Airliner intercept for training?

[gearlever]

Is it legal to intercept an airliner just for practice?

Ryanair B738 over Austria on Oct 25th 2019, aircraft intercepted by fighter aircraft (http://avherald.com/h?article=4cea0c83&opt=0)

[BARKINGMAD]

In the days of DanAir criscrossing the North Sea it was not unusual to be asked by civilian ATC whether we would be happy to be intercepted for practice by the RAF which existed then.

Rarely refused, many captains were ex-military anyway and didn’t have the hangups harboured by the civilian-trained aircrew.

A quick PA telling the pax what they might see was the wise thing to do to avoid startling them.

It was reassuring to remind the interceptors to “Check switches safe” just in case.

But that was in the days before ‘elfin safety and diversity training ruined the Western World and I doubt the desk-flyers of modern management would tolerate such co-operation.

[gearlever]

Your profile says you're a commander - I guess you'd know what the rules are and whether any are going to be broken.

But I would point out that the AVH page does not suggest that the mil training will involve GAT.

As BARKINGMAD says, it's been done in the past. As a controller many years ago I sometimes got involved with asking an aircraft I was controlling if it would mind allowing the mill to try to find it on behalf of some mil training facility. Most said yes. But that was a long time before many passengers were so aware (or cared) about what happened through their windows. These days I suspect if the flightdeck made a PA to say that a mil aircraft or two would formate with them for training most passengers wouldn't believe them.

I'm not ashamed to say "I don't know the current rules, in Austria, the US, worldwide".
That's why I'm asking those who know better than I do.

[BARKINGMAD]

Post 9/11 I would hope the pax would be grateful even if they knew they were on the receiving end of the ‘pickle’ button?

[G-ARZG]

Sadly, these days, likely pax response would be 'can we claim compensation for the stress' while searching for 'no win, no fee' lawyer types

[Herod]

In the "good old days" most passengers were pleased to see a military aircraft close up. "Better than an air display". It also of course showcased the RAF. I guess, sadly, the old days are gone.

[Gnadenburg]

It was reassuring to remind the interceptors to “Check switches safe” just in case.



Because would could possibly go wrong ? Inadvertent weapons release by a QRA interceptor is not a possibility ?

[etudiant]

Because would could possibly go wrong ? Inadvertent weapons release by a QRA interceptor is not a possibility ?

Vaguely remember an Italian DC-9 getting shot down over the Adriatic, never fully resolved afaik.

[Gnadenburg]

You can google inadvertent shoot-downs or weapons release due human factors and switchology mistakes for interesting reading on the relatively commonplace nature of such events.

Kind of sobering. This year google reports a NATO QRA fighter fired an AMRAAM by mistake or even moving to the brave new world of AI and networked systems the Indians shot down one of their own helicopters this month.

Running intercepts on airliners with QRA aircraft and war rounds is inviting Murphy's Law. Using airliners for SAM training probably not so wise as well.

[Servo]

I was asked last year out of Brisabne, Australia if it was ok for a military aircraft out of Amberley to practice an few intercepts.

At night, so the passengers would not have known or saw them.

I was in B737.

Officer was happy, so we said sure.

[blind pew]

Was an attempt to shoot down Ghadaffi in his DC9 that went wrong. They correctly got one of his fighter escorts but wrong DC 9.
in spite of a 30 year cover up an Italian court awarded damages to the families against the Italian navy iirc.

[blind pew]

I flew DC9s at the time for the Swiss over that route. The airline was run by predominately military pilots with very close links to Nato fighter colleagues and our security department shortly afterwards condoned our continued flying over the region knowing what actually happened having assessed the risk.
International press had at one time stated that Ghadaffi had been involved as wreckage from a Libyan Mig was discovered in Italy.
I had a french mate who had flown off a yank carrier in the Med who knew the inside story, he sadly died flying his motorglider in the Alps a few years ago. It was only at his funeral that I discovered his relatively senior rank.
Re conspiracy theories watch bbc i player https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0008c47 you will note that the collusion of the secret services in the last two programs and the lack mentioning the bombing campaign against BEA. One aircraft diverted to Manchester with a bomb under a pax seat cushion. There was a file on it which I tried to get release on around 2014 but was frozen for 40 years. After the freezing period expired I recontacted the department that held it who eventually replied that it didnt exist. There was a reference to it in the national archive at Kew.

[Herod]

The article says the Austrians will be carrying out "intercept training". No mention of intercepting airliners.

[rotorwills]

Was on a repatriation flight few years ago. Swiss requested an intercept. Had a couple of fighters on my wings fir a few minutes. Was heartily thanked after the event. Got a few pics of the pilots close up. Had officers and "guests" in the back. Never heard any comments from them, so probably never saw the jets.

[mustafagander]

Back in the 1980s & 1990s it was common over Europe. Many times Maastrich control would ask if we minded their F4s playing around us. Good to watch IMHO.

[DaveReidUK]

The article says the Austrians will be carrying out "intercept training". No mention of intercepting airliners.

Except the Ryanair flight that was intercepted, as confirmed by the Austrians.

[Doctor Cruces]

Back in my day, one could put "RMK/EMBELLISH" in field 18 to say don't mind being intercepted. Is that still in use?

[Nightstop]

I was intercepted without warning by a Lightening flying out of Binbrook years ago in an F27. It scared the sh!t out of us when the F/O’s side window was suddenly filled with the gleaming silver monster. It turned out to be flown by the Station Commander on an early morning MET sortie. Not impressed, but wish I had a picture.

[Capt Fathom]

I was asked last year out of Brisabne, Australia if it was ok for a military aircraft out of Amberley to practice an few intercepts.

At night, so the passengers would not have known or saw them.

I was in B737.

Officer was happy, so we said sure.

No way in this world would I allow my passengers or my crew to be exposed to this! If they get it wrong, your dead. They get to eject!

They have their own training resources for this. No need to put the public at risk.

I vaguely recall a Qantas incident in Japan many years ago where a US Fighter Jet snuck up on them and set off theIr TCAS!

[DirtyProp]

Was an attempt to shoot down Ghadaffi in his DC9 that went wrong. They correctly got one of his fighter escorts but wrong DC 9.
in spite of a 30 year cover up an Italian court awarded damages to the families against the Italian navy iirc.

Who made such attempt?

[gearlever]

Video FR-9026 30 Oct 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-0npSuKgn8&t=38s

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Video FR-9026 30 Oct 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-0npSuKgn8&t=38s
I wonder how much MOL charged
A) The Air Force
B) Each passenger
For the privilege of participation in this exercise ??
Just curious
David

[Capn Bloggs]

"Now barrel-roll over the top to give the other side a look!" No Bloggs, Fathom would have kittens... :}

[FullWings]

I remember being intercepted through prior arrangement over the Irish Sea by a Tornado. It was a “jolly” for all the pax so there was a 3rd pilot on the JS doing PAs - he counted down and at zero they went full afterburner which was enjoyed by all as it was a night flight.

These days I think the H&S risk assessment would say “no” before you asked the question. If you’d really like to see some military aircraft up close, don’t reply to radio calls for 10mins over Europe...

[Midland 331]

Does anyone else recall the regular experimental routing of scheduled passenger services up the East Coast from London on 1991/2? It was a sort of "hang a left at Clacton VOR and keep going north-ish"-arrangement . The idea was to free capacity on the Daventry Sector.

The Aerad charts were almost solid blue east of Alpha 1 in those days, service provided by Eastern Radar, and intercepts fairly common, so I understand.

Somewhere there is a photo of a couple of Tornadoes formate-ing with a BA 757.

[Tech Guy]

At the time of the first Gulf war, I was working on the cross Channel ferries. During one particular return voyage from Boulogne, the Captain came on the tannoy and advised passengers the RAF would be making some low passes for "training purposes". We and most of the passengers spent a delightful quarter of an hour watching a pair of Tornados make a series of "straffing runs" at an altitude that just cleared the mast tops.

After 5 or so passes, they flew in a big circle around the ship before departing and climbing rapidly on afterburners to a huge cheer and applause from the passengers.

[Dominator2]

Why don't you ask this question on the Military Forum, I'm sure that you may receive some more informed answers?

I my day QRA (or its equivalent) was entitled to Police all of its Nations Sovereign Airspace. There were set regulations and qualification requirements ie Combat Ready AD.

Civilian pilots should be pleased rather than scared, worried or distressed when being intercepted by a qualified pilot/crew.

Of course if you choose to blunder through VRF airspace and come close to a 2V2 Air Combat sortie then "see and avoid"!

[FarWest]

"Now barrel-roll over the top to give the side a look!" No Bloggs, Fathom would have kittens... :}

We used to contract Concorde to fly large supersonic figures of 8 over the north sea and used Lightnings and F4s to fly practice intercepts against Concorde.

Allegedly a Lightning flown by D*** G****** overtook the Concorde and barrel-rolled around it. The Concorde crew were not impressed.

FW

[gearlever]

Why don't you ask this question on the Military Forum, I'm sure that you may receive some more informed answers?



Yep, thx.

Mods please feel free.

[spekesoftly]

I was intercepted without warning by a Lightening flying out of Binbrook years ago in an F27. It scared the sh!t out of us when the F/O’s side window was suddenly filled with the gleaming silver monster. It turned out to be flown by the Station Commander on an early morning MET sortie. Not impressed, but wish I had a picture.


It could have been worse:-

https://www.pprune.org/2404491-post3.html

[rog747]

Video FR-9026 30 Oct 2019
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-0npSuKgn8&t=38s

Looks like fun BUT the Video poster says -
''Our flight disappeared from radars while flying over Austria. ATC was unable to communicate with our plane. We were flying from Girona to Bratislava, 25.10.2019 on Ryanair Boeing 737-800
Austrian Air force sent 2 Eurofighter Typhoons to check out on our flight.
Cabin crew was silent. During this flight no information about this encounter was given to passengers.''

Oops - well it's viral now....

[DaveReidUK]

Looks like fun BUT the Video poster says -
''Our flight disappeared from radars while flying over Austria. ATC was unable to communicate with our plane. We were flying from Girona to Bratislava, 25.10.2019 on Ryanair Boeing 737-800
Austrian Air force sent 2 Eurofighter Typhoons to check out on our flight.
Cabin crew was silent. During this flight no information about this encounter was given to passengers.''

"Our flight" implies that the author/photographer was a passenger on the flight.

How does a passenger know that the aircraft they are on has disappeared from radar ?

[rog747]

"Our flight" implies that the author/photographer was a passenger on the flight.

How does a passenger know that the aircraft they are on has disappeared from radar ?

Good point as always Dave the sleuth - maybe the pax found out stuff from the Press before he uploaded his vid? dunno

Best.

[beardy]

We used to contract Concorde to fly large supersonic figures of 8 over the north sea and used Lightnings and F4s to fly practice intercepts against Concorde.

Allegedly a Lightning flown by D*** G****** overtook the Concorde and barrel-rolled around it. The Concorde crew were not impressed.

FW
That's a good story, considerably 'embellished' from the one I heard.

[Less Hair]

I'd say practice intercepts are much more common than known as sovereign countries have their own rights to practice. Who would notice a fighter behind or below him? Or a hot missile aiming for him...
Might feel uncomfortable but this is the reality. No drama.

[wiggy]

Sounds to me like one or two of these stories have been embellished :E

North Sea, Night Pairs PI .sortie .tick...
Playmate goes inop shortly after you’ve come off the tanker and toddles off home...tick...
Boss wants hours...tick, yawn...starts singing “Wing Commanders AFC ..”

So.... I would like to belatedly thank the crews of the Britannia 737 and a USAF Nightingale, otherwise it would have been a heck of a long night.....

[ShotOne]

Airliner interception training-what could possibly go wrong? Apart from quite a few collisions over the years. And a handful of accidental shoot-downs. I think it’s a no from me!

[Fortissimo]

Airliner interception training-what could possibly go wrong? Apart from quite a few collisions over the years. And a handful of accidental shoot-downs. I think it’s a no from me!

Don't confuse the 'handful' of accidental shoot downs with what happens on QRA. There is a very clear understanding that the aircraft are armed, which is why there will be a number of checks that all is 'switches safe'- the fighter is not going to get within 10 miles of an intercept without confirming that there is no prospect of an inadvertent weapon release - there are many checks and balances in the system. The pilots of these aircraft do not just make it up as they go.

What 'quite a few' collisions are we talking of here? Fighter vs airliner? Their pilots fly in close formation almost every day, and what collisions do occur tend to happen on the close formation environment. With the QRA scenario, they will not be allowed to close on their 'target' until they are in visual contact.

But don't worry about denying them the opportunity to practice - they will defend you anyway come the day. And for half your salary.

[etudiant]

We used to contract Concorde to fly large supersonic figures of 8 over the north sea and used Lightnings and F4s to fly practice intercepts against Concorde.

Allegedly a Lightning flown by D*** G****** overtook the Concorde and barrel-rolled around it. The Concorde crew were not impressed.

FW
That seems implausible unless the Concorde was subsonic.
The Lightning had Mach 2 capability, but not for long, hardly enough to climb to Concorde level 60,000 ft and then do barrel rolls.

[West Coast]

We used to contract Concorde to fly large supersonic figures of 8 over the north sea and used Lightnings and F4s to fly practice intercepts against Concorde.

Allegedly a Lightning flown by D*** G****** overtook the Concorde and barrel-rolled around it. The Concorde crew were not impressed.

FW

Have a hard time buying off on the barrel roll part.

[ATC Watcher]

Lots of fantasy in this thread . the title is also misleading . Interception training is done using other military aircraft or special flights. ( Germany for instance uses a small specialized company using Learjets) No need to intercept civil airliners in civil controlled airspace .
Intercepting Concorde a M2.0 at FL600 ? Good luck with that one .
Most interception of civil airliners (over 90% in Western Europe I would guess) are due to loss of comms, and most of these are just finger trouble, wrong digit tuned or forgot the google switch. Expensive mistakes specially since some States are reported to send the bill to the airlines .involved. But verifying /intercepting radio failures is a standard normal routine procedure in many places right now, Get used to it.

[gearlever]

Lots of fantasy in this thread . the title is also misleading . Interception training is done using other military aircraft or special flights. ( Germany for instance uses a small specialized company using Learjets) No need to intercept civil airliners in civil controlled airspace .
Intercepting Concorde a M2.0 at FL600 ? Good luck with that one .
Most interception of civil airliners (over 90% in Western Europe I would guess) are due to loss of comms, and most of these are just finger trouble, wrong digit tuned or forgot the google switch. Expensive mistakes specially since some States are reported to send the bill to the airlines .involved. But verifying /intercepting radio failures is a standard normal routine procedure in many places right now, Get used to it.

That's why I put the question mark in the title. But yes, a comm loss may have happened to FR-9026.

[DaveReidUK]

The link in the first post categorically rejects Slovak media reports that the aircraft suffered a loss of communication, but then goes on to say that it "does not rule out a loss of communication and possibly [sic] an intercept".

So that's cleared that up, then.

[Ian W]

We used to contract Concorde to fly large supersonic figures of 8 over the north sea and used Lightnings and F4s to fly practice intercepts against Concorde.

Allegedly a Lightning flown by D*** G****** overtook the Concorde and barrel-rolled around it. The Concorde crew were not impressed.

FW

I am wondering if that is the D*** G****** that I knew some considerable time back in RAFG

It was standard practice in the 70's for civil aircraft to be used for Practice Intercepts (as said in an earlier post the civil aircraft could put /EMBELLISH in the RMK/ field of the flight plan to 'volunteer') but usually the intercepts were radar intercepts and the civil aircraft crew and pax would be unaware of being used as a target as the intercept was broken off well before visual range - though sometimes less successfully with head on PIs :}. However, the entire attitude then was different to these operations and there was often exchanges of repartee between civil crew and Eastern Radar in particular. Crews both civil and military seemed to actually enjoy what they were doing back then.

ATC Watcher
Intercepting Concorde a M2.0 at FL600 ? Good luck with that one .
If it was a Lightning intercept it would have to be in the close to the UK coast due to their limited range. Concorde was not allowed to accelerate to supersonic until clear of land so a Lightning would have no problem 'keeping up'. From very early in the Lightning existence back in the 1960's it was used for PIs up to 65,000ft (https://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2546087/The_curious_tale_of_the_Lightn.html) with PIs against U2's

[ATC Watcher]

Ian W : f it was a Lightning intercept it would have to be in the close to the UK coast due to their limited range. Concorde was not allowed to accelerate to supersonic until clear of land so a Lightning would have no problem 'keeping up'. From very early in the Lightning existence back in the 1960's it was used for PIs up to 65,000ft (https://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/2546087/The_curious_tale_of_the_Lightn.html) with PIs against U2's
Many hanks for that link , very good reference , but as far as I know ( I have no F6-Lightning experience but seen dozens of intercepts of more modern types on the Radar ) there is a huge difference in intercepting an aircraft at FL600 doing M.07 on a fixed track ( as a U2 would do ) and one doing Mach2 0 . I would even dare to say impossible , I do not know the exact on site endurance of the Lightning in Hot configuration ( i.e armed with no extra tanks) with reheat to get to his max speed M2.2. up to 65.000ft , but my guess is in single minutes, probably less than 5., and with a speed difference of M.02 not a chance unless you have a bloody good controller on the ground and good luck that the target will not change course while you climb up there.
Intercept at 36.000ft , it is already very limited : from wikipedia :
An F.6 equipped with Red Top missiles can climb to 36,000 ft, accelerate to Mach 1.8, and intercept a target at 135 nm only 10.7 min after brake release. A 2g level turn allows a rear-quarter re-attack 1.6 min later. Following a best-range cruise and descent, the Lightning enters the landing pattern with 800 lb of fuel remaining with a total mission time of 35 min.

I would say if a Concorde was ever intercepted by a F6 it was subsonic and at less than 30.000 ft.. So basically a non-event.

[Ian W]

Ian W :
Many hanks for that link , very good reference , but as far as I know ( I have no F6-Lightning experience but seen dozens of intercepts of more modern types on the Radar ) there is a huge difference in intercepting an aircraft at FL600 doing M.07 on a fixed track ( as a U2 would do ) and one doing Mach2 0 . I would even dare to say impossible , I do not know the exact on site endurance of the Lightning in Hot configuration ( i.e armed with no extra tanks) with reheat to get to his max speed M2.2. up to 65.000ft , but my guess is in single minutes, probably less than 5., and with a speed difference of M.02 not a chance unless you have a bloody good controller on the ground and good luck that the target will not change course while you climb up there.
Intercept at 36.000ft , it is already very limited : from wikipedia :
.

I would say if a Concorde was ever intercepted by a F6 it was subsonic and at less than 30.000 ft.. So basically a non-event.

Well you are comparing an intercept at FL600 to a more likely intercept at FL350-400 over the SW approaches or the North Sea. Also though remember that Concorde was more constrained in its routing than the U2 so not so difficult to set up something. But yes it was not uncommon at Lightning units to have several Lightnings recovering with less than 10 minutes fuel. It kept everyone on their toes

Apologies for the thread drift

[pr00ne]

Quite apart from a lot of what is appearing here sounding more than a little fanciful, I would imagine that if anyone barrel rolled around any intercept target, let alone a civil airliner, let alone Concorde, it would be the last flight in a military aircraft they ever made...

[chevvron]

Back in my day, one could put "RMK/EMBELLISH" in field 18 to say don't mind being intercepted. Is that still in use?
I remember 'Embellish' procedures in the Lon Mil Radar operating procedures; as Farnborough was mentioned in them we had a full copy.

[chevvron]

Quite apart from a lot of what is appearing here sounding more than a little fanciful, I would imagine that if anyone barrel rolled around any intercept target, let alone a civil airliner, let alone Concorde, it would be the last flight in a military aircraft they ever made...
The late Brian Lecomber told me he did it once.
He was flying a Fokker Triplane replica in uncontrolled airspace south of Stansted and had the Stansted frequency tuned, so he heard an aircraft descending below controlled airspace near him.
He spotted it, pulled up and barrel rolled round it.
Then he heard 'Stansted, I've just been beaten up from below by a Fokker Triplane'!

[Saintsman]

I was flying Air France between Paris and Madrid some 15 years ago, when I just happened to look out of the window and a bright orange aircraft (Alphajet?) flew within 50 feet, left to right and over the top of us. A blink and you miss it event.

I did speak to the Captain, who was totally unaware.

[TEEEJ]

Who made such attempt?

The Libyan MiG-23 Flogger that crashed in Italy may simply have been an accident. See following with input from a colleague of the MiG-23 pilot.

The Final Flight of Ezzedin Khalil - A 1980 MiG crash wasn't as mysterious as some people believe

https://warisboring.com/the-final-flight-of-ezzedin-khalil/

[Timelord]

Concorde / Lightning pretty unlikely given their dates I think. First Concorde commercial service 1976, Lightning out of service 78 ? I think the intercept training involving Concorde was against F3

[blind pew]

Thanks for posting

[TheWestCoast]

Concorde / Lightning pretty unlikely given their dates I think. First Concorde commercial service 1976, Lightning out of service 78 ? I think the intercept training involving Concorde was against F3

Out of service in 1988, not 1978.

[F-16GUY]

Quite apart from a lot of what is appearing here sounding more than a little fanciful, I would imagine that if anyone barrel rolled around any intercept target, let alone a civil airliner, let alone Concorde, it would be the last flight in a military aircraft they ever made...

Actually a barrel roll is a great lag maneuver in case one overshoots the intercepted target. Misjudge the closure speed and you can still save the intercept by doing a barrel roll. If you do it early enough, you might even be able to maintain radar lock.

[Timelord]

I stand corrected, but I still think the Concorde contract was vs F3s

[TEEEJ]

Thanks for posting

No problem! :ok:

[ORAC]

First the rules - in the list of types of types of aircraft forbidden to be used for a target in practice intercepts was a clear line item - “passenger carrying aircraft”. I used to get calls from ex-military captains saying they had put embellished in their flight plans but having to refuse unless they were freight only.

However, it was a rule prolifically broken. Back in the 1970s Air Anglia in and out of Norwich we’re outraged if they weren't intercepted - it was one reason many flew with them. The QRA when scrambled to north of Saxa awaiting Bears which went elsewhere would intercept transatlantic traffic to pass the time - the ****, as they say, hitting the fan when one crew sent in their MISREP claiming an intercept on a Korean 747 just a few months after the Russian shooting down of Korean Flight 007. The British sense of humour not going down well at SHAPE.

We would also scramble and intercept the charity BA flights with orphans at Xmas at their request. “And if you look out the left hand windows kiddies you’ll see a live armed RAF F-4!”

There were also numerous intercepts during exercises when real targets were in short supply. The order “target xxx range xxx, intercept with caution” being the indication that it was civil flight and to intercept accordingly. The tacit rules being that 1000ft separation would be kept so that it could explained as merely being in the same area rather than an intercept. Though comments from pilots such as “Identified, SAS DC-9, and there’s a woman in a red dress four windows from the back waving at me”, did tend to indicated the rules weren’t being observed. (The Lightning didn’t have Mode-C)

Reference the Concorde. I controlled a few of these intercepts in the short window in which they took place. Concorde flew a figure of eight in the North Sea at a constant M2.0 with the height varying around FL560-580 to hold a constant speed. The intercepts were mainly done by the CY and LU F-4s from nominated CAP points for a frontal shot, with obviously no stern conversion! The BK Lightnings also had a CAP point. The approved profile was also frontal with no stern conversion - accelerate at the tropopause for a 150 intercept, pull for a lead Redtop solution on the port missile, roll through 180 to reveal and fire the starboard missile and pull through to descend.

There was an occasion when a Lightning had a radio failure on reaching the CAP and did not abort. The pilot committed at the planned the time and did 180 stern intercept and claimed a kill. This obviously involved penetrating the MRSA whilst not under radar control. What height he achieved in the stern (Mx having a substantial height window) and whether it would have managed to reach the target is moot.

For interest the standard Lightning high flying supersonic stern target profile was, IIRC, the U3A. Target at M1.8 at FL560* for a 180 x 26 intercept converting to a 90 x 8 with the fighter accelerating to M2.0 in the crossing leg for a 1nm roll out.

*The legal Lightning ceiling was FL560 for flying clothing/oxygen mask reasons. Though it was routinely broken, with aircraft, especially in the last few months, exceeding 60K by up to 20K.

The French also used to send their Mirage IVs up as targets during exercises. We would be tipped of by LATCC as they headed north up the North Sea on their tanker and scramble a Lightning F-6 to do a frontal intercept as they headed south at M2.0. On one occasion Wattisham messed up and scrambled an F-3 with Firestreak. He was given a 180 intercept and rolled out at 3nm, closing to 1nm for the kill before, from M2+ and 60K heading south just north of B1, diverting into Coltishall because he had insufficient fuel to make Wattisham. Memory grows dim but I believe the pilot was S**** M******.

[racedo]

Vaguely remember an Italian DC-9 getting shot down over the Adriatic, never fully resolved afaik.

Believe done on basis that Gadaffi was supposed to be on board. So the rumour goes.

[Pontius Navigator]

Good point as always Dave the sleuth - maybe the pax found out stuff from the Press before he uploaded his vid? dunno

Best.
no info from Cabin Crew on the flight, but maybe the camera man asked after the flight?

[newt]

I remember well a sortie against Concorde from Wattisham! in a Mk6 Lightning. Initially a head on supersonic to fire Red Top Missile acquired and for real would have been fired! Then converted to a stern attack! Very critical profile and I remember rolling out to see the target disappearing into the wide blue yonder! Pulled up for height and started the glide back to base! Can’t remember heights/ speeds etc but landed above minimums! An interesting experience!


Oh the target I believe was contracted to the MOD and contained no passengers.

[Martin the Martian]

I hope the missile fire button was working better than the exclamation mark key on your keyboard, newt.

[Davef68]

I was flying Air France between Paris and Madrid some 15 years ago, when I just happened to look out of the window and a bright orange aircraft (Alphajet?) flew within 50 feet, left to right and over the top of us. A blink and you miss it event.

I did speak to the Captain, who was totally unaware.
On a Brymon Dash 8 flight from Bristol to Edinburgh (as pax), I saw a high speed red and yellow aircraft travel above us perpendicular to our course. At that time could only have been a Meteor from Llanbedr (Or a Jindivik, but I doubt that!)

[Minnie Burner]

ORAC
Good post on a fantasy thread. But the mystery F3 Lightning pilot was DF. He'd taken a stern shot but was determined to get some "guns film" and was prepared to divert to Colt to get it. He did not suffer a radio failure, the Lightning seldom did. In fact Colt gave him a sit-in turn around and had him back on cap within 30mins.
NEWT
Good luck with the new keyboard.
"Newt, downwind exclamation mark".......
"Sorry that should be: downwind full stop"

[ORAC]

Minnie, you are confusing two separate occasions.

The radio failure was a BK Ltg intercepting Concorde. The WT Ltg intercept and diversion I discussed was intercepting a FAF Mirage IV several years previously.

[Minnie Burner]

Thanks ORAC. I stand corrected.

[safetypee]

Back in the late 60’s it was extremely unlikely that any armed (QRA) aircraft would intercept a civil aircraft excepting ‘the unidentified’. One notable quip was a real QRA against an unknown incoming; the ident was broadcast as an MD80, to which the ground reply was ‘how do you know that’ - “ because it’s written on the side of the aircraft” !

There were also some no-notice QRA flights - often unidentified returning ELINT, no dip clearance etc. More often these were terminated as ‘we now have identification, rtb’, or rarely after ident (coded broadcast), the type was not to be disclosed.

[GeeRam]

I remember well a sortie against Concorde from Wattisham! in a Mk6 Lightning. Initially a head on supersonic to fire Red Top Missile acquired and for real would have been fired! Then converted to a stern attack! Very critical profile and I remember rolling out to see the target disappearing into the wide blue yonder! Pulled up for height and started the glide back to base! Can’t remember heights/ speeds etc but landed above minimums! An interesting experience!


Oh the target I believe was contracted to the MOD and contained no passengers!


Probably one of the pre-production aircraft out of Filton then, as BA didn't operate its first Concorde PAX flight until late January 1976, or it was one of BA's pre-service crew training flights, asIIRC, 111 gave up its Lightnings in Sept '74 and 56 gave up its Lightnings in June '76.

[ORAC]

Concorde did many of its supersonic trial flights during 1975/1976 under control of the UKADGE. They didn’t want to have frequent frequency changes and we set up a common frequency shared by Neatishead, Boulmer, Buchan, Saxa Vord and Benbecula.

Concorde would be handed over to Neatishead coating out over East Anglia and be cleared to climb and go high speed heading north and would then be handed from controller to controller as they flew a large loop north of Sax and then back down the Irish Sea. I never saw or controlled anyone trying an intercept against them, but it is possible.

I did control one flight in a weekend when Boulmer wasn’t manned and the controller at Buchan had a U/S radio, so they called the Saxa controller to their Ops room - and all the time Concorde was heading north at 20nm a minute. I eventually handed them over just about abeam Aberdeen - I was just thankful they were at FL600.

I remember the first such trial, which was controlled by one of the old Warrant Officer controllers. The crew had been told to call Neatishead and obviously knew nothing about the names and locations of the AD radar sites as, after they checked and were cleared to accelerate they asked him to spell Neatishead and then when quiet for a couple of minutes as they tried, and failed, to find it on their flight documents. They then asked him for our location and, gleefully echoing the words of the FC recruiting film of the day, solemnly replied we were, “An Air Defence radar site, somewhere on the east coast of England”.....

[BEagle]

ORAC wrote: Back in the 1970s Air Anglia in and out of Norwich we’re outraged if they weren't intercepted - it was one reason many flew with them.

F-4s from pre-pongo Wattisham intercepted the AirUK 'Norwich flyer' on many occasions. Which when 'Bondage' and I were on the way home from yet another boring JMC debrief in the early '80s was rather embarrassing as we were in the AirUK F-27 and were intercepted by an F-4 from our own squadron. But the delightful CC were feeding us with large G&Ts at the time and though it all rather amusing...

[Herod]

Not an intercept, but operating the F27 Norwich to Humberside we frequently found ourselves occupying the same airspace as the FJ people. I recall one day being told by the controller "the best avoiding action I can give you is a 360 degree turn"

[MAINJAFAD]

That seems implausible unless the Concorde was subsonic.
The Lightning had Mach 2 capability, but not for long, hardly enough to climb to Concorde level 60,000 ft and then do barrel rolls.

A Lightning F3 managed to make a stern intercept on a Concorde over the North Sea on 2nd April 1985 at Mach 2.2 at 57,000 feet. The pilot Mike Hale has written about it and the claim is backed up by an entry in the 11 Squadron ORB for that month. The fighter controller who set up the intercept is mentioned in the RAF Boulmer ORB. plus the fact that Boulmer controlled two Concorde v Lightning sorties that month. One interesting note in the Boulmer ORB is the route of the Concorde on the Hale Sortie. Moscow to Edinburgh. G-BOAC definitely landed at Edinburgh that day according to a spotters website and a Concorde did do a charter flight with passengers to Moscow on the 12th April 1985, so I suspect BA did do a trial flight to Moscow first. It would be interesting to know what the Concorde's route was.

[ORAC]

Well to reach the speed I would have thought it must have gone north and coasted out around the Kola peninsula, did a supersonic flight down the Norwegian Sea into the North Sea before decelerating and turning right to land at Edinburgh. Boulmer would have down the intercept they did all the BK high flying intercepts. I presume the F3 would held and come off a tanker in TTL 5 or 6.

[2 TWU]

Things don't always go as planned. Airborne from Coningsby with a Flt Cdr nav in the back, to to be honest not the sharpest tool in the rack. Brief was for a bog standard head on Fox 1 with stern conversion. Good long range pick up to F1, as we began the stern conversion I suggested he looked out at the DC 9 we had just splashed.