79 year old FA fired by Delta

[b1lanc]

The age caught my interest as I've seen a good many 'senior' flight attendants on Delta recently - all professional and provided excellent service. The salary also was an eye opener. In conversation with one, he said he retired from his non-aviation job and just wanted to fly.

https://www.foxnews.com/travel/delta-flight-attendant-79-making-250000-fired-steal-milk-carton

[AviatorDave]

The age caught my interest as I've seen a good many 'senior' flight attendants on Delta recently - all professional and provided excellent service. The salary also was an eye opener. In conversation with one, he said he retired from his non-aviation job and just wanted to fly.

https://www.foxnews.com/travel/delta-flight-attendant-79-making-250000-fired-steal-milk-carton

There is not enough information to judge, but unless she developed an „I am entitled“ attitude and really did what her fellow cabin crew accused her of, the whole plot quite stinks. As she herself admits, her salary could pay at least four new flight attendants, so I doubt that Delta was deeply unhappy about finding some reason to get rid of her.
What a ****ty end to what appears to have been a good and loyal career.

[bafanguy]

The salary also was an eye opener.

All of that quoted figure wasn't likely direct income from flying and profit sharing. After age 70, she was obligated to take Required Minimum Distributions (RMDs) from her IRA or 401K and her Delta pension (even if she is still working). Also likely getting her Social Security income. And perhaps she has some other sources of income.

Many very senior F/As are drawing 4 checks. How the media was able to come up with that total income figure is puzzling since that's none of their business and has absolutely nothing to do with the story.

She made a mistake and has been punished for it.

[AviatorDave]

....She made a mistake and has been punished for it.

Did she? At least according to the linked article, there is no other proof than statements from envious peers who allegedly wanted her out, reporting to a company who would be happy to comply with the accusations for financial reasons.

Do you have more information?

[bafanguy]

Did she? At least according to the linked article, there is no other proof than statements from envious peers who allegedly wanted her out, reporting to a company who would be happy to comply with the accusations for financial reasons.

Do you have more information?

AviatorDave,

I should've said she apparently made a mistake as I have no further info on this event.

I do rather doubt the theory that senior F/As are target for elimination by the company or their fellow F/As. There are ~250 F/As with 50 years or more of service. If they're being targeted for elimination, someone has a lot of work to do. :(

[aterpster]

How the media was able to come up with that total income figure is puzzling since that's none of their business and has absolutely nothing to do with the story.

Alas, gritty stuff is their business these days.

[abgd]

I always love to hear about elderly people who are still enjoying going to work. Given that flight attendants have quite physical jobs, particularly in case of an accident, makes it all the more impressive that she was still working for them at 79. What a shame.

[FlexibleResponse]

Ida Gomez Llanos, 57 years of dedication and service to aviation.

What an amazing lady! I salute you!

Chief Purser/Cabin Crew Director Ida, all the very best wishes for your retirement!

[Spooky 2]

Ida should have known after 50 years that Delta and just about all US airlines have a ZERO tolerance policy when it comes to theft, There a lot more on other sites regarding this lady's work habits. Her assertion that DL wanted her to go because of her high earnings is absurd on the face of it.

[flown-it]

According to my accountant, as long as you are working you are not required to take the RMD. I hope she is right as I'm 75 and still working!!

[b1lanc]

I do rather doubt the theory that senior F/As are target for elimination by the company or their fellow F/As. There are ~250 F/As with 50 years or more of service. If they're being targeted for elimination, someone has a lot of work to do. :(
Not saying that this was Delta's plan, but unfortunately, age related dismissals have been common practice in many companies. Sad to think that it might still continue.

[Spooky 2]

Not saying that this was Delta's plan, but unfortunately, age related dismissals have been common practice in many companies. Sad to think that it might still continue.

What don't you understand? Theft is a crime against the employer. Steal and you will be heald accountable. I'm sure that Delta can cite any number of younger people that were terminated for theft.

There was a time, long log ago when stealing liquor minitures or headset money was a pretty common practice and most co worker looked the other way, but times have changed and all employees are well aware of it. No excuses anymore. Being senior does not give you a free pass.

[Airbubba]

Don't worry, the union will get her job back. ;)

Oh, wait... :uhoh:

[Airbubba]

Here's the lawsuit filed in California Superior Court in Los Angeles.

[Airbubba]

There was a time, long log ago when stealing liquor minitures or headset money was a pretty common practice and most co worker looked the other way, but times have changed and all employees are well aware of it. No excuses anymore. Being senior does not give you a free pass.

I agree. And getting fired for stealing stuff off the plane is not a new concept. Nor is claiming company harassment and whistleblower victimization.

From three decades ago another case with very similar issues:

Only a Minor Theft but Airline and Attendant Agree It’s Now a Major CaseBy BEVERLY BEYETTEApril 10, 1988 12 AM[Los Angeles] Times Staff WriterAfter more than 24 years as a Trans World Airlines flight attendant, Elizabeth Rich was fired. The charge: theft of company property. The goods: four leftover half-pint cartons of milk and a TWA toilet kit issued to a New York-to-Paris passenger who left it behind in a seat pocket.

Rich is not disputing that she took the items--"TWA’s garbage,” she calls them--nor does she condone theft. But, in this case, she believes she was targeted as a scapegoat because of her activism during a 1986 flight attendants’ strike and her criticism of cost-cutting tactics by board chairman Carl Icahn, the multimillionaire corporate raider who took over TWA early in 1986.

Rich, 53, contends that she and other senior flight attendants who have been recalled to duty since the strike ended have been “harassed” and “spied on” by management personnel intent on replacing them. TWA insists it is an open-and-shut case of petty theft.

Whatever the interpretation, Rich’s case has mushroomed from a small-scale case of employee theft into a national cause celebre, complete with a sympathetic segment on CBS’ “60 Minutes” show. In the process, her story has taken on the trappings of a union crusade, in which the New York-based Independent Federation of Flight Attendants accuses TWA management of the “McDonald-izing” of flight attendants, with fast turnover as the goal. It has also become the tale of a bitter personal feud between Rich and her accuser, a co-worker, and of lingering union resentment against the airline and its flamboyant new owner.

Rich believes she is fighting not only for herself but for her fellow strikers, most of whom, she says, “don’t want to fight because they can’t afford to lose their jobs again.” Of the 3,800 who have not been called back, she says, “The majority have not committed themselves to another career. They want to go back to flying.”

Mark Buckstein, TWA senior vice president and general counsel, categorically denies any harassment of former strikers. In fact, he says the company has done a careful statistical study and has “found a dramatically larger portion of the new hires have been either disciplined, suspended or terminated than the strikers. There’s absolutely no truth to the suggestion that we are out to get anybody like Liz Rich. It is totally false.”

The Liz Rich issue, says Victoria Frankovich, president of the flight attendants union, is “just part of a bigger problem” which she identifies as “pressure for the corporations to find a way to rid themselves of the more senior and more costly work force.”We've got some ideas for you, and they're far better than a neck pillow. Frankovich is not excusing Rich’s actions. “Liz did not use good judgment in taking milk off the airliner,” she says. “No employee should walk off with an employer possession, whether it’s garbage or not.” But, she adds, in view of her “perfect work record,” Rich received disproportionately “harsh treatment"--yes, she was a scapegoat.

“I have to tell you honestly,” Icahn responds, “until the last few weeks I never heard of Liz Rich, let alone targeted her.”

“That’s also true for me,” says TWA President D. Joseph Corr, who adds, “we try to go out of our way to make the people coming back welcome.”

Rich’s troubles began Oct. 6 when TWA Flight 800 touched down at Charles de Gaulle Airport outside Paris about 6:30 a.m., after a six-hour flight from New York. “Every flight is understaffed,” Rich says, this one no exception. A “floater,” she was working several cabins of the L1011.

TWA flight attendants, including Rich, had struck the airline in March, 1986, in response to what the union saw as Icahn’s effort to recoup $320 million to help cover takeover costs by imposing cuts on employees. The cuts included a 40% wage and benefits cut for 5,200 flight attendants, 85% of whom were women, one-third of them 40 or older, with an average 15 years’ service with TWA and an average salary of $30,000-$35,000, Frankovich says. New hires are being brought in at $12,000, she adds.

The strike lasted 72 days, the union capitulating rather than see wholesale replacement of the work force. Two years later, 3,800 members of the pre-strike work force are still not back on the job while 2,100 flight attendants hired during the strike to replace the strikers are on active status.

By law, the company must cease hiring from the outside and start rehiring, by seniority, from a preferential list that includes all of the former strikers, until that list is depleted. To date, a total of 1,400 flight attendants have been rehired, according to a union spokeswoman. Rich had been called back to full-time employment in April, 1987, after almost 14 months off the job.

Her flight to Paris in October arrived almost an hour early and, between food service and selling of boutique items, she says, there had been no time for her to eat the crew meal provided. At flight’s end, cleaning a shelf in the galley, Rich spotted the surplus milk. “I was about to sweep it off the shelf into a garbage bag,” she recalls, when another attendant, a new hire, said, “Don’t. I hate French milk. I want that.” What a good idea, Rich thought, placing four containers of milk in each of two trash-and-stash bags. During the flight she had snagged a fingernail and, before leaving the aircraft, she threw into her bag the unclaimed amenities kit containing an emery board.

As they deplaned, Rich spotted TWA superintendent Kenneth Peterson at the gate. The word spread quickly among the crew--"Crew kit search. If you have anything, get rid of it.” Rich knew the company had been concerned about duty-free items such as Cartier watches disappearing but, she recalls, “I wasn’t the least bit concerned.”

In moments, though, she says she realized that “I had been set up, and I became enraged.” Seizing the garbage bag and its contents, Peterson told her he was removing her from flight status and ordered her to report for a hearing the next day in his office in Manhattan.

“And so he took possession of my garbage,” Rich says. “I could hardly keep a straight face.”

Meanwhile, Rich says, other crew members were jettisoning items they’d taken from the aircraft--"Somebody had a Coke, somebody had a juice. When you’ve had 40% cut out of your pay, people take juice.”

Rich does not dispute TWA’s legal right to fire her for taking the milk, acknowledging a regulation stating that anyone taking anything, including disposables, is subject to instant dismissal. Until this incident, she contends, she would have interpreted that to mean “paper napkins and Styrofoam cups.” She says, “Milk is not reusable. Milk is garbage.”

(There would have been no problem, Peterson testified at a New York State Labor Department hearing, had she drunk the milk during the flight, as attendants may have an unlimited quantity so long as passengers are not deprived.)

As for that toilet kit, Rich contends that cleaning crews routinely take those left behind, used and unused. Further, she has stated in testimony, “Anything that has been given to a passenger already is no longer company property.” If TWA wanted to make an example of someone, she believes, she was perfect, with a record of union activism that “would not endear me to them.” She had led a lie-in at TWA’s Manhattan ticket office during the strike. Earlier, she had fought battles for now-defunct Stewardesses for Women’s Rights.

So now, her wings clipped, she was being returned to New York in disgrace--but also in style. First class on TWA. She notes with a smile, “They gave me two (amenities) kits.”

The contraband cartons of milk were on Peterson’s desk when Rich reported for her hearing. She had rehearsed a little speech, she says, about how TWA had paid her for 24 years to make people happy and how she had wanted to leave “while I have good memories of my job.” And she requested retirement.

The good memories are many, she is quick to say. In fact, she wrote a book, “Flying High,” published in 1970, that for the most part extolled the joys of being a flight attendant.

But her retirement plans hit a snag when the TWA legal department sent to the union a demand that, as a condition of retiring with full benefits, she abandon her claim to $30,000 in back pay--the money she would have received had she been reinstated at the end of the strike rather than waiting an additional 14 months to be rehired. Rich refused and withdrew her application. “I’m not going to pay $30,000 for a quart of milk,” she says.

(On March 21 the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that about 450 TWA flight attendants, Rich included, who contended they were illegally deprived of their jobs are entitled to reinstatement with back pay and Rich believes she, too, will get that money, despite being subsequently fired for theft. In the meantime, Rich is getting unemployment insurance as a result of a New York State Labor Department ruling that she was guilty of “at most an error of judgment” and not of gross misconduct in taking the items. TWA is appealing that decision.)

After withdrawing her retirement application, Rich said, “The only thing I was interested in now was clearing my name, getting my back pay and going back on the line” with high visibility.

She vowed, “I’m not going to stay quiet about this.”

She hasn’t. In an interview, she accused TWA of having a “Gestapo goon squad” maliciously dogging the footsteps of recalled flight attendants. All TWA attendants have been working without a contract since March, 1986, and recalled workers, she says, are being routinely suspended for offenses such as “not smiling enough” or refusing to talk to non-union hires, referred to by Rich as “scabettes.” She calls it “a poisonous atmosphere.”

“That absolutely is not true,” says Corr of the charges of harassment. As best he knows, he says, a policy of discrimination toward senior attendants “has never even been a subject of management discussion” and TWA makes recalled attendants “as welcome as possible.”

TWA officials acknowledge, however, that Rich was not netted in some random search operation but, rather, that they were alerted to an alleged pattern of theft by a tipster.

That tipster, they acknowledge, was Henriette (Penny) Parker, a veteran TWA flight attendant. Rich is locked with Parker and her husband, a retired TWA pilot, in a civil suit and countersuit over who has the right to purchase a co-op apartment in Manhattan, which Rich occupies.

Accusing Penny Parker of “pure viciousness” in charging her with thievery to TWA, Rich last month filed a $7-million defamation of character suit against both Parkers, which the Parkers are contesting.

Rich has also responded with public allegations about Ms. Parker, producing among other evidence a disciplinary letter from TWA’s files dated Dec. 10, 1966, which expressed TWA’s concern about “repeated instances” of Parker issuing bad checks. The Parkers have in turn filed a $20-million countercomplaint against Rich, which Rich is contesting.

What infuriates Rich most is that TWA, she says, is underwriting the Parkers’ countersuit.

A highly placed TWA source explained that when the airline asked Ms. Parker for permission to use her allegations concerning Rich’s alleged thievery in preparing for the “60 Minutes” segment, it agreed to Parker’s attorneys’ demand that TWA indemnify her for any legal action relating to the incident. However, the source said TWA and its lawyers had no intention of becoming “pawns” in the Rich-Parker dispute.

Buckstein puts it this way, “If these two ladies want to engage in a battle . . . I don’t want to be in the middle.”

Jack Parker, asked in his wife’s absence to comment on her role as informant, said, “I don’t see what possible good this can do either my wife or myself. What’s in it for us? Trouble.

“There’s a libel suit going on . . . . You won’t get a quote from us.”

But papers filed as part of the Parker’s countercomplaint state that “in early September, 1987, defendant Henriette Parker met with Donald Fleming, TWA’s manager of In-Flight Services for the Eastern Region, at which time she told Mr. Fleming that she believed that the plaintiff (Rich) had been stealing TWA property for years.” During that conversation, the papers state, Henriette Parker also told Fleming that on a visit to Rich’s apartment in April of 1986 she saw a dozen or so toilet kits stashed in a closet and believed Rich was giving them as gifts to employees of the apartment building.

Rich dismisses the above as ludicrous, noting that she has “hundreds” of these kits, issued to her on 1,000 or more flights as a “deadhead” (off-duty attendant) or pass passenger, and has no reason to steal any.

Rich says Icahn telephoned her sometime after the “60 Minutes” broadcast: She says she told him, “You have to get out of my private life or I’m going to go to your stockholders and tell them you were involved in my personal lawsuit.”

“I never would have been in this libel litigation,” she reasons, “if it hadn’t been for this apartment litigation, which has motivated the Parkers from the very beginning. It’s one and the same thing. Both suits will be combined. Therefore, TWA will be financing the Parkers’ apartment litigation. It’s inappropriate.”

If TWA will agree to extricate itself, she says, “I’ll be happy to settle. I can’t back out while they’re financing a $20-million libel suit against me.” Alternatively, she suggests, TWA could also pay her legal fees in her dispute with the Parkers and “the loser will pay back TWA for whatever they invested in this little Ping-Pong game.”

As for the great milk caper, Rich says the real question is not whether the milk was stolen or simply salvaged but “why I didn’t have time to eat.”

According to the union’s Frankovich, TWA flight attendants are now required to work an average of 80 to 85 in-air hours a month, up from the pre-strike average of 75. Like Rich, she says, they frequently have no time to sit down for a meal in flight. “When (since deregulation) you’re selling a ticket for $200,” she says, you have people jam-packed in cabins,” and TWA now assigns only one flight attendant for every 50 seats.

However, according to Buckstein, “Working conditions have not changed dramatically (since the strike) and we certainly will always make sure that conditions will not affect the health and well-being of our flight attendants or our passengers.” Concerning the additional five to 10 in-air hours a month alleged by Frankovich, he said, “I gotta tell you frankly, I don’t know how that jeopardizes anybody’s health or safety.”

“All we hear from the new hires,” Icahn responds, “is they want to keep their jobs. If conditions are so bad, how come almost 100% of the recalls come back and only a small number have left? The ones I’m talking to tell me everything is fine.”

Borden stated on “60 Minutes” that Rich was fired for no other reason than the theft of the milk and the kit, and that a company with 30,000 employees must “view any theft as important.”

However, Frankovich cites other “wrist slap” offenses for which she says senior attendants have been dismissed since Icahn took over, such as sending a “Boycott TWA” postcard to a friend (the union has an ongoing boycott campaign). (That attendant was reinstated with back pay as the result of arbitration, according to a union spokeswoman.) One senior woman was fired, Frankovich says, when accused of telling a passenger she “hopes Icahn burns in hell” (a charge the attendant has denied); that case is pending arbitration.

Buckstein told CBS’s Harry Reasoner that there is “nothing that I’m aware of” other than the theft that would have caused TWA to dismiss Rich after 24 years’ service.

Later, he told The Times, “We probably have spent more time on this topic than we’d like to.” Charging “distortions” in the television segment, he said, “The impression created was that Ms. Rich is going to lose her pension benefits. That absolutely is not true.”

“What I care about,” Rich says, is “denying me what I’ve worked 25 years for over a quart of milk.” That includes her unlimited lifetime TWA pass and company-paid life insurance and medical benefits, which she says she will lose if her firing is upheld, and back pay from Oct. 7--when she was taken off the payroll--until a settlement is reached. She also wants $118,000 as a lump sum rather than in monthly stipends after normal retirement age.

Asked what TWA is prepared to do to reach a settlement with Rich, Buckstein said, “I don’t want to negotiate a settlement with you. I don’t believe in airing grievances or issues in the press.”

But, he emphasized, Rich was “absolutely not” singled out as a symbol of the people TWA would like to get rid of.

There is “a fair amount of precedent” both within the company and throughout the industry, Buckstein says, for the firing of Rich.

If she will settle, he says, “We will allow her to take her pension benefits in a lump sum” and “will not insist on her waiving her right” to her back-pay claim. He emphasized that the company made this offer prior to public airing of the case on “60 Minutes.”

Icahn says, “Everyone in the airline knows they can always call me. It’s very strange she didn’t call me when she felt she had been unfairly treated . . . at that time, general counsel or I would certainly have given her the back pay claim if she had just called us. I would certainly have given her both things she wants.”

And now? “Why should it be different?” Icahn asks. “I believe this would definitely be our policy.”

Rich says, “All I can say is, I wish I’d called him, too. I didn’t call him because he is responsible for his management policies and management has been treating me with unrelenting maliciousness. I thought they were carrying out his mandate.”

A TWA source suggests, “It appears at this point she or her lawyers feel they can make a big fee out of this.”

What does Rich want from TWA now? Nothing less than “complete exoneration,” she says, an admission from management that a mistake was made. And, she says, “I want my job back.”

Rich also hopes her high profile will give a boost to the union’s current industrywide effort to get certification by the FAA, much as pilots are licensed. Certification, she says, would guarantee uniform training standards, legal limitations on hours and safeguarded rights such as “a meal period, break periods, a place to sit” in flight--"We want this job to be a career.”

She adds, “There’s a connection between morale and safety. Every airline that’s treating its front-line workers as if they’re disposable pieces of machinery is playing with real fire.”

Rich intends to keep making noise. “I’m not a mouse,” she says, “and I hate being bullied.” If TWA won’t settle on her terms, she says, “I will wait until arbitration” and “I’m going to win that arbitration. I’ll get my job back, too.”

But would Icahn give her back her job? “Under no circumstances would she get the job back,” he says, adding that it is TWA policy that “stealing, no matter what it is, cannot be condoned. . . .”

Adds Corr, “We can’t have two sets of standards, one for those who complain, one for those who don’t.”

[Spooky 2]

But would Icahn give her back her job? “Under no circumstances would she get the job back,” he says, adding that it is TWA policy that “stealing, no matter what it is, cannot be condoned. . . .”


That pretty much sums it up. Should be the end of this story.

[CargoOne]

Over unionised majors are doomed. There is no justification to pay flight attendant $250k irrespectively of length of service. It is not happening in any other industry and it shall not be happening in airlines.
Usually the old flight attendants have the worst attitude towards customers who tend to forgive them because of the age, and then you have a similarly aged group of customers who writing the commendations for them in a sprit “she is one of us”. Get real.

[Airbubba]

Over unionised majors are doomed. There is no justification to pay flight attendant $250k irrespectively of length of service. It is not happening in any other industry and it shall not be happening in airlines.

I assume you are aware that Delta's flight attendants are non-union? ;)

[OldnGrounded]

Quite a few posts here by posters who seem confident that the FA is guilty of theft. Her complaint makes it clear that she disputes the accusation and claims that she was set up by hostile and envious co-workers and terminated by management eager to rid the company of an expensive senior employee. Unless someone is aware of evidence other than that so far presented here, It's a bit difficult to understand why anyone would conclude either that she is guilty and her firing was justified, or that her contrary claim is the truth.

We don't know and can't know. And I hope some of you are slower to leap to conclusions if you're called for jury duty.

[bafanguy]

According to my accountant, as long as you are working you are not required to take the RMD. I hope she is right as I'm 75 and still working!!

She is likely right. I'm not sure what requirements govern DL F/As and their 401K but do know that many aged 70+ do take the RMD. I mentioned RMDs as part of explaining that DL doesn't pay F/As $250K/year for flying:

What are Required Minimum Distributions?

Required Minimum Distributions (RMDs) generally are minimum amounts that a retirement plan account owner must withdraw annually starting with the year that he or she reaches 70 ½ years of age or, if later, the year in which he or she retires.

https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/retirement-plans-faqs-regarding-required-minimum-distributions#1

Terms of the plan govern

The plan’s terms may allow you to wait until the year you actually retire to take your first RMD (unless you are a 5% owner). Alternatively, a plan may require you to begin receiving distributions by April 1 of the year after you reach age 70½, even if you have not retired.

https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/plan-participant-employee/retirement-topics-required-minimum-distributions-rmds

[bafanguy]

We don't know and can't know. And I hope some of you are slower to leap to conclusions if you're called for jury duty.

OnG,

Correct. I wasn't rendering a verdict (or didn't mean to) and was rightly corrected by AviatorDave. I did want to explain her alleged income by supplying a few facts with which I'm quite familiar.

[CargoOne]

I assume you are aware that Delta's flight attendants are non-union? ;)

I though they are getting unionised as we speak? But without union there is even less justification to pay those kind of salaries to super senior CC

[bafanguy]

I though they are getting unionised as we speak?

There is apparently another attempt at getting the F/As unionized...results unknown at this point. Previous attempts have failed. And they DO NOT pay F/As of any seniority $250K/year.

I wish they did...somebody has to support me !! ;)

[OldnGrounded]

OnG,

Correct. I wasn't rendering a verdict (or didn't mean to) and was rightly corrected by AviatorDave. I did want to explain her alleged income by supplying a few facts with which I'm quite familiar.

Got it. I didn't think you were guilty of finding her guilty without trial.

[OldnGrounded]

There is apparently another attempt at getting the F/As unionized...results unknown at this point. Previous attempts have failed. And they DO NOT pay F/As of any seniority $250K/year.

I wish they did...somebody has to support me !! ;)
From last month:The head of the largest flight-attendant union in the US explains why Delta's cabin crews might finally vote to unionize (https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-flight-attendants-union-campaign-organize-afa-2019-11)

[bafanguy]

From last month:The head of the largest flight-attendant union in the US explains why Delta's cabin crews might finally vote to unionize (https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-flight-attendants-union-campaign-organize-afa-2019-11)

Sara Nelson may have a valid case for success this time based on a change of F/A demographics. We'll see...

[Spooky 2]

This may have happend in the past but unionization of the Delta in-flight staff has been attempted several times prior without success. This particular termination event will not do anything to effect he outcome of this vote, either way IMO.

There is something about human nature that compels staff to remove things from an aircraft. Half empty wine bottles, miniatures, food etc. have been subject to pilfering in years past, but now that is strictly prohibited. Those that choose to do otherwise often face termination. This is not complicated, so if you choose otherwise you probably won't like the outcome. Age is not a factor other than the fact you probably had gotten away with it for many years before being caught. As for 250K per year, not only unlikely, but impossible even with Delta's profit sharing program. More lawyer BSing.The good news is that she will likely get a full lump sum payout on here retirement after being terminated.

FWIW, I think Deta had a male flight attendant retire in the last couple of years who was age 91. Like this current woman, he was a former NWA employee, After all those years you would think they could write a damn good book desiring their experiences.

[Water pilot]

So I am sort of curious what happens to those half empty wine bottles and half consumed cartons of milk normally...

"No thanks, I brought my own lunch..."

[lomapaseo]

So I am sort of curious what happens to those half empty wine bottles and half consumed cartons of milk normally...

"No thanks, I brought my own lunch..."

Rules are rules, they should not be an individuals choice to abandon them unless they are willing to accept the consequences. Even dumpster diving comes under a rule somewhere

[Spooky 2]

So I am sort of curious what happens to those half empty wine bottles and half consumed cartons of milk normally...

"No thanks, I brought my own lunch..."


They throw it away once opened. I use to work a a corporate flying job and for awhile, they collected all the left over catering and gave it to a homeless shelter. This was right there in your home state.

[BEA 71]

If you tell this story a - non airline - European, he/she would shake his/her head in disbelief. I know, Americans have a completely different view on this subject. Lets face it - the old lady takes jobs away from younger people, who might never have the opportunity to reach a senior position. Or work on a financially attractive tour, because a senior has claimed it for herself. I think there is a lot of greed and selfishness in the game. If she loves flying so much, why didn´t she retire at, lets say, 65, and take advantage of her travel privileges, of which there will be many. I have always loved my job, but knew when to finish. I am 75 now and retired relatively early. Exept for my airside pass, I
lost nothing. The old lady has gone a step too far, may be lost her sense for reality.

[Landflap]

Gosh, this case stinks. Of course she was targeted but was easy prey once on the radar. Read somewhere on previous posts that it was the Company's stated policy that the removal of "anything" was prohibited. "Anything" is the gotcha in an easy observation. If the company was motivated to cut out petty theft , a simple reminder to all staff that, for example , "It has been noted"...........you know how it goes.........and that a full crack-down on even the most petty of all cases involving the removal of company property would be severely dealt with , should have been the amber card that all employees would have noted. Just stop it.

Blimey, in my career, I have been guilty by these standards of serial theft , even cereal theft when I whipped off the cornflakes mini packet for later consumption ! In the glory days, in the crew bus going off to some exotic hotel, the cry would be "Who's got the brown-cow ? ". A marvelous mix made up from stolen minitures and milk, consumed, in uniform and downed in stolen plastic cups. But that was, here we go again, in the glory days.

Again, by these trumped up charges standards, I am aware of very serious theft of company property and down route hotel property .We all are and we all did it . It would have been very easy to be dobbed in it or dob someone else in it if a set-up was involved or someone just decided, for other reasons, to adopt an eagle eye.

Just in case some of you rotters are still trying to get me, I have just hidden away my prized theft items, top of which was a fabbo toweled after-shower bath robe, heavily inscribed in beautiful gold (I think real) stitching with the Hotel's Logo and name .

This loyal employees case stinks to high heaven and will reveal much more than a couple of cartons of milk . Guilty, yes. "Gotcha", but the sentence (?) appalling.

[Fonsini]

You never know the full story in these cases but it certainly sounds like she was mightily unpopular with the other FAs since so many reported her for doing everything from theft, to drinking on duty, to being physically unable to arm and disarm doors (I suspect they really mean secure the door following boarding - since that is the “physical” part).

I know this isn’t a popular position to take, but flight crew need to be physically fit to a minimally acceptable degree for safety reasons, and I have seen several 70 plus FAs who clearly had difficulty pushing the drinks cart down the aisle. We need to be sensible about this.

[BEA 71]

Good points, Fonsini. If I, although in reasonable health, would try to get a simple travel insurance, it would be denied for age reasons ( 75 ). The risk is too high, they say. Luckily I have a travel insurance through my premium automobile club membership, which can not be taken away. Ironically I do not even have a car any more,
I only keep my membership for the insurance. Not cheap, but could be of value in case something happens abroad. In addition I have my regular lab tests made before a trip, this only in case they started arguing, and try to deny payment. There is more small print, than a person can read. I can imagine, the premium, pilots have to pay when over a certain age, rises enormously. This must apply to FAs too, they are no higher beings...

[Water pilot]

If you tell this story a - non airline - European, he/she would shake his/her head in disbelief. I know, Americans have a completely different view on this subject. Lets face it - the old lady takes jobs away from younger people, who might never have the opportunity to reach a senior position. Or work on a financially attractive tour, because a senior has claimed it for herself. I think there is a lot of greed and selfishness in the game. If she loves flying so much, why didn´t she retire at, lets say, 65, and take advantage of her travel privileges, of which there will be many. I have always loved my job, but knew when to finish. I am 75 now and retired relatively early. Exept for my airside pass, I
lost nothing. The old lady has gone a step too far, may be lost her sense for reality.

Probably most people in the US over 65 would love the option of retiring. Unless you have a pension or stock, retiring in Europe is a rather more pleasant occupation than retiring in the United States. It is not a matter of selfishness, it is a matter of being able to eat and afford healthcare (Medicare is not all that it is cracked up to be.) It is rather shocking to see very old people working as "greeters" at our big box stores, sometimes in their wheelchairs or scooters. (It is thought to deter shoplifting.) If they are more mobile, they are stacking boxes. Really, it is a charming country.

[BEA 71]

To Water Pilot
Having been to the U.S. many, many times, I am certainly aware of the problems, and I fully agree to what you say. But here we are talking about a 79 year old woman, who obviously has a reasonable income. It is not all gloomy over here - it was years ago - my present income is roughly $ 230.000 less than what the lady has. There used to be a time when pension and medical care were the last things you needed to worry about. Thank God we negotiated a good pension scheme with our employer,
without the company pension I would have to line in with the poor souls you mention.

[Retired DC9 driver]

Landflap wrote,
Just in case some of you rotters are still trying to get me, I have just hidden away my prized theft items, top of which was a fabbo toweled after-shower bath robe, heavily inscribed in beautiful gold (I think real) stitching with the Hotel's Logo and name .

Helmsley Palace in New York? I had layovers there...

[FrequentSLF]

Flight attendants are on board mainly to guarantee the safety of passengers, and as a pax I wonder how efficient a 79 yo would be in guaranteeing and helping in my safety in case of an emergency.

[Airbubba]

Just in case some of you rotters are still trying to get me, I have just hidden away my prized theft items, top of which was a fabbo toweled after-shower bath robe, heavily inscribed in beautiful gold (I think real) stitching with the Hotel's Logo and name .

Helmsly Palace in New York? I had layovers there...

Maybe that was the place Yogi Berra was talking about when he said :) :

The towels were so thick there I could hardly close my suitcase.

[Lord Farringdon]

There is something not being told in this story of an almost octogenarian flight attendant on 250K /annum, the holder of company awards and letters of endorsement from customers, embroiled in a battle with her employer over minor theft and drinking. For the sake of click bait, the real truth is not being told, so I'm putting any judgments on hold until the truth emerges. But to those who wish her removed from flight duties because she is 'too old' be aware that another poster above has offered the revelation of Flight Attendant who was 91 years old!! Interestingly, back in the day when I flew TWA on a few positioning flights, I don't remember seeing any cabin crew who could be considered anything but old, especially the Chief Purser. I have no idea of their ages but some of the senior ones I guess were in their 70's and the juniors in economy in their 40's through 60's. This was compared to my national airline where the cabin crew throughout the aircraft were positively youthful by comparison.

Now I am all for older people working because God knows that there is no other way to survive if life hasn't been kind to you. I am reasonably confident that she could pass all the physical and mental requirements of the job and conduct her flight duties in the expected manner otherwise she wouldn't still be there, wouldn't be getting company awards and wouldn't be getting good job letters from her customers. Interestingly, Health and Safety has said you cant lift any more than X and are not allowed to lift passengers bag's into the bins in some airlines. I have no idea what Delta's policies are but it is quite likely that H&S avoids heavy lifting being part of her job description. So the only real risk for carrying a 79 year old is that she has a medical event en route that requires a diversion or that she dies on duty. Compared to those Captains who have medical events or collapsed dead on approach, the risk to the carrier and to safety on board seems incredibly less. I see no reason why she would be unable to administer O2, wield a fire extinguisher, guide passengers to evacuation exits or deploy life-rafts (passengers may be generally be asked to assist with this anyway since they are not one man or women deployable). Pushing a full drinks trolley up front on climb out may be testing but I suspect her senior position prevents her from having to play that game too often. The same applies to opening cabin doors which can be heavy and awkward to maneuver and especially when armed for an emergency evacuation. However, years of opening these doors means she has the technique down pat and clearly she passed the emergency drills on her annual training. ( The first time I opened a B727 door as a young man, it nearly threw me out of the aircraft with it! I was instructed how to get your stance right and understand the action, then you can get the door inertia to to all the hard work...while remaining in the aircraft). So, all I can say is that some people don't like seeing old people serve them a snack, would prefer a 'trolley dolly' and are just generally ageist. Can't do much about that I guess. If Delta doesn't want old employees, then the airline could certainly treat it's long serving employees better by offering severance packages to older staff that incentivise them to leave the workforce while offering the employee some forward security and adjustment time.

In any case, it seems some Delta Flight attendants do have a drinking problem. Looks like this one gets off lightly while the 79 year old gets hammered ..so to speak.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/118043061/usbased-flight-attendant-7-times-over-drink-limit

[bafanguy]

If Delta doesn't want old employees, then the airline could certainly treat it's long serving employees better by offering severance packages to older staff that incentivise them to leave the workforce while offering the employee some forward security and adjustment time.

In any case, it seems some Delta Flight attendants do have a drinking problem.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/118043061/usbased-flight-attendant-7-times-over-drink-limit

LF,

DL has offered "early-out" deals in the past but they were laugh-out-loud funny. The only people who could possibly be interested were people planning on going anyway and might adjust their departure date to get a little beer money on their way out. All it amounted to was beer money.

There weren't many takers over all. DL needs to get serious and sweeten the pot considerably if clearing the top of the F/A seniority list is their goal.

As for that other issue, there are 22000 to 23000 F/As at DL. It's not surprising that an occasional but very rare episode happens. Unacceptable but hardly common.

[Lord Farringdon]

LF,

DL has offered "early-out" deals in the past but they were laugh-out-loud funny. The only people who could possibly be interested were people planning on going anyway and might adjust their departure date to get a little beer money on their way out.

There weren't many takers over all.

As for that other issue, there are 22000 to 23000 F/As at DL. It's not surprising that an occasional but very rare episode happens. Unacceptable but hardly common.


Thanks for that bafanguy. I guess the incentive to the employee just wasn't there to make that scheme work.

[OldnGrounded]

There is something not being told in this story of an almost octogenarian flight attendant on 250K /annum, the holder of company awards and letters of endorsement from customers, embroiled in a battle with her employer over minor theft and drinking. For the sake of click bait, the real truth is not being told, so I'm putting any judgments on hold until the truth emerges. But to those who wish her removed from flight duties because she is 'too old' be aware that another poster above has offered the revelation of Flight Attendant who was 91 years old!! Interestingly, back in the day when I flew TWA on a few positioning flights, I don't remember seeing any cabin crew who could be considered anything but old, especially the Chief Purser. I have no idea of their ages but some of the senior ones I guess were in their 70's and the juniors in economy in their 40's through 60's. This was compared to my national airline where the cabin crew throughout the aircraft were positively youthful by comparison.

Now I am all for older people working because God knows that there is no other way to survive if life hasn't been kind to you. I am reasonably confident that she could pass all the physical and mental requirements of the job and conduct her flight duties in the expected manner otherwise she wouldn't still be there, wouldn't be getting company awards and wouldn't be getting good job letters from her customers. Interestingly, Health and Safety has said you cant lift any more than X and are not allowed to lift passengers bag's into the bins in some airlines. I have no idea what Delta's policies are but it is quite likely that H&S avoids heavy lifting being part of her job description. So the only real risk for carrying a 79 year old is that she has a medical event en route that requires a diversion or that she dies on duty. Compared to those Captains who have medical events or collapsed dead on approach, the risk to the carrier and to safety on board seems incredibly less. I see no reason why she would be unable to administer O2, wield a fire extinguisher, guide passengers to evacuation exits or deploy life-rafts (passengers may be generally be asked to assist with this anyway since they are not one man or women deployable). Pushing a full drinks trolley up front on climb out may be testing but I suspect her senior position prevents her from having to play that game too often. The same applies to opening cabin doors which can be heavy and awkward to maneuver and especially when armed for an emergency evacuation. However, years of opening these doors means she has the technique down pat and clearly she passed the emergency drills on her annual training. ( The first time I opened a B727 door as a young man, it nearly threw me out of the aircraft with it! I was instructed how to get your stance right and understand the action, then you can get the door inertia to to all the hard work...while remaining in the aircraft). So, all I can say is that some people don't like seeing old people serve them a snack, would prefer a 'trolley dolly' and are just generally ageist. Can't do much about that I guess. If Delta doesn't want old employees, then the airline could certainly treat it's long serving employees better by offering severance packages to older staff that incentivise them to leave the workforce while offering the employee some forward security and adjustment time.

In any case, it seems some Delta Flight attendants do have a drinking problem. Looks like this one gets off lightly while the 79 year old gets hammered ..so to speak.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/118043061/usbased-flight-attendant-7-times-over-drink-limit

Hear, hear, Lord F.! It should be obvious to most with experience in the real world that the chances that an FA with more than half a century of clearly-distinguished service is guilty of the less-than-trivial "theft" of which Ms. Llanos was accused are very slim indeed. Common sense suggests that it is much more likely that her claim of being set up is closer to the truth. Older, more expensive employees are routinely targeted by envious coworkers and employers who would prefer to pay less for the work they do. That this is common knowledge is an understatement.

And thanks for the link to the story about the FA intercepted at LHR while trying fly while intoxicated. If she is still employed, the chances that Ms. Llano was really terminated for theft of milk are vanishingly-tiny.

[bafanguy]

I guess the incentive to the employee just wasn't there to make that scheme work.

There are approximately 250 DL F/As with 50+ years of service which puts them at ~70+ years old.

If they really want to encourage them to leave, they need to get serious about the money...really serious...along with a Medicare supplement perhaps.

It's true we don't know what happened to the lady who's the subject of this thread but I tend to lean away from a concerted plan to clear out the old F/A's due to their cost. There are just too few of them over all to go to so much trouble. Did her local cohorts gang up to make reports in sufficient numbers that management could not ignore because they just didn't like her ? Perhaps...who knows...

That these cohorts thought they'd benefit their own personal lives by clearing out one senior mama doesn't doesn't float. Clearing out all 250 of them out of 23,000 just doesn't improve anything. It's math.

[OldnGrounded]

That these cohorts thought they'd benefit their own personal lives by clearing out one senior mama doesn't doesn't float. Clearing out all 250 of them out of 23,000 just doesn't improve anything. It's math.

But envy and resentment aren't good at math.

[BEA 71]

Company pensions and health benefits are not God given benefits. They need to be negotiated and fought for. This can only be done by a union or another interest group.
A late cousin who worked for Allegheny ( later US Air ) enjoyed benefits even I, with a contract in Europe, did not have. However, I was a member of out negotiation group,
and we achieved very reasonable results. From which I benefit today. It was not for free - the company paid 50% of the dues, the employee the other. It does not speak for the 23,000 FAs if they are not able to use their power. I wonder what the rules for the pilots are. They are ALPA members, aren´t they?

[Water pilot]

I'm not sure that people in Europe quite "get" the situation in the US. Pensions are pretty much a thing of the past and once you leave your job you have no health coverage (you can buy it for a year under a plan called COBRA.) Unlike most of the rest of the world, when we talk about health benefits we are not talking about "nicer than the standard government health benefits", we are talking about "any" health benefits. One hospital was recently dinged from dumping people who couldn't pay from the ER room -- in their hospital gowns -- out to the local bus station. If you don't have employer insurance you are on your own, with the added little problem that insurance companies are not really that keen on selling "individual" plans even at obscene costs. I got a nice notice from my insurance company that they would no longer cover me because they don't do business in my county anymore, and they were the only provider serving my county! (They got upset that people were questioning why they were not covering transportation costs from my rural area to the hospital for "non life threatening cases" such as having chest pains that turned out to be nothing.) My wife and I were paying these guys over $1200/month, and it wasn't enough for them. The county scrambeled and begged some fly-by-night appearing firm to let us pay obscene prices for even less coverage so we will see how that goes.

Sorry to be off topic but realize that many people are working through old age here because they have to and it kind of strikes a nerve with me. Without health insurance, a weeks stay in the hospital will quickly bankrupt even middle income people. I'm one of the fortunate ones simply because I chose a lucky employer long ago and for along time have been able to do pretty much whatever I want to job-wise, but few people are in my boat, um so to speak.

To bring this back to aircraft, Boeing moved a lot of production to South Carolina which is a "right to work" (union busting) state which means no pension. (https://www.postandcourier.com/business/boeing-ending-pensions-for-nonunion-workers/article_e3d7fe3a-4293-5419-ac09-11481290a70e.html)

[tdracer]

It should be noted that the reason there isn't a FA union at Delta is that - for the most part - Delta has treated it's employees well enough that they didn't want to be bothered with a union and it's associated hassles and expenses. Back in the 1980s, the employees actually got together and donated enough money to pay for one of Delta's new 767s (subsequently named "The Spirit of Delta"). While today's Delta is far removed from the Delta that existed in the 1980s, there is still considerable company spirit, especially among the legacy Delta people (my understanding is that most of the push for a union is from people who used to be part of Northwest - not the legacy Delta - who were used to being shafted by their employeer).

There are some pretty obvious distortions in the published stories currently out there (the $250k salary for a FA is obviously fiction). Hopefully time will give us a better idea of the truth of the matter.

[obgraham]

Boeing moved a lot of production to South Carolina which is a "right to work" (union busting) state which means no pension. (https://www.postandcourier.com/business/boeing-ending-pensions-for-nonunion-workers/article_e3d7fe3a-4293-5419-ac09-11481290a70e.html) Well, No. It means no longer a Defined Benefit plan, a scheme which largely bankrupted the auto industry. And a switch to Defined Contribution plan, like just about everyone else.

[AviatorDave]

Flight attendants are on board mainly to guarantee the safety of passengers, and as a pax I wonder how efficient a 79 yo would be in guaranteeing and helping in my safety in case of an emergency.

I fully agree here. But that's what the respective annual training and tests she mentioned are for. If she can't pass the tests, why not state the facts clearly and dismiss her?

What comes to my mind is that she may have been passed out of PC, courtesy or even fear of age discrminination claims despite the fact she might not have been up to it any more.
That would certainly have annoyed her peers, and Delta would have just let the thing sort itself out and wait for her to slip up on something that would provide more solid grounds for dismissal.

[CISTRS]

What comes to my mind is that she may have been passed out of PC, courtesy or even fear of age discrminination claims despite the fact she might not have been up to it any more.
I find this very worrying.
Do pilots get given passes on medicals or sims due to PC, courtesy or even fear of age discrminination?

[BEA 71]

To Water Pilot

I read your statement with great interest. In spite of having spent much of my spare time in the U.S., over 30 years in Southwestern Colorado, I was not aware the situation is that bad now. Most of my ( late ) friends served in the military, and they enjoyed excellent medical benefits, the owner of the ranch, where I stayed, consulted a Indian chiropractor instead. I live in a small town on the Munich city limit, although there are cuts everywhere, I still enjoy the fact, that my doctor, a general practicioner, is still making house visits, that I would be taken to hospital " within minutes " if needed, even could enjoy a free helicopter ride, if it was a extremly urgent case. The staff at the emergency call centres are very efficient. I am most grateful for having these services, without worrying about money. We have to pay a significant share on medication, also have to pay a fee for each day in hospital, but it it is nothing which would ruin us. Praise The Lord!

The situation is totally different in other European countries, particularly in the South/East states where the cheque book mentality still exists. This wont change in the next decades, but starting from Austria and Switzerland up North, health care is good or even outstanding.

My very best wishes to you.

[AviatorDave]

I find this very worrying.
Do pilots get given passes on medicals or sims due to PC, courtesy or even fear of age discrminination?

Of course not (I hope ...), but I can see how this could be perceived as far less of a problem regarding FA's. For pilots, the negative impact of such doing would be immediately clear to everyone.

[The Range]

This lady is 79 and she wasn't even thinking about retiring!

[flash8]

Water Pilot

Very interesting and illuminating response
Never knew things were that bad!

I did hear though many folk are too scared to leave a company (and effectively locked into one) as their health benefits may not transfer over to any new employment if they have a pre-existing condition.

Scary stuff.

[CaptainMongo]

Water Pilot

Very interesting and illuminating response
Never knew things were that bad!

I did hear though many folk are too scared to leave a company (and effectively locked into one) as their health benefits may not transfer over to any new employment if they have a pre-existing condition.

Scary stuff.


In 2014 a federal law was passed requiring all insurance companies in the United States to cover pre existing conditions. There is no longer a pre existing condition trap, and there hasn’t been one for 5 years.

My sister quit her job and became indigent with serious, ultimately fatal, medical issues. She was then covered by Medicaid. (A Federal/State health insurance Plan for those earning not more than approximately 133% of the poverty level - most recently about 72 million people are on Medicaid) Since we took care of her, I witnessed first hand she had health care and treatment I would have had. She stayed in nursing homes I would have stayed in and she had end of life care I would hope for.