CAE Oxford - Contracts for 2020

[Dopsonj]

Hello all,

Having passed my Skills Assessment in August this year and with a view to starting my training in March/April 2020 (Need the time to facilitate the adjustment of my current business and time to put other affairs in order) I reached out to Oxford to look at provisional start dates for this period. I have been told that there are currently no Integrated ATPL Contracts available yet for 2020, as they're "waiting on course details".

Just curious to see if others, looking at the whitetail scheme have had similar feedback from them or alternative if you're on an easyJet or similar scheme if you already have a 2020 start date? Whilst 2020 might seem "ages" away we're a little over 3 months, I find it curious that they haven't yet structured their 2020 diary for their next intake.

Reading between the lines and from general feedback it seems perhaps that they've bitten off more than they can chew with regards to the easyJet MPL and are now having to play catch up.

On a side note, I passed assessments in 2010 and 2015, both times other things came up but I have found that my experience of CAE Oxford on this occasion hasn't been up to the standards I had before which is a little disappointing but again reading on here and elsewhere, it doesn't appear that I'm in the minority - Again, one could assume this is down to increased workload whilst quality has dropped?

All thoughts welcome,

[gordonquinn]

Just a thought but perhaps the current political situation and uncertainty is influencing their decision

[parkfell]

Go MODULAR. Plenty of quality providers who wouldn’t treat you as just a number aka ‘puppy farm’ operation.

You are after all the paying customer. Spend it wisely once you have obtained your Class One Medical.

[Dopsonj]

At 27, I would love to go modular - However I run my own company which currently see's me working 6 days a week - 9-6 at the office plus hours either side and Sundays. It's unrealistic of me to expect to get home after a day of work and switch mode to ATPL revision - My brain is already saturated with VAT, sales, repairs, customers, accounting & all the rest that a business entails to then want to concentrate in the evenings on that. So, for this reason integrated appeals far more to me, allowing me to step away and focus entirely on my training. But yes, I'm no longer a virgin when it comes to this debate that I've been having with myself as well, given I've already got the PPL and 150 odd hours logged, modular would financially make more sense but to get my brain into gear, and fluidly pass my theory integrated makes more sense.

It's something I also want to have completed before 30, not that being over 30 is a barrier to the world of commercial but from my own body perspective.

Indeed as a paying customer I'm far more aware of this now, then I was 7 years ago when I first looked at OAA - Hence my concern with their current position on their 2020 schedule. As mentioned BREXIT could well be a concern, but I'd have thought they'd be more forth coming if that were the main issue...

[parkfell]

What stops you attending full time modular ground school. Bristol, Bournemouth to name but two?
With the hours you have, full time CPL/IR modular flying training is also possible, subject to any small shortfall that you may have.

In fact you will find that this route will take a shorter time than any of the ‘Big 3’ even if you are given some credit for previous experience.

Another option is PPL/IR, and then CPL later.

I doubt a ‘puppy farm’ would suit you.

[Cistor]

What stops you attending full time modular ground school. Bristol, Bournemouth to name but two?
With the hours you have, full time CPL/IR modular flying training is also possible, subject to any small shortfall that you may have.

In fact you will find that this route will take a shorter time than any of the ‘Big 3’ even if you are given some credit for previous experience.

Another option is PPL/IR, and then CPL later.

I doubt a ‘puppy farm’ would suit you.

This. You might want to consider, as an entrepreneur used to multi tasking and organizing your own operation, the fact that you might get delayed in these puppy farms with absolutely no input on the schedule and operations. You'll be just a number, as said, and any will to discuss or arrange things might be..... a fun experience (read North Korea). Go modular. 10 times. You'll be finished quicker. And cheaper, cherry on the cake. Ask yourself one thing about these puppy schools: who's got the biggest salary? Marketing Chief? Shareholders? Or Chief Pilot? Probably option 1 for some of them.

[Rottweiler22]

Towards the end of my time there, it seemed the accountants and corporate bods had full control of the place. The intakes kept rolling in, with courses constantly becoming bigger. It was a case of throwing hundreds more students through an already tired and overworked machine. More bums on seats equals more money. Hammer the instructors and aircraft, with just minutes between one flight and the next.

To keep things streamlined, they closed CAE Brussels’ IR department, but also opened CAE Madrid. They now send all their students to CAE Phoenix for VFR training and CPL, and everyone to Oxford for the IR. The students kept pouring in, and the disgruntled and overworked instructors kept leaving. Student to instructor ratios were in excess of 10:1 when I was there, so I dread to think what it could be now.

The school were giving students a few months off between finishing their CPL in the USA, and starting their IR in Oxford, as an obvious solution of controlling the mass of students flooding into the Oxford IR department. They used to quote 12 weeks for an IR, but now it would be in excess of 20 weeks. Far too many students for what they were capable of dealing with.

I assume what’s happening now to be an attempt at controlling the flow of students into the school, which is a very wise move. Hopefully they’ve realised that having 100 students in the system making good progress and finishing on schedule is better than having 180 students, all of which finish 5 months behind schedule.

Taking 8 months to do your VFR training and CPL, when they quoted 5, or 24 weeks to do your IR when they quoted 12 is not the least bit amusing. Hopefully, they’re trying to stop this by controlling the inward flow of students.

[parkfell]

Towards the end of my time there, it seemed the accountants and corporate bods had full control of the place. The intakes kept rolling in, with courses constantly becoming bigger. It was a case of throwing hundreds more students through an already tired and overworked machine. More bums on seats equals more money. Hammer the instructors and aircraft, with just minutes between one flight and the next.

The students kept pouring in, and the disgruntled and overworked instructors kept leaving. Student to instructor ratios were in excess of 10:1


What the beancounters and management lack are the CRM skills. At least communicate with the training department to see what is feasible as to the rate at which the sausage machine can work.
The workforce will undoubtedly vote with their feet. It isn’t until there is a significant profit dip that common sense will start to prevail.
“The floggings will continue until moral improves”

Under CAP509 (last century) CPL/IR approved training, the recommended maximum ratio was 6:1 for the twin instructor and that was with full time simulator instructors doing their bit.

Reputations are hard acquire and takes sometime, but can be lost in a blink of an eye.

Potential customers aren’t stupid. They recognise that quality full time modular ATOs exist.

[B61]

The rumour is that Oxford will close, so maybe that is the reason for there being no course details ?

The sim centre at Oxford closed suddenly and was moved to Gatwick in January, and the groundschool side seems to be gradually being run down (fewer courses, ground instructors leaving etc). They have spent some effort building up the Madrid site for groundschool, utilising exciting CAE premises there, so I would guess that the same model would apply with Gatwick. My guess is that MPL students would go there and European students to Madrid and Brussels.

The small footprint of buildings they have left is in such a poor state rumour is that the airport want to demolish and build a business aviation centre, although they presumably would have to make alternative arrangements for a control tower.

there is also the issue of flying - if the UK is booted out of EASA then Arizona is finished. Only the CAA accepted EASA training in a non EASA stated so they would have to relocate - maybe Madrid ?

There would be no loss of Oxford name since the whole Kidlington site had all references to Oxford removed 18 months ago and replaced with CAE log.

As was mentioned above, all the corporates rSwipes now dominate the places. They don't come cheap and that is what you are paying for if you dumb enough to fall for some very tired marketing. It's just amazing that they still think the name means people will wait for them to get their (extremely disorganised ) rear end into gear.

[PPRuNeUser0185]

The rumour is that Oxford will close, so maybe that is the reason for there being no course details ?

The sim centre at Oxford closed suddenly and was moved to Gatwick in January, and the groundschool side seems to be gradually being run down (fewer courses, ground instructors leaving etc). They have spent some effort building up the Madrid site for groundschool, utilising exciting CAE premises there, so I would guess that the same model would apply with Gatwick. My guess is that MPL students would go there and European students to Madrid and Brussels.

The small footprint of buildings they have left is in such a poor state rumour is that the airport want to demolish and build a business aviation centre, although they presumably would have to make alternative arrangements for a control tower.

there is also the issue of flying - if the UK is booted out of EASA then Arizona is finished. Only the CAA accepted EASA training in a non EASA stated so they would have to relocate - maybe Madrid ?

There would be no loss of Oxford name since the whole Kidlington site had all references to Oxford removed 18 months ago and replaced with CAE logo.

As was mentioned above, all the corporates rSwipes now dominate the places. They don't come cheap and that is what you are paying for if you dumb enough to fall for some very tired marketing. It's just amazing that they still think the name means people will wait for them to get their (extremely disorganised ) rear end into gear.

Damn, I didn't know about this rumour. I'm looking to apply very shortly, and I was aiming for Oxford as that's most convenient being a UK resident etc. Perhaps I should look into Madrid and Brussels more.

It also does sound strange how they're being reluctant to give out 2020 start dates; I have heard that there is quite a backlog at the moment especially with the easy MPL, so they may be trying to get through that first.

Annoying though, as I could very much do without all this uncertainty when i'm about to apply!!

[covec]

I passed an interview as an FI for a non-UK FTO. They decided to forgo hiring me until BREXIT was sorted or I “switched” my UK issued EASA Licence to say, an Irish issued one.

[B61]

LB123,

its a problem also with L3, so it would be very wise to do some research.

if you are in London, Stapleford get very good results indeed. Currently the modular schools are getting people through and into jobs, while CAE/L3 are bogged down with delays, lack of instructors, and some very disgruntled ex-customers.

as mentioned by COvec, if you go to Atlantic in Cork or Diamond in Sweden you get an EASA licence, which is an unknown with CAE at them moment.

no need to waste £100k on "integrated" when you can get the same job at the end at 60% of the cost. Plus you can selected providers at each stage, while with Integtared once you have signed up with the, you are stuck with them regardless of how shabbily they treat you. Such as back of the queue behind Sleazyjet / military students.

Seems to be a chaotic situation if you can’t tell people what sort of course you will run.

[Thegreenmachine]

Hello all,

Having passed my Skills Assessment in August this year and with a view to starting my training in March/April 2020 (Need the time to facilitate the adjustment of my current business and time to put other affairs in order) I reached out to Oxford to look at provisional start dates for this period. I have been told that there are currently no Integrated ATPL Contracts available yet for 2020, as they're "waiting on course details".

Just curious to see if others, looking at the whitetail scheme have had similar feedback from them or alternative if you're on an easyJet or similar scheme if you already have a 2020 start date? Whilst 2020 might seem "ages" away we're a little over 3 months, I find it curious that they haven't yet structured their 2020 diary for their next intake.

Reading between the lines and from general feedback it seems perhaps that they've bitten off more than they can chew with regards to the easyJet MPL and are now having to play catch up.

On a side note, I passed assessments in 2010 and 2015, both times other things came up but I have found that my experience of CAE Oxford on this occasion hasn't been up to the standards I had before which is a little disappointing but again reading on here and elsewhere, it doesn't appear that I'm in the minority - Again, one could assume this is down to increased workload whilst quality has dropped?

All thoughts welcome,
Good to see this type of post anaylising what your future may look like. I left Oxford in 2017 so unfortunately can't help on future bookings. The place then was OK, did what it said on the tin but was being run with cost cutting in mind.
​​​​​​Pm for any more info otherwise best of luck, braver person than me to start training in the current climate.

[Dopsonj]

Thoroughly appreciate the detailed, comprehensive and frank responses to my original post, you can always rely on these forums for frankness and honesty when it's most needed and for that I'm grateful. I think it's easier I tackle each point in one post without multi quoting.

I guess on my part, naivety that OAA/CAE still lead the pack, simply because it was a path I'd walked before and the feeling I got seemed right, however on this occasion it's certainly caused me to review and open my eyes to other prospectives.

As far as the modular route goes - again, I wasn't aware that many now offer full time theory, including FTA who're a 30 minute drive, or 22m on the train with no changes and I can continue to live in my property without having to relocate - This does completely re-open the possibility of modular as the business could be practically put on the back burner to allow me to complete the theory and then brought back into function to allow me to fund the MEP/ME IR/ME CPL (which FTA offer as a package) along with the UPRT and MCC/JOC. However FTA's Theory is 9 months, vs 6 at many others so I'm going to visit and discuss what's possible in terms of distance learning/full time combination.

I also have use of a PA28 based at Andrewsfield (Where I gained by PPL - Uncles A/C) which will allow me to hour build & night rating at a far more cost-effective proposition. .

Thank you to those who've been through CAE and their thoughts and contributions, it's always good to take a view from that side, at the end of the day it is a business and beancounters rule the world, costs are everything but their attitude with what I've experienced has really changed my frame of mind.

Does anyone here have any experience of FTA? I will find time this week coming to go down (believe they do it on a Thursday) but they also offer an integrated scheme with a discount applied if already holding a PPL - so another option, but it would make more sense possibly modular.

Again, all thoughts welcome - thank you for taking the time to respond.

[Dopsonj]

& on a side note - anyone have any thoughts on recovering the costs spent on a CAE assessment given they've been unable to offer a start date within 6 months...? ;)

[B61]

Assessment ? ...write it off and put it down to experience.

FTA have a very good reputation. They have been the school of choice for a number of students who got kicked out of the integrated courses after having had too many fails at ground exams (4 is the limit at at least one integrated school). RAF attitudes and "chop" mentality which they think maintains standards still prevail in the bigger outfits! It worked out well for them - they were complete and getting jobs while their former classmates got stuck taking many months due to lack of instructors at integrated schools due to worsening Ts&Cs/pay/buoyant job market. Although industrial relations generally are in a poor state in aviation (BA being an example).

9 months for groundschool will be due to it being over three phases at FTA with the associated gaps due to exams etc. The integrated schools do it in 6 months in an attempt to keep to their 15-16 month advertised schedule. All pointless "hurry up and then wait" nonsense when they have students with all exams complete who then sit around for months waiting for flying training to start. Just pointless really. Better to give up the fiction of a 15 month course and will make it a more honest two years ? When everyone realises that you can get the whole course done as a modular student in about 6 months less than an "integrated" takes, then plans must change.

Perhaps they will abandon "integrated" entirely at CAE, which is why they cannot finalise course details ? And go for a modular approach ? "Integrated" has not been really the case for almost 20 years, it is just modular back-to-back with all the groundschool up front and about 50 hours clipped off the flying. Airlines have see through the b/s over the past 3-4 years and now take from either route. Big school names mean little to them. They just choose ones with a CPL/IR who do well in the interview and sim assessment.

Also at your age, and with some flying experience, you would be asked questions as to why you did not take the modular route. It would suggest lack of initiative and imagination !

[parkfell]

B61 raises some interesting points.
FTE Jerez was the last large ATO to drop the true “integrated” style of course earlier this decade.
Day ON, day OFF flying / ground school during the SE phase.
It then became a block of GS, followed by a block of flying. At least with the exams being done on the computer, you don’t wait 2 weeks anymore for the results to be published.

As for the valued customer who doesn’t achieve first time passes, it can reflect their maturity.
It doesn't remotely represent year one at university, where socialising plays a significant part of the activities for those who can afford it. There are exceptions. Law & Medicine to name but two courses, where ‘head in the books’ is required from the start.

EASA studies is fully head on from day one of GS. 9-5 five days a week. 2-3 hours study each night, 5/6 days a week is required. A bit of OCD helps.
Do that and obtaining good results should be a stroll in the park. You simply keep nibbling away at it from day 1.
The analogy is the process of “OSMOSIS”. The material once described by an old hand (ex RAF nav) as HIGH volume, LOW grade material to learn. His other view was that if you were “thick” at the ground school, you would be “thick” at the flying. There is a strong correlation between brain power in the writtens & the flying. Not always.
After all, it is not Fast Jet training.

There are those who would say that age 21 should be the minimum age to commence professional training. A degree / life experience building maturity, is a critical ingredient of a *junior bird man*. The degree doesn’t have to be even remotely aviation oriented such as aeronautical engineering etc. Foreign language, History, English, science etc would be well chosen courses. A valuable meaningful degree and not one which might be regarded as “underwater basket weaving”.

There are always exceptions where a young person aged 18 have the necessary maturity. They are, however, as rare as rocking horse sh_t.

Note: in these days a political correctness the phrase *junior bird man* is a generic phrase reflecting which gender you orientate towards.
A phrase used by one Sandy Thomson last century who ran stand alone groundschool under CAP509. Pete Lyons are well. Booker May 1992. A really enjoyable month with such legends. I didn’t miss the flying one little bit. ATPL nav block ✔️DCO

[redsnail]

Ahhh Sandy Thomson, a true gentleman. He ran a lovely ground school at Coventry. (Sadly gone now).

[Reverserbucket]

B61 - I thought the Belgians and Dutch approved EASA training at CAE PHX as well?

[B61]

There is ATPL groundschool in Brussels ( the IR flying was done in Antwerp but that closed and students had to switch to Oxford). I supposed it depends on who is the overall approving authority for the integrated course. Could it be that there reverse was true and the CAA added Brussels and Amsterdam to the list of approved places for CAE ?

EASA was always very sniffy about training being done outside an EASA state. What my have been snuck through by OAA ( as was) in 2001 based on some grandfather rights from the early 90s would be very unlikely today.

i think L3 read the tea leaves correctly when they closed down in Phoenix and moved to Portugal. It all hinges on if the UK stays in EASA. The CAA is re-establishing certification capability, so suggests they can see the writing on the wall.

my guess is that there will be no news on "contracts" until after 31st October !

The he other major issue is exchange costs. L3 were doing a lot of VFR training in Bournemouth and have recently opened in Cranfield. The current rate of £ to $ just wiped out any cost advantage, and the other problem was that they just could not get hold of sufficient instructors as they all left to go to regional airlines in the US.

[Reverserbucket]

CAE acquired a number of independent FTO's some years ago - each held an approval in it's own right for training outside of member states under JAR and therefore training in Phoenix was approved by the Belgian CAA (BCAA) for the former Sabena Flight Academy/Sabena Airline Training Center (SFA/CAE Brussels), the Dutch IVW/ILeNT for the Nationale luchtvaartschool (NLS/CAE Amsterdam), and subsequently, when OAA was bought in 2012, a UK CAA approval for that operation. CAE Phoenix was effectively three EU approvals under one roof. Things are different under EASA and certainly efforts were made to rationalise the three operations (in fact, the aim was to align them with FAA as far as possible, which couldn't work). OAA was not alone holding approvals as far back as 2001 either as the UK CAA also approved the University of Western Michigan and a number of other smaller operations (FlightSafety held a CAP509 approval pre-JAR at their Vero Beach, FL facility), the LBA approved Lufthansa Flight Training/ATCA and the Dutch, the KLM Flight Academy in Ryan, AZ and later Deer Valley, Phoenix, and Fort Pierce, Florida. I don't believe anything was snuck through by virtue of grandfathering - these were all legitimate, standalone approvals.

Is the CAA re-establishing certification capability?

[B61]

These were in the JAR days. Has any organisation managed to gain approval since EASA formally was adopted by all in Sept 2012?

Perhaps we will find out soon?

[Reverserbucket]

The approvals I mentioned in the Phoenix area were also post-EASA adoption.

[DJBowl]

You would be crazy to go integrated, someone with your life experience and hours will HATE the integrated environment. (I went to the other one, not CAE)

[Dopsonj]

Thought I'd update those within this thread,

Following discussions and suggestions on Modular, I've now booked my ATPL Theory with a April 2020 start date with FTA at Shoreham.

Between now & then I will update & build hours required on my PPL along with securing a night rating on a PA28 I have access to at Andrewsfield.

CAE did eventually get back to me with start dates:

Friday 24th of January 2020 – AP436
Friday 20th of March 2020 – AP437

However as above, and after discussions with fellows on here & locally - Modular was selected.

Thanks to all those who stepped in to advise, I do believe the correct choice has been made.

[ten747]

Note, with contracts from 24th January 2020 you'll get less for the same course fee as the degree is no longer included. It is, however, soon available for an additional fee.

[DIaero]

I received some mixed opinions at CAE Madrid. Regarding the contracts situation they seemed to still be uncertain, at least that's what they said, and they actually said it is not a good time to start training because the airlines are reorganising the positions available and don't know what's gonna be next.

It is a bit aside from the main topic but also concerning CAE. I am planning to enrol in the CAE Vueling Cadet Programme and, when in Madrid, I felt like I was trying to be convinced to enrol in the MPL with Easyjet over the Integrated ATPL and the other courses.

I personally think that getting into an MPL with Easyjet is a good option and you might have a job secured, but in the other hand you are limited to that airline for a long time because you are instructed according to their job ethics and philosophy.

That's why I consider the Vueling Cadet program is better for some reasons, worse for others:
- It costs, in the end, around 15k euros less than the Easyjet MPL, because it includes accommodation, transportation and flights to all 3 schooling locations, and the EJ MPL only includes it in Phoenix, AZ;
- It also puts you toward a job with Vueling after you finish, considering you have the required results;
- Even though you'll be making around 2k net in the 1st year, you'll have the bonuses, etc and the following years you will probably get a raise. Also Vueling has a good reputation and seems stable so far (if I'm not misinformed);
- By being an ATPL course you're free to choose another airline after your contract is over which I consider being something really good if you intend to join a bigger and better airline in or outside Europe, or at least try to;
- It is true that at Easyjet you'll be making more money straight away but, again, you have to stick with them and maybe you don't know at this point (before beginning your training) if you'll want to work at EJ forever. Also, British Airways is the only airline recruiting from EJ (I was told by CAE), which means your path will be either sticking with Easyjet or after some time, luckily, moving to BA, which might not be easy, but it all depends on your success.

I've read a lot about CAE and L3 and my opinion is that L3 is not in good terms, not even in Portugal, so I'm not considering this school. Regarding CAE, many people say that it is more about the money and that those who go there think they are entitled to something better and greater, which I think shouldn't be the case, but simply because paying more for its reputation and connections might help you get a job faster having in consideration that you actually worked hard and are one of the best.

I just want to make it clear that I am also a bit uncertain on what to do and so I am simply expressing my thoughts, which may be wrong or not suitable for some, but that's why we have these forums, so that we can comment on things and give our opinions.

[Thegreenmachine]

Wow, where to start.


I personally think that getting into an MPL with Easyjet is a good option and you might have a job secured, but in the other hand you are limited to that airline for a long time because you are instructed according to their job ethics and philosophy.
Not true at all. You can leave ezy on the first day if you wish. I know first hand people who are still enjoying their time with ezy, as well as people who have left to move to other employment within the first 12 months.

That's why I consider the Vueling Cadet program is better for some reasons, worse for others:
- It costs, in the end, around 15k euros less than the Easyjet MPL, because it includes accommodation, transportation and flights to all 3 schooling locations, and the EJ MPL only includes it in Phoenix, AZ;
A good point to consider.

- It also puts you toward a job with Vueling after you finish, considering you have the required results;
The easyJet MPL will do exactly the same.

- Even though you'll be making around 2k net in the 1st year, you'll have the bonuses, etc and the following years you will probably get a raise. Also Vueling has a good reputation and seems stable so far (if I'm not misinformed);
easyJet is at least as stable as Vueling. You will get £3,000 a month first year in UK, more if based in Europe.

- By being an ATPL course you're free to choose another airline after your contract is over which I consider being something really good if you intend to join a bigger and better airline in or outside Europe, or at least try to;
It’s great that you give yourself options but the only choosing will be from the airlines. 99.9% of the time when you graduate you will lucky to have one offer of employment, very, very rarely will you have a choice between two employers.

- It is true that at Easyjet you'll be making more money straight away but, again, you have to stick with them and maybe you don't know at this point (before beginning your training) if you'll want to work at EJ forever. Also, British Airways is the only airline recruiting from EJ (I was told by CAE), which means your path will be either sticking with Easyjet or after some time, luckily, moving to BA, which might not be easy, but it all depends on your success.
See above point. You are free to go from day 1. You can take your MPL to the vast majority of airlines including national carriers straight away. Also remember after 1500hrs you can convert your MPL into an ATPL as part of your sim check.



I've read a lot about CAE and L3 and my opinion is that L3 is not in good terms, not even in Portugal, so I'm not considering this school. Regarding CAE, many people say that it is more about the money and that those who go there think they are entitled to something better and greater, which I think shouldn't be the case, but simply because paying more for its reputation and connections might help you get a job faster having in consideration that you actually worked hard and are one of the best.

I just want to make it clear that I am also a bit uncertain on what to do and so I am simply expressing my thoughts, which may be wrong or not suitable for some, but that's why we have these forums, so that we can comment on things and give our opinions.

I am no salesperson for cae/ ezy MPL scheme but if I had the choice between the two schemes I would choose the MPL course. In my opinion working hard and being a great student who is courteous/ hardworking/ respectful etc. is very important in trying to secure a job, not as important though as graduating at a time when the economic climate is good and lots of airlines are hiring, this is the hard bit to get right. Good luck whatever you decide.

[Hugues737]

Hello,

I passed stage 3 on the 17/07 session and I was offered the EZY ATPL Tagged route. From my last inquiry in October, I have absolutely no news concerning 2020 starting dates. Are the people in the same situation?

I also want some information about Madrid CAE for ground school compared to Brussels as it's a quite new training center.

Cheers,

[ventor]

Hello,

There are about 40 people who were offered EZY ATPL tagged route and all are waiting for 2020 starting dates confirmation.
I have no clear information when these dates will be given to us...so we are all in a waiting game..

Cheers,

[Woody9]

I also passed my stage 3 assessment and interview back in June and offered the tagged route.

After 5 months of no information from CAE, they’ve now contacted me to inform me that the tagged route no longer exists and I would have to train as a white tail. Has anyone else received this response from CAE? It’s absolutely shocking communication and actions of CAE, not honouring the training route we deserved to be on. All they were concerned with is securing their exclusive MPL deal, everyone else has been let down.

[ventor]

Most of us received the same email, ATPL tagged route does not exist anymore and what is shocking is that it applies retroactively!!! Very disappointing how both companies handled the entire process for more than 40 people...

[Zizijet]

Hi guys,
Same situation for me, that's totally disappointing and unacceptable ...
I successfully passed the Generation easyJet stage 3 last June and got the ATPL route. I have been waiting for more than 5 months and yesterday I got the same email.
So in CAE they open Cadet Programmes, they fix rules, you keep these rules and you succeed ... but at the end they change the rules and you are fu*ed !!
And of course if we want to join the easyJet MPL route we have to retake all the assessments (Stage 2 & 3).
Shame on you CAE, totally disrespectful :*

[B61]

I know CAE Oxford has a poor reputation with students these days. But pi***ng off batches of 40 a time is not going to help.

CAE usually want a 30 to 40% profit margin on their activities. They make it on training with the worlds MoDs and for contracts with airlines from hot and sandy parts of the world, and on MPL courses. Rumour is they wanted to charge £160k for an integrated ATPL, as paid by a couple of the ME outfits, but the boys in Orange would not wear it.

[DIaero]

I passed stage 2 a month ago and I've been trying since then to get in touch with them about Vueling's Cadet programme (the one I applied for) and they still didn't send me any confirmation, all they said was that it was on hold for now. Anyone having trouble with Vueling programme?

[itsdanny02]

CAE to train more than 1,000 new EasyJet pilots under cadet training agreement

What do you guys think of the new EasyJet sponsored programme exclusively with CAE? It's made a return, this time at a considerably less cost, however, only offering the MPL course and not the ATPL.

MPL Cadet Programme (excl. accommodation & ground transport): €92,739 (~£79,500)

This is a lot cheaper than the previous MPL cadet programme they offered where it costed around £100,000

You can complete the ground school phase at either one of their Madrid, Brussels, Milan or Oxford campuses. MPL training will also be conducted at Milan, Manchester and London Gatwick.

What do you think of this? Or would you prefer to do an ATPL course?

[ParsecPilot]

Does anyone here have any experience of FTA? I will find time this week coming to go down (believe they do it on a Thursday) but they also offer an integrated scheme with a discount applied if already holding a PPL - so another option, but it would make more sense possibly modular.

Again, all thoughts welcome - thank you for taking the time to respond.[/QUOTE]


yes it’s is correct they allow visits to their school every Thursday at 10am, just needs to be prebooked via their website (you can even bring a friend/parent/partner etc with you during the visit)

am looking to go after XMAS, am interested in their Intergrated course and would like to find out how the bulk of their former students get on after graduating...

will post back here after my visit in Jan 2020.

[Johan2314]

Stick with modular. It's a third of the price and you can pay as you go.

[Cistor]

Does anyone here have any experience of FTA? I will find time this week coming to go down (believe they do it on a Thursday) but they also offer an integrated scheme with a discount applied if already holding a PPL - so another option, but it would make more sense possibly modular.

Again, all thoughts welcome - thank you for taking the time to respond.


yes it’s is correct they allow visits to their school every Thursday at 10am, just needs to be prebooked via their website (you can even bring a friend/parent/partner etc with you during the visit)

am looking to go after XMAS, am interested in their Intergrated course and would like to find out how the bulk of their former students get on after graduating...

will post back here after my visit in Jan 2020.[/QUOTE]

They have a very competent marketing departement for sure. One of their lines: "students place themselves". Genius! Make sure you get some time with staff, instructors, head of training, and all the people that will count in during your training, which are generally not met during tours. Also, take the time to read terms and conditions, as with any other provider.

[DIaero]

Guys, has anyone that passed all the assessment stages for the Vueling cadet pilot program heard from CAE regarding the start of the next class in Madrid on February 17? I mean if they already confirmed that you were selected and admitted to start GS in February. I've passed 3 stages and I'm waiting for a supposed 4th stage in Barcelona but they won't answer or give me any details, which makes me think there might not be any stage 4 because they were convinced with my stage 3 results or it's just delayed and I'll hear from them soon. But I'm just kind of impatient to know what's next because as usual CAE isn't that quick on replies.

[Luke_T]

Did you hear anything regarding this? I too passed my stage 3 and was due to start, and then they introduced an additional last minute stage 4; I then ceived a phone call from CAE on the 1st of November telling me that the Vueling Contract had ended and that the only option would be to do a white tail or start my stages with another airline... Appalling service considering the cost incurred of flying to another country to have an interview for them to 'pull out' last minute with a poor alternative offered....

[Timothy Farnham]

It's all down to current crisis, it will pass - have you started studying on your own? #PrepareToSucceed ;)

[PFD]

Rumour is at Oxford that CAE will be moving to Gatwick by March next year at the latest, at least the Groundschool is.

[B61]

This has been in the wings for quite some time - am surprised it has taken so long. The "Oxford" name is history so the location is now irrelevant. The Oxford premises are very cramped, grubby, and have not had any money spent on them since the 1970s (see the acid 70s colour of the orange curtains in the Langford student accommodation for proof !).

If there is spare classroom space at a nice modern sim centre at Gatwick (or Madrid or Brussels or Amsterdam, for that matter), it does not make economic sense to maintain a stand-alone facility at Oxford. It has the highest cost per square metre of floorspace of any CAE facility worldwide. Or so stated a senior CAE bean counter visiting from Montreal about four years ago. In the same breath he said a move to Gatwick made sense, so the writing was on the wall.

How will they manage the move?

If its done the same way they moved the sim centre, the new instructors will in place at Gatwick, the ones at Oxford will be given the chop with short notice, very few if any will be stay on and commute to the new location, and the students get told be be at Gatwick for next Monday. Any complaints or requests for assistance for accommodation will have a clause in a contract pointed out to them which absolves CAE of any responsibility.

I suppose it does prepare them for the aviation environment.

The March 2021 date is very optimistic. I would expect most of the ground instructors will hand in their notice on receipt of the news, unless there is some compensation gold paid to keep them there till the end. In the current circumstances it would just make sense to stop any further courses starting until the move is complete.

Is the IR training going too? It would be the only thing left there so unless they have a cheap deal for a portakabin I could not see it staying. Perhaps it would make sense to leave Covid-plagued Arizona and concentrate all flying in one sunny EASA country?

My bet is.....something near Madrid. Or ...Ponte-de-Sur in Portugal. To show L3 what they could have had.

[Alex Whittingham]

Brilliant; what could go wrong? Ditch your expertise and move to a more expensive location in a depression with new hire help, because being a ground instructor is easy, right?....what else?... they could always do an L3 and enable their competitors by taking on too many cheapo contracts and then farming them out at a loss. How can these people carry on? Doesn't anyone in these mega corps oversee them playing in the sandpit?

[B61]

Well the timing is unlucky, but projects like this take some time to complete. L3 also now has an impressive sim and groundschool building now at Gatwick but I recall seeing an artists impression of that about three plus years ago. And it did replace their facility in Southampton which had been previously used as a logistics depot and was on an industrial estate ( a sensible, low cost location, I thought ! ). It had high ceilings so could fit in sims, but classrooms were in haphazard locations round the periphery.

The logic with CAE seems to be to have the ground school in large training centres. These are situated near major airports so crew can fly in, do a few days sim, then be off again with easy flight connections. Not an issue with groundschool since they have to endure for many months! But it does also mean the bean counters of the mega corps can whizz in, cause the usual chaos, then be on their way out with minimal delay. It’s just a downside of being owned by mega corps based in North America. Their knowledge of the UK is very sketchy: the one place they will of heard of is London so it keeps it very simple for them. Same is probably true of any overseas students, given the abysmal geographic knowledge of most of the younger generation (trainee pilots in particular!).

This does not apply to the indigenous ATOs like yourself and what you say about expertise is of course correct. But for those from across the pond the bottom line is everything: their philosophy is people have to uproot their jobs and lives to follow the location logic of Corporate North America, and they just don’t get this Neolithic logic in Europe of preferring to stay in a place you know and are settled in.

[PFD]

Well the timing is unlucky, but projects like this take some time to complete. L3 also now has an impressive sim and groundschool building

The building may be “Impressive” but it wasn’t going to be a groundschool as well and there is little to no parking, which for a new build is inexcusable, but ties in with L3s money saving philosophy. Plus as Alex says, “Being a groundschool instructor is easy, right?” No, it bloody isn’t, and most of L3s talent from Southampton said no to the move, as will happen with CAE. Both L3 Harris and CAE are huge corporations where every tiny bit of cost saving is squeezed from every budget. When I was at L3, the total money spent on training aids in 18 months was less than £100 and we kept asking for things. In the end I bought loads of stuff out of my own pocket. I do what I do because I love it and I care about producing good pilots, I won’t work for a company where profit is all and the customer comes last.

[B61]

“Won’t work for a company where the customer comes last”... sadly that does not leave you much choice of workplace in flight training! And by default excludes the mega corps....

”impressive” was a poor choice of word - perhaps “new compared to the industry normal grot” would have been better. Perhaps they have a stake in nearby car park operators?

The lack of spending on training aids is about right. At CAE the ground instructors used to complain about the whiteboard pens that only lasted about 3 lessons before they ran dry. Apparently the top management tnuc In charge at the time insisted on buying them because they were £1 cheaper per pack than the pens that would last for three months. When it was pointed out it was a false economy he demanded statistics on pen consumption and duration rates to back up this anecdotal drivel.

On such nonsense are well paid careers based. Usually until they are moved where they can cause less damage. It’s the sort of petty focus that management in the Uk used to be slagged off for in the 60s and 70s, but I think it is actually an international phenomenon because this nincompoop was from a flat, wet and boring country in North west Europe.

[ZFT]

Whilst I won't comment on the other issues raised , the L3 Crawley car park size had I believe more to do with a local councils 'green' requirements than L3 being cheap.

[B61]

Is the new CAE centre on Fleming Way, next the the Virgin base? There is a press release from autumn last year and YouTube video saying that they will move sims from the “old” Gatwick centre which will then close(?).

Is the “old” centre the one at Burgess Hill? I had always thought Burgess Hill was a district of Gatwick/Crawley but a look on Google maps shows it is around halfway between LGW and Brighton. Or was there already one located in Gatwick?

[portsharbourflyer]

B61, the CAE Gatwick site is not new, it has been around for quite some time, I did a sim assessment there in 2014, so it has been around for a while, not sure exactly when it opened.

But as I understand CAE Gatwick housed the mainstream Airline sims (B737, B767, assumed it may have A320 sims due to the Easy MPL course but not sure on that), where as Burgess Hill mainly concentrated on Sims for Bizjet types. However I believe Burgess Hill may also have Airbus sims as well.

[ZFT]

I believe there is a new CAE facility in Crawley at an old L3 facility that they gave up when they moved into their new facility on Gatwick Road last year

[portsharbourflyer]

ZFT, yes you are right, just done a quick search on CAE sites at Gatwick and it seems there are two CAE site's in close proximity, the original one at Fleming Way (which I was referring to) and CAE Diamond Point (also a fleming way address) which I assume is the old L3 building you are referring to.

[B61]

Any rumour on where the IR training will go to? I assume the CAE Oxford site will be completely closed.

It has been rumoured for some time the airport want to demolish the CAE buildings and build a new bizjet facility. I assume projects like this have a greater possibility of not being cancelled to Covid-19.

[portsharbourflyer]

There is no substantiated information to suggest the Oxford site will close. Ground school is moving to one of the Gatwick sites that is it, flight training will continue at Oxford.

[parkfell]

B61

Are the runways long enough for biz jets.......

1552m is fine for Saab340 / J41 for public transport.
Whether AOC Charter Operators as oppose to private jets would think so is a different matter?

[PFD]

Well they do fly in and out all the time so I guess so, yes.

the airport is definitely keen to increase its business jet through flow and flight training gets in the way, apparently.

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1504/8ed7878a_dbca_4fac_99a3_41d44ac6860f_d4a159b6f51325062a30efd 9e2254864462cdc66.jpeg

[B61]

Yes the runway is long enough, there has been biz jets up to the the Gulfstream V go in and out. Some years ago there was a Dash-8 from Flybe called in on a recruitment drive, although there were no pax on board and probably a light fuel load.

Training aircraft always do get in the way! And calling it “London Oxford” shows where their future ambitions lie.

The VFR flying left years ago, then the sim centre, now the groundschool. I would think what’s left is just a matter of time.

[3Greens]

Micheal Schumacher used to fly in with his challenger jet when the British GP was on.

[parkfell]

You need to differentiate between private operators and those operating on an AOC where more stringent performance criteria are applied.
RTO approaching V1; also loss of thrust at V1 or higher speed, & LDA/LDR.