Here We Go Again - Divide and Rule.

[Sunfish]

Yesterday I received my SAAA notam regarding the SAAA response to the proposal that RAA aircraft may increase allowable design maximum takeoff weights to 760 kg from 600 kg.

Sadly, the SAAA response is to reject the proposal. It seems because it will cost the SAAA aircraft and members, although the argument is dressed up in terms of safety.

The axis of the issue is that RAA pilots may self certify their medical fitness, thus removing the expensive, contentious and onerous task for PPL holders of getting new medical certificates at intervals that SAAA member pilots must put up with. This is a very attractive option for older pilots and many will no doubt change to RAA rules as a result if their aircraft fit the new weight limit. The new "basic class 2' is not an easy answer either but others can explain why, I thnk.

SAAA makes some comments about "standards' of RAA training and experience requirements that are in the negative but probably contain a grain of truth and of course link these to safety outcomes. I don't think anyone can fault the SAAA approach to safety, I certainly cannot. The RAA approach is perhaps a work in progress, but the aircraft are lighter, slower and smaller than SAAA big iron.

Its saddening to see this because the natural bureaucratic solution to this perceived unfairness is not to make self certification available to SAAA members up to say, the same 760 kg weight limit, but to remove the option of self certification from the RAA. So here we have the bait of self interest trailed and the SAAA bit hard.

That is not only sad, its bad for the total aviation community because it will reduce the number of pilots overall. The current proposal may cause a shift of pilots from SAAA to RAA. The removal of self certification will shift pilots for sure - from the RAA onto the golf course if they are faced once again with all the medical BS and expense that made them switch to RAA in the first place.

[roundsounds]

What you need to consider is that glider pilots have been safely operating on self certified medicals for many years. There are some well connected people involved in the sport, highly unlikely RAA will lose this privilege. If RAA was smart, they’d be citing this precedent to gain the access to controlled airspace enjoyed by glider pilots. (Same story for private balloon ops)

[Horatio Leafblower]

Sunfish

The RAA approach is perhaps a work in progress, but the aircraft are lighter, slower and smaller than SAAA big iron.


Don't forget that RAAus are seeking 1500kg, night, aerobatics and Control zone.

[Sunfish]

Yep, I guess they are. That’s why I suggested that their safety systems are a work in progress.

[Squawk7700]

Sunfish



Don't forget that RAAus are seeking 1500kg, night, aerobatics and Control zone.

Not quite.

They are currently seeking 760kgs.
Once that is approved or denied, they will then start on CTA.

The remainder are pipe dreams at best for the foreseeable future.

Those that visited the RA-Aus forums at Parkes were all made aware of the strategic direction that management are taking on these.

[Dexta]

I understand that the weight increase and its additional restrictions will be mandatory, i.e. if you currently have an RV4 in RAAus (MTOW reduced to 600 but certified to 680) then if the weight increase is approved then the RV4 will automatically get the increase but will then have to be maintained by a LAME (if the owner is not the original builder). In other words you do not have the option to keep it at 600kg and owner/operator maintained. I'm not sure what other restrictions will be applied but this could affect a lot of people.

[Squawk7700]

Stall speed is a big one.

When filling out the CASA response, you must include that you want them to increase the stall speed to greater than 45 knots, otherwise there will be potentially very few aircraft that are actually able to come across.

The best example of this would be a J230 Jabiru stalls at 45 knots at 600kg’s, so whilst it is capable of 760kg’s MTOW, it won’t be able to utilize it, because the stall speed will be closer to 49 knots dirty.

[machtuk]

The whole original idea of RA was to make GA flying more affordable by keeping the machines light weight, low stall speed and basic, they seem to have lost sight of the concept. 600 kg's has worked well.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Stall speed is a big one.

When filling out the CASA response, you must include that you want them to increase the stall speed to greater than 45 knots,

Ahhhh so... it' not just an arbitrary weight number but there are real safety considerations . Good to know.

[Ng5]

Our friends in CASA will be selling tickets to the front row seats for those who would enjoy the spectacle of the organisers of GA destroying themselves. As well as SAAA lampooning the weight increase on “ safety grounds “ I notice that AOPA are not very supportive either. If this results in RAAus pilots losing the self- assessment medical I think RAAus will be sorry that it was initiated by the current Board. Classic example of shooting yourself in the foot.

[no_one]

It's a shame that the various organizations can't work together but what did you expect? This latest rounds comes after RAAus argued back in 207 that a relaxation of the medial standards for GA pilots shouldn't happen as they would lose members....

https://www.raa.asn.au/storage/raaus-submission-casa-medical-certification-standards-discussion-paper-march-2017.pdf

[aroa]

Wow .! 49 kts over 45 !...must be some hellava 'safety case' to deny that. Gonna kill a lot of people at that stall speed is it ?

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Instead of "dog in the manger", what you should all be pushing for is "driver's license medical" for all PPL/Private flying, as per USA, and owner maintenance for all simple aircraft used for private operations --- have a look at Canada, as well as USA.

Just mucking around the edges of what we do now, a mostly incoherent mess, is NOT THE ANSWER.

As for RAOz and CTA, that's been going on since early 1990s, can't accuse anybody of rushing at CASA.

750 kg (not 760?) dates back to 1996, the standard lightening speed of Australian regulatory change ---."progress"???

Ain't it great to live in The Lucky Country.

Tootle pip!!

[Lookleft]

You are free to leave anytime you want- toodle pip!

[LeadSled]

You are free to leave anytime you want- toodle pip!
LL,
Typical stupid comment, probably based on gloriously determined ignorance, not to mention a consistently "CASA can do no wrong" prejudice --- but a constructive input is clearly beyond you.
Tootle pip!!

[wishiwasupthere]

Probably just sick of the holier than thou attitude that oozes out of every.......single.......post, folks.

Tootle Pip!

[Squawk7700]

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/411x357/a6dd0786_01fb_4807_b749_a6efa4d0eb95_6b0f6852f62f728aa2bb162 3c5dfe9dd83a780e0.jpeg

[BigPapi]

Probably just sick of the holier than thou attitude that oozes out of every.......single.......post, folks.

Tootle Pip!

Thank christ somebody said it, the constant holier than thou lecture posts addressing his grateful audience (Folks,) really do start to get tiresome.

Tootle Pip!!

[LeadSled]

Thank christ somebody said it, the constant holier than thou lecture posts addressing his grateful audience (Folks,) really do start to get tiresome.

Tootle Pip!!
BP at al,
Again, so typical of the AU aviation scene, play the man, not the ball.
Pity some of you haven't experienced GA outside Australia, to find out just how different the atmosphere can be, how much more pleasant.
Tootle pip!!

[BigPapi]

BP at al,
Again, so typical of the AU aviation scene, play the man, not the ball.
Pity some of you haven't experienced GA outside Australia, to find out just how different the atmosphere can be, how much more pleasant.
Tootle pip!!

I have no ball to play in this regard. I don't fly RAAus, and I don't intend to. I have no idea what the implications of an increase from in MTOW from 600 to 760 would be.

Your manner, however, on every single post you make, is condescending and rude to most concerned.

Tootle Pip!!

[Squawk7700]

LS, I can’t help but feel that you are hanging around aero club bars full of grumpy old men talking about the “good old” days, lamenting CASA and their big axe.

Since starting AusWebCams.com, one thing I’ve noticed when working with airport owners/operators and pilots is how POSITIVE the aviation scene is right now. Not a week will go by where I don’t hear from a group of passionate aviators who call me up wanting to install cameras at their airport. We’re taking vibrant clubs with a younger growing membership. You only have to look at the Australian YouTube scene, the Bush Flying groups on Facebook, the RA-Aus benefiting from a younger and more vibrant leadership, plus the huge STOL movement to know that Aviation is growing momentum and is a positive place to be in this country.

I don’t think I’ve read a single post on Facebook about a negative CASA experience.

What I have heard though, is pilots that do really dumb things usually get their just deserts. There was a pilot lost his license in court in Melbourne last week, but he had many pervious chances to clean up his act over the years, but chose not to.

[Piston_Broke]

LS, I can’t help but feel that you are hanging around aero club bars full of grumpy old men talking about the “good old” days, lamenting CASA and their big axe.

Yes, and the Australian forums here used to be called D&G Dunnunda and Godzone.

For a number of years now the GA forum thanks to some could be called the Doom & Gloom network.

[Sunfish]

The recent experience of Glen Buckley and the Forsyth review suggests that the grumpy old men are 100% correct.

[Lookleft]

I think the main problem with those who delight in delivering bad news to the readers of this forum is that they are suffering form severe relevance deprivation. They used to be big wheels in their respective fields and now have to constantly write about how bad Australian aviation is as "they are in the know about how the system works" The rest of us are ----wits, according to one of the wise sages because we know nothing and he knows all. Just look at the constant references in their posts. One bloke was a highly paid consultant to Government and Industry so his paranoid delusion about how aviation works in this country is the absolute truth. One bloke apparently was heavily involved with dealing with the Regulator in the nineties (almost 20 years ago) and is so knowledgeable about the world wide aviation scene that we should simply bow down before his condescension and accept that he, and only he, is the ultimate authority on the subject. Then there is Dick Smith- 'nuff said.

So all you happy pilots enjoying flying for the sheer joy of it and aviating to where you want to go, when you want to do it with whomever wants to join you, just remember that you are delusional at best and part of the conspiracy at worst.

[Cedrik]

LS, I can’t help but feel that you are hanging around aero club bars full of grumpy old men talking about the “good old” days, lamenting CASA and their big axe.

Since starting AusWebCams.com, one thing I’ve noticed when working with airport owners/operators and pilots is how POSITIVE the aviation scene is right now. Not a week will go by where I don’t hear from a group of passionate aviators who call me up wanting to install cameras at their airport. We’re taking vibrant clubs with a younger growing membership. You only have to look at the Australian YouTube scene, the Bush Flying groups on Facebook, the RA-Aus benefiting from a younger and more vibrant leadership, plus the huge STOL movement to know that Aviation is growing momentum and is a positive place to be in this country.
I don’t think I’ve read a single post on Facebook about a negative CASA experience.
What I have heard though, is pilots that do really dumb things usually get their just deserts. There was a pilot lost his license in court in Melbourne last week, but he had many pervious chances to clean up his act over the years, but chose not to.

If GA is going gangbusters then why is there no activity at most airfields? How long is it since you've heard an aircraft in rural areas? There was atime when if you walk outside you could hear an aircraft, now maybe a couple of times a year is about it. The only regular flying is Air Ambulance doing the taxi service and the odd fire machine in the summer. As for farcebook, not everybody is on it or wants to be. Talk to any GA pilot/operator and they will tell you what CASA is doing to GA. Remember the CASA moto "We're not happy till your not happy", pretty much sums it up.

[Piston_Broke]

If GA is going gangbusters then why is there no activity at most airfields?
Please direct us to the site(s) where the stats show "most airfields" have no activity.

Within about 100km radius of here - rural area - there are a number of aerodromes, most of which have reasonable levels of traffic particularly on weekends i.e. joy flights, training, transits etc. including gliding. During the week still activity, but reduced. In fact one of the aerodromes is about to undergo works funded by the council to upgrade it.

Talk to any GA pilot/operator and they will tell you what CASA is doing to GA.
Perhaps they might be readers of the Doom & Gloom network, or have spoken to others that are. Some people aren't happy unless they are griping about something.

In 40 years I haven't had any issues with CASA or its predecessors.

SAID HANRAHAN by John O'Brien (1878 - 1952) (http://www.middlemiss.org/lit/authors/obrienj/poetry/hanrahan.html)

[Cedrik]

I have been in GA for 40 years both as an operator and employee. The "Authority" used to be for aviation, seems the last 20 years or so it has degraded to proliferation of paperwork and enforcement.
You might be right about increased flying activity, I just saw what looked like a 172 flying locally, second time this year so things must be on the up and up :}

[Piston_Broke]

You might be right about increased flying activity, I just saw what looked like a 172 flying locally, second time this year so things must be on the up and up
There you go - a 100% increase in local traffic :ok:

[The name is Porter]

LS, I can’t help but feel that you are hanging around aero club bars full of grumpy old men talking about the “good old” days, lamenting CASA and their big axe. (The aeroclub bars are empty these days)

Hey Squawk, what good ole days would they be? I started flying in the late 80's, early 90's I remember Bankstown being so full of aircraft that you'd taxy around for 15 minutes looking for a park. The Tower was staffed properly and they used all 3 runways, learned lots in those days. Gees, if I remember correctly they'd have 10-12 in the training circuit? They 'gently reminded' you of how wide your circuit was if it was crap.

Since starting AusWebCams.com, one thing I’ve noticed when working with airport owners/operators and pilots is how POSITIVE the aviation scene is right now.

I reckon a fair whack of that is RAAus? And to be honest, that scene is pretty good and positive.

Not a week will go by where I don’t hear from a group of passionate aviators who call me up wanting to install cameras at their airport. We’re taking vibrant clubs with a younger growing membership.

That'd definitely be RAAus.

You only have to look at the Australian YouTube scene, the Bush Flying groups on Facebook, the RA-Aus benefiting from a younger and more vibrant leadership, plus the huge STOL movement to know that Aviation is growing momentum and is a positive place to be in this country.

Definitely RAAus the majority of that, especially the STOL?

Bit of a theme going on here?

As Glen continually says, all the GA industry wants is clear and concise, readable and understandable legislation. It's not. I do some Instructor Ratings, a fair amount of the course is taken up interpreting legislation. That should not be the case.

Sled is right, no matter what you think of his personality or his writing manner. Get out of this bubble, go to the States, when I first started flying there I had people literally toss me the keys to their aircraft for a fly. After I converted my licence and did the Flight Review my very first flight was ferrying a mates aircraft into Oshkosh, no-one sitting beside me to hold my hand. Couldn't have been simpler. There's no way I'd ask an overseas licenced pilot on their first solo flight into a Class D tower here.

For all of the garbage and exorbitant cost of 'safety' happening here, safety outcomes are no better, they're simply not. Our GA aviation is more similar to the US so EASA is not relevant here.

[LeadSled]

LS, I can’t help but feel that you are hanging around aero club bars full of grumpy old men talking about the “good old” days, lamenting CASA and their big axe.

Squawk7700,
What Aero Clubs?? ----- So many have gone, most of the rest hanging on by a thread, with little or no GA happening, opportunities outside of RAOz (except for big bucks "airline pilot" training) for training getting sparser and sparser, particularly in the country.
RACNSW long gone,
RQAC gone.
RNAC with big problems
and so on.

I would love to have the opportunity of a drink at the "cub", I am a member of one club valiantly trying to maintain its existence, the "bar" opens one evening a week, but it's three hours drive home.

[Horatio Leafblower]

I am seeing hugely inflated reports of airport activity in local government.
Dare I say it, deliberately fabricated and over-inflated claims.

The economic justification for the $23.5m Scone Airport upgrade, for example, is intentionally false.

RAAus is rather cock a'hoop at the moment but GA is moribund. The underlying reason for this is that CASA continues to provide RAAus pilots privileges (such as self-certified medical and PPL-qualified instructors) not afforded to Licenced pilots. Those above can Squark all they like about the AOPA vs RAAus rift but the underlying truth is that RAAus is seeking membership (and revenue) growth at the expense of other sectors of GA, and AOPA has called them on it. AOPA seeks greater freedom for ALL pilots but RAAus sees that as a competitive threat.

The tragedy is that AOPA should be an industry lobby group for all GA, but have been wedged by RAAus into defending themselves and their non-Sports membership against RAAus territorial aggression. RAAus is like China in GA's South China Sea.

BITRE statistics show a 25% drop in GA activity from 2002 to 2016. If you exclude RAAus numbers the total drop is even worse. Those who think GA is doing great are having themselves on and deliberately ignoring the evidence around them.

[kaz3g]

Four aircraft from SHEPPARTON went to Balranald via Swan Hill on Friday. Returned today.

Demanding trip up, especially last leg as we hit the front passing through (no rain, but plenty of dust). Great little town. Spent a couple of hours with volunteers who run the aviation museum. Full size replicas of Southern Cross and Lady Southern Cross plus many other things to see. Lots of interest from locals who made us feel very welcome.

Much more pleasant coming home with a bit of a tail wind part of the way. Cloud was developing along the way and it was so useful having cameras at Swan Hill, Kerang, Denny, Toc and Shepp to keep an eye on it.

Thanks Squawk and Co for setting these up...major safety improvement for all of us who fly.

[Lead Balloon]

Shhhhhhh about the cameras kaz! There are dark forces out there who have a view about CAR 120 and the use of images from those cameras in the planning, conduct and control of flights.

[Sunfish]

Shhhhhhh about the cameras kaz! There are dark forces out there a view about CAR 120 and the use of images from those cameras in the planning, conduct and control of flights.



...and the camera thing is apparently enabled by a business owned by someone here which might explain certain attitudes.

[Squawk7700]

...and the camera thing is apparently enabled by a business owned by someone here which might explain certain attitudes.

If “certain attitudes” is in reference to being positive about aviation in this country, then I am guilty as charged in your kangaroo court your honour!

[Lead Balloon]

Most of the (many) aerodromes I’ve flown in and out of over the last 3 decades are ghost towns compared to what they were in the 80s. The primary reasons for that are airport privatisation and over-regulation of ‘traditional’ GA. Those who’ve joined the exodus to fringe airstrips and various associations may be enjoying some milk and honey, but the exodus need not have happened in the first place.

[gchriste]

Most of the (many) aerodromes I’ve flown in and out of over the last 3 decades are ghost towns compared to what they were in the 80s. The primary reasons for that are airport privatisation and over-regulation of ‘traditional’ GA. Those who’ve joined the exodus to fringe airstrips and various associations may be enjoying some milk and honey, but the exodus need not have happened in the first place.


I think you have grossly over simplified things. In the 80s a large portion of the aircraft fleet would have been new or near new, just based on the statistics of the age of the current Australian fleet. New shiny toys that people were owning/renting/sharing, being flown and enjoyed. Fuel was possibly relatively cheaper etc. What has changed? The fleet is now old and largely unused, with the exception of the RAAus fleet which is newer and expanding as it is cheaper to get into.

Is it regulation or airport privatisation that has driven that? Partly yes, but who can afford to go and but a new plane these days to enjoy our hobby/profession, not me. Cirrus $500k-900k, Cessna C172 ~$450-500k. So we are left with an old aging fleet that possibly people just are not flying. Go to an aero club and you will see Jabiru, Tecnams etc around the circuit, some cessnas and not much more. The cost of the new aircraft is directly related to what Cessna or Cirrus are charging. Yes Australian regulations make it all the more costly, but is it really the $200+ ASIC and $300+ medical keeping you out of the sky, or just not wanting to rent/fly a 30 year old aging plane.

So is the reality that to continue flying the 20-30 year old Cessna 152 parked up on the grass, you need to get maintenance up to date, fix a few things, update the insurance etc etc, which people just can't be arsed doing, and no can afford to renew the fleet.

I think you will find that while the rental cost for a 172 is not great, the rental market, at least in our aero club, is doing ok. Its the wider cost that is the issue.

How many planes parked up under the covers on the grass, that have been there for ten years, will ever fly again. Not because of the regulation costs, ASIC, Medical, just because the owner doesnt have the will or means to do so.

Just my 2c

[Squawk7700]

Looking at some more recent aviation history.... Back a reasonable number of years ago, CASA introduced the LSA category. The biggest reason for this as per the initial whitepapers was to lower the cost of aircraft available for flying schools in order to keep flying schools profitable and to level the playing field with RA-Aus schools that were categorically booming at the time. GA schools were screaming very loudly about the flood of RA aircraft and schools available at a fraction of the cost of GA aircraft. LSA was a great idea as it allowed the lower cost “certification” of aircraft to enable GA flying schools to buy lower cost (including Australian made) aircraft.

You only have to look at the likes of Soar to see how successful this new approach was. Initially buying LSA Jabiru’s for sub $60k and then Foxbats for around $90k, to the point now of some 30+ aircraft at Moorabbin alone, including FoxBats, Vixens, Bristell’s and now Tecnams.

The side-effect of this however, appears to be bringing on the demise of the 172 for anything other than the big sausage factories such as Oxford.

Lets see what the long term future holds. The ratio of Rotax to Lycoming in GA may surprise many, particularly with LSA style 4 seaters with 115-150hp Turbo Rotaxes hitting the market now.

[mcoates]

I sat in an FAA/Rotax presentation at Oshkosh in the US about four years back and was very surprised to hear from the FAA men some of the industry statistics at the bottom end of the US aviation spectrum.

I was shocked to hear that there are more hours flown every year in the USA behind a Rotax engine than both Continental and Lycoming added together.

That is a pretty powerful statement and statistic about how many people have transitioned into the lower end of aviation markets.

One of the other great statistics that I remember taking in from this presentation was that the failure rate with Rotax engines was less than Continental and Lycoming.

[Lead Balloon]

I think you have grossly over simplified things. In the 80s a large portion of the aircraft fleet would have been new or near new, just based on the statistics of the age of the current Australian fleet. New shiny toys that people were owning/renting/sharing, being flown and enjoyed. Fuel was possibly relatively cheaper etc. What has changed? The fleet is now old and largely unused, with the exception of the RAAus fleet which is newer and expanding as it is cheaper to get into.

Is it regulation or airport privatisation that has driven that? Partly yes, but who can afford to go and but a new plane these days to enjoy our hobby/profession, not me. Cirrus $500k-900k, Cessna C172 ~$450-500k. So we are left with an old aging fleet that possibly people just are not flying. Go to an aero club and you will see Jabiru, Tecnams etc around the circuit, some cessnas and not much more. The cost of the new aircraft is directly related to what Cessna or Cirrus are charging. Yes Australian regulations make it all the more costly, but is it really the $200+ ASIC and $300+ medical keeping you out of the sky, or just not wanting to rent/fly a 30 year old aging plane.

So is the reality that to continue flying the 20-30 year old Cessna 152 parked up on the grass, you need to get maintenance up to date, fix a few things, update the insurance etc etc, which people just can't be arsed doing, and no can afford to renew the fleet.

I think you will find that while the rental cost for a 172 is not great, the rental market, at least in our aero club, is doing ok. Its the wider cost that is the issue.

How many planes parked up under the covers on the grass, that have been there for ten years, will ever fly again. Not because of the regulation costs, ASIC, Medical, just because the owner doesnt have the will or means to do so.

Just my 2cI think you’ve mixed up cause and effect.


If you think it’s easier and cheaper to get a medical certificate now than it was in 1980s, you obviously weren’t there. The ‘safety’ benefit of the complexity created by scaremongering amateurs? Nil. Outcome? Exodus out of activities requiring a medical certificate.

If you think it’s easier and cheaper to park an aircraft at a privatised airport now than it was at an airport in the 1980s, you obviously weren’t there. Outcome? Exodus of aircraft away from locations convenient for the owner.

The “cost” of ASIC requirements is not just the fee.

Look at a map of Avgas-available aerodromes from the 1980s compared with today.

There’s a reason people are not investing in new GA aircraft. The concept of light aircraft being a convenient means of transport - both private and commercial - to defeat the ‘tyranny of distance’ in Australia has been crushed by unnecessary complexity, cost and inconvenience.

[Piston_Broke]

The concept of light aircraft being a convenient means of transport - both private and commercial - to defeat the ‘tyranny of distance’ in Australia has been crushed by unnecessary complexity, cost and inconvenience.
More likely:

cheap airfares
increase in cost of housing, utilities, schools etc. and other drains on disposable income
improved road networks

[Lead Balloon]

So what is the current airfare from - say - Bourke to Bankstown? What was it in the 1980s?

[Lookleft]

Stupid question really. There is no airservice and never has been.

[Lead Balloon]

Stupid question really. There is no airservice and never has been.
Wow. So no commercial aircraft has ever flown a passenger from Bourke to Bankstown? Are you sure LL? Really sure?

[Awol57]

Are you asking about a charter or a RPT airfare?

[Lead Balloon]

As I can’t help but ask stupid questions, what were the categories of air service licence issued under ANR 191 in the 80s?

[Awol57]

Really I was just trying to sort out my searches, but my idle curiosity isn't that idle.

[Sunfish]

More likely:

cheap airfares
increase in cost of housing, utilities, schools etc. and other drains on disposable income
improved road networks



Bull*$##! The improved road networks simply take you to the capital city traffic jams and clogged suburban freeways. Furthermore, we are stuck with maximum speed limits of 110 kmh and concerted campaigns in some states to wind speed limits backwards to 80 kmh in many areas.

The cheap airfares only exist between capital cities - I think we currently have a government enquiry into the high cost of RPT flights to regional destinations and yes,

disposable income has not kept up with the increasing costs of over regulation of general aviation.

Don't even mention the train systems which are already overloaded and inconveniently timed for many country travelers.

My “commute” to Melbourne is now 3 hours, it used to be two and a half. Yet by air (C172) it’s 45 minutes to YMMB (by my experience​​​​​​) and probably 30 and twenty to Essendon and lilydale respectively.

If I put on my dreaming glasses for a minute, Melbourne could be served by Essendon to the North, Lilydale to the North East, Moorabbin to the South and Point Cook to the West. Then you would have a proper opportunity to match transport modes to destinations.

I think Sydney and Brisbane have similar issues. Contrast that with places like LA where flying from one side of the city to the other is an option.

Thanks to CASA over regulation, or perhaps deliberate choice by the department of transport and infrastructure, the Australian population is never going to get the chance to experience General Aviation as a competitor to other transport modes.

[Lead Balloon]

Really I was just trying to sort out my searches, but my idle curiosity isn't that idle.
Search for “Airlines of New South Wales” on Wikipedia and look at the list of “Destinations”, which includes “Bourke”.

And have a look at this: https://www.dailyliberal.com.au/story/6351494/regular-flights-to-return-to-western-nsw-skies-dubbo-to-be-a-hub/

There have been supplemental airline services / LCRPT and charter services to and from Bourke on and off for decades. There’s a reason they now have to be subsidised.

[buckshot1777]

The improved road networks simply take you to the capital city traffic jams and clogged suburban freeways.

The improved country road networks may indeed have motivated some to now choose to drive to some country destinations, rather than hire an aircraft and fly as they might have in the past. The appeal is a comfortable car, lower cost, the flexibility of visiting places of interest enroute, and have road transport at the end.

The cheap airfares only exist between capital cities

Speaking from experience, the family would much rather fly by airline in comfort to a destination e.g. MEL > BNE than be cooped up in a light aircraft for many more hours flying between the same locations.

Flying may appeal to we pilots, but its not something necessarily shared by all members of a family.

Melbourne could be served by Essendon to the North, Lilydale to the North East, Moorabbin to the South and Point Cook to the West. Then you would have a proper opportunity to match transport modes to destinations.

You would have the issue of road transport at the destination, unless you rent, use PT or make some other arrangement. I suspect that's why people choose to drive, despite capital city traffic congestion.

[aroa]

Not so stupid as Lookleft stupidly suggests. The current tyranny of distance COSTS !
For business, medical or any other reason a Burketown resident can expect this....
Savvanah Air chtr/rpt to Mt Isa. Not cheap .
Mt Isa to BNE. mega bucks.
BNE to SYD cheapo by Tiger, Virgin etc
Road or rail to Bankstown.$$.?
Hardly likely to happen in one day either depending on connections. And the cost would be more that a return economy class to Europe.!
If this BKTN resident is a pilot ,gone to Bankstown to pick up an aircraft, he can the sort out a way back, having to avoid derelect airfields with no fuel or businesses left. Fuel uplift on route will cost megabucks and the levy/GA tax still within now goes to general revenue instead of to 'support' poor casa who got it originally and have buggered GA in the process.

As Malcolm said ..Life wasnt meant to be easy. Or bureaucratized to death, either.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

AAAHH....,

The 'original' 2cents per litre levy, USED to pay for 'Flight Service', so I was informed many years ago.

'Flight Service'....dedicated to all those, who, can remember......apols to the old 'radio serial soapie, 'When a Girl Marries' Radio 2GB I think circa 1950...ish…..

When aircraft wuz either IN CTA - OR OUT!!!

RHS wuz supposed to get rid of this, so we were told so many many times, so that flying would 'cost us less'...and be 'safer'.....so far, I don't really think either has occurred...…

p.s. Thanks Dick for......
:}:

[wishiwasupthere]

Not so stupid as Lookleft stupidly suggests. The current tyranny of distance COSTS !
For business, medical or any other reason a Burketown resident can expect this....
Savvanah Air chtr/rpt to Mt Isa. Not cheap .
Mt Isa to BNE. mega bucks.
BNE to SYD cheapo by Tiger, Virgin etc
Road or rail to Bankstown.$$.?
Hardly likely to happen in one day either depending on connections. And the cost would be more that a return economy class to Europe.!
If this BKTN resident is a pilot ,gone to Bankstown to pick up an aircraft, he can the sort out a way back, having to avoid derelect airfields with no fuel or businesses left. Fuel uplift on route will cost megabucks and the levy/GA tax still within now goes to general revenue instead of to 'support' poor casa who got it originally and have buggered GA in the process.

As Malcolm said ..Life wasnt meant to be easy. Or bureaucratized to death, either.

I think you’ve got Bourke and Burketown confused...:confused:

[Lookleft]

Thanks for your references LB but i still don't see where there was a direct airservice from Bourke to Bankstown in the 80's or now. Air NSW might have flown to Bankstown in the 50's but Air NSW in the 80's flew into Mascot. So the stupidity of your question stands.

[Lead Balloon]

One of your very endearing features, LL, is your propensity to put the other foot in your mouth after being informed of the presence of the first there.

I said:So what is the current airfare from - say - Bourke to Bankstown? What was it in the 1980s?You said, in response:Stupid question really. There is no airservice and never has been.Are you sure that there has never been an airservice from Bourke to Bankstown, ever in the period from the 1980s to the present? Really sure? No one in that period could pay an airfare to be carried from Bourke to Bankstown?

[Lookleft]

And one of your less endearing features LB is to always be a pompous smart alec ex-CASA lawyer. Of course you went the lawyer path of asking a question that you already knew the answer to and of course you are alluding to the ability to charter an aircraft from anywhere to anywhere else. The evidence that you provided however,(from an authoritative source such as Wikipedia) simply stated Bourke as a destination for Air NSW but not that it had an airservice between Bourke and Bankstown. Your other source of evidence was a website to a blurb called the Liberal news, talking about a proposed airservice between Bourke and Dubbo from what I can tell.I have been around this industry long enough to know that there is always plenty of talk about airservices being provided but not a lot of shiny new aeroplanes actually doing the job. Don Kendell stated that the only reason he announced that his airline was getting the SAAB 2000 was for the publicity. So if you are going to put up evidence in the court of Pprune make sure it backs up the question that you are asking. So yes your question was and still is a stupid one.

On the issue of the tyranny of distance being able to support squadrons of light aircraft it never has and it never will. I agree with the statement that there is less activity than in the 80's but I think you will find that there is a lot less disposable income available and that a lot of people who might have taken up flying recreationaly simply don't have the money for it. Regulations and bureaucracy haven't helped but aviation is not unique in that. Don't forget that DS was railing against CASA and its predecessors 30 years ago for over-regulation. So if the burden of regulation existed then and it exists now what has changed that has led to the downturn in GA? In my view it is less demand for ad-hoc charter. The companies that did bank runs in the 80's also did charter. With technology bankruns are no longer required. Agribusiness is shrinking because of drought and rationalisation so there are less small landowners who might have used GA as a method of transport. Young pilots can get fee-help and learn to fly in the big schools in the cities. They then get instructing jobs and move onto bigger and better things. Very few young pilots that i come into contact with have had to go bush to get the hours to get into airlines. A lot of them go instructing then straight into regional where they get commands in 3-4 years then move to jets. Unheard of in the 80's and 90's. There is also the issue that has always been part of the Australian story is that most of the population lives within 50km of the coast. LCC have seen more of those people, including businessman simply hop on a jet to the Whitsundays or Cairns or the Gold Coast. Places that would have inspired people in the 80's to learn to fly and jump in a lighty.

[Vag277]

General Aviation – its own enemy?
“It was realised by the committee that expansion of the order of recent years could not continue indefinitely and that some form of consolidation would finally hit the industry. This has indeed been most general throughout Australia and it appears to have affected the eastern States more than WA. There is a need for new thinking and the industry, during the next years or so, will no doubt witness substantial changes.”

Many contributors here suggest that the downturn in GA has its genesis in the actions of governments and commercial enterprises and the resulting increase in costs and loss of facilities. These concerns also included what has become almost a tradition in GA – the statement that it was all better in the days of DCA and Sir Donald Anderson.
I believe that it is time that GA joined the beginning of the 21st century and stopped languishing in the middle of the 20th. Government policies, public expectations, the economy and business effectiveness have changed. Unfortunately, a culture within GA of blaming everyone else for the effects of these changes is blinding us to what we must do to catch up.

First, let’s understand the significance today of the era of DCA and Sir Donald Anderson. Over the period of Anderson’s tenure as Director General, (1956-1973) there are some aviation and significant non-aviation factors that need to be considered:

· the country as a whole was emerging from the economic effects of a global war.
· regional infrastructure (including sealed roads) was limited and motor vehicles were only just beginning to approach the comfort and capability we enjoy today.
· the Australian aircraft fleet grew from 903 aircraft to approximately 4,000. Today there are in the vicinity of 18,000 when the RA-Aus fleet is included.
· unemployment from 1940 to 1970 was between 1%-3%
· the share of Gross Domestic Product from mining went from 50% to 70% with attendant growth in air travel to remote areas
· the proportion of GDP from agriculture declined from nearly 20% to less than 5%

In 1959 the Parliament passed a Bill allowing the granting of leases for businesses on airports. This was intended to ensure some economic return on the funds invested in airport development. It was also a continuation of the cost recovery process begun in 1947 when airways charges were introduced for the first time.

By the end of the sixties things were beginning to change even more. The Federal Government announced that after several years of discussing the issue, the flying training subsidy scheme would be closed down. This had been in place in various forms since 1924. The subsidies were introduced to encourage the early development of the industry, then to support military training and then again to support growth in the post war period.

With the removal of the restrictions on training arising from funding eligibility rules and the creation of a level (although perhaps uneconomic) playing field the number of flying schools began to increase beyond the former aero club group of 43 with 177 aircraft. The records of the aero clubs at the time reflect concern over considerable loss of earnings as a result of the loss of the subsidised training of commercial pilots and many were recording financial losses.

Since the early 1970s there have been many more changes in the world in which we live and operate. A succession of governments, from both sides of politics, have identified public support (or at least only fractured opposition) to the concept of cost recovery for, and privatisation of, a huge range of services and facilities. These were previously accepted as the responsibility of government with funding coming from the entire tax paying public. However, Australian society was changing, the economy had blossomed and individuals who had not seen economic depression – the baby boomers- were flexing their political and economic muscles.

One of the most significant changes was the dramatically increasing range of choice in almost all aspects of life. This could be perceived as the start of a new world for general aviation. It is possible that understanding and dealing with such changes is the key to success in general aviation.

With this increase in choice, together with increasing disposable incomes, marketing of opportunities to buy new experiences has blossomed. Whether they be in domestic or international travel, sports cars, extreme adventure sports or substantial mortgages, marketing has become critical. Despite the marketing of almost anything appearing everywhere we look, when did you last see an advertisement of any sort for flying training or aircraft charter outside an aviation magazine or tourist brochure rack? It is a fundamental rule of any business selling a product, that no one will buy the product if they don’t know what it is or where to find it.

People with businesses in general aviation regularly lay blame for their parlous economic state on government, the regulator, big business or any other target of opportunity. Sure, better roads, better motor cars, airfares lower than ever dreamed of in the ‘70s and several years of drought have had dramatic impacts on many parts of GA. In some cases those reductions in activity might be irrecoverable because what displaced them is cheaper and more convenient. Despite this, there are general aviation businesses that are succeeding and growing. The fleet of aircraft, which grew from 900 to 4,000 in the Anderson/DCA era of 17 years, has grown to around 18,000 in the subsequent 30 years and people still learn to fly.

GA might be succeeding in spite of itself. When was the last time the participants in industry worked together to:
· identify and quantify credibly the contribution the sector makes to the economy and community well being?
· promote aviation as a challenging, rewarding and enjoyable recreation?
· create an impression of being a well organised, professional and enthusiastic group?
It is unlikely that we will see sustained and widespread improvement if we do not understand and penetrate the market represented by the entire population of what is a very prosperous country.

To provide some credence to these ideas, the quote at the beginning came from the annual report of the Royal Aero Club of WA in 1967-68.
Bibliography
Ayris, C.Wings of Chamge Royal Aero Club of Western Australia, Perth 1999
http://www.casa.gov.au/casadata/register/graph.htm
http://www.treasury.gov.au/documents/110/PDF/round3.pdf
Parnell, P. & Boughton, T. Flypast AGPS Press , Canberra 1988

[Squawk7700]

9 new weather cameras just set up for 4 new locations, to go in the post tomorrow.

Aviation is far from dead in this country!

[Sunfish]

Vag277, the bit that is left out of your excellent summary is that it neglects the emergence and potential growth of new light aviation markets while concentrating on the “traditional “ markets, such as pure regional transport which it is argued, are in decline due to better roads, etc. They may well be but what about new markets?

To put that another way, you argue that there is increased choice and competition for disposable income. Correct, but where are the competitive aviation products that should be emerging here in competition as they are overseas?

For example: transport for hunting/fishing/hiking/skiing parties? Aerial sightseeing? Aerial taxi/commute services? Aerial food and wine touring? Aerial camping/safaris/touring? Air parks - residential. Medical services by air. Computer services by air. Business services by air. There must be more!

The answer is that over regulation of aviation in Australia prevents this form of business investment and the jobs and the taxation revenue and the economic growth. Just go to the US or NZ to see what I mean!

[Lookleft]

There is an emerging aviation market in Australia that is regulated by CASA and that is the increasing use of drones. Already there are food delivery services in Canberra. The missing ingredient for a lot of what has been listed is consumers. America has multiple times the number that Australia has. Fishing, hunting skiing trips? Honestly who is going to spend that money to go heliskiing in Australia. NZ and Alaska have much more inaccessible wilderness than here. Regulation is a part of the issue but not the only barrier to the sort of aviation activities referred to.

[The name is Porter]

9 new weather cameras just set up for 4 new locations, to go in the post tomorrow.

Aviation is far from dead in this country!

Hahahaha, that's the criteria is it??

[Squawk7700]

Hahahaha, that's the criteria is it??

It’s certainly a positive sign.

Moreso that it’s mostly GA aero clubs and that if you believe the tripe here posted by the old guard, they have all supposedly already closed up!

[Horatio Leafblower]

Regulation is a part of the issue but not the only barrier to the sort of aviation activities referred to.

Lookleft
CASA has spent a fortune persecuting and prosecuting Air Tour operators against the stupid interpretation of CAR 206. The best example is the Direct Air/Polar decision in Darwin where CASA decided that a charter flight in a C310 or a Navajo was "RPT" simply by virtue of the fact it ran frequently enough to be deemed "regular" and the fact that anyone could jump on a seat. The fact that the passengers were all traveling as a group to participate in an indigenous art tour was immaterial to the Courts.

The CASA decision was overturned in the AAT by Ergon Fice (an ex Mirage driver) in a rather creative re-interpretation, which was of course itself overturned on appeal.

Similar stupidity and CASA Dogma has dogged operators such as Heron Airlines and Silver City Scenics, shutting down tourism and aviation for fear of falling foul of numb-skull rules.
If I own a bus company I can buy 70 tickets to Shania Twain or Andre bloody Rieu, advertise the f*ck out of it, and fill the coach full of screaming Matrons keen for a night out.

Can't do the same on an aircraft. That's RPT.

How many BILLIONS in lost tourism dollars have been lost, how much economic growth has been denied to our regional towns, simply because of this one stupid dogmatic rule?

How much capital investment did we have to make as aircraft owners on early ADS-B implementation, ensuring our technology is twice as expensive as that used in NZ and the USA to achieve the same or lesser outcomes? To add insult to injury, the FAA and now the NZ CAA are SUBSIDISING the installations (to the tune of $2500 in NZ).

How much could have been spent on fleet renewal, fleet refurbishment, or marketing effort had we not been forced to spend that?

Vag227

Let me congratulate you on an excellent post. I especially like the final para:
GA might be succeeding in spite of itself. When was the last time the participants in industry worked together to:
· identify and quantify credibly the contribution the sector makes to the economy and community well being?
· promote aviation as a challenging, rewarding and enjoyable recreation?
· create an impression of being a well organised, professional and enthusiastic group?
It is unlikely that we will see sustained and widespread improvement if we do not understand and penetrate the market represented by the entire population of what is a very prosperous country.

I for one would like to see the warring egos in RAAus and AOPA come together and re-jig that relationship to the ultimate benefit of ALL PILOTS IN AUSTRALIA. As implied by the OP - United we stand, Divided we fall.

[Pinky the pilot]

I for one would like to see the warring egos in RAAus and AOPA come together and re-jig that relationship to the ultimate benefit of ALL PILOTS IN AUSTRALIA. As implied by the OP - United we stand, Divided we fall.

Indeed, Horatio. :ok: Either we all hang together or we shall all surely hang separately!:sad:

It really is time for the GA Community in all its forms to unite under one banner/organisation/whatever to fight the out of control authoritarian monster that CASA has become. :mad:

Only problem is how! And that solution is totally out of my league.

You got any suggestions, Dick Smith? A genuine question BTW. You have the contacts that few others have.

[Vag277]

I think that in the rush to blame CASA and the government for declining GA activity, people are not aware of the general populace attitude. They know nothing of CASA, regard small aeroplanes as annoying noise makers that could crash into their houses and as rate payers do not want to pay for local aerodromes. They see no value or benefit. They nearly all live in coastal suburbia so see no impact other than perceived nuisance. Blaming CASA will never overcome those issues. Only the industry and aviators can do that.

As an aside, what is the total national market value of all recreational water craft compared to light aircraft?