Orange2fly A320 Alpha floor on approach to Muscat

[Check Airman]

Would be interested to read the report on this one, to see why the captain elected to continue the approach.

Incident: Orange2fly A320 at Muscat on Jan 28th 2019, Alpha Floor on approach at 210 feet AGL (http://avherald.com/h?article=4cf929d9&opt=0)

For those who don’t speak French, alpha floor is the hard AoA protection.

[AerocatS2A]

And why did he disconnect the A/T in the first place, training?

[macdo]

Sounds like the Skipper wanted the FO to do a manual thrust landing (in training?) but forgot to remind the FO that the Athr was off when handing over control. Poor old FO probably put his/her hands on the TL's and did what was normal, ie no movement of the levers til reverse idle! You can see how it could happen, but its poor standards whatever the explanation.

[Check Airman]

Sounds like the Skipper wanted the FO to do a manual thrust landing (in training?) but forgot to remind the FO that the Athr was off when handing over control. Poor old FO probably put his/her hands on the TL's and did what was normal, ie no movement of the levers til reverse idle! You can see how it could happen, but its poor standards whatever the explanation.

Interesting theory. More than once, I’ve thought that when flying with the AT on, I’d be better off with my hand on my lap than on the thrust levers. There’s really no benefit to having your hand on the levers for most situations.

[misd-agin]

Hands on the thrust levers is pointless on the Airbus. It has a lot more value on the aircraft with moving throttles like the Boeing's. Shades of the Korean 777 crash into SFO - exactly what scan was used that never noticed the N1's were at idle and below expected N1's for the approach? What scan was used looking at the speed trend arrow below VLS, then in the zipper, then just prior to achieving ALPHA FLOOR? Aimpoint, airspeed, power has been FLYING 101 forever. It shouldn't change because of autothrottles but the <sad> reality is it has.

[EcamSurprise]

Or rushed approach so CM1 takes control with AP/AT off. Back on profile CM1 hands over control to CM2 but they forgot to re-engage AT.

It’s happened before and it’ll probably happen again.

[vilas]

Approach is flown in a lateral and vertical profile but also at certain speed. It's not enough to only manage the profiles. In Bangalore A320 crash static thrust levers with no tactile feed back approach was flown at Vapp-27 kts. alpha floor at 135ft simultaneous TOGA selected but crashed as engines were spooling up toTOGA thrust. In SFO moving throttles (which were at idle through out) plenty of feed back the approach was flown at Vapp-30kts. aircraft crashed during late goaround attempt. Whether it's A or B you cannot fly an approach without frequent glances at your speed. If it's not what it should be then get it there yourself.

[AerocatS2A]

Hands on the thrust levers is pointless on the Airbus. It has a lot more value on the aircraft with moving throttles like the Boeing's.
Disagree. You have your hands on the thrust levers because they are yours and if the A/T isn’t behaving, your hands are there ready to fix it. Same reason you have your hand on the side stick.

[macdo]

Unfortunately, this is one of those 'environmental capture' dangers that is inherent to the Airbus. You are used to the TL's being just switches to command the Fadecs at certain phases of flight. So, Take off, Cruise and Landing become switch positions, what the engine is actually doing is being handled by the computers. Generally, I was taught to have hands on the TL's up to V1, below 1500' agl and at any time that the autothrust is off. The last one should remind you that the athr is off because it feels 'odd' or non standard to have your hands on them and requesting PM to do Hdg,MCDU and Alt changes for you. I'm aware of a similar occurrence to this one on the 330, where a break down in situational awareness with athr off resulted in a 'scare'.

[390cruise]

The great mystery........

why would anyone turn the auto thrust off?

[macdo]

The great mystery........

why would anyone turn the auto thrust off?

To execute a manual thrust landing in the appropriate conditions.
Use it or lose it skill, and having a go in the sim every 6 months doesn't cut it.
This incident might, only might, not have happened if the FO had been more familiar with manual thrust flying.

[Duchess_Driver]

Fundamental breakdown in MCC - bad enough that the PF let it happen but the PM not monitoring...

[PH-TIM]

The great mystery........

why would anyone turn the auto thrust off?

In my company the policy is: manual flight, manual thrust.

[cessnapete]

As it should be. In airlines that mandate SOPs for full time A/T at all times in route flying ( BA for example ,all types except B744)
The crews never fly the aircraft ‘manually, Manual flying defined as manual control of flight path and speed.

[misd-agin]

The great mystery........

why would anyone turn the auto thrust off?

Manual skill retention.
Because no pilot hunts for the right power, more, less, more, less, more, less, more, less, than a/t's do in gusty or thermal conditions.
Does anyone have stable power criteria in their SOP's for Airbus' with the A/T on? The A/T's do power corrections no pilot is allowed to do using manual thrust, like idle at 350', because it's gotten tired of being 8 kts fast. No pilot would make that drastic an adjustment.
s

[cwatters]

The great mystery........

why would anyone turn the auto thrust off?

On AVHerald some commentators say moving the TL to idle causes the A/T to disengage. Others disagree. Which is it?

[Locked door]

On AVHerald some commentators say moving the TL to idle causes the A/T to disengage. Others disagree. Which is it?

The idlers have it correct.

[CDRW]

In my company the policy is: manual flight, manual thrust.
A sensible pro-active company.

[Check Airman]

A sensible pro-active company.

Agreed. Would much rather fly for (or on) that airline, than some of the others that treat manual flight as though it’s some degraded level of safety.

[Check Airman]

Manual skill retention.
Because no pilot hunts for the right power, more, less, more, less, more, less, more, less, than a/t's do in gusty or thermal conditions.
Does anyone have stable power criteria in their SOP's for Airbus' with the A/T on? The A/T's do power corrections no pilot is allowed to do using manual thrust, like idle at 350', because it's gotten tired of being 8 kts fast. No pilot would make that drastic an adjustment.
s

Somebody at my company raised the question of the AT going to idle below 1000ft. I believe our training department’s answer was that it was ok. I have my doubts though. In times like those, I curse Airbus’ design of the autothrust.

[giggitygiggity]

In my company the policy is: manual flight, manual thrust.

Congratulations! Although I’ll let you into a secret... Airbus ‘policy’ is to use maximum automation. Obviously we should all be familiar with manual thrust and capable of employing it whenever desired or required. But as a blanket policy, forcing pilots to pretend that auto thrust is only to be used in the case of an automatic landing is short-sighted. Where does your company draw the line? I assume it’s FACs off passing 100ft? It’s like this manual thrust policy is designed to simply let pilots think (assume) they’re better than the competition because they’re ‘going old school’. I’m not sure how it serves the advancement of safety. You should be comfortable flying the aircraft IAW the manufacturers design.

[Denti]

I‘d rather train autothrust on landings every six months in the sim and keep my manual skills up than the other way round.

[hans brinker]

er? flown one much?
There are 2 ways to disconnect A/T on the 320 series. One (and don't try this at home..) is to push the A/T pushbutton on the FCP. The other is to use the 'Instinctive Disconnect' switches on the TL*
Moving the T/Ls to the Idle detent doe NOT disconnect auto thrust.
The thrust lever position is an auothrust limit only.
As in this case, Autothrust was indeed available and commanded TOGA even though the PF had apparently disconnected it by one of the above means. Alpha Floor is a function of Autothrust.....
*OK, manually going to TOGA does disconnect A/T but it's armed. semantics :-)
Not sure what plane (or planet) you are on, but I fly the A320 and the last few thousand times I did, I do remember the AT disconnecting every single time I pulled the throttles to idle.

Also, although the preferred (by AB) method is to push the ID buttons, if you use the FCP button, the thrust will be locked, and if you push the ID button the thrust will go to max CLB, so depending on the situation, the FCP button will be much less of a "don't try this at home" moment.

[Denti]

er? flown one much?
There are 2 ways to disconnect A/T on the 320 series. One (and don't try this at home..) is to push the A/T pushbutton on the FCP. The other is to use the 'Instinctive Disconnect' switches on the TL*
Moving the T/Ls to the Idle detent doe NOT disconnect auto thrust.
The thrust lever position is an auothrust limit only.
As in this case, Autothrust was indeed available and commanded TOGA even though the PF had apparently disconnected it by one of the above means. Alpha Floor is a function of Autothrust.....
*OK, manually going to TOGA does disconnect A/T but it's armed. semantics :-)

I hope you are not a professional pilot flying the A320 series. Straight from the FCOM:

"The A/THR can be disconnected in two ways:
- Standard disconnection:

The flight crew pushes the instinctive disconnect pb on the thrust levers,
The flight crew sets both thrust levers to IDLE detent.
- Non-standard disconnection:

The flight crew pushes the A/THR pb on the FCU while A/THR is active/armed, or
The system loses one of the arming conditions"
If you are a professional pilot flying the A320 series, demand your money back, clearly your training was not very good at all, and please read up on primary human machine interfaces of the A320 series, this is elementary knowledge and, as in this case, can lead to rather embarrassing incidents.

By the way, Alpha floor is available after disconnection via the instinctive pbs as well, except if the system is deactivated via a 15 second hold on the instinctive disconnect pb.

[EcamSurprise]

Closing the thrust levers DOES disconnect the Autothrust.

Disconnecting the Autothrust with the FCU PB will cause the Autothrust to disco but thrust is locked in the setting it was in, until the thrust lever disco buttons are pressed or Autothrust is re-engaged.

Alphafloor is available even if Autothrust is not engaged. It isn’t available f Autothrust has been perm de-activated (>15s on the TLs buttons) or if Autothrust has failed.

[Check Airman]

Congratulations! Although I’ll let you into a secret... Airbus ‘policy’ is to use maximum automation. Obviously we should all be familiar with manual thrust and capable of employing it whenever desired or required. But as a blanket policy, forcing pilots to pretend that auto thrust is only to be used in the case of an automatic landing is short-sighted. Where does your company draw the line? I assume it’s FACs off passing 100ft? It’s like this manual thrust policy is designed to simply let pilots think (assume) they’re better than the competition because they’re ‘going old school’. I’m not sure how it serves the advancement of safety. You should be comfortable flying the aircraft IAW the manufacturers design.

Not about feeling superior. It takes appropriately 1 approach to get accustomed to having the AT on, if you usually have it off. The opposite is not true.

Using maximum automation all day every day is a recipe for disaster. You agree that we should be familiar with manual thrust, so as to be able to employ it if and when required. Where’s your line in the sand? Under what conditions would you consider it ok to use manual thrust?

[Check Airman]

I‘d rather train autothrust on landings every six months in the sim and keep my manual skills up than the other way round.

Spot on!

10 characters

[PH-TIM]

Obviously we should all be familiar with manual thrust and capable of employing it whenever desired or required. But as a blanket policy, forcing pilots to pretend that auto thrust is only to be used in the case of an automatic landing is short-sighted. Where does your company draw the line? I assume it’s FACs off passing 100ft?

So, are you familiar and capable flying with manual thrust? I think it's much easier flying a heavy abnormal when you are already used to flying with manual thrust, as you can focus on the real problems.

I think I just don't comment on your last sentence :hmm:.

[AerocatS2A]

Thrust lever to idle is my standard way of disconnecting A/T on approach. I wait for A/T to command idle then bring the thrust levers back to idle (it saves matching the donuts then pressing the disconnects). A/T disconnects and FMA for A/T is blank. Do the A320s you fly have some kind of mod? What does your FCOM say?

[Icelanta]

Congratulations! Although I’ll let you into a secret... Airbus ‘policy’ is to use maximum automation. Obviously we should all be familiar with manual thrust and capable of employing it whenever desired or required. But as a blanket policy, forcing pilots to pretend that auto thrust is only to be used in the case of an automatic landing is short-sighted. Where does your company draw the line? I assume it’s FACs off passing 100ft? It’s like this manual thrust policy is designed to simply let pilots think (assume) they’re better than the competition because they’re ‘going old school’. I’m not sure how it serves the advancement of safety. You should be comfortable flying the aircraft IAW the manufacturers design.
never have I’ve seen bigger nonsense on Pprune than in the reply above.
Manual flight= manual thrust. And this IS approved and even encouraged by Airbus.
Airbus does NOT have “ use of maximum automatisation “ as policy. On the contrary mon cher.

[neilki]

never have I’ve seen bigger nonsense on Pprune than in the reply above.
Manual flight= manual thrust. And this IS approved and even encouraged by Airbus.
Airbus does NOT have “ use of maximum automatisation “ as policy. On the contrary mon cher.
sadly many operators do... but she’s a dream to hand
fly

[the_stranger]

AerocatS2A (https://www.pprune.org/members/81689-aerocats2a) if you're addressing me... that's my point... you use the disconnect buttons to. disconnect the AT... its not a requirement to disconnect the AT to land, and it will remain engaged if you dont..... -with the TLA at idle around the Retard Calls....

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x905/img_20191125_122801_2_4b2e665ca0939936a47935a9bb3d2a8e78dab4 a5.jpg
This is from an a330 fcom...

[neilki]

This is from an a330 fcom...
DSC-22_30-90-B-00011961.0001001
well I stand corrected; but this is inconsistent with other parts of the FCOM.. surely once disconnected it needs to be ‘reconnected’ why do they say disconnected, not armed.. because it will arm once TOGA is selected...?

[Scagrams]

DSC-22_30-90-B-00011961.0001001
well I stand corrected; but this is inconsistent with other parts of the FCOM.. surely once disconnected it needs to be ‘reconnected’ why do they say disconnected, not armed.. because it will arm once TOGA is selected...?



"The flight crew arms A/THR:
‐ On ground
• By pushing the A/THR pb on the FCU when the engines are not running, or
• By setting the thrust levers at the FLX or TOGA detent when the engines are running.
‐ In flight
• By pushing the A/THR pb on the FCU while the thrust levers are out of the active range, or
• While A/THR is active (“A/THR” white on the FMA), by setting all thrust levers beyond the CL detent or at least one lever above the MCT detent, or
• By engaging the go around mode"

DSC-22_30-90-00011958.0001001 - ATHR arming conditions...

So even if being ATHR OFF, when you go TOGA for the go around, it will arm itself again...and actiavte when reducing to LVR CLB...
Otherwise imagine a balked landing go around, where you'd also have to think about arming ATHR afterwards? Nah

[Check Airman]

DSC-22_30-90-B-00011961.0001001
well I stand corrected; but this is inconsistent with other parts of the FCOM.. surely once disconnected it needs to be ‘reconnected’ why do they say disconnected, not armed.. because it will arm once TOGA is selected...?

It’s not inconsistent. Poorly worded, perhaps. Alpha floor is available as long as AT is available. So even though you’ve disconnected it, the alpha floor function is still passively lurking in the background, ready to activate, as it did in this incident.

Had they disabled the autothrust, Alpha floor would not have been available. Makes sense?

Om the topic of using the FCU push button to disconnect, I haven’t read anything to suggest there’s anything inherently dangerous in doing that. You’ll just get THR LOCKED. I understand why they’d consider it non standard.

[AerocatS2A]

Well I'm glad we got that sorted out.

[cptkris]

Because the speed holding ability of the bus is quite lacking in certain phases of flight. Being comfortable with disconnecting both or either the AP and ATHR can save a lot of headaches with flap over speeds etc.

ive personally seen it both go trending way below green dot, and also well into overspeed territory had myself, or the officer not intervened.

I.e. Airbus golden rule No 4

[Retired DC9 driver]

Because the speed holding ability of the bus is quite lacking in certain phases of flight. Being comfortable with disconnecting both or either the AP and ATHR can save a lot of headaches with flap over speeds etc.


I would regularly, hand fly the 319/320/321 with A/T Active. Never saw the Speed Mode go wonky. Say Expressway Visual into KLGA, , at Peths go , "Auto Pilot Off", "Flight Directors Off" , "Speed Push", then Gear Down , Landing check. Hand fly, along the Long Island expressway, in Speed Mode. Pick up the VASI rolling out on final...
Same going into Las Vegas from the East, for the 19L/19R Visuals, or Slam Dunk into KSFO, from the North, ... "have you got the San Mateo bridge? cleared Quiet Bridge Visual..At that point, you better dive down, Autopilot Off, Flight Directors Off, Speed Push in the right turn.. Forget the Flight Directors "OFF" and you could be in a world of hurt..

Maybe you forgot to Activate Approach first, once..then when you go "Speed Push", the engines roar up to give you 250 knots..

[EI_DVM]

I would regularly, hand fly the 319/320/321 with A/T Active. Never saw the Speed Mode go wonky. Say Expressway Visual into KLGA, , at Peths go , "Auto Pilot Off", "Flight Directors Off" , "Speed Push", then Gear Down , Landing check. Hand fly, along the Long Island expressway, in Speed Mode. Pick up the VASI rolling out on final...
Same going into Las Vegas from the East, for the 19L/19R Visuals, or Slam Dunk into KSFO, from the North, ... "have you got the San Mateo bridge? cleared Quiet Bridge Visual..At that point, you better dive down, Autopilot Off, Speed Push in the right turn..

Maybe you forgot to Activate Approach once..then when you go "Speed Push", the engines roar up to 250 knots..

I don't understand what you're getting at here? Are you saying you would fly these approaches with manual thrust or that you wouldn't feel comfortable flying them with manual thrust and instead use auto-thrust?

Personally, I would be of the opinion that if you don't fly these approaches with manual thrust, even on perhaps more challenging days, albeit with everything working normally, how can you count on yourself to fly them manually on the days where things may not be working perfectly and you're forced to do them manually for the first time?

Any sensible company policy should recognise this and thus encourage maximum appropriate use of manual thrust on all approach types, not just ILS to ILS, so that if they have to be done in anger due to systems failure/downgrade it's second nature to the pilots flying them, and doesn't eat up any additional capacity, as it's ingrained in the muscle memory not something that requires any extra thought, like riding a bike.

[Retired DC9 driver]

Auto Thrust on in speed mode. Autopilot off. Less workload, in the busy New York environment. Though I would fly with both Auto Thrust/ Auto Pilot off, sometimes.. I found, after the DC-9 where thrust was ALWAYS manual, the Airbus, thrust levers were quite sensitive, and I didn't have all the power settings "memorized" for different flaps settings, configurations, unlike the DC-9.
I flew the B-767,- 200 and 300 (FADEC) much more with BOTH Autopilot and Autothrust off.

[the_stranger]

I don't understand what you're getting at here? Are you saying you would fly these approaches with manual thrust or that you wouldn't feel comfortable flying them with manual thrust and instead use auto-thrust?

Personally, I would be of the opinion that if you don't fly these approaches with manual thrust, even on perhaps more challenging days, albeit with everything working normally, how can you count on yourself to fly them manually on the days where things may not be working perfectly and you're forced to do them manually for the first time?

Any sensible company policy should recognise this and thus encourage maximum appropriate use of manual thrust on all approach types, not just ILS to ILS, so that if they have to be done in anger due to systems failure/downgrade it's second nature to the pilots flying them, and doesn't eat up any additional capacity, as it's ingrained in the muscle memory not something that requires any extra thought, like riding a bike.
Isn't it a matter of risk and probability?
When was the last time the autothrust went bust? The last 10 years I had exactly zero issues on multiple airplanes.
The number of visuals approaches 13l/r at JFK isn't much higher though and I found them challenging, both because of the inexperience and the environment (atc, weather). Combined with a pilot next to me with as much experience with this approach, I do think it is safer all around to use automation as much as you are comfortable with and save the practice for the sim and other, less demanding, approaches.

I fly 99% of the approaches fully manual (when weather allows), but do make exeptions for some places and circumstances.