Cargo Jet makes a 360 at 100’

[fox niner]

https://mobile.twitter.com/chairmanofthe12/status/1201791941450567680?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembe d%7Ctwterm%5E1201791941450567680&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.upinthesky.nl%2F2019%2F12%2F04%2Fb izarre-landing-boeing-727-video%2F

well....surely looks amazing. Mogadishu is unsafe (never been there) but so is this.

[what next]

Mogadishu is unsafe (never been there) but so is this.

What's more unsafe: Flying 50+ year old cargo planes or flying circles at 100ft?

[OldnGrounded]

What's more unsafe: Flying 50+ year old cargo planes or flying circles at 100ft?

Maybe flying circles at 100' in a 50-yr-old airplane . . . over Mogadishu?

Is there a link somewhere? What am I missing?

[Airbubba]

As an airline pilot supposedly announced to the pax while taxiing past a burning cargo plane at Denver 'Don't worry folks, it's just a freighter!'

[jack11111]

Your less of a target doing 360 offshore, than missed approach over a surface-to-air missile detail off departure end of runway.

I'm guessing that's not this captain's first low level 360.
.

[gearlever]

Cool Skipper, no belt.
When did this happen?
I mean there are not so many 727s still flying.

[macdo]

Fair play to the guy, he came out of the 360 still with the RadAlt saying 100'! Mind you I remember a Skip that got retired for doing a 360 going into HER at 200'. The FO was most put out!

[Mister Geezer]

Reminds me of a story when I was contacted several years ago about a contract flying a 146 daily into Mogadishu when it was more dangerous than it is today. The profile would be a steep teardrop out to sea and only at night and then fly in at no more than a couple of hundred feet on the rad alt, as being low off shore was deemed to be the best mitigation strategy to any nasties being fired from the shore. All the exterior lights would have been off until 'over the fence' when the landing lights would have been switched on. I can therefore understand why such low level flying at Mogadishu may be deemed safer than a more conventional profile, as hinted by jack11111 in his post.

[gearlever]

Too long ago, so I'm asking.
Are the two green lights on the FE panel the wing anti ice valves/lights?

Thx

[Gauges and Dials]

Too long ago, so I'm asking.
Are the two green lights on the FE panel the wing anti ice valves/lights?

Thx

The green lights indicate the Chemtrail discharge valves open.

[Airbubba]

Some history of the aircraft from a Facebook page:

BRANIFF STILL FLYING TODAY BOEING 727-227 N446BN - Braniff International Boeing 727-227 Advanced registered as N446BN is taxiing at Denver Stapleton International Airport on May 9, 1982 (Photo 1). The big Boeing Trijet is painted in the 1971 Glenn Geddis/Harper and George Green over Olive Green Two Tone Color Scheme. This aircraft played a historic role in the relaunch of Braniff Airways successor Braniff, Inc., in March 1984. This aircraft was the 46th 727-200 delivered and the 40th Series -227 to enter Braniff's fleet.

Ship N446BN was also the sixth Series -227 Advanced jetliner of eight delivered to Braniff during 1976, beginning on April 22, 1976, with Ship N441BN and the eighth delivered was N448BN on October 28, 1976. N446BN first flew at Boeing Renton, Washington, plant on July 22, 1976, and was delivered to Braniff at the Dallas Love Field Base on July 27, 1976. The aircraft was delivered in the 1971 Green over Olive Green Two Tone Color Scheme and would remain in that color scheme until retirement from Braniff International (Photo 2: At IAH Jun 30 1979).

The aircraft flew for Braniff for six years before being retired and then stored at Dallas/Ft Worth Regional Airport on May 12, 1982, when the carrier ceased operations. A trustee and trust was set up to represent certain of Braniff's secured creditors called the BRNF Liquidating Trust and N446BN was placed in this trust by June 1982.

In the Fall of 1983 a reorganization plan for Braniff Airways and its parent company Braniff International Corporation, was approved by the carrier's unions and creditors and on December 15, 1983, both companies were succeeded by Dalfort Corporation, which became the sole owner of the newly formed Braniff, Inc., a new airline that operated out of DFW Airport, Texas, to 18 major metropolitan cities in the United States.

On December 15, 1983, thirty former Braniff Airways 727-200 Trijet aircraft were leased to Braniff, Inc. Ship N446BN was the first on the list of thirty that included successive tail numbers through N472BN which were all -227 Advanced aircraft. The other three aircraft were 727-291s registered as N406BN and N408BN, the second former Calder painted jetliner, and 727-214 registered as N409BN.

Ship N446BN and the other leased 727s were all painted in the new color scheme designed by Boeing designer Bob Perlman. The new scheme featured a White upper fuselage and Midnight Blue lower fuselage with Dark Red Braniff Block lettering under the window line behind the front cabin doors and a similar but smaller script going up the rear of the tail. A Platinum Silver cheat line separated the White and Blue sections of the fuselage.

On March 1, 1984, the new Braniff, Inc., was launched, amidst much fanfare, at Dallas/Ft Worth Regional Airport. This was the largest single day launch of a new airline in the history of aviation, which succeeded Braniff Airways' record launch of new service six year earlier on December 15, 1978. After a special ribbon cutting ceremony at The Braniff Terminal 2W Gate 13A at DFW the first flight of the new Braniff, Inc., Flight 200 departed for New Orleans, Louisiana, at 650AM using Boeing 727-227 registered as N446BN. Braniff's strategy of providing high frequency flights targeted at the business traveler flying at the upper end of the highest of Coach fares proved to be unsuccessful and within six months the airline completely overhauled its strategy.

Braniff returned ten Boeing 727 aircraft to the BRNF Liquidating Trust including N446BN on February 19, 1985, and reinvented itself as a strictly low-fare DFW hub operator with a highly reduced schedule. In May 1985, the aircraft was sold to Houston-based Continental Airlines along with N447BN through N452BN. Continental painted the aircraft in their color scheme but retained the N446BN registration number for nearly two years.

On October 22, 1987, the aircraft was registered as N73751 and remained in service with Continental until 1999 (Photo 3: At PHX Feb 26 1996). The aircraft was sold to First State Bank of Utah in 1987, and leased back to Continental and then sold to First Security Bank on February 8, 1999. The aircraft was then converted to a freighter configuration in July 1999.

Finova Capital Corporation purchased N446BN on March 28, 2000, and 18 months later on September 19, 2001, the big Boeing Trijet was withdrawn from use at Phoenix Goodyear Airport, and was then stored. Finova and its parent company filed for bankruptcy during 2001, and N446BN was sold to Express.net Airlines in February 2004. The aircraft then entered service with Express.net, a cargo carrier based in Naples, Florida (Photo 4: At FLL Nov 22, 2005). The carrier was founded as Transcontinental Airlines in 1972, but ceased operations in 2008. N446BN was stored until a new owner could be found.

N446BN was sold to Outsourcing for Africa, a well know charter airline that provided short term leasing and contracts. The carrier changed its name to Africa Charter Airlines and purchased N446BN on August 5, 2009. The aircraft was reregistered as ZS-IAC and leased out to Safair and twice to Imperial Air Cargo (Photo 5: At CPT Nov 30, 2010). On January 19, 2010, the aircraft, operating for Africa Charter Airlines, was on a charter flight from Johannesburg, South Africa, to Cape Town and on landing on Runway 19 at Cape Town both left main gear tires blew on touchdown. The aircraft was not damaged and was returned to service.

In 2014, Ship N446BN was stored at an unknown location in Africa. In addition, the aircraft was listed on several jet freighter available lists as being available for service. The aircraft was eventually sold to Astral Aviation sometime after 2014. However, as of February 2019, the aircraft is currently operating for Astral Aviation of Nairobi, Kenya. Ship N446BN was reregistered in Kenya as 5Y-MWM. On November 24, 2017, the big Boeing debuted on television when it was used for a humanitarian flight.

Follow the link below to see the new coverage of the humanitarian flight of N446BN operating as 5Y-MWM:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=243830459882262

[gearlever]

The green lights indicate the Chemtrail discharge valves open.

Ah, didn't know they are spraying over Somalia waters.
But what do I know?

[gums]

Salute!

Ahhh man, Bubba. You bring back too many memories.
Western, Pan Am, TWA, Eastern, Repulsive, oops, Republic, ASA, and.....

Gums sends...

[gearlever]

Precise manual flying in direct law:O

[tdracer]

When I first joined Boeing in 1977, Braniff was taking delivery of a large batch of 727s. At that time, Braniff aircraft were painted in solid colors (most a bit garish) with the slogan of "Flying Colors".
The 727s had the "Flying Colors" slogan painted across the center inlet on the top of the fuselage. It didn't take long for the mechanics on the Renton flight line to figure out there was an access panel where the 'l' in Flying Colors was painted. That panel was left off whenever possible, so that the slogan read "Flying Coors"...

[4runner]

Cool Skipper, no belt.
When did this happen?
I mean there are not so many 727s still flying.

quite a few in Afrika. They land them on dirt strips too.

[Airbubba]

That panel was left off whenever possible, so that the slogan read "Flying Coors"...

And in those days you could only buy Coors beer west of the Mississippi River so there was considerable mystique associated with bringing back a case of that 'imported beer' to your buddies back east.

[Lord Farringdon]

Precise manual flying in direct law:O


Yes I have to say that with all the sprays on this forum about lack of manual flying skills today occasioned by automation, this was a display of seat of the pants flying and knowing the performance of your steed. I can remember quite a few air show displays that we put on with the B727 that looked pretty much like this from the flight deck and from the ground. So much so in fact that I thought for a moment this was one of our ex Air Force birds, one of which I know ended up flying cargo in Africa, but the history doesn't fit. Yeah I know it's a bit different doing a a well briefed and practiced air show display vs casually rocking off short finals for a 360 and back in for a 'stabilsed' approach, but the aeroplane doesn't know that!!

Aside from that, the SAM and small arms threat at some African fields over the ages have demanded 'sporty' approaches and departures that really couldn't be automated and certainly weren't procedural. I don't know what the threat to air in Mogadishu is today, but I remember in Salisbury, Rhodesia just before Joshua Nkomo lost the subsequent election to Robert Mugabe, we had to spiral down directly over the airfield and execute a curved short final that would make even a Kaitak veteran shudder. The approaches were known to harbor mobile SAM sites and small arms fire was very likely. Air Rhodesia lost two Viscounts to Strella SAM's.

" Following the second incident, Air Rhodesia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Rhodesia) added shrouding to the exhaust pipes of their Viscount aircraft to reduce their infrared signature (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_signature), and painted the aircraft with a low-radiation paint as countermeasures against heat-seeking missiles" (Wiki).

So yes this was a ballsy and some might say unsafe maneuver but when flying in this part of the world there is always an element of risk that only human skill and experience is likely to overcome rather than automation or strict adherence to procedures. It's a fair bet this is not the first time he has had to do this either !!

[rjtjrt]

The captain seems to have lived a very interesting life. Long experience in 727.
Some years ago he spent nearly 18/12 in a Zimbabwe prison after a 727 flight to Equatorial Guinea was interrupted.

[inthenightgarden]

As someone else mentioned I suspect this isn't the first 360 at 100 feet the captain has flown and it sure as hell beats being shot at. He flew it like it was on rails, well done sir.
​​​​​​

[Chronic Snoozer]

No magenta lines here. Hand flying, nothing beats it. :ok:

In a week where there have been videos of poor decision making below MSA, sadly here’s another one. Accidents just don’t happen, they are caused!

However, this guy knows what he is doing, clearly.

[Airbubba]

Some years ago he spent nearly 18/12 in a Zimbabwe prison after a 727 flight to Equatorial Guinea was interrupted.

Wasn't Niel [sic] jailed for 17 months in Zim? Or does 'nearly 18/12' mean almost 18 months? I thought he looked familiar in the video.

Here's some background on an earlier thread:

https://www.pprune.org/african-aviation/121894-zimbobwe-seizes-us-cargo-plane-mercenaries.html

I guess doing a circle at 100 feet RA is not the riskiest thing he's done in a plane. :eek:

[Lord Farringdon]

Wasn't Niel [sic] jailed for 17 months in Zim? Or does 'nearly 18/12' mean almost 18 months? I thought he looked familiar in the video.

I guess doing a circle at 100 feet RA is not the riskiest thing he's done in a plane. :eek:

Maybe that explains the absence of shoulder harness in the video. After spending 18 months in one of Mad Bob's 'hotel suites' the last thing he ever wants to feel again is under restraint!!!

[cessnaxpilot]

Are you all really so impressed with doing a 360 degree turn back to final without a seatbelt? You guys need to get out more!

[FlightDetent]

Has the link gone AWOL?

[TheEdge]

Does anyone know what is the real reason for a 360 below MSA ? was this provided for ?

[Lord Farringdon]

Are you all really so impressed with doing a 360 degree turn back to final without a seatbelt? You guys need to get out more!
Have you taken your medication today cessnaxpilot?

[ATC Watcher]

360 on short final ? for Africa, not that unusual. especially over water , (but not always )
Does anyone know what is the real reason for a 360 below MSA ? was this provided for ?
Cessna SEP landed before still on runway it would seem.
gearlever : I mean there are not so many 727s still flying.
Still a few around , even two (re-engined) in Europe,,
Note that this 727 is African PBN certified .. ( the Garmin 196 taped on top of shield ) .:E

[TheEdge]

360 on short final ? for Africa, not that unusual. especially over water , (but not always )

Cessna SEP landed before still on runway it would seem.


Yes i got that, thanks ...i was more wondering why not following the prescribed procedure instead of a 360 below MSA...i tried to check on Somali AIP and it looks like a standard MAP is provided for.

[Starbear]

360 above or below MSA, what's the difference?

[jack11111]

70 Mustang Quote:
" I would have made left turns! "

Left 360...closer to land and shooting.
Right 360...more over water and less shooting.
.

[rog747]

Fair play to the guy, he came out of the 360 still with the RadAlt saying 100'! Mind you I remember a Skip that got retired for doing a 360 going into HER at 200'. The FO was most put out!

I've been on a 737 yonks ago do this going into some Greek island perhaps abit higher, plus recall seeing an EAL 727-100 do this at Key West also a very long time ago

[Duck Pilot]

Here we go again!

Get on with it people, the Captain obviously made a decision at the time to do what he did based on his experience and the environment, is that wrong? No in my opinion!

Was it dangerous and stupid, probably not considering the information already available. If there were pax in the back, yes what he done was absolutely stupid.

A freighter operating into a war zone, all bets are off survival is paramount - screw the rules it’s a survival game.

Kids of the magenta! Old aeroplanes with clocks will always sort the big dogs out who can piss in the long grass without getting wet.

[Hawker400]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x1291/img_20191205_wa0005_5ee9a17a8e4a7c4330e4322085b11f7adf0c93bd .jpg

It's not like he had many other options

[ATC Watcher]

Old aeroplanes with clocks will always sort the big dogs out who can piss in the long grass without getting wet.
Best quotation I've heard in a long time , do you mind if I use it? :ok:

[beardy]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/750x1291/img_20191205_wa0005_5ee9a17a8e4a7c4330e4322085b11f7adf0c93bd .jpg

It's not like he had many other options
That plate hasn't been updated for 10 years. When was the film taken?
He did have an option to use more height, didn't he?

[Capt Fathom]

He should have climbed to 200 feet! :E

[THYTHY]

Glad to see someone who actually knows how to fly . My congrats to the skipper . Most pilots nowadays would crash or stall halfway through the turn.

[TheEdge]

He should have climbed to 200 feet! :E
Exactly !! Kudos to the skipper.

[Rarife]

Glad to see someone who actually knows how to fly . My congrats to the skipper . Most pilots nowadays would crash or stall halfway through the turn.

Why would I stall in turn?

It is crazy how many people here (and that makes it worse) think how awesome it is. Remember that BA 777 which lost both engines on approach to LHR? Those guys should have done some 360 to show how big balls they have.

Honestly I think most of you forget that purpose of commercial flying with people behind is not to show how big balls you have.

[TheEdge]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1377x1836/hcmm_1_8761c7af110b7873a28bbcec2c69440d4d8a6482.png
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1345x1794/image1_2__4186846b6347166b8c10d7aba8cc0ad2218a8209.png
it looks like that there are indeed, at least nowadays, MAP for that airport

[THYTHY]

Why would you stall an aircraft during a steep turn in a high drag configuration ? Lack of basic skills , that's why .

[mnttech]

Kids of the magenta! Old aeroplanes with clocks will always sort the big dogs out who can piss in the long grass without getting wet.
Thanks Duck Pilot, that made my day....
I found the Garmin on the top of the glare shield interesting, but probably a really smart idea.
I'm also impressed on the 360 and staying at a hundred. Good skills that are going lost.

[Rarife]

Why would you stall an aircraft during a steep turn in a high drag configuration ? Lack of basic skills , that's why .

How can you even know that it is true? Why is everyone who is not like 80 years old and did not bomb Vietcong considered to be total **** here?

[fox niner]

So is there anyone out here who has actually BEEN to Moghadishu, who can explain why he could not have made a right hand climbing turn to say 500’ ? Which sounds more sensible to me, sitting at the kitchen table north of 51 north.

[Rarife]

So is there anyone out here who has actually BEEN to Moghadishu, who can explain why he could not have made a right hand climbing turn to say 500’ ? Which sounds more sensible to me, sitting at the kitchen table north of 51 north.

That is obviously for cowards and people who can not fly...:rolleyes:

[PAXboy]

Welcome to Africa! That South African pilot did not have pax to worry about and got the job done. Not to mention that the 72 has all the grunt needed to do something unusual. They do things differently in Africa because they have to.

[What Traffic]

So is there anyone out here who has actually BEEN to Moghadishu, who can explain why he could not have made a right hand climbing turn to say 500’ ? Which sounds more sensible to me, sitting at the kitchen table north of 51 north.

I asked the same question elsewhere and was told by an experienced commercial pilot who has flown into Mogadishu that Strela 2's (known to be floating around in Mogadishu) will not fire at under a 7 degree inclination, so staying low is imperative.

I believe that he believed what he was saying. I don't know if the SA-7 firing inclination is actually true or not.

[Nick 1]

Hand flying a 360 holding the altitude ? Potential disaster , send the guy to jail..errr wait been there already .
Where aviation is going ? We deserve pilotless aircraft ..

[ShyTorque]

Does anyone know what is the real reason for a 360 below MSA ? was this provided for ?

Gosh...someone flies below MSA not on a straight in, IFR approach...shock horror!

[Sick]

As any navy pilot would tell you, it is very very easy to accidentally fly into the sea, even in perfect visual conditions. 360 at 100' in a 727, no HUD - one moments inattention or look inside and it's over.

[Sobelena]

Considering the reasons given by those who know the area and its potential dangers, I don't understand why negative comments continue. I (now) understand the need to stay low and can only admire that guy's excellent flying skills.

[jafflyer]

Long time no post here but I will say this

Pilots like this would NEVER crash because of a faulty MCAS.

[meleagertoo]

I think the surprise and alarm expresed here is simply an example of how the magenta line mentality has taken over so many of us and anything remotely 'operational' is regarded as cowboy because it dosn't fit our idea of SOPs. That is perhaps not surprising, though somewhat unimaginative even in people who have only seen commercial training and airline work.
Reality, especially in Africa, is somewhat different.

I was a rehgular in and around Mog in '93 when Operation Restore Hope was launched and the Blackhawk incident happened (when I was on leave, dammit!).

The yellow plates are an accurate depiction of the situation then, and it would not be any different anytime a small-arms/MANPADS threat exisits. We don't know the date of the OP's video, but it is far from new.

Mog was populated at the time with a number of heavily armed factions all fighting in/with/against ever changing internal alliances and mostly anti the UN forces present. Small-arms and mg fire was heard throughout the night and often in daytime. Every now and again a firefight would break out and it would get quite noisy for a while. Mortars were used and all the factions had 'technicals', pickup trucks with anything from a small machine gun to canon mounted on them. There were believed to be ZSU23/4s in the region too which are really nasty. A stoned somali with a 12.5 on a pickup truck isn't something you want to encounter or overfly if you can help it. Stoned 14yr olds in flip-flops and shorts with Kalashnikovs are bad enough! Rumour had it they had SAM7 too but afaik no evidence for this was ever found.
Believe me you are very aware of your mortality in a place like that.

Thus the thinking pilot flew tactically and never draged his arse over land below 5000ft is he could help it. (btw, not all pilots flying into Mog at the time fell nto that category, some seemed to like being sitting ducks - probably some SOP thing). Our 727 Captain made a sensible decision whan baulked by a Cessna on the runway and did a 360. A standard go-around at that point would have unnecessarily exposed him to small-arms as he climbed over the southern part of the city and been an expensive and extensive precedure both in time and fuel. What's the point? He'd know what and where the other traffic was and transmit hs intentions on the common (tower) frequency - I'm assuming there was no control there, maybe not even a radio service.

What is the problem with a 200ft circuit? Can pilots not fly at 200ft without hitting the sea? Strewth! Why climb? That involves retracting gear and flap and running a whole gamut of checks - and for what? What use is that extra few/several hundred feet? Even if you just keep the config and drift up to 500ft in the turn you're making unnecessary work for yourself by having to judge/calculate an ad-hoc downwind leg to get you back onto the 3 degree slope twice as far out rather than flying a dead simple 360 knowing you'll come back to exactly back where you started.
That's daft! Why waste the fuel or time? What is wrong with stay low, keep the configuration, turn 360' at rate one and and return accurately to finals 2 minutes later?The smart thing he did was not to overcomplicate a simple manoeuvre. Its not as if he's operating at a busy preocedural hub, he's going into a hot coastel bush-strip that happens to be 10,000ft of concrete and only the fish are unarmed. A capable pilot will have no difficulty doing this under the right weather conditions...but in haze, no sharp hoizon - more judgement would be required. It's that vile, unmentionalbe word again. C@*****cy. What we all used to need before stifling SOPs eradicated it. This is Practical flying as much as it is Procedural, whch, sadly, is the only bit most airline pilots know. (For instance, how many airline pilots today know what an 80/280 turn is, and why it's so very useful? Some will no doubt cringe at the appalling possibilities of such a 'non-approved manoeuvre' but if you ever need to accurately reposition on a reciprocal heading and on track it's a pretty handy tool to have in your box.)

This may seem extreme or hazardous to modern airline pilots but it is clear that he was not one of those, but a pilot who knew how to operate his craft without having to stick rigidly to a script written in an office.

Far from obeying Jeppesens' rather naiive magenta line to 600ft before turn on departure (aka the Darwin 1 Departure) he, like the rest of us would have got airborne and turned as steeply as possible without clobbering the sand dunes and got the hell out to sea. Then you'd run out a couple of miles at a couple of hudred feet (eeeuwww!) before climbing SE to a height that would allow you to recross the coast at a sensible level, for most c. Fl100 or so.

Approach in the winter monsoon with 23 in use was somewhat sportier. Staggering over the city below 500ft at approach speed would not be too bright (though some did - USAF especially, the least tactically aware flyers I've ever seen) - I used to (C208) come overhead at FL80 or so, head a mile or two offshore, drop full flap, beta the prop in a left turn to arrive at one mile left base leg for 23 heading for the SW end of the parking ramp, commencing a steep descending turn over the ramp to touch down at half distance. It's simple self preservation. Was it hazardous? Hell no! Safer than stooging around over a free-for-all shooting gallery at approach heights and speeds, and hardly hazardous from an aviation point of view, it just involved actively flying the aeroplane at heights not usually done with airliners. It's only flying the bloody aeroplane after all. Isn't thst what we're supposed to be able to do? Bloody spectacular when Hercs did it though. If they had to the bigger jets would do as tight a turn onto ultra low/short finals as far as their higher speeds allowed but usually preferred a downwnd landing on 05 rather than a near wingtip scraping turn over the threshold as I saw an EVA Air 747 do once.

The people who came unstuck in that part of the world were the ones who forgot/stretched the fundamentals of weight and performance, not those who employed the fundamentals of skilful flying which is all too common in Africa.

I believe Mog operates as a normal airfield these days so all this is history and Mr Jepp is again king, but if you're flying into places where anything moving is a potential target it sharpens one's judgement wonderfully as to where you want to be and for how long rather than how Mr Jeppesen or formal training suggests you might.

[ATC Watcher]

As any navy pilot would tell you,(....) no HUD - one moments inattention or look inside and it's over.
Are ( were) you a navy pilot ?
This was a perfect Cavok day with a clear visible horizon, a fixed horizon angle above the glare-shield will keep you level in any type of aircraft at any altitude ,

[Wooden_Blades]

Is there a link somewhere? What am I missing?

Same here -- no see linkie...

[India Four Two]

Here you go:

https://youtu.be/rcRhoY5azgM

[OldnGrounded]

Long time no post here but I will say this

Pilots like this would NEVER crash because of a faulty MCAS.

If unknown MCAS kicked in unexpectedly at 100' in level flight, trimming AND at 0.4 units per second . . . ?

NEVER say never.

[Wooden_Blades]

Holy crap - watching that gave me the sweaty palms instantly. Firefox had blocked the video, so thanks for the tips and Youtube! Learn something every day.

[OldnGrounded]

Here you go:

https://youtu.be/rcRhoY5azgM

Thanks. * * *

[Water pilot]

Perhaps I am a bit paranoid but you do have to wonder a bit why there was somebody with a camera hanging out at the barbed wire fence at the start of the runway, and if you look in the second video there is a high speed zodiac that seems to be trying to track the plane...

[Slow and curious]

Perhaps I am a bit paranoid but you do have to wonder a bit why there was somebody with a camera hanging out at the barbed wire fence at the start of the runway, and if you look in the second video there is a high speed zodiac that seems to be trying to track the plane...
Indeed!
There is no excuse for not buckling up.

[Barcli]

Well said meleagertoo - basic flying skills that are so sadly/ badly lacking these days .......

[DeanoP]

The pilot maybe at 100ft but the wing tip is about 70 feet above the sea which is a bit too close for comfort and to what end. He could have easily have increased height to a safe distance without altering the aircraft's configuration. Supposedly no pax but two other crew members at risk

[Paul852]

If you read the rest of the thread you will see that the "end" was to minimise the chance of being shot down by surface to air missiles!

[Rarife]

...

With all respect I shortenen your post because it was too long to quote.

He flew that nicely, no doubt.
I admit it would be nice to fly like that. But that is Somalia. Most of people here probably do not fly in Somalia but that does not mean they are all bad and they do not even have basic flying skills. There are people on board. There are people on ground. There are people in other aircraft. The other aircraft are like everywhere around you. Are you going to do a fancy 360 just above ground because you got the skill and missed approach is for ... kittens?

And about the rules. How we decide when breaking the rules is ok and when it is not ok? There are rules or there are not rules. Selectively picking just rules I like is not the good way.

[Old King Coal]

meleagertoo well said.... pink string pilots versus blokes that know how to look out the window and 'figure it out' without recourse to flight directors and whatnot.

Go northeast of the airfield and you're immediately adjacent to the city itself... which is not a good place to be if you're averse to extra holes being shot / blown into your aeroplane or yourself.

Last time I landed in MGQ there were no instrument approach aids, no PAPI's, no runway lights, a vigorous dust storm blowing, the vis was approx 1 mile, with Presidential pax in the back of our Classic (non-GPS) B737, along with a sodding great map shift just to add to the fun (as no en-route navaids in Somalia for the FMC to update itself against)... thus revert to mk.1 eyeball, airmanship and experience.

Likewise on take-off there was none of that Jepessen rubbish. One followed the other chart (the colourful one shown above), i.e. as soon as one lifts off, crack it hard over to the right (making sure to miss that big sand dune) and bugger off out to sea (directly away from the city) as fast as one can go and at fairly low level, then climb to a good height before heading back towards the coast.... ergo pretty much precisely what you've described. :ok:

[Cool Guys]

Some years ago I read the following on one of the threads here. Cant tell you where or who wrote it but I loved it so much I copied it onto my PC, hence I am able to paste it here for all to enjoy:

There I was at six thousand feet over central Iraq , two hundred eighty knots and we're dropping faster than Paris Hilton's panties. It's a typical September evening in the Persian Gulf; hotter than a rectal thermometer and I'm sweating like a priest at a Cub Scout meeting. But that's neither here nor there. The night is moonless over Baghdad tonight, and blacker than a Steven King novel. But it's 2006, folks, and I'm sporting the latest in night-combat technology - namely, hand-me-down night vision goggles (NVGs) thrown out by the fighter boys. Additionally, my 1962 Lockheed C-130E Hercules is equipped with an obsolete, yet, semi-effective missile warning system (MWS). The MWS conveniently makes a nice soothing tone in your headset just before the missile explodes into your airplane. Who says you can't polish a turd? At any rate, the NVGs are illuminating Baghdad International Airport like the Las Vegas Strip during a Mike Tyson fight. These NVGs are the cat's ass. But I've digressed. The preferred method of approach tonight is the random shallow. This tactical manoeuver allows the pilot to ingress the landing zone in an unpredictable manner, thus exploiting the supposedly secured perimeter of the airfield in an attempt to avoid enemy surface-to-air-missiles and small arms fire. Personally, I wouldn't bet my pink ass on that theory but the approach is fun as hell and that's the real reason we fly it. We get a visual on the runway at three miles out, drop down to one thousand feet above the ground, still maintaining two hundred eighty knots as we overfly the runway. Now the fun starts. It's pilot appreciation time as I descend the mighty Herc to six hundred feet and smoothly, yet very deliberately, yank into a sixty degree left bank, turning the aircraft ninety degrees offset from runway heading. As soon as we roll out of the turn, I reverse turn to the right a full two hundred seventy degrees in order to roll out aligned with the runway. Some aeronautical genius coined this maneuver the "Ninety/Two-Seventy." Chopping the power during the turn, I pull back on the yoke just to the point my nether regions start to sag, bleeding off energy in order to configure the pig for landing. "Flaps Fifty!, landing Gear Down!, Before Landing Checklist!" I look over at the copilot and he's shaking like a cat ****ting on a sheet of ice. Looking further back at the navigator, and even through the NVGs, I can clearly see the wet spot spreading around his crotch. Finally, I glance at my steely eyed flight engineer. His eyebrows rise in unison as a grin forms on his face. I can tell he's thinking the same thing I am .... "Where do we find such fine young men? "Flaps One Hundred!" I bark at the shaking cat. Now it's all aim-point and airspeed. Aviation 101, with the exception there are no lights, I'm on NVGs, it's Baghdad , and now tracers are starting to crisscross the black sky. Naturally, and not at all surprisingly, I grease the Goodyear's on brick-one of runway 33 left, bring the throttles to ground idle and then force the props to full reverse pitch. Tonight, the sound of freedom is my four Hamilton Standard propellers chewing through the thick, putrid, Baghdad air. The huge, one hundred thirty-thousand pound, lumbering whisper pig comes to a lurching stop in less than two thousand feet. Let's see a Viper do that! We exit the runway to a welcoming committee of government issued Army grunts. It's time to download their beans and bullets and letters from their sweethearts, look for war booty, and of course, urinate on Saddam's home. Then I thank God I'm not in the Army. Knowing once again I've cheated death, I ask myself, "What in the hell am I doing in this mess?" Is it Duty, Honor, and Country? You bet your ass. Or could it possibly be for the glory, the swag, and not to mention, chicks dig the Air Medal. There's probably some truth there, too. But now is not the time to derive the complexities of the superior, cerebral properties of the human portion of the aviator-man-machine model. It is however, time to get out of this hole. Hey copilot how's 'bout the 'Before Starting Engines Checklist." God, I love this job!!!!

[meleagertoo]

And about the rules. How we decide when breaking the rules is ok and when it is not ok? There are rules or there are not rules. Selectively picking just rules I like is not the good way.


I'm not clear what rules he broke. There are no low flying rules over the ocean, you said "there are other aircraft like all around you". I'm unsure how similar to "all around you" these other aircraft are. They either are all around you or they are not. In any case I clearly stated the airspace there is quiet and any traffic is talking to you on a common frequency. Again, what hazard do you percieve? (a real hazard, not someting like a hazard).

I suspect you are merely uncomfortable because he flew in a manner you are not accustomed to and perhaps one you had not previously considered, ie a practical manner in order not to get an extra hole in his ass. These are self-help skills required in bush or tactical flying and can save your life, certainly make it a lot less stressful. The skills themselves don't apply much or often in airline work but for sure the mindset that comes with them does - the ability to problem solve outside the box and not rely on outside support to get you out of trouble.

[Auxtank]

Children Of The Magenta Line NB;

Look how the PF takes his SA from looking out the windows - whilst the aircraft reports audibly its concerns.

Eyes Mk1; still the best instrument in the cockpit.

This means you.

[bingofuel]

Just another day at the office for a Nimrod!

[Dan_Brown]

Children Of The Magenta Line NB;

Look how the PF takes his SA from looking out the windows - whilst the aircraft reports audibly its concerns.

Eyes Mk1; still the best instrument in the cockpit.

This means you.

Correct, "get your head out of the cockpit"..First consideration with airmanship is lookout.

You don't learn these skills ablely demonstrated in the clips, sitting in a classroom!! You cannot be taught ability. You are born with it. These skills are also attained and maintained through practise. Oh and there's no substitute for experience.

[PAXboy]

Watch the video and see how the horizon is set across his window - once there, he keeps it there.
Watch how he keeps looking further round the turn.
He has a Co Pilot to watch outside and listen too.
He has also got an FE to watch anything inside.
He briefed the turn when he saw the light aircraft ahead of him - so they had time to check for traffic.
From the start of the video and awareness of the other a/c, to starting the turn is about 23 seconds.
So no one was taken by surprise.


Consider that, at some small African stopping points, you have to buzz the tower to let them know you have arrived as their radio is u/s. In some places when there is a war, the 'tower' decamps to the tallest hotel building in town and you buzz THAT.

I am not a pilot in Africa but my nephew is.

[172510]

Does anyone know what is the real reason for a 360 below MSA ? was this provided for ?
If you don't see the surface of the earth, it's certainly stupid to do a 360 below MSA. But if the ceiling & visibility are good I can't see anything wrong in doing a 360 below MSA. 100ft AMSL is certainly a bit low but in Somalia there are certainly many things to take into account when it comes to make a decision about flying height.

[OMAAbound]

Welcome to Africa, in light of everything it was a pretty sensible option.

im not surprised he didn’t go ahead with the landing initially and ignore the light aircraft. Hit the TDZ and give it max berries on the reversers/brakes and hope he comes up short.

OMAA

[Capn Bloggs]

That put a smile on my face, Cool Guys! :ok:

[Phantom Driver]

The pilot maybe at 100ft but the wing tip is about 70 feet above the sea which is a bit too close for comfort and to what end. He could have easily have increased height to a safe distance without altering the aircraft's configuration.

Think you'll find he did indeed get some more height somewhere round the circle . 1.25 min video was edited ( break in the middle ) ; you don't do a 360 in 1 minute with that angle of bank in a 727 . "100 " radalt call came at short finals and then again when he established for the second approach ; no guaranty that was the height maintained throughout the circle .
Nice low level flying in a big jet though .

Perhaps I am a bit paranoid but you do have to wonder a bit why there was somebody with a camera hanging out at the barbed wire fence at the start of the runway, and if you look in the second video there is a high speed zodiac that seems to be trying to track the plane...

Good question.....

[Fonsini]

Now do it in IMC with a crosswind, at night. I demand to be entertained.

[gearlever]

That put a smile on my face, Cool Guys! :ok:

Me too.

And what a masterpiece of engineering the 727 was/is.
Still my favorite.

[Airbubba]

Some years ago I read the following on one of the threads here. Cant tell you where or who wrote it but I loved it so much I copied it onto my PC, hence I am able to paste it here for all to enjoy:

There I was at six thousand feet over central Iraq , two hundred eighty knots and we're dropping faster than Paris Hilton's panties. It's a typical September evening in the Persian Gulf; hotter than a rectal thermometer and I'm sweating like a priest at a Cub Scout meeting.

The civilian version of the Herc war story was also posted earlier on PPRuNe, it goes like this here (as David Allan Coe once sang ;)):

There I was at twenty six thousand feet over central Iraq, 330 kts TAS and we're dropping faster than the US dollar. It's a typical November day in the Persian Gulf -- hotter than a chicken vindaloo in a heatwave and I'm sweating like a paedophile in Toys-R-Us.

But that's neither here nor there. The sky is obscured over Baghdad today and greyer than my shirts after the Cameroon contract. But it's 2007, folks, and I'm sporting the latest in navigation technology. Namely a window.

My 1975 Fokker 28 is equipped with an effective missile warning system, too. When the missile hits the engine, the fire bells come on in the cockpit, its amazingly efficient.

At any rate, the clouds covering Baghdad International Airport are as thick as Mike Tyson’s lips after fight night. But I've digressed.

The preferred method of approach tonight is the Pitch Up One Arrival. Basically you just pitch up and see what happens. This tactical manoeuvre allows the pilot to ingress the landing zone in an unpredictable manner, (much like many African operations) thus exploiting the supposedly secured perimeter of the airfield in an attempt to avoid enemy surface-to-air-missiles and small arms fire. Or large arms fire, for that matter.

Personally, I wouldn't bet my tight white ass on that theory but we’ve forgotten how to do a normal approach and that's the real reason we fly it.
Speedbrake out and gear & flaps down through 15000, I gently ease the aircraft into a 60 degree right hand bank. This maneuver is called ‘looking out of the opposite window for the airport’ but you do have to be careful because it can dislodge peanuts from the throttle quadrant. Even worse, it might wake the engineer who is slumbering on the jump seat.

Lying to ATC, we ditch the minnie-mouse voiced yank chick on Balad and chop to approach. Still in cloud, with the 6-mile TCAS looking like one of those kaleidoscopes you had when you were a kid. Or a mathematical version of alphabet soup.

It's strong coffee effect appreciation time as I descend the agile Fokker to six thousand feet AGL on downwind, turning to smile for a couple more pics by the new flight attendant and emptying my mug in case of spills when I bend it in like Beckham. We get a visual on the runway at 0.7 dme overhead at 2000' still going down like a whore’s drawers just before we suddenly have to pull a 2G turn to avoid that $#&%ing balloon again. Now the fun starts. We chop to the trainee Iraqi in the tower whose job is it to take ninety seconds to tell us that we are cleared to land, having forgotten to call him through 4000 as usual because the numbers on the altimeter were a bit blurred still. The VSI needle has finally unpegged itself and the new hostie is now shaking like a constipated dog ****ting on a sheet of ice.

Ignoring the GPWS whose CB the engineer forgot to pull I grab a fistful of Rolls Royce and stabilize at 300’ still in a 45 deg bank on base, pulling back on the yoke just enough to hear the business-class pax start to grunt. Turning the aircraft onto the runway heading over brick one of 33R, the engineer finally wakes from his slumber. I flare and as soon as we roll out of the turn, I land. Some aeronautical genius coined this manoeuvre “Short Finals."

I look over at the F/O and he's getting his wallet out already – the whiskey is only $10 a litre here. Looking further back at the new hostie I can clearly see her face regaining a bit of colour again. In fact her cheeks are redder than Monica Lewinski’s knees. I wonder why but then notice the wet spot spreading around her feet. Finally, I glance at our steely-eyed Engineer. His eyebrows rise in unison as a grin forms on his face. I can tell he's thinking the same thing I am. Are we going to be able to diddle the fuel man again?

”Where do we find such stalwart comrades?” Naturally, and not at all surprisingly, I take the first turnoff at 90 knots, destroying all the crockery in the trolleys and deeply unimpressing the new hostie. That’s my chances out the window then. Bloody bumpy taxiways….. The comparatively small, 33 ton, bouncing cacophony of groans comes to a lurching stop with the radome less than one foot from the marshal’s nose. Let's see a Jumbo do that! We notice that he’s the one we suspect of pinching the cellphone last week so we turn the radar back on. Keeping one engine on because the APU is u/s, it's time to let the quivering pax unload themselves. As they finish staggering down the stairs I shoot down the back to see if they’ve left any English newspapers lying around, and of course, have a slash in the smelly chemical loo.

Walking down the crew entry steps savouring the fume-laden 46 degree celcius Baghdad air, dull thuds in the background, with my lowest-bidder Browning 9 mm stowed safely back in Johannesburg under my pillow, I look around and thank God, not Allah, I'm not on a Nigeria contract. Then I curse God that I'm not living in Sydney, flying for Virgin, lying on a beach 10 000 miles away with two chicks on each arm.

Knowing that once again I've cheated death-by-boredom, I ask myself, "What in the hell am I doing in this mess? Is it Duty, Honor, and Country?” No, it’s the double S&T allowance. Or the fact that the alternative is somewhere in West Africa. But now is not the time to derive the complexities of the superior cerebral properties of the human portion of the aviator-man-contractor model. It is however, soon time to get out of this ****-hole.

"Hey, is the fuel truck here yet?” “No, its still on the other side of the field filling those *^%*ing Hercs.” Meantime I curse the APU for the fortieth time today and try and signal the Iraqi ground-handlers through the thick black smoke emanating from their forklift to push the unserviceable pickup truck with the barely serviceable Copco starter on its back into position next to us, and then to get the pushback tug out to jumpstart the Copco so we can get the airstart we need...

God, I love this contract!

https://www.pprune.org/african-aviation/264780-pay-iraq.html#post3146360 (https://www.pprune.org/african-aviation/264780-pay-iraq.html#post3146360)

[geeup]

That was awesome!

Buy that man a beer 🍺

The art of manual flying is a dying skill in most jet operations

[Capn Bloggs]

Go the Pocket Rocket...:ok::ok:

Airbubba, you should put in the quote who wrote that. It's a classic!

[Airbubba]

Airbubba, you should put in the quote who wrote that. It's a classic!The F28 version of the war story was originally posted here in 2004 by AfricanSkies in the 'Welcome to Baghdad--Herky Story' thread as one of several attempts to mimic the C-130 tale.

His was the best in my opinion.

It was reposted by AfricanSkies again in 2007 in the thread I linked above.

The original PPRuNe 'Herky Story' thread is here:

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/129242-welcome-baghdad-herky-story.html

[Capn Bloggs]

Thanks AB.

[krismiler]

Had he done that in a Western airline with a load of passengers onboard at a European city he would have been locked up and rightly so. We don't know his background, training and experience but it is likely to have involved an airforce and combat approaches. The weather was clear, any accident would have been in the sea rather than a built up area and I'm sure the other crew members knew what they signed up for. We need to measure what he did with a different yardstick than the one used for a first world airline.

UNITA rebels in Angola were supplied by flights from South Africa which operated low level at night in turbine DC3s risking CFIT, ground fire and air attack which was much higher risk than a 360' turn on a clear day.

[Lazyload]

Flying in Africa was always a bit on the edge but we had some fun too. I learnt to spin in a 9000 hour Tomahawk right over the Muizenberg sewerage works, the geometry of which made it easy to count the turns. One Sunday morning as slf on an SAA 727, the captain asked us if we’d like “a scenic”. Sure! So he flew the entire sector- Port Elizabeth to Cape Town - over the beaches at 2000 ft. Yes, those were fun days and South African pilots are as good as you’ll get.

[The Fat Controller]

Correct decision with what was ahead.

Perfectly executed turn, good CRM and a safe landing, what's not to like about that ?

[Wycombe]

Love that the backing music features a certain Bruce Dickinson!

[emeritus]

Having around 11 years sitting in the LHS of the 72 I enjoyed watching a well executed manoeuvre in that clip. We all have basic flying skills but his are honed well above the average obviously.

[TWT]

Love that the backing music features a certain Bruce Dickinson!

No, it's 'Thunderstruck' by AC/DC

[Salusa]

Love that the backing music features a certain Bruce Dickinson!
Brian Johnson.

That's about the only thing I feel qualified to comment on this thread.

[Whenwe]

I did not like doing the spiral in the Herc, is too slow coming down and those anxious moments seemed awfully long to me.Flying in Africa and knowing the area, I (and others) preferred the low-level approach. It was always comforting to have the small noise foot print of the Herc; confirmed by observing the reaction, or not, of the animals as you fly over them.

Good old bad days, those were.

[Specaircrew]

All us ex MPA pilots can identify with that sort of orbit, good skills, Aunty Betty only let us do it at 200ft for training though.....manual flying with 2 engines shut down to save fuel.....happy days😊

[beardy]

Wonderful flying skills, I wonder why he elected to do that manoeuvre that way.
Some here seem to comment that not having passengers on board has a bearing on his decision making. It might, but why should it?

[rudestuff]

Bottom line: No rules were broken and he had fun. All he did was a 360 on final. Would it be appropriate everywhere? Obviously not, but anyone unsure of their own ability to fly a level turn should maybe ask for some retraining!

[BRUpax]

I wonder why he elected to do that manoeuvre that way.

Beardy, I think you will find that has already been explained several times in previous posts from those who know the area. I would also reiterate what a poster said which was that nothing in that video suggests that the entire orbit was made at 100ft. There is a large gap in the video and he may well have been at 200ft for most of that turn for all we know.

[Capt Fathom]

Can I suggest it is probably much easier to do a 360 at 100ft than it would be at say 500 or 1000ft.
At 500ft it would not be difficult to set up a high rate of descent (or climb).
At 100ft, and you’ll notice this in the video, you can maintain a ’constant distance’ from the water... because it is so close!

[beardy]

Beardy, I think you will find that has already been explained several times in previous posts from those who know the area. I would also reiterate what a poster said which was that nothing in that video suggests that the entire orbit was made at 100ft. There is a large gap in the video and he may well have been at 200ft for most of that turn for all we know.
Not so. Some have speculated about the ground threat, no one has given a date and confirmation that that is why he did it. It could very well be, we just don't know.

[Sleeve Wing]

Quite a few plusses/minuses about the relative merits of such a manoeuvre. Suffice it to say that those of us who learned to fly in the sixties/seventies are not the least surprised by the skill and awareness of a guy I would love to have flown with.
It is not surprising either that the ex-Navy, Truckie and Coastal Command contingent seem to find this a normal day in the office. We were trained to manoeuvre at low level, over the sea too, and be aware of the missile/small arms threat. In the past, I can remember coming back from one sortie on a dubious day, with salt spray all over the windshield. No sweat.

All this has changed since the reduction of ex-military retirees into the airline business. We are now expected to fly in aircraft that have little direct law control and flown by crews who will fly, well or otherwise, mainly to pay off their phenomenal training costs. Sound experience appears to be at a premium. All they really know is how to punch in the flight data, autopilot in at a 1000 and cruise for hours at 37000 feet glued to the screen, to finally Cat II it at the other end in gin clear conditions.
It will change again in the future when people think and realise that flying a proper aircraft like a 727 or a DC9 had such good manual handling characteristics to teach us our business.

[Sleeve Wing]

Btw, take a look at the photo on *17 of the C130 thread on "Where are they now ?" Capable hands.......

[Standby Scum]

Same LH Seat guy here:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PskS77toQOY

[Toruk Macto]

Some real skills , my guess ex military or crop duster , highly unlikely to have been a MPL .

[rog747]

He has very sharp creases in his very white smart shirts - no cowboy

Much better video here - hope you can all see it?
Or go to YouTube and watch it in widescreen there


https://youtu.be/pxZ3d7MNXSw


https://www.facebook.com/AeronewsGlobal/videos/2208946802738531/?t=9

[gearlever]

Same LH Seat guy here:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PskS77toQOY

What a cool guy, love it:)

[Wycombe]

Originally Posted by Wycombe https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=10633578#post10633578)
Love that the backing music features a certain Bruce Dickinson!
Brian Johnson.

That's about the only thing I feel qualified to comment on this thread.

Oh of course it is, but would have been much more relevant to have something from Bruce
(I think he did some hand-flying in a 72' in an episode of "Flying Heavy Metal")

[pulse1]

It doesn't detract from the flying skills but doesn't anyone else find it odd that this particular maneuver appears to be filmed from inside the cockpit and from the ground?

[sabenaboy]

It's simple:
- Any airline pilot who is NOT able to do that should not be in the cockpit.
- Any airline pilot who would do that with passengers in the back, should not be in that cockpit.

[Climb150]

If passengers think a maneuver of some description will stop them getting shot out of the sky, they will gladly let you do it.

[beardy]

It's simple:
- Any airline pilot who is NOT able to do that should not be in the cockpit.
- Any airline pilot who would do that with passengers in the back, should not be in that cockpit.
The presence of passengers is quite immaterial.

[Sleeve Wing]

It's simple:
- Any airline pilot who is NOT able to do that should not be in the cockpit.
- Any airline pilot who would do that with passengers in the back, should not be in that cockpit.

I think it's mentioned at the beginning of the thread that he's flying a freighter.
I feel that a captain of that calibre, if he had pax on board, he would probably have done it at a slightly higher altitude.
That means of course that he would start his second approach further out on finals .....if he felt that the sea traffic in the bay was harmless ........
Never give 'em a second chance to hit you !

LookingForaJob, aiming point markings ?? (Recommended touchdown area....) Oh, never mind. Think perspective !
Can I suggest that you don't get technically involved in something you don't understand ?

[Four Wings]

Been there...
In the mid 60s I used to fly regularly as a passenger on Aden Airways C47 (aka DC3) services in South Arabia (now Yemen). All dirt strips. They were mixed configuration, with removable seats, and always loaded to the gunwhales so seating v. cargo was always highly contentious.
I was the local Shell sales manager and used my privileged position as the sole supplier of fuel in the area to get a seat (the Aden Airways agent was also usually the Shell petrol station dealer).
On one occasion there was a real bust up at loading as all the seats were taken and a very angry Yemeni, in customary dress of futa, jambiya and .303 rifle tried to force his way on board, holding the cargo door so the steward couldn't close it. The pilot came down to help him, the stewrd pulled up the steps, the pilot slammed the door in place, went back to the cock[it and we took off.
But instead of climbing as usual, as soon as we had a couple of hundred feet under us he did a very hard turn, all the way round, till. 'Uh.uh. I thought .trouble a't'mill'.
Very,very low we lined up on the dirt strip, but I couldn't make out what was happening as we were still on full power it seemed. I was sitting up front and at over 100 knots and what felt like nought feet under us I suddenly saw the Yemeni flash under us. wildly waving his rifle but instinstively ducking as we passed over him.
So on to the next sector, probably a downwind at Lodar or some such.

[750XL]

Captain Niel Steyl, he's an interesting history in aviation. Google it

[OldnGrounded]

Captain Niel Steyl, he's an interesting history in aviation. Google it

Ah, that guy. Pilot for the Mark Thatcher-Simon Mann coup attempt in Equatorial Guinea. No wonder he's comfortable with that sort of flying.

[Less Hair]

From 2005 to 2009 he has been active right here at pprune it seems:
https://www.pprune.org/african-aviation/194791-1-time-baghdad.html

[robdean]

This former Executive Outcomes pilot has posted several such stimulating excerpts of interesting days in the office, eg Malakal &c:
Niel Steyl - YouTube (https://m.youtube.com/user/nielsteyl1861/videos)

[krismiler]

Executive Outcomes was a "private security" company which used B727s in Angola under the guise of Ibis Air to fly their employees around. Recruitment was mainly from former South African military personnel, though foreigners were also taken on. Captain Niel Steyl's training, experience and ability would certainly make him the right man for this kind of work, I would be quite happy to be sitting in the cabin with him upfront if I had to get somewhere in a war zone.

I think he would have enough sense not to pull a stunt like that in regular airline flying.

[foxile]

Seems all in a days work for him.

https://youtu.be/ZpntvQvOGHI

[JanetFlight]

Wow...he is a Master in late Go arounds followed by very sharp, tight and low 360's,,,,Rock on Captain ...check this one out \\m//

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpntvQvOGHI

[JanetFlight]

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/626x477/727_a_9f843f61ebaba72e53e6b7f75b65311c7d696fc9.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/866x521/727_c_bbd7007845698571d2f0128dbb9ea7b28fbb445f.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x702/727_b_0a5b2a43646591dd7e7a91defeb1d845f4a60b68.jpg
Someone said Ibis ;)

[krismiler]

A crop duster would have thought he was a pussy for staying so high. Any ag pilot in that position would have been able to stir up the water using the wingtip vortices and possible water skied the main wheels on the way in before popping up to 50' on short final.

[B772]

Many years ago I was a pax on a Aviogenex B737-200 scheduled service that did a 360 on final approach at an estimated 300 ft.

[ShyTorque]

I'm not a professional pilot BUT....how is that possible? I mean, no PAPIs or aiming point makings!

Sign of the times?

[krismiler]

This is how to do a low flypast.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igF1X48ddWA

[JanetFlight]

Still love this one here for all eternity <3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dK5VOhKk8s

[Check Airman]

It's simple:
- Any airline pilot who is NOT able to do that should not be in the cockpit.
- Any airline pilot who would do that with passengers in the back, should not be in that cockpit.

What does the presence or absence of pax have to do with it? Is the manoeuvre safe or not?

[ATC Watcher]

What does the presence or absence of pax have to do with it? Is the manoeuvre safe or not?
No difference I agree, and having learned the local situation there by now, making a 360 at 100ft instead of higher or worse a go around above land/city, yes, this was definitively a safer option .. with or without pax .
Making a 360 with 30 degr bank at 100ft or 500ft is the same manoeuvre , the aircraft does not behave differently , as long as you have wingtip clearance you can even do it lower.. because the aim here was I believe to avoid being shot at ...

[Rarife]

Some real skills , my guess ex military or crop duster , highly unlikely to have been a MPL .

Is not MPL quite a new thing? Why is everyone who is not flying for 40 years considered to be super bad pilot here? This is getting out of hand.

[beardy]

No difference I agree, and having learned the local situation there by now, making a 360 at 100ft instead of higher or worse a go around above land/city, yes, this was definitively a safer option .. with or without pax .
Making a 360 with 30 degr bank at 100ft or 500ft is the same manoeuvre , the aircraft does not behave differently , as long as you have wingtip clearance you can even do it lower.. because the aim here was I believe to avoid being shot at ...
We do not know that not being shot at was the aim. It's an assumption.

[nolimitholdem]

Is not MPL quite a new thing? Why is everyone who is not flying for 40 years considered to be super bad pilot here? This is getting out of hand.

Your multiple posts on the same theme make you seem a tad defensive. Relax.

There are still some good pilots flying, this video just celebrates an era when it was more the norm than the exception to be able to capably fly a machine manually.

[Auxtank]

We do not know that not being shot at was the aim. It's an assumption.

Given the locale is a bloody good one. ;)

[FlightDetent]

And this thread will be written in the Bibliography of PPRuNe as The Great Masturbation Topic, Slightly Myopic.

[Council Van]

Still love this one here for all eternity <3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dK5VOhKk8s
I have always wondered how many feet that wing top was above the ground, how much more angle of bank they could have got away with and if they did that on purpose or slightly miss judged that manoeuvre bearing in mind how hard it is to see the wingtip in a swept wing aircraft.

[OldnGrounded]

And this thread will be written in the Bibliography of PPRuNe as The Great Masturbation Topic, Slightly Myopic.

Masturbation with self-congratulation. There oughtta be a word for that. 😎

[VR-HFX]

Perfectly safe. Easier to do in a prop than in a 727. Used to do it on the P3.

[Raymond Dome]

Brilliant! The snowflakes of the magenta line might be getting their panties in a wad, but this guy can at least fly the aeroplane.

[Slow and curious]

Masturbation with self-congratulation. There oughtta be a word for that. 😎
Happy end?

[Herod]

Narcissurbation?

[OldnGrounded]

Narcissurbation?

Herod wins the Internet!

[Auxtank]

Herod wins the Internet!

He certainly does...


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/841x300/hjkdsb_b9d81e5b4f770108147b35c2177a4049117c651d.jpg

[Airbubba]

From the 'Cargo Pilots in a Boeing' airshow department at a collegiate aviation safety event earlier this year in Janesville, Wisconsin. They went down below 50 feet radar altitude with the wheels up on the low pass.

Both pilots got fired. :eek:

And the cockpit video taken by the jumpseat rider has been taken down from YouTube.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1242x1614/img_2953_ff918d8c2b4f25369c088435b4198ae11ac65f53.png
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1242x1478/img_2954_2_e3f59573b5b0b26f2821f0b5fc4c84424a585929.png

[ATC Watcher]

Both pilots got fired. https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/eek.gif
Life is unfair , But there is I think a big difference between bringing a 757 so low only to impress a crowd , possibly by a crew that spent the last 15 years or so only making ILS approaches and/or connecting AP when passing 1000ft on the climb., and a South African bush pilot doing visuals since 40 years trying to avoid being possibly shot at.

[hunterboy]

At the risk of sounding critical.... I did wonder why the pilot wouldn’t climb say another 100 feet to give himself a greater margin of safety. I’m sure we could all do a 360 @ 100 feet, or maybe even 75, but why erode your margins? If SAMS are such a threat, I would have thought RPG’s that are more plentiful would be a greater threat?
*caveat* I have never operated in a war zone ,and so am asking the questions for information purposes.

[beardy]

The lower one is over the sea the closer one is to birds.

[YRP]

Some years ago...


Cool Guys, I presume you did report the author to the analogy police at the time? 😎

[FlightDetent]

nice one, beardy.
----
For information purposes :) did they arrive for the first approach flat at 100 feet, ekranoplan style?

FWIW, solen from a post above I wouldn't bet my pink ass on that theory but the approach is fun as hell and that's the real reason we fly it.

[what next]

The lower one is over the sea the closer one is to birds.

If I remember correctly Capt. Sullenberger's Airbus flew through that flock of geese at around 3000ft... That guy here was obviously perfectly able to fly at 100ft, so why climb to where the Canada Geese will bring him down ;)

[beardy]

If I remember correctly Capt. Sullenberger's Airbus flew through that flock of geese at around 3000ft... That guy here was obviously perfectly able to fly at 100ft, so why climb to where the Canada Geese will bring him down ;)
That would be interesting, Canada Geese at Mogadishu. Other birds (migratory and non-migratory), including Pelicans, are available.

[paddyboy]

Sign of the times?

So very true and how sad/worrying is that?

Within three decades I predict we'll be in the same postion on our roads I suspect.

The future isn't bright, it's automated...

[Chronic Snoozer]

As any navy pilot would tell you, it is very very easy to accidentally fly into the sea, even in perfect visual conditions. 360 at 100' in a 727, no HUD - one moments inattention or look inside and it's over.

HUD monkey!

[Toruk Macto]

There are many who can do a 360 at 100 ft but very few with the gonads to do it ( especially in a 3 eng airliner ) That’s what’s impressive ..

[CDRW]

This is how to do a low flypast.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igF1X48ddWA
Ahhhh DTs fly past...surprised we haven't seen the Cathay delivery flight. Poor old IW got the chop for that. And oddly enough the pushback for all these "manoeuvres" came from ex military pilots who lamented the fact that " those pilots had not been trained" where as they had....

Now if those guys had been weaving through the hills of Scotland, I would say they had a point . But a fly past!

[krismiler]

At least DT didn't have any of the company's directors onboard at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Bp2V-rEnsY

[NISHTA]

Here is another video of Captain Steyl’s African cargo flying and post flight relaxing...


https://youtu.be/SzK153FQg1Q

[ATC Watcher]

Here is another video of Captain Steyl’s African cargo flying and post flight relaxing...
YouTube.com/watch?v=SzK153FQg1Q

The bike ride in the end is far more unsafe than the 360 at 100ft :E

[SMT Member]

15 years ago, or thereabouts, I was occupying the jumpseat on an A300 freighter going into Baghdad which, at that time, was a rather unpleasant area to be overflying in a civilian aircraft. If I remember correctly, the approach was made from 10.000 ft fully configured, then dive for the numbers. As we started the descent the flaps had not come all the way out yet which, despite having the engines in idle, resulted in the airspeed creeping upwards. As we crossed the piano keys the skipper called for a go-around an took controls. I was expecting an "up we go, position for another approach from 10K feet" scenario, but that didn't happen. Oh no. We tracked the runway at around 100 foot and, nearing the end, entered a steep left-hand bank going behind (and below the cab of) the tower, to track the opposite runway. Aunt Betty was moaning loudly (bank angle, pull up, too low - terrain; the whole nine yards) and, from the vantage point of a raised jump seat behind the skipper, it felt like the ground couldn't have been more than an uncomfortably low number of meters away from the wingtip. We reached the end of the parallel runway and did another 180 to the left, still at 100ft. Touched down and taxied to the ramp for unloading.

Sometimes situation dictate embracing techniques and procedures that are about as far removed from a 10 mile ILS descent as you can imagine. But if that's all you've done in your professional life, it makes perfectly sense why some are baulking at the idea. At the end of the day it's down to skills and training. If you operate in an environment where maximum use of automatics is SOP, then this would be akin to suicide. But if you operate at an airline which gives you all the room you want to take tactical decisions which suits the environment, then you're quite comfortable switching off A/P, A/T and FD at 10.000 ft on a sunny day flying into a not too busy airport. Sadly, a large and growing number of airline have all but banned manual flying above 500ft AGL.

[Mk 1]

At the risk of sounding critical.... I did wonder why the pilot wouldn’t climb say another 100 feet to give himself a greater margin of safety. I’m sure we could all do a 360 @ 100 feet, or maybe even 75, but why erode your margins? If SAMS are such a threat, I would have thought RPG’s that are more plentiful would be a greater threat?
*caveat* I have never operated in a war zone ,and so am asking the questions for information purposes.

RPG's are unguided - plentiful but unguided. Low probability of a hit - not designed for the task. SAM's on the other hand, have a much greater range, and are guided (usually heat seeking), they are a far more deadly threat.

[bunk exceeder]

There was a quick woop woop. Might have been my limit. But that was cool.

[Retired DC9 driver]

It will change again in the future when people think and realize that flying a proper aircraft like a 727 or a DC9 had such good manual handling characteristics to teach us our business.
I think part of that was , the DC-9-32s I flew, we also learned to glance at the fast/slow "doughnut" or AOA display. At least I did; say short final into LGA for 31..Same later when I transitioned to the B-767, another enjoyable aircraft to hand fly.

Actually the Airbus, a light 319 in particular will handle quite nicely. Autopilot off, Flight Directors off, Speed push..One night, into ORD, for 10L I think, Aeroflot landed ahead of us, and stopped on the runway. Tower quickly said (at about 300 AGL) "A..#### can you accept a sidestep to 9R?" I said sure."Cleared to land.09R." 3 items above, bank left, bank right line up on new runway. F/O looked a bit surprised, and I didn't have time to brief it.

[ferry pilot]

When that airplane and that skipper were a lot younger this would not have raised an eyebrow anywhere in the industry. He flies like that because he flies like that. There was a time when we all did. Because we had to. Bush flying will always be there to some degree, but it has ceased to be the training ground it once was for airline pilots, and modern navigation and approach aids have all but eliminated the need for stick and ruddering a big airplane close to the ground without a runway under it. Those days, and those hard won skills are never coming back because there is so little need for night circling approaches, offsets and timed two seventys hardly anyone knows what they are anymore. The game has changed, and very much for the better in my opinion. Those in the front seats today don’t need to kick the thing around. They need to outsmart it.

[Lazyload]

Guys don’t you think this thread has to be the most entertaining we have read on PPRuNe for quite a while? The op’s intention was to chastise bad practice but instead we’ve got a real feel for African flying and seat of the pants raw skill. Its great to see everyone rallying up and posting clips and anecdotes. We’re all a bit jaded with pickle forks and maxes. Flying has to be more fun than punching in a route in the fms.

[Brian Pern]

Could not agree more. There is a real lack of old fashioned skills these days. A few years ago, we lost our FMC in mid flight, the inexperienced FO wanted to ask for vectors, I simply switched to VOR and followed it as you do....ATC were a bit supprised as well. Sadly we are now all magenta line followers

[beardy]

Guys don’t you think this thread has to be the most entertaining we have read on PPRuNe for quite a while? The op’s intention was to chastise bad practice but instead we’ve got a real feel for African flying and seat of the pants raw skill. Its great to see everyone rallying up and posting clips and anecdotes. We’re all a bit jaded with pickle forks and maxes. Flying has to be more fun than punching in a route in the fms.
People who are attracted to flying are natural thrill seekers. The true skill in flying is to make even the most challenging situation routine and seemingly boring. And therein lies the problem.

[CDRW]

Well put Layload.
The skills I learnt flying light twins around Southern Africa for ten years WITHOUT a wx radar or GPS have been carried through and still used to this day ( now over 17 yrs on the 777). One such skill - to the horror of some - is to look out the window!

[Whenwe]

Guys don’t you think this thread has to be the most entertaining we have read on PPRuNe for quite a while?

Agree.
I actually feel at home here; I can remember checking my drift through the drift sight on the DC3.

[blind pew]

First thing that struck me was the clean pressed shirts that they all were wearing. Some of our modern lot look as though theyve slept in theirs.
Approach he was working in the trim with his thumb..nice..proper flare rather than plonking it on and then doing his own reverse.
Did a short wet lease with Air Afrique...nothing like VNE by 3,000ft.

[Old King Coal]

Someone above mentioned the use of a HUD... I would just point out that that piece of electronic crap bears a lot of responsibility for the crash of FZ981 (read the report) and, personally, I'm no fan of the HUD... on a CAVOK day a look out of the window coupled with some good old-fashioned stick & rudder skills is just as good (if not better) than anything the HUD can provide.... e,g, if you follow the HUD ever so accurately the blasted thing will have you landing at or beyond the end of the touchdown zone... whereas I want to land on the numbers and can do it every time (without recourse to any HUD nonsense) simply by looking out of the window coupled with +6,000 jet landings in the experience bag... but I guess the button pushing land-o-matic generation need all the electronic help they can get?!

[bunk exceeder]

And the winner is.... The Frys 747SP. Miramar a few years ago. Watch the final pass.

https://youtu.be/08G4z63PShc

At least for transport category. TAP is a very close second. If not tied for first.

[601]

Some of our modern lot look as though theyve slept in theirs.

Will the QF Sunrise aircraft have laundry facilities on board?

The skills I learnt flying light twins around Southern Africa

Did you have to learn the fine skill of DME Homing in SA?

[Callsign Kilo]

A bit of willy waving has seemingly crept into this thread now. The stick & rudder brigade are out to chastise the children of the magenta. The fact of the matter is, if you really want to fly an orbit at 100’ in a jet transport nowadays then you’re confined to clapped out freight luggers in salubrious places like Somalia. It’s undoubtably a fine display of hand flying in a day and age where the art appears lost. Anyway, I’m quite confident that I could pole about in my 70t+ crate however I don’t consider my ability to do so as a extension of my man hood. Pilots and their universal ability to talk about how wonderful they are appears alive and well in abundance

[OldnGrounded]

A bit of willy waving has seemingly crept into this thread now.

Herod nailed it, in one brilliant, original word, in post #139.

https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=10634393

[Maninthebar]

Someone above mentioned the use of a HUD... I would just point out that that piece of electronic crap bears a lot of responsibility for the crash of FZ981 (read the report) and, personally, I'm no fan of the HUD... on a CAVOK day a look out of the window coupled with some good old-fashioned stick & rudder skills is just as good (if not better) than anything the HUD can provide..

The accident to FZ981 did not occur in CAVOK.

The poor souls flying FZ981 may not have made good use of the HUD, or may have been let down by its implementation but bringing that into this conversation seems inappropriate to me

[The Range]

Was that AC/DC music you can hear on the video actually in the cockpit or it's just on the video?
I think it fits great there.

[Auxtank]

Was that AC/DC music you can hear on the video actually in the cockpit or it's just on the video?
I think it fits great there.

AC/DC is a great fit for the activities being carried out here but it's definitely added "in the edit" as supposed to on the flight deck.

[midnight cruiser]

Pilots and their universal ability to talk about how wonderful they are appears alive and well in abundance Folks who fall over themselves to try and demonstrate their superiority, endlessly pestering to hand fly departures in TMAs or to do raw data ILSs, or getting a hard-on about some guy doing a 360 without crashing into the terrain! - 'meh' - but when they're faced with one of the few actual tests of real stick and rudder skills in our job - a gusty crosswind landing, or even an accurate landing at the right spot at the right speed - and their flying usually gets real ragged, verging on alarming - that don't impress me so much! Landing skills do seem to be in a worrying negative tend.

[Lilaccruiser]

Thanks everyone for generating such a hugely entertaining thread! Pprune is a secret fascination of mine not only for the deep technical knowledge and insight into fascinating topics on display, but also for the humour, ridiculousness and general humanity of the contributions. I once flew a Chipmunk for 10 minutes (or at least I thought I did) under very close control somewhere above Honington, but alas that is the total extent of my flying career. But like many of us self loading types, I admire you daredevil pilot types deeply. So, there was I, in a bar in Istanbul this weekend with my two grown up sons, neither of whom has any particular interest in your world, showing them the initial two videos from this thread and then explaining the way in which the thread, by sheer force of argument and deft marshalling of the facts by several contributors,, moved from horror and condemnation to delight and appreciation of the skills on display. And then moved into the realm of high comedy and satire with the two Baghdad posts. My lads completely got it just as I had,

Bravo pprunesters, you’ve created a work of art.

[CDRW]

Folks who fall over themselves to try and demonstrate their superiority, endlessly pestering to hand fly departures in TMAs or to do raw data ILSs, or getting a hard-on about some guy doing a 360 without crashing into the terrain! - 'meh' - but when they're faced with one of the few actual tests of real stick and rudder skills in our job - a gusty crosswind landing, or even an accurate landing at the right spot at the right speed - and their flying usually gets real ragged, verging on alarming - that don't impress me so much!
MC
So what does impress you much?
To get the landing in the right spot at the right speed in gusty crosswind conditions is easy as .....pie.
Auto land.!
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/800x533/img_0876_8711b63e738bf19fb40f81b335d4ea894828dabd.jpg

[OldLurker]

Up tp a point ... autoland confused by ILS interference
Incident: Singapore B773 at Munich on Nov 3rd 2011, runway excursion (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=445873f3)

[ATC Watcher]

We could open a separate thread on autolands, especially those done on CAVOK or CAT1 ( like the SIA above) where the ILS signal is not protected . I understand some airlines having ordered the Max were considering making autoland mandatory on that type regardless of Wx conditions to save on engines and tyres..Maybe now their confidence in Boeing electronics driving the flight controls might have eroded somewhat those plans.

Back to flying an airliner at 100ft, , since w are sharing old stories, I went to Narssasuaq a few times in the early 90s where the easiest route from Europe was Icelandair which used a good old 727-100 to do that , as if I remember correctly (waiting to be corrected) that type could take up to 35 Kts tail wind. which was a bonus since there is a glacier at the end of the fjord making mandatory landings and take off in opposite directions.
On clear Summer days one of the thrills of that flight was getting down to 500ft above the ice , looking for the glacier entrance and go down to 100-200 ft in the valley for about 20 NM, overfly the runway, teardrop over the fjord and land on the numbers. The pax loved it and complained when it could not be done . The only drawback was hearing the constant bells and other Woops woops in the cabin , since the cockpit door was wide open in those days .

[rog747]

I really enjoyed this thread - Another impressive piece of flying was the (Lady Capt?) who landed her Thomson 757 in 40kts+ crosswinds in a huge storm last year at the aircraft carrier type strip at Bristol UK.

[t-bag]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=209avJVxLuk

[Dopsonj]

Continuing the Africa theme,

Customer of mine used to run/operate Africa One, here's a video his son took (you can hear the son in the video)

DC10 - Lowest pass starts around 1m25.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJz9xdWX6ZY

[srjumbo747]

Could not agree more. There is a real lack of old fashioned skills these days. A few years ago, we lost our FMC in mid flight, the inexperienced FO wanted to ask for vectors, I simply switched to VOR and followed it as you do....ATC were a bit supprised as well. Sadly we are now all magenta line followers
I agree the flying skills aren’t what they used to be in some parts of aviation but what was the safest option? Getting vectors from ATC or showing the FO how good you are?
Free up mental capacity and lessen the load in the flight deck!

[Bend alot]

I agree the flying skills aren’t what they used to be in some parts of aviation but what was the safest option? Getting vectors from ATC or showing the FO how good you are?
Free up mental capacity and lessen the load in the flight deck!
When the lightly jumped the slot - ATC was already behind the 8 ball (common in stress areas of the World) so getting a vector will take some time.

You seem to think the FO was getting a waving show from captain and not part of the manoeuvre - it seems the FO called the lighty on runway and not a go-around call.

The guy was as cool as ice - it was not a stunt.

[beardy]

I agree the flying skills aren’t what they used to be in some parts of aviation but what was the safest option? Getting vectors from ATC or showing the FO how good you are?
Free up mental capacity and lessen the load in the flight deck!
I agree with you all the way. But the spotters who seem to populate this thread don't want to hear the voice of common sense and experience.
I know it's an old adage, but worth repeating :
The exceptional pilot uses his exceptional judgement to avoid situations where he has to rely on his exceptional skills.
That does not mean not doing 'interesting' things, it means being prepared for eventualities, including getting your spacing right behind the aircraft ahead.

[slfool]

I really enjoyed this thread - Another impressive piece of flying was the (Lady Capt?) who landed her Thomson 757 in 40kts+ crosswinds in a huge storm last year at the aircraft carrier type strip at Bristol UK.

TUI 757 flown by Captain Brenda Riepsaame Wassink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPn3MBNt7Rc

[beardy]

Continuing the Africa theme,

Customer of mine used to run/operate Africa One, here's a video his son took (you can hear the son in the video)

DC10 - Lowest pass starts around 1m25.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJz9xdWX6ZY
What a lot of birds about! 🐦

[Retired DC9 driver]

CDRW wrote,
The skills I learnt flying light twins around Southern Africa for ten years WITHOUT a wx radar or GPS have been carried through and still used to this day

I started flying on floats, in Northern Canada. Later flew light twins, around the Game Parks in Kenya for 2 years, based in Mombasa, and Malindi. Few navaids, just tune in the VOK radio station in Nairobi. Landing on small strips in the Masai Mara, one often had to make a very low pass over a runway, to clear the migrating Wildebeest and Topis, then teardrop back to land quickly. Some DC-3 flying too, out of Nairobi Wilson. T-Bag, the Captain who checked me out on the DC-3 had flown the VC-10 with East African Airways...

[The Range]

I agree the flying skills aren’t what they used to be in some parts of aviation but what was the safest option? Getting vectors from ATC or showing the FO how good you are?
Free up mental capacity and lessen the load in the flight deck!
What's so dangerous about dialing a VOR and following it? OMG!
And why do you have to bother the controller with that.
The FO should know how to navigate like that.

[Check Airman]

I agree the flying skills aren’t what they used to be in some parts of aviation but what was the safest option? Getting vectors from ATC or showing the FO how good you are?
Free up mental capacity and lessen the load in the flight deck!

If navigating using conventional navigation is too heavy a load to bear, I’d suggest the FO shouldn’t have been in the cockpit.

I recently heard a story of a CA berating the FO for waiting until the flaps were up before calling for the AP. The captain cited the increased workload that he (the CA) endured. That captain wouldn’t do too well at my company!

[A350HK]

Some real piloting skills shown right there!

[srjumbo747]

What's so dangerous about dialing a VOR and following it? OMG!
And why do you have to bother the controller with that.
The FO should know how to navigate like that.
For the non pilots, nowadays we don’t even have paper charts in the flight deck! SHOCK, HORROR!
To fly VOR to VOR would take quite a bit of effort. Finding frequencies, setting the aircraft up to fly VOR to VOR, seeing exactly where you are, adds to the cockpit workload. Why not pass the workload on to ATC.
Nowadays, we can even make an approach without NBD, VOR or ILS. Amazing! We can fly an RNAV approach. I won’t go into the finer details but if there’s a system degradation you ask for vectors immediately from ATC!
Unbelievable eh?
PS The guy in the video did an amazing job. Loved it!!

[Capi_Cafre']

TUI 757 flown by Captain Brenda Riepsaame Wassink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPn3MBNt7Rc

Does the 75 lack the rudder authority to align with the runway at its crosswind limit? That looked like a lot of side load on the main gear at touchdown.

[midnight cruiser]

Does the 75 lack the rudder authority to align with the runway at its crosswind limit? That looked like a lot of side load on the main gear at touchdown. That was my reaction too - just flying it on sideways works ok on a wet runway, but not ok on a dry one - huge side loads on the gear and tends to lift the upwind wing, which can be the start of a lurching, messy roll out. Quite nice landing for the conditions, but IMHO, not particularly an example of superior stick and rudder skills a propos the subject.

[beardy]

That was my reaction too - just flying it on sideways works ok on a wet runway, but not ok on a dry one - huge side loads on the gear and tends to lift the upwind wing, which can be the start of a lurching, messy roll out. Quite nice landing for the conditions, but IMHO, not particularly an example of superior stick and rudder skills a propos the subject.
Once the drift disappears the aircraft is not on the centreline, it is lined up on the downwind part of the runway probably because the cockpit was lined up on the centreline which isn't the best idea in a crosswind.
Not kicking off the drift was standard F4 Phantom technique because it had such strong landing gear. Horses for courses.

[medod]

That was my reaction too - just flying it on sideways works ok on a wet runway, but not ok on a dry one

Runway was wet.

[beardy]

Runway was wet.
So all you get is scrubbed tyres and just a bit less torque on the main legs and whiplash in the rear cabin. And being wet more of a risk of drifting to the, now closer, side of the runway.
This was a nicely controlled approach (although we don't know what the speed control was like) if a little off the centreline, followed by an arrival.

[slowjet]

Back to thread, I guess as an old school real pilot as opposed to the current world of the magenta line button pushers, the guy in discussion probably did "free up mental capacity"and "lighten the load" by hand flying . Did a splendid & enviable job. That kind of displayed skill is no longer required in the modern airline world where you don't disconnect the autopilot (flight controls remain connected to the Flight Control Computers) and "throttles" are dummy sticks for moving in and out of detents. I still feel safer behind the ole boys who find it easier to knock everything out and skillfully, without any effort, handfly out of trouble.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Back to thread, I guess as an old school real pilot as opposed to the current world of the magenta line button pushers, the guy in discussion.........................
‘Twas a Lady driver!
Captain Brenda Reipsaamie Wessink I think see post 188.
David

[charlies angel]

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowjet https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/627747-cargo-jet-makes-360-100-a-post10637115.html#post10637115)
Back to thread, I guess as an old school real pilot as opposed to the current world of the magenta line button pushers, the guy in discussion.........................


‘Twas a Lady driver!
Captain Brenda Reipsaamie Wessink I think see post 188.
David

Looks like a grey haired South African bloke to me.

[Capi_Cafre']

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowjet https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/627747-cargo-jet-makes-360-100-a-post10637115.html#post10637115)
Back to thread, I guess as an old school real pilot as opposed to the current world of the magenta line button pushers, the guy in discussion.........................


‘Twas a Lady driver!
Captain Brenda Reipsaamie Wessink I think see post 188.
David

Looks like a grey haired South African bloke to me.

That's because this thread can be added to the list of things that have drifted from the centerline....

[JamesT73J]

The captain seems to have lived a very interesting life. Long experience in 727.
Some years ago he spent nearly 18/12 in a Zimbabwe prison after a 727 flight to Equatorial Guinea was interrupted.
The coup attempt? That was a mess. They were stitched up if memory serves.

[b730]

I'm not a professional pilot BUT....how is that possible? I mean, no PAPIs or aiming point makings!

Not required for a visual approach.

[OldnGrounded]

The coup attempt? That was a mess. They were stitched up if memory serves.

Well, I guess that depends upon which "they" we're talking about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Equatorial_Guinea_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt

[750XL]

https://youtu.be/Kju6_EwQjVM

Interesting video into the coup attempt, if you do some research on Simon Mann!

They all knew what they were up to and all took the time for it

[Peter Fanelli]

Did you have to learn the fine skill of DME Homing in SA?

Mention that to most pilots and they'll tell you it can't be done.

[krismiler]

I can’t think of anywhere else in the world besides Australia, where a DME was installed without being paired with some sort of beacon. DME homing died off IIRC in the late 1990s.

Now a lost black art unless anyone still has a copy of the procedure with the heading and timings.

[601]

Now a lost black art unless anyone still has a copy of the procedure with the heading and timings.

Or burned into our fading memory.
Throwing in limited panel and one engine out made for some interesting IR renewals.

[Whenwe]

And waiting for the one hydraulic pump to raise the gear during go-around on DC3........

601 are you ex Rhodesia?

[fdr]

The captain seems to have lived a very interesting life. Long experience in 727.
Some years ago he spent nearly 18/12 in a Zimbabwe prison after a 727 flight to Equatorial Guinea was interrupted.

Are we sure that this is the same poor sod that got called up to replace another pilot on that flight? The history of that particular aircraft still makes interesting reading.

For doing circling at low level, the 72 is one of the nicer Boeings to fly. The Mog isn't LAX, and these guys were flying easily within their capabilities.

[750XL]

Are we sure that this is the same poor sod that got called up to replace another pilot on that flight? The history of that particular aircraft still makes interesting reading.

He was flying for, and employed by, Executive Outcomes, who flew around Africa as mercenaries with 2 x 727's. Think we can all say with some certainty he knew what he was upto!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Outcomes

[Mora34]

Does the 75 lack the rudder authority to align with the runway at its crosswind limit? That looked like a lot of side load on the main gear at touchdown.

No crab angle limit on the 737 on a wet runway.

[FalconFan]

I can’t think of anywhere else in the world besides Australia, where a DME was installed without being paired with some sort of beacon. DME homing died off IIRC in the late 1990s.

Now a lost black art unless anyone still has a copy of the procedure with the heading and timings.




See Appendix A here for DME Homing procedure:
www dot airwaysmuseum dot com/DME%20Ops%20Notes dot htm
(system won't let me post the URL directly)

[CurtainTwitcher]

See Appendix A here for DME Homing procedure:
www dot airwaysmuseum dot com/DME%20Ops%20Notes dot htm
(system won't let me post the URL directly)
Direct link for you: Operational Notes on Distance Measuring Equipment (http://www.airwaysmuseum.com/DME%20Ops%20Notes.htm)

[Ridger]

Amazing old school handling skills. Of course, if he'd spanked it in then I'm sure the same videos would then be used to illustrate how reckless the pilot was and how it was only a matter of time...

[Airbubba]

Some cultures seem to thrive on procedural complexity. ;)

From the link posted above:

HOMING PROCEDURE

"30 Degree and Rate of Closure Method"

1 - Select and identify the D.M.E. beacon.
2 - Fly a constant course and note whether the distance indication remains CONSTANT, is INCREASING or is DECREASING.
3 - If the distance indication is CONSTANT then the relative bearing of the station is 90 degrees to the left or right of the aircraft.
4 - If the distance indication is INCREASING then turn 180 degrees to a new heading which will then give a DECREASE in distance indication.
5 - When a heading which gives a DECREASE in distance, note the RATE OF CLOSURE - (e.g., 5 miles in 2 mins. 10 secs.) - see Notes.
6 - Turn 30 degrees LEFT and again note the RATE OF CLOSURE.
Then either:
7 - If the RATE OF CLOSURE has INCREASED then turn another 30 degrees LEFT and note the new RATE OF CLOSURE. Now bracket the course which gives the highest RATE OF CLOSURE in order to find the course on which MAXIMUM RATE OF CLOSURE CAN BE OBTAINED.
or
8 - If the RATE OF CLOSURE has decreased (after Step 6) then turn 60 degrees RIGHT and note the new RATE OF CLOSURE. Now bracket the new course in order to find the course on which MAXIMUM RATE OF CLOSURE can be obtained.
9 - Having determined the course on which to fly, make frequent checks of the RATE OF CLOSURE. If the RATE OF CLOSURE remains CONSTANT maintain the heading until over the beacon - if the RATE OF CLOSURE decreases then make small alterations, e.g., 10 to 15 degrees to the heading in an endeavour to bracket the heading on which a constant RATE OF CLOSURE can be obtained.
10 - If the track made good is not in fact the direct track to the beacon then, when abeam the beacon, i.e., when the distance indication ceases to decrease and then increases, turn 90 degrees to proceed to the beacon - if the turn is not in the correct sense then continue the turn another 180 degrees in the same direction as the original turn.

NOTES
(i) If on any course the rate of closure is such to indicate a closing speed approximately the same as the T.A.S. and provided that as the aircraft proceeds further the rate of closure remains relatively constant, it is advisable to hold the course being flown until either over the top or abeam the D.M.E. beacon.
(ii) If on any course the rate of closure is obviously very slow then do not wait to measure a fixed change in distance but turn 30 degrees left and proceed in accordance with Step 6.
(iii) When the rate of closure is being determined it is desirable to measure a precise distance between two calibration marks on the D.M.E. indicator and measure the time in minutes and seconds, and then compare the times taken for similar distances. If, however, the distance indication appears constant then the course should be held for, say, one minute and note made of the distance covered. When using the X10 scale it should be remembered that if the indicator is watched only for a matter of seconds a rate of closure of one mile per minute will not result in an obvious pointer movement. Pilots should guard against assuming a constant distance indication without observing the indicator for at least one minute.
(iv) During homing procedures, when within 10 miles of the D.M.E. beacon, it is suggested that the course being flown should be continued until either over the top or abeam the D.M.E. beacon. This will assist in orientation prior to commencing descent.
(v) When on a course that originally gave a reasonable rate of closure it is observed that the rate of closure is decreasing, then "bracketing" may be employed to find a more satisfactory course. When bracketing, if a turn of 15 degrees is made and it is in the wrong direction then a turn of at least 30 degrees in the opposite direction should be made. Turns of less than 10 degrees will not result in an obvious change of rate of closure.
(vi) It has been proved theoretically that in drift conditions it is possible to obtain the maximum rate of closure when flying on a course other then the course which gives a direct track towards the D.M.E. beacon. However, this very slight increase in rate of closure is not pronounced and as the aircraft proceeds further towards the beacon the rate of closure will decrease, whereas if the aeroplane is tracking towards the beacon the rate of closure will remain constant.
(vii) It will be found in practice that after the initial 30 degree turn, the problem of orientation becomes simply a matter of turning the aeroplane to a heading which gives a reasonable rate of closure and then bracketing, initially with turns of 15 degrees, to obtain the course which gives maximum rate of closure.
(viii) It is desirable, to assist in orientation, that all turns should be made to the LEFT unless it is apparent that such a turn is in the wrong sense. This procedure will prevent confusion when trying to remember the last direction turned.

[Lost on the Tundra]

Some cultures seem to thrive on procedural complexity. ;)

From the link posted above:


The cornfields Ted, the cornfields!

[megle2]

When we, I’m guessing 601 will confirm a “no “