Union Action

[Flybygirl]

Personally I think the union action being talked about is disgraceful.

Why?
-The economy is suffering already without added strain on those who are struggling which would be the case if there was any action
-Unemployment in HK is at the highest rate ever to be thinking about making good salaries and benefits even better
-The threat of redundancies within CX is not gone, pilots costs growing will only increase the chances of redundancy measures
-38% support for a union leader is hardly convincing, and the majority are not in favour of further industrial action.

Finally, if those pilots are so unhappy then why don't they leave? These unhappy ones do not reflect the majority, so go back to Aus, NZ, Canada, States, Sth Africa, U.K., or somewhere else in HK if you are from HK.

Everyone is sick of this annual event.

[nudger]

*

[mole]

I reproduce this for the benefit of flybygirl and the other girl pilot shortly. You both need to understand the strength of feeling that some of our people have. I am not saying that I totally agree with these views but I do think you need to read them as I assume you do not have access to the AOA web site.

"I too hope that we can resolve this dispute without such drastic measures but am beginning to believe that severe industrial action is our only hope.

12 months ago the company tried to intimidate me and my family by firing 51 people. What they succeeded in doing was to turn a moderate wife into a militant one who was so disgusted by mgt's behaviour that she is willing to move heaven and earth to ensure they do not get away with it.

I am afraid I am at a loss to understand the political position of Phil and his supporters. We are all a little scared, we are all certainly a little tired and frustrated. But to believe the same people who fired 51 colleagues are capable of genuine negotiation, to give them the benefit of the doubt, to honestly believe that a well-intentioned chat will have any impact at all, is more naive than I thought possible.

I spoke to the wife of a 49er a few weeks ago who was feeling pretty isolated and was worried about the upcoming election and the fact that Phil and his supporters on CPRUNE seemed more concerned about their "secure" jobs than they did about the plight of her family. I promised her that there were many more people in the AOA who would see this though and make sure her family regained their security and future. I promised her I would NEVER give up and would continue to fight for her family with the same determination as I would my own.

I stand by that promise. If that means we have to strike, then we strike...at least we will be able to sleep with a clear conscience knowing that we did everything humanly possible to keep our word, our dignity and our promise."

[shortly]

Mole, you do it mate, go for it strike and see what happens. One of the non issues in all this, do the pilot body realise that 56% or so of the employees at CX earn less than 10 000 HKD a month? No other benefits, no housing etc. Your salaries seem obscene to these people, let alone the other conditions. Your support base is shrinking fast. I don't care what others think, I hear you say well in that case I say an early goodbye. That burst before still doesn't answer the question - why do we have 51 martyrs to union ineptitude?

[middle]

Flybygirl.

The two candidates opposing Nigel, standing on the "peace at all cost ticket" got even less support! Thats the nature of democracy.

By the way, A Cathay Pacific director has stated on news radio here in HK that the "Ban" is stopping "good" pilots from joining CX but that the pilots ignoring the ban and joining were "adequate". Thanks Tony.

[Flybygirl]

Nudger, forget the company what about the effect on the local economy.

All you can say is how much CX made, you obviously feel they owe you something because they made money. Well that is between you and the company.

What is a bigger picture issue is the effect on those innocent ones who are hurt by CX when pax and cargo are inconsistently delivered to and from HK.

If the CX Pilot community wishes to be a part of the HK community then they should think about the long term as well as short term effects on others and not just themselves.

[CCA]

That's a lovely attitude flybygirl, if you ever get fired I expect you to do nothing as it might effect me and you wouldn't want that would you !

[Flybygirl]

CCA despite the poor economy the union had commenced industrial action before anyone was fired. I think you need to get your facts straight.

You are implying that the action is a result of the sackings.

If you had a better attitude you would be more community minded, but since you choose to have selective memory that is your issue to deal with.

[FlexibleResponse]

Actually the 56% or so of the employees at CX who earn less than 10 000 HKD a month and no other benefits, are watching very closely how the management are treating the pilots and how the management are reneging on the pilots' contracts.

This year the 56% have already had their 13th month salary taken off them by management.

The 56% also know that if the pilots are done over by a meglomaniac management, then there is absolutely no hope at all for any of the members of the remaining Cathay unions.

[Obsolete Observer]

Its also worth remembering that this 56% saw the bulk of the 2,000 sackings/redundancies during the last slowdown:(

[nudger]

*

[shortly]

OK so there were some redundancies in CX and affiliated companies a while ago. But still very complimentary to CX management that they publicly stated, and kept their word, that no-one would be laid off after 9/11. Other airlines are still laying folk off, gardening leave etc. CX management accepted the fact that poor bottom line was acceptable for up to two years before they would do anything to the workforce. That sort of attitude engenders support and they have it. You don't like CX middle management, especially FOPS. When the call came out for volunteers for these positions did you apply? No of course you didn't, too comfortable. It is said you get the management and politicians you deserve - aint that the truth. And you have got it. Please don't rabbit on about the 49ers, different issue all together, their situation was caused by union ineptitude not CX mis-management. That CX action was regrettable but thoroughly understandable. The only hope has gone and that was a new union executive. Stalwart of you to show such support for ND and co. However the company are chuckling now with ND still at the reins. No reason to talk is there.

[CCA]

flybygirl is it OK with you to to hold industrial action when the "local economy is doing well".

Also why didn't you quote;
If the CX management community wishes to be a part of the HK community then they should think about the long term as well as short term effects on others and not just themselves.
They have the power to end this just as the pilots do.

[The Rip]

Too Little too late,

64% voting for Nigel is not enough, it shows how much ppl have lost faith in the direction the Union is going.

Strike? I dont think so, some of you guys are living in your own fantasy world. If there is a strike ballot, ask yourself this...are you willing??? It should have been done a year ago. This is now another desperate attempt to make an impact on the public b4 more ppl leave the union. Get real its not gonna happen the majority of guys dont have the guts, when it comes down to the day you have to choose. You guys should wake up and smeel the coffee. and stop your denial of the truth. if wot the Union has done is correct then why has so many ppl left? you can Rip into wot I am saying but the truth is the truth and it dosent matter wot you say but all you need to see is the union is built on support and if you dont have support then you are not representing the big majority of pilots therefore you are not doing the right thing for the pilots.

:mad:

[Fuzzy]

Why do you people continue to discuss this.

It is obviously a management wind-up.

[middle]

The RIP,

One more time for those who don't understand democracy.

Nigels share of the vote increased

The voter turnout increased

The other two candidates added together didn't add up to Nigels vote

So if we stick to principals of democracy Nigel has a mandate , in fact he gets overwhelming support for his past policies and the so called silent majority that the management posters on this forum keep talking about dissappear.

The result of the vote is hardly surprising because Nigel and the GC were carrying out policies that the membership wanted!

Some questions, I don't know the answers but it would be fun to know.

In the UK how many people entitled to vote in the general election?
How many did vote?
how many voted for Blair?

Same for Bush in the USA.

I suspect that Nigel got a bigger mandate from his constituents than either of those two!

This doesnt change the fact that the membership now have to sh@t or get off the pot! I most certainly agree with that.

As I have stated before, I voted for Phil but am more than happy to do what it takes to defend my union either on this forum or against cx management.

(I'm off to bed)

[middle]

So I've done some surfing and the results..
In the UK General Election of 2001.


The turnout was 59.4% of the people entitled to vote.
Of those votes cast Blair received 40.7% of the vote.

Take a thousand people entitled to vote in the UK Election.

1000 people entitled to vote
594 people voted
241 people voted for Blair
759 people didn't vote or voted for someone else.
For every one person that voted for Mr. Blair, 3.1 didn't

Blair is the Prime Minister of one of the worlds bastions of democracy, and rightly so. (Leaving Politics aside!)


Lets take the AOA membership.
Again taking the same thousand people.

1000 people entitled to vote
788 people voted
497 people voted for Nigel
503 people didn't vote or voted for someone else

Lets take the ALL the pilots in CX ( 1660, I think) because I know a lot of you will start screaming if I don't.

1000 people could have voted ( had they been in the AOA)
546 people voted
345 people voted for Nigel
654 people didn't vote or voted for someone else.

For every one person that voted for Nigel, 1.9 didn't vote or voted against. If you criticize this, well remember the two candidates standing against Nigel combined did worse!

Nigels share of the vote went up remember.


So lets just say that Nigel has more right to represent my UNION than Mr. Blair has to represent the people of the UK. Is everyone in the UK that didn't vote for Mr. Blair rushing in to renounce his or her citizenship? No the people of the UK have spoken and the system in the UK accepts that, as well as the governments of other countries.


Mr. Blair has a cabinet and an opposition to help him make the right decisions. Nigel has the same in the shape of his General Committee. The committee has widely varying views and so Nigel despite having a far larger mandate than Mr. Blair will have a harder job getting everything his own way.


I am sorry if this has bored a few of you but the usual management and anti AOA rhetoric has tried to insinuate that the election wasn't representative. Well I think I have shown that democracy isn't perfect but it works, and it works very well at the HKAOA.

So, moan away all you want, but don't tell me Nigel isn't the legitimate president of the HKAOA and that the policies don't represent the memberships wishes.

It's up to the members now.

(I'm off to bed)

[Obsolete Observer]

I agree with fuzzy........wind up!:rolleyes:

[shortly]

Who cares what the poms do? Who cares if they vote for a characterless, used car salesman. That's just their psyche, can't blame them really. Who else could they have voted for? The relevance in comparison to our situation here leaves some to the imagination. Why don't you do the US elections to, Bush or Clinton - in each case they did not get a majority of people in their favour, some mandate. Are you just proving that all elections are a farce and we get the leaders we deserve?

[HotDog]

Nigel is a pom, John Findlay is a pom, Nick Rhodes is a pom, Turnbull is a pom and the greatest of them all is Graeme Ogilvie, who I hear is slated to "run" Air Hong Kong once more.:rolleyes:

[shortly]

Yikes, not a good time to join AHK then. The problem was they were such a happy little organisation, can't have that now can we lol.

[VR-HFX]

Petition for Rodders!

[shortly]

I agree with HFX, Rodders is a gent and would be a breath of fresh air compared to the other guy.

[HotDog]

I'll second that!

[Obsolete Observer]

Anthing to keep a Zim in a job......:p

[Trader]

FLYBYGIRL- by your standards you would never see a strike in any industry because it adversly affects people outside of the company. By your standards employees across the globe should work for a pittance so that no one else suffers.

Sorry, your living in a dream world.

[shortly]

FLYBYGIRL is right, in this regard in particular, there is a bigger picture here that appears to be being totally ignored. The bigger picture is that the AOA is on a course of self destruction at the moment. It is slowly but certainly imploding. I am not a believer in straight statistics but the numbers in this case are a bit scary for all of us. AOA membership significantly down, a large group of pilots not even allowed to join the AOA and the financial burden on the AOA remains constant and might increase if litigation becomes involved. A management strategy might be to take the AOA to court for losses incurred by union action, this has been successfully done in much more liberal places than Hong Kong. There is a place for unions in this day and age and who will represent the pilots when the AOA fails completely. I have urged the AOA leadership for a long time to accept that this battle is lost. Stop all industrial action, change the people involved in negotiation and get back to the table. Gosh, as a gesture maybe some of the 49ers might come home as a result. There will be other times where the hope of a better outcome is more assured. I feel dreadfully sorry for all the 49ers, loyal martyrs to union ineptitude, but at this rate unless things change NONE of them will ever work again at CX.

[shortly]

No Plastique in this you are wrong. Aircrew have for eternity demonstrated their naivety and lack of business acumen when involved in industrial disputes. Get the best deal you can through negotiation, demonstrate your absolute necessity to a good bottom line, and then negotiate again. There are no winners in a fight but always one loses worst.

[Plastique]

You invest a fortune getting trained (time and/or money), get you hours up, progress up the ranks, and then take the moral high ground with ideas that others put in your head, and suddenly your out on your ear.

Industrial action brings out the worst in everybody and things can get ugly real quick. Hong Kong is not a democracy, it is not a job for life (all you can be sure of is the next 3 months).:rolleyes:

The current situation is laughable, the tactics are straight out of a primary school playground.

The Union is still trying to posture, still trying to justify their existance and high cost.

As it stands I imagine that CX will try to keep the status quo, and allow the AOA to decline.
I mean really, 1 year on the union are trying to sue my colleagues for the additional subs, in a year where many of our colleagues were relying on big tax loans to cover the 13th month which didn't happen.
The big hitters in the union are professional unionists, who have their own agenda and will happily abandon HK if and when they get the settlement they think we want, and work for the highest bidder elsewhere.
The rhetoric Finlay comes out with is unreal.

As time goes on I'm getting more and more cynical, and I'm starting to recognise a different agenda.

I just hope that more of our (impressionable) colleagues don't get lead on a road to selfdestruction to be sacrificed to further other peoples agendas.

[shortly]

Agree that there are hard liners polluting the atmosphere. Other than vindictiveness on behalf of one union official I doubt they have the naus for a hidden agenda. Management must have really smiled when the status quo was retained after the last election. AOA leadership have promised;
1. All 49ers back at work, and
2. Everything finished in 11 months now.
The only way for the AOA to force anything is to seriously ramp up industrial action. When the majority renege on that it will give demery and co an 'honourable' way out - and they will take it.

[middle]

All reference to Muppets removed.

OK Ladies and Gentlemen, in deference to your late colleague please keep all references to the 49ers. polite and relevant, regardless of your point of view. Thank you.

BlueEagle - Moderator.

[boofta]

The problem remains inept management of the Airline & AOA.
The company management created the impasse by inaction, many
years of screwing staff created short term profit, ignoring real
change, most rostering still done with a pencil twisted in an anus
with the resultant mess flicked onto the master roster board.
The AOA committee unable to communicate with itself, stop the
delusion! they want a settlement as much as the 49er's, get rid
of the ban, it has only achieved hardship and guaranteed no talk.
Scores of ex Ansett pilots have been interviewed, most of them already black listed by IFALPA, what is the ban achieving? one
thing only, the continued unemployment of the 49er's.

[middle]

Thanks Blue Eagle, apology accepted Plastique.

[PeterZee]

"late colleagues"?!

Perhaps words could be chosen a tad more carefully. With the sad exception of Mr. England I believe the rest of the 49'ers are still alive and kicking. Unemployed, unfortunately, but let's not get carried away. Or is "late" a British/Aussie term for fired/sacked I'm unaware of? If so... as you were...:rolleyes:

[HotDog]

Ananova:

Cathay Pacific - no plans to talk to pilots if industrial action threatened

Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd (293.HK) has no plans to negotiate with its pilots' union while management is under the threat of industrial action, chairman James Hughes-Hallett said.

In a news conference on the company's interim results, Hughes-Hallett said management has always been willing to talk "but not under threat of industrial action, which is happening now."

He said urging other airline pilots not to seek employment with Cathay Pacific is considered to be a form of industrial action.

On whether fresh threats by the union to resume industrial action if the management does not return to the negotiating table by Oct 9 will affect its operations, he said: "I don't think so. The Hong Kong travelling public is accustomed to Cathay Pacific and its operational efficiency."

He said Cathay Pacific was able to record good results in the first half, not only due to improved demand but also due to the tremendous cooperation of staff, both ground and air.

The carrier reported six months to June net profit of 1.412 billion hkd from 1.319 billion the previous year.

[BlueEagle]

PeterZee, suggest you visit your optician before you next jump onto your keyboard.

If you bother to read my post you will see that, quite deliberately, I used the singular, 'colleague' - not the plural, as you suggest. I was refering to a particular person who has, tragically, died and whose memory should not be besmirched anywhere but particularly here on PPRuNe.

You are so typical of so many clowns we get on PPRuNe who either don't bother to read a post or don't bother to read a thread and then jump in anyway with a whole load of nonsense.

Hope you feel better when you wake up and it has worn off.


BlueEagle - Moderator.

[Plastique]

Agreed, and for the record I do have sympathy for the 49ers, but unless there is a major change in the upper echelons I don't expect them to be back flying at CX.

I guess there's too much 'face' to be lost on both sides.

Things got out of hand quicker than expected last July (on both sides) and I don't think anyone expected what happened.

It's tough to be out of work in these challenging times, ironically CX are one of the few outfits actually making money, and in a position to recruit flight deck crew.

I just wonder in hindsight how many of the 49ers were really prepared to make the huge sacrifice the ultimately made.:(

[PeterZee]

A hissy fit for Blue Eagle?

It was precisely the disrespect you mention that I was trying to address - I did fail to notice the singular (oh what a difference an "s" makes)....if you "bother"(ed) to read my post, does it make more sense to you in that context? Or was it just too hard to resist the opportunity to pontificate?

Since you get the really wide brush out to start painting me as a "typical clown", allow me to repay the favour and say you sound like a typical Brit, seizing upon an opportunity to huff and sniff about how "you" have to deal with the likes of me, who misread a post and replied under an incorrect premise...horrors...tut tut

I understand you're retired, maybe use the time to take the Dale Carnegie refresher...

:p

Dale Carnegie Stress Management Course (http://www.dale-carnegie.com/M10/M10S2-25.htm)

[6feetunder]

Even I noticed BE is from Oz!

[shortly]

Doesn't mean he is not a retread, not that it matters where you are from. I think both of you have got a bit 'hot under the collar' a bit quickly. Relax guys and back to the point.

[VR-HFX]

Plastique

Yes it is about face but what is even sadder is that they are still the pawns and that is why their future remains so bleak.

As long as the AOA continues to send IA smoke signals, why would the company not continue to let the AOA suffer financially and the membership continue to be diluted.

This thing may have now gone on too long for the 49ers to have another look-in.

If the AOA leadership does care about them, then they must make a concerted attempt to eat some humble pie and do whatever it takes to get a hearing.

If showing the other cheek meets with another whack in the face then you will see a far more united pilot body and that is what the company does worry about.

[shortly]

Good post again HFX, you are absolutely correct. The AOA must take a stance which completely stops all industrial action, including the ban and try to get back to the table. It is my unfortunate opinion that few of the 49ers will now be re-employed. I guess that is the sticking point now as ND and co have promised them their jobs back. The company is run and controlled by accountants who only understand immediate bottom lines. We all know that with a compliant and flexible aircrew body that bottom line will look pretty good pretty fast. That's surely the way to go, show how invaluable we can be to PROFIT and then next time we are at the table we will have a bargaining chip. Most of the middle/senior managers have never been at CX when the pilots were really trying to help so they have no idea of what we are capable - show them for a while and then talk again. Yes they just might take advantage again but we have little more to lose. The last thing we all want is a new contract shoved down our throats, cos it won't be a nice one.

[middle]

PZ

I'm with BE on this one mate. YOU screwed up and a look back through your posts does suggest a tendency to type before thinking. The "Brit" remark being typical of your thinking (or lack of). Your post was being pedantic about the use of the plural where in fact the singular was used. So you cant have it both ways me old.:confused:
Oh and please describe a "Typical" Brit.

[ironbutt57]

"moderators".....:rolleyes: :confused:

[shortly]

OK you want it, of course depends on which Continent you have been screwed by poms, fat white skinned bloke with a big red nose who whinges all the time and can't see trees for the forest (pedantic about trivia). Come get me lol.

[middle]

And there you have it folks. Shortly who has put forward many arguments on this forum shows his level of mentality and maturity in a nutshell.

You were right BE. Clowns.

[Traffic]

Shortly old son! Haven't you seen BBC World lately?

Sorry to be pedantic, but the correct expression is POHM not pom...as in Prisoner of His/Her Majesty.

On a lighter note, I once saw a T-shirt duel at a bar in New Caledonia. First night some Aussie blokes had T-shirts that said 'Go Home Pommie Bastards'. Not to outdone a friend of mine and his wife (who was no shrinking violet...a sister of Tommie Taylor of West Ham fame) had some T-shirts made up for the next evening to proclaim...'Go Home Bastard Pommies'.

Let's keep things at standard QNH please.

[shortly]

I thought it was POME Prisoner of Mother England and related to turks in particular. Never could understand why English people are themselves called poms by aussies. Great story Traffic, would like to meet that shelagh she sounds a blast. Middle, get a life mate remember you are what you eat.

[BlueEagle]

And on those happy notes, how about we return to the topic please?

Thanks.

BE - Mod.

[VR-HFX]

You mean that oxymoron at the head of the page??

[FlexibleResponse]

How do we measure stabilisation of the economy?
Does this mean waiting until the Company is making normal (abnormal) profits again? Isn't that the current situation?

Why would management bother to negotiate if the pilot's put off industrial action?
What possible motivation would there be for management to negotiate away the gains they have made?
Would it make good business sense?
Didn't the pilots drop all action last October and the management walked out after the first and only meeting?

[middle]

Bingo! ( and I'm not your mate, mate)

[PeterZee]

middle

Hey thanks for taking the time to read through all of my previous posts and come up with that thoughtful and insightful analysis of the pedantry contained therein. I'd hate to think that in reality all you were doing was furthering the previously mentioned stereotype! lol

As far as getting back to the topic it's hard to talk about union action when there isn't any!!

Clown, out!

:D