Severe trim runaway E175 Republic Airways 11/6/19 Atlanta

[spornrad]

Incident: Republic E175 at Atlanta on Nov 6th 2019, trim runaway, severe control problems, stalling situation (http://avherald.com/h?article=4cef2f7b)
A Republic Airways Embraer ERJ-175, registration N117HQ performing AA-4439 from Atlanta,GA to New York La Guardia,NY (USA) with 6 people on board, was climbing out of Atlanta's runway 09L when the crew declared emergency reporting they had a trim runaway, the crew stopped the climb at about 14,000 feet and positioned for a return to Atlanta's runway 10. The crew subsequently reported, while cleared for a right downwind to runway 10, they were in a stalling situation and subsequently added they couldn't get their pitch down, they were trying to descend nonetheless. ATC offered runway 08L, 10 or 09R, ATC could clear anyone out of the way. The crew advised they were able to take a turn and received vectors to runway 10. Instead of descending the aircraft began to climb again, then descended, the crew advised they got a system warning to cut out, got the problem under control and were now okay, they had been fighting with the aircraft for a while. The aircraft joined the final for runway 10, ATC again offered runway 10 or 09R, "your call", and cleared the aircraft to land either runway. The aircraft landed safely on runway 10 about 19 minutes after departure and about 15 minutes after the emergency call.
The aircraft is still on the ground about 18 hours after landing in Atlanta.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/RPA4439/history/20191107/0204Z/KATL/KLGA
Great job by the crew. Sounds hairy.

[Dave Gittins]

Please don't flame a PPL with a question but if this happened in the Diamondstar I'd just pull the breaker and turn the trim wheel by hand. Can't that be done in an ERJ ?

[Chesty Morgan]

Please don't flame a PPL with a question but if this happened in the Diamondstar I'd just pull the breaker and turn the trim wheel by hand. Can't that be done in an ERJ ?
No trim wheel on the EMB170-195. The QRH does lead to pulling the CB.

[lomapaseo]

No trim wheel on the EMB170-195. The QRH does lead to pulling the CB.

So how do they make up for this ? engine power?

[B2N2]

Please don't flame a PPL with a question but if this happened in the Diamondstar I'd just pull the breaker and turn the trim wheel by hand. Can't that be done in an ERJ ?

Backup trim systems may not work at the same speed as the main trim system.
So the main trim system may have a nose up runaway and as you’re fighting the airplane the backup trim takes twice as long.
Now this may or may not be the case with an Embraer as I know nothing about the plane systems.

[NWstu]

ATC audio starts at around 6:30

https://archive-server.liveatc.net/katl/KATL-Twr-9R-27L-Nov-07-2019-0200Z.mp3

[proxus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzoEsM0L2CM

[atakacs]

Well it will most likely be an interesting report to read.

[Ascend Charlie]

It will be uncomfortable, but get it on its side and use rudder. Practiced this in training jets back in 1972. Same with the nose-down trim on the MAX, get it on its side. Uncomfortable, and the pax may see their breakfast again, but beats the alternative.

[barrow]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/794x1037/qrh_erj_170_8af7fe07bf232b947109bd995eded91c0bab47e4.jpg

[flocci_non_faccio]

"...we're declaring an emergency."

Why not "Mayday mayday mayday"?

[RHS]

It will be uncomfortable, but get it on its side and use rudder. Practiced this in training jets back in 1972. Same with the nose-down trim on the MAX, get it on its side. Uncomfortable, and the pax may see their breakfast again, but beats the alternative.

Would take a fairly skilled pilot to fly an airliner around using top rudder. Don’t think I’d agree with the idea for a trim runaway!

Think this was muted to AA pilots in the 90’s though dealing with upset recovery.

[Takwis]

Utter, utter madness!

Not QUITE as mad as doing it with excessive nose DOWN trim.

Same with the nose-down trim on the MAX, get it on its side.

Might work if you rolled inverted, though. ;-)
Keep an eye on those oil pressure lights.

[pilotmike]

Think this was muted to AA pilots in the 90’s...
Whispered to them, or maybe using sign language, perchance? Maybe they'd lost their hearing if they were in their 90s.

[Herod]

It will be uncomfortable, but get it on its side and use rudder. Practiced this in training jets back in 1972. Same with the nose-down trim on the MAX, get it on its side.

Can you please explain what you mean here? In a Pitts, yes, but in an airliner? Maybe I'm just a retired airline pilot who doesn't understand these things.

[Airbubba]

Would take a fairly skilled pilot to fly an airliner around using top rudder. Don’t think I’d agree with the idea for a trim runaway!
Think this was muted to AA pilots in the 90’s though dealing with upset recovery.

Captain Warren Vanderburgh at American (most famous for his 'Children of the Magenta Line' lecture) indeed promoted the Advanced Aircraft Maneuvering Program in the 1990's. It advocated the aggressive use of rudder in upset recovery. I questioned the wisdom of this technique in a widebody airliner but we got the required sim training and checked the box.

In 2001 an A306 AA587 was departing JFK and got some wake turbulence from a 747 ahead. The FO did some rapid rudder kicks and the vertical stab sheared off the plane.

From the NTSB accident report:

7. The first officer had a tendency to overreact to wake turbulence by taking unnecessary actions, including making excessive control inputs.

8. The American Airlines Advanced Aircraft Maneuvering Program ground school training encouraged pilots to use rudder to assist with roll control during recovery from upsets, including wake turbulence.

9. The American Airlines Advanced Aircraft Maneuvering Program excessive bank angle simulator exercise could have caused the first officer to have an unrealistic and exaggerated view of the effects of wake turbulence; erroneously associate wake turbulence encounters with the need for aggressive roll upset recovery techniques; and develop control strategies that would produce a much different, and potentially surprising and confusing, response if performed during flight.

3.2 Probable Cause The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was the in-flight separation of the vertical stabilizer as a result of the loads beyond ultimate design that were created by the first officer’s unnecessary and excessive rudder pedal inputs. Contributing to these rudder pedal inputs were characteristics of the Airbus A300-600 rudder system design and elements of the American Airlines Advanced Aircraft Maneuvering Program.

[B2N2]

Can you please explain what you mean here? In a Pitts, yes, but in an airliner? Maybe I'm just a retired airline pilot who doesn't understand these things.

Remember the National 747 out of Baghram?


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/480x360/image_77fe07e386d241f361d16e0302d40ad3b7731f3d.jpeg

[Sailvi767]

It will be uncomfortable, but get it on its side and use rudder. Practiced this in training jets back in 1972. Same with the nose-down trim on the MAX, get it on its side. Uncomfortable, and the pax may see their breakfast again, but beats the alternative.
With runaway nose down trim you would toll the aircraft on its side? You kid right?

[pattern_is_full]

A full 90° bank in a transport aircraft? Not on my life. Not without a full understanding of a given aircraft's inertia, control response, rudder effectiveness, W&B etc.

But - see the note in the procedure posted by barrow

NOTE: Continuous banking turns will help alleviate excessive pitch up tendencies.

Some bank will A) spill some excessive pitch-up into turning moment, and B) turn the VS and rudder into an angled "half-ruddervator" as in a fork-tailed Bonanza, allowing some minor pitch adjustment via the rudder pedals (at the cost of a slip or skip).

It will require fine judgement if one is already in a near-stall attitude, since the banked turn will increase effective weight (G forces). Conversely, being able to input partial "bottom-rudder" with the pedals may help reduce AoA.

And it's still only a stopgap until the rest of the procedure can be completed successfully and normal control regained in all axes. One would have only a bit more long-term course control than the DC-10 at Sioux City - flying in circles or steepish S-turns all the way to the runway.

[Tobin]

This checklist assumes that at least one of the pitch trim systems will function normally. The steps are to figure out which one is the good one.

In the ATC recording the pilot says that they have cut out system 1 and 2, so what are they using?

[West Coast]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_Flight_1080


I also have heard of a AA aircraft that was turned on its side (the degree of which I don’t know) during a pitch runaway.

if my nose is pitched up at some angle that I know I can’t sustain, nor can I correct, banking the aircraft is next.

[b1lanc]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_Flight_1080


I also have heard of a AA aircraft that was turned on its side (the degree of which I don’t know) during a pitch runaway.

if my nose is pitched up at some angle that I know I can’t sustain, nor can I correct, banking the aircraft is next.

Interesting read by Capt Jack McMahan on that flight, slightly different then the VanderBurgh telling and very interesting. Either way, amazing that they got the aircaft down.

Another good read on a prior pprune thread below the 1080 link.

https://www.tristar500.net/library/flight1080.pdf
https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/576004-falcon-runaway-trim.html

[hans brinker]

Interesting read by Capt Jack McMahan on that flight, slightly different then the VanderBurgh telling and very interesting. Either way, amazing that they got the aircaft down.

Another good read on a prior pprune thread below the 1080 link.

https://www.tristar500.net/library/flight1080.pdf
https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/576004-falcon-runaway-trim.html
I have seen the Vanderburgh version quite a while ago, just read the Capt Jack version, and it is very, very, very different, to the extent it really devalued Vanderburgh for me.

[b1lanc]

I also have heard of a AA aircraft that was turned on its side (the degree of which I don’t know) during a pitch runaway.

if my nose is pitched up at some angle that I know I can’t sustain, nor can I correct, banking the aircraft is next.

On APF, there is some discussion of at least one yoke trim switch deferred prior to flight.

American Eagle 230 maybe (the ntsb link is strange but it eventually gets you to the full narrative)? The departure controller screen capture with ATC audio at rapp is unreal.

https://www.ntsb.gov/about/employment/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20010105X00017&akey=1
Eagle Flight 230 ? The House of Rapp (http://www.rapp.org/archives/2006/03/eagle_230/)

[Laker]

"...we're declaring an emergency."

Why not "Mayday mayday mayday"?

It’s a USA thing. For some reason pilots in the states are initially taught to “declare an emergency” with ATC instead of using the mayday mayday or Pan Pan phraseology. Most have to be taught the correct ICAO way once they start flying internationally.

[aa777888]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/794x1037/qrh_erj_170_8af7fe07bf232b947109bd995eded91c0bab47e4.jpg
This incident is really interesting. That crew apparently fought their trim system for what seemed like a long time. Leaving aside the obviously sub-optimal design of the 737-MAX, nevertheless with a runaway trim (or MCAS), in the MAX it came down to "Turn off two switches to live". And in this case, the above procedure doesn't seem overly complex, either. How is it that pilots are not performing these procedures within just a minute of when trim or trim-related systems are malfunctioning? And these folks immediately declared it a runaway trim, also.

Obviously I'm making a big assumption about what the failure mode was in this case. I suppose it could be something that was not readily handled by the above procedure.

[Roger_Murdock]

This incident is really interesting. That crew apparently fought their trim system for what seemed like a long time. Leaving aside the obviously sub-optimal design of the 737-MAX, nevertheless with a runaway trim (or MCAS), in the MAX it came down to "Turn off two switches to live". And in this case, the above procedure doesn't seem overly complex, either. How is it that pilots are not performing these procedures within just a minute of when trim or trim-related systems are malfunctioning? And these folks immediately declared it a runaway trim, also.

Obviously I'm making a big assumption about what the failure mode was in this case. I suppose it could be something that was not readily handled by the above procedure.

I think it's a little to early to tell about the time frame, actions taken, etc. of this flight. Just because they said the words "runaway trim" on the radio doesn't mean that it was an accurate description of the problem. Even if it was, they may have been able to engage cut out in short order yet suffered much difficulty manually trimming back to a state where they had pitch control.

[hans brinker]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/794x1037/qrh_erj_170_8af7fe07bf232b947109bd995eded91c0bab47e4.jpg

Well according to this checklist, EVERY trim runaway will be solved by re-setting one or both systems, and AFAIK there is no manual trim wheel in the E175 (can someone confirm?). While not MCAS level bad, I would have thought there would be a back-up plan for those situations where the trim is not working after a reset of both systems, with at least suggested speed/flap setting to get the aircraft back on the ground.
(IMHO If there is such a list, it should have been mentioned at the end of the procedure: "If reset unsuccessful refer to TRIM JAMMED PROCEDURE, or something like that....)

[barrow]

A Couple reference items for you chaps to mull.

[MarkerInbound]

It’s a USA thing. For some reason pilots in the states are initially taught to “declare an emergency” with ATC instead of using the mayday mayday or Pan Pan phraseology. Most have to be taught the correct ICAO way once they start flying internationally.

The FAA removed “declaring an emergency” from the AIM a few years ago but old habits are hard to break. The idea of communications is to get a thought or message to another person. “Mayday Mayday Mayday” means you are declaring an emergency. Saying “we are declaring an emergency” to a FAA air traffic controller who is required to be fluent in English would also get the thought across that they are declaring an emergency.

[FullWings]

The FAA removed “declaring an emergency” from the AIM a few years ago but old habits are hard to break. The idea of communications is to get a thought or message to another person. “Mayday Mayday Mayday” means you are declaring an emergency. Saying “we are declaring an emergency” to a FAA air traffic controller who is required to be fluent in English would also get the thought across that they are declaring an emergency.
During a developing situation departing a major US airport, it became obvious that ATC didn’t know what a PAN was so we ended up “declaring an emergency”, which got us assistance straight away. Despite having been brought up on the formality of ICAO standard RT, when you are both native English speakers it can make sense to partly revert to a normal conversation to get details and needs across quickly. It probably won’t work as well in China...

[Airbubba]

Here's what is in the 2019 edition of what used to be called the Airman's Information Manual:

Distress and Urgency Communications
A pilot who encounters a distress or urgency condition can obtain assistance simply by contacting the air traffic facility or other agency in whose area of responsibility the aircraft is operating, stating the nature of the difficulty, pilot's intentions and assistance desired. Distress and urgency communications procedures are prescribed by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), however, and have decided advantages over the informal procedure described above.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap6_section_3.html (https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap6_section_3.html)

[Icarus2001]

For goodness sake...what is the point here? A transport jet with a trim runaway or which are the correct words to "declare an emergency". With all and sundry giving their "opinion".

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/572x820/549e11653a9752c6d4cd5d8a6ad260514df66ec240324ac91f1a0b3372e3 6722_1_a1ecdba4c262e3b3e5f61bbf9f3f9db39863eb63.jpg

[Dave Gittins]

Continuing my earlier questions …. if an electrical fault causes either a trim runaway (which can be stopped by pulling a couple of breakers) or no trim at all (breakers pop on their own) isn't the lack of a trim wheel something of an oversight ? Or do airworthiness considerations simply require two totally independent electrical trim systems fed from separate buses to satisfy the statistical unlikelihood of a double failure.

Appreciate if its FBW there may not be any (non electric) cables to attach to the pulley under the big wheel, so how do the trim wheels work on an A320 ?

[robskye]

Continuing my earlier questions …. if an electrical fault causes either a trim runaway (which can be stopped by pulling a couple of breakers) or no trim at all (breakers pop on their own) isn't the lack of a trim wheel something of an oversight ? Or do airworthiness considerations simply require two totally independent electrical trim systems fed from separate buses to satisfy the statistical unlikelihood of a double failure.

Appreciate if its FBW there may not be any (non electric) cables to attach to the pulley under the big wheel, so how do the trim wheels work on an A320 ?

actually, in a320 the trim wheel is the mechanical backup for pitch control.

[fdr]

A full 90° bank in a transport aircraft? Not on my life. Not without a full understanding of a given aircraft's inertia, control response, rudder effectiveness, W&B etc.

But - see the note in the procedure posted by barrow



Some bank will A) spill some excessive pitch-up into turning moment, and B) turn the VS and rudder into an angled "half-ruddervator" as in a fork-tailed Bonanza, allowing some minor pitch adjustment via the rudder pedals (at the cost of a slip or skip).

It will require fine judgement if one is already in a near-stall attitude, since the banked turn will increase effective weight (G forces). Conversely, being able to input partial "bottom-rudder" with the pedals may help reduce AoA.

And it's still only a stopgap until the rest of the procedure can be completed successfully and normal control regained in all axes. One would have only a bit more long-term course control than the DC-10 at Sioux City - flying in circles or steepish S-turns all the way to the runway.

The aircraft itself doesn't care if it has a high bank angle or not, as you are aware. At low speed, there can be an over banking tendency on some aircraft, think B-52/ Fairchild AFB in 1994, but otherwise the aircraft will maintain it's composure. The advanced handling training resulted in unintended consequences, where inadequate knowledge of the structural protection through certification standards met aggressive control inputs, resulting in torsion bending loads well in excess of the structures ultimate strength. Rudders are extremely effective at high AOA, and do not need large deflections if used for roll. The rudder always places a torsion load on the rear structure as it is asymmetrical to the fuselage.

[misd-agin]

airbubba - "It advocated the aggressive use of rudder in upset recovery. " The videos are available on the 'net. In them Vandenburgh doesn't advocate aggressive use of the rudder.

Children of the Magenta Line - https://vimeo.com/159496346

Rudder discussion - 15:30 (ends at 16:10) (https://vimeo.com/159496346). More discussion at 29:00 about using rudder at 90 degrees while the nose is below the horizon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=35Zy_rl8WuM&feature=emb_logo

[Airbubba]

airbubba - "It advocated the aggressive use of rudder in upset recovery. " The videos are available on the 'net. In them Vandenburgh doesn't advocate aggressive use of the rudder.

Well, the AAMP and the sim scenario was certainly presented in some places as promoting up to full rudder deflection in some cases of unusual attitude recovery. The NTSB correctly observed that might work in the sim but it might not be a good idea in the plane.

From the AA587 NTSB Accident Report (emphasis mine):


https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1079x810/aamp3_4121ab71d770616afc9498936054fe1680453ce9.jpg

The canned AAMP sim scenario had the ailerons and rudder inhibited for the first 10 seconds or 50 degrees of roll so you were encouraged put in more yoke and rudder until you came out of the upset. I think the idea was that the fatal 737 upsets at COS and PIT might have been recoverable with more timely and aggressive control inputs.

Remember how cleanly the tail came off of AA587? After terrorism was ruled out I remembered how skeptical some of us were about the AAMP training. The NTSB thinks it may have been a factor in the FO's use of the rudder in this mishap.


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x720/maxresdefault_3959caba4033bc85cb20f13a4a9668cc95a297e6.jpg

[misd-agin]

The tail failed at 2.03 (2.07?) ultimate load. The certification requirement is 2.0. It was strong enough. https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR0404.pdf is the NTSB AA 587 report. Pages 72-93, 121-149, 153-156 and 159-160 cover the AAMP training and recommendations. Segments from the training material is included with several references to rudder input along with "smoothly." Memory is a funny thing - page 72 says the Safety Board reviewed rudder inputs in the VMS in August 2002. I recall being told about watching those simulations by an observer. I thought it had occurred back in December 2001/January 2002. Either there were two VMS exercises or I spoke with the individual after the August 2002 tests.

[rattman]

In the ATC recording the pilot says that they have cut out system 1 and 2, so what are they using?

Didn't they say the put it in direct law

[Airbubba]

An update from the NTSB:

NTSB News Release
National Transportation Safety Board Office of Public Affairs10 Safety Recommendations Issued Following Incident Investigation Preliminary Findings1/29/2020

Based on preliminary findings from its ongoing investigation of an incident involving an Embraer-175 airplane, the NTSB issued 10 safety recommendations Wednesday to address safety issues identified in the investigation.

The NTSB issued six safety recommendations to the National Civil Aviation Agency of Brazil (ANAC) and four to the Federal Aviation Administration. The recommendations are designed to address areas of concern including wire chafing, application of Embraer service bulletins relating to the pitch trim switch, and potential limitations in checklist memory items for pilots to address unintended operation of the pitch trim system.

The investigation and recommendations stem from a Nov. 6, 2019, incident involving Republic Airways flight 4439, an Embraer EMB-175. The flight crew declared an emergency shortly after takeoff from Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport, Atlanta, reporting a pitch trim-related flight control issue and difficulty controlling the airplane. There were six passengers on board the airplane. The crew returned to the airport and safely landed the plane about 15 minutes after declaring the emergency.

Although the cause of the incident remains under investigation, post-incident examination of the airplane revealed chafed insulation around wires connecting the horizontal stabilizer actuator control electronics to the captain’s pitch trim switch and autopilot/trim disconnect button. The chafing was caused by contact with the incorrectly untucked pigtail of the forward mechanical stop bolt safety wire.



http://us.vocuspr.com/Publish/3567839/vcsPRAsset_3567839_137078_489cd08c-84b5-43b1-b5aa-9f373362cf64_0.png (https://www.flickr.com/gp/ntsb/7B4039)



(Wire chafing to the insulation around wires connecting the horizontal stabilizer actuator control electronics to the captain’s pitch trim switch in an Embraer-175 (left) and an incorrectly untucked pigtail (right) that caused the chafing, are seen in these photos taken Nov. 9, 2019. Photo courtesy of Republic Airways.)

When the captain’s pitch trim switch was removed from the yoke, marks were observed that indicated at some point before the incident flight, the pitch trim switch had been installed in an inverted position. Embraer previously issued three service bulletins related to pitch trim switch installation error following reports from flight crews in 2015 about flight control system difficulties. However, neither the FAA nor the ANAC required incorporation of the service bulletins. While it is not yet known if inverted switch installation was a factor in the incident, the NTSB is concerned the condition could lead to flight crew confusion, delaying appropriate recognition of and response to increased control forces.

Preliminary information from the NTSB’s investigation also suggests that unintended pitch trim operation may be masked and go undetected during certain phases of flight, such as during takeoff. Further, limitations in the checklist memory items may delay pilots in properly responding to and regaining control of the Embraer EMB-170/175/190/195 and Lineage 1000 series airplanes. The NTSB is concerned the crew’s application of the memory item(s) on the EMB-175 Pitch Trim Runaway checklist may not comprehensively address circumstances of the trim system operation in a timely manner.

Based on these preliminary findings from the ongoing investigation, the NTSB issued the 10 safety recommendations to address these safety issues.

“Issuing these 10 safety recommendations early in the investigation demonstrates the NTSB’s commitment to take action as soon as we’ve identified and verified a safety issue that needs to be addressed,” said NTSB Chairman Robert Sumwalt. “We don’t need to wait for an investigation to be completed before issuing safety recommendations. We have the responsibility to issue recommendations that when implemented by recipients, can correct safety deficiencies, prevent accidents, and save lives,” said Sumwalt.

Aviation Safety Recommendation Report 20-01 (https://ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/asr2001.aspx)is available online.

The NTSB’s investigation of the Nov. 6, 2019, incident is ongoing and as such, no conclusions about probable cause should be drawn from the information provided in the safety recommendation report.

[DaveReidUK]

Reading between the lines of the ASR, this sounds like a maintenance, rather than a manufacturing issue.

I can remember learning the hard way, many years ago, that leaving a projecting locking wire tail is not only a Cardinal Sin, but can hurt like h*ll.

[Double Back]

Dave Reid, so true.
It was during a DC9 training session with a few F/O's doing touch and goes, we had a massive bird strike (a duck) on the RH windscreen on short final. Just red all over, blocking the instructor's view nearly completely. Stopped and turned off the active, and the instructor, armed with a load of toilet paper, opened the RH window to lean outside and started to clean up the mess.
Did not take long before he made a scream and came back inside, bleeding like h&ll from his RH wrist.
He had hit the safety wire of the wiper's axle.
Called it quits, we saw enough blood for that day :) ...

[retired guy]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/794x1037/qrh_erj_170_8af7fe07bf232b947109bd995eded91c0bab47e4.jpg

Thanks barrow
Looks very interesting even though I know less that the square root of zero about Embraer.
They clearly can have a stab that can runaway that can exceed pilot elevator capability which sounds familiar - hence the ref to banking turns to reduce lift. Banking heavily left and right to fly the plane is clearly a last ditch idea. A bit like yoyo on the 737, but it works.
The OFF buttons seem to be the equivalent of the 737 STAB OFF switches
They don't have manual trim wheels or any other fallback.
QRH
In a runway the drill seems to be that one of the two channels is malfunctioning, so....
BOTH OFF
Re-instate one at a time to find the one that works and that's all right then. Continue with good channel.
It doesn't say what to do if this doesn't work. Probably because they think the chances of both channels going at once is considered to unlikely.
Are there any Embraer pilots who can explain this one because it was clearly very difficult to control.
Cheers
R Guy

ps just seen post NO 28 which asks the same question. What next?.......

[retired guy]

actually, in a320 the trim wheel is the mechanical backup for pitch control.

robskye
Are we sure it is mechanical as per the 737, or is it a wheel on the flight deck that sends electrical power to a motor which runs the STAB up and down?
I would be surprised if Airbus had anything "mechanical"!
Cheers
R Guy

[retired guy]

With runaway nose down trim you would toll the aircraft on its side? You kid right?

Think we have been watching too much Denzil Washington in FLIGHT movie. Works if a Pitts Special thought.
R Guy

[BDAttitude]

Where is it supposed to tie against​​​​ anyway?
Maybe the safety wire can be seen going to the top left in an acute angle? Doesn't make sense to me. Loop would be on the wrong side as well?

[DaveReidUK]

Where is it supposed to tie against​​​​ anyway?
Maybe the safety wire can be seen going to the top left in an acute angle? Doesn't make sense to me. Loop would be on the wrong side as well?

Looks OK to me. The wire-locking is oriented so as to prevent the bolt from unscrewing. The other end of the wire presumably loops through something that doesn't move.

[cappt]

Where is it supposed to tie against​​​​ anyway?
Maybe the safety wire can be seen going to the top left in an acute angle? Doesn't make sense to me. Loop would be on the wrong side as well?

It’s the stop bolt that’s is adjustable by loosening the jam nut (out of the picture) at the base. The wire looks correct to me? (righty tighty) In my opinion the pigtail is not all to blame here. The wire bundle has no business being unsecured and rubbing against a component like that. Another thing, when did we stop wrapping wire bundles with anti-chafe tape?
I understand all ERJ aircraft at my airline got inspected immediately and none were found with this situation.

The ERJ has complete fly-by-wire elevators, ailerons are are mechanical however so you have that going for you.

[fdr]

It will be uncomfortable, but get it on its side and use rudder. Practiced this in training jets back in 1972. Same with the nose-down trim on the MAX, get it on its side. Uncomfortable, and the pax may see their breakfast again, but beats the alternative.



?????? ????

Dude, you need to read what you have written, and then correct the statement? "...same as with the NOSE DOWN TRIM on the MAX..." Please, please, please take time to correct what you have put there so it is not misleading.

HINT:
1. an undesired nose up moment can benefit from using bank to avoid excessively high attitude and corresponding low energy state.
2. an undesirable NOSE DOWN TRIM case is compromised further by bank; loading required to raise attitude is higher than wings level case.


Now if you are suggesting inverted flying in yon B73Max, that has a limited shelf life, it is going to get quiet in about 30 seconds as the boost pumps are then above the fuel level.... as is the engine oil pickup, as is the hydraulic feed to the hyd pumps from the reservoir... possibly a good scenario for a B grade movie, hey, like AK261, but add winglets, add coke, as everything goes better with coke, and, yup lets take out the steeple of a baptist church and park the tube in the field in front of the parishioners. If Neil Williams can do it in a Zlin, then, heck let's do that in the Max.

Dunno though, I have enough fun landing a Pitts on its main gear, but at least it isn't the most entertaining single seat bipe to alight on terra firma. A glide approach from the 180 is so much fun in a Pitts, even right side up. Add a 180 roll at 20' and the fun quotient may exceed my bowel watertightness.

just sayin'

[Bidule]

robskye
Are we sure it is mechanical as per the 737, or is it a wheel on the flight deck that sends electrical power to a motor which runs the STAB up and down?
I would be surprised if Airbus had anything "mechanical"!
Cheers
R Guy

As per the A319 specification:
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/918x136/2020_01_31_092653_cfe194045d5e57c478976b501b32ac486d1f5de1.p ng
and
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1155x261/2020_01_31_092550_549144ace68f49d1de0f9a8b938b1c6446689df7.p ng


Hope it is useful.
.

[retired guy]

As per the A319 specification:
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/918x136/2020_01_31_092653_cfe194045d5e57c478976b501b32ac486d1f5de1.p ng
and
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1155x261/2020_01_31_092550_549144ace68f49d1de0f9a8b938b1c6446689df7.p ng


Hope it is useful.
.

Ah. So it is wheels (like 737) connected to a cable going back the rear of the plane? So far so good.
And then connected to hydraulic components. I wonder does it bypass all the electrical functions?
So it isn't mechanical like the 737 which is clockwork. But it does permit pitch control via hydraulics in the event of falling back to the Airbus equivalent of manual control.
I know you Airbus guys will be able to write dissertions on this stuff but for us Boeing guys currently keeping heads down, it is all very interesting.
These are all questions by the way to gain greater understanding.
Best wishes
R Guy

[retired guy]

?????? ????
Now if you are suggesting inverted flying in yon B73Max, that has a limited shelf life, it is going to get quiet in about 30 seconds as the boost pumps are then above the fuel level.... as is the engine oil pickup, as is the hydraulic feed to the hyd pumps from the reservoir... possibly a good scenario for a B grade movie, hey, like AK261, but add winglets, add coke, as everything goes better with coke, and, yup lets take out the steeple of a baptist church and park the tube in the field in front of the parishioners. If Neil Williams can do it in a Zlin, then, heck let's do that in the Max.


just sayin'
fdr
How's it going?
For info I was training a 737 guy on Lesson one FFS (first day on sim.). How to fly straight and level. Effect of power. That sort of boring but essential ab initial stuff.
After 3:45 of a four hour session, as was our custom, I asked if he wanted to try anything. He said 'can I have a play'. Of course - she's all yours.
Took off, turned it upside down, inverted climb out and circuit perfectly, base leg and finals inverted before rolling wings level for landing. Yes on the real thing it would have flamed out and the sim. didn't know that! But the handling was he said what he expected. He then showed me a loop and barrel roll. They have been my 737 party piece ever since.
Not on the real plane of course because the passengers get upset.
Cheers
R Guy

[krohmie]

Think we have been watching too much Denzil Washington in FLIGHT movie. Works if a Pitts Special thought.
R Guy
They did it and safed the falcon!

​​​​​​https://news.aviation-safety.net/2016/02/15/serious-incident-report-falcon-7x-loss-of-control-after-pitch-trim-runaway/

OK ex military pilots!

[Gipsy Queen]

Dunno though, I have enough fun landing a Pitts on its main gear, but at least it isn't the most entertaining single seat bipe to alight on terra firma. A glide approach from the 180 is so much fun in a Pitts, even right side up. Add a 180 roll at 20' and the fun quotient may exceed my bowel watertightness.

just sayin'

Is this what you meant to convey? I've enjoyed myself in the Z-226, Jungmann, CAP20 and the like but I've had more fun in the S2 than any other type.

[HOVIS]

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread but I saw a YouTube video of this incident and the errors from design, regulator, pilots and maintenance are quite staggering.
How can it be OK to allow it to be possible to fit the trim switches upside down? Where was the function test after refitting it? Secondary inspection after disturbing flt control systems?
Unbelievable!
Then the pilot flying uses a system that was declared inoperable minutes before?

[MrBernoulli]

How can it be OK to allow it to be possible to fit the trim switches upside down? Where was the function test after refitting it? Secondary inspection after disturbing flt control systems?
Unbelievable!
Then the pilot flying uses a system that was declared inoperable minutes before?
Have a read of the NTSB Final report. It has many of the answers you seek.

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/100540/pdf

[Capn Bloggs]

Unbelievable!
Then the pilot flying uses a system that was declared inoperable minutes before?
You try not using the trim when you've done it all your career. I think the captain took too much flak here.

[HOVIS]

Believe me I'm not pointing solely at the Captain here, its a mess from the beginning. I'm particularly disappointed that a function check and duplicate inspection wasn't performed by maintenance after disturbing the switch. Would it be unusual for a Captain to deligate the FO to fly the sector due to the fault on his trim switch?

[HOVIS]

Have a read of the NTSB Final report. It has many of the answers you seek.

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/100540/pdf

Thankyou. I didn't see any reason given why the SB had not been complied with. Any further info on this? Seems odd, they had three years to comply but didn't, after five years?