Private Flight To Be Banned.

[Sunfish]

Federal Government sources have indicated that the use of privately owned aircraft will be drastically restricted under foreshadowed amendments to the civil aviation act. “The restrictions are the first step in the Governments response to climate change as well as an admission of the enormous cost burdens private aircraft inflict on the community” an anonymous treasury source said.

Speaking at a private dinner, the Minister For Transport catalogued the deeply harmful effects of private aircraft use. “First, there are the totally avoidable greenhouse gas emissions from these toys of the rich”, “then there is their use by criminals transporting illegal drugs and child pornography”, “furthermore, there is the ever present risk to regular public transport aircraft, air ambulance and similar public services, not to mention the RAAF defenders of our democratic heritage from the ever present threat of collision with rich silvertails and criminals gadding about for no good reason in Australian airspace.” She said. “the costs to Airlines and the RAAF of avoiding crashing into these private flying hoons are considerable and add to the cost of airline tickets and the defence budget” She said.

In addition the Minister reminded guests of the billions of dollars locked up in regional airports, as she called them “playgrounds of the rich” and foreshadowed further relaxation of rules governing commercial developments of airport land. It is understood that agricultural, medical, remote area and community service flights will be exempted from the ban under a tightly regulated individual permit system.

“As a Government, we are serious about climate change, crime and community values, “ she said. “That is why we are being proactive in consigning private flight to the dustbin of history”.

......That is what you face. You have no answer because you refuse to believe your problems aren’t with CASA, they are with the politicians. ...And you need a political response otherwise my fictional press release will one day be reality.

[atakacs]

Not so fictional I'm afraid.

In Switzerland parliament is currently debating a bill imposing a 500 CHF (au$ 10K or so) on any aircraft take-off (basically the end of GA).

[Dave Gittins]

Should probably ban all private cars too because of the risk they pose to petrol tankers and school busses.

[Hot and Hi]

Not so fictional I'm afraid.

In Switzerland parliament is currently debating a bill imposing a 500 CHF (au$ 10K or so) on any aircraft take-off (basically the end of GA).
Without prejudice to your argument: Kindly check your exchange rate.

[LKinnon]

I call bull**** on this thread.

Another deluded climate-change skeptic nutty conspiracy theory,

Speak with your doctor about the level of your medication Sunfish.

[Lead Balloon]

Sunfish might be trying to use rhetorical techniques like hyperbole and fiction to make a point about the regulation of general aviation in Australia.

[Asturias56]

Link to speech or report please?

[LKinnon]

Sunfish might be trying to use rhetorical techniques like hyperbole and fiction to make a point about the regulation of general aviation in Australia.

Some people are likely to read the post and take it literally. It's a deluded post that cites direct quotes that appear to be fabricated..

[West Coast]

Some of you don’t get it. It’s not real, it’s meant to start a conversation about the potential for the situation to arise in the not too distant future.

Took about 5 lines to figure it out. Don’t seek to be offended, read and comprehend instead.

[golfbananajam]

He even states his report is fictional! :ugh:

[ramble on]

The ONLY way to preserve a liveable habitat and the wafer thin 15000ft layer of breathable air around the planet is to somehow check the exploding human population. We are a plague. The continual drive for “Growth and Development” is INSANE and driven by short term greed.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Shouldn't this thread be on Jetblast? Sunnie, you've gone too far this time. You are a nutter!

[Squawk7700]

Took about 5 lines to figure it out. Don’t seek to be offended, read and comprehend instead.

Took you a while. The mere fact that he started a thread made me realise it would be BS.

[Duck Pilot]

Pretty serious comments made in the minister’s statement, to the extent that I am of the opinion that it’s fake.

Highly doubt that the minister’s advisor would even remotely suggest that she even made statements like what has been mentioned. Some of the remarks are actually insulting with regards to the assumptions about the rich and the use of aircraft to support crime.

Please provide a link to validate, otherwise remove the thread as it’s fake news.

[spektrum]

Pretty serious comments made in the minister’s statement, to the extent that I am of the opinion that it’s fake.

Duckpilot, congratulations you sharp specimen you. He admits it is fake. Did you even read the the post before replying?

[Bend alot]

Think Sunny you have your bag limit for the day, fishing without bait - Legend!

[Capt Fathom]

Obviously not much on TV last night !

[Head..er..wind]

The ONLY way to preserve a liveable habitat and the wafer thin 15000ft layer of breathable air around the planet is to somehow check the exploding human population. We are a plague. The continual drive for “Growth and Development” is INSANE and driven by short term greed.
Spot on Ramble. Well said.

[Sunfish]

Some of you can't tell fact from fiction, which is sad. However I'm pleased that I can still write a reasonable imitation of a press release.

But seriously folks, get your head around the current directions climate change debate is going under the "leadership" of Greta Thunberg and "extinction rebellion" (heard of them?). Airline travel is already in their sights.

Given that Australian pilots and their organisations, are not noted for their political skills (with some exceptions) and that Government at all levels is about to start looking for low hanging fruit to satisfy the climate change alarmists, don't you think you are easy targets? I do, especially when I consider that some of you sit on luverly flat property development land worth billions? Then there are the politics of envy or the tall poppy syndrome - Australians as a rule don't like rich aircraft owners. You are an easy mark, the public couldn't give a damn about you..

In my opinion, the ONLY way you are going to save your industry or hobby is to drive your organisations into being politically savvy and active right now. Forget about negotiating with CASA, forget about all this professionalism - Marquis of Queensberry honorable behaviour BS, you need to build a political reputation as bad as the CFMEU, or the African honey badger, an animal so fierce its been known to tear the testicles off lions. At the same time you need community outreach to build a positive image of GA in the minds of the general public - Peninsula Aero Club and Angel flight are pretty good at that. To put that another way, we need to join something like AOPA and turn it into the pit bull terrier that guards aviation from Government encroachment, we also need to generate a warm fuzzy image of Australian GA with the public.

And its doable. Do you know what Senator Pauline Hanson did to the Government the other day? Do you know what Senator Jacqui Lambie may do to the Government this coming week? Do you know that there may be a bye election in the seat of Chisholm? All it takes is one or two politicians holding the balance of power and warmly disposed to GA and we start getting what we want. You need to get a reputation with politicians - like AOPA USA has, that you are one big headache when annoyed and that it is wiser for politicians to give you what you want. Political clout - that is what you need to develop, I've talked ad nauseam how to build it. Without it my press release, or something close to it, may one day be fact, not fiction and sooner than you think.

[LKinnon]

Some of you can't tell fact from fiction, which is sad. However I'm pleased that I can still write a reasonable imitation of a press release.

But seriously folks, get your head around the current directions climate change debate is going under the "leadership" of Greta Thunberg and "extinction rebellion" (heard of them?). Airline travel is already in their sights.

And its doable. Do you know what Senator Pauline Hanson did to the Government the other day? Do you know what Senator Jacqui Lambie may do to the Government this coming week? Do you know that there may be a bye election in the seat of Chisholm? All it takes is one or two politicians holding the balance of power and warmly disposed to GA and we start getting what we want. You need to get a reputation with politicians - like AOPA USA has, that you are one big headache when annoyed and that it is wiser for politicians to give you what you want. Political clout - that is what you need to develop, I've talked ad nauseam how to build it. Without it my press release, or something close to it, may one day be fact, not fiction and sooner than you think.

There are plenty of whacko conspiracy-theory forums on the internet. Post your crap there and focus on aviation here. You are a certified nutter.

[Squawk7700]

Unsubscribe.

Enough of your doomsday prepping dribble!

[Duck Pilot]

Duckpilot, congratulations you sharp specimen you. He admits it is fake. Did you even read the the post before replying?

Thanks for your nice response, I’m deeply humbled by your commitments and a I will take them onboard according. I always welcome constructive criticism from people who are more knowledgeable, experienced and smarter than me.

[lomapaseo]

I wouldn't encourage fake posts like this. It is sure to give this forum section a bad name when you can't even trust management parsing of fakes.

[LKinnon]

I am concerned that someone with that kind of deluded thinking might have access to fly a plane.

Does anyone know his DAME so I can have a quiet chat and suggest a mental health review?

[FlightlessParrot]

OP is a bit rich coming from a country whose government doesn't even want to talk about climate change. But to salvage something from the thread: in order to preserve the possibility for aviation, both private and commercial, which is very hard to make carbon neutral, it is vitally necessary to act against the major causes of climate change, starting with coal. Instead of trolling forums, it would be useful to apply pressure to any governments one might be able to influence (India, China, USA, and Australia, for starters).

[spektrum]

Some of you can't tell fact from fiction, which is sad. However I'm pleased that I can still write a reasonable imitation of a press release.

But seriously folks, get your head around the current directions climate change debate is going under the "leadership" of Greta Thunberg and "extinction rebellion" (heard of them?). Airline travel is already in their sights.

Given that Australian pilots and their organisations, are not noted for their political skills (with some exceptions) and that Government at all levels is about to start looking for low hanging fruit to satisfy the climate change alarmists, don't you think you are easy targets? I do, especially when I consider that some of you sit on luverly flat property development land worth billions? Then there are the politics of envy or the tall poppy syndrome - Australians as a rule don't like rich aircraft owners. You are an easy mark, the public couldn't give a damn about you..

In my opinion, the ONLY way you are going to save your industry or hobby is to drive your organisations into being politically savvy and active right now. Forget about negotiating with CASA, forget about all this professionalism - Marquis of Queensberry honorable behaviour BS, you need to build a political reputation as bad as the CFMEU, or the African honey badger, an animal so fierce its been known to tear the testicles off lions. At the same time you need community outreach to build a positive image of GA in the minds of the general public - Peninsula Aero Club and Angel flight are pretty good at that. To put that another way, we need to join something like AOPA and turn it into the pit bull terrier that guards aviation from Government encroachment, we also need to generate a warm fuzzy image of Australian GA with the public.

And its doable. Do you know what Senator Pauline Hanson did to the Government the other day? Do you know what Senator Jacqui Lambie may do to the Government this coming week? Do you know that there may be a bye election in the seat of Chisholm? All it takes is one or two politicians holding the balance of power and warmly disposed to GA and we start getting what we want. You need to get a reputation with politicians - like AOPA USA has, that you are one big headache when annoyed and that it is wiser for politicians to give you what you want. Political clout - that is what you need to develop, I've talked ad nauseam how to build it. Without it my press release, or something close to it, may one day be fact, not fiction and sooner than you think.

Quoted for truth. Nice post Sunny.

[The name is Porter]

Took you a while. The mere fact that he started a thread made me realise it would be BS.

Now that was funny! Thankyou.

[Sunfish]

It’s a pity some of you don’t do parody or have any imagination.

[Sunfish]

Let’s say the year is 2020. The Liberal Government loses a vote of confidence on the floor of the reps. Labor forms a government in coalition with the green party.

NSW Green party policy item no 28:

28. “Introduce regulatory and taxation reforms that reflect the long term environmental, social and health impacts of air travel”.


Still think i’m a loony?

[LKinnon]

Still think i’m a loony?

Yes, 100% loony.

Please find somewhere else to post your nutter conspiracy theories.

You tried to pass an absolute falsity as a fact. You are a crazed liar.

[triadic]

All it takes is one or two politicians holding the balance of power and warmly disposed to GA and we start getting what we want. You need to get a reputation with politicians - like AOPA USA has, that you are one big headache when annoyed and that it is wiser for politicians to give you what you want. Political clout - that is what you need to develop, I've talked ad nauseam how to build it. Without it my press release, or something close to it, may one day be fact, not fiction and sooner than you think.

This is the meat of Sunny's post.... this is what we need to do and big time. Sad part is that the Associations that we have don't seem to want to always work together - that is a big problem if we are to survive long term. Put a polly or two on a slippery surface and they will be on side before you know it. After this weeks exercise in Parliament I see independents and small parties starting to take hold, especially when the major's are not listening to just about anyone!

[gerry111]

Sunfish,
In which of The Greens NSW policies does it say at item 28: "Introduce regulatory and taxation reforms that reflect the long term environmental, social and health impacts of air travel"?

[LKinnon]

The original post went way beyond simply being misleading. it was an outright lie.

Sunfish has been peddling his nutty fact-free conspiracy theories here for years. I'm calling him out as a compulsive liar who lacks a grasp of reality.

[vne165]

Sunfish, I get the parody, think you're on the money.

In my view the world is morphing (in plain sight) towards something rather unpleasant, whilst all the UI's (useful idiots) gaze adoringly at their iThingies and enjoy Farcetubing each other. Outside of the GA sector itself, ask yourself who is left that gives a toss about light aircraft and flying? The Gen Z cohort have been fooled into expecting pilotless air taxis soon, why would they care about GA? Generally, millennials are not interested, they just want max bandwidth and a slave on a bicycle to deliver pre-prepared meals. The Gen X and boomers that still engage with GA are reaching retirement age, and/or being medically shut down. Support internally and externally for a GA sector is diminishing.

Coupled with the above, the Greta's of the world will look to find fossil fuelled targets that are readily attacked and then shamed into oblivion. Campaigns like this are perfect for window dressing in Class A virtue signalling and will be broadcast widely, the politicians will love it as it's action that is visible, laudable and actually impacts very few. Flying for fun is already a rich persons hobby.

GA fits the bill for this type of green-Marxist agenda perfectly. People who fly for anything other than a utilitarian purpose, e.g. for fun, challenge or pleasure will be shunned. Eventually motor sport will go this way too, but a bigger support base amongst the UI's will see it last a bit longer. Already they are working hard to head this off with electrickery and carbon foot print offsets. The writing is on the wall unless somebody comes up with a cunning plan.

[BDAttitude]

Just wonder how they haven't found out yet, that most of us still use leaded petrol.
Having said that, social-envy-visual-noise protesters seem to be more threatening to me than followers of the Greta cult. I hope thy ban package holidays first. Some soma and VR goggles should do it.

[Cloudee]

In keeping with the theme, https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/nov/04/call-for-ban-on-uk-private-jets-by-2025-as-flight-traffic-soars

https://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/626901-uk-think-tank-threatens-private-jet-ops.html

[cattletruck]

Great opening post and the reactions that followed are ironically not too dissimilar to that on the world stage.

Why isn't Greta and her friends doing something about greenhouse gas emissions caused from that worldwide American export called "Black Friday"?

Oh well, with interest rates approaching negative numbers, wage growth stagnant, immigration and welfare going ballistic, China buying our backyard and housing costing millions, we all shoulda been real-estate agents.

[Sunfish]

Greens NSW Transport policy. Item 28.

https://greens.org.au/nsw/policies/transport

If you are a train spotter, the greens are for you.

Maybe electric aircraft will placate them.

[Bend alot]

Just wonder how they haven't found out yet, that most of us still use leaded petrol.
Having said that, social-envy-visual-noise protesters seem to be more threatening to me than followers of the Greta cult. I hope thy ban package holidays first. Some soma and VR goggles should do it.
It is funny green fuel is blue in most parts, not sure why Australia is not using the blue that has less lead.

[LKinnon]

After being caught out with a blatant lie, saying ".. it's only ... a parody" does not cut it.

Sunfish is a conspiracy-theory nutter and a liar.

[Pinky the pilot]

And you need a political response otherwise my fictional press release will one day be reality.

The above quote (bolding added) was the very last paragraph of the original post of this thread. I managed to work out that the scenario outlined in the OP was fiction and not a reality.

So what is your problem LKinnon?

Anyone would think that you are a Greens Party staffer!:rolleyes:

[Sunfish]

Ahhh, Mr Kinnon, the Jetstar cadet with reading comprehension problems and author of that immortal Pprune post from 23 April 2012:

Drug and Alcohol Testing - Cadetship ScreeningI am about to apply for a cadetship with a major airline.

In the advertisement they mention "Drug and Alcohol Testing" as part of the screening process.

I am young and enjoy a few drinks with my mates on weekends, and on occasion drink enough that I can't stand up.

Most weekends I also smoke a bit of pot and maybe once a year will drop an Ecstasy tablet when I go out to a dance club.

What I plan to do is abstain from booze and pot for two weeks prior to the test so that nothing gets picked up.

Does anyone have experience with these Drug and Alcohol Tests?

Will two weeks of abstination be enough?

Luckily I don't need to abstain from sex ;-)

[cattletruck]

screening process - creates greenhouse gases.
young - future greenhouse gases producer for many decades to come.
enjoy a few drinks with my mates - mass production of greenhouse gases.
drink enough that I can't stand up - produces greenhouse gases that could have been avoided.
I also smoke a bit of pot - produces greenhouse gases.
will drop an Ecstasy tablet - bikie backyard drug labs producing greenhouse gases.
dance club - produces greenhouse gases.
sex - produces greenhouse gases... even more if on a plane.

[junior.VH-LFA]

So this is pretty exhausting.

[The name is Porter]

After being caught out with a blatant lie, saying ".. it's only ... a parody" does not cut it.

Sunfish is a conspiracy-theory nutter and a liar.

Mate, release the grip a little, you'll go blind.

[old,not bold]

After being caught out with a blatant lie, saying ".. it's only ... a parody" does not cut it.

..........In what sense is putting in the original post "my fictional press release" being caught out with a blatant lie? Who did the catching?

From where I sit in the UK I can see a lot of politicians who would love to "pick the low-hanging fruit" that is GA, with the populist rhetoric we in the UK are getting at this moment from the Left.

I've been listening to it for years in planning enquiries, consultation meetings, etc etc, about airfield developments. If I've heard one objector asking why on earth people want to buzz around her lovely home in these noisy little planes I've heard 100, and plenty of politicians, local and national, would love to jump on the band-wagon offered by climate change politics. I've seen 2 MPs grandstanding in the same consultative briefing about an airfield development, each one lying knowingly and consistently with false "statistics" and sound-bites to please the mob, sorry, his constituents. As they continued to do shamelessly when we all went before the Transport Select Committee to argue the toss.

The reduction of non-commercial GA facilities is a process that's well under way in the UK. I would include flying clubs and schools in that; the training they offer is a commercial activity, of course, but for the most part will be concentrated in large centralised FTOs within the foreseeable future as political, environmental, regulatory and financial pressures on small clubs/schools and airfields increase.

The OP's fanciful fiction is nearer to reality, in the UK at least, than some people seem to realise.

[PaulH1]

It is about time people realised that Greta Thunberg is just a naïve 16 yr old schoolgirl who is being manipulated by her ambitious parents and energy giants (e.g. wind farm manufacturers). *She probably has no knowledge of the factors affecting Climate Change.

[Fire and brimstone]

Federal Government sources have indicated that the use of privately owned aircraft will be drastically restricted under foreshadowed amendments to the civil aviation act. “The restrictions are the first step in the Governments response to climate change as well as an admission of the enormous cost burdens private aircraft inflict on the community” an anonymous treasury source said.

Speaking at a private dinner, the Minister For Transport catalogued the deeply harmful effects of private aircraft use. “First, there are the totally avoidable greenhouse gas emissions from these toys of the rich”, “then there is their use by criminals transporting illegal drugs and child pornography”, “furthermore, there is the ever present risk to regular public transport aircraft, air ambulance and similar public services, not to mention the RAAF defenders of our democratic heritage from the ever present threat of collision with rich silvertails and criminals gadding about for no good reason in Australian airspace.” She said. “the costs to Airlines and the RAAF of avoiding crashing into these private flying hoons are considerable and add to the cost of airline tickets and the defence budget” She said.

In addition the Minister reminded guests of the billions of dollars locked up in regional airports, as she called them “playgrounds of the rich” and foreshadowed further relaxation of rules governing commercial developments of airport land. It is understood that agricultural, medical, remote area and community service flights will be exempted from the ban under a tightly regulated individual permit system.

“As a Government, we are serious about climate change, crime and community values, “ she said. “That is why we are being proactive in consigning private flight to the dustbin of history”.

......That is what you face. You have no answer because you refuse to believe your problems aren’t with CASA, they are with the politicians. ...And you need a political response otherwise my fictional press release will one day be reality.



If the science is correct, then it will become impossible to defend private aviation, eventually, based on pollution (and that is without even considering the use of fossil fuels resource).

The exception would be where there is no alternative.

I am afraid the days of 'going for a jolly for the sense of freedom it brings' are not sufficient reason to pollute the planet.

And before you say it, there are obvious exceptions - in fact many. These are not the same as going for a jolly, or because you cannot be bothered using the mass transport alternatives.

This will apply to all transport, not just flying. Flying however should not be exempt.

[70 Mustang]

UK Labour Party considering banning private jet flights by 2025

[triploss]

In Switzerland parliament is currently debating a bill imposing a 500 CHF (au$ 10K or so) on any aircraft take-off (basically the end of GA).
Exchange rate aside: feel free to bring this to a referendum if you care. Would be interesting to see the outcome. And informative.

[Sunfish]

If we think about it, we might have friends. The green types overseas are suggesting closing golf courses and using the land for public housing.

[Rated De]

.............they just want max bandwidth and a slave on a bicycle to deliver pre-prepared meals.


Brilliant an eloquent sign of the times

[Climb150]

Keep posting Kinnon. I want to see how many times you keep saying the same thing.

[junior.VH-LFA]

Brilliant an eloquent sign of the times

If you think that’s true it says more about you than it does millennials.

[dr dre]

Brilliant an eloquent sign of the times

Maybe millennials are less interested in flying due to the fact it’s quite cost intensive. Younger generations see a future filled with higher debts, extreme housing and cost of living prices, more uncertainty, more unemployment and underemployment, less job security, longer working hours if you are lucky to have a job. I don’t blame them from shying away from investing tens of thousands of dollars to earn and maintain a private licence they will probably use infrequently.
The cost of gaining a PPL and using it, even only infrequently, over several years would be like saving up a deposit for a home loan, and that’s something that a lot of millennials see as unacheivable, so you can see how far down the list of priorities flying for leisure would be.

Flying aircraft that are technologically unadvanced and spending their recreational time socialising in a community that’s generally far older than them, it’s just not an appealing argument to make to a youngster. For the same reason fewer younger people are buying cars, it’s cost intensive and there are cheaper alternatives about.

[machtuk]

Maybe millennials are less interested in flying due to the fact it’s quite cost intensive. Younger generations see a future filled with higher debts, extreme housing and cost of living prices, more uncertainty, more unemployment and underemployment, less job security, longer working hours if you are lucky to have a job. I don’t blame them from shying away from investing tens of thousands of dollars to earn and maintain a private licence they will probably use infrequently.
The cost of gaining a PPL and using it, even only infrequently, over several years would be like saving up a deposit for a home loan, and that’s something that a lot of millennials see as unacheivable, so you can see how far down the list of priorities flying for leisure would be.

Flying aircraft that are technologically unadvanced and spending their recreational time socialising in a community that’s generally far older than them, it’s just not an appealing argument to make to a youngster. For the same reason fewer younger people are buying cars, it’s cost intensive and there are cheaper alternatives about.



Actually that's a fair assumption of how the youth of today are trending. Another generation or three & the youngsters of tomorrow won't be coming from a family where someone flew. I have numerous nieces & nephews and they have many friends none of them as far as I know show any interest in flying.
I also have 3 offspring, all well & truly grown up none of them where the slightest bit interested in flying (thank Christ!). Us old codgers will just fade away:-(

[mikewil]

Sunfish,
In which of The Greens NSW policies does it say at item 28: "Introduce regulatory and taxation reforms that reflect the long term environmental, social and health impacts of air travel"?

In policy 28 of their transport policy page.... https://greens.org.au/nsw/policies/transport

If you think about it, the implementation of these loony greens policies isn't as far fetched as many of you believe. We have seen during the Julia Gillard era just what the greens are capable of in a hung parliament despite only holding a very small fraction of the national vote.

[thorn bird]

"Sunfish is a crazy liar and I am sick of seeing his nutty posts here."

As Voltaire once said..............................

Sunny says what he says that is his right, if you don't like what he says don't read it, unless you have ulterior motives for confectioned outrage.

[YPJT]

I would think it hard to single out aviation at the lower end of the scale without targeting all other forms of motorised recreation for the same reasons.

[PoppaJo]

Actually that's a fair assumption of how the youth of today are trending. Another generation or three & the youngsters of tomorrow won't be coming from a family where someone flew. I have numerous nieces & nephews and they have many friends none of them as far as I know show any interest in flying.
I also have 3 offspring, all well & truly grown up none of them where the slightest bit interested in flying (thank Christ!). Us old codgers will just fade away:-(
Many moons back in my year level, I reckon there was about 10 of us interested in flying in the same year level. From memory 8 of that 10 went on for long term careers.

My youngest son who graduated a few years back, was the first one in about 10 years interested at his school. When I went to the compulsory Year 12 careers advisors meeting with him, he said he wanted to become a pilot like his father. The panel were a little stumbled on how he was to go about this. I said he will gain his CPL in the next decade at the cost of six figures and earn probably 40 grand for next decade after that, then try and get some prop job in the middle of nowhere for the next decade, then try and get a jet job and start a family on a living wage. They all looked at me like I was some form of mental patient and advise he schedule a meeting with the head of Careers at the school to discuss their concerns around his future in this chosen field.

I think I earn about 7 times what they do but I’m sure they will point my young fella in the right direction!

[gerry111]

Thank you Sunfish and mikewil for the link.

[dr dre]

Actually that's a fair assumption of how the youth of today are trending. Another generation or three & the youngsters of tomorrow won't be coming from a family where someone flew. I have numerous nieces & nephews and they have many friends none of them as far as I know show any interest in flying.
I also have 3 offspring, all well & truly grown up none of them where the slightest bit interested in flying (thank Christ!). Us old codgers will just fade away:-(

Flying for leisure or professionally? I still think there’s a bit of interest in professional flying as a career in youth, maybe they have different expectations of a career compared to previous generations.

I was more thinking of a millennial’s interest in flying for leisure/recreation. Once upon a time you could take a few mates for a weekend away in a light aircraft. Nowadays for a weekend away in a beaten up light aircraft that’s about 50 years old the hire rate alone could get you two weeks in SE Asia airfares, accomodation, food and spending money. What do you think the more cost savvy youth in times of higher debts and less job security will be attracted to?

No offence to those of advanced years, but aero and flying clubs seem to be mostly dominated by older generations. Younger people really don’t want to spend their spare time amongst a much older crowd.

It’s got nothing to do with “lazy” millennials, if anything I think millennials work longer and harder, it’s just their attraction to recreational aviation is declining. It may be at a point where it can’t be turned around and soon there’ll be no great interest in private flying anymore.

[Lookleft]

No offence to those of advanced years, but aero and flying clubs seem to be mostly dominated by older generations. Younger people really don’t want to spend their spare time amongst a much older crowd. I don't blame them especially if the aero clubs are frequented by people like Sunfish.

[LKinnon]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/648x960/birds78126425_1422591677895867_4594820162892333056_o_adef6a1 c0746d3a2176dcd5a8b42bad98cc795be.jpg
Saw this post and thought of Sunfish and his conspiracy-theory nutter mates.

He has probably run out of people who are patient enough to listen to his crazed rants, so he posts them here for us to suffer.

[Sunfish]

YPJT:I would think it hard to single out aviation at the lower end of the scale without targeting all other forms of motorised recreation for the same reasons.

I”m sure the greens have all internal combustion engines in their sights. However there are less aeroplanes and pilots then there are speedboat owners, trail bike riders and motor racers. Hence my contention that we would be the easiest target, except for perhaps jet skis. :)

As for those who think I’m being fantastic, let me introduce you to our little friend, the Overton window....

The Overton window is the range of policies politically acceptable to the mainstream population at a given time.[1] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window#cite_note-1) It is also known as the window of discourse. The term is named after Joseph P. Overton (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_P._Overton), who stated that an idea's political viability depends mainly on whether it falls within this range, rather than on politicians' individual preferences.[2] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window#cite_note-mackinac2-2)
[3] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window#cite_note-mackinac1-3) According to Overton, the window frames the range of policies that a politician can recommend without appearing too extreme to gain or keep public office given the climate of public opinion (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion) at that time.

.........Political commentator Joshua Treviño (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Trevi%C3%B1o) has postulated that the degrees of acceptance of public ideas are roughly:[7] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window#cite_note-7)

Unthinkable
Radical
Acceptable
Sensible
Popular
Policy.
According to Overton, policy starts out with the floating of an “unthinkable” idea that is gradually worked through stages by its supporters to become policy.

Australian examples: gun control, gay marriage, universal superannuation, relaxed liquor licensing laws, divorce, indefinite detention, etc., etc. Climate change emergency will no doubt spawn more.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

[dr dre]

policy starts out with the floating of an “unthinkable” idea that is gradually worked through stages by its supporters to become policy.

Australian examples: gun control, gay marriage, universal superannuation, relaxed liquor licensing laws, divorce, indefinite detention, etc., etc. Climate change emergency will no doubt spawn more.

I remember a noisy minority were very upset about gun control, but it was passed and the majority of the public accepted it. Because the vast majority of people don’t use or have a direct need for a gun.

Very few people engage in private flying, and as I’ve pointed out factors like debt and lack of outcome on investment give young people good reason to not take up private aviation, so those numbers won’t be increasing. There won’t be any real support amongst politicians and the wider public to keep it going.

However there are alternatives. If you think a petrol powered light aircraft’s days are numbered, then why not look at investing in this to develop this technology as a potential future solution for recreational aviation:

The Truth About Electric Planes

[Sunfish]

The Greens will think of reasons to ban electric aircraft too. Give them time.

[Aussie Bob]

Saw this post and thought of Sunfish and his conspiracy-theory nutter mates. He has probably run out of people who are patient enough to listen to his crazed rants, so he posts them here for us to suffer.

The trouble is Kinnon, folk like you know so much that you won't debate. When someone has a differing opinion you simply resort to name calling. Must be good being correct on everything and all knowing.

Here in the Bob's world, I read stuff like this "The Elite Machine Behind Greta Thunberg" (https://vigilantcitizen.com/latestnews/the-elite-machine-behind-greta-thunberg/) and I ponder and wonder, but I don't know!

[Flaming galah]

The end of private flight was inevitable the moment the transgender lobby and feminists stopped schoolboys taking rifles on trams.

[Lookleft]

Very few people engage in private flying, and as I’ve pointed out factors like debt and lack of outcome on investment give young people good reason to not take up private aviation, so those numbers won’t be increasing. There won’t be any real support amongst politicians and the wider public to keep it going.

However there are alternatives. If you think a petrol powered light aircraft’s days are numbered, then why not look at investing in this to develop this technology as a potential future solution for recreational aviation:

So I'm confused. Do young people not fly because its expensive and the people associated with it are old and boring, or do they not fly because the mode of propulsion is associated with climate change? You actually negate one part of your argument with the other.

[dr dre]

So I'm confused. Do young people not fly because its expensive and the people associated with it are old and boring, or do they not fly because the mode of propulsion is associated with climate change? You actually negate one part of your argument with the other.

No I actually don’t. There are advantages to marketing recreational electric aircraft to young people as an alternative to older generation aircraft.

Electric aircraft have the ability to increase the affordability of flying. Therefore would improve it’s appeal to younger people.

And although a lot of people posting here would laugh at this, the truth is a lot of young people are quite concerned about the environment and their emissions, so promoting electric powered vehicles would appeal to them.

Now would electric aircraft draw the interest of a younger crowd? Notwithstanding those two points which I believe will attract more younger people, those associated with the development of this new aircraft are a bit younger than your typical GA enthusiast.

The creator of that YouTube channel is a young Australian in his 20’s, who creates videos about technology and innovation. He has a massive subscriber base and his view counts reach into the millions, and a great proportion of them younger people. And he’s directly promoting an Australian Aviation startup. This could be the most exposure Australian GA has been given to a younger audience in a long time. People here should be fully supporting his efforts.

Better to support these young Australian entrepreneurs who are trying to promote cost effective and emissions friendly recreational aviation to young peoplewith their own innovative startup, than trying to lobby governments to legislate to keep their dying industry alive.

[Lookleft]

the hire rate alone could get you two weeks in SE Asia airfares, accomodation, food and spending money. What do you think the more cost savvy youth in times of higher debts and less job security will be attracted to?

So why will the cost be significantly less for a newly developed electric aeroplane that will make the debt ridden millennials flock to small planes and revive a dying industry?

[dr dre]

So why will the cost be significantly less for a newly developed electric aeroplane that will make the debt ridden millennials flock to small planes and revive a dying industry?

Did you watch the video? Obviously not.

[601]

No offence to those of advanced years, but aero and flying clubs seem to be mostly dominated by older generations. Younger people really don’t want to spend their spare time amongst a much older crowd.


But we did associate with the older (WW2 pilots) when we joined flying clubs and learned a great deal and just not about flying.

It’s got nothing to do with “lazy” millennials, if anything I think millennials work longer and harder, it’s just their attraction to recreational aviation is declining. It may be at a point where it can’t be turned around and soon there’ll be no great interest in private flying anymore.

I don't think that millennials work harder and longer at work. It is all the fluff with "social media" that they work longer and harder at.

[dr dre]

I don't think that millennials work harder and longer at work. It is all the fluff with "social media" that they work longer and harder at.

And people are scratching their heads on why millennials don’t feel enthused about spending their down time at an aero club bar....

[Squawk7700]

Speaking of younger generations, full credit should go to Tim Howes and the Bush Flying Down Under mob (check Facebook if you’re not across them) as they really are gathering momentum in the tail-dragger scene and getting more younger guys / gals interested in flying and pinning HP their aircraft. There’s a lot of younger lads and ladies getting into this kind of flying. They really are showing that you don’t have to fly a 50 year old Cessna bug smasher, but rather the huge array of STOL capable aircraft with big tyres and unlimited potential. Even an entry level Skyfox or Kitfox is capable of landing almost anywhere.

Watching the likes of Trent Palmer, Cory Robin and Mike Patey on YouTube will also show how vibrant the younger generation are in the US too. You’d be mistaken for thinking it was some kind of religious cult. Some might argue that it is.

They are not only promoting flying, but cleaning up the outback and offering support to drought stricken farmers.

If you’re not across this scene, join up to Facebook and subscribe or subscribe to their YouTube channels. Mike Patey’s channel is no less than inspirational.

[Lookleft]

Did you watch the video? Obviously not. Have you watched it all the way to the end? Their 70km cross country flight with 1 person on board in a $180,000 aeroplane required two hours of charging with a gennie loaded on the back of a diesel spewing ute! How is a plane load of millennials going to get to the coast now? One millenial in the aeroplane and 3 in the ute. What would Greta think? You are that blinded by by your climate change hysteria you can't even recognise when what you are promoting is garbage. I will ask the question again that you like to avoid, what is it you do for a living?

[dr dre]

Have you watched it all the way to the end? Their 70km cross country flight with 1 person on board in a $180,000 aeroplane required two hours of charging with a gennie loaded on the back of a diesel spewing ute! How is a plane load of millennials going to get to the coast now? One millenial in the aeroplane and 3 in the ute. What would Greta think? You are that blinded by by your climate change hysteria you can't even recognise when what you are promoting is garbage.

Kitty Hawk North Carolina, 1903.

ORVILLE: Sure was a great day Wilbur

WILBUR: Sure was Orville, with what we've accomplished here today who knows what the possibilities are in powered flight, with more research and development maybe one day we'll fly across oceans in near perfect safety...

BYSTANDER EXPOSING THE TRUTH: You two are absolute clowns, you've only flown 800 feet in your fabric and wire contraption, how are passengers ever going to get to cross oceans? You only climbed to 200 feet in height, how ludicrous must you be to think you flying machines will one day reach many miles into the sky. You still had to transport it here on a train didn't you? What sane person will choose to travel at 30 miles per hour on your flying thing when they can already travel across country on 100 mph trains? Even if you get these airborne contraptions to work who will pay a year's salary to fly across an oceans in them when they can travel in perfect safety for cheap on an ocean liner? You are that blinded by your "aeroplane" hysteria you can't even recognise when what you are promoting is garbage.

(And before any smart alecs chime in, yes I'm fully aware it took 50/60 years for transoceanic jet aircraft travel to be perfected. The use of electric aircraft for small scale aviation could take many years, or not many at all, primarily depending on how much R&D is done and how much investment is pumped in. Already in the last few years battery storage capacity has greatly expanded, as are gains made in solar efficiency. Of course full scale electric aircraft will not appear tomorrow, but there's plenty of exciting development being conducted in this field. In a few decades I'd say it'd be more common to see an Electro Aero in the sky, than Cessna 150/170 series derivatives.

I will ask the question again that you like to avoid, what is it you do for a living?

What I do for a living is exactly the same as you. Not a climate scientist. Difference being I don't think I know more than them on the topic of climate science.

[Squawk7700]

Have you watched it all the way to the end? Their 70km cross country flight with 1 person on board in a $180,000 aeroplane required two hours of charging with a gennie loaded on the back of a diesel spewing ute! How is a plane load of millennials going to get to the coast now? One millenial in the aeroplane and 3 in the ute. What would Greta think? You are that blinded by by your climate change hysteria you can't even recognise when what you are promoting is garbage. I will ask the question again that you like to avoid, what is it you do for a living?

Give them some credit, that was almost their first ever flight and they were being ultra-careful with range, as you would be. Solar panels on the flying school and a large battery onsite means it’s heading towards carbon neutral territory ongoing. It’s a moot point though as manufacturing the aircraft in the first place is far from neutral, however the Pipistrel factory is ultra-modern and is fully solar for power.

It’s just the start...

[vne165]

*WARNING*
The below is an idea posited simply to encourage thinking. It contains no traces of conspiracy, however a smidgen of insanitythas been included for S&^ts and giggles.
For your own sake, please don't read any further if you're lacking an imagination.

Ideas for Engaging Flights of Fancy, or How To Get Younger Folks Interested in Aviation
Idea #1 - The Great Electric Celebrity Air Race ( Copyright 2019 Vne Productions)

Synopsis
A million dollar cash prize is offered to the team who successfully circumnavigates Australia in the shortest elapsed time and with the smallest overall carbon footprint. Only aircraft powered by electricity will be permitted to compete, however race officials and support crews will travel in conventional aircraft, which will be coincidentally measured for their carbon footprint throughout the race as an interesting comparison. Competitors will start and finish at a predetermined location, with only the next immediate destination known in advance. Intermediate landings to recharge anywhere along the route may be taken as the team requires.

Accompanying each pilot will be some sort of minor celebrity or better, a politician who is to assist with navigation, flight planning, ground handling, cooking, cracking jokes, departure preparations, packing, cleaning and so on. As the teams reach each destination, the next one will be revealed to them. Think a combination of Top Gear Challenges, I'm a celebrity, get me out of here and a Bear Grylls type survival show.

Each aircraft and pilot/navigator will be fitted with cameras and mics, data from which will be uploaded in real time where possible, or after each landing, then edited/packaged and televised in a 30 min TV show each evening. Think Big Brother reality show TV here. Each team will have a 4-person ground based support team, whose role it is to manage the teams social media postings and updates on a moment by moment basis. These folks will similarly be filmed and form part of the overall TV package. The importance of these support teams will become apparent.

The route will cover all of the major regional centres and big cities in order to avoid remote regions where internet bandwidth is limited/not available, but the order in which they will visit them will only be revealed incrementally, e.g as the leading competitor reaches the next town. Thus the slower aircraft will have a much advanced warning of where they are going to visit, compared to the leaders. This is important, because it is incumbent on the competitors to recharge their craft in the most environmentally “clean” fashion possible.

As recharging the aircraft has a carbon footprint, points will be lost according to how this is done. Use a diesel generator = lose heaps of points, use solar panels = lose almost no points. Ship replacement charged batteries by truck (once the next destination is known) = lose some points, send by train = lose not as many points as by truck. You get the idea I’m sure.

The winning team will be successful by engaging each destinations community via social media, in order to get them to assist the teams in recharging the aircraft with the smallest possible carbon footprint. Ingenuity, organisational and social media skills will be crucial. For example, if a team could mobilise folks to hastily construct a low carbon footprint charging arrangement such as a treadmill powered generator, firstly I would laugh my head off and secondly, they would lose no points. Or maybe an alternate destination that has a grid powered by wind generators might be a good option to recharge. It may not be a point to point race, many diversions may occur. It would become a "peoples race" after a fashion.

The race would be run over a three to four week period, the public could vote online each day for the most popular team, who could potentially earn carbon offset credits. Where possible, destination landing areas would be outside of main airfields (think paddocks, fields, race tracks etc , in order that accessibility to the public could be maximised. Just like the good old days. There would be surprise challenges, twist and turns thrown in.
Support for the race will be manifold, everyone from the TV networks (advertising bonanza) , CASA, local government administrations, right through to the PMO would be on board. It would be a clear demonstration of a commitment to the environment, to innovation, to regional cities and towns, celebrities, social media, tourism (imagine the footage), and most importantly, aviation would be front and centre.

I need to pitch this to someone after I’ve had a lie down..anyone got Dick's number?

[machtuk]

Interesting little video, thanks for posting. Can't see these very limiting Elect machines advancing much for a long time but hey few of us will be here that far away to say otherwise -)

[Lookleft]

What I do for a living is exactly the same as you. Not a climate scientist. Difference being I don't think I know more than them on the topic of climate science.

Once again you can't answer the question. I didn't ask what you are not I asked what you do. If you are an airline pilot then just state it or are you afraid of the climate hysterics who will disown you from the cause?

[junior.VH-LFA]

Just going to drop this here..

https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/

[LKinnon]

Christmas will be here soon.

Here's a gift idea for Sunfish:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x719/hat_77366273_2583589128567723_2965171410281955328_n_da12dee5 a224f31c01149aceab576f87b9b07ac9.jpg

[spektrum]

Moderator, he posted the S word. It offended me. Ban him please.

[dr dre]

Moderator, he posted the S word. It offended me. Ban him please.

"Scientific" as in "Scientific consensus"?

[Fire and brimstone]

The end of private flight was inevitable the moment the transgender lobby and feminists stopped schoolboys taking rifles on trams.

Do you realise that reading your post backwards, at half speed, it says "Prince Andrew is innocent"?

Just saying .......................

[Sunfish]

All the electric transport industry needs is a quantum leap in battery storage technology and for aircraft, one that is not too heavy for aircraft. The rest is then just about infrastructure I think. There are technologies now that claim anything from 2 to 8 times the capacity of existing lithium cells now in use.

As for young folk, we had a friends grand daughter around yesterday, ski instructor, dive master and finance professional - she made a beeline to see “the project” and wants to claim first passenger flight.

Also, Sqwawk is right about young people and the STOL lightweight scene. Seems to be going well, unless it gets killed off by regulation.

[Malakor1]

Christmas will be here soon.

Here's a gift idea for Sunfish:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x719/hat_77366273_2583589128567723_2965171410281955328_n_da12dee5 a224f31c01149aceab576f87b9b07ac9.jpg

LKinnon, mate, you're holding on too tight.

[Okihara]

Not so fictional I'm afraid.

In Switzerland parliament is currently debating a bill imposing a 500 CHF (au$ 10K or so) on any aircraft take-off (basically the end of GA).

Are you certain? The news I keep up with is mentioning figures from CHF 30 to 120, or roughly A$45 to A$180, and that's on passenger tickets for RPT, not GA.

[Okihara]

It is about time people realised that Greta Thunberg is just a naïve 16 yr old schoolgirl who is being manipulated by her ambitious parents and energy giants (e.g. wind farm manufacturers). *She probably has no knowledge of the factors affecting Climate Change.

I reckon she hasn't done her TIF yet.

[Cleared Visual]

It is about time people realised that Greta Thunberg is just a naïve 16 yr old schoolgirl who is being manipulated by her ambitious parents and energy giants (e.g. wind farm manufacturers). *She probably has no knowledge of the factors affecting Climate Change.

Greta has Aspergers. If you have ever known someone with this condition, you'd understand she probably has an intimate knowledge of the factors affecting climate change because she has an intense and highly focussed fixation on it. What she lacks (which can also be attributed to Aspergers) are higher social skills like tact and diplomacy. Give the kid a break!

Sunfish you made me laugh! I disagree with your alarmist sentiments and right wing conspiracy theories, but I'll give credit where it is due. You're a loony for sure, but at least you're articulate and entertaining.

[Flaming galah]

Greta has Aspergers. If you have ever known someone with this condition, you'd understand she probably has an intimate knowledge of the factors affecting climate change because she has an intense and highly focussed fixation on it. What she lacks (which can also be attributed to Aspergers) are higher social skills like tact and diplomacy. Give the kid a break!

Sunfish you made me laugh! I disagree with your alarmist sentiments and right wing conspiracy theories, but I'll give credit where it is due. You're a loony for sure, but at least you're articulate and entertaining.

Agreed! Though Aspergers is no longer a seperate DSM diagnosis, it’s all just autism spectrum now. But hear hear, give her a break!

[Bend alot]

The trouble is Kinnon, folk like you know so much that you won't debate. When someone has a differing opinion you simply resort to name calling. Must be good being correct on everything and all knowing.

Here in the Bob's world, I read stuff like this "The Elite Machine Behind Greta Thunberg" (https://vigilantcitizen.com/latestnews/the-elite-machine-behind-greta-thunberg/) and I ponder and wonder, but I don't know!
Greta has documented proof of her position/concern way before this was written and way before she was famous.

While aviation travel is a thing her and her family have decided not to do (and affected employment - before famous), aviation does not seem a specific target of Greta.

Leave the kid alone.

[Pinky the pilot]

she probably has an intimate knowledge of the factors affecting climate change because she has an intense and highly focussed fixation on it

Yes, and IMHO a highly biased fixation!

Her whole diatribe that was shown here on South Australian TV News services just showed as far as I could see, a highly emotional figure who was totally convinced of her position/opinion (ie I am right and you are wrong!)

give her a break!

Leave the kid alone.

Start arguing facts and not emotion. Otherwise, not a (expletive deleted) chance!!:*

Flak jacket, Stahlhelm and Slit Trench. Not that I give a .....

[maxter]

Have you watched it all the way to the end? Their 70km cross country flight with 1 person on board in a $180,000 aeroplane required two hours of charging with a gennie loaded on the back of a diesel spewing ute! How is a plane load of millennials going to get to the coast now? One millenial in the aeroplane and 3 in the ute. What would Greta think? You are that blinded by by your climate change hysteria you can't even recognise when what you are promoting is garbage. I will ask the question again that you like to avoid, what is it you do for a living?

The normal argument of EV sceptics who only can see in the rear vison mirror. iPhone is just 10 years old and look at the massive change in that time. The rate of change in technology is escalating and will make EV the only option and probably a lot quicker than even those of us who accept change can imagine.

[junior.VH-LFA]

Yes, and IMHO a highly biased fixation!

Start arguing facts and not emotion. Otherwise, not a (expletive deleted) chance!!:*

https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/

Like this peer reviewed science? Or what was on the Bolt Report?

[Rarife]

Greta has Aspergers. If you have ever known someone with this condition, you'd understand she probably has an intimate knowledge of the factors affecting climate change because she has an intense and highly focussed fixation on it. What she lacks (which can also be attributed to Aspergers) are higher social skills like tact and diplomacy. Give the kid a break!

Sunfish you made me laugh! I disagree with your alarmist sentiments and right wing conspiracy theories, but I'll give credit where it is due. You're a loony for sure, but at least you're articulate and entertaining.
You can not be serious. She has no knowledge at all? Have you seen any scientific paper published by her? She just repeats empty phrases and fakes emotions and you can not say anything "because she is just a kid". Man, she is reincarnation of Hitler himself (change Hitler for your favourite dictator). There are no real solutions, no real help. Just spreading panic, playing it emotions and scarying people. That is first step of manipulation to start totality because that is exactly how it was before 1989 in the East. We live on a piece of rock which is 4,5 billions years of old and its mass is almost 6x10^24 kg. Yet, according to this kid we can not waste a single day because disaster will be inevitable? Like really? I do not have problem with climate change. I fully agree we should care about our enviroment. But they do nothing like that. They just desire power. Power gained by fear and poverty.

[mjohansen]

What we are experiencing from people like Greta and Alexandria Ocasio Cortez is an ideological propaganda campaign that considers western lifestyle, capitalism and free enterprise as the evils of the world.
No it is not a conspiracy theory. It is ideology and there is plentry of documentation.

Look at this excerpt:
"In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill....All these dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome. The real enemy then, is humanity itself"
Sound like a script for Greta or Extinction Rebellion? Well it could be but is is actually from a 1991 publication "The first global revolution" by a think tank called "The club of rome". A scanned copy of the document can be found on the internet. The year after this publication, 1992, the UN held the Rio conference on "Sustainable Development" which later turned into the 2030 World goals on "sustainable development".

In an interview a few years ago the head of the UNFCCC said:
""This is the first time in the history of mankind that we are setting ourselves the task of intentionally, within a defined period of time, to change the economic development model that has been reigning for at least 150 years, since the Industrial Revolution"
https://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/nicolas-loris/uns-plan-climate-change-end-capitalism (The page with the original interview seems to have been removed from the official UN site. I wonder why....)

Well I can tell you that the economy is being transformed here in the EU and people are starting to wake up and protest such as the Yellow Vests in France, the Dutch farmers and Berlin farmers. In Denmark the last election was declared "The first climate election" and the socialists and communists (yes we still have a communist party in Denmark) won the majority of the vote. Now they are rolling out even more taxes to pay for their "green" adventures.

Fortunately there are still a few investigative reporters digging into who is actually behind people like Greta and AOC. Who is paying for Gretas hotel room etc. and her parents who seem to follow her around?

[Cleared Visual]

You can not be serious. She has no knowledge at all? Have you seen any scientific paper published by her? She just repeats empty phrases and fakes emotions and you can not say anything "because she is just a kid". Man, she is reincarnation of Hitler himself (change Hitler for your favourite dictator). There are no real solutions, no real help. Just spreading panic, playing it emotions and scarying people. That is first step of manipulation to start totality because that is exactly how it was before 1989 in the East. We live on a piece of rock which is 4,5 billions years of old and its mass is almost 6x10^24 kg. Yet, according to this kid we can not waste a single day because disaster will be inevitable? Like really? I do not have problem with climate change. I fully agree we should care about our enviroment. But they do nothing like that. They just desire power. Power gained by fear and poverty.

Ah Godwin's law holds true once again!

To be honest I am less concerned about how action (or inaction) on climate change will alter society than I am about grown ass adults who think a 16 year old disabled kid is the reincarnation of Hitler and accuse THEM of spreading moral panic.

[Sunfish]

I’m afraid it’s darker than you think. Read the “extinction rebellion” website. They call for an “emergency response”. At present they engage in peaceful protests. My concern is that they have the potential to turn violent. If that happens, we may face a threat from climate change Luddites and we are sitting targets.

I base that concern on the direction that animal activists have taken - destroying businesses, vandalism and harassing farmers. I judge “extinction rebellion” could go the same way.

[Flaming galah]

Iclimate change Luddites

That’s one big oxymoron there champ.

[fnqflier]

It’s a pity some of you don’t do parody or have any imagination.

I always enjoy your posts Sunfish, and I am but a mere PPL and aircraft owner, but I know the truth when I read it and you are telling it as it really is. No conspiracy theories or tinfoil hats necessary! The scenario you tongue-in-cheek described could well be close to a reality if those in power keep going the way they're heading. The vast majority of the public don't really understand the role of aviation in this country other than to jump on a plane and have the convenience of fast inter-city travel. The real grass roots side of it, the men and women doing the hard yards in the bush and mustering cattle, or the folks flying tourists around Uluru or the Kimberley, or the heroes of the RFDS and other EMS services are generally the ones most people never get to see, unless there's an accident... then the media is all over it like white on rice!

This country is BIG! It screams for aviation! The tyranny of distance really comes alive here because everything is just so far away, unless you are just flying up and down the eastern sea board. The politicians are the puppet masters pulling CASA's strings. Sunfish is absolutely correct that the change has to be made at the highest level; being annoyed with CASA and their processes is a common pastime but it won't change a damned thing.

Personally, I despise politics because I can see through the spin and the false promises and it just never changes. Unfortunately the media has a lot to answer for as well due to sensationalistic reporting of accidents and near misses, all of which contribute to Joe Public having a negative image of aviation. I was attempting to get my neighbours to come up for a private scenic flight with me in my aircraft and the comment I got back was, "Oh no! Those little planes fall out of the sky all the time! We're not going in one of those!" Hmmmm? Wonder where they got that idea from?

Mainstream aviation is secure here (e.g. the major airlines) but GA is dying the death of a thousand cuts and this country needs to stand up for it otherwise we'll blink and it really will be gone unless major reform happens, and happens soon.

Just my 2 cents worth!

[Rivet gun]

Battery technology is advancing rapidly. Significant improvements in specific energy and safety will see electric propulsion become the norm for road vehicles and light aircraft within a few years.

But there is no point in electric vehicles unless the electricity is low carbon. Wind and solar power are coming down in price and will make a major contribution but the so called "renewables" will not meet the increased demand for electricity on their own. New generation nuclear technology (such as this https://www.moltexenergy.com/) will fill the gap and enable us to stop using fossil fuels for electricity generation.

Climate change luddites believe that the planet can only be saved by giving things up and massively changing lifestyles. They don't believe that new technologies will enable us to continue doing the things we want (such as driving cars and flying aircraft) without destroying the planet.

[aroa]

Good post fnqflier. As it is.
The really rotten regulator, CAsA /Cretins Against Sensible Aviation HAS TO GO if GA and PVT flying is to survive,
And all those with an axe to grind...put in your submission to [email protected]
If you dont let them know about the CAsA buggery going on they'll never know for the reguired changes need.

[Sholayo]

Ah Godwin's law holds true once again!

To be honest I am less concerned about how action (or inaction) on climate change will alter society than I am about grown ass adults who think a 16 year old disabled kid is the reincarnation of Hitler and accuse THEM of spreading moral panic.


Well, Hitler was my thought at the very beginning of this conversation after reading post #11 (https://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=10632614).
Living in Poland where Germans set-up Auschwitz and many other, less known death camps I do not find such comments as the one quoted below funny.
But hey, the way Germans dealt with overpopulation of the East and need for a "way to preserve a liveable habitat (...) and to somehow check the exploding human population." (aka Lebensraum). They even identified who is "the plague". A bit narrower than ramble on .

&

"https://www.pprune.org/images/statusicon/post_old.gif 29th Nov 2019, 19:36
#11 (https://www.pprune.org/showpost.php?p=10629218&postcount=11) (permalink (https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=10629218))
ramble on

Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 234
The ONLY way to preserve a liveable habitat and the wafer thin 15000ft layer of breathable air around the planet is to somehow check the exploding human population. We are a plague. The continual drive for “Growth and Development” is INSANE and driven by short term greed."

[Sunfish]

I think the best way to de-Hitlerise this discussion is to observe that the worst excesses of human behavior towards other humans have been instigated by people who have been able to convince their followers that they are in possession of the "revealed truth" contained in some grand mystical theory and that therefore their beastliness is sanctified by the "the ends justify the means" argument.

German Fascism, Russian (pre WII) and Cambodian Communism are three examples of religions that did this, killing millions for their version of the greater good. Like others, I detect in Greta Thunberg that same messianic zeal that is quite capable of perverting Environmentalism into a homicidal, dictatorial, depopulation movement.

If I am right, the next stage is to proscribe all non carbon neutral recreational activities.

[Lookleft]

If I am right, the next stage is to proscribe all non carbon neutral recreational activities.

Given your bizarre summary of 20th century history then the only conclusion I can deduce is that you are not right, in more ways than one!

[Squawk7700]

Given your bizarre summary of 20th century history then the only conclusion I can deduce is that you are not right, in more ways than one!

Touche.

This thread surely can’t run for much longer!

As stated earlier, presumably he possesses an aviation medical and possibly and ASIC card. Clearly that system is working well !

[Flaming galah]

If I am right, the next stage is to proscribe all non carbon neutral recreational activities.

That’s the second step. The foundations were laid when feminists and the transgender lobby stopped schoolboys carrying firearms on public transport.

[Sunfish]

The saddest thing about caged zoo and circus animals is that when the doors to their cages are left open, they won’t leave, or if they do, they are easily enticed back into captivity. not being able to imagine anything better outside their comfortable cage.

Some of you remind me of said animals.

[Lookleft]

The saddest thing about wild animals, who are albino, is that they have no idea why they are always a target.

[De_flieger]

I think the best way to de-Hitlerise this discussion is to observe that the worst excesses of human behavior towards other humans have been instigated by people who have been able to convince their followers that they are in possession of the "revealed truth" contained in some grand mystical theory and that therefore their beastliness is sanctified by the "the ends justify the means" argument.
The only difference is you havent done anything much more beastly (as far as I know) than making a bunch of posts on social media about your "revealed truth", and you haven't really convinced many.

[Sunfish]

The greens are already focused on shutting down most air travel. Yet you think they will still allow you to fly your bug smashers?

The first “revealed truth” is that greens hate air travel. The second is that politicians will look for scapegoats and others to sacrifice at the greenies altar.

I would have thought you will be the first group thrown under the bus by politicians as they struggle to keep the eco-terrorists in check.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_aviation

[Cleared Visual]

The greens are already focused on shutting down most air travel. Yet you think they will still allow you to fly your bug smashers?

The first “revealed truth” is that greens hate air travel. The second is that politicians will look for scapegoats and others to sacrifice at the greenies altar.

I would have thought you will be the first group thrown under the bus by politicians as they struggle to keep the eco-terrorists in check.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_aviation

The Greens have taken some pretty extreme positions. I dont think they could ever form a credible government and Labor just recently got schooled in the pitfalls of trying to cosy up to them at the expense of their base. But offering equally extreme, opposite positions only encourages further divisions and stymies a sensible level of action. If the govt accepted that the majority see climate change as a real issue, maybe they could propose some sensible policies that appeal to the very broad middle ground? I'm still young enough that i will have to live with the cost of inaction. I want to see something meaningful done to address it. But i also recognise with our geography, General Aviation is an essential service for many reasons. I also recognise that without industries like mining, the economy is doomed (and with it our standard of living). I eat meat, I drive a V8. And i am not in the minority.

If the Greens hadn't voted against the original ETS, a sensible, market based mechanism with bipartisan support (until the LNP decided bipartisanship didnt play well in the party room), we probably wouldn't be having this discussion. Instead we got an ill conceived compromise by an unpopular pop-up PM that never had time to be judged on it's results... The next unpopular pop-up PM dismantled it for the sake of ideology and a (largely unrealised) reduction in power bills. Both sides pissed a lot of people my age off. The dysfunction, hoodwinking and navel-gazing in our system will drive people to radical alternatives like the Greens (or Pauline) faster than Greta ever will. At their own peril of course, but people rarely vote in their own best interests anyway.

[rcoight]

I think the best way to de-Hitlerise this discussion is to observe that the worst excesses of human behavior towards other humans have been instigated by people who have been able to convince their followers that they are in possession of the "revealed truth" contained in some grand mystical theory and that therefore their beastliness is sanctified by the "the ends justify the means" argument.

Correct.

The climate change religion is just the latest way for the usual suspects to pursue their agenda.
And as usual there is a percentage of people who are happy to go along with the group-think.
in fact, even questioning it is heresy! Like any other religion.

Thankfully before too much longer it will be exposed for the fraud that it is.

[Okihara]

Correct.

The climate change religion is just the latest way for the usual suspects to pursue their agenda.
And as usual there is a percentage of people who are happy to go along with the group-think.
in fact, even questioning it is heresy! Like any other religion.

Thankfully before too much longer it will be exposed for the fraud that it is.

Questioning... climate change? A religion? Isn't there heaps of hardcore scientific evidence that climate is indeed a process and that is changing now at a more rapid pace than ever before? Or am I reading the wrong news?

[junior.VH-LFA]

This has been good entertainment for the night.

[rcoight]

Questioning... climate change? A religion? Isn't there heaps of hardcore scientific evidence that climate is indeed a process and that is changing now at a more rapid pace than ever before? Or am I reading the wrong news?

If you know anything at all about science you should know that it is all about questioning.

And, yes.

You should stop getting your news from the ABC and The Project.

[De_flieger]

If you know anything at all about science you should know that it is all about questioning.

And, yes.

You should stop getting your news from the ABC and The Project.

Yes, get it from reputable sources like NASA (https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/) , the CSIRO (https://www.csiro.au/en/Research/OandA/Areas/Oceans-and-climate/Climate-change-information) , the Bureau of Meteorology (http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/change/#tabs=Tracker&tracker=timeseries) or NOAA (https://www.climate.gov/) instead. Much more reliable.

[De_flieger]

If I am right, the next stage is to proscribe all non carbon neutral recreational activities.
It's pretty safe to say you aren't. Have you considered discussing your concerns with your friendly local DAME?

[Okihara]

If you know anything at all about science you should know that it is all about questioning.

And, yes.

You should stop getting your news from the ABC and The Project.

Look mate, here are three easy statements that most climate skeptics should ponder for as long as their attention span allows and try to answer truthfully:
1. Are you going to hurt the planet by adopting a more environmentally friendly way of life? Hint: probably not.
2. Can you really afford to be wrong about your current views on the climate? Hint: probably not either.
3. Do you actually have a plan if climate change was confirmed?

Regarding science and questioning: questioning is used to establish facts, I hope we'll agree on that. Questioning well established facts is fine for the purpose of the exercise but doesn't serve science. Sowing doubt with easy to sell arguments for short term profit against those career scientists who placed research first also serves no good. Anyway, once you have the facts, you move on and question more things and get more facts. At least that how we were taught, in my science degrees. Then you may ask: Ah-ha! But what is a fact but a consensus between people? To which I say: True, what defines consensus then? What level of agreement are you happy with? Questioning facts à la Trump, i.e. have a very, very, very, ..., very strong and solid chance of being just true is perhaps a symptom of your own limitations for mistaking hypocrisy for legitimate questioning. And I mean no offence by this. This world is obviously populated by a lot people with strongly limited intellects or else we wouldn't see a Trump or a Scomo speak about climate instead of climate scientists in the first place.

For those interested, the NYT remains a fine source of news.

[Okihara]

More on the point of science, I'm also a believer that responses to climate change should be on many fronts. For those who don't know, carbon capture is already a reality and only needs a bit of push from governments. See this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHX9pmQ6m_s

Until slow and incremental improvements to batteries allow us to ditch AVGAS once and for all, I think that Australia is both rich and large enough to build a few of those carbon capture plants. They certainly look cooler than coal power plants!

[ramble on]

Carbon capture plants?? What?

Do you mean replanting all the fecking trees that have been bulldozed in the past 200 years.

There's not much more efficient carbon sink than a quick growing plant and we are killing them too..

[The name is Porter]

Oh, lay off Sunny. Prune would be as boring as bat**** without him.

[Sunfish]

Still think that politicians won’t do some grandstanding knee jerk but popular stupid move?

NSW Police Inspector Gary Coffey said "it’s a very big crowd", and later told the Herald there were an estimated 20,000 people in attendance.Protesters march in Sydney to demand climate change action (https://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/protesters-march-in-sydney-to-demand-climate-change-action-20191211-h1kbt4.html)

Chloe Rafferty, one of the organisers, said she was angry about the lack of climate action from all levels of government.


"The state is angry, Sydney is angry," she said. "I have hope that people will see the need to take action into their own hands and disrupt business as usual, we can't let the biggest city in Australia having hazardous air quality become the new normal."

High school student Amy Lamont addressed the thousands of protesters wearing P2 face masks and said: "The reality is these fires will be around all summer."

"The rage we all rightly feel right now needs to grow if we have any chance of actually challenging that destruction of the status quo that is burning around us," she said.

"Only we, the majority, have the ability to hold the rich and political elites in this country accountable.......



https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/sydney-is-angry-protesters-march-to-demand-urgent-action-on-climate-change-20191211-p53iyc.html

[Pearly White]

*WARNING*
The below is an idea posited simply to encourage thinking. It contains no traces of conspiracy, however a smidgen of insanitythas been included for S&^ts and giggles.
For your own sake, please don't read any further if you're lacking an imagination.

Ideas for Engaging Flights of Fancy, or How To Get Younger Folks Interested in Aviation
Idea #1 - The Great Electric Celebrity Air Race ( Copyright 2019 Vne Productions)

Synopsis
A million dollar cash prize is offered to the team who successfully circumnavigates Australia in the shortest elapsed time and with the smallest overall carbon footprint. Only aircraft powered by electricity will be permitted to compete, however race officials and support crews will travel in conventional aircraft, which will be coincidentally measured for their carbon footprint throughout the race as an interesting comparison. Competitors will start and finish at a predetermined location, with only the next immediate destination known in advance. Intermediate landings to recharge anywhere along the route may be taken as the team requires.

Accompanying each pilot will be some sort of minor celebrity or better, a politician who is to assist with navigation, flight planning, ground handling, cooking, cracking jokes, departure preparations, packing, cleaning and so on. As the teams reach each destination, the next one will be revealed to them. Think a combination of Top Gear Challenges, I'm a celebrity, get me out of here and a Bear Grylls type survival show.

Each aircraft and pilot/navigator will be fitted with cameras and mics, data from which will be uploaded in real time where possible, or after each landing, then edited/packaged and televised in a 30 min TV show each evening. Think Big Brother reality show TV here. Each team will have a 4-person ground based support team, whose role it is to manage the teams social media postings and updates on a moment by moment basis. These folks will similarly be filmed and form part of the overall TV package. The importance of these support teams will become apparent.

The route will cover all of the major regional centres and big cities in order to avoid remote regions where internet bandwidth is limited/not available, but the order in which they will visit them will only be revealed incrementally, e.g as the leading competitor reaches the next town. Thus the slower aircraft will have a much advanced warning of where they are going to visit, compared to the leaders. This is important, because it is incumbent on the competitors to recharge their craft in the most environmentally “clean” fashion possible.

As recharging the aircraft has a carbon footprint, points will be lost according to how this is done. Use a diesel generator = lose heaps of points, use solar panels = lose almost no points. Ship replacement charged batteries by truck (once the next destination is known) = lose some points, send by train = lose not as many points as by truck. You get the idea I’m sure.

The winning team will be successful by engaging each destinations community via social media, in order to get them to assist the teams in recharging the aircraft with the smallest possible carbon footprint. Ingenuity, organisational and social media skills will be crucial. For example, if a team could mobilise folks to hastily construct a low carbon footprint charging arrangement such as a treadmill powered generator, firstly I would laugh my head off and secondly, they would lose no points. Or maybe an alternate destination that has a grid powered by wind generators might be a good option to recharge. It may not be a point to point race, many diversions may occur. It would become a "peoples race" after a fashion.

The race would be run over a three to four week period, the public could vote online each day for the most popular team, who could potentially earn carbon offset credits. Where possible, destination landing areas would be outside of main airfields (think paddocks, fields, race tracks etc , in order that accessibility to the public could be maximised. Just like the good old days. There would be surprise challenges, twist and turns thrown in.
Support for the race will be manifold, everyone from the TV networks (advertising bonanza) , CASA, local government administrations, right through to the PMO would be on board. It would be a clear demonstration of a commitment to the environment, to innovation, to regional cities and towns, celebrities, social media, tourism (imagine the footage), and most importantly, aviation would be front and centre.

I need to pitch this to someone after I’ve had a lie down..anyone got Dick's number?










Check your private messages

[Josh Cox]

https://youtu.be/lMfYjKauHbs