or resume an old career as this is most likely for some of you HERE. No doubt you are more worried about your bills than your working conditions which probably weren’t so terrible after all, people. The question on most minds now is;
”why should (airline) keep me (over Joe/Jane Bloggs)? ‘They will keep me because I’m this, that and the other and been around for donkeys years.’”

Don’t get me wrong.... I only wish you all the best and continue your flying careers. But it is entertaining to read your comments on manufacturing that holy grail flying job - captain here, captain there, SH vs LH, etc. Never considered losing your job. BA is as good Virgin, EZY is as good as TUI, RYR is as good as JET2.. you’re flying a jet (I’m sure you miss that NOW no matter what you say). You rather be a pilot than that lorry driver which gets great pay.

OK, ready for you. Still have plenty of love for all aviators.

Nice, just a bit of frustration there uh?

No they are not all the same, at all. And even you as an outsider can see quite clearly how differently companies are treating they’re employees in this sad times we’re in.

If you ever tried flying 4 legs in all kinds of weather waking up at 4 a.m. for 4/5 days in a row, for 15/20 years, I can promise you you too would have something to say. Not that you’d ever experience it anyway.

If it all ends tomorrow at least we’ve done it.
I suspect more than a few will end up in not-so-desirable alternative careers but such is life.
It still doesn’t justify the ridiculous rostering and contractual practices we got to, nicely balanced by managers cashing millions of pounds every year from their comfortable offices conveniently hidden from any CBs WS lightning strikes and so on.

But then again no one really knows anything at this stage, well wait and see what happens. If people are to fly again though, I suspect my and many others’ services will be welcome in a couple of years.

[Bravo Zulu]

Having been an observer and occasional contributor; the general theme has ALWAYS revolved around money, “weekend’s off”, lifestyle, toxic people, etc. You never achieved anything from your bickering, just stayed where you were (predominantly) and bash more. Those who called others moaners and toxic are THOSE people! Thought you folks just needed to be grateful. But making that comment would get one into considerable trouble.

Anyway, maybe now you’ll be glad you have/had a “flying” job and not ACTUALLY have to retrain or resume an old career as this is most likely for some of you HERE. No doubt you are more worried about your bills than your working conditions which probably weren’t so terrible after all, people. The question on most minds now is;
”why should (airline) keep me (over Joe/Jane Bloggs)? ‘They will keep me because I’m this, that and the other and been around for donkeys years.’”

Don’t get me wrong.... I only wish you all the best and continue your flying careers. But it is entertaining to read your comments on manufacturing that holy grail flying job - captain here, captain there, SH vs LH, etc. Never considered losing your job. BA is as good Virgin, EZY is as good as TUI, RYR is as good as JET2.. you’re flying a jet (I’m sure you miss that NOW no matter what you say). You rather be a pilot than that lorry driver which gets great pay.

OK, ready for you. Still have plenty of love for all aviators.

Obviously a drunken rant by the time posted and bad English but I'll bite..

I think you will find Pilots are pretty adaptable people.. Plan A, B, C etc incase the brown stuff hits the fan. Oh and I already have the wheels in motion to apply for a HGV licence..

[A320baby]

Don’t forget your CPC Bravo Zulu! I’m currently doing that now! PM for details!

[3RDi]

Obviously a drunken rant by the time posted and bad English but I'll bite..

I think you will find Pilots are pretty adaptable people.. Plan A, B, C etc incase the brown stuff hits the fan. Oh and I already have the wheels in motion to apply for a HGV licence..

No, not drunk. What a waste of time that is. Good luck with HGV’s. Fingers crossed you remain in aviation though.

BringBackThe80s

Yeah, not frustrated. I am flying. Just pointed out the constant droning of “in-house” chatter amongst the major players. Yes, I am an outsider through choice. I did get through the waterside selection in the past.


You commented “not that I’d experience it anyway”. You have no idea. But anyway, I’m quite confident you’ll be back saying “AP1”! Or maybe “AP2” ha!

[Busdriver01]

3RDi, something you should probably take into account is the number of people who complain in posts on PPRuNe compared with the number of people who work as commercial pilots. You'll quickly appreciate that the overwhelming majority of pilots are not here complaining. They may well be moaning about this, that, or the other to their colleague during a long cruise, but most of us enjoy what we do, and realise the privileged position we are (or have, until recently, been) in.

[GetTheQRH]

Has anybody actually heard from zenon ?
All recruitment, unsurprisingly, indefinitely canceled. Straight from the horse's mouth over the phone after reaching the end of the process.

Told to maybe get back in touch towards the end of the year to see if the situation improves.

[ChickenRiceAndPeas]

Sorry to revive and old thread but couldn’t find info anywhere else and this seemed the most relevant.

Knowing that most airlines have taken Covid as an opportunity to attack pilot conditions, and that recruitment seems more and more likely to re-open. I’d like to get a better idea of what the conditions at virgin are like post-covid to make a fresh comparison as I’m guessing some of the 2019 info above is out of date.

Could anyone please shed some light of what’s changed and what the conditions are like now please?

Notably:

Pay, Pensions & Overtime
Scheduling
Culture/Atmosphere at work

Thanks in advance

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

What’s best? Integrated or modular?

[EGNT25]

ChickenRiceAndPeas - also interested - Virgin apparently will have 787 courses starting in October.
I'd like to know their pay scales and rosters (the basic will be £63500) can anyone advise how much flight pay is? How long do you get down route etc
I'm currently in a LCC, and really want to try long haul

If anyone can help please?

[skyflyer101]

Are those virgin 787 courses as part of a new recruitment campaign or are they courses for those made redundant as part of their return?

[A320baby]

Most of the returners are back so there will be external recruitment by end of the year

[sixgee]

Just don’t

[CABUS]

Give a week or two, then you are more likely to get a solid answer.

[ChickenRiceAndPeas]

Is anyone able to offer, either publically or via DM, an honest appraisal of the situation at VS and what new joiner terms and conditions look like post-covid.

Thanks.

if you can but only via DM, I’d really appreciate a similar overview of the situation. The fact virgin is no longer on ppjn makes a comparison even harder