Further damage to GA by airport operators

[Dick Smith]

I’m not sure if others have noticed how many more restrictions are being introduced in relation to airports – particularly in relation to prior notice. Here is a short list I have made up and I’m sure others will be able to add to it.

Mt Isa (48 hours prior notice required)
Townsville (48 hours prior notice required)
Warnervale (24 hours prior notice required)
Ayers Rock (24 hours prior notice required)
Gympie (prior notice required, contact operator)

And the following airports require Julia Gillard vests:

Horn Island
Wynyard
Mt Isa

[zanthrus]

Simple just ignore them fly there land and then fly away. There is nothing they can do to you.

[Vag277]

So what is the damage?

[Squawk7700]

So what is the damage?

Pilots will not want to land there due to the administrative overhead and likewise they will bypass them at all costs when they need to land there, for fear of penalties and or excessive costs. That is a safety risk. Sure, you may say it’s up to the pilot to conduct the flight safely, however flying is dynamic and things often change mid flight !

[On Track]

The Howard government still has a lot to answer for. Privatisation NEVER made anything better.

Bring back the Federal Airports Corporation and nationalise them all!

[Horatio Leafblower]

Council Airports:

"The airport isn't public infrastructure! It's a business and aircraft operators are valued customers!"

Also Council Airports:

"We are going to treat our captive market in a way that no business in the real world could ever treat a Customer with any choice"

[junior.VH-LFA]

This is one thing I agree with you on.

[Lead Balloon]

When the operator of a toll road says: “You must give 48 hours’ notice of your intention to use our road”, I will say: “F*ck you and your toll road.”

Unfortunately, the stultifying mediocrities that presume the title “government” these days do not understand the long term value of a vibrant GA sector.

[Head..er..wind]

I’m pretty sure that Devonport also want you to wear the vest. Some little tinpot dictators love to enforce the rule by yelling out! I don’t think the situation is helped by some flying groups issuing them as part of membership

[KRviator]

Warnervale 24H PPR via email.
Cessnock: Plane-proof hi-vis vest required, even though not mentioned in the ERSA - it's in Councils User Guidelines... (https://www.pprune.org/[url=https://www.cessnock.nsw.gov.au/resources/file/Policy/Website%20Policy/Cessnock%20Airport%20Operational%20Policy%20%20User%20Guidel ines%20-%20Last%20Updated%20-%2019%20June%202015.pdf)

[Mr Approach]

I did not check them all but Mt. Isa is only PPR if you want to park the aircraft - a bit like getting a hotel reservation I suppose, or do you just show up and expect there will be an empty room somewhere?
The hi-viz vest is a reasonable precaution when wandering unaccompanied around active airports - any hazard analysis would come up with such a mitigation - and if they don't ask for it then you could sue them if you a have an accident.

[Pinky the pilot]

and if they don't ask for it then you could sue them if you a have an accident.

An accident such as.......??

[PoppaJo]

Cairns now have a landing fee of $350 should your trusty 172 wish to land during the middle of the day. They also hiked yearly aircraft parking fees from a few hundred bucks to $18000 a year.

Even more bizarre, CEO Kevin Brown went on the defensive when the media grilled him...he quoted “instead wants to provide opportunities for operators to develop thriving and sustainable businesses.”

:ugh:

[SOPS]

What will happen when they finally kill off the Goose?

[KRviator]

Sell it off to developers??

[RatsoreA]

Yeah, I go to a few of those places, Mt Isa for example, and the guy tries to give you a lecture but there is nothing they can do. To be perfectly accurate, they only need 48 hours to park in the bays, not for itinerant parking area. But they whine about how your dressed...

Cairns, on the other hand, the private consortium that owns that wants everyone on the GA side gone, off to Mareeba, so they can sell/lease the land to DFO’s/shops for tourists, that’s why they jacked up the price.

[machtuk]

Australia the lucky country, providing you are NOT involved in aviation!

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Mt Isa: notice is required only for those requiring GA parking
Townsville: the RAAF run it so I guess they can stipulate whatever they want
The rest? I guess it's a way of getting the details of who is using their airport, probably as a result of pilots who think:
Simple just ignore them fly there land and then fly away. There is nothing they can do to you.
and therefore in all likelihood don't use the radio, or pay their bills.

Cessnock have had the requirement for Hi-vis since 2015. The Council Airport Policy is a very comprehensive 18 page document. Pity probably almost no one knows it exists. They've had 4 years to get a reference to it added to ERSA.

[Okihara]

Have hi-vis vests ever been useful in preventing accidents? Is there any incontrovertible data on the matter? I see people with and without such attire walking around MB all the time. Unless someone's skin is apron-coloured, I can't say they're hard to notice.

[Trevor the lover]

Yeah and if pilot shirts were green we'd all be made to wear white hi vis vests

[illusion]

Aviators are not the only ones getting slugged.


https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/you-can-t-avoid-these-tolls-higher-rates-for-unhappy-campers-20191030-p535uz.html

somehow I don't your situation will elicit much support in the broader community.

[The name is Porter]

Australia the lucky country When you know the context of that quote you'll understand how appropriate it is to this thread.

[ramble on]

Australia Incorporated - it’s been the “Great Australian Selloff” over my lifetime.

I would happily pay fees for anything if I knew that what I was paying for was a public asset and those fees were for ploughed back into that infrastructure.

Now, our country’s infrastructure is just another source of profit for Big Business. Instead of a government truly governing with a capital G everything is in the hands of private enterprise and short term profit is king.

This brand of Capitalism is truly short sighted and we are on a slippery steep slope downward.

[ramble on]

And on Transurban, I am doing my bit....I don’t use toll roads.

[aroa]

Anna Blight- on- the- Landscape flogged of Cairns airport for abt 1/2 its real value, and annually it was contributing millions to the Govt/Taxpayers coffers. The sale price was claimed to be for a new Cairns Hospital further inland from the coast...which never happened.
She also put on a song and dance at YMBA...just prior to the election.. as a vote buying exercise offered 15 mil for an upgrade. That didnt happen then either.
Lost the election tho' ...but no matter, slides into a fab sinecure as CEO of Bankers Association.
THe Lucky Country?... for some. I think we now have UN status as an NDBR....Newly Developing Banana Republic.

[bankrunner]

Have hi-vis vests ever been useful in preventing accidents? Is there any incontrovertible data on the matter? I see people with and without such attire walking around MB all the time. Unless someone's skin is apron-coloured, I can't say they're hard to notice.

I once had a ARO spot me, and drive over from the other side of the field to give me a lecture for not wearing a high vis vest.

[Capt Fathom]

Which goes to show, you don't need a hi vis vest to be seen!

[Squawk7700]

I once had a ARO spot me, and drive over from the other side of the field to give me a lecture for not wearing a high vis vest.

Is that written somewhere? Can’t see it in ERSA.

[bankrunner]

I don't think it's written anywhere at all. Old mate must have been having a slow day.

[Aussie Bob]

The hi-viz vest is a reasonable precaution when wandering unaccompanied around active airports - any hazard analysis would come up with such a mitigation - and if they don't ask for it then you could sue them if you a have an accident.

Blimey :uhoh: :uhoh: Is that tongue in cheek or are you serious? Perhaps you are judging others on your own abilities or lack thereof?

[aroa]

1..Jeez...why stop at a Dayglo Fashion Statement.?
Hard Hard... you could get stuck by debris thrown up by prop wash or jet blast, head protection
Flack jacket..body protection re same
Ear Muffs... for the 'safety' protection of your hearing...jet noise etc.
Steel cap shoes ...could get yr foot run over.
Safety goggles...gotta protect yr eyes from dust, grit.n.sh*t as a result of 1.

A 150 page Reg doc regarding, will stipulate a strict liability offence that on leaving the aircraft not such attired will be 100 penalty points or confiscation of the aircraft. Dont larf !
2. We really do need a revolution.

[Ironpot]

I once had a ARO spot me, and drive over from the other side of the field to give me a lecture for not wearing a high vis vest.

ditto but because my ASIC was back to front i.e. the back was showing.

In mitigation I think the AFP were on the field somewhere.

[The name is Porter]

In mitigation I think the AFP were on the field somewhere.

I doubt they would have picked it up.

[YPJT]

Ho hum, another week - another grenade lobbed by Dick.
isn't the hi viz requirement somewhere in CAOs? Although I think it only applies if walking across taxiways.

[Victa Bravo]

Can someone tell me what would actually happen should someone land without the appropriate notice given? Bit different for you Dick I would imagine as aerodrome operators would quickly run off to the media whinging Dick's not playing by the rules waaa waaa... but how could a fella be punished if he just lobbed up ???

[YPJT]

Can someone tell me what would actually happen should someone land without the appropriate notice given??

has anyone actually called the airports mentioned and inquired as to the reasons for the PN requirements?

a lot of airports have it, I just called ahead and they said yup no problem it’s just so we can manage the available parking space.
One Pilbara airport a few years back had a flying circus turn up unannounced which created problems with keeping the RPT bays clear of infringements. ARO did a good job of squeezing them in. Not sure if the required distances were met though.

As for hi viz. you can’t go to any workplace these days to areas which are not generally accessible to the public without one. Argue all you like about whether or not they are necessary but it will not be you in the witness box explaining to counsel at an inquest as to the reasons why you did not find it necessary to impose a simple mitigation measure

[thorn bird]

Passengers sometimes walk across an apron.
Why are they not required to wear Hi Viz?
As far as I'm aware, since 1945, only one person has been struck by
a vehicle on an apron and killed, and he was wearing high viz.
Is a pilots white shirt any harder to see than a yellow high Viz against a black apron?
Given the number of pedestrians killed each year on our footpaths, should all
pedestrians not be required to wear High Viz?
Will OH&S issues eventually destroy the Australian economy?

[Pearly White]

Passengers sometimes walk across an apron.
Why are they not required to wear Hi Viz?
As far as I'm aware, since 1945, only one person has been struck by
a vehicle on an apron and killed, and he was wearing high viz.
Is a pilots white shirt any harder to see than a yellow high Viz against a black apron?
Given the number of pedestrians killed each year on our footpaths, should all
pedestrians not be required to wear High Viz?
Will OH&S issues eventually destroy the Australian economy?
You're forgetting about the safety and personal protection equipment economy.
Accidents don't have to be fatal to be life-changing. Golfer Jack Newton lost his right arm and right eye when he walked into a spinning prop at Mascot in 1983. Not sure a fluoro vest would have prevented that accident - widespread rumour at the time was that he was pretty well lit up from a long drinking session. I believe apron safety procedures were blamed. Duh!

[Aussie Bob]

As for hi viz. you can’t go to any workplace these days to areas which are not generally accessible to the public without one. Argue all you like about whether or not they are necessary but it will not be you in the witness box explaining to counsel at an inquest as to the reasons why you did not find it necessary to impose a simple mitigation measure

Oh dear, is that what we have arrived at or is that taken from some scare rave at an OH&S meeting or ARO training day? We are talking about walking around on an airport here, not hanging out under a crane on a building site.

Aussies seem to have lost the plot. I often visit the USA where this litigation stuff supposedly originated. Safety vests seem optional most places in the USA, even at a big building site I recently visited in Kansas City, very few folk were wearing them. Cranes were operating, lots going on. No-one asked me to put one on. I guess the Yanks take personal responsibility a bit more seriously than Aussies do.

But back to the airports ..... and the guvmint that privatised them. Short memories abound in Australia too. Some of the bastards that promoted this privatisation and sell it to your mates ****e are still in office.

[thorn bird]

Airport privatisation was probably the biggest fraud ever perpetrated on the Australian people.

[harrryw]

When I grew up I had a 1/10000000 share of an airline, shipping lines, several banks many ports and airports not to mention a post office and all the roads in Australia together with all the railroads.
Can you really tell me that the ordinary person is richer today?

[BronteExperimental]

Argue all you like about whether or not they are necessary but it will not be you in the witness box explaining to counsel at an inquest as to the reasons why you did not find it necessary to impose a simple mitigation measure


Sure no problem. Just quote me one counsel at any domestic aviation inquest....

Risk management, mitigation, I has it thanks, don’t need your help.

[YPJT]

Had to wear them at Jandakot for quite a while now but only if crossing taxiways. Must be working as no one has been hit.
kudos to Dick, a nice bait to wind up the week on

[magnum pi]

Passed through The Alice last week on a ferry flight. Spent the night and went out to get going early the next morning for an early start to find the the aro’s dont start work till 6am now (first light was 5am i think).
If your an itinerant passing through, you will have to organise airside access the day before. This will be going in the ersa at some stage,
Had to fill out a form to land at the Rock too, even though i was only stopping for fuel. Becoming the norm for any rpt airport.
pi

[pbwhi0]

Ho hum, another week - another grenade lobbed by Dick.
isn't the hi viz requirement somewhere in CAOs? Although I think it only applies if walking across taxiways.

Dick is only trying to point out another degradation of GA and hold the Government accountable for the pitiful situation they have created for the industry due to their privatization agenda. Something they can fix but won't.

Instead of having a dig at someone trying to help the industry why don't you do some proper research in future and look up the CAOs instead of making a half baked statement without the evidence to back it up - just plain lazy.

[YPJT]

Well where is he to continue the discussion ?

[The name is Porter]

Must be working as no one has been hit.

Really Dood? Who was hit before the stupid landfill garbage was implemented?

(apart from Jack of course who was pissed as a newt) pardon the pun.

[YPJT]

The Hi-Viz issue was discussed six years ago.
https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/504558-hi-vis-vests-required-ypjt-21-january-2.html

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

another degradation of GA and hold the Government accountable for the pitiful situation they have created for the industry
And by simply making a phone call the situation goes away. If that is all it takes to kill GA then it must be pretty sick.
due to their privatization agenda
Councils have owned their aerodromes under the ALOP scheme since 1958. That's over 70 years. The government pulled out of that in the early 90's, leaving the councils to fend for themselves, so that's getting on to 30 years ago. The government hasn't owned or operated local aerodromes for most of the time they've been in existence.

[Horatio Leafblower]

The government hasn't owned or operated local aerodromes for most of the time they've been in existence.

....which was all fine and well while ever normal (old fashioned) Local Govt infrastructure practices continued.

Unfortunately, in the last 5 years we have seen the creation and expansion of the AAA and a propagation of the "Airport as a Business" and "maximise return to Ratepayers" model, which in turn started the trend of "Council as Property Developer" followed by "lets build a gold-plated airport and charge all the rich operators a fortune to use it".

The Euro-style Part 139 MOS has provided all the justification they could ever have wanted to expand their empires to the point where Scone airport has direct operating costs of about $78,000 pa but extended costs (once you take the management salaries etc into account) of around $300,000pa.

The geniuses at Upper Hunter Shire Council are now taking out loans of $10.8m to fund the airport mods before Part 139 comes into effect, adding $600,000 pa in loan repayments for the next 30 years.

All we need is basic infrastructure at a basic cost - but instead we are pricing our infrastructure through the roof so that only multinationals and government departments can afford to operate in Australia.

THIS is what is destroying GA, and all small family-owned businesses, in this country.

[Sunfish]

Agree 100% Leafblower. Local Councils and State and Federal Governments are adding layer upon layer of costs on the community with zero or negative returns on investment.

By way of example, our shire, one of the smallest, had a $300,000+ pa. CEO who then seriously argued the need for him to hire two deputy CEOs at $250,000 pa. so that he could concentrate on “strategy”. I say “had” because the community finally arced up enough to have him terminated. Over 50% of our council rates are eaten up by administrative staff salaries and on costs with little or no money left for capital works and that figure is getting worse.

We are also drowning in complex “planning policies” one of which - environment, will require months of paperwork and fees to cut down a single tree - alive or dead. The net result of that policy, like so many others is counterproductive, as farmers are going to poison and pull down as much native vegetation as possible before this latest impost is completed.

Another example concerns aboriginal artefacts; the hoo ha and costs associated with their preservation means that any sane farmer who discovers some will immediately destroy or conceal them. For example the discovery of a “canoe tree” on a property requires the design and creation of a special reserve around it which includes restrictions on what the land can then be used for - all at your expense of course. This happened to a friend three months ago.

As far as GA is concerned, we are blessed with a wonderful privately owned airstrip, but that is under constant threat from NIMBYs and as for council approval to build a much needed new hangar, forget it - even if we could afford the planning fees (heritage, water, aboriginal and environmental plans) not to mention the effing opposition from greenies.

[roundsounds]

What will happen when they finally kill off the Goose?

Councils aren’t trying to kill the Goose, they’re trying to get rid of the pesky aeroplanes so they can collect the golden egg by developing the land.
mom quite sure this is the end goal.

[KRviator]

Councils aren’t trying to kill the Goose, they’re trying to get rid of the pesky aeroplanes so they can collect the golden egg by developing the land. mom quite sure this is the end goal.Even a small airport like Warnervale would yield 400+ 3/4 acre blocks. In that case, it's $160,000,000 just in land sales, then there's the $1,000,000 a year in rates the council would bring in from those 400 homeowners. Plus another $24,000,000 or so to the local economy from another 400 families.

GA's got no hope of competing with numbers like that - even the most die-hard supporter of aviation has to be realistic, it is dying in this country with little to no hope of recovery.

Anyone want to buy an RV-9? :oh: