Flying School Owner makes AFR rich list

[neville_nobody]

I see on the front page of the AFR that the owner of Soar Aviation has made the AFR Young Rich List. Given those things are vetted for family money that is an incredible achievement. Most operators spend a lifetime going broke so to be that successful in aviation by 30 and not be bankrupt or shut down by the regulator is unbelievable.

[Horatio Leafblower]

He has always been very very effective at marketing, and at the end of the day it is the dollars in the account that really matters in business.

Whether the business has been effective at training pilots is another question. Based on experience we will not hire anyone who has worked there or trained there.

[Chronic Snoozer]

They appear to be using a Cobham aircraft in advertising on their website. Anyone know of a connection?

https://soar.edu.au/our-history/

[zanthrus]

He started with a few million from the family in India, then over the years has stolen the rest from the public selling groupons with no intention to honour them and marketing joy flights as RAAUS Tif's which is very illegal. So many "students" can't speak english, not a word! Obviously Chinese tourists with no intention of embarking on flight training. He has a long history of short paying his employees as well. Neel your bad karma is coming for you.

[Ascend Charlie]

The website uses an expression which makes me grate my teeth:

"Trial Introductory Flight."

No, it's a Trial Instructional Flight, or a Training Introductory Flight.

[AussieNick]

They appear to be using a Cobham aircraft in advertising on their website. Anyone know of a connection?

https://soar.edu.au/our-history/

Reckon the folks over at Cobham and AMSA would be very interested in the use of that image......

[Squawk7700]

I counted 27 aircraft at their Moorabbin base yesterday afternoon. That would have to be more than Oxford surely I’m guessing or if not, close to it.


Presumably you’re referring to the fact that generally around 30% of Gift Vouchers in flying schools are never redeemed? That’s very different to not honouring them at all...

He started with a few million from the family in India, then over the years has stolen the rest from the public selling groupons with no intention to honour them

There are articles about how he sold TIF’s on Groupon and sold so many that it funded the purchase of their first aircraft, a Jabiru.

[neville_nobody]

Reckon the folks over at Cobham and AMSA would be very interested in the use of that image

So are the private jet owners whose aircraft appear on aircraft brokers websites making out that your aircraft is at their beckon call........you can't do anything about it. It's just a photo of a CL-604

[Lead Balloon]

I think you’re correct, nev. It’s just a silhouette of an aircraft in the air. (BTW: It’s “beck and call” not “beckon call”...).

Clever marketing on SOAR’s behalf, though.

[junior.VH-LFA]

It’s easy to make a profit when you lie with your marketing.

[Flaming galah]

Irrespective of all the criticism people are levelling against this guy, much respect for his entrepreneurial success.

[Arctaurus]

Pity their instructors can't teach the students how to fly a circuit that stays within reasonable distances from the runway or maybe it's the instructors who have no clue.

What an organisation - not

[Squawk7700]

Pity their instructors can't teach the students how to fly a circuit that stays within reasonable distances from the runway


That over-sized circuit including over the coast line to the west and Parkmore to the east has been taught at ALL Moorabbin schools for at least the 20 years that I’ve been flying in there for !

[Ixixly]

Zanthrus, your colours are showing again. Funny thing about Groupon, the business doesn't get any of the money till the coupon is actually redeemed. So would you like to recant that particular statement? I can't speak to the rest but know that one as I've been talking to some people about Groupon for my own business recently (A Path I won't be going down personally).

[Runaway Gun]

Soar Aviation offers globally recognised qualifications and licences

Can I use my Australian CPL in the USA, UK or France?

[Checkboard]

You can if you're flying an Australian reg. aircraft.

The USA will issue you a US CPL if you show them you're Australian CPL and want to fly a US reg. aircraft (but the licence will be restricted from commercial operations until you pass a check).

[Okihara]

You can also downgrade an Aussie CPL/ATPL to a foreign PPL if you're happy to fly privately only. In fact, this is a surprisingly straightforward process with the FAA. The only cost involved was obviously $50 to CASA to have them send a letter with your FCL qualifications to the FAA. The latter will provide you with a verification letter that you'll have to take with your Aussie FCL to the nominated airfield where your FAA licence will be given to you.

[Horatio Leafblower]

OF course, this is all sour grapes and tall poppy syndrome.

[Global Aviator]

OF course, this is all sour grapes and tall poppy syndrome.

I don’t know anyone here or anything about the business, however you beat me to it!!!

Straya loves the tall poppy syndrome.

:) :) :)

[The name is Porter]

uhmmmm, sour grapes or not (and I'm saying nothing about this one) you may want to watch this space, it'll be an interesting read ;-)

[Squawk7700]

uhmmmm, sour grapes or not (and I'm saying nothing about this one) you may want to watch this space, it'll be an interesting read ;-)

Do yCou havAe a propSosed timAeline for this?

[djpil]

That over-sized circuit including over the coast line to the west and Parkmore to the east has been taught at ALL Moorabbin schools for at least the 20 years that I’ve been flying in there for !What a lot of rubbish. True that some make bigger circuits than most. Soar's aeroplanes are usually well inside faster airplanes. Easy to check at webtrak.

[Squawk7700]

What a lot of rubbish. True that some make bigger circuits than most. Soar's aeroplanes are usually well inside faster airplanes. Easy to check at webtrak.

That comment was a little tongue in cheek! Well suffice to say they can be a fair bit bigger than other more rural airfields.

[MikeHatter732]

Great article in the Australian yesterday. Time for the scam that is Soar aviation to be unravelled. If only Four Corners would get on this story (Aerospace ring a bell anyone??)! :hmm:

[mcoates]

Okay, someone has to ask.... Being 2000 km away from them, what is the problem ?

[Ixixly]

Maybe not just a case of jealously or tall poppy syndrome after all?

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/student-pilots-demand-refund-claim-they-didnt-get-promised-training/news-story/9363cc867e05ad684ef822fe9d4b06d9?fbclid=IwAR0w96ocOMic7xtzzo hDMa_orVSr8-SiD58WW6YgUXq9ZlyubVVoRrw2oeI

[Capt Fathom]

That news article requires a subscription!

[Ixixly]

Woops, sorry Fathom, for some reason I'm able to access it anyway!

"Fifteen former students of Australia’s biggest flight training school are seeking to have huge loans refunded because they claim they did not receive the training they were promised.
Since May 2016, 939 students have enrolled in Box Hill Institute’s Commercial Pilot’s Licence diploma, offered in partnership with Soar Aviation Flight Training. Almost all of those (98 per cent) relied upon VET student loans as the sole source of funding for the course. Department of Education figures showed that last year, more than $11m was loaned to 402 students of Box Hill.
In the same year, only six people were recorded as graduating from the CPL course although Soar Aviation insists 61 students successfully obtained their pilot’s licence.
A report prepared by Box Hill Institute, seen by The Australian, showed staff were aware of concerns about the delivery of the CPL course due to the large intake of students. It also revealed more than 30 complaints from students were actively being investigated.
Central to the issue was the requirement for students to repeat flights at further cost, after they were deemed competent.
“Our students are made to go over the minimal and allocated hours, pass the census dates to trigger the next amount of money then told to pay thousands of dollars more to complete their course,” said the report.
A group of 15 students wrote to Victoria’s Minister for Education with their concerns, and received a response from Minister for Higher Education, Gayle Tierney.
Ms Tierney advised that she was aware of the complaints regarding the delivering of the diploma by Box Hill Institute and had asked her department to investigate. A department spokeswoman confirmed the investigation was ongoing.
The Special Investigations Unit of the Australian Skills Quality Authority was conducting its own inquiries.
Former student Lukesh Kumar said he and his fellow students felt they had been misled by Soar and Box Hill and were no closer to realising their dream of becoming pilots.
“I was advised that I would be training under the Civil Aviation Safety Authority syllabus, I would be trained on a Cessna 172 aircraft, and would also have work placement upon completion of my CPL,” said Nerita Somers in a letter co-signed by a dozen other students.
Instead, Ms Somers began her training in a Foxbat and was made to take out membership with Recreational Aviation Australia.
“The school has debited a total of $77,506 which includes the CPL component despite having not delivered the flight training component pertaining to this licence,” she said.
“I am still waiting to complete my flying for the Private Pilot’s Licence, and have had multiple training flights purposely repeated, despite no earlier intervention on rectifying the training outcome.”
Mr Kumar said they were not made aware of key differences between Soar Aviation and other flight training schools such as CAE Oxford Aviation Academy, Basair and Flight Training Adelaide. The Civil Aviation Safety Authority confirmed Soar Aviation had a Part 141 approval rather than a Part 142 which prepared students for airline operations.
Box Hill Institute chief executive Vivienne King said they had received complaints about the training at Soar and as a result “improvement strategies” had been introduced.
These included monthly management communication meetings with Soar senior management to discuss student concerns.
“BHI has appointed a dedicated full-time manager of curriculum and quality to assist with compliance against all required standards,” said Ms King.
“Delivering high quality training is our top priority and we take the success of our students extremely seriously.”
Soar Aviation CEO Neel Khokhani said they were in the business of graduating “quality pilots and endeavoured to meet the highest standards of flight training.
“Providing students additional flying time allows them the necessary hand eye skill required to graduate from the course,” Mr Khokhani said.
The students’ matter is now before the Victorian Civil Administrative Tribunal (VCAT) with an initial hearing set down for November 20."

[Clare Prop]

So, all the money has actually come from us taxpayers then in the form of VET loans. which are going up to a whopping $150,000 in January.

I thought there was more scrutiny than in the days when it started and a certain number of people have to successfully graduate and find work in industry in order for the loans to continue. Can anyone here elaborate on that?

[Squawk7700]

I can’t help but feel like I want to blame some of the students after reading this. These RTO’s have made it possible for any Tom, Dick or Harry to get into flight training and they may not be suited for it. It’s no different to heading off to do a Marketing degree or similar. Late nights, working 2 jobs part time, uni exams etc, it’s all too much for many.

Once they investigate, they will probably find that the graduation rate isn’t as bad as it first seems.

Will be interesting to see what pans out.

Short of the students leaving the country, the loans have to be paid back with interest.

[Horatio Leafblower]

I can’t help but feel like I want to blame some of the students after reading this.

I thought that too. The 4Corners Hatchet-job on Aerospace Aviation was a great example of the students not applying themselves. I was told stories of students hit by cars and in hospital with a broken leg - "You need to be here for your son" - "So when will I get a refund???"

[Capt Fathom]

I can’t help but feel like I want to blame some of the students after reading this. These RTO’s have made it possible for any Tom, Dick or Harry to get into flight training and they may not be suited for it.
How can you blame the students? They don’t know any better!

[ramble on]

Is there a serious innuendo that certain flying schools are stripping students of VET fees while not genuinely able to train them.

That seems like a really big story for any investigative journalist worth their salt and possibly worthy of gaol time for perpetrators against our young.

A decent start point would be to look at training capability and assets for training output of the school versus the students on the books to see if there was any genuine capability or even intention to train them.

Look at reputable institutions - and their capabilities as a barometer. What are the decent Melbourne based training colleges? How many aircraft, instructors and daily and weekly training slots do they have per student.

Back of a drink coaster: - a school with 10 aircraft
20 training slots per day
200 flights per week
10 instructors
5 flights per week per student
Does 40 students per week seem reasonable?
It does to me......for a bloody busy flying school.
So it would be reasonable for them to hold themselves out to 200 students with VET fees as being able to train them?

Perhaps some smelly stuff in here for you Byron et al that might actually help some youngsters in trouble through leeches in the industry.....

[Horatio Leafblower]

Here's a thought: SORE is the only GA organisation that Michael McCormack has been photographed in front of. So long as he is leader, SOAR will not be punished because he knows that to do so will hand his enemies a big stick to beat him with.

[Lead Balloon]

Shame on you for that suggestion, Horatio.

These matters are about objective safety risk, not politics.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Shame on you for that suggestion, Horatio.


You're right. I'll fine myself 100 penalty units.

[Squawk7700]

How can you blame the students? They don’t know any better!

The problem is that the same thing can happen when you enroll in a science degree, arts degree, IT or any other degree for that matter...

I will never forget my first ever university lecture. It was 20-30% over subscribed. Students hanging from the roof and filling up the aisles. The lecturer said, “don’t worry, there will be more room soon as most of you will never graduate.”

Of the 400 in the room, there was only about 30 that graduated with me.

[Left 270]

“Providing students additional flying time allows them the necessary hand eye skill required to graduate from the course,” Mr Khokhani said.

So they’re on the 200hr syllabus yet the instructors can’t teach basic hand eye coordination with that time frame?

[Sunfish]

The problem is that the same thing can happen when you enroll in a science degree, arts degree, IT or any other degree for that matter...

I will never forget my first ever university lecture. It was 20-30% over subscribed. Students hanging from the roof and filling up the aisles. The lecturer said, “don’t worry, there will be more room soon as most of you will never graduate.”

Of the 400 in the room, there was only about 30 that graduated with me.


‘My experience, 50 years ago, is exactly the same as Squawks.

[BigPapi]

So they’re on the 200hr syllabus yet the instructors can’t teach basic hand eye coordination with that time frame?

I'm speculating, but the 200 hour syllabus likely has no more time dedicated to ab-initio flying than the 150 hour syllabus. The differences will be in navigation and command hours.

[ramble on]

50 years ago Sunny I imagine that you didn’t pay much up front.

Its such a shame we are selling out on our youth. $120-150k at GA wages?

Its no wonder that not many want a bar of aviation in Oz...between CASAs f-cked-up regulation suite, costs of compliance, nepotism, privately owned infastructure....

Makes me wish I’d payed more attention playing Monopoly as a kid. I

There’s a goal for you youngsters - go places and turn Australia back into the smart hardworking country it used to be. Then we mightn’t need to be so Lucky.

I am sorry that my generation were such f-cking pushovers.

[Squawk7700]

‘My experience, 50 years ago, is exactly the same as Squawks.

... and that’s where the similarities between us end!

[outlandishoutlanding]

Back of a drink coaster: - a school with 10 aircraft
20 training slots per day
200 flights per week
10 instructors
5 flights per week per student
Does 40 students per week seem reasonable?
It does to me......for a bloody busy flying school.
So it would be reasonable for them to hold themselves out to 200 students with VET fees as being able to train them?


10 aircraft and 20 training slots per day is actually 200 flights per day, not 200 a week, but I'm not sure how you get 20 training slots per day.

10 aircraft, 14 training hrs per day (assuming you have people doing night/IFR) - 10 hrs actually flown

Assuming 1 aircraft US per day (100hrly once every ten days) = 90 flying hrs per day

630 flying hrs per week lets you have 3 hrs per week per student at 200 students

once they're past PPL stage the dual load is less so say 1/3 of those hours are dual

200 dual hours per week = 10000 dual hours per year = 10 instructors.

[heli_azz]

"Department of Education figures showed that last year, more than $11m was loaned to 402 students of Box Hill.
In the same year, only six people were recorded as graduating from the CPL"

Hello!!! what is actually wrong with these people ...... that amount of money into someone's pocket for what seems for nothing!

[Ixixly]

outlandishoutlanding you're assuming only 1 out of 10 US per day? What about when they have a week or two of terrible weather in a row (annually according to climate data they have about 82days per year with over 1mm of rainfall, that's about 20%)? What about Instructors being sick and having to cancel? I'd be keen to hear from someone who has better knowledge as to what their actual Aircraft Hours Utilisation Rate is? I'm guessing around the 50-60% mark for a busy school? And besides these are all fictitious numbers pulled out as a starting point, not actual fleet numbers or student numbers for Soar.

For those who mentioned it, there is meant to be high scrutiny from the Education Department in terms of number of students that are passing in the allotted timeframes for providers who have access to VET FEE, so undoubtedly these will be getting extra scrutiny now in light of the number of people that have made reports. Either they'll find this rate is indeed abysmally low and wonder why they haven't noticed it sooner or they'll find the rate is acceptable and either that's because the rate is actually acceptable and they're doing the right thing or they're doing the wrong thing to meet that quotient. All of this is to say that whilst it is more accessible to people these days to get Government backed funding there are checks and balances that are put in place to stop people being taken in that shouldn't.

That being said I don't know what the requirement is like these days in terms of the Flight School or Provider to do interviews prior to entry to make sure they take on those that are capable. I'm pretty sure in New Zealand they're strict on it due to availability of training slots and they well should be here too to make sure that people are fully aware of what they're signing up for with such a massive debt.

[Clare Prop]

How about when the students are sick or no-shows.

Disclaimer, I don't know anything about this particular school and keep an open mind, some people just don't have what it takes to be a pilot no matter how many hors they fly and there are always two sides to these stories...but how many flying schools are going to tell them that before squeezing 150 grand out of the feds on their behalf? I've heard of some places that will charge their account for the full lesson anyway and the student doesn't care as it's not "their" money. One friend, who worked at one of the many big schools that had VET approval then collapsed in a heap and left instructors unpaid and students with a big debt and not even a logbook to show for it despite this manna from heaven, said a huge chunk of that taxpayers' money goes in these "no show" fees.

Literally, money for nothing for the flying school.

Good to hear there is scrutiny bearing in mind the stories of the rorts when these loans first came in. For schools that don't want to do this kind of bulk training it is difficult to compete with what students perceive as "free" training and I would have probably fallen for it too, you can't blame the students who think they have found an easy cheap short cut, the marketing hook.

I think there is a place for government help, but it should be for people already in industry with a good employment track record to upgrade with ratings etc. Does having an endless supply of fugly CPLs really do anything to reduce the so-called shortage?

Final question, The stories of this fellow being sacked for making a suggestion that the boss try using different aircraft, surely there is a bit more to it than that?

This is all interesting to me because when people make reports like that in the national media a bit of mud sticks to all flying schools.

[aroa]

Recent shenanigans in other "training schemes" spruiked by politicians and neglected by the bureaucrazys that fail in their oversight of the organizations that offer the training...and the dismal end results. But think of the $$$s YOURS. GONE.
Why would the Govt throw money at them even BEFORE they get a result.?
Smarties that can smell govt money a mile off, are right in there to enrich themselves....at taxpayer expense.

In the dim dark past the Aero Club that got me out the door with a fully fledged PPL got a costs subsidy to top up the rate /hour paid by the student. After the event of a dinkum outcome.

Govts and bureaurats should get the hell out of dabbling in businesses .
Leave it to free enterprise. A training organisation will work ok if it does happy students...ie satisfied with the training and value for their money.
If they persevere and struggle financially... all to the good. It means they really do want to be a pilot ...and will value the end result accordingly.
Someone who gets a 'free' licence . if even they go that far, will forget the debt and vanish into the woodwork.

Be very interesting to see a stats analysis...No.of students, hours flown, hours lectured, no of different instructors each student had., amount of $$s involved, no of days nothing happened due wxand etc Could be very informative.

Its not only flying students that need hand /eye coordination.!!

[Squawk7700]

Final question, The stories of this fellow being sacked for making a suggestion that the boss try using different aircraft, surely there is a bit more to it than that?

It said in the article it was a conversation over beers after work; didn’t sound overly formal.

Some of the articles said Groupon and some said Scoopon.

[De_flieger]

Final question, The stories of this fellow being sacked for making a suggestion that the boss try using different aircraft, surely there is a bit more to it than that?

At a guess, that's a positive spin, maybe a bit one-sided, on a situation as recounted to the reporters writing the article. The boss may have been reacting to being told how to run his flying school and phrased it as "If you're so smart you can go do your own thing, and don't let the door hit your bum on the way out". One person's transmission of "you're a pain in the backside and fired for constant insubordination" might be received as, or told later to the reporters as, "I'm encouraging you to grow as an independent businessman, elsewhere" - not that that is automatically what happened, but it could have been the case.

[glenb]

Im going to somewhat lend my support to Neel on this.

It is true what he says. I assume that its me he is talking about. Neel did work for me at MFT after leaving another school.

He did approach me with a business model. At the time, I had my own business model, which differed somewhat to his. I was happy with mine, and it provided me with the work environment that was important to me.

He believed very strongly in his concept, I wouldn't budge on mine. We parted ways. There was slightly more to it, but nothing sinister.


The article was primarily about something else. If he was to summarise it in a sentence, as he did, he is being truthful.

Do I have any regrets. None at all. I will say, he had a plan, he executed it, and he achieved the business model he was after. Not many achieve that.

Are we on each others Christmas card list, maybe not, but i must somewhat take my hat off to him.

[Clare Prop]

There was much discussion over on another thread a while ago about how some overseas school had put pre paid flying in the assets rather than the liabilities column....made the balance sheet look great even though they would have been insolvent if they had had to refund all pre paid money. I think that included groupons or something similar, there are many of them.

I would like to see how any of these schools that are being heavily subsidised by the government would still be around if the taxpayers' money tap was turned off.

As a taxpayer I am not happy that the amount these people have lobbied for has been approved to increase to $150G per student. In my experience we had a stude who had nearly finished PPL, then got sucked into one of these courses "Sorry to leave but they are offering me free flying" he said.. They made him start all over again. They bled him dry then went bust. He still had no PPL and a massive debt. Understandably, he gave it up. For the amount he was loaned, he could have finished his CPL with us and would be in an airline by now.

[Ixixly]

You can't be serious glenb? If he is running what amounts to essentially a scam then whether he is making money or not right now is completely redundant as it seems it's about to all fall apart on him and I don't doubt the Education Department will be out for every penny they can scrape off him for it. A business model that relies on pulling the wool over the eyes of their customers and the government cannot be considered good in any way, shape or form.

And the worst part is that we all her are partly paying for it, the $11million that has gone to them through VET-FEE, that's our personal tax dollars at work and the tax charged on your business and mine too. They're a drain on everyone and should NEVER be commended.

[glenb]

Absolutely I concur. I may not have made my view clear, but the issue is somewhat important to me.

Nothing is proven until a fair process has been conducted. Businesses, and peoples livelihoods can be destroyed in a moment, in this day and age. I have heard all the stories, and if proven, the due processes will be followed. But quite simply, it is an article at this stage.

At the moment the allegations I believe have stemmed from an article in the Australian. That alone, shouldn't be able to destroy a business. I am sure the Owners interest is to move out of the area of speculation, and into a more factual arena ASAP. The outcome of that, is what a business should live or die on, in my opinion.

Presumption of innocence until proven guilty. Its important. It really is.

The entire aviation industry needs to operate in that environment, if we expect growth and investment. There needs to be stability.

Trust in fair processes. For clarification, I aint blindly leaping to anyones defence, remember it was me that sacked him. Be mindful, its not a business model that appeals to me or most flying school owners, but that doesn't mean its wrong.

A fair and controlled process is what needs to happen, with opportunities to demonstrate good intent, and improve. That's the first step, in getting confidence into the industry.

Sorry folk, I don't want to get too controversial, Ive got my hands full somewhere else....

[Ixixly]

glenb, that's a very fair point as well. I sincerely hope it gets dealt with properly and that those that have done the wrong thing are held to account.

[glenb]

Cheers. More good people keep their livelihoods that way.

[Superfly Slick Dick]

G’day Glen!

I hope you’re doing well mate.

I had to laugh.. I remember a story I once heard; With regard to your old Ops manual at MFT.. what was the colour of the football that the Ops manual instructed be wedged into the door during a Forced Landing?

[glenb]

It was a bright green one. Sat in the ops manual for many many years.

Hundreds read the ops manual, and few ever saw it.

True story. Whoever told you that, obviously read the ops manual. Ahhh, the good old days when GA was fun.

[Clare Prop]

Who would be refunding the loans to them should they be successful, the Rich List owner, the TAFE or us taxpayers? It's our money that has already been thrown away so I would be hoping we taxpayers would be getting it back, rather than paying twice.

From The Australian: https://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...db66edec0b5a24 (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/pilot-courses-on-hold-during-audit/news-story/a729a3f4cba32a0285db66edec0b5a24) Enrolments in aviation courses with Box Hill Institute are believed to be on hold as the TAFE college responds to an audit by the Australian Skills Quality Authority.

As The Australian revealed last week, 15 former students of Box Hill and Soar Aviation were seeking refunds of their VET loans because they were unhappy with the training they received. That figure has grown to 35 students, including 30 from Melbourne and five from Sydney.

It followed revelations more than 400 students were enrolled in two-year commercial pilots’ licence courses at Box Hill in 2018, which had received $11m in loan payments in return.

Department of Education figures showed only six people had graduated from the diploma course but Soar Aviation CEO Neel Khokhani said the figure was as high as 61. Box Hill CEO Vivienne King confirmed ASQA had audited aviation delivery at the institute and it was currently responding to the audit report as requested.

Robyn Ironside

[Ixixly]

I bet the number of people asking for refunds is about to... "Soar" :E

[Ixixly]

Reports of fleet grounded...guessing business decision by the owner. Anyone able to comment?

[BigPapi]

Reports of fleet grounded...guessing business decision by the owner. Anyone able to comment?

Are you able to elaborate any further? What "reports"?

[Glenns]

Email from Soar & BHI confirming grounding. No other details. Tried to ring SOAR yesterday for more information. As soon as i started asking questions as to reasons the call was terminated by SOAR

[junior.VH-LFA]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/616x1334/img_5088_709dedae0c9e6be27ec391afa525f7679e68c3d5.jpg

[Glenns]

Hmmmmm. When I spoke with SOAR (before i was hung up on) they were trying to tell me the flight suspensions were weather related!

[BigPapi]

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/616x1334/img_5088_709dedae0c9e6be27ec391afa525f7679e68c3d5.jpg

wow.

BIG oof

[B772]

How generous !

[Clare Prop]

The bigger they are the harder they fall.

Hoping the cancellation fees will be investigated.

[The name is Porter]

Just the beginning lads/laddettes. You're hearing about 5% of what is going on.

[Styx75]

I've heard that CASA are tracking down all G2 and G1 instructors that got their ab-initio hours flying at soar, asking them to send proof that their hours were obtained in VH registered aircraft. Though haven't heard about anyone being downgraded so far (can that even happen?)

[Squawk7700]

I've heard that CASA are tracking down all G2 and G1 instructors that got their ab-initio hours flying at soar, asking them to send proof that their hours were obtained in VH registered aircraft. Though haven't heard about anyone being downgraded so far (can that even happen?)

Here we go again! Are you saying that RA-Aus hours don’t count towards anything ?

[Cloudee]

Here we go again! Are you saying that RA-Aus hours don’t count towards anything ?
CASA don’t count GA instructor’s hours for an upgrade if those hours are in RAAus aircraft. How instructors would teach straight and level lessons differently in RAAus aircraft, I don’t know. The can’t logically defend their decision, they just point to the ambiguous legislation they wrote and interpret it to suit themselves.

[YPJT]

I wonder if the AFR might review their assessment criteria before they start bestowing accolades.

[Clare Prop]

From The Australian: https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/flight-training-suspended-at-soar-aviation/news-story/f8139bddbce46bc2ee6a9f89957c46e6


Flight training has been temporarily suspended at Australia’s largest pilot academy, Soar Aviation, after training partner Box Hill Institute demanded documentation about its fleet.The TAFE college informed students of the three-day hiatus in flight training late Friday (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/pilot-courses-on-hold-during-audit/news-story/a729a3f4cba32a0285db66edec0b5a24), saying Box Hill Institute “maintains safety as its top priority”.It comes as a growing group of current and former students seek a refund of their VET loan money from Box Hill and Soar, based on their claims they did not receive the training they were promised.Their complaints to Victoria’s Department of Education are now the subject of an inquiry by the Special Investigations Unit.The Australian Skills Quality Authority, which is the regulatory body for VET loan-related courses, has also been examining the aviation courses provided by Box Hill and Soar.ASQA delivered its report to the TAFE college last week, and CEO Vivienne King said they were “responding as requested”.That was followed by the email to students, informing them the college had “requested Soar to suspend flying for BHI students for the next few days”.“We will provide further information as soon as we can,” read the email from the college’s aviation department.A further email to students from Soar Aviation, signed by CEO Neel Khokhani, said “Box Hill Institute had requested documentation in relation to our fleet”.“We will be “pausing flight operations until this is provided,” Mr Khokhani said.“We will automatically cancel any flights you have booked for Saturday, Sunday and Monday. “You will not be charged for these flights.”He apologised for any inconvenience and promised to “be in touch soon”.One of the concerns raised by students was that their training was being conducted in Foxbat recreational aircraft rather than the Cessna 172s they were promised.The students also complained they were being made to redo training runs repeatedly despite being proficient, at an added cost.Federal Department of Employment figures show in the first six months of 2019, 289 people were enrolled in the Commercial Pilot’s Licence diploma course at Box Hill at a cost of $7.1m in VET loans.The data showed the unit of study completion rate was 47.6 per cent.Flight Training Adelaide had 32 students enrolled at a cost of just under $900,000 in VET student loans, with a 100 per cent completion rate.Mr Khokhani, 30, was recently named on Australia’s Young Rich List, based on his $66m fortune.Soar partnered with Box Hill in 2016, and according to Department of Employment data has produced fewer than 20 graduates.But Mr Khokhani said 61 people had successfully obtained their CPL with many going on to jobs in the aviation industry, including as flight instructors.

[Alpha Whiskey Bravo]

Money will not be charged because you cancelled the flights??? Are you kidding me?

[YPJT]

61 people had successfully obtained their CPL with many going on to jobs in the aviation industry, including as flight instructors.
I wonder just what jobs in the aviation industry? Baggage handlers, aircraft cleaners, check-in staff. If they had gone on to actual flying jobs one would think you would really push that point.

[YPJT]

Money will not be charged because you cancelled the flights??? Are you kidding me?
No mate, I'll bet they have convinced themselves they are being overly generous on that point.

[Styx75]

Here we go again! Are you saying that RA-Aus hours don’t count towards anything ?
Dont shoot the rumor monger...

That said, a GA instructor can't teach RAAus, so if someone is teaching RAAus, how can they be exercising the privileges of their GA instructors endorsement to gain hours towards their G2/G1 upgrade?

But really, I don't care. Would be nice if it was written plainly in the regs so at least there wouldn't be arguments about it.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Mr Khokhani, 30, was recently named on Australia’s Young Rich List, based on his $66m fortune.... Mr Khokhani said 61 people had successfully obtained their CPL

$66m off the back of 61 CPL graduates. Nice margin!

[Ixixly]

Here we go again! Are you saying that RA-Aus hours don’t count towards anything ?

Completely besides the point here, if there needs to be clarification of the legalities of using RAA Aircraft for flight training it should have been sought by this business and surely CASA can't have just not noticed it for the last few years if so? I'm not aware of any other flying schools using such a large fleet of RAA Aircraft so surely it should have attracted some extra CASA checks and Soar themselves should have clarified the point knowing it was outside the norms and a bit of a grey area?

[YPJT]

HL,
Yeah mate rough maths works it out to $5,000 per hour on a 200 hr course.
As said above tip of the iceberg.

[Clare Prop]

If he has 66M then he can easily afford to refund these people out of his own pocket. Sadly I have never been within cooee of a rich list, how are these amounts actually measured?

[Sunfish]

Clare, the rich list are often “self reported”. The really smart people stay away from such fripperies as rich lists because they don’t want to be targeted and ambushed by charities, get rich quick schemers and the ever present clowns targeting their children. They are often very afraid of publicity.

Furthermore, from my experience, if you around some of these people long enough, you will discover the unpleasant truth about how they made their millions. Many of them I would call “not nice to be with” types.

[The name is Porter]

mmmmm.................I wonder why Box Hill want to look at the 'aircraft details' :hmm:

[BigPapi]

mmmmm.................I wonder why Box Hill want to look at the 'aircraft details' :hmm:

Surely....surely...they haven't been fooled for this long about the aircraft that their students are training in. Surely!

[The name is Porter]

Surely....surely...they haven't been fooled for this long about the aircraft that their students are training in. Surely!

It's not the type or registration details they are looking at ;)

[Squawk7700]

Surely....surely...they haven't been fooled for this long about the aircraft that their students are training in. Surely!

They wouldn't be looking at that anyway, because it's not the integrated 150 hour course, thus the RA-Aus hours count. They could be doing as high as 50-50 in each registration category and still get the same result.

[The name is Porter]

They wouldn't be looking at that anyway, because it's not the integrated 150 hour course, thus the RA-Aus hours count. They could be doing as high as 50-50 in each registration category and still get the same result.

Yep, correct.

[Ixixly]

Yep, correct.

Come on Porter, it's a rumour network for fecks sake, quit teasing and spill some beans!! haha

[Horatio Leafblower]

They could be doing as high as 50-50 in each registration category and still get the same result.

Actually, under Part 61 you can fly all 200 hours in a glider or a RAAus aircraft if you think you can then jump in a C182 or C206 and pass the flight test..... although it's not what I would recommend to any student of mine :rolleyes:

[The name is Porter]

Actually, under Part 61 you can fly all 200 hours in a glider or a RAAus aircraft if you think you can then jump in a C182 or C206 and pass the flight test..... although it's not what I would recommend to any student of mine

Yep, correct.

[TXU]

Looks like the proverbial karma train has finally caught up with this organisation!

[Superfly Slick Dick]

Have there been any further developments? I appreciate that today is a public holiday.. but will flying resume as normal tomorrow?
Have there been any further email updates?
I feel so sorry for the students..

[glenb]

HEADLINE- NEWS FLASH

20,000 people enrolled in Victoria in 2018 for the states 2 Year VCE Program. Scandal hits Victorian Education System. Students call for overhaul. Minister stands aside (highly unlikely admittedly), opposition calls for heads. As at 05/11/19 the state has recorded a staggering ZERO percent pass, and no-one has graduated.

The Minister for Education released a statement today, calling for calm, and waiting for the public to wait until the school year finished, and exams were completed. The Minister stated he was confident he could improve the statistics by years and called on the public for calm


Admittedly tongue in cheek. I have absolutely no inside information at all, I really don't. This isn't for the owners. This is for the employees and students.

There is absolutely no suggestion at all that I am aware of that anyones funds are at risk. There are robust procedures to protect such things.

There is no allegation that the Company isn't financially viable. It is well backed and resourced.

The training delay may go as short as a few days, but is likely to be solved, so that it should have little impact, probably similar to a bad week of Melbourne weather.

EVERYBODY wants it resolved, so it will be.

Regarding, inspecting the aircraft, it could be no more sinister than working out the difference between an RAA Aircraft and a GA Aircraft. They could potentially look for a week, and not find any differences.

A relatively small pool initiated what are obviously significant concerns. The concept of a "fee refund" and came up, and the number grew. That is reasonably to be expected.

There are rigid processes, and for all the good people that work there, they do deserve that to unfold.

I really make no suggestions whatsoever to guilt or innocence, just a healthy respect for fair processes, noting also that PPrune is absolutely the right forum for such discussion.

Pulling my head in permanently on this thread. Back a winner today folks, cheers

[havick]

What was advertised to the students as to what aircraft type they would be doing their training in?

Was there any advertising suggesting they would do any portion of their training in anything other than a GA aircraft?

[bloodandiron]

Looking at the SOAR social media pages, a lot of the students at SOAR seem to be... older and/or rougher. I'm sure a lot of them, before signing up to the course wouldn't really have an opinion of being trained in GA aircraft vs RAA aircraft. It's only when they hop online and read other people complaining that their ill feelings are validated and so they start to complain as well. For new students never being involved in aviation at all, it's basically a whole new world. One way to get ahead for these new students is to quickly adopt views from what they read online. It is an easy way to feign experience/knowledge and mitigate feelings of inferiority.

This phenomenon is also present with the CASA exams. When someone fails, they log in online and are able to see people complaining about CASA on a certain Facebook group therefore it validates their feelings that their exam fail wasn't their own fault for not studying properly, it was CASAs (defence mechanism)... I found the 7 CPL exams challenging, I failed four times, but never did I think it was the fault of the exam. Maybe I'm just on the same wavelength as Gavin.

So if the instructors or marketing team at SOAR specifically told, or just mislead students into believing they would be conducting training in GA 172 it is a matter for the Department. There were a bunch of dodgy RTOs at the inception of the loan system which resulted in specific legislation regarding advertising of training courses. But if the students were silly enough to sign up for a course WITHOUT RESEARCHING, assessing value etc (which is one of the obligations before signing up to a VET Student Loan course), getting half way in, failing CASA exams, blaming CASA, going online and getting riled up from other people complaining, they ought to suck it up.

These full time VSL courses are hard... by nature of being large schools, you can get lost in the system. You need to make sure you are getting flights booked regularly. You need to make sure you are thinking about what's coming up next and pre-studying for it without having to be told to. Re attempts and lesson repeats aren't covered by the student loan. Flight test fees, medical, ASIC etc aren't covered as well. It is stressful. But this is the reality of a full time course at a big school.

[Ixixly]

You want to be real careful up on that high horse there bloodandiron, there have been plenty of examples where it in fact was the fault of CASA for people failing exams and was only found out by people failing CASA Exams, blaming CASA, going online and getting riled up from other people complaining. The last big one I remember from my training was the Performance Exam which was a total fluster cuck from CASA. Don't assume they're infallible and don't go telling others they should just suck it up.

You're correct, re attempts and lesson repeats aren't covered but one really big thing brought up in this is that Soar were allegedly making people repeat flight sequences they'd already passed. When it comes to large schools as well the booking of flights is less in the hands of the Students and far more in the hands of the school itself and its staff.

Also "Older/rougher"? Where on earth did you get that from sunshine? You're talking real big for someone that only appears to have started their training back in 2017 and would barely be out with their CPL, perhaps feigning experience/knowledge to mitigate feelings of inferiority by jumping online?

[bloodandiron]

Why are you attacking me? I'm not an abstract person to hate. I'm another person with viewpoint, and I acknowledge the problem is nuanced. And I'm speaking from experience as a VSL student. Have you ever been through the system? I don't think it's entirely the fault of the students. I'm sure SOAR practices some nefarious methods e.g. like you said, of making students repeat lessons they successfully completed. I just think the culture of "CASA bad, SOAR bad, screw Foxbats" is becoming a little oversubscribed and turning into a hive-mind.

[Squawk7700]

Looking at the SOAR social media pages, a lot of the students at SOAR seem to be... older and/or rougher.

I'll interpret that for you...

You mean that they aren't trust-find kids where mummy and daddy aren't paying for their 150 hour integrated course.

These are students that have taken out a large vet-fee loan in order to get their CPL's in the hope that they will be able to land a job, versus those whose mummy and daddy pay for them, can just go on and do something else if the cadetship doesn't work out.

[Sunfish]

Blood and iron, look up the term “duty of care”. Students aren’t in a position to know it all or even to know what to research - otherwise they wouldn’t be ab initio students.

[Okihara]

Regarding that article in The Australian and the issue of repeats, one my former flight instructors used to work previously for Soar before he finally called it a day and jumped ships. I picked his brain on this, obviously, as he had first hand information. He named the "student rip-off culture" as the number one reason why he decided to change operators. Instructors were allegedly told to limit taxi speeds, spend extra time in the run-up bays, all on top of the very limited TAS of their Foxbat fleet. Also instructors had to come up with bogus reasons to repeat lessons. I can't verify his claims but the integrity of the man whom I really hold in high esteem is untarnished in my records.

As for signing up for a 150h course on Foxbat/Vixen/Bristell: just imagine how desperate you would be once you get a certain understanding of the system :ugh:

I know it's no option for foreign students but going the nonintegrated pathway is so much safer than tying yourself to a single school, and price-wise very similar if you build your hours on aircraft beyond those that schools offer.

[Dangly Bits]

They still aren't flying. I thought it was only for 3 days to get information about the fleet. What's the latest?

[RickNRoll]

The "Training" industry has become a large scale scam.

A whistleblower at Murdoch university is being sued by the university for telling the world they exploit their students. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-25/professor-quits-murdoch-university-over-whistleblower-case/11641228

Training "colleges" that rip off poor people or don't even train anyone. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-06/private-college-reaped-$2m-from-students-but-never-taught-class/11662164 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-06/private-college-reaped-m-from-students-but-never-taught-class/11662164)

[ramble on]

From what I have heard there might be a couple of other organisations in Victoria that might have some management going on the run.

If they are not, they should be if the rumours are true.

Gaol time you bastards.

[Clare Prop]

Clare, the rich list are often “self reported”. The really smart people stay away from such fripperies as rich lists because they don’t want to be targeted and ambushed by charities, get rich quick schemers and the ever present clowns targeting their children. They are often very afraid of publicity.

Furthermore, from my experience, if you around some of these people long enough, you will discover the unpleasant truth about how they made their millions. Many of them I would call “not nice to be with” types.


Interesting, thanks Sunny.Perhaps not such a good idea to stick his head above the parapet when there were already complaints coming in.

Meanwhile, another article by Robyn Ironside in The Australian today. https://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...c1d0e0d1f5896c (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/%22https:/www.pprune.org/left=https:/www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/soar-aviation-pilot-training-remains-suspended-pending-audit/news-story/e3c7fb87978a6d75ddc1d0e0d1f5896c%22)



And from the ABC: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-06/private-college-reaped-$2m-from-students-but-never-taught-class/11662164 (https://www.pprune.org/pacific-general-aviation-questions/%22https:/www.pprune.org/left=https:/www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-06/private-college-reaped-m-from-students-but-never-taught-class/11662164%22)

Sorry about formatting, can't seem to fix it

[Clare Prop]

There is another article by Robyn Ironside in The Australian, another on the ABC site about "ghost colleges"

[The name is Porter]

I wonder how them there details on the aircraft are going? Scanning and emailing should have it done in 3 days? Must be using snail mail? The 21 day countdown is on.

[Ixixly]

I wonder how them there details on the aircraft are going? Scanning and emailing should have it done in 3 days? Must be using snail mail? The 21 day countdown is on.

Probably takes a lot longer when you're having to cover up and shred it as you go as well, haha.

[The name is Porter]

Probably takes a lot longer when you're having to cover up and shred it as you go as well, haha.

There's that!

[Clare Prop]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-06/private-college-reaped-$2m-from-students-but-never-taught-class/11662164 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-06/private-college-reaped-m-from-students-but-never-taught-class/11662164)

[YPJT]

from the article posted by Clare:
"He ran a security business in 2003"
There's another industry long overdue for a shakeup.

[glenb]

I hope this doesn't count as a thread drift, but the intention is to give some students, a pointer to help them assess early on in their training, as to the quality of their training, and potentially avoid these problems snowballing.

There are probably dozens of indicators, but can I suggest that this is one of the more important ones.

AM I BEING ASSESSED?

Is your instructor really "assessing you", and managing your training? If you come back from a 3 hour nav, and made a mess of the forced landing.

If the instructor explains that you failed the exercise, and need to repeat it.

Wrong way. Instructor gives you the 3 hour nav route again, this time, you do a great forced landing and he/she signs you off.

Correct Way. Instructor identifies forced landing as a weakness, briefs appropriately, and you spend your money on three hours of forced landing practice.

The point being.

Analyse the training being given to you. Is your instructor preparing you for the flight, and drilling down to the problems. Is he/she identifying whether its a preparation challenge, a technical challenge, or an airmanship challenge. If you don't feel these processes are happening in your training, speak to your instructor, then CFI/HOO.

Absolutely, the onus should be on the school, but students need to actively equip themselves with the skills to determine if they are receiving quality training, early on, and act on it.

You cant undo, substandard training.

[Stretch06]

I hope this doesn't count as a thread drift, but the intention is to give some students, a pointer to help them assess early on in their training, as to the quality of their training, and potentially avoid these problems snowballing.

There are probably dozens of indicators, but can I suggest that this is one of the more important ones.

AM I BEING ASSESSED?

Is your instructor really "assessing you", and managing your training? If you come back from a 3 hour nav, and made a mess of the forced landing.

If the instructor explains that you failed the exercise, and need to repeat it.

Wrong way. Instructor gives you the 3 hour nav route again, this time, you do a great forced landing and he/she signs you off.

Correct Way. Instructor identifies forced landing as a weakness, briefs appropriately, and you spend your money on three hours of forced landing practice.

The point being.

Analyse the training being given to you. Is your instructor preparing you for the flight, and drilling down to the problems. Is he/she identifying whether its a preparation challenge, a technical challenge, or an airmanship challenge. If you don't feel these processes are happening in your training, speak to your instructor, then CFI/HOO.

Absolutely, the onus should be on the school, but students need to actively equip themselves with the skills to determine if they are receiving quality training, early on, and act on it.

You cant undo, substandard training.

A very valid point Glen.

I used to see it a lot, especially with first solo’s. Student couldn’t land, so repeat first solo check, still couldn’t land, repeat first solo check. When the required training was to go back to the training area and ensure the student could actually set attitudes, trim and understand the relationship between power and attitude etc.

I am yet to see any student pass without required some ‘extra’ training at some point in their syllabus. However, the art of a good instructor is to identify the root cause and provide remedial instruction focused on the root cause, not the entire lesson.

[simoro1]

Soar has recommenced operations as of this morning.

[Clare Prop]

From The Australian today: Apologies for strange formatting. What shows up in the preview isn't what you see when I post it.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/soar-aviation-pilot-training-resumes-after-review/news-story/5d0e5daf4ef95e0a1d673a6e07a81b11






Among [ASQA’s] concerns was misinformation about their course and the aircraft they would be flying, and being made to repeat training procedures which saw their loans exhausted before they had obtained even a recreational pilot’s licence.

The Australian has also obtained a 2019 report on the financial performance of BHI aviation courses, which raised concerns about the financial arrangement with Soar.





Analysis of data at a student level indicates that there have been mismatches between income received for some students and amounts paid to Soar for those same students,” said the report.



“In many instances, this included paying Soar for students that were not enrolled in the associated course cluster. In some cases BHI made payments to Soar in respect to students that had withdrawn from the course, or were invoiced (and paid) multiple times for the same students.



“No material refund or credit has been received from Soar in respect to these mismatches.”



The report went on to say those factors had constrained BHI from achieving the notional gross profit levels contemplated in the contract with Soar (87 per cent and 92 per cent) with actual gross profit of 2 per cent and -2 per cent noted in 2017 and 2018 respectively.

[Sunfish]

What a mess!

[YPJT]

Not a mess Sunfish. I would suggest a very well orchestrated, until now, fraud!

[Okihara]

There's a running joke that every RPC holder at Soar is made to have a navigation endorsement. I don't know how much is legend and how much is fact but there's probably a hint a truth behind it.

[Clare Prop]

Invoicing issues.... Isn't that what finished off ACFT a few years back?

[ramble on]

The schools that are set up to milk VET fees need to be torn down and the management gaoled.
Every where I turn I see things that are turning Australia from a proud 1st world country to a 3rd world **** hole.
I have even heard anecdotes of so called testing staff failing students "because they need a the money for a new xxxx - the second test fee will provide the money"!
Lets hope that we never meet, for your sake.....

Dont put up with this stuff and dont be a part of it.

[Clare Prop]

Indeed ramble on, so we need to tell our federal MPs, who have been influenced by people with vested interests, that is it NOT OK to have these loans let alone increase these loans to 150 grand next year and why. In the past the money has vanished quietly to goodness knows where before the liquidators moved in, but this time the Rich List seems to be rubbing the taxpayers noses in it.

[Lead Balloon]

There's money to be made in regulation, too.

The annual remuneration packages published in CASA's Annual Report 2018-19 include:

Shane Carmody: $668,640

Graham Crawford: $503, 785

Jonathan Aleck: $366,395

(See https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/default/files/annual-report-2018-2019.pdf Part 7 Appendix B Table B.5. Lots of other 'interesting' information about remuneration there.)

[YPJT]

Lead Balloon,
a bit of a difference there though. The people in your list are not allegedly raising dud invoices.

[Okihara]

Where are Soar students on PPRuNe? Why don't they provide some first hand comments and stories here?

[aroa]

"Those people" are not raising dud invoices...they dont have to. they are DUDS themselves.
And they are all part of a great fraud perpetrated on the uninterested taxpayer and dudded a vital industry.
Its a national scandal.

[WedgeAntilles]

I resisted the RPC+Nav and pushed on to ppl. Was a while ago now. Unnecessarily long navs and ‘repeats’ blew a hole in my funding though. I’m still not sure what the ‘hourly’ rate is, even now......

[Okihara]

I resisted the RPC+Nav and pushed on to ppl. Was a while ago now. Unnecessarily long navs and ‘repeats’ blew a hole in my funding though. I’m still not sure what the ‘hourly’ rate is, even now......

WedgeAntilles How did those "repeats" come about? Have you ever challenged your instructor when they requested that you redo a lesson?

Regarding long navs, I've often met Soar students refuelling at Warrnambool (:ugh:)

But the cherry on top was hearing one Soar kid trying to cancel his SARTIME on centre. When the controller asked him how far from MB he was, he replied: 50 miles :D

[WedgeAntilles]

WedgeAntilles How did those "repeats" come about? Have you ever challenged your instructor when they requested that you redo a lesson?

Regarding long navs, I've often met Soar students refuelling at Warrnambool (:ugh:)

But the cherry on top was hearing one Soar kid trying to cancel his SARTIME on centre. When the controller asked him how far from MB he was, he replied: 50 miles :D
At the time, I didn’t know any better and went with their so called ‘professional’ guidance. As time has gone on, I’ve become more empowered not to put up with poor instructing and overly long navigation exercises. It’s hard when you start out as you’re supposed to be guided properly through the maze of flight instruction. Instead you end up being taken advantage of.
Before you know it, your census date is passed, and the next tranche of funding has been accessed without the expected progress being attained. This is how $100k gets swallowed so easily.
knowing what I know now makes me quite angry how everything was run.

[lowballer]

Where are Soar students on PPRuNe? Why don't they provide some first hand comments and stories here?

HI Okihara,


We are right here, one of the students (or should I say ex students), we are just listening and watching. we have a lot of stuff going on right now.

Now to begin I am talking on behalf of myself and not the group. The following views are based on MY OPINION and thus my anonymity is to be respected as this is still an ongoing issue. (yes you can PM me and i will respond but ONLY if you are a current student/Ex Student)


First off I would like to clarify some of the things that has been said all over across most of the social media and including here, most people have got the conception that we are after the aviation industry and its too hard and we are the drop outs or something along those lines.

Well to respond to that, most of us are grownups. have full time or part time jobs and have steady income, some of us came out with master degrees, some have PhD's, amazing how we all human beings slander first then sympathize later... we are dedicated people that want to be in the aviation circle, we are doing everything we can to have a career change, it's a small tight nit family that challenges us, it enhances us, it challenged me. I want to give credit where credit is due...


Soar has taught me how to fly, some instructors were EXCELLENT and of course with every "community" there is always a few bad apples who practically will fail you for not having the optional clip on tie as a part of the uniform that's non compulsory in the eyes of the OPS manual, they did teach me how to fly but at what expense? I will tell you; I have a student loan that is close to $80k with an interest rate labelled as "index of inflation" at 1.8%-1.9% every new financial year on top...between $1440 - $1620 in fees on top of the loan you already have(depending who or which department you ask in the government), what do I have? practically a useless RPL and you know what, that licence doesn't even have CTA & CTR nor a flight review to activate it and be usable. what about the RA-AUS RPC then? well that's a whole different kettle of fish to boil, you guys wouldn't know what the hell is RA-AUS and what is it doing in a controlled aerodrome such as Moorabbin, well I will save you the troubles so you don't have to beat around the bush (casa EX69/18). so you might ask "HOW?" well its very simple. I got sucked in. I was one of those originals promised to fly the 172's and the Foxbat as the old mate who could sell ice to an Eskimo (those people know who I'm talking about, cant compromise anyone's identity), he was pitching the course at the time told me this would be temporary, so I believed as you would, they say ignorance is no excuse; well neither is deception.


But 80k and not even a licence I can use unless I pay out of my pocket to get a flight review and having to pay out of my pocket for CTA & CTR just to use the damn RPL is not right... I'm sure there is HEAP's of people who went to other flight schools and had an EASY pass. yes I said EASY pass. because we(the students that are in the group) developed a paranoia towards failure. we have to repeat whole flight again and again.



lets say one of the pre-solo Navs they have...Say NAV 8 - you know your route, you studied the weather, you know the risks, yet somehow you made an oopsie, when you were departing you remained on YMMB TWR freq and you forgot to change/monitor CTR freq until say you were maybe 2 CLEAROFFS (yes clearoffs, the S is Sartime lol) and roughly 30mins at your vixxen with a tas of 82kt , the instructors would let you fly all the way to your destination and then all the way back (120nm). you do absolutely brilliant, but then they mark you as failed and you have to repeat the whole flight, YES the whole flight. that's how I was taught, that's the going norm that they have developed. that's the corporate culture. you aren't to repeat C3.1 judging by the MOS PT 61, you are to repeat the whole flight, again, and again, and again until you are absolutely perfect. Let's be the devil's advocate for a second. you get good, you get perfect at repetition, but again AT WHAT COST?! I was NEVER stopped, NEVER intercepted and in fact I was encouraged to fly more by both BOX HILL AND SOAR, Yes they said repeating the whole flight is necessary despite that you just need to repeat only 1 component demonstrated on your next flight, it is necessary for you to burn a good 3 hours again just to prove competency in the example C3.1 - Operate radio equipment. (yup that's how they operate, that's how they milk you dry), next time you repeat...you get distracted and you dont make a 10nm inbound call, you make it at 8nm and you again have to repeat whole flight, the flight after that you forget to switch the tanks, forget carb heat, forget to have nav lights on, forget whatever. pick something small thats easily fixable but because you haven't performed it then and there...you F'd it.


(bonus points for anyone who can tell me a casa recommended part 141 non integrated syllabus number of navs vs SOAR's Business model) - 8 flights vs 11 flights inc final flight test


Not even going to go into full detail of the whole boxhill-soar marriage that's undivorceable, not going into the 141 non integrated useless RA-AUS hours that wouldn't be employable if fresh graduate with no extra spending involved (they deceived us and said hours are transferable), the whole flight records withholding, say you rage-quit and went elsewhere to study. ha good luck trying to get your flight records.


this is just the tip of the iceberg.

Note: We aren't going after the VSL system. VSL is great. Let's say FTA - they actually graduate pilots with jobs aligned. yet here at soar the closes thing to a job opportunity was the ******** And ********** (which turned out to be a hoax. something to fill the check boxes) so to summarize a course with graduation rate that's so low that you can pick a number on one hand. so we are going after the operator who stole almost 4 years of my life. the operator that basically tarnished my logbook forever. no one in Moorabbin (and I'm sure even in Bankstown) likes soar. Those that want to jump on board with defense of soar have the misconception of us; some kids who defaulted on the bank of mum and dad. yeah okay sure il agree, iv'e defaulted because i come from a place where there is no money and my life isn't about the money, its about the freedom of doing what you love rather than hating every single day of your life. Aviation to me isn't about some high paying job sitting in a cockpit flying at 32,000ft. No, to me its about discipline its about the view, the respect, the scenery that most kids wish to see. its about the freedom. being robbed off that dream makes me very upset.


So what happens now? We fight for right.

Whats our next move? Wait and see,


whats my current job? keep spreading awareness about this horrible operator. (remember, at the top i wrote IN MY OPINION)


Is this because we are sour and bitter?

Nope. Most of us actually somehow went to other flight training providers, paid out of our own pockets and actually passed with flying colors. some were praised as top performers.....but at what cost?

at the cost of being ripped off, going elsewhere and paying more? is that how aviation works? you get robbed twice and that's when you can see the blue sky up?

There are 2 types of instructors. the Vampires who dont teach you S*** which will suck your blood dry and the ones who are genuine disciplined people who truthfully deserve of that title. those that want to teach you that work at soar normally quit a few months after induction. meanwhile other operators that i flew with are career instructors that want to teach and want you to succeed.


If there are students reading this and are unsure how to join the group. You can PM me, if there are people who know how to help and want to join our cause. You can also PM me, if there are people who aren't sure which side of the fence they stand. as someone mentioned above. Our deputy PM of this country endorsed the school of broken dreams, just remember it could be your kid too that's soon to be suffocating from the forever loan that you cannot default on and the loan that prevents you leaving this country until paid out in full.


bonus points: say i do default on this loan, whos paying my bill? you? the tax payer? because this operator already has made the money...

=============================

Until you have a posting history you don't have access to private messaging and adding urls.

[evilducky]

Great post lowballer. You guys got dealt a **** hand. As much as people can say caveat emptor, both the education and aviation industries are full of sharks just waiting to bite.

I got stung early in my aviation career by a ‘job’ that required training to be paid for. Not nearly on the scale that you’ve been taken for a ride on, but in the same circumstances - imbalance in knowledge and bargaining position coupled with someone unconscionably making money. If it’s any consolation, you’ll never fall for it again. My eyes have been wide open ever since.

[Sunfish]

If this is true as alleged this is the most depressing post I have ever read about Australian Aviation.Evil bastards. Also, did the regulator not know or care? What about the RAA? Surely there must have been bar room talk - rumours, yet nobody blew the whistle or tried to put these students right.

Australian aviation from top to bottom, just sucks. Anyone in Aviation from the Qantas sky gods on down, should feel dirty today.

[Okihara]

Jaayysus, lowballer. What a horrible story yours is. Thanks a lot for sharing with such granularity. Like I said, I heard stories but I never imagined things were anywhere nearly as bad as you reported them. I'm just not sure why you're determined to stay anonymous. You clearly are one of many victims of Soar and beyond how sad and despondent this makes you feel, the two things you can do at the moment are: 1. preventing that others like you before join that school and 2. fight for justice and get your money back.

As for the obsession with perfection, this is such overrated nonsense. Look, back in the early days of my training I passed my first flight test with an examiner named Max Sereno. The bloke has a certain reputation for being tough at Moorabbin, one that I certainly didn't know back then. Ask around if you've never heard of him and watch for reactions. Anyway, back to the flight test. We weren't even done taxiing to the run-up bays that it became crystal clear to me that this was going to be no merry-go-round kind of little tour in the training area. His presence and behaviour was intimidating and just didn't allow me to get comfortable. Plus, it was winter and he set the cabin heat to the max which meant that I started roasting like a chook after the run-ups. And then there's that, my horror scenario. I gave him the sacrosanct takeoff and safety brief while taxiing to the holding point, amen, and then, at the holding point and line-up checks done, I suddenly realise that I actually haven't heard him say a word since we left the run-up bays. So I ask: "All good? Do you have any questions before I make my ready call?" His mouth did move but... no sound. Panic! Instantaneously switching into troubleshooting mode: "Do you read me? I can't hear you!", cables in, volume up, down. Murphy's law at its best, the mother of all teachings: You'll learn the fine print of the Garmin 430 in your flight test. That was it, the longest 15 seconds of my pilot life (actually it felt like minutes), the longer time passed, the more I started accepting the fate that I would probably be the first student to fail his flight test with a flashy flight time of 0.0, let alone the money that the whole circus would anyway cost. I just thought, at least this is one environmentally friendly way of failing, certainly no one can blame that. It turned out to be the squelch, obvious, hey!?. He had been fiddling with the cabin heat AND his squelch knob while I was testing the engine and not paying attention to him. Squelch back to an acceptable level, he looks at me and says: "Don't forget your ready call". And that was that. I made a mountain out of a molehill, and molehills would be many more to come in subsequent flights. The flight test went well, not overly perfect, not without mistakes but none that I wouldn't correct during the normal course of the flight. Debriefing that flight he told me that we're all expected to make mistakes and, equally, we're also expected to detect and rectify them. A pass and no drama beyond what you make of it. Certainly no need for a whole repeat. I'm not saying that SOPs and checklists are not important, but mistakes should be put into perspective and weighed against the big picture of your overall performance.

I have two more stories of flight tests where I made mistakes early into the flight and was sure that I was toast but maybe for another time. In both instances they were also a pass and those things I forgot are now engraved into my skull forever (no, carb heat is still not one of them!)

The biggest mistake that I repeatedly made was thinking that a flight flown to the perfection would be the only key to success. It turned out that developing a positive mindset with a good cockpit hygiene is just a 100% more bulletproof. I've been to 5 operators for various stages of my training. I've seen the good, endured the bad (luckily not for long), the spectrum in between, flown with young and old instructors, new and experienced ones, and then I've also had the chance to learn from one school that really, truly stands out. I know that they're picky about who they take on as students but if you have a good story and want to experience a much more thorough approach, then give Peter Bini Advanced Flight Training a ring, or pass by for a chat with their instructors. My only regret is that I got mislead by the "Advanced" part of the name and believed that they only provide training for multi-engine and IR. I can only say that the IR training that I got there was nothing short of stellar. They had a waiting list of a couple of months though. I guess that speaks for itself. Once the training starts, it's highly personal and fast paced though.

@Sunfish, So no, Australian aviation is not hopeless as such. There are good and (many) bad apples. I hear that another school named FAST Aviation operating at Lismore NSW has a very streamlined 4 week multi+IR training. There too is a waiting list of 2-3 months. The danger for prospective students is that they are fooled into choosing the seemingly cheaper and more obvious training path of the integrated CPL, or lower rates, early into their training when they don't have the knowledge yet to realise that they are in fact taking a huge financial risk/gamble by placing their eggs into a single operator all the way.

Blame the regulator for not doing their oversight job properly, I agree. I'm however still curious as to why students stick with it for so long.

Clinch your fists and fight my friend. $80k for a RPL in a Foxbat of just about any colour is fraud. Many, many times over. At that rate it'll cost you a million to get your CPL and probably another one to get your IR.

[TXU]

I too got sucked in.

What swayed me in the first place was the part time ‘organized and structured ‘ nature of the course, as it turned out it was anything but structure and organized. I knew full well that post any initial course I was going to be up for many thousands of dollars to even get a look in. So self funding the entire CPL and working full time wasn’t an option for me, mainly due to other life commitments .... pesky things like a family and house etc!

I’m not blaming anyone other than my self for the predicament I’m now in as many of the red flags which many people have called out for shonky training were very evident, very early on. I chose to continue mainly because I was actually progressing at the required pace ... until it came time for my PPL flight test which despite passing everything mysteriously took over 3 months to organize, by which time the CPL cluster date had passed and I was really stuck! Despite paying for the theory component, it was so poorly organized, with instructors who verbally said they didn’t want to be there, who had clearly done zero preparation on the material they were supposed to ‘teach’ that I self studied (and passed) all 7 exams.

There were many good instructors, Some of which have gone onto much bigger and shinier aircraft – deservedly so. There were also many very poor instructors . Most are probably good pilots who are blindly following orders in part because they were probably desperate for a foot in the door. I’ve witnessed instructors blatantly display incredibly poor professionalism, Some of which is downright dangerous.

There is absolutely zero organization, contradicting information on everything imaginable (simple things like a particular way to perform a certain procedure) to what the syllabus actually requires (changed several times in my time) A severe lack of professionalism and care for student development from many instructors. I’ve heard from several different previous employees that it was encouraged to drag students training and progress out – this is the result! Insane number of instructor turnover (from 0 hours to the end I had in excess of 25 different instructors. There is absolutely zero accountability for the instructors and level of training they are providing.

To the handful of good instructors who maintained their own standards in very difficult and trying conditions, usually for a short time ... I take my hat off to you and wish you every success!

To the many clearly unhappy, unmotivated instructors who are churning through the hours with zero care for your output, whilst waiting for the next best thing... you are as much to blame for Soars current predicament as the management. Perhaps the fact that you are still waiting on that next big thing your own doing. A student failing and the pass rates say as much about the instructors signing students off as it does about the organization it self.

For what it’s worth it’s been a massive set back! But my aviation adventure is far from over and I will not let this organization crush my dreams!

It's been a massive learning experience!

Onwards and upwards!

[Squawk7700]

But the cherry on top was hearing one Soar kid trying to cancel his SARTIME on centre. When the controller asked him how far from MB he was, he replied: 50 miles :D

I know I’m not the smartest guy on the ramp, but what am I missing here?

[Clare Prop]

Lowballer, that's terrible, I want to apologise on behalf of the flying training industry for what you have been through. Not all flying schools are like this. There were just a select few who saw the VET loans as a way of scamming the taxpayer. For 80 grand you should have 200 hours and a CPL without ever having gone near an RA Aus aeroplane.

There is no such thing as cheap flying.

Many predicted that the government dishing out loans like this would result in this sort of thing, but of course the people running them are good at lobbying for more and more. You and the taxpayer are the ones being scammed, the only difference with this one is that instead of suddenly closing the doors and the money vanishing to who knows where as so many others have, this guy is actually flaunting it, rubbing noses in it on the Young Rich List. Pride comes before a fall and if you get a refund he can't now say he doesn't have the money and just lock the door and disappear like so many others have.

I wish you all the best of luck. Robyn Ironside at The Australian is taking interest in this, so suggest you keep in touch with her. Most of us would be very glad to see these scams stopped as so many potentially great pilots' careers are ruined before they have even begun and it gives the industry a bad name.

As for the perfection thing, I recently renewed my Examiner Rating and we discussed this, there is no such thing a the perfect flight test. What matters are whether errors are safety or non safety critical and if/how the student recognises, prioritises and fixes them.

I remember when I came here from the other side of the world I already had a few hundred hours and had been instructing for some time. When I went to do my conversions I went to a certain school. They told me I had to repeat 3 hour navs because I had used ICAO radio procedures and readbacks instead of the abbreiviated versions Australia used at the time. Luckily I was experienced enough to know they were scamming me and also experienced enough to know that those unfortunate instructors really didn't know any different. They had been scammed too.

Good luck. Keep your powder dry.

[lowballer]

Once again thank you to everyone here who has repsonded to my comments about the situtation,
here i have some of the responses (again my views)


Great post lowballer. You guys got dealt a **** hand. As much as people can say caveat emptor, both the education and aviation industries are full of sharks just waiting to bite.

I got stung early in my aviation career by a ‘job’ that required training to be paid for. Not nearly on the scale that you’ve been taken for a ride on, but in the same circumstances - imbalance in knowledge and bargaining position coupled with someone unconscionably making money. If it’s any consolation, you’ll never fall for it again. My eyes have been wide open ever since.

Thank you for that, Funny thing is that Box hill marked me quite low on the "Writing" side of things, Cavet Emptor doesnt exist when non biased reviews and non threatening feedback get purged and all thats left is deception. We know that those sharks exist we don't dismiss them. not all dolphins are sharks and not all sharks are dolphins. Some of us were quite shocked to find the true colors of some individuals. to see them supporting behind the other side of the fence is both shocking and saddening. But with that comes the other surprise of the immense support that we have received from avenues that we never expected.


If this is true as alleged this is the most depressing post I have ever read about Australian Aviation.Evil bastards. Also, did the regulator not know or care? What about the RAA? Surely there must have been bar room talk - rumours, yet nobody blew the whistle or tried to put these students right.

Australian aviation from top to bottom, just sucks. Anyone in Aviation from the Qantas sky gods on down, should feel dirty today.

This is only the 5% of what i can tell you. IF there is a glimpse of hope from within this corruption is that this glimpse requires awareness. admittingly their vacuum is full and the carpet still dirty, cant hide anymore dead skelletons that closet when its full. People talk so spreading awareness about this is our goal.

Okiharats my pleasure to be here, someone needs to clear up the mis-conceptions, the only reason right now is that there is politics and media involvement. speculate all you want but there is a lot of info i know that i shouldn't.
As for the 2 moves, 1 - you can take the horse to the creek but you cant make it drink (if googling soar and seeing negative publicity doesnt work, he is paying good dollars to the internet cleaners), 2 - already onto it, The Australian (Robyn Ironside) is doing an excellent job for us.

Mate, that sounds quite exhausting experience but one that you wont forget. The whole time here reading your story I remember asking on one of my first ever flights the instructor of "how do we get billed? is it VDO or Airswitch". his reply, no joke "Don't worry about it". I just wanted to ask a fancy question because to be honest quite frankly i didn't know the difference between the two. to this day i still dont know whats the hourly rate for a dual/solo flight in soar's foxbat is. 0.0 you must have had an airswitch at the holding point lol, that's okay at least you wouldn't need to repeat it, don't need to summon captain hindsight here. The going norm there is to have 2 flight tests. 1 to fail and 1 to pass...Riddle me this? how is that okay?....
I have two more stories of flight tests where I made mistakes early into the flight and was sure that I was toast but maybe for another time. In both instances they were also a pass and those things I forgot are now engraved into my skull forever (no, carb heat is still not one of them!)


There are good and (many) bad apples. I hear that another school named FAST Aviation operating at Lismore NSW has a very streamlined 4 week multi+IR training. There too is a waiting list of 2-3 months.
That i couldn't agree more. Positive mindset is the key in a normal flight school. not here, here you must be perfect. I've heard stories that you are perfect and yet still get marked to fail and repeat because of some bogus reasons, Reality is there is no proper debrief. I was mostly sent home and would never see the flight lesson entries till i actually requested them. one day i raged to see what was said about me and what was actually entered, you know where do i fault? surprise surprise, half of the junior instructors dont even write notes on you let alone mark the flights assessments, And yes i know Lionel T From PB, Good bloke he is. A lot of students from soar go to him, not to mention you said about the other operator FAST Aviation. Another quality school from other students i heard. The thing is pretty much EVERY operator in Moorabbin is better (in my opinion). Every operator at least somewhat cares for their students..students are the customers. customers bring money. simple. deceiving and then entrapping the students is a bad business model and this will stop.


Blame the regulator for not doing their oversight job properly, I agree. I'm however still curious as to why students stick with it for so long.
Ah yes all aboard the BHFS v2.0...
(to those watching at home and want spoilers. copy paste these for you benefit:
aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=d019c4ba-e7fa-4671-89cd-2766fbcec47f&subId=563996
parlview.aph.gov.au/mediaPlayer.php?videoID=326746 WATCH 20:52:32 TILL 21:18:42)
Why do we stick? its because we cant go anywhere else. the words past census predatory entrapment is perfect way to summarize this

Clinch your fists and fight my friend. $80k for a RPL in a Foxbat of just about any colour is fraud. Many, many times over. At that rate it'll cost you a million to get your CPL and probably another one to get your IR.
The color is yellow, Think of a fruit thats yellow, thats the bitter fruity flavor i have. worse than buying a holden craptiva.

​​​​​​​I too got sucked in.
You and I mate, Wondering if you are in our group or not...

What swayed me in the first place was the part time ‘organized and structured ‘ nature of the course, as it turned out it was anything but structure and organized. I knew full well that post any initial course I was going to be up for many thousands of dollars to even get a look in. So self funding the entire CPL and working full time wasn’t an option for me, mainly due to other life commitments .... pesky things like a family and house etc!
Part time - Yes, Bonus round = every other provider was losing their funding because of the Vet fee help abolishment, every provider needed to reapply to Vet student loan, Box Hill was one of the first for the loan to be approved and thus reason behind why i chose BHI, If captain hindsight was around he would have told me to just wait a little bit longer you might learn something better. Who knew that my mates in other flight schools already got what i wanted forever, yet the feeling of failiure just grows and grows. looking back the whole self-funding thing is actually affordable if you are good with your money. Its the part time commitement yet treated like a full time. 0 Flexibility, 0 Negotiation, Max money.

I’m not blaming anyone other than my self for the predicament I’m now in as many of the red flags which many people have called out for shonky training were very evident, very early on. I chose to continue mainly because I was actually progressing at the required pace ... until it came time for my PPL flight test which despite passing everything mysteriously took over 3 months to organize, by which time the CPL cluster date had passed and I was really stuck! Despite paying for the theory component, it was so poorly organized, with instructors who verbally said they didn’t want to be there, who had clearly done zero preparation on the material they were supposed to ‘teach’ that I self studied (and passed) all 7 exams.
You dont have to blame anyone, Read your paperwork that you signed (oh wait...im still waiting for my paperwork to be given to me) You know what SOAR stands for? (DEFFINETLY of course in my opinion) Shifty/Shonky/Shady/****ty/Shafted Operators and Robbers. pick one that makes you feel better, Choosing to continue is what i did as well because i had no plan B, I wasnt trained enough to have to rely on a diversion elswhere at the time i didnt even know how to fly S&L, The gouging flight test scheduling is either full of excuses of reluctancy or just straight up loath. The NZ instructors mostly overclocked peoples hours, they are the ones in my time who dispised being there, failing you for incorrect checklist procedure. "mate i havent even started the engine and this is my first pre-solo wtf!", fun fact: theft of intelectual property too. Just ask operators who run the material thats not BT for their feedback about SOAR&BHI using without permission

There were many good instructors, Some of which have gone onto much bigger and shinier aircraft – deservedly so. There were also many very poor instructors . Most are probably good pilots who are blindly following orders in part because they were probably desperate for a foot in the door. I’ve witnessed instructors blatantly display incredibly poor professionalism, Some of which is downright dangerous.
Rightfully so! I think ive got a clue of who you are talking about (good on him!), Yep. some of the instructors ive met lived on their credit cards for months thanks to the summer-winter contractual changes. (yup ive said enough i wont elaborate on that no more but let your imagination run wild with being paid upon flying). those instructors are kids who are there for the flight hours, Dont mind me im still a kid under 30 but my moral compass is set correctly. my mum did teach me not to stick a fork in a powerpoint, she also taught me that for every action there is an equal and an opposite reaction, you pitch up you stall you wingdrop you spin in an aircraft thats not allowed for that

There is absolutely zero organization, contradicting information on everything imaginable (simple things like a particular way to perform a certain procedure) to what the syllabus actually requires (changed several times in my time) A severe lack of professionalism and care for student development from many instructors. I’ve heard from several different previous employees that it was encouraged to drag students training and progress out – this is the result! Insane number of instructor turnover (from 0 hours to the end I had in excess of 25 different instructors. There is absolutely zero accountability for the instructors and level of training they are providing.
Remember the Stall's SOP? ah good times i remember i burried so many hours on something that casa never asked for nor was ever required...

To the handful of good instructors who maintained their own standards in very difficult and trying conditions, usually for a short time ... I take my hat off to you and wish you every success!
Those instructors are now actually succeeding and are happy. goes to show what kind of a revolving door soar is

To the many clearly unhappy, unmotivated instructors who are churning through the hours with zero care for your output, whilst waiting for the next best thing... you are as much to blame for Soars current predicament as the management. Perhaps the fact that you are still waiting on that next big thing your own doing. A student failing and the pass rates say as much about the instructors signing students off as it does about the organization it self.
Dont worry, their RA-AUS hours used for upgrade clearly made a dent in their pockets. Shame that some good instructors got deceived too by that, a very sharp double edged sword, on the other hand catching an instructor you despise sitting on page 27 of AFAP Jobs sleeping in the instructors room on the keyboard drooling kinda proves a point in the culture that they have built.

For what it’s worth it’s been a massive set back! But my aviation adventure is far from over and I will not let this organization crush my dreams!
Props to you man for striving for the better! for me its a massive set back and im itching to get back into the books to truly study for it and actually get somewhere with proper mentorship as so far it seems that even the ones who graduated are still unemployed (not counting the ones who are instructors snapped inhouse.)

It's been a massive learning experience!

Onwards and upwards!
Tell me about it, Keep the blue sky up they say? Mate wtf is Sky...wtf is up? kinda like EA games with microtransactions, pay to play except that sorry you cant pay you cant play at all and everything you worked so hard for is void.
​​​​​​​
Lowballer, that's terrible, I want to apologise on behalf of the flying training industry for what you have been through. Not all flying schools are like this. There were just a select few who saw the VET loans as a way of scamming the taxpayer. For 80 grand you should have 200 hours and a CPL without ever having gone near an RA Aus aeroplane.
Thats okay, Not really looking for sympathy on this forum, We already got thick skin in the group post threats on socials and other forms of bullying, yes this one takes the cake im not surprised anymore when people i know, people i went to class, people who had high hopes and dreams tell me that they just want it to end they dont want to do it anymore, they would rather be cleaning public toilets for pennies on the dollar rather than continue to endure this nonsense in the form of corporate greed and corruption.
its not even the VSL operators, its THE VSL operator. "Australia's Largest Flight School" who hides behind the skirt of BHI, 80k down and only post code numbers in my logbook...with a select few maybe 3-4 entries of GA. yup money well spent by deception. least i got something i know of a person who has downed 76k and not even RPC...

There is no such thing as cheap flying.
I know, at least there is a price-list which gives you the ability to choose where to fly. that option is golden. you dont realize what kind of reget it is when it doesnt exist for you.

Many predicted that the government dishing out loans like this would result in this sort of thing, but of course the people running them are good at lobbying for more and more. You and the taxpayer are the ones being scammed, the only difference with this one is that instead of suddenly closing the doors and the money vanishing to who knows where as so many others have, this guy is actually flaunting it, rubbing noses in it on the Young Rich List. Pride comes before a fall and if you get a refund he can't now say he doesn't have the money and just lock the door and disappear like so many others have.
He wont close easily, he wont disappear either, we mitigated that possibility. Flaunt it all he wants. the timing of The Australian Articles was very careful. Violah, it worked his article by AFR got pulled. so much for money cant buy good reputation...

I wish you all the best of luck. Robyn Ironside at The Australian is taking interest in this, so suggest you keep in touch with her. Most of us would be very glad to see these scams stopped as so many potentially great pilots' careers are ruined before they have even begun and it gives the industry a bad name.
We know alot more than Robyn does, She is working with us carefully however we must know how to defend for ourselfs too so cant really comment on what happens next but stay tuned ofcourse. As mentour pilot from youtube said it himself too, Aptitude - you can still become a fantastic pilot. Funding is the reason why it limits quality best pilots to just rich bank of mum and dad pilots.

As for the perfection thing, I recently renewed my Examiner Rating and we discussed this, there is no such thing a the perfect flight test. What matters are whether errors are safety or non safety critical and if/how the student recognises, prioritises and fixes them.
Thats exactly why my flight examiner was surprised with my ability. the whole "are you sure this is your first time being assessed?". once again at what cost? 0% failure recorded against my name in BHI, yet there is failiure and i know some catastrphic failiure that has been sweapt under the rug. not particularly with me but with most individuals failing flights for trivial things that actually get rectified.

I remember when I came here from the other side of the world I already had a few hundred hours and had been instructing for some time. When I went to do my conversions I went to a certain school. They told me I had to repeat 3 hour navs because I had used ICAO radio procedures and readbacks instead of the abbreiviated versions Australia used at the time. Luckily I was experienced enough to know they were scamming me and also experienced enough to know that those unfortunate instructors really didn't know any different. They had been scammed too.

Good luck. Keep your powder dry.
​​​​​​​This is how the industry is broken, Independant reviews are hidden and only propoganda exists.


I think thats all i can really say i know its a long post but we are here for any students who are struggling and are going through barely. once again if you wish to contact myself let me know.

[The name is Porter]

Well, you've read a couple of accounts, there are many more. How the hell were they to know? I didn't when I started, I came from a family of zero pilots, I was the first. I was lucky, I went to a school that had a great rep. There were also very few turds in the industry like this turd.

It will be interesting to see if the full story comes out. There are agencies involved that will be very embarrassed, will they try and hide this? If they do it may get a little sticky, because there are enough people who know the full story that will probably spill the beans.

Narcissist
Psychopath
Arrogant

You all go down in the end.

[gerry111]

I came from a family of zero pilots

Are you the only one left?

[Okihara]

To Soar's current/former students: Can anyone shed light into Soar's surprisingly high Google review ratings? I mean, going by what I read here, I would have expected anywhere between 1 and 2 stars but going through a few that gave 5 stars has me wondering who these people really are. Instructors themselves keeping busy on IMC days? Some reviews really depict a grim picture consistent with your stories above. I'm sorry, this one is too good not to share with you all:

Here's one from "a week ago" (highlighting mine):
I chose Soar Aviation in 2017 to begin my aviation journey, something i wanted to do all my life but never had the opportunity to do so. Today, less than 2 years later, i am a Commercial Pilot. I hold a Multi Engine Class Rating (gifted as a scholarship by Soar) and also obtained my Flight Instructor Rating. I am also now about to start teaching as a Flight Instructor at Soar Aviation. I am greatful to the wonderful staff, professionalism of all the Flight Instructors and Soar Aviation team who have all me to progress in 24 months from zero to a career in Aviation. The aircraft are mostly brand new, well maintained, and if you study hard and apply yourself, the Soar syllabus is designed to catapult you to amazing opportunities in a very short period when compared to other flight schools. Thankyou to the team at Soar Aviation for a wonderful gift, a dream career in Aviation.

... seriously!?

And here's one by someone who's been brainwashed:

I have completed my Navigations endorsement and soon to commence my CPL in their full time class. I have to say all the hiccups that I have ever had is at Boxhill but never had an issue with flying so far. It’s such a shame that we have to travel to Boxhill for theory when soar has theory classes space at their office. I am not sure why they don’t do theory here there are occasional cancellations due to wx or unscheduled maintenance but I am a realist that this is aviation and if I couldn’t understand weather or aircraft being machines so they sometimes break then I would have chosen another career. The biggest challenge in this course is RPL section and if you have regular flights and don’t take big breaks then you should comfortably achieve solo within 20 hours Their facility is probably the best around in Melbourne as I originally started flying at bacchus marsh. Never had a major issue but clearly if I do have in the future then I will edit this review

:ugh:

After looking around for a flying school for some time. I kept coming back to soar aviation to do my cpl as they offer part time study options and flying when I can (weekends) as I work full time. I am a current student so I thought I would do a quick review. From the moment I walked in the front door I have felt welcomed from staff and students. The instructors are fantastic and really want to help you along your journey to becoming a commercial pilot. The instructors are there to help you progress and they can and will not pass you if YOU are not up to standard. It's not kindergarten they are training us to become commercial pilots! They will do anything they can to help you! Yes you have the odd day you can't fly due to weather but honestly you don't really want to be up in the air when conditions are not favourable as you won't learn anything! The aircraft are modern, well maintained and they have plenty of them.

:ugh:

I know I’m not the smartest guy on the ramp, but what am I missing here?
Amending rather than cancelling SARTIME 50 miles out is probably what you'd expect a school to teach, methinks. I also think that the kid just showed very publicly that he had no understanding at all of what SARTIME is for, again not particularly commending for a school sending someone on a solo nav.

[mcoates]

This review is probably more accurate and not written by a family member.

https://www.yelp.com.au/biz/soar-aviation-melbourne

[Climb150]

For those of us that don't have yelp can somone cut and paste the review please?

[Ixixly]

For those of us that don't have yelp can somone cut and paste the review please?

worst school ever puts a bad name to everybody in aviation, Students are targets to schools like these. They rip off students, management are rude and couldn't care at all about the student. They dodge up hours.
instructors are there to build their own hours and milk the students money,
if you want to learn t fly go somewhere that doesn't have yellow planes and are desperate to get your money,
for a Cpl licence at soar cost nearly $90k plus paying out of pocket aswell if you go to another school its only $50k

1 star if you didn't already guess.

In regards to other reviews on Google, quite a few are people who either haven't studied there or haven't even started studying there or are clearly in their employment and they still only manage 2.8 Stars at Bankstown and 3.9 in Melbourne.

[Clare Prop]

More reviews such as this one
I left on ethical grounds. My moral compass pointed to the door. Watching these poor students get baited in only to get robbed. I could not look at students out of shame. Pay was OK but I don't want to be known as being involved in robbing students who don't know better. available here https://www.glassdoor.com.au/Reviews/Soar-Aviation-Reviews-E2602783.htm

[The name is Porter]

Haha, it looks at this stage I will be the one and only!

[Stikman]

To Soar's current/former students: Can anyone shed light into Soar's surprisingly high Google review ratings? I mean, going by what I read here, I would have expected anywhere between 1 and 2 stars but going through a few that gave 5 stars has me wondering who these people really are. Instructors themselves keeping busy on IMC days? Some reviews really depict a grim picture consistent with your stories above. I'm sorry, this one is too good not to share with you all:

Here's one from "a week ago" (highlighting mine):


... seriously!?

And here's one by someone who's been brainwashed:



:ugh:



:ugh:


Amending rather than cancelling SARTIME 50 miles out is probably what you'd expect a school to teach, methinks. I also think that the kid just showed very publicly that he had no understanding at all of what SARTIME is for, again not particularly commending for a school sending someone on a solo nav.

It would not surprise me in the slightest to find that Neel and/or his office staff were the ones writing the reviews....not one of the former students I've spoken with would write such tripe about the company.

[junior.VH-LFA]

I hope SOAR gets utterly taken apart in court.

Best of luck.

[Clare Prop]

Have any unhappy students complained to Consumer Affairs (Vic) or Fair Trading (NSW)? Then you have a complaint at state as well as federal level.

https://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/products-and-services/business-practices/advertising-and-promotions/misleading-or-deceptive-conduct

[cattletruck]

Some of these new companies are redefining the term "starting at the bottom".

I recall many moons ago when RMIT created the "Aviation Degree" and met a bunch of them at Benalla flying gliders. This was around the time when HECS fees were introduced and university chancellors were finding more inventive and lucrative ways of funding themselves. The small market of educating foreign students turned into a huge market of milking them. It was inevitable that as the big players developed this market then new players would emerge to pick up the crumbs, so it's unsurprising we now have these kinds of exploitative education institutions delivering some of the most incredibly stupid and useless degrees.

Unfortunately I never had rich parents to pay for my training, and I was not alone. Financial constraints were the primary reason for development delays and that reality was normally accepted in the aviation industry unless you went military, but even there exists a story of a young adult collecting supermarket shopping trolleys for funding his initial flight training and ended up flying F-18s. It was normal for an ab-initio to take over a year to get the basic flying ticket due to a money deficit rather than skill.

I started off on Warriors and Cessnas - these were the bottom of the pile for most of us, occasionally we'd have a crack at something more interesting through club contacts which was novel. Back then we all knew our planes, our engines, our steam gauges, and our aviation history, we also knew what crap we didn't want to be seen flying in.

Unfortunately the victims of SOAR are your typical victims of commercial exploitation that can occur in any industry - health, finance, property, retirement, etc, etc.

The golden rule is to always do your homework.

[Sunfish]

How do you do homework as an ab initio potential student? No contacts in the industry as well as a general culture of fear?

Take for example, the ****e sounding organisations that advertise right now on prunes masthead.

[WedgeAntilles]

It would not surprise me in the slightest to find that Neel and/or his office staff were the ones writing the reviews....not one of the former students I've spoken with would write such tripe about the company.

That first review here is written by a fierce advocate for that school. I don’t understand how a scholarship would come about though for a multi rating???

Nothing is given for $0 at that school, so I’d say in my opinion, an excess is taken from all the other students to anoint one or two, who will then go on to write the good reviews.

It’s few and far between for those ‘success’ stories, but promoted at the expense of the truth.

[notam1]

I'm one of the few that have managed to graduate with a CPL from soar this year.
Most of the complaints you read are true, I was fortunate enough to have one instructor with a few years of real world multi-turbine experience under their belt for my final 6 months who didn't let me make a single mistake.
It's disheartening to hear the industry reaction to Soar graduates. I love aviation and read everything I can about it, and am currently working full time to save up for MEIFR, but am not looking forward to doors shutting in my face when the inevitable question of 'so where did you train' comes up from potential employers.

[cattletruck]

How do you do homework as an ab initio potential student?

Well, that is a life lesson. I learnt by myself when quite young that good things tend to sell themselves and utter garbage often has the biggest marketing push behind it. If more ab-initio folk weren't so precious about themselves then this company would have gone out of business a long, long time ago and quality institutions, like the aforementioned Peter Bini Advanced Flying Training, would have gone from strength to strength.

[Squawk7700]

Well, that is a life lesson. I learnt by myself when quite young that good things tend to sell themselves and utter garbage often has the biggest marketing push behind it. If more ab-initio folk weren't so precious about themselves then this company would have gone out of business a long, long time ago and quality institutions, like the aforementioned Peter Bini Advanced Flying Training, would have gone from strength to strength.

If Bini’s has registered as an RTO, along with Tristar and all the other little schools, they too would have a piece of this sizeable pie. Instead they watched him become a multi millionaire.

[cattletruck]

watched him become a multi millionaire

And just another multi millionaire who can no longer sustain his lifestyle once the welfare runs out. Bini (and others who didn't sell their soul) have been around for decades and from my recent encounters with them will be around for many more.

[Okihara]

For those who know the people at Bini, I think you'll find that they see themselves as the other end of the curve, that is, highly differentiated, providing a personalised training, and focusing on quality and standards, and certainly not on volume. They seem to have no ambition to become a larger school which I truly respect. At the other end you have Soar (and metoos), big on marketing with shiny instagram accounts and websites, high volumes but obviously poor on quality and standards. I don't want to be too broad brush here, but all the other MB operators I had dealings with were some kind of trade off between the two, or stuck in the middle.

With regard to ab initio kids doing their homework, the least you would expect someone to do is hit up "Flying schools Melbourne/Sydney/..." or some kind of similar keywords on Google. Here's perhaps where experienced pilots/recent graduates/current students with a view to improve/give back to training could do something. I don't think that it would take much more than a nicely designed web page with no affiliation (and certainly not to flight training operators) that provides a clear picture of the current flying training environment in Australia. This would include the structure of training, advantages/drawbacks of the integrated vs. nonintegrated curricula, common pitfalls, words on the type of aircraft, things to consider once training started (school organisation, sticking to schedules, ...), etc. In addition to providing an utterly clear and impartial message (i.e. no bashing of RA aircraft, just an objective statement what things are), this web page could also have an "endorsement" where real pilots just add their name to a statement such as "My name is XXX, and this is what I would like to have known when I started my training" and those who want could volunteer some of their time to answer questions. There would also be a chapter on how to deal on a personal level with difficult instructors. I found it common to find students feeling "stuck" with an instructor they dislike for fear of speaking up when they forget that they really are the client and, as such, should feel free (if not entitled) to request to train with someone else.

The page could be maintained by donations in an effort to depart from a money making standard unfortunately pervasive nowadays. It would be a free resource with no strings attached. I don't think it would take much beyond some of you willing to spend a bit of time reviewing the content. Any ab initio would certainly find it worth $10 of their budget and pitch in at one point or the other.

One free resource that I found particularly refreshing and useful while doing my IR was this one: https://weflyplanes.com.au/

I don't think that flight training needs to be such a painful experience in Australia. That luck plays such an overinflated part in something that is so expensive really doesn't make sense to me.

[Squawk7700]

For those who know the people at Bini, I think you'll find that they see themselves as the other end of the curve, that is, highly differentiated, providing a personalised training, and focusing on quality and standards, and certainly not on volume. At the other end you have Soar, big on marketing and volume, obviously poor on quality and standards. I don't want to be too broad brush here, but all the other MB operators I had dealings with were some kind of trade off between the two, or stuck in the middle.

With regard to ab initio kids doing their homework, the least you would expect someone to do is hit up "Flying schools Melbourne" or some kind of similar keywords on Google. Here's perhaps where experienced pilots/recent graduates/current students with a view to improve training could do something. I don't think that it would take much more than a nicely designed web page with no affiliation (and certainly not to flight training operators) that provides a clear picture of the current flying training environment in Australia. In addition to providing an utterly clear message, this web page could have an "endorsement" where real pilots just add their name to a statement such as "My name is XXX, and I endorse the advice to prospective new pilots".

The page could be maintained by donations. I don't think it would take much and any ab initio would certainly find it worth $10 of their budget.

... and it would be filled with glowing reviews from their management and instructors, just like on here where instructors get on and harp on about their schools. Facebook would probably work better as it is somewhat less anonymous, however students would be unlikely to get on and slag off their schools. It sounds like a legal can of worms.

[Hamley]

not looking forward to doors shutting in my face when the inevitable question of 'so where did you train' comes up from potential employers.

Don’t worry too much. I’ve never seen any serious consideration being weighed on a fresh CPL about where they did their training. If you have a CPL and the right personality and hours that suit the operator they don’t really care where you trained.

Although given the content of this thread I wouldn’t advertise where you trained. Some people put where they did their CPL on their resume. This mostly never gets looked at and if you don’t include it nobody will notice.

[Okihara]

Actually, if anyone reading this is seriously considering giving me a hand with my idea above, let get organised and PM me.

[Clare Prop]

Caveat emptor.

If there are false representations about the product/services that is a matter for the State consumer affairs/fair trading department. Also at State level, the institutes that provide these qualifications.

If taxpayers money is being used as a lure then I would suggest there could be a level of corruption that goes pretty high at the federal level.

Would a bank lend a flying student the money for this? Bearing in mind there is no aptitude testing and a pilots career can be destroyed in an instant with a medical event?
If not then neither should we, the taxpayers.

Of course the schools will tell prospects what they want to hear...the government will pay for you to be a pilot and then you will get a job in a shiny jet. We all know it's bull**** but you can't expect the students to know.

Not all of us school owners want to be multi millionaires. Personally I get satisfaction from knowing when I hop on QF9 one of my old students will be flying me to London. What we watch is these schools come and go leaving a trail of destruction for students, instructors and suppliers, then another one comes along (often the same characters reappear) and the whole cycle begins again. The common denominator? Government loans.

[havick]

Caveat emptor.

If there are false representations about the product/services that is a matter for the State consumer affairs/fair trading department. Also at State level, the institutes that provide these qualifications.

If taxpayers money is being used as a lure then I would suggest there could be a level of corruption that goes pretty high at the federal level.

Would a bank lend a flying student the money for this? Bearing in mind there is no aptitude testing and a pilots career can be destroyed in an instant with a medical event?
If not then neither should we, the taxpayers.

Of course the schools will tell prospects what they want to hear...the government will pay for you to be a pilot and then you will get a job in a shiny jet. We all know it's bull**** but you can't expect the students to know.

Not all of us school owners want to be multi millionaires. Personally I get satisfaction from knowing when I hop on QF9 one of my old students will be flying me to London. What we watch is these schools come and go leaving a trail of destruction for students, instructors and suppliers, then another one comes along (often the same characters reappear) and the whole cycle begins again. The common denominator? Government loans.

Southern Air Services/GFS did a decent job until it was sold off to a large conglomerate. I went through there paying my own way for a PPL back in the late 90’s, while t they were running their Swinburne and Qantas courses along side their private customer side of the house.

I didn’t really see any gouging from them even even though their prices were on the higher side around the airport. But you were getting newish 172’s and the maintenance was decent at the time. So it can be done that a school does VET fee/HECS and holds up their end of the bargain.

The only thing I had to question and get removed from my account at the time was the seemingly random admin fees that kept propping up.

[The name is Porter]

If Bini’s has registered as an RTO, along with Tristar and all the other little schools, they too would have a piece of this sizeable pie. Instead they watched him become a multi millionaire.

Registering as an RTO has NOTHING to do with FEE-HELP. There are multiple schools with RTO status.

[swells]

Registering as an RTO has NOTHING to do with FEE-HELP. There are multiple schools with RTO status.

Correct, and SOAR https://training.gov.au/Organisation/Details/22488 wasn't using their own RTO, they were using Box Hill approval

While I dont want to comment on another flying school operator directly, I feel part of the issue with aviation traning is that there are too many regulators who dont talk to each other ... and aren't really competent in each others business

I.e., ASQA regulates Box Hill through the RTO (and would assess the legitimacy of the third party arrangement), Department of Education and Training (DET) manages the VET Student Loans ... potentially only dealing with Box Hill. CASA would talk to Soar (nothing to do with Box Hill) and I assume RAAus would be in the mix in some way shape or form ...

But no one regulator has the whole picture

Obviously I have a vested interest so I am a fan of VET Student Loans, it has expanded our business, I've put on more staff, more aircraft ... but I drive a Commodore and I still have a mortgage.

$75K certainly isn't a stupid amount to charge for a CPL if using GA ("modern") aircraft, proper staffing, proper maintennace, proper systems ... following the rules etc etc

But yes I think there could be greater transparancy, more input by the government and a process to make it easier for students to compare flying schools - ASQA is slowing going this way, but I'll believe it when i see it

Shannon

[runway16]

The VCAT hearing was yesterday, Wednesday 20/11. Several students v SOAR and Box Hill Institute.

Anyone at the hearing or can report on the outcome.

[Sunfish]

Swells: I.e., ASQA regulates Box Hill through the RTO (and would assess the legitimacy of the third party arrangement), Department of Education and Training (DET) manages the VET Student Loans ... potentially only dealing with Box Hill. CASA would talk to Soar (nothing to do with Box Hill) and I assume RAAus would be in the mix in some way shape or form ...

But no one regulator has the whole picture

That’s a feature, not a bug.

[swells]

Swells:

That’s a feature, not a bug.

true, but one honest intensions flying school wants to start up a remote base with the right intentions ..., and all hell breaks loose

[roundsounds]

$75K certainly isn't a stupid amount to charge for a CPL if using GA ("modern") aircraft, proper staffing, proper maintennace, proper systems ... following the rules etc etc

Surely the administrative costs of running a flying school have reduced since the introduction of Parts 61/141/142? That’s certainly what CASA told the government would happen!

[Simon3]

Today (10th December) a decision was handed down in the South Australian Administrative Appeals Tribunal (AAT). Case #2016/2372 Crisp vs Secretary of yhe Department of Education and Bruce Hartwig Flying School. Simply put, The student, James Crisp, was awarded a refund of his VET fees paid. The reasons are spelt out in the decision of AAT deputy president Britten-Jones. I don’t wish to be disrespectful to the tribunal by giving a short version of the decision, so it needs to be read as a whole. In a nutshell however, the decision appears to be formed around the evidence that the school did not meet its obligations to deliver the course which was offered nor in an appropriate and timely manner. Its not quite that simple; look up the matter on the AAT website. The AAT appear to be running 6 to 8 weeks behind in publishing its decisions. I’m sure your legal representatives will be given instant access if they ask.

[YPJT]

Surely the administrative costs of running a flying school have reduced since the introduction of Parts 61/141/142 (tel:61/141/142)? That’s certainly what CASA told the government would happen!
and Skidmark when questioned on the high cost and regulatory burden to GA said all a pvt pilot needs is a medical and flight review

[Ixixly]

Anyone else heard more news about what's happening with this mob? Seems like a good time to bring it up after the incident :P

[Ixixly]

Posted elsewhere but figured this was the more appropriate place for it conversation on this new development to be discussed!
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1241x1441/a0b86400_46f2_4869_a64f_bbb6f02bd90f_3a8eabaca3d240e90f9a59a 68381dd48e05e7760_8563e744ef503a3fe0674a336808a8fe9a2fb0c7.j peg

[havick]

They should be refunded everything seeing as they can’t supply the course/training they originally advertised.

[kaz3g]

Today (10th December) a decision was handed down in the South Australian Administrative Appeals Tribunal (AAT). Case #2016/2372 Crisp vs Secretary of yhe Department of Education and Bruce Hartwig Flying School. Simply put, The student, James Crisp, was awarded a refund of his VET fees paid. The reasons are spelt out in the decision of AAT deputy president Britten-Jones. I don’t wish to be disrespectful to the tribunal by giving a short version of the decision, so it needs to be read as a whole. In a nutshell however, the decision appears to be formed around the evidence that the school did not meet its obligations to deliver the course which was offered nor in an appropriate and timely manner. Its not quite that simple; look up the matter on the AAT website. The AAT appear to be running 6 to 8 weeks behind in publishing its decisions. I’m sure your legal representatives will be given instant access if they ask.




the decision is actually 2016/2272 and you can access it herehttp://classic.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sign.cgi/au/cases/cth/AATA/2019/5295

[kaz3g]

The VCAT hearing was yesterday, Wednesday 20/11. Several students v SOAR and Box Hill Institute.

Anyone at the hearing or can report on the outcome.

anyone have a link to VCAT decision or know the case number please?

kaz

[Entourage]

I agree :)))

[Squawk7700]

Oh dear, this is not good...

https://www.raa.asn.au/storage/safety-notice-bristell-lsa-20-feb-2020-00000002.pdf

If the manufacturer can’t prove that the aircraft comply with the ASTM requirements, they will be grounded and unable to be used for hire or reward. In theory they can be registered under LSA experimental but you’d have to think that CASA would not allow this if they believe that the aircraft type is unsafe.

I hope nobody has bought any of those used ones as that may raise a few concerns.

[Sunfish]

Definitely not good. Some perhaps would say criminal.

[djpil]

What is criminal is CASA taking so long to get to the stage where they are now concerned.We are concerned that contrary to the formal declarations made by the manufacturer, the aircraft may not have been adequately tested for compliance with the ASTM standard for spin recovery.

Some flight schools had stopped doing stalls in them quite some time ago. I wonder how people managed to pass a licence test in one after telling the examiner that they were forbidden to stall it. That sounds criminal to me too.

[Clare Prop]

Formal declarations? Is that all they need?

How about having the same level of safety for all aircraft used for training instead of giving exemptions on something as arbitrary as weight?

[Squawk7700]

Formal declarations? Is that all they need?

How about having the same level of safety for all aircraft used for training instead of giving exemptions on something as arbitrary as weight?

This was the purpose of LSA, to “self certify” and not have to pay millions for CASA to certify it, flight test it etc and therefore produce a cheaper aircraft to allow GA flying schools to buy them and to be able to level the playing field and allow them to compete with RA-Aus flying schools.

To an extent, it has worked... but at whose expense?

[Clare Prop]

Has it worked though?
The whole RAAus thing shouldn't have been on the same playing field in the first place.
From what I've observed in the last 20 years or so, most LSAs just aren't tough enough for flying training and have sent some good operators to the wall.
I heard from a LAME that a certain Aquila, by the time it was imported and on the VH register, cost half a million bucks. Could have got 8 reliable second hand Cessnas or Pipers for that price, had a decent range and a sturdy reliable aeroplane with a steady resale value. I guess that's why some of us are still flying the dinosaurs.

[mcoates]

The whole system is about self compliance. A manufacturer has to build an aircraft to a set of standards and then the manufacturer needs to sign off that there aircraft meets or exceeds the said standards.

Generally, aircraft that are questionable are audited by different CAA's very quickly after they hit the market or when they have a couple of 'similar' incidents. I don't know how many aircraft CASA have audited and I know the FAA had done dozens in the category around the globe.

World CAA's are generally very happy with how self compliance works and now they are accepting the same system for part 23 aircraft where now a manufacturer can claim self compliance based on a similar set of standards.

If an aircraft manufacturer states compliance of an aircraft does not meet that standard then they are solely 100% responsible. This way grieving widow's and their lawyers go chasing the manufacturer who has stated their aircraft is compliant and meets a standard rather than chasing a CAA who accepted the aircraft based on their own, sometimes limited, testing and evaluation.

This is a system that allows aircraft to come her market much faster than would normally happen in a fully certified system which in turn makes the cost of aircraft cheaper.

If a manufacturer cheats the system and doesn't meet the approved and accepted standards then they deserve whatever they get.

This is not an RA-Aus issue, not an FAA issue, or a CASA issue because self certification is the way the industry has been instructed to proceed into the future of aviation, like it or not.

[Squawk7700]

Has it worked though?
The whole RAAus thing shouldn't have been on the same playing field in the first place.
From what I've observed in the last 20 years or so, most LSAs just aren't tough enough for flying training and have sent some good operators to the wall.
I heard from a LAME that a certain Aquila, by the time it was imported and on the VH register, cost half a million bucks. Could have got 8 reliable second hand Cessnas or Pipers for that price, had a decent range and a sturdy reliable aeroplane with a steady resale value. I guess that's why some of us are still flying the dinosaurs.

That Aquila was a failure from the start. It joins a list of many before it and most likely many after.

[Ndegi]

That Aquila was a failure from the start. It joins a list of many before it and most likely many after.

Aquila has CASA Type Acceptance of an EASA TC. It is not a LSA.

[Squawk7700]

Aquila has CASA Type Acceptance of an EASA TC. It is not a LSA.

I didn't say it was an LSA.

It's too heavy for a 100hp Rotax for starters.

[Clare Prop]

Rich Lister resigns from embattled Soar Aviation


https://www.afr.com/companies/transport/rich-lister-resigns-from-embattled-soar-aviation-20200302-p5464d

[Sunfish]

He is pulling up the drawbridge.

[Squawk7700]

“Unrelated health issues”

Gee, that’s a new one!

[Sunfish]

My guess is that he and his money will vanish into Asia rather quickly, never to be seen again.

[Kiwiconehead]

“Unrelated health issues”!

Allergic to going to jail

[Clare Prop]

Isn't there a review of their RTO that is about to be completed about now?

[zanthrus]

Lies lies lies. About the only thing Neel did honest was his gym workouts ( possibly the odd steroid too but no idea). He has now had ample time to extract maximum cash from the business and shuffle it all overseas.

Shortly I reckon you won’t see him for dust!
Pity no one from whom he has stolen money will get a penny back, but good riddance you dodgy C#NT!

[Clare Prop]

“Unrelated health issues”

Gee, that’s a new one!
Christopher Skase comes to mind

[Squawk7700]

Christopher Skase comes to mind

I was being sarcastic :-)

There are a string of others. Gobbo and Overland come to mind.

[Office Update]

The interesting part about 'Gobbo' is the way the media handle all her articles.
Normally the media is quick to relate all of ones sins and give a complete running commentary

Except for Gobbo! she or her father seem to be receiving special treatment.

Why does the media not mention her famous father, former Chief Justice in every article. makes for good drama,

[Sunfish]

The Gobbo matter is the subject of a royal commission that’s why. In addition she can sue.

[Biggles081053]

SOAR has certainly been a cash cow for a smart operator in so called training, there have been lots of them, ripping off both the students and taxpayers.
But as far as getting a PPL, CPL, MECIR etc, never ever pay up front. You don’t need to. Pay as you go.
Also, you do not need to pay for ground courses, buy Tait’s books, particularly for the CPL and Instrument Rating.
You just study each book, do the questions, then do the exam, 7 in total or it was in 2002/2003 for the CPL.
Same for the IFR written. Just buy the book and study it .
There are great small schools around, if you do not get on with the instructor , say so and change. You are the consumer.
If they are not organised, do not do good pre and post briefs, do not keep your documentation up to date, are gruff,appear disinterested, mention it to the chi and change instructors. Even good schools get dud instructors.
Study the texts as if your life depends on it and enjoy your flying and stay away from the glossy schools.

[Biggles081053]

As a CPL with a MECIR and Instructor rating, I gasp at the idea of $75,000 being a reasonable amount of money to pay for a CPL.
200 hours of flying is the min number of hours for the non integrated course pathway.

Many of those hours are solo, most probably.

The average PPL takes say 65 hours, of that maybe 40 are dual.
Then the pilot flys lots of hours for pleasure solo or maybe sharing costs at $250 per hour wet, max a 172 or equivalent.
Builds hours, simultaneously goes off and buys Tait’s CPL series of books. Studies book of a night, weekends and sits each exam.
There is no need to go and pay for a class, pointless!
PPL then finds a local flying school, which does not require PPL to wear a uniform, which is the most ridiculous thing I see at some airports and undertakes the flying training required to reach CPL level.
This will involve some dual, but mostly solo at $250 max for solo, max $320 for dual.
Then when the CFI believes the PPL is ready and the 7 exams are all passed, a test flight is booked with the CASA delegate.

cost? Ppl...... 25 hrs x 320 =. 8000
40 hrs x 250 = 10000
Total max for PPL. = $18,000. Absolute max....

cost for pleasure hours.... 100hrs x $250. = $25,000

cost of dual for CPL. 25 hrs x $320 = $8000
cost of solo for CPL. 15 hrs x $250 = $3750

total hrs = 200. Total cost. $54,750 absolute max.....

So, I am not sure why $75,000 is a reasonable cost for a CPL.

[swells]

Well go start your own school then and destroy the opposition by your amazing ground breaking prices

As a CPL with a MECIR and Instructor rating, I gasp at the idea of $75,000 being a reasonable amount of money to pay for a CPL.
200 hours of flying is the min number of hours for the non integrated course pathway.

Many of those hours are solo, most probably.

The average PPL takes say 65 hours, of that maybe 40 are dual.
Then the pilot flys lots of hours for pleasure solo or maybe sharing costs at $250 per hour wet, max a 172 or equivalent.
Builds hours, simultaneously goes off and buys Tait’s CPL series of books. Studies book of a night, weekends and sits each exam.
There is no need to go and pay for a class, pointless!
PPL then finds a local flying school, which does not require PPL to wear a uniform, which is the most ridiculous thing I see at some airports and undertakes the flying training required to reach CPL level.
This will involve some dual, but mostly solo at $250 max for solo, max $320 for dual.
Then when the CFI believes the PPL is ready and the 7 exams are all passed, a test flight is booked with the CASA delegate.

cost? Ppl...... 25 hrs x 320 =. 8000
40 hrs x 250 = 10000
Total max for PPL. = $18,000. Absolute max....

cost for pleasure hours.... 100hrs x $250. = $25,000

cost of dual for CPL. 25 hrs x $320 = $8000
cost of solo for CPL. 15 hrs x $250 = $3750

total hrs = 200. Total cost. $54,750 absolute max.....

So, I am not sure why $75,000 is a reasonable cost for a CPL.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Biggles,
your maths is OK but some of your underlying assumptions are a bit out of date. People want a "product" handed to them on a plate. A program of training. The vast majority of CPL trainees are school leavers who need to be spoon-fed, and very few people train through the old "hour building" pathway of which you speak.

That is a pity, because it is often these guys who are the best/most practical GA pilots.

Your numbers also assume no IFR or Multi or night, but a bare Day VFR CPL.

I wish it worked the way you have painted it above!

We find that no matter how low-cost we make the training, punters can't afford $55,000-75,000.... or, more accurately, are not willing to do the hard yards involved at that price when they can get it "for free" through Vet Student Loans.
... I know, I know it's not "Free", but it's a gummint loan and that's the next best thing.


Cheers

[Biggles081053]

The LSA is not as heavy and maybe not as robust as the old 152, 172 and Piper equivalent, but the LSA market offered 2 seater modern aircraft with EFIS at an affordable cost.
For example the Bristell with A twin Dyson EFIS, a Garmin 650, auto pilot and even a BRS will cost maybe $250 k new. Use half the fuel per hour , more space for pilot and instructor compared to a new 172 which you will not get any change from $600,000 . Also the Bristell will get along at 120 knots plus.

I look at most of the aircraft in schools around south east Oz and they are 1970,1960 vintage, with steam gauge technology. Not that I believe that should be an issue at PPL level.

RAAus schools have been flying 600 kg max aircraft with students for some time.

We would all like to be flying Cirrus 22 Turbos but at 1.2 million a pop, it is just a dream.
I notice in the US at one establishment old 172s are being retrofitted with modern avionics. But the cost in the end is not affordable for most schools unless the students are willing to pay $400/ hr rental.

Many of the lighter aircraft are set up for night, have VH reg, eg, Bristell.
In fact in the US one can fly IFR in a Bristell. There really is no reason why they could not be, an aeroplane is an aeroplane. Icing condition naturally cannot be flown in nor can other larger IFR aircraft.
I wonder whether CASA would allow suitably equiped LSA aircraft to fly IFR in IMC if they were Experimental?

Having both a CPL, MECIR and 22 years of flying experience in all sorts of piston aircraft and an RAAus certificate I find that it the much lower inertia of the
RAAus aircraft requires greater skill to land well.

A new

[Biggles081053]

Yes Horatio, One spends big money when one starts multi-engine training.
There were lots of training Beechcraft Duchesses , Piper Seminole around in my time, they are all rusted away and in grim condition now. Not too many Partenavias either.
A few Senecas about, all 1970 or early 80’s. But one needs to experience asymmetric flight and have the hell scared out of them when the instructor de powers an engine when there is not enough runway to drop back onto.
A quick look at a Moorabbin provider and the Seminole is $639/$733 flights with per hour, wet I assume.

That $20,000 grand I just saved would be quickly gobbled up by that for sure.

[Biggles081053]

One could go to any flying school and achieve this total cost.
Aspirants probably have nobody to get advice from regarding the best way to obtain the flying qualification they dream of.
They sometimes get fooled as they naturally have no understanding of the process.
My advice is that there are some great schools and instructors out there who just love flying and teaching people to fly.
They are not interested in crushing the opposition if there is any at the local aero drone.
Never ever pay up front, enrol in an integrated course.
Make sure you love flying and are willing to knuckle down and do the less pleasant things, eg study Air Law, 85% pass mark
in the CPL.
Simple arithmetic and knowing the parameters allows one to determine what a PPL, a CPL a single engined CIR, multi engine CIR, night rating etc will cost.
The aircraft providers advertise their prices on the web.
I shall also reiterate, formal classes are not necessary, self study is very simple because of the excellent texts available.
Same goes for the IREX exam, buy Tait’s and study it, do all the questions, do not bother to go to a class if you are half intelligent.
Pre and post briefings are part of the dual cost of the flying lesson, so is the management of the student, documentation and so on.
Any school that requires you to wear a uniform should be avoided unless you are with the RAAF.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Good luck training in Bristells, the flying school which is the subject of this thread has explored that with disasterous consequences for several instructors and students.

[Biggles081053]

Swells, I would be happy to take you on and give you a discount and only charge you $70,000.
Sounds like you would be happy to pay 35% more than it should cost and are reluctant to do self study to achieve your dream.

[Checklist Charlie]

Whilst not wanting to divert this thread from its subject, I must correct Biggles081053 where he mentions the Partenavia (VH-PNW) accident at Essendon on 10/7/1978.
The investigation (https://www.atsb.gov.au/media/24632/197802547.pdf) conclusion was "The cause of the accident was that the aircraft became grossly out of trim at a height which did not permit time for the crew to affect recovery."

CC

[swells]

Swells, I would be happy to take you on and give you a discount and only charge you $70,000.
Sounds like you would be happy to pay 35% more than it should cost and are reluctant to do self study to achieve your dream.
yep well get your approvals, get your operating base going, get your aircraft, get some staff and pay them for a bit, maybe get some runs on the board - i.e., not be a nobody on pprune, and then come back

otherwise I got a lot of other things I would rather read

[On eyre]

Correct, my mistake, Was thinking of the sea crash east of Adelaide.
Yes out of trim, suspected that the chap doing a review inadvertently knocked the electric pitch trim toggle switch on the top of the control column.
Easily done in a situation like that, asymmetric flight situation.
I think asymmetric ops were then banned at Essendon.

sea crash east of Adelaide - that’d be in NSW then ? 😳

[Hamley]

Any school that requires you to wear a uniform should be avoided unless you are with the RAAF.

LMAAAOOOO TRUUUUU DAT!

[lucille]

With a very much diminished GA, where does a freshly minted CPL get work these days? Does anyone actually employ a 250 hour CPL / MEIR to fly an IFR twin single pilot?
These are questions which candidates need to ask themselves before committing the $100+ K to their dream.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Does anyone actually employ a 250 hour CPL / MEIR to fly an IFR twin single pilot?
I wouldn't say never, but immensely unlikely.

...I have however employed several 600-700 hour instructors in recent years who have ended up flying single pilot IFR twins within 6 months. It's not a first job, nor should it be, but it is handy to have the qualifications when your employer needs to put someone in the seat.

What the GA charter industry will look like in 6 months time however, with the NT and TAS in lockdown and no foreign tourists, nobody can say for sure.

[Squawk7700]

I wouldn't say never, but immensely unlikely.

...I have however employed several 600-700 hour instructors in recent years who have ended up flying single pilot IFR twins within 6 months. It's not a first job, nor should it be, but it is handy to have the qualifications when your employer needs to put someone in the seat.

What the GA charter industry will look like in 6 months time however, with the NT and TAS in lockdown and no foreign tourists, nobody can say for sure.

What the? Is Tas locked down, I was going to VFR it down there tomorrow morning??

[Lead Balloon]

As far as I am aware, Tassie’s not ‘locked down’ but there is a 14 day isolation period for ‘foreigners’ - anyone arriving from outside the State.

While pondering the versatility and usefulness of ‘light aircraft’ transport in the current crisis, I was also pondering how the Tasmanians will ‘police’ the 14 day isolation period. Easy for authorities to ‘know’ who’s arriving at the ports and the airports. Not so easy a light aircraft lobbing in to an ALA.

[Biggles081053]

For reading I suggest “self help for Psychopaths”, you sound like a very angry, unhappy person.

[Biggles081053]

Simple answer is do not spend the money unless you really can afford it.
Better still go to University and do a course that will get you a well paid job or learn a trade, become an aircraft mechanic.
Plenty of well paid jobs all over the world for a LAME but it takes a lot more than 200 hours to get the ticket.
Simultaneously have flying lessons, with a CPL and AME jobs will be plenty.
I have seen the majority of young CPLs with Instructor ratings end up working stacking shelves and having no money or prospects into their late 20s and even 40s.
Sadly there just are not the jobs around, save up and fly for pleasure.
I have known one or 2 go on to greater things, but one was French, the other was in the right place at the right time with connections. But by far the majority of those folk wandering around with white shirts , meaningless epilated and blue trousers at airports all over the world working to get hours up flying 172s earning nothing are most likely headed for disaster financially.
Try and get into the RAAF via the Defence Academy, you will need a very good HSC and like sport and be reasonably tough.

[Sunfish]

Simple answer is do not spend the money.
Better still go to University and do a course that will get you a well paid job or learn a trade, become an aircraft mechanic.
Plenty of well paid jobs all over the world for a LAME but it takes a lot more than 200 hours to get the ticket.
Simultaneously have flying lessons, with a CPL and AME jobs will be plenty.
I have seen the majority of young PPLs with Instructor ratings end up working stacking shelves and having no money or prospects into their late 20s and even 40s.
Sadly there just are not the jobs around, save up and fly for pleasure.


‘’Would simplifying the rules and removing barriers to entry help GA? Examples might include:

-Allowing instructors to practice as in the USA - no AOC or school required.

- Removing AOC and CPL rules regarding carrying goods for sale/tools of trade for tradesmen/engineers/specialists.

- rewording CAR206(/?) allowing milk runs, ad how charter without an AOC.

- Removing cost recoveries and CASA charges.

Ideally adopting FAA rules again with the purpose of encouraging flying activity.

[Biggles081053]

Interesting reply. Sticks and stones....
But I tend to stick to facts..
Simple arithmetic and experience will tell you the times and cost per hour.
Google say, Swan Hill Flying Club prices, Bendigo Club prices Or Kyneton or Canberra and you will find the cost of the aeroplane per hour.
You know the hours required.
What is your total for a PPl and CPL?

Your argument seems to be, what it should cost because of the effort an operator has put into setting it up.
I probably agree with you there.
The best schools are those where the owner does it because they love to fly and love teaching folks to fly and as long as they make a living, paradise.
That is my attitude.
I see Guy Pearson has expanded in Mildura and closed in Essendon, he thoroughly deserves success , because he has both those qualities, and the
quality of the pilots will be exceptional knowing Guy.

[Biggles081053]

I like your ideas, the FAA is a good example to follow.

CASA would consider the risk to themselves, the public and then to the student if they followed the FAA example, but I assume the FAA
has gone along the same path.

[aroa]

Sunny CAR 206 is the ultimate buggers muddle..! And then some.
Yr 3rd para gets into "commerce" WTF has CASA got to do with whether a PPL tradesman earns his keep carrying his tools and goods either for sale or not, in his c172.
All the "safety" regulator has to think about is whether the tradies is Licenced AFR and medical, his c 172 has a current MR. And he flies by the rules VFR or IFR. NOTHING ELSE,

The rest is a classic example of how bureaurats worm their way into TOTAL CONTROL of how you live yr life ...if an aircraft is involved.
IN the Wet the tradie must use the 172...in the dry he could pile into his ute and use what "road" there is.
Does he get booked by DoT for carrying tools, goods and engaging in commerce that has SFA to do with the travel by road.. NO he does not. Why then for the use of an aeroplane ????
And of course how CAsA applies 206 is inconsistent and discriminatory in the extreme.

Senate hearing 2011? and 13 ? ceo the Screamer McComic..." I say again (thinks: you dumb senators ) CAsA is NOT an commercial regulator" Got that. Absolute BS of cours
206 is handy because r 206 it is a catch all that has undone many.

Also the CA Act does not allow CAsA to regulate 'commerce', 206 is "ultra vires" the Act, and has no head of power' Its a rubbish regulation, but its there and a destructive one to boot.
Sec 92 of the constitution clearly? enshrines the right to free trade NOTHING to do with CAsA
Over the decades CAsA stated on numerous occasions they would rectify all that..BUT NEVER HAVE.

CASA also advised that non safety "crimes" of theirs, strict liability of course, that dont actually make it anywhere near the Govt definition of a crime.. eg forgetting to completely fill in a log book line These would be wiped or just minor civil instead of criminal misdemenours . AS usual wih CAsA ..NEVER HAPPENED'
CAsA the Nightmare is now overtaken by a different horror.
(Non) Aviation House could be empty in six months time, evryone gone home because there is no GA left
Fly safe and wash yr hands !