View Full Version : RN vs RM
https://twitter.com/davidwilletts3/status/1185817142798753792?s=21
Lima Juliet
20th Oct 2019, 15:40
Sounds like a good idea to me - always daft to have 2x “Captain” ranks within the Naval Service...
First they came for the Royal Marines......
Prawn2king4
20th Oct 2019, 15:55
I hope not.
Two of the most dangerous things in the military:
1. A naval officer with a map.
2. A matelot with a gun.
BEagle
20th Oct 2019, 16:57
What a totally pointless and unnecessary 'consultation'!
RM must continue to maintain their traditional ranks - as must the RN. There would be no point whatsoever in forcing fish-head ranks upon the Royals.
bobward
20th Oct 2019, 20:05
Sounds like the thin end of a wedge. The Canadians did it years ago, and have now changed back.
Here comes the British Armed Forces...…..
Marcantilan
21st Oct 2019, 00:35
A good idea. It will generate a lot of savings in rank insignia.
alfred_the_great
21st Oct 2019, 06:19
An idea generated by the RM, and discussed openly in the RN Command Plan.
move along, nothing to see here...
Capt Kremmen
21st Oct 2019, 10:45
Amalgamating ranks with what passes for a Navy - I don't think so ! Upon reading this twaddle I almost regurgitated my pink gin. Apart from a desirable amphibious capability, the Bootnecks were constituted as a ship borne force c. 1664 to prevent the lower deck from fastening their claws around the throats of the upper deck.
During these times, living conditions on the lower deck fostered discontent which went hand in hand with incitement to mutiny which augered not at all well for the health of the upper deck eg. the ships officers. As a former member of No. 40 Commando, we should be looking at ways to distance the Marines from the influence of our current 'snowflake' Navy. What exactly is the gain from this proposal? Do we want an erosion of identity of our best military formation ?
Tankertrashnav
21st Oct 2019, 10:57
Cant see what the point of all of this, looks like change for change sake to me. Nobody is confused by the present system (with the possible exception of Lima Juliet ;) ) Just a load of extra work changing over uniforms, having new insignia sewn on etc.
Union Jack
21st Oct 2019, 11:49
An idea generated by the RM, and discussed openly in the RN Command Plan.
move along, nothing to see here...
Perhaps Alfred would be kind enough to elaborate? There's some more info here https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/royal-navy-plot-strip-royal-3448142 and such a common rank structure already exists in the Netherlands, and probably other countries. Presumably it could even be part of a cunning plan to circumvent any form of amalgamation with any other Service......
Jack
alfred_the_great
21st Oct 2019, 14:15
The RM are part of the Royal Navy. Therefore, why shouldn’t they have the same rank insignia as the rest of the RN? A bit like the RAF Regiment are a part of the RAF and have the same (mostly) Rank structure as the rest of the RAF.
And it’s not a “plot”. It’s in the OS version of the RN Command Plan (pg40), which is helpfully found on the front page of the RN MoDNet.
Capt Kremmen
21st Oct 2019, 15:14
By what stretch of the imagination are the Marines part of the Navy ? The Marines are first and foremost soldiers whose transport into battle is usually but not solely the responsibility of the Navy. Both services share the same disciplinary code and there the mix of identity ends.
My opinion is that our Marines would be much better administered under Army command - as it used to be - altho' briefly, certainly for the Commando's.
alfred_the_great
21st Oct 2019, 15:30
By what stretch of the imagination are the Marines part of the Navy ? The Marines are first and foremost soldiers whose transport into battle is usually but not solely the responsibility of the Navy. Both services share the same disciplinary code and there the mix of identity ends.
My opinion is that our Marines would be much better administered under Army command - as it used to be - altho' briefly, certainly for the Commando's.
A - We (the RN) pay for them.
B - They’ve always been a part of the RN. They (until the HERRICK years) were routinely part of Ship’s Company’s, and pre-Commandos, were integrated into the Ship (IIRC Y Turret was always the RM’s).
C - We have an Army. Given A applies, why should the RN pay for anything to do with the Commandos? We pay for 29 and 24 BTW.
D - If they are simply “soldiers from the sea”, see C.
Fortunately the Corps has some pretty switched on Officers who understand that C (in particular) is a huge risk for them. So they are adapting (as ever) and demonstrating to the RN that they are worth paying for, and they bring something different that 1 LOAMS. Part of that is by following the Dutch model of having their Officers use Naval Rank insignia - to demonstrate they are Naval, not mildly lost pongos.
I imagine the next step will be to put a fair amount of RM at sea, permanently, QE already has a dedicated Coy Gp from 42 Cdo - they’re probably the first step in the right direction.
Wrathmonk
21st Oct 2019, 17:11
Do RM officers still go 'up' a rank when they are onboard one of Her Maj's war canoes (i.e. a RM Captain has the onboard seniority of a RN Lt Cdr) or was that an urban myth? And if so, are they acting local paid (or unpaid) and do they wear the insignia of their elevated rank?
alfred_the_great
21st Oct 2019, 17:38
Do RM officers still go 'up' a rank when they are onboard one of Her Maj's war canoes (i.e. a RM Captain has the onboard seniority of a RN Lt Cdr) or was that an urban myth? And if so, are they acting local paid (or unpaid) and do they wear the insignia of their elevated rank?
nope.
aligned with NATO ranks.
Wrathmonk
21st Oct 2019, 18:25
Ta. Everyday a school day.
BATCO
21st Oct 2019, 20:22
Batco jnr is a RM Captain. He tells me that officer ranks and insignia are destined to change to those of RN, while RM ORs will retain 'military' rank and insignia.
Regards
Batco
Capt Kremmen
21st Oct 2019, 20:34
The Navy pays for nothing, it is the British taxpayer who picks up the tab - as with everything. There has always been a perception, probably exercised by both factions, of the differences between shipboard marines and the Commandos and the SBS.
The Commandos and the SBS being 'real' soldiers down among the dirt, with the big ship marines being responsible for bags of swank, big bands and bullshine. As for the description: "soldiers from the sea", during WW1 the marines role as light infantry was recognised in the title of Royal Marines Light Infantry and it was in this capacity that they maintained that role until early in WW2 when they were incorporated into some of the first Commando formations.
The eclipse of big ships from the British Navy meant that ship marines no longer had much of a home. That fact accompanied by the success of the Commandos in various 'brush wars' and post colonial skirmishes switched any remaining emphasis away from the bullshine bootnecks and ensured that a confident future lay ahead for the 'khaki' element of the Corp. If any element is required for service on the flat tops, I'm sure it will be those wearing the green beret and they'll serve with distinction much as they did on the former Commando carriers; Bulwark and Centaur.
langleybaston
21st Oct 2019, 21:17
during WW1 the marines role as light infantry was recognised in the title of Royal Marines Light Infantry and it was in this capacity that they maintained that role until early in WW2 when they were incorporated into some of the first Commando formations
Only if the Great War started in 1855.
Union Jack
21st Oct 2019, 22:26
Do RM officers still go 'up' a rank when they are onboard one of Her Maj's war canoes (i.e. a RM Captain has the onboard seniority of a RN Lt Cdr) or was that an urban myth? And if so, are they acting local paid (or unpaid) and do they wear the insignia of their elevated rank?
Glad to see that Alfred goes along with the thoughts expressed in my Post - at least by implication.
Royal Marine officer ranks were realigned with Army ranks, with the obvious exception of Captain General, wef 1 July 1999, prior to which they had "appeared" to be one rank below their Royal Navy equivalents, despite being treated - and paid - as being of equal rank. The previous situation applied to officer from the rank of Lieutenant to Colonel with under five years seniority, and Royal Marine officers serving directly with the Army were usually awarded local higher rank for practical reasons, whilst the rank of Brigadier Royal Marines became a substantive, rather than an acting, rank in 1997.
Jack
Wrathmonk
22nd Oct 2019, 10:40
Glad to see that Alfred goes along with the thoughts expressed in my Post - at least by implication.
Royal Marine officer ranks were realigned with Army ranks, with the obvious exception of Captain General, wef 1 July 1999, prior to which they had "appeared" to be one rank below their Royal Navy equivalents, despite being treated - and paid - as being of equal rank. The previous situation applied to officer from the rank of Lieutenant to Colonel with under five years seniority, and Royal Marine officers serving directly with the Army were usually awarded local higher rank for practical reasons, whilst the rank of Brigadier Royal Marines became a substantive, rather than an acting, rank in 1997.
Jack
Thanks Jack - that puts the story told to me (back in 1994/95....) in total context now.
Glad to see that Alfred goes along with the thoughts expressed in my Post - at least by implication.
Royal Marine officer ranks were realigned with Army ranks, with the obvious exception of Captain General, wef 1 July 1999, prior to which they had "appeared" to be one rank below their Royal Navy equivalents, despite being treated - and paid - as being of equal rank. The previous situation applied to officer from the rank of Lieutenant to Colonel with under five years seniority, and Royal Marine officers serving directly with the Army were usually awarded local higher rank for practical reasons, whilst the rank of Brigadier Royal Marines became a substantive, rather than an acting, rank in 1997.
Jack
A Lt (RM) at Middle Wallop at that time went on leave and came back 3 weeks later as a Major having been promoted.....confused the Army students.
dead_pan
22nd Oct 2019, 14:06
Why don't they just merge the Royal Marines with the army, with say the Parachute Regiment? I'm sure it would work out just fine...
MPN11
22nd Oct 2019, 14:30
Why don't they just merge the Royal Marines with the army, with say the Parachute Regiment? I'm sure it would work out just fine...
Yeah, the ‘social events’ down at ‘t pub would be impressive! :)
langleybaston
22nd Oct 2019, 14:45
Yeah, the ‘social events’ down at ‘t pub would be impressive! :)
Blood, snot and teeth everywhere!
Asturias56
22nd Oct 2019, 16:34
Marines are still a needed specialty - "parachutists" aren't - it's just the name of a Regiment - like "Fusiliers" or "Grenadiers"for a specialty task that is long gone
I suppose every Army needs a bunch of ultra -hard men - but they need to be careful where they use them as the UK found out to its cost ..................
"Rough men do violent things that we may sleep safe in our beds at night" - IIRC, George Orwell
Hawk98
22nd Oct 2019, 21:37
Marines are still a needed specialty - "parachutists" aren't - it's just the name of a Regiment - like "Fusiliers" or "Grenadiers"for a specialty task that is long gone
I suppose every Army needs a bunch of ultra -hard men - but they need to be careful where they use them as the UK found out to its cost ..................
Pretty sure the Parachute Regiment still train to do just that... ever heard of 16 Air Assault Brigade?🤔
WE Branch Fanatic
22nd Oct 2019, 22:05
The Naval Service (RN, RM, QARNNS, and their Reserves) is currently going through a period of transformation and all sorts of things are being considered. This issue has also been discussed on ARRSE (https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/royal-marine-officers-to-adopt-royal-navy-rank-structure-maybe.295315/).
World gone mad! Bah!
Tankertrashnav
22nd Oct 2019, 23:42
Why don't they just merge the Royal Marines with the army, with say the Parachute Regiment? I'm sure it would work out just fine...
And you could throw in the Rockapes as well - that would be fun ;)
Thud_and_Blunder
23rd Oct 2019, 18:35
I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the arrangements involving all 3 of the above-mentioned organisations who work - closely - together at St Athan. What they do there doesn't seem to directly accord with everyone's prejudice(s).
alfred_the_great
23rd Oct 2019, 19:27
I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the arrangements involving all 3 of the above-mentioned organisations who work - closely - together at St Athan. What they do there doesn't seem to directly accord with everyone's prejudice(s).
That would imply this board had individuals who
a - were serving and knew what happened at St Athan
b - weren’t obsessed by having two wings on their chest
and
c - accepted that FJs (and their pilots) are a simple tool to get a part of a job done, like any other slice of the Armed Forces.
But yes, that lot do work well together, but it’s taken some time to get there.
gijoe
24th Oct 2019, 09:22
Marines are still a needed specialty - "parachutists" aren't - it's just the name of a Regiment - like "Fusiliers" or "Grenadiers"for a specialty task that is long gone
I suppose every Army needs a bunch of ultra -hard men - but they need to be careful where they use them as the UK found out to its cost ..................
Said by someone that evidently has no idea how Defence works. Utter bellchopper.
Tankertrashnav
24th Oct 2019, 11:16
Confessing ignorance here, but what does go on at St Athan? Over 40 years ago it was the place we sent our Victor 1s to die, but I assume the place has changed a bit since then.
sturb199
24th Oct 2019, 12:01
Confessing ignorance here, but what does go on at St Athan? Over 40 years ago it was the place we sent our Victor 1s to die, but I assume the place has changed a bit since then.
Google is an amazing thing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Forces_Support_Group
Tankertrashnav
24th Oct 2019, 23:09
Yes but PPRuNe is even more so!
Maxibon
25th Oct 2019, 10:24
.
And you could throw in the Rockapes as well - that would be fun ;)
Why would you merge two offensive units such as the RM and PARA with an airfield defence force???!!!
Wrathmonk
25th Oct 2019, 12:20
Why would you merge two offensive units such as the RM and PARA with an airfield defence force???!!!
You've sure got some big juicy worms dangling on your hook there.....but I'm sure you'll still get a bite or two ;)
Davef68
25th Oct 2019, 12:42
Up until the Marine Branch closed in 86, it always amused me that the Air Force had an army and a navy, the Navy had an army and an air force and the Army had an air force and a navy.
Union Jack
25th Oct 2019, 13:51
Hence, Fly Navy, Sail Army, Eat Crab.....
Jack
cafesolo
25th Oct 2019, 14:25
Better remembered as Fly Navy,Sail Army, Walk Sideways.
Union Jack
25th Oct 2019, 21:18
Better remembered as Fly Navy,Sail Army, Walk Sideways.
Which inevitably reminds me of the well known submarine CO who would always make a point of going up to introduce himself to visiting Crabs in the wardroom at Faslane - hand held out and.... walking sideways!
Jack
langleybaston
25th Oct 2019, 22:49
Was the RN or the RAF that ordered "in future pongoes are to be referred to as soldiers"?
Tankertrashnav
25th Oct 2019, 23:19
Originally Posted by Tankertrashnav https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=10601065#post10601065).
And you could throw in the Rockapes as well - that would be fun https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/wink2.gifWhy would you merge two offensive units such as the RM and PARA with an airfield defence force???!!!
I assume a lot of regulars here know I used to be a Rockape myself before I was a nav, so my post was just a bit of a teaser. Not partial to worms so I wont be biting!